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With last week’s enshrinement of the class of 2008 to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio, we thought it would be a good chance now to look ahead to Super Bowl weekend, when they will annouce the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame class.
First, we thought we’d look back at the last couple of finalist lists, to see how many have been carrying over, and how many typically drop. In 2007, the finalist list looked like this:
Inductees
Gene Hickerson, G (fourth year as finalist)
Michael Irvin, WR (third year as finalist)
Bruce Matthews, OL (first year of eligibility)
Charlie Sanders, TE (first year as finalist)
Thurman Thomas, RB (second year as finalist)
Roger Wehrli, CB (second year as finalist)
Other Finalists
Fred Dean, DE
Richard Dent, DE
LC Greenwood, DE
Russ Grimm, G
Ray Guy, P
Bob Kuechenberg, G
Art Monk, WR
Andre Reed, WR
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner
Derrick Thomas, LB
Andre Tippett, LB
Gary Zimmerman, T
Now, looking at the 2008 list of finalists, we see that almost everyone from the 2007 list made the cut again:
Inductees
Fred Dean, DE (second year as finalist, 18th year eligible)
Darrell Green, CB (first year of eligability)
Art Monk, WR (eighth year as finalist, 8th year eligible)
Emmitt Thomas, CB (first year as finalist, 25th year eligible, senior candidate)
Andre Tippett, LB (second year as finalist, 10th year eligible)
Gary Zimmerman, T (fifth year as finalist, 6th year eligible)
Other Finalists
Cris Carter, WR (1st year eligible)
Richard Dent, DE (6th year eligible)
Marshall Goldberg, Back (46th year eligible)
Randy Gradishar, LB (20th year eligible)
Russ Grimm, G (12th year eligible)
Ray Guy, P (17th year eligible)
Bob Kuechenberg, G (19th year eligible)
Randall McDaniel, G (2nd year eligible)
Andre Reed, WR (3rd year eligible)
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner (contributor, no specific eligibility)
Derrick Thomas, LB (4th year eligible)
So the only 2007 finalist to fall off the list in 2008 was DE LC Greenwood.
Other semi-finalists in 2008 were Terrell Davis, Dermontti Dawson, Kevin Greene, Charles Haley, Lester Hayes, Rickey Jackson, Joe Jacoby, Cortez Kennedy, Ken Stabler, Steve Tasker and George Young.
First year eligibles in 2009 will be Jesse Amrstead, Trace Armstrong, Larry Centers, Marvin Jones, Mo Lewis, Ed McCaffery, Brian Mitchell, John Randle, Bill Romanowski, Shannon Sharpe, Bruce Smith, Aeneas Williams and Rod Woodson. If we’ve forgotten any, let us know.
One change for the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame class will be that a minimum of four, and maximum of seven players may be inducted–up from three and six.
So who will make the cut?
Well, from the first time eligible list, Bruce Smith, Shannon Sharpe, John Randle, Rod Woodson and Brian Mitchell appear to be the cream of the crop (”Mitchell?!?” you cry? “2nd in All-Time total yardage in NFL history,” I reply), and have a shot at making the finalist list.
From the 2008 Semi-finalist list, Dermontti Dawson, Charles Haley, and George Young seem to be most likely to make the finalist cut.
Only problem? Assuming everyone from the 2008 Finalist list makes it back in 2009 (other than Randy Gradishar, who is now 25 years removed and would be considered by the senior committee), that’s eight new guys for only six spots.
Of those eight, we’d guess that the most likely to move on would be Smith, Sharpe, Woodson, Randle, Dawson, and Haley. So that gives us a finalist list that looks like this:
2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame Finalist List:
Cris Carter, WR
Dermontti Dawson, C
Richard Dent, DE
Russ Grimm, G
Ray Guy, P
Charles Haley, DE
Bob Kuechenberg, G
Randall McDaniel, G
John Randle, DT
Andre Reed, WR
Shannon Sharpe, TE
Bruce Smith, DE
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner
Derrick Thomas, LB
Rod Woodson, DB
(Plus the two other senior nominees)
As for the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame enshrinees…(as voted on by ZoneBlitz.com)
Cris Carter, WR – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins - Surprising he didn’t make it in his first year, some felt that voters wanted Monk to get in before Carter. Not sure why, either–Carter had the better career, although he never did get to a Super Bowl. But with Carter’s numbers, they can’t keep him out long.
Randall McDaniel, G – 1988-1999 Minnesota Vikings, 2000-01 Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Personally, I thought it was ridiculous that he wasn’t even a finalist in his first year eligible, much less that he didn’t get in that year or last. If he doesn’t get in this year, the whole process needs revamping. And yet, with Kuechenberg and Grimm on the list, there is that possibility–but McDaniel was the better player during his career, with 12 Pro Bowls and nine All-Pro selections.
Shannon Sharpe, TE - 1990-1999, 2002-2003 Denver Broncos, 2000-2001 Baltimore Ravens - This is one of the tougher calls on the list, as Tight End is a thin position at the Hall, with only seven enshrinees. Still, Sharpe led the way in redefining the position, won three Super Bowls, and was the all-time leader among TE in catches (815), yards (10,060) and TDs (62) when he retired. Those are tough numbers to ignore.
Bruce Smith, DE - 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000-2003 Washington Redskins - The most likely of the first year players to make it, even though he may have hung on for a year or two longer than some thought he should. Smith finished with 200 career sacks, the most in NFL history.
Derrick Thomas, LB – 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs - Some look at Thomas as a one-dimensional player, ignoring the run while rushing the passer. But Thomas was a nine time Pro Bowl selection, three time All-Pro selection, had 642 career tackles, and 126.5 sacks. Those are hall worthy numbers, and he should finally make it this year.
And one (or two) senior committee nominee–historically, at least one of the senior nominees has gotten in each year since they went to two back in 2004–and 2008 was just the second time that only one of the two nominees got in. It could very easily be a case where, with the new limit of seven inductees that two get in again. Marshall Goldberg was the first senior nominee to have been nominated twice and not be elected either time–so he, along with Bob Hayes, Jerry Kramer, Willie Galimore, Lou Rymkus, Mac Speedie, Lou Creekmur, and Ole Haugsrud are some possible names on the senior committee’s list.
