With last week’s enshrinement of the class of 2008 to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio, we thought it would be a good chance now to look ahead to Super Bowl weekend, when they will annouce the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame class.
First, we thought we’d look back at the last couple of finalist lists, to see how many have been carrying over, and how many typically drop. In 2007, the finalist list looked like this:
Inductees
Gene Hickerson, G (fourth year as finalist)
Michael Irvin, WR (third year as finalist)
Bruce Matthews, OL (first year of eligibility)
Charlie Sanders, TE (first year as finalist)
Thurman Thomas, RB (second year as finalist)
Roger Wehrli, CB (second year as finalist)
Other Finalists
Fred Dean, DE
Richard Dent, DE
LC Greenwood, DE
Russ Grimm, G
Ray Guy, P
Bob Kuechenberg, G
Art Monk, WR
Andre Reed, WR
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner
Derrick Thomas, LB
Andre Tippett, LB
Gary Zimmerman, T
Now, looking at the 2008 list of finalists, we see that almost everyone from the 2007 list made the cut again:
Inductees
Fred Dean, DE (second year as finalist, 18th year eligible)
Darrell Green, CB (first year of eligability)
Art Monk, WR (eighth year as finalist, 8th year eligible)
Emmitt Thomas, CB (first year as finalist, 25th year eligible, senior candidate)
Andre Tippett, LB (second year as finalist, 10th year eligible)
Gary Zimmerman, T (fifth year as finalist, 6th year eligible)
Other Finalists
Cris Carter, WR (1st year eligible)
Richard Dent, DE (6th year eligible)
Marshall Goldberg, Back (46th year eligible)
Randy Gradishar, LB (20th year eligible)
Russ Grimm, G (12th year eligible)
Ray Guy, P (17th year eligible)
Bob Kuechenberg, G (19th year eligible)
Randall McDaniel, G (2nd year eligible)
Andre Reed, WR (3rd year eligible)
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner (contributor, no specific eligibility)
Derrick Thomas, LB (4th year eligible)
So the only 2007 finalist to fall off the list in 2008 was DE LC Greenwood.
Other semi-finalists in 2008 were Terrell Davis, Dermontti Dawson, Kevin Greene, Charles Haley, Lester Hayes, Rickey Jackson, Joe Jacoby, Cortez Kennedy, Ken Stabler, Steve Tasker and George Young.
First year eligibles in 2009 will be Jesse Amrstead, Trace Armstrong, Larry Centers, Marvin Jones, Mo Lewis, Ed McCaffery, Brian Mitchell, John Randle, Bill Romanowski, Shannon Sharpe, Bruce Smith, Aeneas Williams and Rod Woodson. If we’ve forgotten any, let us know.
One change for the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame class will be that a minimum of four, and maximum of seven players may be inducted–up from three and six.
So who will make the cut?
Well, from the first time eligible list, Bruce Smith, Shannon Sharpe, John Randle, Rod Woodson and Brian Mitchell appear to be the cream of the crop (“Mitchell?!?” you cry? “2nd in All-Time total yardage in NFL history,” I reply), and have a shot at making the finalist list.
From the 2008 Semi-finalist list, Dermontti Dawson, Charles Haley, and George Young seem to be most likely to make the finalist cut.
Only problem? Assuming everyone from the 2008 Finalist list makes it back in 2009 (other than Randy Gradishar, who is now 25 years removed and would be considered by the senior committee), that’s eight new guys for only six spots.
Of those eight, we’d guess that the most likely to move on would be Smith, Sharpe, Woodson, Randle, Dawson, and Haley. So that gives us a finalist list that looks like this:
2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame Finalist List:
Cris Carter, WR
Dermontti Dawson, C
Richard Dent, DE
Russ Grimm, G
Ray Guy, P
Charles Haley, DE
Bob Kuechenberg, G
Randall McDaniel, G
John Randle, DT
Andre Reed, WR
Shannon Sharpe, TE
Bruce Smith, DE
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner
Derrick Thomas, LB
Rod Woodson, DB
(Plus the two other senior nominees)
As for the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame enshrinees…(as voted on by ZoneBlitz.com)
Cris Carter, WR – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins – Surprising he didn’t make it in his first year, some felt that voters wanted Monk to get in before Carter. Not sure why, either–Carter had the better career, although he never did get to a Super Bowl. But with Carter’s numbers, they can’t keep him out long.
Randall McDaniel, G – 1988-1999 Minnesota Vikings, 2000-01 Tampa Bay Buccaneers – Personally, I thought it was ridiculous that he wasn’t even a finalist in his first year eligible, much less that he didn’t get in that year or last. If he doesn’t get in this year, the whole process needs revamping. And yet, with Kuechenberg and Grimm on the list, there is that possibility–but McDaniel was the better player during his career, with 12 Pro Bowls and nine All-Pro selections.
Shannon Sharpe, TE – 1990-1999, 2002-2003 Denver Broncos, 2000-2001 Baltimore Ravens – This is one of the tougher calls on the list, as Tight End is a thin position at the Hall, with only seven enshrinees. Still, Sharpe led the way in redefining the position, won three Super Bowls, and was the all-time leader among TE in catches (815), yards (10,060) and TDs (62) when he retired. Those are tough numbers to ignore.
Bruce Smith, DE – 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000-2003 Washington Redskins – The most likely of the first year players to make it, even though he may have hung on for a year or two longer than some thought he should. Smith finished with 200 career sacks, the most in NFL history.
Derrick Thomas, LB – 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs – Some look at Thomas as a one-dimensional player, ignoring the run while rushing the passer. But Thomas was a nine time Pro Bowl selection, three time All-Pro selection, had 642 career tackles, and 126.5 sacks. Those are hall worthy numbers, and he should finally make it this year.
And one (or two) senior committee nominee–historically, at least one of the senior nominees has gotten in each year since they went to two back in 2004–and 2008 was just the second time that only one of the two nominees got in. It could very easily be a case where, with the new limit of seven inductees that two get in again. Marshall Goldberg was the first senior nominee to have been nominated twice and not be elected either time–so he, along with Bob Hayes, Jerry Kramer, Willie Galimore, Lou Rymkus, Mac Speedie, Lou Creekmur, and Ole Haugsrud are some possible names on the senior committee’s list.
We almost included Bob Kuechenberg on the list of 2009 enshrinees, as there is a recent trend of at least one guy who is nearing the end of his “modern player” status (retired for more than 5, but less than 25 years) getting in (see Fred Dean, Roger Wehrli), but in the end, his momentum recently seems to be headed the wrong way. We also could very easily see the committee choose NOT to have a full slate of seven inductees in the first year they can, just because it seems like something they might do–although the last three years have had the full six spots filled, the two years prior only had four inductees each year.
So how did we do? Leave us your thoughts on the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame class in the comments below…
Loading ...
kevin greene 160 career sacks, 5 pro bowls, 3 time all-pro
1st in sacks as a linebacker, good guy
You did ok but I say so what if guys like D. Thomas. K. Greene, and R. Dent were one dimensional. All became very important to the game. Ever heard of a relief pitcher? And so what if a guy plays too long? Except for running backs a HOF player should have 10 excellent years over his career.
The guys on your list are all good HOF choices but for 2009 I would pick – Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson, Richard Dent,Cris Carter, and definetly Bob Kuchenberg.
Kuchenberg with HOF’ers Little and Langer consistently blew open huge holes in the line for Csonka,Kiick, and Morris to charge threw on there way to 3 straight Super Bowls. There’s no way Grimm goes in over Kuchenberg!!
You forgot to sure fire HOF players who are eligible this year in Darren Woodson and Richmond Webb. Webb might get in in his 1st year but I doubt it.
Webb was eligible this year, actually. He should have a shot at some point, but if he gets in before McDaniel, it’s a travesty. Darren Woodson is eligible for the first time in 2009, but I don’t think there’s any way he makes it–maybe a semifinalist, but probably not a finalist. Solid career for sure, but not enough up against some of these guys.
Kevin Greene is an interesting choice–I didn’t realize that he had those numbers. Dent also has better numbers than I would have given him credit for.
We didn’t say Kuechenberg doesn’t deserve it–we’re just not sure that enough voters agree.
I am starting to think seven guys get in this year–I’ve read some more on the classes coming up in 2010-1013, and I think the voters will want to clear up some of these guys before they get to those classes.
Andre Reed appears to be getting the Art Monk treatment. Andre accumulated huge numbers (over 950 receptions) on a team that had many superstars (Thurman Thomas, James Lofton, Eric Moulds to name a few, so the ball was spread around), and played huge in the games that counted. He was just as important as Michael Irvin and had better career stats. I agree he wasn’t a first ballot guy, but this is his third year and should go in with Bruce, just like Green and Monk this year.
My list would bein order:
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Shannon Sharpe
4. Cris Carter
5. Andre Reed
6. Randall McDaniel
7. Kevin Greene
There are just too many worthy players at this time. Ray Guy is the best punter of all time and should be in. Derrick Thomas and Richard Dent should get in at the end of their eligibility. I really don’t think there are any senior committee people that deserve to be in over these modern players other than “The Human Howitzer” Tomy Latone, but he never gets nominated.
1925 NFL CHAMPIONS POTTSVILLE MAROONS
I agree that over the next couple of years the choices are tough, but I believe there are still cut and dry Hall of famers that should get in. Here is my list.
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Chris Carter
4. Lester hayes
5. Richard Dent
6. Randall McDaniel
7. Jerry Kramer
Smith and Woodson are automatic. Carter needs to get in before Reed who also belongs soon, 130 touchdowns is too many to just sit on the ballot. Dent belongs in with teammates Hampton and Singletaty, and then the best Defense of the Eighties will be properly represented. Hayes was Deion before Deion. He was the best shutdown corner in the leagues outside of his temmate Haynes (who is in) in the early eighties late seventies. McDaniel gets the nod over Grimm and Kuchenberg, barely. Kramer should have been in long ago. Creekmur is already in the hall.
Players you don’t think about but, will end up in the Hall some day.
1. Chris Doleman- 151 career sacks, always played with other good players but does not get the credit he deserves.
2. Coy Bacon- Exceptional pass rusher befor they were so en vouge.
3. Henry Ellard- Over 1300 career receiveing yards, great third down receiver.
4. Stanley Morgan- Look at the yards per reception (19.0) He was better than Bob Hayes.
5. Phil Simms- Great Leader, Over 33,000 passing yards, 199 TD’s. Super Bowl winning QB.
6. Richmond Webb- Was a ferocius gaurd who kept Marino upright.
7. Ben Coates- Was better than Dave Kasper. Bruising TE should get in after Sharpe.
Brian Mitchell. Should be a shoe-in. If you don’t think so, then you either were not paying attention to the NFL in the 90s or you just need to do some research.
Well, Gary, that’s your opinion, and you’re welcome to it. I paid attention to the NFL in the 90’s, and I researched Mitchell’s stats–and while I think he has a shot to get in at some point, I would be shocked if he got in on the first try.
You may have noticed above that I listed Mitchell as one of the top players in this year’s rookie class, and he will likely be a sem-finalist. I didn’t have him making the finalist round, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility.
But, bottom line, he was a specialist–he didn’t see the field for more than what, 25% of his teams plays, if that, in a game? And yes, he’s #2 in all-time yardage–but of his 23,330 total yards, over half (14,014) came on plays where he had about 100 yards ahead of him, and had a 10-20 yards of open space before he was touched.
So I think he deserves some consideration–but I think there are a lot of people more deserving than him that will get in before him.
The Bottom line is Brian Mitchell was a return man and a 3rd down back. If that type of player gets into the Hall of Fame he has to be “electric.” I’m not Sure he fits that category. Even though he has all that yardage, others before him have failed to get in with a similar type role, i.e. Billy “White Shoes” Johnson, Desmond Howard, Dave Meggett, ETC.
Some Day if Devin Hester or Dante Hall get into the HOF, people might look at Brian Mitchell differently.
Aeneas Williams will be eligible until 2010, but I believe he should make it in his firts or second year.
Steve Tasker deserves to get in before Brian Mitchell.
Tasker revolutionized his position of Special Teams player. Led the league in S Teams tackles several years. Even though he was ALWAYS double & triple teamed. Blocked several kicks & punts. Even returned a few when neccesary. Consistantly made the Pro Bowl at a position where only 1 is named to each team. Was the Pro Bowl MVP as a S Team guy! Jim Kelly claims to this day he would have been a Pro Bowl caliber receiver if he wasn’t so valuable to S Teams. Kelly every year would beg the coaches to allow Tasker to play more receiver.
He should be the next Special Teamer to get in the Hall… ahead of Ray Guy.
Here is the only problem with a guy like Tasker. Even though he was the best at what he did for seven or eight years, it will begin to set a precedent for a gut who was on the field for roughly 6-8% of his teams plays. Even with the blocked kicks and punts and the occasional recovery or bone jarring hit. He was responsible for 2 or 3 big plats a year. Does this then entile Larry Izzo or Sam Aiken to have HOF thoughts? I agree that Steve Tasker wa a great special teamer. You cannot throw in the “what if Levy let him play more at wr”argument when talking HOF. That is like saying what if Renaldo Nehmiah had hands. He would have caught 25 touchdowns a year… or what if Bo Jackson had stayed healthy… what if Hershel Walker had never played in the USFL. The point is either you accomplshed something special over a length of time or you didn’t. IF Tasker ends up getting in, which is OK with me, there are many more special teamers that belong in.
I watched an NFL network show on the 1980 Raiders due to the passing of Gene Upshaw. After watching, I have an even greater appreciation for Lester Hayes. I always new about the stick-um he was lathered in, but I did not know about his severe speech impediment. Kudos to him for not letting it affect his play or his ability to be interviewed. I also noticed how he got nose to nose with the receiver on the line of scrimmage on just about every down and he still didn’t get beat deep often. Lets hope “The Judge” gets voted to the Hall this coming year. RIP Gene Upshaw the NFL will miss you.
Before Aneas Williams Gets in, here is my lsit of DB’s who need to get in first:
1. Rod Woodson
2. Lester Hayes
3. Ken Riley- How is 65 interceptions not in the Hall?
4. Donnie Shell
5. Steve Atwater
6. Deron Cherry
Harvey Martin = Co Super Bowl MVP, ProBowler and Cowboys all time sack leader, He actually had 23 sack in 77 but sacks were not an official stat at that time. He is truly the All Time single season sack leader.
Harvey Martin had a very good career but would you put him in over Ed “Too Tall” Jones.
Hello guys,
RE:Tasker
Surely its what you do when you are on the field – how you influence games, rather than the time you spend on it?
For this reason i think Tasker should go in
Yes,I am a Raider homer. Raider fans always bring up the names of Stabler, Guy & Plunkett. But how in the world does Lester Hayes always get overlooked? (Please no more comparisons to Deion). The 8 & 10 yard cushions you see today? Forget about it. It was man to man & in your face for a 60 minute war and that’s all there is to it. But don’t let me try to make the case for Lester alone. The voters should just ask hall of famer Steve Largent his opinion on Lester and they will be unveiling his bust as early as 2009.
I am not a Raider homer, and I fully agree that Hayes should get in the Hall in 2009. He and Rod Woodson should both go in.
As far as Tasker goes, you need to look at the complete list of the players that were on the Ballot and all the great players that are not in the Hall. Tasker is way, way down that list. In fact there are Bills like, Andre Reed, Cornelius Bennett, Kent Hull, Jim Jeffcoat and sure thing Bruce Smith, that all need to get in before Tasker. I would even say Darryl Talley is more Hall worthy than Tasker.
What do People Think about Rickey Jackson getting into the HOF with all his personal problems as a dead Beat Dad?
I’d say Tasker is above Darryl Talley. I would have no problem with Hayes getting in based on his stats, although I would think he would be in by now if he were going to get in the traditional way. I don’t think Rickey Jackson’s problems as a dead beat dad would hinder his chances–I don’t think he was likely to get in in the first place.
I would put Brian Mitchell, and Eric Metcalf in as special Teamers before Tasker. I do think Rickey Jackson will end up in the HOF he had 134 sacks in his career which I believe is 4th alltime for linebackers plus a superbowlring and we know how the voters feel about that.
Mitchell for sure. Metcalf I’m not sure about. Jackson would be a tough sell for me–never been a finalist for the HOF, played on a lot of bad teams in New Orleans (and only got the SB by being a role player in SF late in his career–might not carry as much weight), and in his most productive years (later in career), wasn’t even the team leader in sacks. He never ranked higher than 9th for sacks in a season, and was never an All-Pro.
At some point, they have to draw the line and say “That’s a nice career, but it’s not Hall worthy”–and I have a feeling that Jackson is on the “Not Hall Worthy” side of the fence.
Just a guess, though–I’ve been wrong before (once or twice).
You might be right on Jackson, but is his career much different than Tippett’s. Tippett had two dominating years. Jackson had many excellent seasons and always played with other good linebackers. His teams won more games than Tippet’s as well. I’m still having a hard time with the sell on Mitchell. He picked up so, so many yards before there was a player anywhere near him. And for all the returns he had, shouldn’t he have had more touchdowns!
How do people feel about senior nominees Bob Hays and Claude Humphrey?
Both Hayes and Humphrey were before my time, so I can only go on the stats–I’d say both have borderline stats to get in, although I’m guessing Hayes’ are more impressive when time era he played in is considered.
I wouldn’t have a problem with either getting in–but I avoided trying to guess too much as to who the senior committee might nominate. They’ve been historically…all over the board, in my opinion.
After looking at the QB’s already in the Hall, Why do think the three overlooked Qb’s of the 80’s don’t get in (Simms, Esiason, Cunningham)? Compare them to QB’s Like Moon and Kelly.
I’m happy that Claude Humphrey was one of the Seniors nominees, he should have been inducted years ago, he was (after Elvin Bethea, Carl Eller and Jack Youngblood) one of the best DE’s of the seventies.
I agree with Ted about Humphrey. I think he fits the designation of a HOFamer, better than Hays does. He was truly a difference maker on the line. I think he is on par with Bethea as DE. just a notch below Eller.
Are we forgetting someone? Albert Lewis…He picked off 38 passes in 11 seasons and recovered 9 fumbles. Pro Bowl every ear from 1987 to 1990. Along with his 38 interceptions for Kansas City he had 5.5 sacks, blocking 10 punts during his Chiefs’ career, and played in 150 games for the Chiefs before becoming a free agent in 1994. Recently inducted to the Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame and the Kansas City Chiefs’ Hall of Fame…..
Albert Lewis had a very good career, but his teammate Deron Cherry belongs in before him. I know they played different positions but he has to wait in line behind some other corners. I would rate him in this order
1. Rod Woodson
2. Lester Hayes
3. Raymond Clayborn
4. Albert Lewis
5. Louis Wright
Ken Riley should be a shoe-in for the NFL Hall of Fame. What a football player, teams avoided him for years during football career. He still ended up with 65 career interceptions.
I am a Ken Riley fan as well, but for whatever reason he does not get much consideration. I think the same thing that is going to happen with Claude Humphrey is going to happen for him. Once he goes to the Senior commitee he will get in. I think this will happen with Randy Gradishar and eventually for Bob Kuchenberg as well.
This is the All-Time underrated team:
1. Lester Hayes CB Raiders
2. Phil Simms QB Giants
3. Stanley Morgan WR Patriots
4. Harold Jackson WR Eagles, Rams
5. Richmond Webb T Dolphins
6. Ben Coates TE Patriots
7. Deron Cherry S Chiefs
8. Randy Gradishar LB Broncos
9. Todd Christensen TE Raiders
10. Coy Bacon DE Reskins
11. Harvey Martin DE Cowboys
12. Ottis Anderson RB Giants
13. Ken Riley DB Bengels
14. Chris Doleman DE Vikings
15. Henry Ellard WR Rams
16. L.C Greenwood DE Steelers
All of these players are HOF Caliber. If you don’t believe me check out the stats. Most of them played in the SuperBowl and some won in the Super Bowl. There are even a couple that won multiple Super Bowls. The HOF would be incomplete without these players being inducted some day. Hopefully the voters see the importance of thses players to their teams, cities and the NFL.
Stats lie for some players like the wide receivers of the old days. Some player that I veiw as great and needing strong consideration are Issac Curtis – Cinncy, Mel Gray – St.Louis, and Harold Jackson – Philly/LA, Harold Carmichael, Cliff Branch – Oakland and Drew Pearson – Dallas. I think can make an argument for all against some that have made it to HOF. Also Kenny Anderson of Cinncy was near the top of the 70’s QB’s. Sentimentally I like Jim Plunkett but doubt he’ll ever out live his miserable early days in New England. He turned out to be a winner and fun to watch.
Persnally, I wouldn’t put Andre Reed – Buffalo in HOF for a long time. Tough call but is a guy great because he catches a jillian 7 yard passes across the middle? I don’t think big numbers equal greatness in every case as we move forward. There’s are going to be more and more guys that don’t make it with big numbers in our era pass craziness. Kind of like baseball and homeruns.
Tony you make a valid point for some of the former WR’s Jackson, Carmichael, Branch, etc. However Andre Reed should be in the HOF. He was durable, moved the chains, had great hands and he blocked very well for T. Thomas. He was also a winner.
Kenny Anderden is one of the Best QB’s not in the HOF (along with Simms), but How come Esiason never gets any love?
Where to begin?
1. am pretty sure Aeneas Williams isn’t eligible until next year.
2. would be very surprised if Rod Woodson does not get in on his first try. His “first team all pro/pro bowl” numbers are 6/11, very high numbers for his position, plus he was an excellent kick returner and had a hugely long career.
3. Brian Mitchell, for better or worse, won’t likely fare any better in HoF consideration than any other player whose primary case comes via special teams. I doubt he’ll ever get in.
4. Shannon Sharpe will almost certainly get elected, but after a few years waiting — note well that no TE has ever been elected in their first year of eligibility.
5. Derrick Thomas will likely get in over the next few years, but making him wait is not unreasonable given that he had a reputation (despite being an excellent pass rusher) as weak against the run and in pass coverage. HoF electors seem to prefer LBs with more complete skill sets for membership.
6. it’s not necessarily a crime that Cris Carter was made to wait a year (or maybe two, who knows?). Only four WRs (Steve Largent, Lance Alworth, Ray Berry, and Paul Warfield) have ever been first year eligible electees. He’ll get in soon enough.
7. agreed with Tony Parslow that Harold Jackson, Harold Carmichael,and Cliff Branch should be in the HoF. Isaac Curtis is not an unreasonable option either, though I think his numbers are just a shade below these other folks. Drew Pearson should also be in, but he’s now only Seniors eligible. The biggest problem here is that they’re all in a logjam and are probably canceling each other out. Also think Kenny Anderson is the best QB not in the HoF and should be in as well — his stats are better than Kenny Stabler’s and way, way better than Jim Plunkett’s. Also agree that Andre Reed will either make it in very late in his candidacy or not at all, as people will compare him to Cris Carter, Jerry Rice, and Tim Brown, who all have stats that are better than his — though I think Reed belongs as well.
More to come.