We almost included Bob Kuechenberg on the list of 2009 enshrinees, as there is a recent trend of at least one guy who is nearing the end of his “modern player” status (retired for more than 5, but less than 25 years) getting in (see Fred Dean, Roger Wehrli), but in the end, his momentum recently seems to be headed the wrong way. We also could very easily see the committee choose NOT to have a full slate of seven inductees in the first year they can, just because it seems like something they might do–although the last three years have had the full six spots filled, the two years prior only had four inductees each year.
So how did we do? Leave us your thoughts on the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame class in the comments below…
65 Responses to “2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame Inductees”
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joey lockhart 10August2008
kevin greene 160 career sacks, 5 pro bowls, 3 time all-pro
1st in sacks as a linebacker, good guy
Tony Parslow 16August2008
You did ok but I say so what if guys like D. Thomas. K. Greene, and R. Dent were one dimensional. All became very important to the game. Ever heard of a relief pitcher? And so what if a guy plays too long? Except for running backs a HOF player should have 10 excellent years over his career.
The guys on your list are all good HOF choices but for 2009 I would pick - Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson, Richard Dent,Cris Carter, and definetly Bob Kuchenberg.
Kuchenberg with HOF’ers Little and Langer consistently blew open huge holes in the line for Csonka,Kiick, and Morris to charge threw on there way to 3 straight Super Bowls. There’s no way Grimm goes in over Kuchenberg!!
You forgot to sure fire HOF players who are eligible this year in Darren Woodson and Richmond Webb. Webb might get in in his 1st year but I doubt it.
Tony 16August2008
Webb was eligible this year, actually. He should have a shot at some point, but if he gets in before McDaniel, it’s a travesty. Darren Woodson is eligible for the first time in 2009, but I don’t think there’s any way he makes it–maybe a semifinalist, but probably not a finalist. Solid career for sure, but not enough up against some of these guys.
Kevin Greene is an interesting choice–I didn’t realize that he had those numbers. Dent also has better numbers than I would have given him credit for.
We didn’t say Kuechenberg doesn’t deserve it–we’re just not sure that enough voters agree.
I am starting to think seven guys get in this year–I’ve read some more on the classes coming up in 2010-1013, and I think the voters will want to clear up some of these guys before they get to those classes.
Mike 17August2008
Andre Reed appears to be getting the Art Monk treatment. Andre accumulated huge numbers (over 950 receptions) on a team that had many superstars (Thurman Thomas, James Lofton, Eric Moulds to name a few, so the ball was spread around), and played huge in the games that counted. He was just as important as Michael Irvin and had better career stats. I agree he wasn’t a first ballot guy, but this is his third year and should go in with Bruce, just like Green and Monk this year.
Mike 17August2008
My list would bein order:
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Shannon Sharpe
4. Cris Carter
5. Andre Reed
6. Randall McDaniel
7. Kevin Greene
There are just too many worthy players at this time. Ray Guy is the best punter of all time and should be in. Derrick Thomas and Richard Dent should get in at the end of their eligibility. I really don’t think there are any senior committee people that deserve to be in over these modern players other than “The Human Howitzer” Tomy Latone, but he never gets nominated.
1925 NFL CHAMPIONS POTTSVILLE MAROONS
Billy 19August2008
I agree that over the next couple of years the choices are tough, but I believe there are still cut and dry Hall of famers that should get in. Here is my list.
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Chris Carter
4. Lester hayes
5. Richard Dent
6. Randall McDaniel
7. Jerry Kramer
Smith and Woodson are automatic. Carter needs to get in before Reed who also belongs soon, 130 touchdowns is too many to just sit on the ballot. Dent belongs in with teammates Hampton and Singletaty, and then the best Defense of the Eighties will be properly represented. Hayes was Deion before Deion. He was the best shutdown corner in the leagues outside of his temmate Haynes (who is in) in the early eighties late seventies. McDaniel gets the nod over Grimm and Kuchenberg, barely. Kramer should have been in long ago. Creekmur is already in the hall.
Billy 20August2008
Players you don’t think about but, will end up in the Hall some day.
1. Chris Doleman- 151 career sacks, always played with other good players but does not get the credit he deserves.
2. Coy Bacon- Exceptional pass rusher befor they were so en vouge.
3. Henry Ellard- Over 1300 career receiveing yards, great third down receiver.
4. Stanley Morgan- Look at the yards per reception (19.0) He was better than Bob Hayes.
5. Phil Simms- Great Leader, Over 33,000 passing yards, 199 TD’s. Super Bowl winning QB.
6. Richmond Webb- Was a ferocius gaurd who kept Marino upright.
7. Ben Coates- Was better than Dave Kasper. Bruising TE should get in after Sharpe.
Gary 20August2008
Brian Mitchell. Should be a shoe-in. If you don’t think so, then you either were not paying attention to the NFL in the 90s or you just need to do some research.
Tony 20August2008
Well, Gary, that’s your opinion, and you’re welcome to it. I paid attention to the NFL in the 90’s, and I researched Mitchell’s stats–and while I think he has a shot to get in at some point, I would be shocked if he got in on the first try.
You may have noticed above that I listed Mitchell as one of the top players in this year’s rookie class, and he will likely be a sem-finalist. I didn’t have him making the finalist round, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility.
But, bottom line, he was a specialist–he didn’t see the field for more than what, 25% of his teams plays, if that, in a game? And yes, he’s #2 in all-time yardage–but of his 23,330 total yards, over half (14,014) came on plays where he had about 100 yards ahead of him, and had a 10-20 yards of open space before he was touched.
So I think he deserves some consideration–but I think there are a lot of people more deserving than him that will get in before him.
Billy 21August2008
The Bottom line is Brian Mitchell was a return man and a 3rd down back. If that type of player gets into the Hall of Fame he has to be “electric.” I’m not Sure he fits that category. Even though he has all that yardage, others before him have failed to get in with a similar type role, i.e. Billy “White Shoes” Johnson, Desmond Howard, Dave Meggett, ETC.
Some Day if Devin Hester or Dante Hall get into the HOF, people might look at Brian Mitchell differently.
Teo 21August2008
Aeneas Williams will be eligible until 2010, but I believe he should make it in his firts or second year.
joeydee 21August2008
Steve Tasker deserves to get in before Brian Mitchell.
Tasker revolutionized his position of Special Teams player. Led the league in S Teams tackles several years. Even though he was ALWAYS double & triple teamed. Blocked several kicks & punts. Even returned a few when neccesary. Consistantly made the Pro Bowl at a position where only 1 is named to each team. Was the Pro Bowl MVP as a S Team guy! Jim Kelly claims to this day he would have been a Pro Bowl caliber receiver if he wasn’t so valuable to S Teams. Kelly every year would beg the coaches to allow Tasker to play more receiver.