More thoughts:
1. have definite doubts about the hall-worthiness of Richard Dent. If he got in, his “1st team all pro/pro bowl” numbers of 1/4 would be even worse that Fred Dean’s (2/4), and Dean is easily the weakest DL in the HoF. Dent also had a reputation of taking plays off, which hurts his case further. When L.C. Greenwood (2/6) and Gene Brito (4/5), not to mention Joe Klecko (2/4), Mark Gastineau (4/5), and Fred Smerlas (2/5) have been found wanting, it’s harder yet to justify putting Dent in ahead of all of them.
2. given how hard it’s been to get Randall McDaniel and Dermontti Dawson into the HoF, I’d think Richmond Webb’s chances are slim to none. Webb will also be measured against OTs like Jonathan Ogden and William Roaf, who will surely get in first, and be in competition with the next level of OT down, such as Walter Jones and Orlando Pace, who may or may not get in, and Tony Boselli, who probably won’t make it either.
3. Bob Kuechenberg has a 2/6 profile, which puts him behind other OGs with better such numbers already in (Larry Little, Tom Mack, John Hannah, Joe DeLameilleure, and Gene Upshaw). He may or may not get in on his last shot this year, but if he doesn’t, that’s likely the reason.
4. fair or not, Darren Woodson will likely sit in a logjam with other safeties not in (Leroy Butler, Steve Atwater, Joey Browner, Kenny Easley). The last of these probably has the strongest case despite his short career, but pure safeties seem to have a tough time of it in general — only 7 are in.
5. Kevin Greene, Charles Haley, and Rickey Jackson likely have the best shot of any LBs of the 80s-90s still not in. Their all pro/pro bowl numbers are comparable, and actually similar to a host of others, including Sam Mills, Cornelius Bennett, Karl Mecklenberg, Chris Spielman, Clay Matthews, and Wilbur Marshall. Greene’s appearance on the all 90s team (only Bennett has a similar distinction) may be just enough to set him apart. Might be another logjam — hard to say here.
6. some people say Ray Guy was the best punter of all time. Aside from posting wiki entries, citing the collegiate Ray Guy award, talking about his hitting the Superdome roof speaker with a punt, and saying that John Madden backs his candidacy (and similar nebulous things), would like to see a good argument full of tangibles that supports this notion. Note that some who don’t support his candidacy say he had too many touchbacks and not enough coffin corner pins, others cite his placing 62nd on the all time yards per punt average listing. Others of course won’t vote for a punter at all, saying they only factor into about 6 plays per game, which isn’t a lot of input.
7. am sympathetic to some of Billy’s mentioned players but not all. Coy Bacon has a 0/3 postseason profile which is way too low, especially since L.C. Greenwood (2/6) isn’t in either. Can’t see Phil Simms in ahead of Kenny Anderson, who has much better stats. And can’t see Stanley Morgan ahead of Harold Carmichael, Drew Pearson, Henry Ellard, Cliff Branch, Isaac Bruce, et. al. Ben Coates is a reasonable choice at TE, and can get behind Chris Doleman, though his weakness against the run may keep him out. Henry Ellard probably should be in too, but he’ll likely (and unfairly) get forgotten about.
And a few more:
1. same goes for Harvey Martin (1/4 postseason profile) as the other DLs not in yet. Not enough to set him apart here.
2. given that Roger Wehrli (4/7) didn’t make it in until his last year of eligibility, that may bode poorly for Lester Hayes (2/5) — hard to say.
3. problems with Ken Riley’s case include only one 1st team all pro selection and zero pro bowls. Note that Lemar Parrish (3/8, and a fine KR) isn’t in either and would appear to have a notably stronger case. Nor for that matter is Lester Hayes. And having lots of INTs can indicate things such as being thrown on a lot or taking lots of risks, which is a not a good thing for a DB. Given that Parrish (who was Riley’s CB teammate) had only half the INTs Riley had, does this mean QBs threw at Riley and avoided Parrish, and if so, what does that say here? Good question.
4. here’s another thing to consider re Steve Tasker. What about accomplished special teamers who played prior to the time such folks routinely got all pro consideration (everyone from Alex Hawkins to Lou Piccone to Bill Bates to Ron Wolfley to Fredd Young)? How do you rank them in relation to Tasker? Who gets in and who doesn’t?
5. am glad Claude Humphrey is nominated as a Senior. He’s arguably the best DL not in (4/6 postseason profile, which is better than Greenwood, for starters).
6. Rickey Jackson’s status as a deadbeat dad should not affect his candidacy. The Pro Football HoF explicitly states that non-football related matters have no bearing on HoF worth.
7. Bob Hayes is a bubble candidate who may or may not get in. In his favor, he was a HoF level WR for 3 years and very good for 3 more, was a fine KR, and has an excellent yards per catch ratio. Not in his favor, he was not good in the postseason (which likely lifted in another bubble candidate, Lynn Swann), his career was short, and he apparently had trouble elevating his game when defenses started paying a lot of attention to him. Can see cases for and against him, though it’s not unreasonable to consider him. Please note that he was not the first WR to bring blazing speed into football (see Ray Renfro and Harlon Hill, for two) and the zone defense was not created to stop him (this dates from the 1950s, as does double coverage).
Bachlunch- It is nice to see the intelligence and the ability to back your claims. Well done. I would like you to take another look at both Phil Simms and Stanley Morgan a lilt more closeley compared with others who are in and other who “rank” ahead of them. I agrre totally on Tasker. You didn’t mention Ottis Anderson or Randy Gradishar. Do you think they will ever get in, Veterans commitee or otherwise?
Billy, thanks for the feedback.
1. it’s actually my error to compare Stanley Morgan to guys like Harold Carmichael and Harold Jackson, who are earlier, and Isaac Bruce, who’s much later. Morgan’s actually not as unreasonable an option compared to his peers as I’d thought — he’s not so far off from folks like Henry Ellard, who’s not in and probably should be, and not as far below Steve Largent and James Lofton, who are in, and I’d thought. Okay, mea culpa on that one.
2. the problem with QBs and RBs is that they would appear to have the deepest representation by position in the HoF in relation to their numbers on field. It’s the problem that one faces when arguing in favor of Charley Conerly, John Brodie, John Hadl, Jack Kemp, Ken Stabler, Boomer Esiason, Jim Plunkett, and yes, Phil Simms. Where does the line get drawn? There are already a fair number of QBs in for each era. Ken Anderson’s stats would seem sufficiently above the rest (taking era into account) that he’s probably got the best case of anyone not in (Simms is later chronologically and I’m thinking more correctly compared to folks like Montata, Kelly, Elway, and Marino). Similar problem for RBs, and unfortunately, Ottis Anderson would seem to be where the line got drawn by the voters. Somebody’s got to be the best at his position not in the HoF. I don’t think either gets in.
3. Randy Gradishar is in a logjam with a bunch of other worthy LBs from the ’50s through ’70s not in. His 3/7 postseason profile is very good, but approached or exceeded by others, contemporary and earlier: Chris Hanburger (3/9), Maxie Baughan (3/9), Robert Brazile (5/7), Isiah Robertson (3/6), Chuck Howley (5/6), Joe Fortunato (3/5), and Bill Forester (4/4), not to mention others who sometimes get touted such as Tommy Nobis (1/5), Lee Roy Jordan (1/5), Dave Robinson (3/4), Andy Russell (1/7), Bill Bergey (2/5), and Les Richter (1/8). Gradishar is not on an all decade team either, while Brazile, Fortunato, Robinson, and Nobis are. I think most of them (including Gradishar) should be in, especially since LBs, particularly corner LBs and non-middle inside LBs, are woefully underrepresented in the HoF. Hard to say on this one if he makes it in or not, but I hope he does.
Yeah it looks like Gradishar might have to wait in line for a veterans comitte nomination. I would rank him 4th at LB behind Hanburger, Brazile and Howley. Bergey is a personel favorite of mine but I don’t think he ever goes. I think you may be right on Anderson and Simms. I think both of them would need the Vet committee help, but it looks like that could be a logjam for years.
I think that the HOF definately snubs former Jets players. Gastineau and Klecko are Hall Of fame caliber for sure, but the HOF committee seems to be very biased towards not voting for former Jets. Mark Gastineau was one of the greatest DE’s to ever play the game. And Joe Klecko was an all-time great too, but he’s so low profile that no one outside of the Jets fan base knows who he is. I also think that Derrick Thomas needs to be in the Hall as well.
In order to determine if there’s any bias against legit NY Jets HoF candidates, we’d need to compile a list of names. About the only two I can see are Joe Klecko and Mark Gastineau (if you’re feeling really, really generous, maybe Winston Hill). And both Klecko (2/4) and Gastineau (4/5) have relatively short postseason honor numbers, in a logjam with Fred Smerlas (2/5) and Ed “Too Tall” Jones (2/3). Logjams like this are not rare (’50s-’60s DBs, ’60s-’70s LBs, ’70s WRs, ’80s-’90s safeties, ’90s LBs) and frequently result with no one in the group getting elected.
It’s not true that “no one outside of the Jets fan base” knows who Joe Klecko is. HoF committee member Dr. Z has vociferously stated his support for Klecko for the HoF in a couple of his Sports Illustrated articles.
There are no shortage of teams who can claim the HoF snubbing crown: Green Bay Packers (definitely Lavie Dilweg, Verne Lewellen, Billy Howton, and Bobby Dillon, perhaps Jerry Kramer, Sterling Sharpe, Dave Robinson, and Bill Forester), Dallas Cowboys (definitely Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson, perhaps Bob Hayes, Lee Roy Jordan, Charles Haley, and Darren Woodson), Kansas City Chiefs (definitely Nick Lowery, Derrick Thomas, Johnny Robinson, and Jim Tyrer, perhaps Ed Budde, Jerrell Wilson, Deron Cherry, and Otis Taylor), Washington Redskins (definitely Chris Hanburger and Gene Brito, perhaps Jerry Smith), Denver Broncos (definitely Randy Gradishar and Steve Atwater, perhaps Floyd Little, Rich Jackson, and Louis Wright), San Francisco 49ers (definitely Billy Wilson, Abe Woodson, and Tommy Davis, perhaps Haley again), Los Angeles Rams (definitely Harold Jackson, Henry Ellard, Riley Matheson, and Maxie Baughan, perhaps Les Richter and Isiah Robertson), Philadelphia Eagles (Baughan again, as well as Harold Carmichael and Pete Retzlaff, perhaps Bill Bergey), Minnesota Vikings (definitely Mick Tingelhoff and Chris Doleman, maybe Joey Browner). Who’s the winner (or loser) here? I’m not sure it’s the Jets.
Sorry — under the “snubbing” crown race for Washington, add Russ Grimm and maybe Joe Jacoby.
other snubbs from those teams mentioned:
Broncos- Karl Mecklenburg DE
Dennis Smith S
Redskins- Gary Clark WR
Mark May OL
49ers- Roger Craig RB
Eagles & Falcons- Claude Humphrey DE
Vikings- Jim Marshall DE
Billy, thanks for the other names. Claude Humphrey is most definitely an unfortunate snub, though he’s probably more Falcon than Eagle. Also, he’s up as a Senior candidate, and I think rightly so, and I’d guess he’ll get in this time around. I’d have to go with Roger Craig (and Rickey Watters, for that matter) in the maybe category at best, given their stats.
Having more problems with the others to varying degrees as real snubs. Gary Clark’s stats look very similar to those of contemporaries Mark Duper and Mark Clayton, and given that they’re all in a logjam below other WRs in and not, it’s tough to think that any of them deserve to be in. Mark May’s postseason honors sit at 0/1, well behind ‘Skins linemate Joe Jacoby at 2/4 (plus Jacoby has membership on the all-80s team) — and Jacoby’s behind Russ Grimm’s 4/4/80s profile from that o-line. I’m thinking Jacoby is borderline as it is, which puts May out of the picture. Karl Mecklenberg looks similar in postseason honors to a bunch of other LB peers who may or may not be snubs, including Sam Mills, Rickey Jackson, Kevin Greene, Charles Haley, Clay Matthews, Wilbur Marshall, Cornelius Bennett, and Chris Spielman — and I’m guessing he’s behind Jackson, Greene, Mills, and Haley, for starters. Dennis Smith is behind the logjam of 80s-90s safeties not in (Joey Browner, Kenny Easley, Leroy Butler, and fellow Bronco Steve Atwater).
The one I really don’t get is Jim Marshall. I don’t think he has any business in the HoF. In a 20 year career, Marshall managed to make the pro bowl only twice, and was a 1st team all pro zero times. That’s right, not once. If he got in, he would have by far the worst such numbers in the HoF for a DL (Fred Dean, who was a weak choice as it is, sits at 2/4, the lowest at this point). Marshall’s got that long consecutive game streak, but I’m thinking he’s football’s equivalent to Everett Scott (who is number 3 on the consecutive game streak list in Major League Baseball and was a very respectable second baseman but no HoF-er) and not Cal Ripken, Jr. (whose stats are those of a legit HoF-er). Note also that two of Marshall’s DL-mates are already in, Alan Page and Carl Eller, and despite a 4/6 postseason profile, Eller didn’t get elected until his last year of eligibility and 13th try as finalist — only Lynn Swann had more years as finalist before being voted in; this clearly says the HoF voters see Eller as a bubble candidate, and if so, where does that leave Marshall? I’m thinking in the Hall of the Very Good.
The argument on Jim Marshall besides the longevity (which shouldn’t matter) is the sacks. He unofficially had over 120 and the fact that he was steller in the post season. I have often read many accounta where he was better against the run than Eller. Obviously Page was the best Lineman on that team, but I have no problem with three lineman from the same team being in the HOF.
Along the same lines Ifeel the 85 Bears were the greatest defensive team of all time. Currently they Have Hampton in the HOF. Dent should have been in before Dean. The plater that shouls aready be in is Steve McMichael, maybe the best DT of the 80’s.
Re Jim Marshall: 120 sacks over a 20 year career comes out to 6 sacks per season, which strikes me as low. And my understanding is that the Vikes defense tanked in Super Bowls, and I’ve seen nothing written suggesting Marshall did any better than anyone else. Would like to see a reference on this if there’s one available. No idea how Marshall was against the run, but am wondering if that’s enough to overcome his negatives.
Re Richard Dent: I’m no fan of Fred Dean being in the HoF either, so no support there from me. I find Dent’s really low 1/4 “all pro/pro bowl” numbers and reputation for taking plays off unattractive from a HoF standpoint.
Re Steve McMichael: note that his postseason profile is 2/2, same as Keith Millard’s, and the latter is on the all-80s team while McMichael is not. Dave Butz is the other DT on that all 80s team at 1/1. Plus there’s Joe Klecko and Fred Smerlas to consider, who have similar or better postseason profiles. I don’t see why McMichael deserves a leg up on everyone else here, regardless of who he played for.
Re Bears and “greatest defensive team of all time”: have no doubt they were terrific. Would like to see the numbers (probably adjusted for era) saying they were the absolute best. And even if they are, HoF membership tends to reward excellence over a long period of time, or in rare instances, excellence over a shorter period — but in any event, that’s going to be more than one great year. Otherwise, we’d start arguing for players like Spec Sanders and Barry Foster for HoF consideration. Mike Singletary and Dan Hampton are in from the ’85 Bears, and for my money they’re the two who deserve HoF membership.
sorry, but Winston Hill should definately be in the HOF. No being generous about it. 8 time probowl, in 3 positions (Left, Right and Center). 15 years. Rendered people like HOF Bubba Smith ineffective. Total class act… and the smoothest of his type. Should have been in a long time ago. period.
Bubba Smith is not in the HOF. Winston Hill may have an argument anyways.
85 Bears pitched two shutouts in playoffs, then 10 in a walk over of the Patriots. 3.3 pts per game in the playoffs an 12 points a game during the regular season, makes you the greatest defensive team of all time.
Woodstock–
Sorry, but I see no good argument favoring Winston Hill for the HoF over Jim Tyrer, who is a close contemporary of Hill’s. “1st team all pro/pro bowl” numbers for both (including AFL) are:
Tyrer 6/9
Hill 0/8
And that’s not at all close on the former parameter, which is a crucial one to consider. Also note that the OTs on the AFL-All Time Team, as chosen in 1970 by a panel of Hall of Fame selectors comprised of professional football writers from American Football League cities, are:
First team: Ron Mix, Jim Tyrer
Second team: Winston Hill, Stew Barber
Hill’s numbers look more like those of Falcons OT George Kunz, who is at 1/8 — and any argument pushing Hill has to sidestep Kunz, which is tough to do. Note that there are several players with 8 or 9 pro bowl appearances not in the HoF; besides Tyrer, Kunz, and Hill, there’s also Maxie Baughan, Chris Hanburger, Les Richter, Walt Sweeney, and Lemar Parrish.
Note also that being a “class act” has no bearing on HoF worth, explicitly stated per the Pro Football HoF’s own guidelines — otherwise Paul Hornung and Lawrence Taylor would likely not be in. Baseball’s HoF, unlike football’s, does indeed instruct voters to consider the player’s character.
Billy–
Nice numbers re the ’85 Bears, but would be more easily swayed on their being the best defense ever in a comparison with other great defenses adjusted for era. Not to mention whether the “best ever” should be for one season or over a larger time period. And even if they are the “best ever,” that still doesn’t mean the ’85 Bears should have more than Hampton and Singletary in the HoF, given the criteria for membership. Spec Sanders, remember?
Great discussion on the relative strengths and weaknesses of various HOF candidates. I was wondering people’s thoughts on the current logjam with 80s-90s DBs. It is beginning to get criminal that players like Albert Lewis, Deron Cherry, Steve Atwater, Hanford Dixon, Frank Minnifield, Ken Easley, etc. have not been given a hearing during the selection meeting. This problem could only get worse as the recent crop of DBs, guys like Rod Woodson, Darren Woodson, Deion Sanders, Aenas Williams, Champ Bailey, John Lynch, Brian Dawkins, Ty Law, Troy Vincent (not to mention the current young guys like Ed Reed, Bob Sanders, and Troy Polamalu) become eligible. The selectors are simply facing a crushing logjam with DBs and maybe Defensive players in general.
My take on the ’80s-’90s-’00s DBs — there will be a couple such folks who’ll get in the HoF pretty easily, but I suspect most of those Justin listed won’t make it at all. Note also than DBs, especially safeties, seem to have a tough time getting into Canton generally.
Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders are locks, likely to be elected in their first year of eligibility. Both have “1st team all pro/pro bowl” numbers far above the rest (Woodson’s at 6/11, Sanders at 7/8) and were world-class KRs to boot.
Guessing here: Aeneas Williams (4/8) is a yes after a long wait. Champ Bailey (3/8) also yes after some waiting. John Lynch (3/9) very possible, but will wait a good while. Brian Dawkins (4/6) is a respectable maybe, probably has a less good chance than Lynch. It’s possible one of Kenny Easley (3/5 but short career) or Steve Atwater (2/8) might sneak in during a slower year.
Would think none of the rest make it — I’d guess their chances might run in descending order for those Justin mentioned (and some he didn’t) with Lester Hayes (2/5), Donnie Shell (3/5), Leroy Butler (4/4), Joey Browner (3/6), Deron Cherry (3/6), Albert Lewis (2/4), Ed Reed (3/4), Ty Law (2/5), Darren Woodson (3/5), Bob Sanders (2/2), Rodney Harrison (2/2), Ronde Barber (3/4), Sam Madison (2/4), Nolan Cromwell (3/4), Charles Woodson (1/4), Troy Vincent (1/5), Troy Polamalu (1/4), Mark Haynes (2/3), Carnell Lake (1/5), Hanford Dixon (2/3), Everson Walls (1/4), and Frank Minnifield (1/4).
But no guarantees for any except Woodson and Sanders, sorry to say.
You guys are right on about the Defensive backs. Their will be worthy guys never elected. The Veterans commitee already has to deal with a logjam ie Jack Butler, Pat Fischer, Jake Scott etc. I’m not saying they should be in, just in the conversation. Woodson should get in this year, D. Sanders when he is eligible, but poor Lester Hayes, Ken Riley, Lemar Parrish, Steve Atwater… they may never get in.
My 2009 list would look like this:
1. Bruce Smith DE
2. Cris Carter WR
3. Rod Woodson CB
4. Randall McDaniel G
5. Lester Hayes CB
6. Claude Humphrey DE
I agree totally. I’m not saying that all the DBs discussed above should be elected, but they all deserve to be considered. For example, how can Hanford Dixon and Frank Minnifield be excluded from the preliminary list?
My 2009 list would look like this (not a prediction, but the individuals I think are most worthy):
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Randall McDaniel
4. Derrick Thomas
5. Cortez Kennedy
6. Claude Humphrey
That is a solid list Justin, i went back and forth between D. Thomas and L. Hayes myself. I beleive he gets in for sure next year. Cortez will eventually get in, but i was looking at future classes and i bet he is going to have to wait until 2010.
This is my 2009 list:
1. Bruce Smith DE
2. Rod Woodson CB
3. Cris Carter WR
4. Randall McDaniel G
5. Robert Brazile LB
6. Claude Humphrey DE (Seniors)
For 2010:
1. Jerry Rice WR
2. Emmitt Smith RB
3. Shannon Sharpe TE
4. Cortez Kennedy DT
5. Aeneas Williams CB
6. Mick Tingelhoff C (Seniors)
7. Chris Hanburger LB (Seniors)
I don’t think that a non-player like Paul Tagliabue, Ralph Wilson or George Young will enter in this two years.
Sure, I’ll play along. We’re assuming these folks will all get nominated as finalists during the year in question, which could be a big if, especially with the seniors:
2009
Bruce Smith DE
Rod Woodson DB
Randall McDaniel G
Robert Brazile LB (last year eligible)
Harold Carmichael WR (last year eligible)
Claude Humphrey (senior) DL
Bob Hayes (senior) WR
2010
Jerry Rice WR
Derrick Thomas LB
Emmitt Smith RB
Cortez Kennedy DT
Cliff Branch WR (last year eligible)
Al Wistert (senior) OT
Lavie Dilweg (senior) E
2011
Deion Sanders DB
Marshall Faulk RB
Cris Carter WR
Ray Guy P (last year eligible)
Ken Anderson QB (last year eligible)
Mick Tingelhoff (senior) C
Duke Slater (senior) L
2012
Shannon Sharpe TE
Michael Strahan DE
Jonathan Ogden OT
Harold Jackson WR (last year eligible)
Kenny Easley DB (last year eligible)
Chuck Howley (senior) LB
Johnny Robinson (senior) DB
2013
Andre Reed WR
Tim Brown WR
John Randle DT
Junior Seau LB
Larry Allen G
Verne Lewellen (senior) B
Jim Patton (senior) DB
2014
Warren Sapp DT
William Roaf OT
Aeneas Williams DB
Curtis Martin RB
Dermontti Dawson C
Cliff Harris (senior) DB
Billy Howton (senior) WR
Other non-seniors who arguably should get in down the road who are currently retired: Jerome Bettis RB, Kevin Greene LB, Rickey Jackson LB, Sam Mills LB, Stanley Morgan WR, Henry Ellard WR, Sterling Sharpe WR, Ben Coates TE, Gary Anderson K, Morton Andersen K, Russ Grimm G, Chris Doleman DE, Charles Haley DE/LB, John Lynch DB, LeRoy Butler DB, Joey Browner DB, Steve Atwater DB
Other seniors who arguably should be in: Riley Matheson L, Jim Tyrer OT, Ed Budde G, Jerry Kramer G, Dick Stanfel G, Walt Sweeney G, Billy Wilson WR, Drew Pearson WR, Otis Taylor WR, Mac Speedie WR, Pete Retzlaff TE, Floyd Little RB, Gene Brito DT, L.C. Greenwood DE, Maxie Baughan LB, Chris Hanburger LB, Randy Gradishar LB, Joe Fortunato LB, Tommy Nobis LB, Abe Woodson DB, Bobby Dillon DB, Jack Butler DB, Lemar Parrish DB, Tommy Davis K
And I also say that coaches and contributors should have a separate election from the players.