He should be the next Special Teamer to get in the Hall… ahead of Ray Guy.
Billy 22August2008
Here is the only problem with a guy like Tasker. Even though he was the best at what he did for seven or eight years, it will begin to set a precedent for a gut who was on the field for roughly 6-8% of his teams plays. Even with the blocked kicks and punts and the occasional recovery or bone jarring hit. He was responsible for 2 or 3 big plats a year. Does this then entile Larry Izzo or Sam Aiken to have HOF thoughts? I agree that Steve Tasker wa a great special teamer. You cannot throw in the “what if Levy let him play more at wr”argument when talking HOF. That is like saying what if Renaldo Nehmiah had hands. He would have caught 25 touchdowns a year… or what if Bo Jackson had stayed healthy… what if Hershel Walker had never played in the USFL. The point is either you accomplshed something special over a length of time or you didn’t. IF Tasker ends up getting in, which is OK with me, there are many more special teamers that belong in.
Billy 22August2008
I watched an NFL network show on the 1980 Raiders due to the passing of Gene Upshaw. After watching, I have an even greater appreciation for Lester Hayes. I always new about the stick-um he was lathered in, but I did not know about his severe speech impediment. Kudos to him for not letting it affect his play or his ability to be interviewed. I also noticed how he got nose to nose with the receiver on the line of scrimmage on just about every down and he still didn’t get beat deep often. Lets hope “The Judge” gets voted to the Hall this coming year. RIP Gene Upshaw the NFL will miss you.
Billy 22August2008
Before Aneas Williams Gets in, here is my lsit of DB’s who need to get in first:
1. Rod Woodson
2. Lester Hayes
3. Ken Riley- How is 65 interceptions not in the Hall?
4. Donnie Shell
5. Steve Atwater
6. Deron Cherry
d knight 25August2008
Harvey Martin = Co Super Bowl MVP, ProBowler and Cowboys all time sack leader, He actually had 23 sack in 77 but sacks were not an official stat at that time. He is truly the All Time single season sack leader.
Billy 27August2008
Harvey Martin had a very good career but would you put him in over Ed “Too Tall” Jones.
James 27August2008
Hello guys,
RE:Tasker
Surely its what you do when you are on the field - how you influence games, rather than the time you spend on it?
For this reason i think Tasker should go in
thomas 28August2008
Yes,I am a Raider homer. Raider fans always bring up the names of Stabler, Guy & Plunkett. But how in the world does Lester Hayes always get overlooked? (Please no more comparisons to Deion). The 8 & 10 yard cushions you see today? Forget about it. It was man to man & in your face for a 60 minute war and that’s all there is to it. But don’t let me try to make the case for Lester alone. The voters should just ask hall of famer Steve Largent his opinion on Lester and they will be unveiling his bust as early as 2009.
Billy 28August2008
I am not a Raider homer, and I fully agree that Hayes should get in the Hall in 2009. He and Rod Woodson should both go in.
As far as Tasker goes, you need to look at the complete list of the players that were on the Ballot and all the great players that are not in the Hall. Tasker is way, way down that list. In fact there are Bills like, Andre Reed, Cornelius Bennett, Kent Hull, Jim Jeffcoat and sure thing Bruce Smith, that all need to get in before Tasker. I would even say Darryl Talley is more Hall worthy than Tasker.
Billy 28August2008
What do People Think about Rickey Jackson getting into the HOF with all his personal problems as a dead Beat Dad?
Tony 28August2008
I’d say Tasker is above Darryl Talley. I would have no problem with Hayes getting in based on his stats, although I would think he would be in by now if he were going to get in the traditional way. I don’t think Rickey Jackson’s problems as a dead beat dad would hinder his chances–I don’t think he was likely to get in in the first place.
Billy 28August2008
I would put Brian Mitchell, and Eric Metcalf in as special Teamers before Tasker. I do think Rickey Jackson will end up in the HOF he had 134 sacks in his career which I believe is 4th alltime for linebackers plus a superbowlring and we know how the voters feel about that.
Tony 28August2008
Mitchell for sure. Metcalf I’m not sure about. Jackson would be a tough sell for me–never been a finalist for the HOF, played on a lot of bad teams in New Orleans (and only got the SB by being a role player in SF late in his career–might not carry as much weight), and in his most productive years (later in career), wasn’t even the team leader in sacks. He never ranked higher than 9th for sacks in a season, and was never an All-Pro.
At some point, they have to draw the line and say “That’s a nice career, but it’s not Hall worthy”–and I have a feeling that Jackson is on the “Not Hall Worthy” side of the fence.
Just a guess, though–I’ve been wrong before (once or twice).
Billy 29August2008
You might be right on Jackson, but is his career much different than Tippett’s. Tippett had two dominating years. Jackson had many excellent seasons and always played with other good linebackers. His teams won more games than Tippet’s as well. I’m still having a hard time with the sell on Mitchell. He picked up so, so many yards before there was a player anywhere near him. And for all the returns he had, shouldn’t he have had more touchdowns!
How do people feel about senior nominees Bob Hays and Claude Humphrey?
Tony 29August2008
Both Hayes and Humphrey were before my time, so I can only go on the stats–I’d say both have borderline stats to get in, although I’m guessing Hayes’ are more impressive when time era he played in is considered.
I wouldn’t have a problem with either getting in–but I avoided trying to guess too much as to who the senior committee might nominate. They’ve been historically…all over the board, in my opinion.
Billy 2September2008
After looking at the QB’s already in the Hall, Why do think the three overlooked Qb’s of the 80’s don’t get in (Simms, Esiason, Cunningham)? Compare them to QB’s Like Moon and Kelly.
Teo 2September2008
I’m happy that Claude Humphrey was one of the Seniors nominees, he should have been inducted years ago, he was (after Elvin Bethea, Carl Eller and Jack Youngblood) one of the best DE’s of the seventies.
Billy 3September2008
I agree with Ted about Humphrey. I think he fits the designation of a HOFamer, better than Hays does. He was truly a difference maker on the line. I think he is on par with Bethea as DE. just a notch below Eller.