Geez, always forget somebody, eh? Add to “Other non-seniors who arguably should get in down the road who are currently retired:” list — Nick Lowery K
I am sick and tired of this crap derrick thomas was the best linbacker of his generation and to say otherwise is false. HE had 7 sacks in one game and would have had earth shaking stats if it wasnt for he untimely death. Not only was he one of the greatest on the field he was just as great off the field. Never got in trouble and just loved to play the game. HE is easily in my opinion one of the top 4 on this list.
Those are quality lists from Teo and Bachslunch. it should be an interesting couple of years for the HOF as their are many deserving canidates not in the HAll.
Drew said “derrick thomas was the best linbacker of his generation and to say otherwise is false.”
Junior Seau says hello.
Derrick Thomas was considered an excellent pass rusher, but not so good against the run or in pass coverage. And one would think the “best LB of his generation” ought to be good at all three. That being said, I’m fine with Thomas getting elected, but it’s not at all unreasonable that the HoF commitee is making him wait a while.
Derrick Thomas was a great linebacker who will get into the HOF, but he had peers that were just as good. Kevin Greene, Rickey Jackson, Junior Seau just to name a few. My guess is Derrick Thomas will get into the Hall in the very near future. His play against the run was a little sketchy and the play of Neil Smith was critical to his success.
why don’t the jets do some promoting for joe klecko for the hof ? he was a finalist and now he disappears. is rosy grier ever a consideation ?
Tony 28august2008, ur comments abt rickey jackson show u kno very little abt football. Get ur facts first and then open your mouth! There was nobody was tougher, or a more complete every down olb in the nfl .in 13 years w\saints, he never missed a start, had 116 sacks, over 1100 tackles, 29 fumble recoveries, 8 int, ect… F. Y. I. From 86 thru 93 the saints won 77 games in 8 yrs! Yes, he played on a few bad teams early in his career but, by in large, mostly on good teams with very good defense’s. Put his stats up against anybody’s for a career @ olb and tell me who was better. L. T. Mabye but, who else? He was and stil is the best player in saints history and in the saints 40 year history, there are no hall of famers. if he had played in NY.or a bigger market he wld have been in already.that’s a shame! Billy, ur correct on tippet. He was a good player but, if he didn play in the northeast bias media, he wld be andre “who”!
Ashe – It was actually 136 sacks in his career, and the interceptions and fumble recoveries appear to be decent numbers for an OLB. However, him being the “toughest, most complete” is not quantifiable, and very arguable. He was a six time pro-bowler (decent), but never a first team all-pro (five time 2nd team), which likely counts against him.
Tippett vs. Jackson is a decent argument, though–but Tippett’s 2-time 1st team All-Pro (and 2-time second team), and his 1980’s All-Decade team probably helped tip the scales in the voter’s eyes.
I still don’t think Jackson gets in. Maybe he deserves it, and maybe some of the reason for him not making it so far may be lack of national exposure (whether because east/west coast bias, “small” market, whatever) during his career, and/or since he retired.
But there are plenty of guys from other “small market” non-coast teams in the HOF, so what did they have going for them that Ricky Jackson doesn’t?
Tony–
Good reply. Note that Rickey Jackson has two 1st team all pro selections, but not via AP — both were via NEA in 1986 and 1987. Depends on whether AP is the only “real” 1st team all pro option or not; several knowledgeable folks indeed think so.
Ashe–
Jackson’s postseason numbers (add in 6 pro bowls to 2 non-AP 1st team all pro selections) look very similar to many of his LB peers, as noted in a post of mine above, and good luck deciding who should be elevated in this logjam. His large number of sacks and fumble recoveries are indeed a plus, but tackle stats are notoriously unreliable and thus a very poor argument to advance. That being said, I think Jackson’s worthy of the HoF, though he may have to wait behind Kevin Greene and possibly Charles Haley before getting elected. We have no way of knowing if Jackson would be in the HoF already if he had played on better teams or not — perhaps so, but those are the breaks (see Archie Manning as “Exhibit A” for a potentially fine player whose talents got buried by being on a poor team — at least Jackson’s better off in that regard).
Tippett is not in the HoF because of East Coast bias. His postseason profile of 2/5 is competitive with the other LBs in the 80s-90s logjam. He is on an all-decade team, and of the logjammed LBs, only Kevin Greene and Cornelius Bennett can also say that — that gives Tippett a big leg up on his competition. Tippett’s sack numbers are high for his time period and career length and he also played the run well and pass protection decently — all while playing strong side OLB with a TE in his face (many high sack LBs were weak side OLBs, without lining opposite a TE). The HoF especially likes LBs who have complete skill sets, which is part of the reason more one-dimensional sorts like Derrick Thomas are still waiting.
Bob Latkany–
Already talked a little about Klecko above. You can bet the Jets are promoting him for the HoF if it’s possible, and Klecko has some boosters (notably Dr. Z) who think he belongs. I can see the case too. But he’s also stuck in a logjam with guys like Fred Smerlas, Too Tall Jones, and teammate Mark Gastineau, all of whom look a lot alike in postseason honors. Too often, nobody emerges from such situations. And Rosey Grier is actually a weak option as far as the HoF is concerned (1st team all pro once, pro bowler twice, well below more deserving DL peers such as Gene Brito).
bachlunch makes very valid points in the above posting. i actually I believe Klecko will be in a Claude Humphrey type situation, where he comes real close at the end of his eligibilty and then will get a senior nominee as soon as his eligibility is exhausted. Rosie Grier has no chance. Rickey Jackson will be looked at closely once Kevin Greene and Derrick Thomas are in. That could be at least another 4 years.
Also I noticed one of Bachlunsh lists of 2009 HOF entries. It looks like Brazille and Carmichael will have to wait for senior nomination as well.
I was one of those who argued in favor of Monk before Carter. Now that’s done, Carter ought to go in, and I don’t see any reason why he wouldn’t do so this year.
His teammate Randall McDaniel looks to be the best candidate at OL. It will be interesting to see how the voters feel about putting both Carter and McDaniel in at the same time. Will they be tempted by the possible draw of the kind of crowd which Green/Monk pulled in for Canton last year? Or will they eschew that sort of lovefest for a team that never actually won anyhting?
It’s hard to believe that neither Grimm nor Jacoby has a stronger resume. The ‘Hogs’ ought to be represented somehow, but it probably won’t happen soon. I see these guys going in way down the line, maybe even as senior candidates.
My choices for this year are:
1) Cris Carter
2) Bruce Smith
3) Rod Woodson
4) Derrick Thomas
5) Bob Kuechenberg
6) Bob Hayes
2 guys who aren’t finalists stick out like a sore thumb to me as deserving.
– Ed Sabol of NFL Films: I guess his son is stealing votes from him. The NFL is NOT the force in America which it is today without these guys. Put them both in; father first, then son.
– Chris Hanburger, Washington Redskins,’60s & ’70s: This is a 9-time Pro-Bowl linbacker (4-time 1st team all-pro!) who was the quarterback of the ‘Over-the-Hill Gang’ defense that helped lead the George Allen ‘Skins to many playoff berths and a Super Bowl appearance. The motives of the seniors committe are hard to figure, but they really ought to send this guy’s name in one of these years.
Team Olekewicz is right on about Hanburger and possible even The Sabol’s. The one person that I question is Hayes. First off i think Humphrey gets in…long overdue. Plus Carmichael, Harold Jackson, Billy Howton, Cliff Branch, Stanley Morgan, Andre Reed, Irving Fryar, and Sterling Sharpe
should all get in before Hayes. C. Carter is a shoe-in this year. I would put Hayes in the same class as teammate Drew Pearson, Gary Clark, Charlie Hennigan, Wes Chandler. Maybe just a notch John Jefferson, Roy Green, Mike Quick, Andre Rison and Drew Hill. In my opinion…he was very overrated. His career consisted of two very good years, one good year and a couple of mediocre years. He did play on some very good teams, but my feeing is he gets too much of the credit.
Some semi- finalists that won’t make the cut… but shouls be allowed to feel slighted. Good Luck to those who are on my list
1. Lester Hayes
2. Russ Grimm
3. Demonti Dawson
4. Richard Dent
5. Ralph Wilson
I agree the Hogs should be represented in the Hall, but the problem is the support for Grimm is hurting the more deserving player Jacoby. Grimm retired first and therefore got before the committee earlier (and he stayed involved with the game as a coach which always helps. But Jacoby played the much more difficult position (tackle over guard) on a team that faced Lawrence Taylor twice a year. Based on prior voting, Cortez Kennedy has a monopy on semifinalist disappointmnet. It is criminal that he has not had a full hearing before the selection committee on Super Bowl Eve.
As for my prediction, I’ll stick with the six I mentioned above (Smith, Woodson, McDaniel, Thomas, Kennedy, Humphrey) but acknowledge that Carter is very derving and will likely be picked over Kennedy.
Finally, Bob Hayes should not be in the hall of fame. Lots of players can match such production over a short period of time. His career is little different that Haywood Jeffires (three time pro bowler and one time all-pro), Andre Rison (five time pro bowler and one time all-pro), Herman Moore (four time pro bowler and three time all-pro), or even Chad Johnson (five time pro bowler and two time all-pro). Dominance over three-four years is not a HOF career.
You guys may be right about Hayes.
Being a Redskins fan, I have tried hard to stay objective and not champion ‘Skins who don’t deserve it or low-rate players from obvious ‘Skins rivals (like the Cowboys) if they had strong cases.
His overall numbers are what they are. Not comparable to some others who are eligible. The argument in favor of Hayes goes like this:
His display of pure speed and the way it can threaten and stretch a defense was actually pretty novel at the time. Plenty of “speed guys” have tried their hand in the NFL and not had anywhere close to the success that “Bullet Bob” did. Defenses actually had to rethink their approach due simply to Hayes’ presence and other teams immediately went out and tried to find their own deep speed receiver. In this way, Bob Hayes’ career was integral to the history of professional football. He had 5 seasons with double-digit TDs (14-game seasons!)and 4 seasons in which he averaged over 20 yards a catch. In 1966, against my Redskins, he had a 9 catch, 246 yard, 2 TD game. I did not get to see him play personally, but you have to think that even when he did not put up these kinds of numbers, that his threat opened things up for his teammates in a major way. It’s hard to say that it didn’t, seeing how successful the Cowboys were during his career.
That last point may have swayed me as well, as it can be argued that considering their long-term success in the league, the Cowboys are actually under-represented in the Hall of Fame.
Here are a couple of arguments against Hayes:
– He pretty much failed to show up in the playoffs during his career. His averages of 2.1 catches, 35 yards, and .14 TDs per career playoff game are just straight-out poor. He had only one truly excellent postseason game: a 5 catch, 144 yard, 1 TD game against the Browns in ’67.
– Unfortunately, he was a major liability in their very next game, the “Ice Bowl” against Green Bay. Hayes had only 3 catches for a paltry 16 yards, and even more detrimentally, showed a lack of toughness and smarts. The Green Bay defenders realized part-way through the game that when Dallas was going to run the ball, Hayes had his freezing hands tucked down the front of his pants, but if they were going to throw, his hands were out and ready for action. In a game that came down to the final gun, with Green Bay scoring the go-ahead TD on their last drive, it’s hard not to think that this constant tip-off to the Green Bay defense might have affected the eventual outcome. What if Dallas had converted just one or two more first downs?
So there you go. That seems to be the overall issue with Hayes. It’s ‘Influence on the Game, Peak Performance, and the Highlight Reel’ vs. ‘Lack of Sustained Excellence, Poor Playoff Performance, and Off-Field Trouble’. I think in making me look twice you might have swayed me. I’ll have to give it more thought.
Justin wrote: “I agree the Hogs should be represented in the Hall, but the problem is the support for Grimm is hurting the more deserving player Jacoby.”
The HoF argument is actually kind of tough for both players. Grimm has a somewhat better postseason profile of 3/4 (4/4 if you count his 1986 NEA-only 1st team all pro nod) than Jacoby’s 2/4 (3/4 if counting his 1987 1st team NEA-only all pro nod), though neither player’s postseason numbers are at elite level. Grimm had injury problems though; 2 of his 11 years are injury shortened, while Jacoby stayed healthier and played a little longer (13 years, only 1 shortened). Both are on the 80s all-decade team. I can see the case for Grimm over Jacoby and I’m guessing the HoF voters see one as well (Grimm has been a finalist 4 times, Jacoby none).
One wonders just how much weight that “Hogs” nickname carries with it, and whether it makes both players seem better than they actually were — interesting question.
That’s an interesting question about the ‘Hogs’. It’s why offensive linemen often have trouble getting the credit they deserve. They’re a team-within-a-team. As much respect as I had for Doug Williams and agreed with the completely valid storyline that ended with him getting the MVP of Super Bowl XXII, I think if we’re all honest with ourselves, it was the offensive line that dominated that game. Williams was barely breathed on from the 2nd quarter on, and the the HOLES Timmy Smith was running through were the biggest I’ve ever seen.
Been away for a while but I’m back. I’m a Dolphins fans from way back and we are way to under represented. IMO guys today in most cases need around 10 exceptional years due to medicine and training keeping them in their prime longer. Five years is probably more realistic for the older pre-80’s generation players.
One thing I remember is how often it was said that the whole Dolphins OL should be in the HOF. Their rushing game was that good!!
But their Defense had great statistics and deserves more than one HOF player. Three straight Super Bowls and a 5 year won-loss record second to none. I really think Terry Bradshaw’s negativeness has effected the voters. He disrespects them even today. John Madden will tell you the truth how good the Dolphins were back in the “70’s.
IMO 3 Miami Defensive players should be in thr HOF. I’d like to see S- Dick Anderson the ’74 Defensive MVP who was every bit the heart and soul of the Dolphins as Nick Buoniconti. Jake Scott was probably the meanest, most talented and the SB MVP. He left via free agency to play for the Redskins. And than along the front many people remember Manny Fernandez and run stuffer Bob Heinz and Ver Den Herder but Bill Stanfill was their 1st round pick (All-time team sack leaderat 67 1/2 )and a 5-time Pro-Bowler (1 time All-Pro) beginning as a rookie. Much like Gale Sayers his career was shortened after playing only 6 full seasons. I would love to see him get his due. Tell me what you guys think. If anyone can remember that far back Lol!!!
Tony P., the ’70s Miami Dolphins are extremely well represented in the HoF in C Jim Langer, G Larry Little, WR Paul Warfield, QB Bob Griese, RB Larry Csonka, and LB Nick Buoniconti. No idea if G Bob Kuechenberg makes it in (his 1/6 profile is short and he hasn’t gotten sufficient support on the HoF committee thus far — this is his last non-Senior shot), but if he does get in, that’ll be 7 players. And the three defensive players you mentioned don’t have especially good arguments — looks like they didn’t call them the “no name defense” for nothing.
Bill Stanfill’s 1/5 postseason profile (“AP 1st team all pro/pro bowl”) isn’t exactly awe-inspiring; also, his career is short at 8 years, and there are no shortage of brief career d-linemen who have as just as good a claim, including Rich Jackson, Earl Faison, and Tom Sestak.
Regarding Dick Anderson and Jake Scott. Both are safeties, and note well that DBs, especially safeties, tend to get short shrift at HoF time. Both have comparatively short careers (9 years in both cases) and non-overwhelming postseason numbers (Anderson 2/3, Scott 2/5). Note further that CB contemporary Roger Wehrli didn’t get elected until his last year of eligibility despite a terrific cover corner reputation, a longer career, and a 3/7 postseason profile.
None of them really seem to elevate above “Hall of the Very Good” status, though there’s a slim chance one of them (Scott, most likely) might manage to get a Senior nomination someday. Odds are long on this, though, I’m guessing.
As far as the dolphins go…I see both Jake Scott and Bob Kuenchenberg getting into the HOF as senior nominees, some day. But their is no bias towards the Dolphins. Little, Langer, Stephensen, Griese, Marino, Csonka, Warfield, Buoniconti. That is a good reprensetation for any AFL turned NFL team. They have not been around as long as the Packers, Bears, Redskins, Steelers etc.
Thanks for interesting input to my thread. My bad , I forgot to clarify that I was thinking the Dolphins were under represented on Defense – ONLY! And that’s easy to do when the unit is always referred to as the No-Name Defense. Seems like a number 1 Defense for a year on a team that went to 3 straight SB’s could have some guys worth a serious look. I know I shouldn’t complain because some folks question why Griese and Csonka made it in there. Mainly because of his #’s. Not me though – I am
bias :)
Oh come on. :) You’re trying really hard to make an argument against my guys. No one knows who Rich Jackson, Earl Faison, and Tom Sestak are including likely many people he played with in the AFL. Lol!!! Have you actually heard of these guys? A good portion of Miami knows DE Bill Stanfill and he was a hell of a lot better than these guys. It’s easy to get caught up in statistics and Pro Bowls. That’s so subjective as far as the numbers you can get elected. Just look at this year. Brett Favre is a Pro Bowl QB. A few disagree on that one. I just remember excellence like Dick Anderson having 4 int in a game. What about Swann getting in with 333 or Joe Namath 173 TD’s 220 Int and 50% completition?
Stanfill was a 1st rd pick and a 5-time Pro Bowler starting in his rookie season and led the 2 time Super Bowl winning Dolphins with 67 1/2 sacks over about 6 full years before his career was shortened by injury. If Don Shula comes out and says he was one of two of his most important players on his Defense? Does that carry any credence?
It’s clearly not always about stats or pro bowls because players get left out or are over rated year after year which is so frustrating. Gale Sayers clearly got in on his excellence. IMO that should happen more often. Politics seems to be a big part of it too. Like Swann getting in for what reason? than he says the WR next to him was just as good and Stallworth gets in the next year? Hmmm.
Where are all of the 49’s in the HOF. A good discussion would be Dallas vs San Francisco vs Pittsburgh in the HOF. The people generally know excellence.Is their fair representation?
Does anyone know who to contact about strong views we might have. Maybe it’s a community thing? Get the sportwriters for that Team involved?
Chris Hanburger HOF ??? Funny how we remember these great defensive units like “The over the hill gang” with rose colored glasses. I’m not say that in this case they were damn good but I do think him getting locked into so many pro bowls may be a product of the system.
As a Texas native I say him play a lot of times vs. the Cowboys. The guy had a motor that wouldn’t quit. I guess that’s the reason he had 19 int’s which is better than average for a LB.
This reminds me of the argument I’m having right now where the Miami Dolphins can’t get their Defensive players in the HOF either. They had a great defense called The No -Name Defense” with some great player that probably won’t get recognized as great. Their Defensive QB was DB Dick Anderson and we sent our guy DB Jake Scott to make Washington’s great tandem of Jake Scott 49 int/5 PB, and HOF-Ken Houston 49int/ 12PB. Houston was very great (saw him a lot too) but he played for the Oilers a perennial loser that had about one good player. I saw them the year they went 1-13 awful!! Than you have Scott who had great players all around him. Tell me this Pro Bowl selection thing isn’t political!!
That’s why when someone says he doesn’t have the stats to get into the HOF I laugh. That has to be part of it but I’ve watched 39 years of football with my two eyes. I’ll take my memory over some marginal stats. Here’s a stat that should be an embarrassment to the NFL. Viking Jim Marshall played and started DE in 280 games straight never missing a game. Can you imagine!!!! If anyone deserves HOF recognition he does base on service to his game. 20 years straight.
We need to fight for some of these guys. Like they did Art Monk.. Lol!! 12,000 recieving yards Or Paul Krause’s 77 int’s. There’s a stat that tells me the earned the right to
Too bad but there always seems to be a flood of great players coming along. Ihere weren’t so many back in the day so I wish they got more credit. Seems like the SB winners have to get a certian amount of credit leaving a lot out. If it was up to me I’d put two or three from each team .
If they let Hanburger in than what about MN LB Matt Blair or Houston’s Robert Brazile? I compared his stats to Miami’s Buoniconti and they’re an argument but not much. I think Nick got partly due to politics with his high visibility on what was a new HBO Football show with Len Dawson than his son was seriuosly injured and finally there was at the time a swell of support to have at least one Dolphin from the Defense in the HOF. It doesn’t hurt to have Super Bowl history. I’d say slim chance but you never know.
OK I looked at the HOF list as it stands Dec. 2009. It’s a very good list. Here’s my first impression. Many are deserving but IMO this is the order I would choose:
1. Rod Woodson – zero doubt/great impact player where ever he went. A Winner!!
2. Chares Haley – zero doubt/great impact player where ever he went. A Winner!!
3. Bruce Smith – a sacking machine / one of two great defensive players on a 4-time Super Bowl Team. 4. Roger Craig – One of the greastest all-around players for the team of the “80’s. A perfect fit for the “west coast offense”. Has great stats and longevity.
5. Terrell Davis – A punishing downhill runner that literally gave his all on every carry. Attained astonishing stats but not before Two SB’s victories and great popularity eating Ma’ma’s soup! Every bit as deserving in the HOF as Gale Sayers. I miss him and I’m not a Broncos fan.
6. Bob Kuechenberg – This versatile T-C-G and was named to Pro Bowl as a LT and LG, no easy feat. Bob had Popeye like biceps as a member of the Dolphin’s glory days opening huge holes for RB’s Csonka, Kiick, and Morris. The first team to have two 1,000 yd rushers in a season. He never lost his edge in 14 years of play. He never lost his edge being named to his 5th and 6th Pro Bowls in his 13th and 14th year of his career. I hope they finally close the loop once and for all on the Dolphin’s great OL legacy.
7. Chris Carter – Certianly a great WR that was the total package and has tremedous statistics. He was so excellent that it would be a bit of an injustice to make him wait.
I’m just not sure about Bob Hayes. Everyone talks about him revolutionizing the game. I’m not sure it wasn’t more of a celeb stats although numbers were great Paul Warfield was catching very long passes as well. He was fast too.
I’m not into Claude Humphrey. Kind of like Dean for me but at least he was on a winner.
Many others on the list IMO can wait some time. Maybe Ralph Wilson can go in on 50th anniversary unless he’s ill. Respond to my thread if you want to debate. I feel strong about my choices initially. :)
Parslow has very respectable choices. The only problem is that onli six modern day players can get in i believe. A total of eight can enter the hall but only if two are senior committee nominees.
I am always surprised with all of the knowlegible people who contribute there is not more support for Lester Hayes.
As far as knowing the Rich Jackson, he was a better player than Stanfil. You might know Jackson better by his nickname, Rich “Tombstone” Jackson. Faison And Sestack were good players but not as good as Stanfil. Manny Fernandez is not HOF worthy. Sorry? Dick Anderson and Jake Scott should both be in. But as a dolphins fan, I’m surprised you never mention Mark Clayton or Mark Duper. They are both borderline but they had a huge impact during the eighties. Richmond Webb in my estimation is also a borderline HOFer
TOny P. – The only guy on your list I really disagree with is Terrell Davis. He might deserve to get in, but not this year. And I still put Randall McDaniel at the top of my list. I still think he deserved to be a first ballot guy. He was that good.
Tony P.–
1st team all pro selections indeed do matter and quite a bit, as do pro bowls to at least some extent (likely less since fans were allowed to cast a vote here). They tell how highly regarded the player was in their time in a most tangible way. And stats are useful IF you know how to apply them. Note that for example INTs are not all they’re cracked up to be as:
a. there’s more than one way to successfully defend against a pass completion, and INTs are just one of them (good coverage, deflections, etc.).
b. lots of INTs can [positively] mean a DB was a keen ballhawk with a “nose for the ball” or [negatively] can indicate a DB who got thrown on a lot (as opposed to say a more accomplished teammate at the other corner position) or one who took a lot of chances and either got the pick-off or got skid marks on his butt for a TD.
Also, Claude Humphrey is not like Fred Dean. Postseason profile for the former is 4/6, for the latter 2/4, for starters, and Dean was exceedingly one-dimensional, Humphrey less so. He belongs in. And count me among those who think Hanburger and Brazile both belong in the HoF (not Blair, though) — LBs, especially outside LBs, get short shrift in the Hall.
And yes, I’ve heard of Faison, Sestak, and Jackson — I brought them up, didn’t I? Like Stanfill, they’re short career d-line guys with starry postseason numbers. If Stanfill belongs, I say they all do. Fair is fair.
Tony P.–
Joe Namath and Lynn Swann are arguably two of the weakest players in the HoF, and any argument that compares the player not in to the weakest ones in is not a good argument.
Also, individual games are all well and good, but that’s what’s known as a “small statistical sample.” Doesn’t tell you much — it’s the long haul that normally counts for the HoF. Post-1960 short career HoF-ers like Gale Sayers are very much the exception, not the norm.
Plus, the HoF inducts individuals, not whole defensive or offensive units. Just because a particular year’s defense was great doesn’t automatically mean a bunch of their players must therefore be elected.
Bachslunch – Understand that All-Pro counts, but 1) should it? and 2) shouldn’t 2nd team then at least count for something?
I ask the first question because I know some of the people here in the Twin Cities that I assume have voting privalges in the AP process that I wouldn’t trust to pick a menu for lunch giving them multiple choice options of my favorite meals, much less voting who the best players are. I ask the second because if All-Pro counts for something, getting 2nd team should in my mind too–is 4 second teams equal to 4 first teams? No. But 8 second teams would be pretty damn impressive.
Tony, as I understand it, the people who vote for these teams take their duties seriously. If you know of any specific examples of AP voting impropriety, that’s fine — I’d recommend naming names and specific votes they did that are suspect. Nothing like specifics, eh? :-)
Re 2nd team all pro. Hard to say, and I’d think these should be considered on a case by case basis. Not to mention players who are voted 1st team all pro by an organization other than AP (NEA, UPI, Pro Football Weekly, Sporting News, Pro Football Writers). Question is, what counts and what doesn’t? For many knowledgeable folks I know, AP 1st team all pro is considered the gold standard, one would think because of level of voter reliability. So what’s better, AP 2nd team or UPI 1st team? Good question.
I cannot believe nobody anywhere on sports networks mentions Bill Parcells that is solely because Canton was not convinced he was done with coaching but going to a front office position (at the top) I seriously don’t think he will ever roam the sidelines coaching. Come on he truly belongs in Canton case in point the Miami Dolphins organization making its return back to their winning ways and they are only going to get better.
Well, AP All-Pro voting may not be as bad as I originally thought it might–was thinking it was more than 50 voters. And I’m not even sure they are made public, unless they choose to make it so.
Still, thinking of the local group of writers, I can think of several that if they are voters, would make it suspect. And I wonder how a sports writer really knows what to look at when grading out an offensive lineman, fullback, or other tough positions. I would guess many get votes based on reputation, or what they hear from other (possibly not objective) coaches, writers, etc.
And while it’s unlikely that an undeserving player ever gets a top spot, it’s clear to me that some undeserving players get votes.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/31901369.html
Chris Cooley had a nice year, but getting a vote over Witten, Gonzalez Gates and Winslow seems odd, given that they all had better years.
Bryant McKinnie getting a vote strikes me as an odd vote–he had one of his better years last year, if I recall, but was still no where near All-Pro level.
And Sean Taylor? I understand that vote is probably intended to be “symbolic”, but the guy played in 9 games last year. How is someone who played in 9 games for a disappointing team an All-Pro?
Like I said, I understand that an undeserving player isn’t going to get All-Pro. But I don’t think (or rather hope) that All-Pro is the end all determination for deciding Hall of Fame worthiness.
Does it make the consideration list? Sure. But if the 2nd best QB ever to play the game happened to play at the same time as the Best QB ever, are we going to hold it against the 2nd best ever just because he never got All-Pro?
Bill – Parcells is not eligible for the Hall of Fame until 2012 by my count, since he was last on the sidelines in the 2006 season. He’s never been eligible, due to his tendency to come back to coaching. When he’s eligible, I’m sure he’ll be considered. Not sure I think he’ll be a first ballot guy, though–are coaches ever first ballot guys?
Great feedback from a knowledgabale group of folks. I really enjoyed reading your threads.
Chris Cooley has faded big time. Witten has been worthy and Tony Gonzales is some kind of HOF guy still doing it including this year more than before.
Billy- no doubt I’d like the M” Brothers” to be in!! I was kind of stuck in the 70’s Lol!!! Unfortunately only Clayton has marginally good alcolades. Too many great 80’s WR’s – Rice,Sharpe,Reed etc.. to deal with. Of course I think our guys deserve a spot if Swann can get in the HOF. Super Duper was my favorite and Clayton was clutch..
I remember seeing Rich Jackson when you say “Tombstone” from NFL fims. His career was short but definetly notorious. He’s the DE that slapped an OL’s helmet so hard it cracked in half. Lol!! Probably should shoot for Bronco’s Ring of Honor before HOF. :)
I know you guys can’t be talking about loveable Minnesota icon Sid!Lol!!
I was thinking Terrell Davis because I fear the feeling of his greatness will fade from the voters memories and than we’ll be saying well only got this All-Pro or this many 1,000 yd seasons. I’m surprised so few Bronco greats are HOF missing. Haven Moses, Otis Armstrong, Floyd Little,Mark Jackson, Dennis Johnson, Riley Odoms, Randy Gradishar, Lyle Alzado, Louis Wright, Dennis Smith, Tom Jackson, Karl Mecklenberg,and Rod Smith. YA, I know most can picked apart most except for Rod Smith. Armstrong was a HOF lock before a neck injury made him retire.
I’ve seen a lot of Brazile and I’d put him in the HOF but it doesn’t sound like his credentials are good enough? I’ve seen superstar and he was it. I know the Steelers didn’t enjoy him. :) And they were the best.
Fred Dean was soley a pass rush specialist the last half of his career I beleive due to injury in SD and I think Humphrey did it when he became an Eagle and long in the too tooth. Both did it all early in their careers. As far as alcolades Humphrey was 6/2 and Dean was 4/2. It helps when people push for a guy like Dean with his 17.5 sacks and state he was the main reason for getting to and winning a Super Bowl. Tell me there weren’t some politics going on there.
DE Claude Humphrey played for very average to below average teams most of his career. I looked up every yrs team stats and except for one superb Defense subsequently on his best team, he played on Defenses that ranked as poorly as the teams record too. I only remember him as a great sacker who spread fear. I researched and found out he had a career total of 94.5 sacks with Atlanta and 15 sacks in ’76. Based on that, 6/2 alcolades, and being on a constant loser I’d take a pass on him getting to the HOF. Maybe if he was on a great Defense of a Super Bowl winner or even on several great Defenses. But I’m somewhat conflicted like many others just for the fact that when you recognize he played for Atlanta who only became an expansion team in 1966. And sometimes it takes years to build up a good team. Not everyone has the Dolphins’s early success. Also Atlanta has zero in the HOF to call there own. Wow, do you let a sentimental marginally great player in the HOF??? One other thing I would suggest is to look at the top sack list from now. Ask yourself if there are many around the 100 sack number you wouldn’t want in the HOF. We know that others had a greater reputation than Claude. Reputation counts for a lot. They didn’t rush out to induct Claude but they sure didn’t wait long for a Deacon, Merlin, Mean Joe or Bob Lilly. If they’ve waited twenty-seven years it seems to me you ultimately have to judge on numbers at this point. I probably wouldn’t induct him.
But now by letting Fred Dean in last year at 4/2 with they say about 100 career sacks they’ve opened a pandora’s box. Therefore you almost have to let Claude in this year unless you say you’re clearly out due to poor team sucess. They might have to do that!!
I personally think the Electors have messed up by lowering the bar with Dean. Do you know how many pass rush guys are above 100 who’ll feel entitled now. For ex. Leslie O’Neal, Sean Jones, Greg Townsend, Trace Armstrong, and Pat Swilling to name a few. Just a thought. There are plently of greatest of greats without needing to lower the HOF standard. Does anyone no the lowest rated Pro Bowl/All Pro player from the modern era to be elected to the HOF ? That would be interesting.
Here’s a Claude’s bio page to judge for yourself
http://www.atlantafalcons.com/People/Alumni/2008_Ring_of_Honor_Nominees.aspx
Now if you still have time Lol!! A little about me, I’m someone who started following football in 1970 at 7 years old. The first game I vividly recall is at my Great-Grandparent’s 80 year old home on Christmas Day 1971 full of family.
I fell in love that snowy day with the team wearing the white/aqua/orange uniforms with those dolphins jumping through hoops on their helmets. Playoff win Dolphins 27 Chiefs 24 in the longest and one of the most exciting games ever. That sealed it. No one else cared what had happened Haha. They were mainly bummed their Vikings lost to the Cowboys 20-12.
As a (near) life long Texan I’ve had the misfortune of being surrounded by Dallas Cowboy fans my whole life. And it certianly didn’t take long to become a Cowboy HATER! 1972 Super Bowl Dallas 24 Miami 3. Actually about 21 days later Lol!! Only good thing is I’ve seen others players skill level playing against one of the best teams for lots of years. Hey, I’m looking for a positive. Lol!!
Nice bias Minnesota guys on Randall McDaniel. What about getting John Randall in first.
Also as life long member of the Texas Longhorn Nation someone is dreaming if they think Eric Metcalf will ever get into the HOF. His Dad has better credentials IMO. Sorry
I think that All-Decade teams are overrated, for example if you look into the 1980s team they put Packer LB John Anderson, who didn’t had any All-Pro selection (not even 2nd team) and never was elected to the Pro Bowl. Sure he had a lot of int’s, but he didn’t was considered the best LB in his own team (Mike Douglass was). Also, Giants LB Carl Banks is a questionable one. I would’ve put Browns LBs Clay Matthews and Chip Banks and Steelers’ Mike Merriweather (even Bears LB Otis Wilson) before them.
Thank for the reply, Tony P.
Looking solely at AP “1st team all pro” selections, Claude Humphrey indeed has only 2 (1972, 1973), plus two more via NEA (1971 and 1974). Fred Dean has no extras here, and yes, I agree the HoF voters lowered the bar letting him in. And re Humphrey and bad teams, I’d argue that fine players on bad teams often get shorter shrift than they should (see Roger Wehrli for another example). Plus my understanding of Dean is that he was more one-dimensional and more of a situational player than Humphrey, though the latter admittedly wasn’t a monster run stopper.
As far as Broncos, the best HoF arguments are probably for Randy Gradishar (2/7) and perhaps Floyd Little. The others are varying degrees of problematic. And the biggest problem with Terrell Davis is his short career — note well that comparisons to Gale Sayers do not favor Davis even though both played for 7 seasons, as Sayers had 5 big years to Davis’s 4, and Sayers was a monster kick returner while Davis didn’t return kicks.
Like Gradishar, Oiler Robert Brazile is also at 2/7 (2 more via NEA and 1 via Pro Football Writers) and is also in the 70s All Decade Team.
And Randall McDaniel’s postseason profile is 7/12, which surely goes well beyond Vike’s homer rooting level. John Randle is at 6/7 but also has a reputation of poor run play, which may delay his election.
With all due respect to Tony Parslow’s opinion, count me among the Minnesota fans who think Randall McDaniel belongs in the hall before John Randle.
Both were fantastic players and good representatives for the team. But McDaniel was a top two or three guard the entire time he was in the league. Randle was a great pass rusher but he wasn’t a fantastic run stopper.
He might have been better known than McDaniel, but that has more to do with the latter being an interior offensive lineman.
Tony said:
“…if the 2nd best QB ever to play the game happened to play at the same time as the Best QB ever, are we going to hold it against the 2nd best ever just because he never got All-Pro?”
That’s what I like to call the “Ray Nitschke exception” and it’s a very rare phenomenon. By any visually evaluative standards, he’s a HoF-er despite a 2/1 postseason profile. But his career (1958-1972) occurred during a glory time for middle LBs — from 1958-63, Bill George and Joe Schmidt got most all the pro bowl/all pro glory, while from 1965 onward, it was Dick Butkus who dominated the all-pro team lists. Nitschke does appear on several AP 2nd teams during the 1960s. One might maybe be able to argue the same exception for Sam Huff (a HoFer at 2/5) and for the same reason, but that’s about it.
Great points all Bachlunch- no research done but I’d think the 80’s began a outbreak period for excellent WR’s. One named Jerry Rice was a lock for one All-Pro spot every year for 10 years and 13 Pro Bowls.:) Do you remember any other locks from that time? Sterling Sharpe was sort of before his injury.
Of course the west-coast offense made the league reception crazy. I remember Warren Moon going crazy down here. Can’t recall but he had some good smurf WR’s. Drew Hill was fun too watch.
I was just poking fun when I said John Randle just because I didn’t notice his name on the thread. I’m sure he’s down the line to go in.
Any thoughts on the 4 or 5 guys I mentioned in my previous thread with over the magic 100 sacks who might think their in line for the HOF??? Maybe Sean Jones? He might of played on the Titan’s Super Bowl Team. Opps! No he didn’t. Here’s a case were 113 sacks looks sexy but look a his career 1 Pro Bowl, who he played for Oak, Hou, GB, and really the sacks from year to year aren’t consistant. I remember his reputation was kind of poor for taking plays off. He’s from Jamaica. Maybe too much of the Rum.:) Ohhhh. He played for the Oilers against the Bills. Anyone remember that one? Playoffs – 35-3 at halftime. I wonder what happen to his second half sacks that day. Lol!! That was a horrible day for many of my friends. Made QB Frank Reicht look like Joe Montana. Lol!!
Tony P., interesting point about WRs. My thought is that the HoF voters are notably more stringent with them than with other skill positions. There are in fact several notable WRs who might likely have gotten in if they were as loose with WRs as with QBs. Some notable omissions, with approximate active decade:
’40s: Mac Speedie
’50s: Billy Wilson, Billy Howton
’60s: Lionel Taylor, Otis Taylor, Bob Hayes (senior nominee this year)
’70s: Harold Jackson, Harold Carmichael, Cliff Branch, Drew Pearson, Isaac Curtis
’80s: Henry Ellard, Stanley Morgan
’90s: Sterling Sharpe, Andre Reed (may get in eventually), Irving Fryar, Cris Carter (will likely get in soon)
And there are a host of now-eligible WRs who likely have weaker cases than these, among them Andre Rison, Herman Moore, Gary Clark, Mark Duper, and Mark Clayton. And several recent retirees will likely also fall just short when their turn comes around: Keenan McCardell, Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith, Keyshawn Johnson (am assuming Tim Brown and Jerry Rice get in).
That’s too bad if those guys don’t make it. Kenny Boroughs was a good one too. What about Tony Hill? I’m really glad Charlie Joiner got in. He always seemed like a good guy. Which reminds me he had a teammate at SD who was pretty great. Not sure if he’s HOF worthy but John Jefferson was really an acrobat. 4PB and 2AP and looked cool with those googles. Wes Chandler was the 3rd WR. That’s got to be one of the best trios?
So you really think the Smith’s won’t make it? I know Brown, McCardell, and Carter have huge numbers but personally I viewed Jimmy Smith as more entertaining than just about anyone. I knoe he was Mr. Fantasy Football for years. Dallas really blew it letting him go. They never could find someone to go with Irving after Alvin Harper left.
I’ve been doing research on RB’s in and out of the HOF. I’ve made up some lists. One thing I noticed over and over is how many players received 4 AP with an ocassional 5. That position lasts longer with all of the arthroscopic knee surgeries but still their games slip a lot with all of the punishment.
1st is HOF member with the least alcolades:
John Riggins 1 PB- 1AP tons of TD’s and yards less than 4.0 yds avg for career
There will be more too! These are NFL’s least appreciated players that are HOF bound IMO because numbers don’t lie.
Fred Taylor 1-PB!! 11 yr 7-solid 1,000yd seasons with career 4.6 avg – one of the highest!
Jamal Lewis 1PB- 1AP!! 5- 1,000yd 1- 2,000yd 4.2 yd avg SB member
These are HOF bound shoe ins IMO:
Edgerin James 4.0 avg 7-solid 1,000 yd seasons 91 TD’s
Jerome Bettis – ton of yds,TD’s and SB
Marshall Faulk – ton of yds,TD’s and SB
Curtis Martin 10 straight 1,000yd seasons 100 TD’s 4.0 avg
Corey Dillon 4-PB 7-1,000yd Valuable SB member 4.3 avg 89 TD’s
Ricky Watters – 5-PB 7- 1,000yds 91 TD’s 4.1 avg SB star
Tiki Barber 10 yrs 3-PB 1-AP 6-1,000yds 4.7 avg (very good every yr) 10,000 5,000= 15,000 67 TD’s a little under rated
Warrick Dunn 3-PB (a little under rated) 4.1 avg 5-1000yd
11,000 4,000= 15,000 64 TD’s
ON the Bubble Guys for HOF *I favor sentimentally
*James Brooks 4 -PB 4.7 avg 3-1,000yd with over 5.0 avg
8000 3,500= 11,500yds 11 plus yrs at 180lbs very exciting 79 TD’s
*Ottis Anderson 2PB-1AP under value 10,273 3,062=13,335yds 6-1,000yds 4.0 avg – Hit the league as a superstar Knee injuries slowed him down. Come up big as a valuable member of Giants SB winning team.
Eddie George 4-PB 1-AP 10,000yds low avg per carry entire career 4.1 only twice – 3.6avg 78 TD’s
*Priest Holmes – 3-PB 3-AP 4-1000yds 4.6 avg excellent all career – 3 super years!! 9,045 rushing – amazingly 16 fumbles for his career -Larry Csonka like!!
Chuck Foreman 5-PB 1-AP 3- 1,000yds 3.8 avg low – 5950 3,156=9,106yds 76 TD’s 52 fumbles a lot but cold?
Ahmad Green 4-PB 6 – 1,000yds 4.5 real good – 9,045 2,865=11,910yds
Shaun Alexander 3-AP 1-AP a little under rated – 5 excellent years 1,000yds 112 TD’s 9,453 1,520=10,973yds MVP
Robert Smith 2-PB 4-1,000yds great avg per carry 4.8 for career. IMO needed to play longer. 7 yrs
*Lawrence McCutcheons 5-straight PB 4 -1,000yds 4.3 avg 6,578 1,799=8,377
Last is the most over rated.
IMO they must just have a position to fill or they look soley at blocking . I was surprised Mike Alstott has 6 PB and 3 AP Is he going to get in for his blocking? He only had 1 season where he averaged 4.0 yds a carry. No 1,000yd seasons and a fair amount of TD’s at 67 but nothing super. Riggins was better than that and has 1 PB. IMO he’s HOF worthy for being a rock star of the NFL. :)
That’s all I’ve got for now. Kind of fun to see if some whose next. I’m sure I missed a couple that are retired. I was mainly looking at them but a few who are long in the tooth creaped in. There really aren’t too many in the HOF from the 70’s. The game was brutal on guys Larry Brown and they didn’t make buckets of loot like today. I remember hearing Csonka argued with Shula in 1979 over money to come back, and ultimately quit because he couldn’t get a raise of about $30,000 from $220,000 to $250,000. Knowing Csonka he probably didn’t want to quit fishing, Lol!!!
Tony – out
My thought on the HoF RBs — they seem less stringent on standards at this position than at WR, but they do seem relatively consistent. Also, while all pro/pro bowl numbers figure in a bit, stats are available for RBs, and those weigh more heavily in HoF consideration. That’s why John Riggins is in despite meager postseason honor numbers.
As for which recent RBs are likely to get in down the road? Here’s my guess. For the recently retired, am thinking Emmitt Smith and Marshall Faulk go in immediately, Curtis Martin after a couple years wait, Jerome Bettis after a notably longer wait. Terrell Davis may or may not sneak in. For currently active and for whom we can pretty fairly judge, LaDanian Tomlinson gets in right away. A logjam of “nos” in Tiki Barber, Fred Taylor, Corey Dillon, Priest Holmes, Warrick Dunn, Shaun Alexander, Ahman Green, and Eddie George. Outside chance for Edgerrin James, but only if he puts up another solid year or two. Rickey Watters probably not, will likely be seen as a later version of Roger Craig and a poor man’s version of Marshall Faulk. Too early so far to say for Clinton Portis (probably has best shot of any besides Tomlinson so far), and Jamal Lewis. No fullbacks are getting in.
FB’s don’t run the ball like they used to unless you consider the “Bus” and Jamal Lewis more od FB’s?
I’ve decided that Terrell Davis is probably a no. Too many other greats in front of him although a bit unusual for a 2,000yd season guy not to make. And I wouldn’t be sad if he does.:)
I feel certian Jamal Lewis with his numbers, a 292 game, 2,000yds season and super Bowl that he and Corey Dillon get in HOF after about 6 years of eligibility. If they were flashy it would be sooner.
Others I agree don’t get in are Alexander, Green, Holmes, and George. Dunn however has big yards from scrimmage and is extremely popular around the NFL and out. Also Fred Taylor has huge numbers and is just becomming highly recognized for being one of the all-time best not be recognized more. They will get in IMO after a long wait.
Speaking of Dillon and New England with their three Super Bowls. If not Dillon what skill players are HOF worthy other than Brady? Anyone?
I don’t know , maybe I’m too hung up on thinking SB winners should have HOF representation? Maybe the HOF doesn’t think that way?
Tony, I weant to clarify about the Chargers receiver of the late 80s and early 80s. John Jefferson and Wes Chandler were never teammates, both came into the league in 1978, but Chandler went to the Saints. JJ had some of the most spectacular first three years in league history and appeared Hall of Fame bound, but then he held out and then was traded to the Packers, where he faded. Chandler was brought in 1981 after 4 games and picked up where Jefferson let go, and had very solid years for San Diego (he even punted in emergency situations). But unfortunelly, neither of them put a Hall of Fame career, and with Charlie Joiner and Kellen Winsolw already inducted, their chances even to make the final 25 for Chandler and even appearing in the prelimanary list for Jefferson are null.