His Biggest Fan 6September2008
Are we forgetting someone? Albert Lewis…He picked off 38 passes in 11 seasons and recovered 9 fumbles. Pro Bowl every ear from 1987 to 1990. Along with his 38 interceptions for Kansas City he had 5.5 sacks, blocking 10 punts during his Chiefs’ career, and played in 150 games for the Chiefs before becoming a free agent in 1994. Recently inducted to the Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame and the Kansas City Chiefs’ Hall of Fame…..
Billy 8September2008
Albert Lewis had a very good career, but his teammate Deron Cherry belongs in before him. I know they played different positions but he has to wait in line behind some other corners. I would rate him in this order
1. Rod Woodson
2. Lester Hayes
3. Raymond Clayborn
4. Albert Lewis
5. Louis Wright
Vincent 9September2008
Ken Riley should be a shoe-in for the NFL Hall of Fame. What a football player, teams avoided him for years during football career. He still ended up with 65 career interceptions.
Billy 10September2008
I am a Ken Riley fan as well, but for whatever reason he does not get much consideration. I think the same thing that is going to happen with Claude Humphrey is going to happen for him. Once he goes to the Senior commitee he will get in. I think this will happen with Randy Gradishar and eventually for Bob Kuchenberg as well.
Billy 10September2008
This is the All-Time underrated team:
1. Lester Hayes CB Raiders
2. Phil Simms QB Giants
3. Stanley Morgan WR Patriots
4. Harold Jackson WR Eagles, Rams
5. Richmond Webb T Dolphins
6. Ben Coates TE Patriots
7. Deron Cherry S Chiefs
8. Randy Gradishar LB Broncos
9. Todd Christensen TE Raiders
10. Coy Bacon DE Reskins
11. Harvey Martin DE Cowboys
12. Ottis Anderson RB Giants
13. Ken Riley DB Bengels
14. Chris Doleman DE Vikings
15. Henry Ellard WR Rams
16. L.C Greenwood DE Steelers
All of these players are HOF Caliber. If you don’t believe me check out the stats. Most of them played in the SuperBowl and some won in the Super Bowl. There are even a couple that won multiple Super Bowls. The HOF would be incomplete without these players being inducted some day. Hopefully the voters see the importance of thses players to their teams, cities and the NFL.
Tony Parslow 20September2008
Stats lie for some players like the wide receivers of the old days. Some player that I veiw as great and needing strong consideration are Issac Curtis - Cinncy, Mel Gray - St.Louis, and Harold Jackson - Philly/LA, Harold Carmichael, Cliff Branch - Oakland and Drew Pearson - Dallas. I think can make an argument for all against some that have made it to HOF. Also Kenny Anderson of Cinncy was near the top of the 70’s QB’s. Sentimentally I like Jim Plunkett but doubt he’ll ever out live his miserable early days in New England. He turned out to be a winner and fun to watch.
Persnally, I wouldn’t put Andre Reed - Buffalo in HOF for a long time. Tough call but is a guy great because he catches a jillian 7 yard passes across the middle? I don’t think big numbers equal greatness in every case as we move forward. There’s are going to be more and more guys that don’t make it with big numbers in our era pass craziness. Kind of like baseball and homeruns.
Billy 22September2008
Tony you make a valid point for some of the former WR’s Jackson, Carmichael, Branch, etc. However Andre Reed should be in the HOF. He was durable, moved the chains, had great hands and he blocked very well for T. Thomas. He was also a winner.
Kenny Anderden is one of the Best QB’s not in the HOF (along with Simms), but How come Esiason never gets any love?
bachslunch 2October2008
Where to begin?
1. am pretty sure Aeneas Williams isn’t eligible until next year.
2. would be very surprised if Rod Woodson does not get in on his first try. His “first team all pro/pro bowl” numbers are 6/11, very high numbers for his position, plus he was an excellent kick returner and had a hugely long career.
3. Brian Mitchell, for better or worse, won’t likely fare any better in HoF consideration than any other player whose primary case comes via special teams. I doubt he’ll ever get in.
4. Shannon Sharpe will almost certainly get elected, but after a few years waiting — note well that no TE has ever been elected in their first year of eligibility.
5. Derrick Thomas will likely get in over the next few years, but making him wait is not unreasonable given that he had a reputation (despite being an excellent pass rusher) as weak against the run and in pass coverage. HoF electors seem to prefer LBs with more complete skill sets for membership.
6. it’s not necessarily a crime that Cris Carter was made to wait a year (or maybe two, who knows?). Only four WRs (Steve Largent, Lance Alworth, Ray Berry, and Paul Warfield) have ever been first year eligible electees. He’ll get in soon enough.
7. agreed with Tony Parslow that Harold Jackson, Harold Carmichael,and Cliff Branch should be in the HoF. Isaac Curtis is not an unreasonable option either, though I think his numbers are just a shade below these other folks. Drew Pearson should also be in, but he’s now only Seniors eligible. The biggest problem here is that they’re all in a logjam and are probably canceling each other out. Also think Kenny Anderson is the best QB not in the HoF and should be in as well — his stats are better than Kenny Stabler’s and way, way better than Jim Plunkett’s. Also agree that Andre Reed will either make it in very late in his candidacy or not at all, as people will compare him to Cris Carter, Jerry Rice, and Tim Brown, who all have stats that are better than his — though I think Reed belongs as well.
More to come.
bachslunch 2October2008
More thoughts:
1. have definite doubts about the hall-worthiness of Richard Dent. If he got in, his “1st team all pro/pro bowl” numbers of 1/4 would be even worse that Fred Dean’s (2/4), and Dean is easily the weakest DL in the HoF. Dent also had a reputation of taking plays off, which hurts his case further. When L.C. Greenwood (2/6) and Gene Brito (4/5), not to mention Joe Klecko (2/4), Mark Gastineau (4/5), and Fred Smerlas (2/5) have been found wanting, it’s harder yet to justify putting Dent in ahead of all of them.
2. given how hard it’s been to get Randall McDaniel and Dermontti Dawson into the HoF, I’d think Richmond Webb’s chances are slim to none. Webb will also be measured against OTs like Jonathan Ogden and William Roaf, who will surely get in first, and be in competition with the next level of OT down, such as Walter Jones and Orlando Pace, who may or may not get in, and Tony Boselli, who probably won’t make it either.
3. Bob Kuechenberg has a 2/6 profile, which puts him behind other OGs with better such numbers already in (Larry Little, Tom Mack, John Hannah, Joe DeLameilleure, and Gene Upshaw). He may or may not get in on his last shot this year, but if he doesn’t, that’s likely the reason.
4. fair or not, Darren Woodson will likely sit in a logjam with other safeties not in (Leroy Butler, Steve Atwater, Joey Browner, Kenny Easley). The last of these probably has the strongest case despite his short career, but pure safeties seem to have a tough time of it in general — only 7 are in.
5. Kevin Greene, Charles Haley, and Rickey Jackson likely have the best shot of any LBs of the 80s-90s still not in. Their all pro/pro bowl numbers are comparable, and actually similar to a host of others, including Sam Mills, Cornelius Bennett, Karl Mecklenberg, Chris Spielman, Clay Matthews, and Wilbur Marshall. Greene’s appearance on the all 90s team (only Bennett has a similar distinction) may be just enough to set him apart. Might be another logjam — hard to say here.
6. some people say Ray Guy was the best punter of all time. Aside from posting wiki entries, citing the collegiate Ray Guy award, talking about his hitting the Superdome roof speaker with a punt, and saying that John Madden backs his candidacy (and similar nebulous things), would like to see a good argument full of tangibles that supports this notion. Note that some who don’t support his candidacy say he had too many touchbacks and not enough coffin corner pins, others cite his placing 62nd on the all time yards per punt average listing. Others of course won’t vote for a punter at all, saying they only factor into about 6 plays per game, which isn’t a lot of input.
7. am sympathetic to some of Billy’s mentioned players but not all. Coy Bacon has a 0/3 postseason profile which is way too low, especially since L.C. Greenwood (2/6) isn’t in either. Can’t see Phil Simms in ahead of Kenny Anderson, who has much better stats. And can’t see Stanley Morgan ahead of Harold Carmichael, Drew Pearson, Henry Ellard, Cliff Branch, Isaac Bruce, et. al. Ben Coates is a reasonable choice at TE, and can get behind Chris Doleman, though his weakness against the run may keep him out. Henry Ellard probably should be in too, but he’ll likely (and unfairly) get forgotten about.
bachslunch 2October2008
And a few more:
1. same goes for Harvey Martin (1/4 postseason profile) as the other DLs not in yet. Not enough to set him apart here.
2. given that Roger Wehrli (4/7) didn’t make it in until his last year of eligibility, that may bode poorly for Lester Hayes (2/5) — hard to say.
3. problems with Ken Riley’s case include only one 1st team all pro selection and zero pro bowls. Note that Lemar Parrish (3/8, and a fine KR) isn’t in either and would appear to have a notably stronger case. Nor for that matter is Lester Hayes. And having lots of INTs can indicate things such as being thrown on a lot or taking lots of risks, which is a not a good thing for a DB. Given that Parrish (who was Riley’s CB teammate) had only half the INTs Riley had, does this mean QBs threw at Riley and avoided Parrish, and if so, what does that say here? Good question.
4. here’s another thing to consider re Steve Tasker. What about accomplished special teamers who played prior to the time such folks routinely got all pro consideration (everyone from Alex Hawkins to Lou Piccone to Bill Bates to Ron Wolfley to Fredd Young)? How do you rank them in relation to Tasker? Who gets in and who doesn’t?
5. am glad Claude Humphrey is nominated as a Senior. He’s arguably the best DL not in (4/6 postseason profile, which is better than Greenwood, for starters).
6. Rickey Jackson’s status as a deadbeat dad should not affect his candidacy. The Pro Football HoF explicitly states that non-football related matters have no bearing on HoF worth.
7. Bob Hayes is a bubble candidate who may or may not get in. In his favor, he was a HoF level WR for 3 years and very good for 3 more, was a fine KR, and has an excellent yards per catch ratio. Not in his favor, he was not good in the postseason (which likely lifted in another bubble candidate, Lynn Swann), his career was short, and he apparently had trouble elevating his game when defenses started paying a lot of attention to him. Can see cases for and against him, though it’s not unreasonable to consider him. Please note that he was not the first WR to bring blazing speed into football (see Ray Renfro and Harlon Hill, for two) and the zone defense was not created to stop him (this dates from the 1950s, as does double coverage).
Billy 3October2008
Bachlunch- It is nice to see the intelligence and the ability to back your claims. Well done. I would like you to take another look at both Phil Simms and Stanley Morgan a lilt more closeley compared with others who are in and other who “rank” ahead of them. I agrre totally on Tasker. You didn’t mention Ottis Anderson or Randy Gradishar. Do you think they will ever get in, Veterans commitee or otherwise?
bachslunch 5October2008
Billy, thanks for the feedback.
1. it’s actually my error to compare Stanley Morgan to guys like Harold Carmichael and Harold Jackson, who are earlier, and Isaac Bruce, who’s much later. Morgan’s actually not as unreasonable an option compared to his peers as I’d thought — he’s not so far off from folks like Henry Ellard, who’s not in and probably should be, and not as far below Steve Largent and James Lofton, who are in, and I’d thought. Okay, mea culpa on that one.
2. the problem with QBs and RBs is that they would appear to have the deepest representation by position in the HoF in relation to their numbers on field. It’s the problem that one faces when arguing in favor of Charley Conerly, John Brodie, John Hadl, Jack Kemp, Ken Stabler, Boomer Esiason, Jim Plunkett, and yes, Phil Simms. Where does the line get drawn? There are already a fair number of QBs in for each era. Ken Anderson’s stats would seem sufficiently above the rest (taking era into account) that he’s probably got the best case of anyone not in (Simms is later chronologically and I’m thinking more correctly compared to folks like Montata, Kelly, Elway, and Marino). Similar problem for RBs, and unfortunately, Ottis Anderson would seem to be where the line got drawn by the voters. Somebody’s got to be the best at his position not in the HoF. I don’t think either gets in.
3. Randy Gradishar is in a logjam with a bunch of other worthy LBs from the ’50s through ’70s not in. His 3/7 postseason profile is very good, but approached or exceeded by others, contemporary and earlier: Chris Hanburger (3/9), Maxie Baughan (3/9), Robert Brazile (5/7), Isiah Robertson (3/6), Chuck Howley (5/6), Joe Fortunato (3/5), and Bill Forester (4/4), not to mention others who sometimes get touted such as Tommy Nobis (1/5), Lee Roy Jordan (1/5), Dave Robinson (3/4), Andy Russell (1/7), Bill Bergey (2/5), and Les Richter (1/8). Gradishar is not on an all decade team either, while Brazile, Fortunato, Robinson, and Nobis are. I think most of them (including Gradishar) should be in, especially since LBs, particularly corner LBs and non-middle inside LBs, are woefully underrepresented in the HoF. Hard to say on this one if he makes it in or not, but I hope he does.