Re: SB winning NE Patriots teams and who gets in the HoF from them. I suspect it will be much slimmer pickings for them than other so-called NFL dynasties. The only locks are Bill Belichick and Tom Brady. Adam Vinateri likely makes it only if he gets way up to the top in the counting stats, otherwise no. As said above, am thinking Richard Seymour has a pretty good chance, especially if he gets healthy again and picks up a few more postseason awards.
Am thinking guys like Ty Law, Rodney Harrison, Corey Dillon, and Tedy Bruschi fall short.
Another thing to look at when comparing Sayers and Davis is the surrounding offensive talent that Sayers had vs. the surrounding talent that Davis had. Not much of a contest there.
Also, more so than the length of his career, I think Davis is hurt by the fact that for years, (at least until the last year or so when Cutler became the focal point of their offense) starting with the ’99 season when Davis blew out his knee, Denver was able to plug in back after back and still get a pretty high level of production. Now, granted, Davis was better than all of these other backs (with maybe the exception of Portis), but I still think it hurts him because it gives the perception that it was more about the system the Broncos had in place than it was about Davis.
Teo, see what happens when we rely on our memories. Must be a 40’s thing :)
bachslunch – I’m sure you know better than I about this HOF business and it blows me away some of the players who won’t make it.
IMO New England’s Defense has been so well balanced and good it’s almost like they’ve taken the spotlight and stats away from eachother. Where are all of the Pro Bowls to go with the SB’s?
I was surprised Ted Johnson 0, Tedy Bruschi 1PB, Willie McGinest 2PB, and Mike Vrabel 1 PB/AP, Roosevelt Colvin 0, and Roman Phifer 0, are so under awarded. In a 3-4 their LB’s have been the glue IMO of their Defense for all of their winning years.
The only Defensive players with any post awards of note are Richard Seymour 5PB/3AP with a whopping 39 sacks for a DE and only averages about 30 tackles a year. That’s kind of weak even compared to his line mates. I thought his stats would be better. Maybe he can pad them some more to look better. Ty Law 5PB/2AP with his 52 int’s looks like the most HOF legit. You know how I feel about Dillon. It’s so strange to feel like fighting for these guys on team I can’t stand. :)
Going back to my previous HOF picks and having too many. I’ll revise.
I feel really good about:
1.Rod Woodson
2.Bruce Smith
3.Charles Haley
I feel good about:
4.Roger Craig – IMO he’s one of the rare players that will get in based on rushing and receiving.It’s close on both sides though. Hard to over look his team.!! May take another year or two.
5.Bob Kuechenberg 6-PB – became AP with emergency move to LT from guard; PB from start to finish of long career. Time to put in the missing block from Miami’s GREAT OL into HOF.
6. Senior Bob Hayes 3PB/2AP- He had 7 really good years. Much better numbers than Lynn Swann and comparable to Paul Warfield with TD’s and yds per catch. I know he was no Warfield in terms WR skill but he did things with his speed as a track star that ignited the NFL’s popularity for sure. People are still curious to know more about him. I didn’t have the priviledge of seeing him in his prime. Unless he dropped too many balls I think the name “Bullet” Bob Hayes should be in the HOF.
I’ve withdrawn support for:
Terrell Davis – probably a no.
Cris Carter – He’ll have to wait. Only 2 AP and his whole career consisted of low avg per catch. Even in his younger years. For example Rice was consistantly over 15 yds a catch in his first 10 yrs. Where’s the YAC? Carter also caught a lot of TD’s at 6’3″ in corner jump ball situation. I appreciate Mark Duper’s TD’s at 5’9″ a little more. I just think he should wait. He’s a shoe in.
What will Charles Haley go in as?? 49er or Cowboy??
A couple thoughts:
1. the ’00s Patriots SB defense is almost as much a no-name bunch as that of the ’70s Dolphins, isn’t it? And I’d also tread with care using number of tackles as a meaningful stat when judging anyone’s defensive worth. These numbers can be, and usually are, grossly inflated by home team based tackle counters, something the Pats tend not to participate in. This article was an eye-opener for me:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/080608dnspoinsidethenfl.141e71c8.html
2. I’m wondering how automatic Charles Haley will be as a HoF-er. His postseason numbers are surprisingly not overwhelming (2/5/none), at the same level as Kevin Greene (2/5/90s) who likely has at least as good an argument. My impression is that he’s seen about the same in reputation as Fred Dean, who finally snuck in after a long wait to even get nominated, has a one dimensional pass rusher reputation, and is seen as a pretty weak choice. The fact that Dean did get in may bode well for Haley down the road, of course, but I’m guessing he’ll wait a while if he gets in.
The Pats Defense is built upon team Defense. Therefore as having players the shine individually there aren’t many. They have a lot of solid players but few hall of famers. In fact there may be no first ballot definates. Good players rather than great players having good team chemistry. Malloy, bruschi, Mcginest, Warren, Wilfork, Ted Johnson, Colvin, and before them Willy Clay and Chris Slade. Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Harrison, Junior Seau have the best chance with Vrabel and Asante Sammuel(To early to tell) being long shots. Vrabel has 8 td’s in 8 receptions on his resume. There are alot of young players that look to be good in the future Jerod Mayo, Wilhite, Merriweather, Hobbs, Wheatley, wilfork,Warren and James Sanders all 27 or younger and Seymour 29. Seymour was a rookie the first championship and warren and wilfork rookies the other two all first round picks.
Greene and Haley great players both should make it at some time and despite the number of sacks Greene had haley’s 5 championship rings gives him the advantage. Before both though Woodsen, Bruce Smith, and Derrick Thomas all were feared more and dominated the positions they get in first.
Nice article on tackles it was nice to know. I don’t know if that changes my view on Zach Thomas yet.
my choices for this years HoF
1. Woodson
2. Derrick Thomas
3. Bruce Smith
4. Chris Carter
5. Shannon Sharpe
These all strike me as definites to me. I know the arguments about Derrick Thomas but comming from his own team mates they say that’s not true. I also remember him as some one who could run down players if had the chance but like LT his first goal was the QB.
Thoughts:
1. number of SB rings or NFL Championships has only elevated Hall of the Very Good players at the QB position (Layne, Bradshaw, Aikman) and for some reason Lynn Swann and Paul Hornung, but no defensive players. Am doubting this will prove the difference for Charles Haley.
2. no TE has ever been elected on the first ballot, which is why I’m thinking Shannon Sharpe doesn’t get in this year. But he will get elected sooner or later, probably sooner.
I have a feeling Sharpe will be bumped by Carter this year and then Tim Brown will be held back for a year or two for Sharpe.
Initially, I thought Sharpe would be first-ballot due to his numbers + 3 Super Bowl rings and the fact that he’s stayed very visible during his post-playing career with his gig on CBS’s pre-game show. But since Tony Gonzalez has already broken all his records, I think that, along with Sharpe’s rep as being a mediocre at best blocker, will be enough justification for the voters to pass on him this year.
Gonzalez will likely be the first TE to make it on the first ballot.
Bachslunch- Good point about offense compared to defense and I don’t disagree. However if defense wins championships you would think it should be the reverse case on counting the rings. Because it’s easier to judge offense by the stats.
Do you think Bob Griese would be identified as being a guy elevated by SB rings? As a big Dolphin fan I never really thought he would make it to the HOF.
As for Aikman I think enough folks bought into the idea that Aikman would of been this monster stat guy if he was in another system. I don’t know if I’m so sold on that but I guess if you let Griese in it’s only fair. They both managed their offenses very well. The HOF electors must of liked Griese’s mobility, decision making,coolness under pressure, and he showed later in his career he could throw his teams to wins without a good running game. He only threw 12 and 8 times in his Super Bowl wins because his team didn’t need to pass. I don’t know too many QB’s with the lack ego to stick to that kind of plan. He also kept the int’s reasonably low most of his career which is vital trait for a winning games as a QB. Aikman was similar in many ways. SB rings certianly helped. :)
As you know most teams didn’t dink and dunk all day long except on screen pass plays. The 60’s & 70’s seemed like a time when int’s were prevelant. It’s probably holding Stabler and his reputation isn’t the greatest either although I don’t think the NFL cares as much (maybe more now)about that stuff as the MLB?? Does anyone care he was a terrific winner at QB with a 96-49-1 record. I also remember he and Anderson were two of the most accurate QB’s in the 70’s. I don’t know why he threw so many int’s?
God love Al Davis’s philosophy of the long ball around the league. Examples I remember are: “The Mad Bomber” Lamonica to Warren Wells, Joe “Willie” Namath to Don Maynard, John Hadl as a Ram bombing to Harold Jackson, Jim Hart to Mel Gray, and “The Snake” Stabler to Cliff Branch. I can’t really remember any famous long bomb duos from the last 20 years. A long pass was a daring play back than but now everyone throws so much but the number or success of passes in the air over 50 yards seems rarer to me. Why throw the ball that far when you can design a Jerry Rice to run and catch a 10 yard pass and go 85 yards for a TD?
I remember back in the day the media made a big deal about the fact they didn’t think Fran Tarkington’s arm could throw more than 50 yards in the air. Lol!! He did ok.
Does Sharpe get in the HOF sooner due to being a likeable fellow on TV. I always thought the TV gig helped some of these guys like Griese and Swann but I’ve heard a lot people say they don’t like Griese (more in his early days) so there’s probably isn’t much of a case for it? Some say it helped Gifford get in to but he has really good alcolades if not the biggest numbers.
As for Sharpe I’m sure he’ll get to the HOF with his big receiving stats but IMO he’s not a TE and they should recategorize them as a WR. I never thought he was a TE. I’d like to know how well he blocked and often compared to a traditional TE? Didn’t he usually play with a second TE in the line up? Has there ever been a predominately blocking TE put in the HOF?
Here’s a thought- why is Roman Gabriel not in the HOF? Is it strickly because of fumbles? He’s got a great TD to Int ratio. And another is has anyone spoken about puting John Brodie into the HOF?
As far as Charles Haley, he was really important for the Cowboys. When he was out for games their Defense suffered badly in those games. He was a locker room leader and he brought energy both on and off the field. If he would of just stuck with the 49ers I don’t think he would been as great. The fact he went to Dallas and had the same terrific impact shows his greatness. I’d take him on my team anyday.
Problem with players like Roman Gabriel and John Brodie for the HoF is the same as with other QBs such as Jack Kemp, Phil Simms, John Hadl, Dave Krieg, Boomer Esiason, Jim Hart, Joe Theismann, Tobin Rote, and Charlie Conerly (or RBs like Ottis Anderson). The HoF voters seem to have drawn a line at a particular point, and these guys are outside the boundary. And if there’s an over-represented position in the HoF, it’s QB. Besides, somebody’s got to be the best at his position not in the HoF. :-)
And yeah, I think it’s fair to put Bob Griese in the category of HoF QBs helped out a lot by their postseason success.
Shannon Sharpe was a TE and is listed as such everywhere I can see. True enough, he had a poor reputation as a blocker, but he lined up as a TE nonetheless. I’d think he won’t be hurt by being on TV, but he’ll get elected either way. And it’s catches with allied numbers that gets TEs in the HoF — it’s what all the HoF TEs appear to have in common. Blocking prowess seems to be a nice attribute to add in, but there aren’t any TEs in the HoF primarily for their blocking ability.
Yup you’re right about there being a lot of QB’s in the HOF. HMMM! Makes you think there won’t be anymore from past eras to get in. That’s ok because I don’t really have my heart set on any one QB that’s left.
I’m sure Oakland fans would argue for Stabler to the HOF and I won’t argue. If I think back IMO I’d consider Staubach, Tarkington,Griese,Stabler and Bradshaw as the QB’s of the 70’s with Anderson,Kilmer, and Hart a notch below the top. IMO Kenny Anderson did reach their status by the end of his career taking Cinnci to the SB but by not winning over Montana people won’t remember him with HOF greatness.
Now I’ve been taking a close look to see if there truly is a shortage Cowboys in the HOF. Personally I’ve always hated them so I haven’t cared.:) I did find some interesting facts.
These players are all LONG time Cowboy starters that IMO were really good players.
LB DD Lewis- 13yrs ,DE Larry Cole 13yrs ,LB Dave Edwards 13yrs , DT Jethro Pugh 14yrs, C John Fitzgerald 10yrs, DE Jim Jeffcoat (102 sacks) 15yrs,and CB Benny Barnes 11yrs.
These players have played a total of 86 years for one of NFL’s winningest teams (Dallas) but weren’t good enough to play in ONE SINGLE Pro-Bowl game amongst them!!!!
Great Dallas teams from the 60’s & 70 & 80’s (nearly 30 yrs of greatness) have only 5 players in the HOF:
Mel Renfro, Bob Lilly, Rayfield Wright, Roger Staubach and Tony Dorsett.
Now for the Cowboy’s that IMO deserve continued consideration for the HOF: (* IMO HOF worthy right now!)
*RB Calvin Hill – 12yrs – 4PB 1AP – Alcolades comparable to other great RB’s – 6,000 rushing and 2,500 receiving. Hill is the definition of all-around back with 8,944 all-purpose yds. IMO a poor man’s Roger Craig without the system to play in. He had value late into career as a receiver.
*FS Cliff Harris – 10yrs 6PB 3AP 10 yrs – 29int 18 FR
CB Cornell Green – 13yrs 5PB 3AP – 34int 4 TD
*MLB Leroy Jordan – 14yrs 5PB 1AP – 32int 3 TD 1S (essentially the same stats as Buoniconti)
DE George Andrie – 11yrs 5PB 1AP – 97 sacks 1int 13FR 1S
LB Chuck Howley – 15yrs 6PB 5AP – 25int 3 TD SB MVP
*DE Ed “Too Tall” Jones – 15yrs -3PB 1AP – 106 sacks 3int
No telling how many passes he altered at 6’9″ IMO undervalued – had 13 sacks and didn’t make PB.
*DE Harvey “Too Mean” Martin – 10yrs – 4PB 1AP – 113 sacks 2int 2S, led Dallas in sacks for 7 yrs – 23 sacks in one season, SB MVP, Defensive POY
*CB Emerson Walls – 13 yrs – 4PB 1AP – 57int 1 TD 5 FR Starter for SB winning Giants
Here we go again!!! Fred Dean, Claude Humphrey or even Richard Dent ahead of Martin and Jones??? NO,no,no. :)
I’ve come to the conclusion that Dallas should be better represented in the HOF for all of their winning in the 60’s & 70’s. Two players on Defense is lame just like Miami’s one!!
One thing I’m finding out thru research is that 100 sacks isn’t the tremendous stat I originally thought. Many players who were considered good years ago have high unofficial sack totals from back in the day. I guess even though it wasn’t an official stat most teams kept track of sacks on the sidelines probably as a gauge of a player’s success?? Just a matter of finding the team’s paperwork. I haven’t had a problem yet on my web searches.
Oppps! I forgot “The Manster” Randy White, Aikman and Michael Irvin which I believe makes 8 Cowboy’s in the HOF. Going from memory and HOF website takes forever to open. :)
I think the Dolphins have 8 which is good :) with C Dwight Stephenson being the last to get in. I barely remember him. Seems strange for a Center to get in on first try? I know he went to a lot of PB’s in a row and blew out knee for good. But we never even had a running game. I wish it was that easy for the rest of the players I want to get in.
Still only 2 Defensive players for Dallas and one for Miami is lame. I want atleast one more and Dallas deserves several from the 70’s.
The spirited debates on who who is in, not in, and who shouldn’t be in are great. One thing I think we should be careful of is ripping players that are already in. Remember we have to take into consideration for the time period in which they played. Bob Waterfield, Bobby Layne, and Y.A. Tittle never would make it with todays stats, but in anothet time they were superstars. Same With RB’s like Ollie Matson, Paul Hornung, Hugh McElhenney.
We also need to be careful when comparing a Bob Griese to a Phil Simms or Fran Tarkenton to Randall Cunningham.
What i usually look at is were they great in their time- frame. And I don’t worry about how many different players from one team is too many or not enough. Just take a look at the CHIEFS in the 60’s and 70’s a good team most years but never great. Even when they made super bowls other teams should have gotten there before them. But would you ever deny that Bobby Bell, Willie Lanier or Buck Buchannon should not be in the HOF because they have too many Reps and the Coboys not enough. I once Heard sombdy say Lester Hayes should not be in because Michael Haynes already is. Or L.C. Greenwood should not be in because Joe Greene already represents their line or thier is too many Steelers already.
For me, you were either a big time difference maker or you are not!
Billy – Hopefully folks aren’t looking at it that way and are trying to be more open minded. I just want everyone to get the credit they deserve. And because I consider myself a student of the game from the early 70’s forward I have lots of opinions.
I hate it when folks put down or really even compare eras. I’m having fun for the most part being an advocate but in certian places I’ll point out where a player may be IMO over rated which might give someone I support an advantage.
Re Cowboys, would agree that from their defenses over the years Chuck Howley (5/6/none) and Cliff Harris (3/6/70s) should be in the HoF.
Other Dallas defensive players look too much like Hall of the Very Good such as Lee Roy Jordan (1/5/none), Harvey Martin (1/4/70s), Too Tall Jones (1/3/none), Cornell Green (3/5/none), and Everson Walls (1/4/none). Will agree that Fred Dean (2/4/none) and Richard Dent (1/4/none) are at this level and don’t belong, but Claude Humphrey’s 2/6/none is better than the other DL — would support him and L.C. Greenwood (2/6/70s) before any of the rest.
So the key to making it to the HOF on Defense is being an All-Pro 2 times? :) I just don’t believe Claude Humphrey is better than Harvey Martin but the only way to know is if they could swap teams. Give Humphrey the same advantages of playing with Randy White and with a powerful offense that would allow the Defense more rest. I sure wouldn’t trust the number of PB and AP appearances on Defense.
IMO looking at all of these great players, I think if a player is a 1 time All-Pro and has 3-4 Pro Bowls with great statistics he ought to be given serious HOF consideration. We all know how iffy the the number of Pro-Bowl selections can be. Who’s to say Humphrey or any other great player doesn’t get a couple extra based on their reputations. They voted on this years PB Team Bret Favre based on his first 8 weeks. Is there anyone doubt he’s not a Pro Bowl QB this year?
And I could definetly see Richard Dent making it into the HOF. He was an intimidating impact player on a SB winning team. He continued his standard of play for 10 years. Looking at his stats makes me wonder why one year he’s a Pro-Bowler and the next he isn’t? I could argue for 2-3 more PB’s for Dent. The whole thing is very subjective. The number of PB’s aren’t a great indicator in every case especially on Defense.
For example I don’t think it’s right when I say S- Dick Anderson, a Defensive POY, a vital member of a number one ranked Defense, SB winning Team but someone says he’s only a 2/3 in his 9 year career so he can’t make it. But looking closer he had 8 int in 2 different years with an 86yd ret for TD, and didn’t make the PB. Hmmm. That could make him a 2/5? But he also had a 1 int year and made a PB. He made it on his reputation of being a POY the year before. It’s goofy!! Too bad we can’t rely on the numbers.
I agree with Tony’s point. Dick Anderson and Lester Hayes are both hurt by this. It works the other way as well. I don’t believe that Paul Hornung is a HOFamer but his pro bowls say otherwise. I do hold out hope however because the hall has included players with low pro bowl numbers like Ray Nitshcke and John Riggins. I also believe Richard Dent had a Hall of Fame career.
If we assume that players from good teams tend to get preference during postseason selections, that makes Claude Humphrey’s bigger numbers more meaningful, yes? For defensive players, postseason honors are usually the only meaningful stats one can find (INTs have particular problems in this regard). It’s not perfect, but for my way of thinking, it’s the best indicator we’ve got. Otherwise, there’s nothing at all to hang one’s hat on — heck, let’s let ’em all in ’cause we think so. :-)
And while the pro bowl is now voted on in part by the fans (which makes it less meaningful here), that wasn’t the case in Humphreys’s day.
I’m just not sold on Richard Dent (1/4/none), who was rather one-dimensional and had a reputation for taking plays off, especially not ahead of his more or less contemporary Chris Doleman (2/8/90s).
I was going to say last time that I would think the process of election is a lot more extensive than my opinion and reviewing stats.
Like with Dent I wouldn’t know he took off plays without reviewing film and conducting interviews of the players around him. That would be the best way to form an accurate judgement and hopefully that’s what the voters do. I personally don’t believe he was any worse than anybody else of the day. Rotating lineman is a practice teams started in more recent years. I don’t blame him if he got gased sometime. Plus I remember he seemed like a no non-sense quiet guy that wasn’t real popular with the media. Who knows why reputations start. I also remember him as a scary guy. I’m glad he never came running at me. Lol!!
I haven’t commented on Lester Hayes yet but he was a guy I really admired. I liked Kenny King and Jim Plunkett also. The Raiders SB win over Philly was one of my favorite. I believe they were the first Wild Card to win a Super Bowl. That win over Cleveland and Brian Sipe was some kind of shocker. Sipe should of never thrown the ball in a crowd. I think all they needed to do was line up for a field goal? Cleveland’s had some terrible playoff luck!!!
As far as Lester Hayes initially I’d be inclined based on his stats to say NO but after further review I’d go YES to HOF. He has 5 straight PB’s, 1 Defensive POY and mid-way through his career he had a HOF player come in opposite of him taking away his limelight. An important thing I noticed is after years of 7 int and 13 int respectively he went to 3 additional PB’s with very few int’s. That means he was still regarded as great but because a no-name CB played opposite him I assume no QB threw the ball in his direction. That’s 3 years he was robbed of int’s and possible additional All-Pro spots. After 4 straight PB’s Mike Haynes showed up and stole the limelight. This is certianly a factor to consider when a great CB has lower int’s than one might think.
One more RB name that I never threw out before, a 5 time PB Greg Pruitt. Might he end up in the HOF someday?
Greg Pruitt was a good running Back, who later in his career turned into a good 3rd down back (one of the first I can remember)But I believe he made some of those pro-bowls as a returner. Right now unless you are Gale Sayers or Jack Christansen, you need some pretty awesome stats at a promary position to go along with your special team stats. This will Keep Steve Tasker, Brian Mitchel, Michael Bates and others out of the HOF as well.
I honestly think that Randall McDaniel(MY UNCLE)should be inducted hands down. With 12 Pro Bowls and nine All-Pro selections how could he not be voted in! Randall is/was the better player during his career than both Kuechenberg and Grimm so it should be interesting to see how the chips fall into place. I mean he’s been inducted into the MN Ring of Honor, as well as his recent induction into the ASU College Hall of Fame…now it’s time for the top dog.
Rhonda, I completely agree. The problem is that this is the last year for Kuechenberg, and therefore, he will be a sympathetic candidate. Overall, this will be a very interesting year. Bruce Smith and Rod Woodson are locks. That leaves three potential spots for the other 13 modern candidates. My guess is that McDaniel and Kuechenberg are competing for one of those spots. Let me also say how happy I am that the voters recognized two fantastic but quickly forgotten players in Cortez Kennedy and Dermontti Dawson. I have to believe that both will have a long shot as first time finalists, but it is good to see they are “on the road” to enshrinement. I’ll continue to stick to the five I mentioned above (not a prediction, but who I think are the most deserving):
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Randall McDaniel
4. Derrick Thomas
5. Cortez Kennedy
Who does everyone else believe are the most deserving (not necessarily who you predict will make make)?