Billy 6October2008
Yeah it looks like Gradishar might have to wait in line for a veterans comitte nomination. I would rank him 4th at LB behind Hanburger, Brazile and Howley. Bergey is a personel favorite of mine but I don’t think he ever goes. I think you may be right on Anderson and Simms. I think both of them would need the Vet committee help, but it looks like that could be a logjam for years.
Carmine 9October2008
I think that the HOF definately snubs former Jets players. Gastineau and Klecko are Hall Of fame caliber for sure, but the HOF committee seems to be very biased towards not voting for former Jets. Mark Gastineau was one of the greatest DE’s to ever play the game. And Joe Klecko was an all-time great too, but he’s so low profile that no one outside of the Jets fan base knows who he is. I also think that Derrick Thomas needs to be in the Hall as well.
bachslunch 12October2008
In order to determine if there’s any bias against legit NY Jets HoF candidates, we’d need to compile a list of names. About the only two I can see are Joe Klecko and Mark Gastineau (if you’re feeling really, really generous, maybe Winston Hill). And both Klecko (2/4) and Gastineau (4/5) have relatively short postseason honor numbers, in a logjam with Fred Smerlas (2/5) and Ed “Too Tall” Jones (2/3). Logjams like this are not rare (’50s-’60s DBs, ’60s-’70s LBs, ’70s WRs, ’80s-’90s safeties, ’90s LBs) and frequently result with no one in the group getting elected.
It’s not true that “no one outside of the Jets fan base” knows who Joe Klecko is. HoF committee member Dr. Z has vociferously stated his support for Klecko for the HoF in a couple of his Sports Illustrated articles.
There are no shortage of teams who can claim the HoF snubbing crown: Green Bay Packers (definitely Lavie Dilweg, Verne Lewellen, Billy Howton, and Bobby Dillon, perhaps Jerry Kramer, Sterling Sharpe, Dave Robinson, and Bill Forester), Dallas Cowboys (definitely Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson, perhaps Bob Hayes, Lee Roy Jordan, Charles Haley, and Darren Woodson), Kansas City Chiefs (definitely Nick Lowery, Derrick Thomas, Johnny Robinson, and Jim Tyrer, perhaps Ed Budde, Jerrell Wilson, Deron Cherry, and Otis Taylor), Washington Redskins (definitely Chris Hanburger and Gene Brito, perhaps Jerry Smith), Denver Broncos (definitely Randy Gradishar and Steve Atwater, perhaps Floyd Little, Rich Jackson, and Louis Wright), San Francisco 49ers (definitely Billy Wilson, Abe Woodson, and Tommy Davis, perhaps Haley again), Los Angeles Rams (definitely Harold Jackson, Henry Ellard, Riley Matheson, and Maxie Baughan, perhaps Les Richter and Isiah Robertson), Philadelphia Eagles (Baughan again, as well as Harold Carmichael and Pete Retzlaff, perhaps Bill Bergey), Minnesota Vikings (definitely Mick Tingelhoff and Chris Doleman, maybe Joey Browner). Who’s the winner (or loser) here? I’m not sure it’s the Jets.
bachslunch 12October2008
Sorry — under the “snubbing” crown race for Washington, add Russ Grimm and maybe Joe Jacoby.
Billy 13October2008
other snubbs from those teams mentioned:
Broncos- Karl Mecklenburg DE
Dennis Smith S
Redskins- Gary Clark WR
Mark May OL
49ers- Roger Craig RB
Eagles & Falcons- Claude Humphrey DE
Vikings- Jim Marshall DE
bachslunch 13October2008
Billy, thanks for the other names. Claude Humphrey is most definitely an unfortunate snub, though he’s probably more Falcon than Eagle. Also, he’s up as a Senior candidate, and I think rightly so, and I’d guess he’ll get in this time around. I’d have to go with Roger Craig (and Rickey Watters, for that matter) in the maybe category at best, given their stats.
Having more problems with the others to varying degrees as real snubs. Gary Clark’s stats look very similar to those of contemporaries Mark Duper and Mark Clayton, and given that they’re all in a logjam below other WRs in and not, it’s tough to think that any of them deserve to be in. Mark May’s postseason honors sit at 0/1, well behind ‘Skins linemate Joe Jacoby at 2/4 (plus Jacoby has membership on the all-80s team) — and Jacoby’s behind Russ Grimm’s 4/4/80s profile from that o-line. I’m thinking Jacoby is borderline as it is, which puts May out of the picture. Karl Mecklenberg looks similar in postseason honors to a bunch of other LB peers who may or may not be snubs, including Sam Mills, Rickey Jackson, Kevin Greene, Charles Haley, Clay Matthews, Wilbur Marshall, Cornelius Bennett, and Chris Spielman — and I’m guessing he’s behind Jackson, Greene, Mills, and Haley, for starters. Dennis Smith is behind the logjam of 80s-90s safeties not in (Joey Browner, Kenny Easley, Leroy Butler, and fellow Bronco Steve Atwater).
The one I really don’t get is Jim Marshall. I don’t think he has any business in the HoF. In a 20 year career, Marshall managed to make the pro bowl only twice, and was a 1st team all pro zero times. That’s right, not once. If he got in, he would have by far the worst such numbers in the HoF for a DL (Fred Dean, who was a weak choice as it is, sits at 2/4, the lowest at this point). Marshall’s got that long consecutive game streak, but I’m thinking he’s football’s equivalent to Everett Scott (who is number 3 on the consecutive game streak list in Major League Baseball and was a very respectable second baseman but no HoF-er) and not Cal Ripken, Jr. (whose stats are those of a legit HoF-er). Note also that two of Marshall’s DL-mates are already in, Alan Page and Carl Eller, and despite a 4/6 postseason profile, Eller didn’t get elected until his last year of eligibility and 13th try as finalist — only Lynn Swann had more years as finalist before being voted in; this clearly says the HoF voters see Eller as a bubble candidate, and if so, where does that leave Marshall? I’m thinking in the Hall of the Very Good.
Billy 22October2008
The argument on Jim Marshall besides the longevity (which shouldn’t matter) is the sacks. He unofficially had over 120 and the fact that he was steller in the post season. I have often read many accounta where he was better against the run than Eller. Obviously Page was the best Lineman on that team, but I have no problem with three lineman from the same team being in the HOF.
Along the same lines Ifeel the 85 Bears were the greatest defensive team of all time. Currently they Have Hampton in the HOF. Dent should have been in before Dean. The plater that shouls aready be in is Steve McMichael, maybe the best DT of the 80’s.
bachslunch 26October2008
Re Jim Marshall: 120 sacks over a 20 year career comes out to 6 sacks per season, which strikes me as low. And my understanding is that the Vikes defense tanked in Super Bowls, and I’ve seen nothing written suggesting Marshall did any better than anyone else. Would like to see a reference on this if there’s one available. No idea how Marshall was against the run, but am wondering if that’s enough to overcome his negatives.
Re Richard Dent: I’m no fan of Fred Dean being in the HoF either, so no support there from me. I find Dent’s really low 1/4 “all pro/pro bowl” numbers and reputation for taking plays off unattractive from a HoF standpoint.
Re Steve McMichael: note that his postseason profile is 2/2, same as Keith Millard’s, and the latter is on the all-80s team while McMichael is not. Dave Butz is the other DT on that all 80s team at 1/1. Plus there’s Joe Klecko and Fred Smerlas to consider, who have similar or better postseason profiles. I don’t see why McMichael deserves a leg up on everyone else here, regardless of who he played for.
Re Bears and “greatest defensive team of all time”: have no doubt they were terrific. Would like to see the numbers (probably adjusted for era) saying they were the absolute best. And even if they are, HoF membership tends to reward excellence over a long period of time, or in rare instances, excellence over a shorter period — but in any event, that’s going to be more than one great year. Otherwise, we’d start arguing for players like Spec Sanders and Barry Foster for HoF consideration. Mike Singletary and Dan Hampton are in from the ‘85 Bears, and for my money they’re the two who deserve HoF membership.
woodstock 26October2008
sorry, but Winston Hill should definately be in the HOF. No being generous about it. 8 time probowl, in 3 positions (Left, Right and Center). 15 years. Rendered people like HOF Bubba Smith ineffective. Total class act… and the smoothest of his type. Should have been in a long time ago. period.
Billy 27October2008
Bubba Smith is not in the HOF. Winston Hill may have an argument anyways.
85 Bears pitched two shutouts in playoffs, then 10 in a walk over of the Patriots. 3.3 pts per game in the playoffs an 12 points a game during the regular season, makes you the greatest defensive team of all time.
bachslunch 27October2008
Woodstock–
Sorry, but I see no good argument favoring Winston Hill for the HoF over Jim Tyrer, who is a close contemporary of Hill’s. “1st team all pro/pro bowl” numbers for both (including AFL) are:
Tyrer 6/9
Hill 0/8
And that’s not at all close on the former parameter, which is a crucial one to consider. Also note that the OTs on the AFL-All Time Team, as chosen in 1970 by a panel of Hall of Fame selectors comprised of professional football writers from American Football League cities, are:
First team: Ron Mix, Jim Tyrer
Second team: Winston Hill, Stew Barber
Hill’s numbers look more like those of Falcons OT George Kunz, who is at 1/8 — and any argument pushing Hill has to sidestep Kunz, which is tough to do. Note that there are several players with 8 or 9 pro bowl appearances not in the HoF; besides Tyrer, Kunz, and Hill, there’s also Maxie Baughan, Chris Hanburger, Les Richter, Walt Sweeney, and Lemar Parrish.
Note also that being a “class act” has no bearing on HoF worth, explicitly stated per the Pro Football HoF’s own guidelines — otherwise Paul Hornung and Lawrence Taylor would likely not be in. Baseball’s HoF, unlike football’s, does indeed instruct voters to consider the player’s character.
Billy–
Nice numbers re the ‘85 Bears, but would be more easily swayed on their being the best defense ever in a comparison with other great defenses adjusted for era. Not to mention whether the “best ever” should be for one season or over a larger time period. And even if they are the “best ever,” that still doesn’t mean the ‘85 Bears should have more than Hampton and Singletary in the HoF, given the criteria for membership. Spec Sanders, remember?
Justin 28October2008
Great discussion on the relative strengths and weaknesses of various HOF candidates. I was wondering people’s thoughts on the current logjam with 80s-90s DBs. It is beginning to get criminal that players like Albert Lewis, Deron Cherry, Steve Atwater, Hanford Dixon, Frank Minnifield, Ken Easley, etc. have not been given a hearing during the selection meeting. This problem could only get worse as the recent crop of DBs, guys like Rod Woodson, Darren Woodson, Deion Sanders, Aenas Williams, Champ Bailey, John Lynch, Brian Dawkins, Ty Law, Troy Vincent (not to mention the current young guys like Ed Reed, Bob Sanders, and Troy Polamalu) become eligible. The selectors are simply facing a crushing logjam with DBs and maybe Defensive players in general.
bachslunch 28October2008
My take on the ’80s-’90s-’00s DBs — there will be a couple such folks who’ll get in the HoF pretty easily, but I suspect most of those Justin listed won’t make it at all. Note also than DBs, especially safeties, seem to have a tough time getting into Canton generally.
Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders are locks, likely to be elected in their first year of eligibility. Both have “1st team all pro/pro bowl” numbers far above the rest (Woodson’s at 6/11, Sanders at 7/8) and were world-class KRs to boot.
Guessing here: Aeneas Williams (4/8) is a yes after a long wait. Champ Bailey (3/8) also yes after some waiting. John Lynch (3/9) very possible, but will wait a good while. Brian Dawkins (4/6) is a respectable maybe, probably has a less good chance than Lynch. It’s possible one of Kenny Easley (3/5 but short career) or Steve Atwater (2/8) might sneak in during a slower year.
Would think none of the rest make it — I’d guess their chances might run in descending order for those Justin mentioned (and some he didn’t) with Lester Hayes (2/5), Donnie Shell (3/5), Leroy Butler (4/4), Joey Browner (3/6), Deron Cherry (3/6), Albert Lewis (2/4), Ed Reed (3/4), Ty Law (2/5), Darren Woodson (3/5), Bob Sanders (2/2), Rodney Harrison (2/2), Ronde Barber (3/4), Sam Madison (2/4), Nolan Cromwell (3/4), Charles Woodson (1/4), Troy Vincent (1/5), Troy Polamalu (1/4), Mark Haynes (2/3), Carnell Lake (1/5), Hanford Dixon (2/3), Everson Walls (1/4), and Frank Minnifield (1/4).