I think McDaniel is the most deserving player on the board, personally. I thought he was a first ballot guy–and I find it incredibly ludicrous that he wasn’t even a finalist his first year. There are rumors floating around of a ZoneBlitz road trip to Canton if the voters wake up and put him in this year.
I would go Smith and Woodson 2-3 probably. As much as I don’t like him, Carter probably makes my list too. Not sure who #5 would be.
I was just about to go try to find when the finalists were annouced, and I discovered they were announced today:
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2009/01/06/hall-of-fame-finalists-announced/
i like the finalists except for cortez who i don’t think was a hof player, especially surprising that he was able to jump players like guy and stabler, who had been longer term nominees….stabler in his last yr of modern eligibility.
i am shocked that haley again was not a finalist. he was way more deserving than cortez.
i also thought ralph wilson was already in the HOF, so this could be the yr he gets in.
i think the 2009 HOF class will look like this:
bob hayes, claude humphrey, bruce smith, rod woodson & bob kuechenberg
seniors almost always get in and i see no exception this yr with such worthy candidates(hayes is long over-due); smith and woodson are first-ballot locks; kuech gets in on his final try of modern eligibility.
as far as who i have falling short this yr:
#i don’t think sharpe gets in because to my knowledge, no TE has ever been elected on the first ballot. sharpe is not better than mackey, ditka or winslow(much less gonzalez now)
#cortez is not a hof. i’m shocked he was on the list
#andre reed….he is behind hayes and carter; the only way he gets in is if all three are elected and that won’t happen.
#john randle….i just don’t think he’s a first ballot player and will fall short this yr
#tags….rozelle was a better commisioner; tags should have to wait atleast as long as pete did
#dent…took too many plays off and i all i use to hear about him when he played was stuff like, “when dent comes to play, he’s unstoppable”, “he can take over a game when he wants to” and “don’t make him angry because then he can be a one man wrecking crew.” dent should’ve been playing like that all the time!!!
#DT…..too much of a one-dimensional player; a monster on third and long though.
#dawson…not this yr but his time will come
#McDaniel….he has to wait his turn behind kuech; kuech has before made it all the way to the final stage of voting, McDaniel and grimm never have
#grimm…same story as McDaniel
the wild-cards are carter and wilson. carter’s chances depend on whether the committee wants two WR’s in this class when already their selecting two DE’s….that’s four players taking up just two positions. unfortunately, carter may be caught up in the numbers game this yr.
wislon has an age factor so maybe the voters give him a sympathy vote. he certainly has his finger prints all over the legacy of the NFL.
FYI: CHAD, McDaniel was a 2008 Finalist therfore Kenchenburg does not stand on that platform alone!
All in all it should be interesting to see who makes the Class of 2009. If Kuechenberg does make the cut…I beleive it’s defintely because its his final year as a modern candidate.
McDaniel was actually at my grandparents house last night and it’s interesting to see/hear his reaction to again making it as a fianlist, he is so nonchalant but inside you I know he’s anxious and excited. :)
Rhonda….
kuech has made it all the way to the final 6(which is now 7) before when it then just comes down to a yes or no vote.
to my knowledge, McDaniel has never gotten to that stage of voting yet. he made it to the final 10 last yr, but fell short of making it to the last round of voting.
only darrell green, art monk, gary zimmerman, emmitt thomas, andre tippet and fred dean made that cut….all were then given yes votes and inducted.
McDaniel will make the HOF, just maybe not this yr.
Chad, I strongly disagree with your opinion of Cortez Kennedy. While he was an absolutely dominate defensive tackle (8 pro bowls / 3 all pros), I think the best stat is the that he was a Defensive Player of the Year on a team that went 2-14. That’s right. That year he had 14 sacks as a defensive tackle for a defense that had no body else worth blocking. He consistently beat double and triple teams. During his eleven year career (again 8 pro bowls), he played on exactly two winning teams (both had 9-7 records). The only defensive tackles of his era that are remotely close to Kennedy in terms of either post-season honors or reputation are Warren Sapp (7/4), John Randle (7/6), and Bryant Young (4/1). But all three consistently played with pro bowl level teammates on defense (John Lynch, Derrick Brooks, Dana Stubblefield, Chris Doleman, and Jack Del Rio). The only Seahawk that made multiple pro bowls during Kennedy’s time was Michael Sinclair, who undoubtedly was greatly helped by playing along side Kennedy. Simply put, during his playing days Seattle was the hinterlands of the NFL world. The fact Kennedy was so well regarded then, and the fact he nearly had 16 sacks playing exclusively from the tackle position without significant help from his teammates is astounding. Does all of this make him a HOFer, maybe not, but he is certainly not the least qualified candidate and absolutely deserves a fair hearing on Super Bowl Eve.
Oops, my last post should have said 60 sacks (not 16).
I’m somewhere in the middle on Cortez Kennedy. I know he was the very best for period of time. That’s alway impressive to be at the top. Too bad he didn’t get more exposure on a winning team. He’s earned the right to be strongly considered for the HOF and IMO will make it after a very long wait like maybe between 10 – 20 years.
Randall McDaniel, G should make it this year. You can’t deny his accomplishments for long. If he didn’t play as Dan Dierdorf would say as “one of the big uglies across the front” he wouldn’t be waiting even a year. Rhonda, I’d be interested to know if hypothetically, he had to wait another year but could be inducted beside John Randle, if that would be important to him? I’m afraid Randle’s in for a long wait. Randle had a ton of sacks. Did he really get most of those sacks at a Tackle position? That’s impressive if true? I might have to bump up his chances. :)
Chad, good breakdown of the Finalists. I noticed you only chose 4 modern players with the 2 old timers to make it. You don’t think 1 or 2 more will qualify? And why is the opinion out there that Kuech and McDaniel won’t go in at the same time?
One note: IMO Russ Grimm must be doing some lobbying in DC on his behalf. Isn’t he a Politician or something? :) I know he was a Hog and all but he shouldn’t of made it this far in the process. He needs to wait longer than Kuech if ever. I thought Joe Jacoby was the best Hog. Biggest!!
IMO the ones that deserve most are in this order:
Ralph Wilson Jr., Senior-Bob Hayes, Bob Kuechenberg, Bruce Smith,Rod Woodson, Randall McDaniel(12 yrs without a missed game!!), and Charles Haley.
Billy – Thanks for commenting on Greg Pruitt. Wasn’t a KR but the Cowboy’s Calvin Hill was much like Pruitt as a top running back gaining over 1,000 yds for several season than became a very valuable as a 3rd down back for the Redskins of all teams.
Just for clarification, this paragraph comes from http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/SelectionProcessFAQ.jsp
and tells the last part of the selection process. According to the site as many as 5 modern players can be selected and 2 Seniors for a possible 7 total inductees.
“In advance of the Hall of Fame Selection Meeting in February, the selectors are provided detailed biographies on each of the 17 finalist candidates. At the annual meeting, each of the nominees is thoroughly discussed by the committee before a series of reduction votes are taken. First, the two senior candidates are discussed and voted on for election. They must receive the same 80 percent affirmative vote as the modern-era candidates. Next, the there is a vote that reduces the modern-era finalists list from 15 to 10. Following that, a vote is taken to reduce the list from 10 to 5 names. The five remaining candidates for Hall of Fame election are then voted on individually (yes or no) for membership.”
I’m hoping for a full 7 inductees that includes McDaniel and Haley but if Senior Claude Humphrey is selected they will likey bump one of them off. Sorry, maybe I’m wrong but I don’t support Claude Humphrey’s selection.
This is FINALLY Kuech’s time!!!! One of the greatest OL’s ever – The 1973 Miami Dolphins – LT-Wayne Moore-LG-Bob Kuechenberg-C-Jim Langer-RG-Larry Little-RT-Norm Evans
Tony P. – Randle did do most of his damage from the DT spot. Vikings tried him at DE a little bit, but it never went very well, from what I remember. And Justin, he only played with Doleman for like 3 years–the last of those (1993) being his first All-Pro/Pro-Bowl year. He had Henry Thomas for one more year after that, and then not much else.
That being said, I don’t think he gets in this year–in fact, until I started seeing stats on here, I didn’t even think he’d get in at all.
Tony – you were right about Calvin Hill. He was the original 3rd down back and was a little better than Pruitt.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought they (HOF) agreed to a maximum of 8 inductees with no more than six being being from the 15 finalists and up to 2 of the senior nominations?
Of the Finalists I believe this will be the the most deserving
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Randall McDaniel
4. Cris Carter
5. Cortes Kennedy
6. Dermonti Dawson
7. Claude Humphrey
Actually, the maximum number of HoF electees as of last year is seven, two seniors and five regular finalists. Whether one or both seniors are elected will have no effect on how many regular candidates get in — the two categories are considered separately. And I too am hoping for a full seven to be inducted, particularly to avoid having deserving regular candidates fall into the senior abyss.
John Randle did play mostly as a DT, and his postseason profile is a very robust 6/7/90s. His major detraction is that his sack prowess came at the price of neglecting the run. He’ll get in, but if he waits a bit, it will be for his weakness against the run.
Note also that Charles Haley did not reach the finalist stage this year. In fact, he has never gotten that far.
The problem with Bob Kuechenberg’s HoF candidacy is at least twofold:
a. there are already five of his contemporaries who played guard in the HoF (Tom Mack, Larry Little, Gene Upshaw, Joe DeLamielleure, and John Hannah), as well as two Dolphin linemates.
b. Kooch’s postseason profile is OK if not especially earth-shattering at 1/6/none.
Of the two “Hogs,” Russ Grimm has a slightly better postseason profile (3/4/80s) than Joe Jacoby (2/4/80s) — each has an additional 1st team all pro year not listed above courtesy of NEA. That may be why Grimm’s getting nominated as a finalist and Jacoby isn’t. Grimm’s career is a little shorter, though, and a bit more tarnished by injury.
And I’ll agree that Cortez Kennedy is very deserving of consideration. His postseason profile of 3/8/90s is competitive with any DT of his era.
Tony….
the process calls for a max of 7/minimum of 4 with the max of moderns up to 5 players.
so even if one or both seniors fall short, there still will be at most only 5 moderns eligible, meaning if one(or both) seniors fail, the class can’t have seven members…possibly not even six.
also, the seniors are voted on seperately from the moderns and the committee’s first two players discussed will be the seniors, with that directly leading to a yes or no vote on them….then the committee gets to the other 15 finalists and the process of chopping those down to 5.
from there, those 5 will then be simply voted on yes or no.
what this means is, we’re going to already know which one or both of the two seniors got in just by if their names are on the final 10 list when it’s announced during the process.
where kuech and McDaniel could get in, that would be a stretch when there’s already probably two DE’s being elected, not to mention maybe two WR’s also.
there’s no way the committe is going to allocate six spots into the HOF at just three positions. i believe it is unlikely that even two WR’s will be selected and in that case, carter probably falls short.
i doubt the committee votes out hayes on his last ever chance for a player like carter who is only in his second yr of eligibility. in fact, only 3 seniors out of the last 20 have been rejected.
that’s why though i believe the two wild-cards are carter and wilson. i believe both are HOF’s, but it’s up to the committee to decide on how large to make the class and if they want to overload it with WR’s and DE’s which would take up four of the possible seven spots.
i believe the voters probably favor a more limited class rather than a max one(as i also do).
Another point to consider is that there appears to be a cyclical nature to the committee’s voting. They tend to have “catch-up” years when the first-year eligible guys are a little less prominent. For example, in 2001, when Jackie Slater was the primary first-time eligible candidate, the class was large and also included Lynn Swann, Ron Yary, Jack Youngblood, Mike Munchak, Marv Levy, and the Nick Buoniconti (senior candidate). Then in the back-to-back years when John Elway, Dan Marino, Barry Sanders, and Steve Young were eligible, the classes were very small and only included one other non-senior candidate: Carl Eller. Last year, I think it is safe to say that the selectors had a “catch-up” class, electing several players that had been forced to wait too long. One problem with this cycle is that the small class years create backlogs.
In my opinion, this year is sort of a mixture. There are several very qualified, prominent first time eligible players like Bruce Smith and Rod Woodson, but the selectors also have a backlog of other very qualified candidates (Derrick Thomas, Cortez Kennedy, Randall McDaniel, Cris Carter). My guess is that they will fill all five slots for modern players, but that this may be one of the last years they do so. Especially considering the number and quality of the upcoming guys: Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Marshal Faulk, Deion Sanders, etc.
Therefore, this may be one of the last years (for a while) for finalists like Thomas, McDaniel, Kennedy, Dawson, Grimm, and Reed. Let alone worthy guys that for whatever reason have not made the finals: Sam Mills, Rickey Jackson, Joe Jacoby, etc.
As I’ve said, I think this is a very interesting year. Will be fun come January 31st.
This is where I get most of my statistics from. The best. http://www.sports-reference.com/
Sounds like many don’t agree on Bob Kuechenberg deserving the HOF. I know his postseason isn’t staggering at 6/1. What impresses me is his C-G-T versatility and his longevity of excellence with his PB’s being spread out over his long career. In 1978 he made the Pro-Bowl as a Left Guard and the All-Pro Team as a Left Tackle. I’m hoping if nothing more he’s a sentimental pick(I just want him to make it) at this point but there’s a possibilty this image of the ’72 Dolphins being grumpy old men could unfairly get attached to him. As far as the number of Fins Lineman in the HOF going against him, I remember the MNF announcers saying they should put the whole line in the HOF. Lol!!! Don’t hold me on that because it was a long time ago. Lol!!! But for a couple years they were that good. I don’t think three out of five in the HOF is unreasonable.:) First line to have multiple 1,000 yd rushers. And Csonka did’t exactly dazzle with his moves or speed. He went through holes made right up the middle off center, and than lowered his shoulder dragging and running guys over.
Other Dolphin Offensive Lineman in the HOF are C-Jim Langer 6/4/70’s, RG-Larry Little 5/5/70’s and C-Dwight Stephenson 5/4/80’s (only started 87 games). That’s close to Gale Sayers like. He had 67 games played.
Hypo. if Kooch does make it, with Woodson, Smith, and the two Seniors. Who are the two wild cards? That’s 2-DE,1-WR,1-DB and 1-LG. Do they really target positions to have balance at this point? If that’s true they will lean towards an owner,commissioner,LB, P, TE, and C for the final 2 picks?
Also a reminder for anyone who wants to send a letter of support for a qualified player to the HOF that it needs to be recieved at the HOF by March 1st where they will collect them and give to the Committee for consideration. Sorry I don’t have HOF address.
here’s how i think the process will go after studying everything:
the seniors are the first two candidates looked at and as previously discussed, the vote on them takes place at that moment. i believe both seniors get a yes vote from the committee(only 3 of the last 20 have been rejected) and two of the seven spots are now taken.
from there, the other 15 moderns are cut to 10. i believe the five gone will be dawson, grimm, kennedy, reed and tags.
then those 10 remaining are voted down to 5. i believe the players who make the final 5 are carter, kuechenberg, smith, wilson and woodson.
my opinion is that since carter made it all the way to a yes/no vote, he gets elected because why shun a player who you know is going to be in the HOF, especially the log jam it would create if he’s voted down with tim brown, jerry rice and the hold-over reed all upcoming canididates. however, this means now 4 of the 7 spots will be from just two positions.
smith is a no-brainer yes vote
woodson is a no-brainer yes vote
kuech gets a yes vote in his last yr of eligiblity, already making it to the final yes/no stage once before.
wilson gets a yes vote
so in my mind, the 2009 class will be: Bob Hayes, Claude Humphrey, Bob Kuechenberg, Cris Carter, Rod Woodson, Bruce Smith and Ralph Wilson.
that’s a great class if elected!!!!!
Very insightful analysis Chad. I didn’t realize Carter made it that far last time. It will be nice for Mr. Wilson if he’s able to get in while he can enjoy a little bit at 90 yrs old. I think he deserves induction but I wonder if every owner who owns a team for 40 years will think they should too? I wouldn’t vote for Jerry Jones!!!! He probably thinks he does a lot to make football better with his big fat ego.
Too bad Bob Hayes isn’t still alive. He was so sick for a long time and many people wished for his induction. I wonder how much his history of having a drug problem was held against him? I didn’t think football was as pure as baseball about it’s inductees and focused more on their career’s.
Brings me to a situation to which I’d be curious to know opinions. If it turns out Colt WR Marvin Harrison is guilty of shooting at someone and does prision time, will they induct him as soon as he’s available, make him wait some short period of time, many,many years or give him the Pete Rose treatment. One thing I believe, is if he is found guilty it will be seen as worse because the action was during his career. Any thoughts?
tony….
carter made the final 10 but not the yes/no stage in his first yr of eligibility in 2008.
though if i’m right and he makes the yes/no this yr, why vote him down and cause even more of a log-jam in the future with other WR’s coming up?
as far as hayes, most say that his off the field problems certainly couldn’t have helped his chances over the yrs. i think that will finally come to an end this yr.
i thought harrison was cleared of those charges, but if those are still pending against him, it won’t help his chances but shouldn’t really keep him out either. it certainly could delay his induction though.
Re Marvin Harrison: what he may or may not have done as far as shooting someone will not impact his HoF eligibility or (in theory) his chances of getting elected.
The PFHoF bylaws pointedly say that the only thing that matters for players in HoF membership consideration is what they did on the field. If they had a character clause like the one in the Baseball HoF, Paul Hornung for one would not be in because of his year-long gambling suspension (precisely the kind of thing that rightly landed Pete Rose on baseball’s ineligible list). And players with substance abuse histories such as Lawrence Taylor and Michael Irvin might not be in, either. Nor would we be discussing the likelihood of Ray Lewis’s election because of his arrest for murder/aggravated assault and subsequent plea bargain to a lesser obstruction of justice charge in 2001. Nor would Senior possibility Jim Tyrer’s name be likely considered because of his murder/suicide, nor would Alex Karras’s because of his gambling suspension that ran concurrently with Hornung’s.
I would like to ammend my earlier choices for the HOF after doing research and reading this website over the past several days. In order here are my choices.
1. Bruce Smith DE
2. Rod Woodson CB
3. Cris Carter WR
4. Randall McDaniel G
5. Bob Kuenchenberg G
6. Claude Humphrey DE
7. Bob Hayes WR
What has swung me on Hayes and Kuenchenberg is not only the individual achievments which all canidates seem to have, but the overall team sucsess they both contributed too. The other five members accomplishments speak for themselves.
Also could someone tell me more about Jim Tyrer’s situation as I have very little knowledge about what he was actually accused of?
Sadly, Jim Tyrer had an unsuccessful six years after his retirement from football, suffering among other things from a series of severe business reversals. It is thought this led to Tyrer murdering his wife and then killing himself in a domestic murder/suicide incident in 1980.
Billy, that’s a real good looking class and sounds very appropiate. The real wildcard is Ralph Wilson Jr. IMO.
That’s too bad about Tyrer. Guys from his time didn’t make a lot of money during there careers. It’s not uncommon to hear about a guy falling on real hard times by getting sucked into bad businesses. There was another great Chief named Joe Delaney? who died in a drowning trying to rescue someone in Louisiana. It was terribly sad. I think I remember him because he was traded to Miami before the accident? I wonder if he has HOF stats before he died? Sorry, I might have the story all messed up and I’m not researching.
The Chiefs had a lot of great teams in the 60’s into the 70’s. The Raiders had rivalries with everyone back than but it was the one with the Chiefs that I first remember and IMO was the most fierce. Ben Davidson played kind of mean Lol!!! He’s one of those wild characters that I suppose isn’t HOF material but you remember.
IMO the Chiefs are well represented in the HOF – mainly on Defense unlike Miami who’s on Offense. How about we put Miami’s Offense with the Chiefs Defense? LOL!! Anyone missing that belongs? Maybe Curly Culp? I remember him coming to Houston as a big deal. They already had a great players in Elvin Beathea,Ken Houston than got Robert Brazile. Ken Houston left for the Redskins but it was still a great Oiler Defense. They should of been to a Super Bowl if not for a blown call that’s still talked about around here. Mike Renfro was inbounds and Pittsburgh caught a break. No instant replay. I just glad I had the privilege of seeing every one of Earl Campbell’s games. He was one of a kind!! I think it was because of him that they made the jerseys less tear away.:)
Bachslunch – Do you remember Cedric Hardman and Tommy Hart?
Here’s an article about the 1976 “Gold Rush”
http://www.49ers.com/pressbox/news_detail.php?PRKey=1240
Hardman is the 49ers all=-time sack leader recorded with 112.5 plus he played for some other teams. I think they met Dallas in 2 or 3 NFC Championship Games. He ws great. Do you think he might be HOF material. Sounds like one for the Senior Commitee?
More Info:
NFL Career
Hardman is the current all-time sack leader for the San Francisco 49ers franchise, recording 112.5 sacks between 1970 and 1979.[3] Hardman was a two-time Pro Bowler in 1971 and 1975[4] and he was a member of the Oakland Raiders Super Bowl XV winning team
USFL Career
On October 20, 1982, Hardman was the first player ever signed by the Oakland Invaders of newly formed United States Football League.[6] Hardman served as a player/coach during the team’s inaugural 1983 division winning 9-9 season. Oakland Invaders were a professional American football team that played in the United States Football League in the mid-1980s. … The United States Football League was a professional American football league that played three seasons between 1983 and 1985. …
Joe Delaney’s career had gotten off to a fantastic start, but he played only two years, including the 1982 strike season, before he passed away.
Cedric Hardman had a very good career, but if people thought that Fred Dean was the worst player ever chosen for the HOF or that Claude Humphrey is a bad choise for the HOF, Cedric Hardman would be a real stretch. He is a classic example of the Hall of Very Good.
Guys – HOF announced they are having a Guess the Class of 2009 Contest:
https://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/Class_of_2009_contest.jsp
I’ve submitted my entry–let’s have someone from ZoneBlitz win the prize!
Vaguely remember Tommy Hart and Cedrick Hardman, and I can’t possibly improve on Billy’s comment about the latter — and then having it refer to both. Certainly very good but not HoF-ers both.
Harvey Martin would be a very interesting senior nominee.
he had 23 sacks in just a 14 gm season(1977), DPOY(1977), co-mvp of the SB, all-decade choice of the 70’s, all-time sack leader for the cowboys(more than Bob Lilly or Randy White) and lead the cowboys in sacks 7X during his career(1973-83).
very strange that he hasn’t been mentioned more for the HOF.
Cedric Hardeman sure sounds impressive. I remember him giving the SB winning Raiders a spark vs. the Eagles. Except for the Cowboys and Oilers and the big winners of the day, all the other players I’m not as familiar with so I have to compare statistics with other Hall of Famers.