But no guarantees for any except Woodson and Sanders, sorry to say.
Pro Football Hall of Fame Finalists Announced - Class of 2009 | Zoneblitz.com 28October2008
[...] see what we (and a group of dedicated commentors) think will play out for the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame class, follow this link. Share [...]
Billy 29October2008
You guys are right on about the Defensive backs. Their will be worthy guys never elected. The Veterans commitee already has to deal with a logjam ie Jack Butler, Pat Fischer, Jake Scott etc. I’m not saying they should be in, just in the conversation. Woodson should get in this year, D. Sanders when he is eligible, but poor Lester Hayes, Ken Riley, Lemar Parrish, Steve Atwater… they may never get in.
My 2009 list would look like this:
1. Bruce Smith DE
2. Cris Carter WR
3. Rod Woodson CB
4. Randall McDaniel G
5. Lester Hayes CB
6. Claude Humphrey DE
Justin 30October2008
I agree totally. I’m not saying that all the DBs discussed above should be elected, but they all deserve to be considered. For example, how can Hanford Dixon and Frank Minnifield be excluded from the preliminary list?
My 2009 list would look like this (not a prediction, but the individuals I think are most worthy):
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Randall McDaniel
4. Derrick Thomas
5. Cortez Kennedy
6. Claude Humphrey
Billy 31October2008
That is a solid list Justin, i went back and forth between D. Thomas and L. Hayes myself. I beleive he gets in for sure next year. Cortez will eventually get in, but i was looking at future classes and i bet he is going to have to wait until 2010.
Teo 5November2008
This is my 2009 list:
1. Bruce Smith DE
2. Rod Woodson CB
3. Cris Carter WR
4. Randall McDaniel G
5. Robert Brazile LB
6. Claude Humphrey DE (Seniors)
For 2010:
1. Jerry Rice WR
2. Emmitt Smith RB
3. Shannon Sharpe TE
4. Cortez Kennedy DT
5. Aeneas Williams CB
6. Mick Tingelhoff C (Seniors)
7. Chris Hanburger LB (Seniors)
I don’t think that a non-player like Paul Tagliabue, Ralph Wilson or George Young will enter in this two years.
bachslunch 5November2008
Sure, I’ll play along. We’re assuming these folks will all get nominated as finalists during the year in question, which could be a big if, especially with the seniors:
2009
Bruce Smith DE
Rod Woodson DB
Randall McDaniel G
Robert Brazile LB (last year eligible)
Harold Carmichael WR (last year eligible)
Claude Humphrey (senior) DL
Bob Hayes (senior) WR
2010
Jerry Rice WR
Derrick Thomas LB
Emmitt Smith RB
Cortez Kennedy DT
Cliff Branch WR (last year eligible)
Al Wistert (senior) OT
Lavie Dilweg (senior) E
2011
Deion Sanders DB
Marshall Faulk RB
Cris Carter WR
Ray Guy P (last year eligible)
Ken Anderson QB (last year eligible)
Mick Tingelhoff (senior) C
Duke Slater (senior) L
2012
Shannon Sharpe TE
Michael Strahan DE
Jonathan Ogden OT
Harold Jackson WR (last year eligible)
Kenny Easley DB (last year eligible)
Chuck Howley (senior) LB
Johnny Robinson (senior) DB
2013
Andre Reed WR
Tim Brown WR
John Randle DT
Junior Seau LB
Larry Allen G
Verne Lewellen (senior) B
Jim Patton (senior) DB
2014
Warren Sapp DT
William Roaf OT
Aeneas Williams DB
Curtis Martin RB
Dermontti Dawson C
Cliff Harris (senior) DB
Billy Howton (senior) WR
Other non-seniors who arguably should get in down the road who are currently retired: Jerome Bettis RB, Kevin Greene LB, Rickey Jackson LB, Sam Mills LB, Stanley Morgan WR, Henry Ellard WR, Sterling Sharpe WR, Ben Coates TE, Gary Anderson K, Morton Andersen K, Russ Grimm G, Chris Doleman DE, Charles Haley DE/LB, John Lynch DB, LeRoy Butler DB, Joey Browner DB, Steve Atwater DB
Other seniors who arguably should be in: Riley Matheson L, Jim Tyrer OT, Ed Budde G, Jerry Kramer G, Dick Stanfel G, Walt Sweeney G, Billy Wilson WR, Drew Pearson WR, Otis Taylor WR, Mac Speedie WR, Pete Retzlaff TE, Floyd Little RB, Gene Brito DT, L.C. Greenwood DE, Maxie Baughan LB, Chris Hanburger LB, Randy Gradishar LB, Joe Fortunato LB, Tommy Nobis LB, Abe Woodson DB, Bobby Dillon DB, Jack Butler DB, Lemar Parrish DB, Tommy Davis K
And I also say that coaches and contributors should have a separate election from the players.
bachslunch 6November2008
Geez, always forget somebody, eh? Add to “Other non-seniors who arguably should get in down the road who are currently retired:” list — Nick Lowery K
drew 7November2008
I am sick and tired of this crap derrick thomas was the best linbacker of his generation and to say otherwise is false. HE had 7 sacks in one game and would have had earth shaking stats if it wasnt for he untimely death. Not only was he one of the greatest on the field he was just as great off the field. Never got in trouble and just loved to play the game. HE is easily in my opinion one of the top 4 on this list.
Billy 7November2008
Those are quality lists from Teo and Bachslunch. it should be an interesting couple of years for the HOF as their are many deserving canidates not in the HAll.
bachslunch 9November2008
Drew said “derrick thomas was the best linbacker of his generation and to say otherwise is false.”
Junior Seau says hello.
Derrick Thomas was considered an excellent pass rusher, but not so good against the run or in pass coverage. And one would think the “best LB of his generation” ought to be good at all three. That being said, I’m fine with Thomas getting elected, but it’s not at all unreasonable that the HoF commitee is making him wait a while.
Billy 10November2008
Derrick Thomas was a great linebacker who will get into the HOF, but he had peers that were just as good. Kevin Greene, Rickey Jackson, Junior Seau just to name a few. My guess is Derrick Thomas will get into the Hall in the very near future. His play against the run was a little sketchy and the play of Neil Smith was critical to his success.