Just to show you that PB and AP can depend a lot on the team your on. Hardeman had 112.5 sacks for a pretty good San Francisco team that went to 3 straight NFC Championship teams. He only made 2 PB’s while L.C. Greenwood is a 2/6 with the multiple SB winning Steelers. L.C. will probably will go to the HOF with his 73.5 sacks and deservedly so. I have a hunch L.C. wasn’t much better than Hardeman. I sure as heck wish I could remember these guys better from the 70’s. I mean I read about all of these sacks like with Hardeman having 22 in a season and I can’t say if he is or isn’t a HOF guy. It shows how a great player possibly can fall through the cracks. Throw him a couple PB’s but the winners get the bulk. I might submit his name and see what happens. Look at the 10 or 12 Cowboys who went to the PB last year. That PB is going to mean something to someone else someday. Or Favre going to the PB over Rivers at QB. They only wait until the 8 week mark in the season to vote. How dumb is that?
Also like Bachslunch hi-lighted before about tackles being accurately portrayed for the player. That would help if everyone if we could trust those numbers to better to analyze.
The system just appears to be flawed. The fans just have to trust that the voters are getting it right. That said lately I’ve been beginning to wonder. WR – Swann at 1/3, WR – Stallworth at 1/4. Of course when they let Swann in they had to let Stallworth in. And there’s Fred Dean 2/4 but now I’m really scratching my head over the choice of HOF Bear – Dan Hampton at 1/4. I know that guy played with a big heart but his post season isn’t that great. More than that is I don’t remember him being better than his teammate Steve McMichael at 2/2. Steve was a NT/DT with 95 sacks!! and Hampton mostly a DE had just 57 sack. My guy Bill Stanfill 1/5 went to two more SB’s and had 67 sacks. I don’t understand why Hampton got the nod over a brut like Steve who I believe was an Outland Trophy winner and one of the best Texas Longhorn Lineman in their history. I think he was over looked big time. Maybe there was another Nose Tackle getting all of the allcolades?
I was surprised that the Bears great Defense has very few players with post season alcolades. LB Otis Wilson had 1 PB and the only player who could make the HOF other than Dent or McMichael is C – Jay Hildenberg 2/7.
I’ve already thrown my support for Harvey Martin but when I look at a body of work it’s sure hard to ignore “Too Tall” Jones. I wish they had a count for blocked passes and passes made incomplete because of his athletism.
IMO and I’ve read many others, is that the Cowboys are the most snubbed team in the HOF. I always thought the Steelers Defense had coat tails for some players. Probably not really the case. Although I do believe Andy Russell 0/7 was a sentimental favorite many times. They had a #1 Defense for a few years. What’s funny is how little attention their OL got. C-Mike Webster and that’s it to the HOF. Of course they have two HOF WR’s and shouldn’t have that. In the end it will be Steelers HOF – C, QB, RB, WR, WR, DT, DE, MLB, OLB, C, S. 11 players off one team sounds like enough.
tony….
the cowboys do seem to be under-appreciated when it comes to the HOF.
what’s really strange is that all those great cowboy teams from the mid 60’s through the decade of the 70’s still don’t have a WR or LB in the HOF.
Bob Hayes, Harvey Martin, Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, Cornell Green, Drew Pearson: hard to believe that not one of those names is in the HOF?
IMO, hayes and howley should already be in with harris and martin having strong cases as well. plus it’s kind of funny as well because the avg person(even those that aren’t sports nuts) who lived back then probably knows those names above more than a lot of the players already in the HOF.
i think hayes gets elected this yr so atleast those cowboy teams who were so good from the mid-60’s through the 70’s will finally get a WR in the HOF…though still missing a LB in the HOF off those teams.
the cowboys from 1965-69 won like 50 games and in the decade of the 70’s, had more wins than any other team; much less 5 SB’s and 2 SB titles in the decade of the 70’s as well.
what if Jackie Smith catches that TD right in his hands vs the steelers??
Good points Chad. It’s not like the Steelers were that much better than the Cowboy’s in the 70’s. Dallas like Miami had a reputation for having a finese Defense which equals soft in the eyes of many. Poppycock!! Not only Smith’s dropped TD but phantom Benny Barnes pass interference call. Dallas’ team the year before in 1977 that beat Denver was one of the best ever. They went 8-0 then lost to nemises St.Loius and Pittsburgh then went 8-0 winning out. Their Defense was awesome. Speaking of Jethro Pugh. One of the Dallas greats not to get attention except for Bart Starr scoring in ICE Bowl on his spot.
List of Dallas Greats left out of HOF are:
Bob Hayes 2/3, Chuck Howley 5/6, Cliff Harris 3/6, Cornell Green 3/5, Drew Pearson 3/3,John Niland 2/6, Don Perkins 1/6, LeRoy Jordan 1/5, George Andrie 1/5, Harvey Martin 1/4, Emerson Walls 1/4, Calvin Hill 1/4, Too Tall Jones 1/3,
Don Meredith 0/3, Tony Hill 0/3
1970 SB Losers
1971 SB Winning Cowboy’s in the HOF – Bob Lilly, Mel Renfro &(’77SB), Rayfield Wright &(’77SB), Roger Staubach &(’77SB)
1975 SB Losers
1977 SB Winning Cowboy’s in the HOF – Randy White, Tony Dorsett
1978 SB Losers
Dallas have (4) 1960’s and (2) 1970’s HOF Members or 6 Total for 2 Super Bowl wins and 3 Losses. About to be (5)’60’s.
Note: Tony Dorsett was only a 1/4. Sometimes there are 3 or 4 HOF’s which keeps a HOF caliber player’s post season down. There were some really great RB’s in the early ’80’s.
Pittsburgh has (9) 1970’s HOF Members for 4 Super Bowl Wins
I project Steelers get 2 more HOF in L.C. Greenwood 2/6 and Donnie Shell 3/5 for total of (11)HOF’s
’70’s Dallas has the potential to catch up to ’70’s Steelers amount. :)
I still can’t believe Jim Jeffcoat never went to a Pro Bowl as important as he was for Dallas’s DL. Same for 20 years of Viking’s Jim Marshall who played 282 consecutive games.
Thinking of Dallas and NFC Championships I just thought of a great Philly RB who I remember as a HOF player. The name is Wilbert Montgomery a 2 time PB. I’d put him as one of the top all-time running backs I’ve seen. I’d put him in the HOF. All-time Eagles Rushing leader, one year had 1,402 yds and 4.9 avg and No PB that year. Dumb
tony….
all good points!
you mention the 77 cowboys as al all-time great, but don’t also forget the 71 cowboys, who to me were an all-time great team too.
they were 11-3 that yr and won their last 10 gms in a row after finally settling on a QB between staubach and morton.
the cowboys not only had a great def that season, but also had an offense that finished #1 in both pts and yards in the NFL.
the cowboys pass offense ranked 2nd that yr in the NFL with Bob Hayes leading them in receiving yards and receiving TD’s. Hayes lead the NFL in YPC that yr(24.0), while also him placing high around the league in receiving yards(7th)and receiving TD’s(4th).
hayes’ 840 receiving yards was almost twice as much as the next closest cowboy WR(Lance Alworth)and his 8 receiving TD’s was almost three times as many as the next closest cowboy(Calvin Hill).
those cowboys won a huge game in minnesota during the division round of the playoffs with Bob Hayes catching a 9-yrd TD pass in the 2nd half that pretty much sealed the gm in dallas’ favor….giving them a 20-3 lead.
they won a pretty tight game vs SF in the NFC championship and then rolled a very good miami team in the SB, 24-3.
Of the Dallas Cowboys mentioned above, I can see especially good cases for Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson. Cornell Green wouldn’t be the worst choice either, but the waiting list of Senior DBs is really long.
The rest look to me like Hall of the Very Good types.
Chad,
I don’t think I like talking about the Cowboys with you anymore.:)Lol!! It’s getting to painful. Thanks for not describing the 24-3 loss in anymore detail. :) If so I might have to pull out the Steelers card on you. Lol!!
I was in Minnesota when Dallas won 20-12. For some reason I remember the Vikings as being the favored team. That was a great win in the elements. Of course that wasn’t entirely new to Dallas. I think that SB had the greatest loss from the line of scrimmage in the history of football. Lol!! All I know is Griese keep zig-zagging backwards until he crumpled into a heap. I was yelling at the TV.:( Also I remember being down 10-3 at halftime and never remembering a game being more over than that one. The FG was a fluke because we did nothing on Offense. If I was a Cowboy fan I would of felt pretty good about a win. When Howley made his interception I was sick with disbelief. It was a real bad loss if you were a Dolphin fan after an playoffs. But our guys made history the next year largely due to that defeat. Always a silver lining somewhere. I wonder if RB – Duane Thomas still refuses to talk to people.Lol!! Strange cat!!!
So do you want to take your 1971 Cowboys to beat my 1973 Dolphins (which IMO is one of the all-time best) or your 1977 Cowboys? I’ve thought about it and I know who I’d take.:)
I said I wouldn’t do this again but some background just because I’m a blabber mouth about my Dolphins. I was 10 years old and a geek for football. Not much has changed. Lol!! The “73 Dolphins went 12-2. Their Defense allowed only 10.7 ppg and over 17 games. They only allowed more than 16 pts two times, 23 and 26 respectfully both in wins. Their Offense scored 24.5 ppg. They weren’t ranked number 1 across the board in O and D like the undefeated “72 Dolphins but everyone was gunning for the Champs and they still were #1 in pts allowed.
That year the Dolphins beat the Cowboys in Dallas in a typically flashy 14 -7 win for their 9th in a row. They beat Pittsburgh the next week 30-26 for number 10. Their schedule was a little tougher than the previous year. :) Last year when NE made their run everyone hammered on the fins easy schedule. That year Miami lost to Oakland and Baltimore who was always tough on Miami in the “70’s
Who ever heard of passing 7 times in a game let alone a Super Bowl even in the “70’s Lol!! I loved it. Nothing more humiliating for an opponent. Shula was great at finding something that worked and not being afraid to do it over and over. I might be wrong but a lot of that may of been Bob Griese calling the plays too. How many QB’s will let their ego stay out of the play. QB’s love to pass the ball. Anyway Chuck Foreman, the Viking’s rookie RB sensation, gained only 18yds on 7 carries. No one refers to Miami’s great Defenses just like people rarely talk about the Dolphins in the history of great teams. Maybe folks viewed the Offense as boring? Or maybe the Steelers were too dominating? All I know is over a 5 year period their winning percentage was the all-time best. Damn the Raiders 28-26 and damn the WFL.:)
Pittsburgh Steelers vs. Arizona Cardinals in SB 43. Wow!! Talk about a tail of two completely different team histories. I don’t hate the Steelers like I used to in the 70’s. They seem to represent football the way it used to be played. I like Big Ben and their Defense. I also really like Kurt Warner and the Cardinal story. I hate it when I can’t pick a favorite to root for in the SB. Last year was easy. :) I actually hate to see a loser in this one. I guess when in doubt I’ll stick with the AFC. At least I don’t have to look at Terry Bradshaw’s mug if Pitt. wins because the SB is on NBC, hmmm. It’s a Madden and Michaels Supel Bowl.
If Pittsburgh wins they break the Super Bowl tie with Dallas and San Fran for 5 SB wins with 6. Dallas has still been to the most = 8. Sorry Chad, but IMO they’ll be lucky to go to another one with Jerry Jones in charge. Parcells was their best shot. Yes men won’t get it done. Maybe, Cowhers? Got to keep the drama to a minimum.
What my last post showed me through research is that maybe the Cowboys aren’t being treated so poorly by the HOF in numbers compared to the Steelers. It’s just taking a while. The thing about the Steelers is they were going in bang, bang, bang without having to wait. All of the Dolphins had to wait more than 6 years, even Larry Little.
Bachslunch, will there be a point when they stop with the Senior Committee? Or will there always be a chance for someone who might of fallen through the cracks? Maybe we’ll start to see years with no nominations? I agree mainly on Howley and Harris but wouldn’t be surprised if a Cowboy outside those four slips in. If football was more like baseball with the character influence Calvin Hill would have a better chance?
Anyone, what do you think about modern players elected to the HOF who have never been an All-Pro? Is is right? Tony Dorsett was a 1/4, does it surprise you that he didn’t have to wait to get into the HOF? I wonder how much his outstanding College career helped influence the voters? Can anyone think of a travesty in football as big as the Baseball HOF not selecting P- Bert Blyleven with his 287 wins?
The magic number of 1,000 yds rushing is now equal to 1,143 yds in a 16 game season.
The End.
Out of all The Coboys that could be in the Hall that are not, I would rank them like this.
1. Harvey Martin
2. Cliff Harris
3. Chuck Howley
4. Bob Hays
5. Lee Roy Jordan
6. jay Novacek
Sorry, but I don’t see the so-called Anti-Cowboys Bias in HOF voting. If anything, the support for Bob Hayes (who’s historical significance is vastly over-stated and was only an above average WR for his first 3-4 years) is proof that selectors are looking high and low for worthy Cowboys. Like the 49ers and Redskins of the 80s, the 70s Cowboys were great teams with few super star players. The HOF is not for above average players that happened to play for winning teams. It is instead a celebration of the all-time greats regardless of where those players played.
For example, the 80s Oilers already have three HOFers with Moon, Munchak, and Matthews. This number is equal to the likely number of 49ers from the same period: Montana, Lott, and Rice (not counting Dean whose career ended before the back-to-back championships and Young whose career was later). The Oilers’ 3 is also equal to the number of Redskins: Monk, Green, and Riggins. Does this mean that the 49ers with their 4 Super Bowls and Redskins with their 3 are under-represented? Are the Oilers over-represented? The answer is probably neither. While the election of Jacoby, Grimm, and/or Craig wouldn’t be an embarrassment, neither is their absence. On the other hand, Munchak and Matthews were beastly offensive lineman and Moon’s numbers (even excluding his exile to the CFL ) are simply too much to ignore.
If anything, HOF voters greatly over-emphasize playing for a winning team (Swann and Stallworth are prime examples, but so are Dan Hampton and Jim Kelly). The list of HOF-caliber players who were forced to play for largely losing teams and therefore have not been elected is far too long. Think about guys like Rickey Jackson, Sam Mills, Cortez Kennedy, Joe Klecko, Kenny Easley, Leslie O’Neal, etc. If those guys played for one of the dominate teams of the 80s or 90s, they would have much easier times being elected. I’ll throw out three more great, great players from recent memory who will struggle or never make the hall simply because they played for Atlanta, Arizona, and Cincinnati respectively: Jessie Tuggle (0/6), Aeneas Williams (3/8), and Willie Anderson (3/4). While their post-season numbers may not be overwhelming, those were also affected by where they played (especially Anderson, who didn’t suddenly become a dominating left tackle in his late 20s, but simply was ignored prior to the arrival of Marvin Lewis and Carson Palmer). All three players were excellent on the field, but played for losing franchises and never received the recognition they deserved.
And I’m sure that I’m forgetting a dozen similar players.
Billy, Although several of those Cowboys have the credentials I’m not sure about HOF. I think of the ones I saw
You know I have an idea. How about we put our discussions of Senior players to good use? The HOF will be collecting names for the Senior Committee to review. The names must be in by March 1st. If anyone using this board is interested we can submit a list of players.
*For example say we have 5 interested people.
*You will research and submit to the board the names of five players (who retired before 1984)in the order you want for the HOF. (We will work on one person’s names at a time to avoid submitting duplicate players.)
*Each one of us will vote yea or nay on eachother’s list.
*In order for a player to make the HOF List you must get 4 out of 5 approval or 80% yea of the group to agree on that player.
*If there’s no agreement you may chose one person to debate and get on your side. If there’s a change you may select another person to debate if necessary and so on until the vote is final. Remember, be flexible. The purpose of getting agreement is to have a better chance for your player with the Committee. :)
* The objective is for each one of us to contribute 2 players to a list that I’ll send in a letter to the HOF.
*If none of the five players or only one of the five you submit are chosen you will than submit additional names in number needed to complete your two. You have the option to finish or pass to the next person’s list of 5. You can re-enter at the end of anyone’s turn.
*When your two players are picked for the list, write a brief summary in support of each player. Be as persuasive as possible. :)
* If one of us is lucky enough to have one of our two players chosen for a vote by the Senior Committee that person will be rewarded (will be explained in a e-mail). It’ll be an on your honor thing in I think October. A hint -It will be equal to a 1′ long Subway Sandwich. Lol!!
Let me know who’s interested? Are there 5 people out there? We have until approx. Feb. 20th to make a list of 10 or so players so we can do at our leisure. Changes to make better? If you all want we will only visit board during the week? Or you can check daily? Or pick a day to vote? It will make the board more funner for a while. :) I hope. Lol!!
First we need to get a list of people to play. Chad? Justin? Billy? Jason? Bachslunch?
Justin,
You’re right about the Cowboy’s and lack of superstars. The Boys of the “90’s had many more. Maybe the sign of the times and how teams used to play? I know in basketbal, team play was stressed more it seemed.
There usually is a reason a OL player makes the Pro-Bowl besides his good play. Something has to happen to get noticed. True the Oilers were a bad team in the 1980’s but Munchak was discovered blocking for Earl Campbell in a year where he was having a return to his old form after an off year. Campbell made the PB and subsequently Munchak did too in a year the Oilers went 2-14. It seems fair that an O-Lineman must be providing a good result. I suspect someone else or the Team was sucessful for Willie Anderson to finally be noticed and make the PB. He’s probably the same guy but it’s the way it goes. Sure it isn’t an exact science. :)
After that Munchak had a run of PB’s just on the merit that he was recognized as good. But that good will ran out. Once again he had to get noticed. The next year the Oilers finally made it to the playoffs and RB- Rozier was named to PB and subsequently Munchak was named as an All-Pro with a PB this time.
Voters really do have to weigh the number of post season numbers in most cases or it could get really confusing saying well he went to this many PB but should of went to ? That’s why OL is the toughest to pick because they have no statistics at all and Defense is pretty tough too without seeing the guy play. You can’t measure intensity and sure tackling.
I personally think it’s good to try to get a good sampling from the greatest teams of the day if possible to see what type of players made them great. That said, I certianly don’t agree with the very borderline player such as Lynn Swann and Dan Hampton. And I certianly don’t want to overlook deserving players for the lesser winning teams.
I agree with some of the names you mentioned while others I view as All-Time Greats for their franchises but IMO not belonging in the HOF. There again we’re talking about defensive players which are some of the toughest to agree on. I noticed some of these players went right to the question I had earlier about whether a player who was never an All-Pro (viewed as the best at his position even once during his career) should go into the HOF. Seems like you have to look at why, like maybe too many HOFers for the same time at that position. You can have a Jerry Rice or a Mike Singletary taking up one spot your whole career.
SF RB – Roger Craig is IMO the best Rushing/Receiving player of all-time. Statistically, I think that holds true and he should be a HOF member soon. He anililated Dan “The Man’s” only chance at a Super Bowl.
Tony P:
Thanks for the thoughtful response. While I agree the great teams need to be represented in the Hall, I strongly believe that borderline HOFers from some of the dynasties have (and continue to) blocked candidates from less successful teams.
One small disagreement with your comments on Craig. For my money (and I realize this is subjective), Marshal Faulk was the best Rushing/Receiving player in history. While Craig may have done it first, Faulk did everything Craig (and Thurman Thomas) did and more. As for whether Craig is a HOF caliber player, I’ll say no for now, but he is certainly worthy of a full hearing before the committee. He certainty would not be least qualified member of the HOF if he got in.
For my money Roger Craig is a HOF because he “was” Thurman Thomas before Thomas. Sometimes you just need to pass the “eye” test and throw ou numbers and pro bowl and All-Pro recognition. That is what got guys like Ray Nitschke, John Riggins, Frank Gatski, Ollie Matson, Emmitt Thomas in the HOF. These are the Top players that my “eyes” have seen not to be in the HOF. Or be considered this year.
1. Lester Hayes CB
2. Stanley Morgan WR
3. Russ Grimm G
4. Roger Craig RB
5. Phill Simms QB
6. Coy Bacon DE
7. Harvey Martin DE
8. Harold Carmichael WR
9. Ray Guy P
10. Kenny Easley S
11. L.C. Greenwood DE
12. Chris Hanburger LB
Craig is, I believe, still the only person to reach 1,000 yards rushing and 1,000 yards receiving in the same season – that alone certainly doesn’t qualify him, and he has been surpassed by guys like Faulk, but it’s worthy of note.
Personally I think he comes up just a little short. He had only three 1,000 yard rushing seasons, I was surprised to read.
But he definitely had some good, good seasons.
marshall Faulk also had a 1000 yard rushing 1000 yard receiving season for 2429 yards from scrimmage for the record in a season
Justin, my bad I have a habit of overlooking the more recent players. When you compare players where do you draw the lines? I guess I’d compare 1960 thru 1980 and 1980 to around 1995.
As you know around 1980 teams started passing more with the beginning of the “West Coast Offense” and than some time in the 90’s with the Cowboys the O-Lineman started to all look like Erik Williams over that 300lb mark. Now 330lbs is normal. Plus at some point the players bought into the year long off season weight programs.
Roger Craig’s 13,100 yards from scrimmage is a lot. NFL Offensive POY. Two times he had over 2,000 yScm and 7 times over 1,000 yScm. He was the first (maybe the only?) RB to go for 1,000 yds rushing and 1,000 recv.in the same year. He was a FB for half of his career.
The 49ers had a lot of other weapons with Freddie Solomon, Dwight Clark, Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Brent Jones and Tom Rathman. Craig will definetly get in but will take time.
Mid-70’s teams ran the ball 10 more times a game. (37 to 27). Mid- 70’s teams completed 7 fewer passes a game. (13 to 20). Avg rush for 2008 is at its highest at 4.2 but not real unusual. Range is always between 3.7 and 4.2.
4 yds a rush is average for a RB.
tony…
i think the 77 cowboys were a little stronger than the 71 boys, but it’s really close; two all-time great teams for sure!!
i think the 73 fins would’ve had trouble with either cowboy team because of that ‘flex’ defense of the cowboys. the ‘flex’ was normally hard to run on and the key to the dolphins attack was normally their great running game.
i think bob hayes in 71 would be hard for the dolphins secondary to match up with and they then would have to play a lot of zone, leaving them vulnerable to the powerful cowboy running attack in 71.
i think the 77 cowboys lacked a game-breaking freak like hayes, but pearson(obviously) and even a Tony Hill were a dominant WR duo that again the dolphins would have trouble with. if the fins take the two WR’s away, then Dorsett takes over.
i think either cowboy offense(71 or 77) moves the ball on the 73 fins, but the true outcome of the game comes down to that great dolphin offensive line vs ‘doomsday’; both the 71 and 77 cowboy defensive lines were devestating.
also, just off the top of my head when talking about possible senior selections: Otis Taylor, Tommy Nobis, Chuck Howley, Pete Retzlaf, Dave Robinson, Art Powell, Harvey Martin, Jerry Kramer, Johnny Robinson….
i too believe that Craig should be a HOF in time. the niners were good for so long and had such a dominant offense with the RB playing such a vitale role, it’s hard not to notice that kind of consistent success. the 49ers would not be the team they become in the 80’s without Craig(IMO).
Billy….
all the cowboys you mention for the HOF certainly would have good cases except for Novacek:
martin’s merits have been discussed on here already; harris once made the the final 10 cut as did Lee Roy Jordan; hayes and howley should already be in(IMO)….hayes is a senior candidate this yr and will probably make it(only 3 of the last 20 have not).
if hayes does get elected, it will be the first WR of the cowboys to get in off all those great teams from the mid 60’s through the decade of the 70’s; and i say it’s been long over-due!!!
those cowboys from 1965-79 ranked #1 four times on offense in the NFL, had the 2nd ranked NFL offense three more times and ranked 5th and 6th in the NFL on offense two other seasons. that’s atleast 8 times in the top 5 of NFL offense during the 15 year period above and every year of that era(1965-79) the cowboys ranked atleast in the top 10 on offense.
the cowboys from 1965-69 won 50 games and the decade of the 70’s they had more wins than any other team.
also from 1965-79, dallas made the playoffs 13 times, played in 9 conference championship games, won 11 division titles, went to 5 SB’s….winning two of them and losing the other 3 by a combined 11 points(darn you Jackie Smith…LOL).
for the cowboys offense to be that effective(as described above)on a team that won with that much consistency, i again find it hard to beleive the cowboys did all that without greatness from the WR position. staubach, meredeth and morton were throwing to somebody weren’t they??
hayes and pearson are certainly(not unreasonable) worthy enough candidates and it’s been long over-due that one finally be elected off those great cowboy teams above. hopefully, it’s hayes’ time this yr and who knows with pearson in the future?
it’s also hard to believe that with all the success the raiders had from the mid 60’s through even the early 80’s, that they still don’t have a QB from that era in the HOF(not counting blanda). the most important position on a team and despite all that winning by the raiders, still no QB in the HOF…even with what seems worthy enough candidates like Stabler and Lamonica.
Chad:
Your argument for Hayes does not hold up to scrutiny. Effectively you have argued that winning equals individual greatness. That there is no way that the 1970’s Cowboys could win as much as they did without HOF caliber Wr’s. In comparison, the three QBs with the most wins in NFL history are, in order, Favre, Elway, and Marino. Their teams won a lot of games, but not one of them had a HOF caliber WR (although Elway did have Shannon Sharpe at TE for a few years near the end). In fact, no WR is even close (all apologies to Marks Brothers fans … Clayton was very good, but not great and Duper was simply famous).
Just like the 80s/90s Packers, Broncos, and Dolphins, the 70s Cowboys won with solid defense and superior QB play.
In fact, there are lots of great teams that had good, but not great WRs: 80s Bears, 80/90s Giants, and 00s Patriots (pre-Moss).
Therefore, winning does not necessarily equal HOF caliber players. If one looks at Hayes’ numbers they fall well short of HOF status. If you look at his legacy, you quickly realize that it has been over-blown (there was spead before him and zone defenses developed at least a decade before he played). If you look at his relative dominance compared to his peers, Hayes looks a lot like Haywood Jeffires, Andre Rison, Herman Moore, or Chad Johnson. That is not a HOF WR.
Justin….
first of all, let me say that i stand by everything i wrote in my previous post when it’s concerning all those dominant cowboy teams i talked about from 1965-79.
also, i wouldn’t say that meredeth, morton or a young pup staubach(very early 70’s) were anything close to the QB’s you mentioned or even be considered superior(good but certainly not great).
in fact, morton had ligament damage in his right elbow for a lot of the 1970 season(morton’s posteason numbers that yr were horrid) and then the cowboys rotated QB’s the first seven games the next season in 71; the cowboys still went to two straight SB’s those yrs.
also, certainly in the SB years 1970 and 71, the cowboys recipe for winning was a strong running game, great defense and the long ball to bob hayes(much less his prowess as a decoy).
now, when it comes to bob hayes, i’ve checked different websites, blogs and message boards for the following info i’m going to give you here….take this as you wish:
when compared to other of his contempararies including Fred Biletnikoff, Charley Taylor, Bobby Mitchell and Paul Warfield(all HOF’s), hayes six different times during his career finished in the top 10 of receiving yards(with three of those in the top 5);that’s a greater ratio than any of the afore mentioned had.
hayes also finished six times in the top five of receiving TD’s during his career. again, that’s more than any of the afore-mentioned.
speaking of top 10/top 5 statistical finishes during his career, hayes has 38 yearly top 10 finishes(24 of those in the top 5) in all the major WR categories(receptions, receiving yards, receiving TD’s, total TD’s, YPC, receiving YPG, all-purpose yards and YFS).
there’s only like five or six WR’s(not counting those in the 40’s and earler) who have that many or more finishes as hayes…and all them are in the HOF except for jerry rice who soon will be.
hayes had five 10 plus TD receiving seasons and just missed his sixth 10 plus TD receiving season in a row, when in 1969 he missed four games(injured)…skewing his production totals across the board.
if hayes played that whole season, there’s every chance he gets 10 plus TD’s that yr, much less if that would’ve been a 16 game season instead of a 14 game one; hayes’other 10 plus TD seasons all came in 14 game years.
only Marvin Harrison and Jerry Rice have six consecutive 10 plus TD receiving seasons. in fact, only seven other players besides hayes even have five 10 plus TD receiving seasons:rice, harrison, alworth, Cris Carter, TO, Randy Moss and Art Powell.
hayes 49 TD catches in his first five seasons is more than any WR in their first five seasons except for alworth, rice and moss. moss and hayes are the only WR’s to have five 10 plus TD receiving seasons in their first six years.
just look at the two most recent HOF WR’s(irvin and monk), irvin only had one 10 plus TD receiving season(monk none) and their combined top 10 finishes are 40(irvin 30….monk 10), just two ahead of hayes’ 38. and in top 5 finishes, hayes’ 24 tops them two combined(irvin 16…monk 7).
i can’t believe you said thay hayes’ first four yrs were just above-average(???). i’m not sure what bob hayes you were watching then.
he had a dominant prime of atleast seven yrs from 1965-71 where his first four yrs he was either voted to the pro-bowl or 1st-team all-pro(was both in 1966); his 5th yr was skewed by injury though he still put up respectable numbers; his sixth year in 1970 he had 10 plus TD catches and finished statistically high in almost every WR category…he missed the pro-bowl but remember warfield made it in the afc that year with less catches, receiving yards and receiving TD’s than hayes.
and i’ve already discussed the merits of hayes’ 1971 season in a previous post, certainly he was more than above-average that yr too.
what makes hayes even more impressive in this era is that most of those yrs in his prime, teams were trying there best to take him away and he still thrived, not to mention the success of his team-mates with the attention hayes got.
remember, the cowboys before hayes arrived never had a wining record even with a roster of meredeth, perkins, lilly, howley, jordan, greene, renfro, andrie(etc); the cowboys defense though did finsih 4th in 1964 but the offense was nill.
hayes arrives in 1965 and the cowboys miss the playoffs only once through 1971. the big difference was offense because the defense stayed solid, though now with hayes the offense took off. in the next seven yrs with hayes starting in 65, the cowboys offense ranked #1(66,68,71) or #2(69) in the nfl 4 times and was in the top 10 all seven yrs.
the cowboys in that seven yr era went 70-26-2 with 6 div titles, 4 conf champ gams, 2 SB’s and one SB title. again, dallas before hayes arrived never had a winning record.
now hayes doesn’t get all the credit for the turnaround and the O-line did improve too, but with hayes getting double and sometimes triple coverage, the o-line was made better by him too. if a line-backer and saftey are dropping off to watch hayes, that directly takes two run defenders and two possible blitzers out of the play, making the o-lines job much easier.
Herb Adderly, who is a big hayes supporter, talks about this when the packers would play dallas and that hayes was the only WR the packers used this defense on, including not using it on other star WR’s like warfield or biletnikoff(i’ll try to link up the interview later).
hayes may have not had the longest career or extended prime, but for my money, his historical talents and production in his prime of atleast seven years, much less the impact we hear all the time he had on pass defense(changed the game) is enough for me to put him in the HOF, much less as a senior nominee and the long wait he’s had for induction.
main-stream opinion(the hof snub arguments made about hayes all the time) has said the same and i fully expect him to get voted in this yr, as most do.
Adderly, Sam Huff, Dave Robinson, Don Shula, Mike Ditka are just a few that also believe this and there has seemed recently to be a major ground-swell of support(of what i’ve heard) to get hayes in the HOF, both from committee members and HOF’s; which is probably why he was brought back so soon after his surprising rejection in 04….he made it to the final 6 that yr as a senior but for some reason was pulled back; he made it farther in the process than art monk the same yr(monk didn’t make the final 6 in 04). monk is now in the HOF.
also justin…..
hayes was a tremendous return man early in his career. in fact, hayes’ (20.0yrd)avg for punt return in 1968 lead the nfl and no one since 1968 has had a (20.0yrd)or more avg for punt return(40 yrs and still no ones done it)!!!
and for what’s it worth to you, hayes also ranks high in cowboy allure.
he still holds or shares 22 franchise records(more than irvin) and is in their ring of honor.
hayes in cowboy history ranks 1st in TD catches(more than irvin), third in total TD’s scored, third in pts scored and 4th in combined yardage. by those ranknings, he ranks ahead of irvin in three of the four categories(TD catches, total TD’s and pts scored) and the only players who rank ahead of him on those lists are all HOF’s except for Emmitt Smith…who will be next yr.
actually, a non HOF Rafeal Septien is ahead of hayes on the scoring list, but considering he was one of the NFL’s best kickers for his almost decade tenure in dallas, it’s understandable he’d be on the list.
again, bob hayes gets my FULL SUPPORT for induction into the HOF, as i believe will happen next week.
Justin – 80s/90s Packers? They didn’t win in the 80’s with defense. They didn’t win period. They had two winning seasons–1989 (10-6) and 1982 (strike shortened 5-3-1). They had four 8-8 seasons, and outside of that the most wins they had was 5. I seem to remember them being one of the worst teams of the 80’s. And 70’s, for that matter.
here now is part of a letter sent by Herb Adderly to the Pro Football Hall Of Fame that he publicly let be revealed(i’ve paraphrased some of the content):
Dear Pro Football Hall Of Fame(PFHOF),
When do you think someone is going to remind the PFHOF senior committee that Bob Hayes revolutionized the WR position?
He forced defenses to use double and triple coverage on him. There is no WR in the HOF who had more of an impact on the game. Rice may be the greatest WR of all time(by the stats), but he didn’t have more of an impact on the game than Hayes.
Back in my day, my Packer team-mate Dave Robinson, took away the short passes from Hayes while our FS Willie Wood, tried to take away the post routes. And I prayed that he wouldn’t run a fly route because I knew that I couldn’t stay with him.
Triple coverage and he still made plays. Hayes paid his dues on the field and it’s past time for him to receive the necessary votes to be enshrined in the PFHOF.
Herb Adderly
Mantua, N.J.
Pro Football Hall Of Fame Class Of 1980
Justin, it sounds like Herb Adderly would disagree with you on your opinion of Bob Hayes.
Chad,
I’m sure Bob Hayes will make the HOF with that kind of support. I didn’t support him until I looked at the numbers. I believe he was great long enough. Herb Adderly was also Hayes’s teammate on the 1971 SB team.
You better take the 1971 Cowboys to beat my 1973 Dolphins. As I’ve reflected on the 1977 Cowboys. I remember their flaws. I can pick the “77 team apart with “71 players. The CB’s for one. Aaron Kyle vs Mel Renfro? Benny Barnes vs Herb Adderly? Or Bob Breuning vs LeRoy Jordan? Or Calvin Hill,Walt Garrison and Duane Thomas vs Tony Dorsett,Robert Newhouse and Preston Pearson? Or an old Chuck Howley vs an old DD Lewis? Roger Staubach 29 vs 35? Golden Richards and Drew Pearson vs Bob Hayes and Lance Alworth? Or Billy Joe DuPree vs Mike Ditka? or Randy White vs Bob Lilly? I know there are many more. That “71 offense scored a shde under 30 pts a game and the defense allowed the same at 15 pts.
I’m not sure when the Flex Defense began but I remember lots of conversation through the mid to late 70’s about Dallas having difficulty stopping the run. I know by 78-79 stopping the run was a problem. I remember the Cardinal’s rookie Ottis Anderson going for over 200 yds in a game. I believe teams had began to learn how to go against it. Pittsburgh never had a problem with it. Does anyone use a version of it now?
I’ll remind you that Miami beat Pittsburgh in 1972 and 1973. Dallas played them at a different time so it doesn’t prove a lot accept Miami was as legit as anyone when they played the big boys. Don’t think the Cowboys would just roll over my Dolphins.:) In the AFC Championship Miami beat Baltimore in ’71, Pittsburgh in’72 Oakland in ’73, Washington “72 SB, Minnesota “73 SB, and lost to Oakland in ’74 so they played the best of the best. Not like today’s Cardinals beating Philly. Lol!! Too much parity today. Seems like any team in the playoffs can go to the SB.
1972 Miami went 14-0 than had to go to Pittsburgh for the AFC Championship to beat them with our back-up QB. How silly is winning all your games and going on the road? They knocked Bradshaw out for part of the game with a concusion and to this day, I heard him on his Pre-game show talk about how the Dolphins weren’t very good and they should of won the game. I’m sure the guy has brain damage from all of the hits.:) Lol!! I wonder what his excuse fore the next year was. Oh ya didn’t it take a miracle catch for him to even play Miami. Lol!!
In the mid-70’s Dallas routinely would get behind other teams and to Roger Staubach’s credit he would provide awesome 4th qtr come from behind wins. IMO Staubach is in the top five QB’s for the two-minute drill. The 1971 Cowboys Offense was more versatile and high powered, and Defense was more disciplined than 1977. Only advantages the for the ’77 team was their Defensive pass rush and a more seasoned QB. ’71 Cowboys were far better and proved it against better teams who had QB’s Tarkington, Brodie, and Griese compared to Avellini, Lee, and Morton.
I remember when the 1973 Dolphins played the 1977 Cowboys. :) This is what happened that day.
The 1973 Dolphins Great Defense stopped Dorsett throughout the game as they did Chuck Foreman in an earlier SB. You have to remember Miami won the SB the previous year. For many of Dallas’s players it was a new experience.
In the first drive Drew Pearson caught a couple mid-range sideline passes. Dallas found running difficult. Miami’s was famous for bending without breaking. Dallas settled for a Herrera 42 yd FG on the first drive and goes up 3-0. On Miami’s first drive they have some success running for a 1st down but the drive boggs down as the Dallas’ pass rush gets the best of Griese with a sack by a blitzing Hollywood Henderson and hurries are a factor too. Miami punts the ball to the Dallas 25 yd line. Dallas is able to gain short yardage on runs by Dorsett but it’s a screen pass to Newhouse some clutch short 3rd down passes to P. Pearson and DuPree that allow for the biggest gains. Dallas had thought coming into the game that Dorsett but it’s not happening early on. Dallas is gain momentum and time. Clearly Miami’s Defense is not giving up yardage easily. Dallas reaches the Miami 38 before Jake Scott intercepts a Staubach pass deep in Miami territory intended across the middle for Golden Richards. A lost opportunity that ends the first qtr at 3-0. Both QB’s are dealing with lots pressure.
Miami starts the 2nd qtr at their 13, moves the ball by pounding Csonka up the middle consecutive times for a 1st down. That’s the first success running ball with Csonka. Doesn’t last long however Griese scrambles for a another 1st down. Griese tries to open game up but is harrassed by a relentless pass rush. Griese realizes he must throw more and be on the move. He must loosen the D for the running game. Miami’s had very little Offensive success compared to Dallas so far. Both defenses are sharp and relentless. Miami is stopped and punts the ball to Butch Johnson who makes a nice return to mid-field. Dallas strikes quickly with a 25 yd pass to Drew Pearson along the Miami sideline that goes to the Miami 25 yd line. Best throw of the game for Staubach. Their run still isn’t working well but Staubach is having some success with pass depite being hurried. Next, Preston Pearson catches a key 3rd down pass that goes to Miami’s 5 yd line. Tony Dorsett cashes in right away with a pitch wide and runs it into the end zone for the games 1st TD!! It’s Dorsett’s only success of the 1st half. He went in untouched. Dallas leads 10 Miami 0 and clearly looks to be in control.
With nearly 10 minutes before half Miami gets the ball at their 25. They begin to move the ball methodically down the field using Csonka up the middle and mixing in pitch outs to Morris around end and short dumps offs to Kiick. Looking for the run on third and two Griese throws a 10 yd pass to TE Mandich over the middle catching LB’s Brueing and Hollywood cheating and out running veteran DD Lewis to the sideline for a 22 yd gain. The ball is now well into Dallas territory at the 32 yd line. Mercury Morris runs a sweep with Larry Little, Bob Kuechenberg pulling for a 15 yd gain. Csonka plows up the middle carrying Cowboys for 9 yds. At the 8 with 3rd and 1 Griese fakes to Csonka and he rolls right and hits Warfield across the middle of the End Zone for a TD!! The drive has taken all but :45 of the clock and the score is now 10-7 Dallas. Dallas is able to move the ball mid-field but time runs out.
Both QB’s have had to rely more on the pass than is usual. Griese has passed frequently for him and is 7-12-75yds and Staubach is not as accurate at 35 yrs old as he’d like being a 9-19-140yds. Dallas’s run game has been consistantly stuffed by Heinz and Fernandez. Buoniconti has been exceptional at reading the Offensive plays and his usual quickness to the ball is still there.
Miami starts the second half at their 20. Building on their success before half they continue to move the ball methodically. Miami marches down the field using up over 8 minutes of the clock before Jim Kiick pushes over from the two yard line for the TD. The big plays of the drive was a 4th down and 1 yd from the Dallas 37 that Csonka made good and a 18 yd Mercury Morris run after that puting Miami in good shape. The score is now Miami 14 Dallas 10. Dallas’s offense now has the ball and Miami seems to of settle in after a rocky start on Offense. Staubach is not hitting his mark to begin the qtr and Dallas is a quick three and out. Dallas punts the ball. Miami starts from their own 33. For one of the rare times Griese has time to throw and catches Dallas off guard with a deep pass to Warfield as he makes an acrobatic catch down at the Dallas 35 yd line for a 33 yd completion. The longest gain of the game for either team I believe. I didn’t think Griese would ever have the time to throw that kind of pass. It’s only two catches for Warfield but as usual they are big ones. Looks like Dallas’s defense is going to stiffen up as Harvey Martin gets to Griese for his 2nd QB sack of the game. Garo Yepremian lines up for a 39 yd FG. It’s good!! Miami 17 Dallas 10. End of the 3rd qtr that went really fast. Typical Miami.
This is what Dallas was afraid of that Miami’s running game would start clicking and find room to run. Counter that to the ineffectiveness of Dorsett again in a big game. He needs room to run and Miami is stuffing the area and their great safties are blanketing the passing area down field making a Staubach under pressure needing to be even more accurate. Thank goodness for Griese that he doesn’t have to rely on his passing too much or the Dallas pass rush would have gotten to him more than just two times in the first half. Wow, Dallas only had the ball once in the 3rd period.
Dallas gets the ball at their 40 after a nice return. Staubach throws a couple mid range completions. Looks like he’s getting his rhythm. Newhouse busts one up the middle for 11 yds. Back to the run but they just can’t sustain a running or passing game. Staubach sees know one open he scrambles for 8 yds and is two yds short of the first down. A younger Staubach would of made that 1st down. Decision time for Tom Landry. He doesn’t think twice with 10 minutes left he sends out the great Efren Herrera for the 45 yd FG. It’s good!! It’s now Miami 17 Dallas 13 with 10 minutes to go.
Miami gets the ball at their 20. You can feel the pressure as the clock is becoming a factor. Seems to be a slight shift in momentum after Miami had control through the middle of the game. Miami maybe getting conservative, how can you tell. They run twice up into the middle and on 3rd and 6 Griese drops back rolls to his right and the “Manster” Mr. White rushes through for his 1st sack. Griese didn’t have a chance. That’s 2 for Martin, 1 for White, and 1 early for “Hollywood” Henderson. Miami has no sacks but lots of hurries by Stanfill and a blitzing #53 who they name their defense for Bob Matheson. Stanfill, the #1 draft pick from Georgia who’s in his 5th PB this year is earning his pay today. Boy, Sieple kicks the punt of his life. Dallas gets the punt at their 28 yd line. I just keep thinking Dorsett the rookie sensation can’t stay bottled up forever. He only has 23 yds for the game. He’s due and boy Dallas needs a big play. Newhouse gets a nice gain, Dorsett gets buried in the backfield by a ferocious Manny Fernandez and Nick Buoniconti. Staubach is cool as he hits Preston Pearson for a big 3rd down screen play. Ball is at the Dallas 45, is pitched out to Dorsett he’s hit hard by a charging Dick Anderson oh no.!! the first fumble of the game at the Dallas 42 yd line. That’s the thing that’s irked coach Tom all year is his sensational rookie fumbling. Boy talk about an inopportune time. The Dolphin sideline jumping up and down. They start from the Dallas 42 with under 5:00 remaining. They pitch hand off to Kiick up the middle for 3 yds. Wow, they run a reverse to to Briscoe, he goes spinning and twisting as he tip toes down the side line for 19 yds. That’s a huge play! Puts the Dolphins into FG range at the 23 yd line. Morris runs wide again with a convoy of blockers including Csonka,Little,Kooch and even Warfield down to the Dallas 3rd line. 2:00 warning!! I’ll bet the house on this one. Opps! Griese tosses pass to TE Mandich in the corner of the end zone for a TD. I lost bet. Dolphin fans don’t
care. !!! Miami 24 Dallas 13 with 1:45 remaining in game.
Dallas takes kick off to their 35yd line. No one thinks Dallas will quit now. Staubach throws completion across middle to Golden Richards into Miami territory. Not enough of those for sure. Shula is yelling at his defense. Staubach under heavy pass rush throws incompletions. 3rd and 10 and he’s looking like Roger the Dodger of old. Owe! he takes a big hit but gains 20 going out of bounds at Miami’s 28 yd line with 1:00 left. Staubach goes back to pass, he’s sacked!! First of the day by Bill Stanfill. Clock is ticking he goes back reception by Dorsett over the middle, stopped at the 9 yd line. Can’t get out of bounds. No time outs :15 Staubach throws to the corner for Billy Joe DuPree – TD!! Extra point. Clock runs.
Final = 1973 Miami 24 vs. 1977 Dallas 20
What a game!! Very few penalties but two costly turnovers. Just the way you would expect Miami to play. And Dallas, what can you say? They came out fighting and ended fighting but Miami’s ball control,great defense, and mistake free play won out. Two great teams.
Miami’s stars: Griese 16-28-152 yds,
Csonka 30-102, Morris 10-65, Kiick 8-33, Briscoe 1-19
Warfield 2-45, Morris 4-28, Mandich 4-40, Kiick 6-30
Dallas’s stars: Staubach 18-38-1-220
Dorsett 17-42, Newhouse 8-40,P.Pearson 4-10
P.Pearson 9-67, D.Pearson 6-90, Dorsett 4-20, Newhouse 3-15, Richards 2-25
tony….
some good stuff there….wouldn’t it be neat if any of those teams actually did play one another!!
i remember something like that in the late 80’s with something called the ‘Dream Season’ by NFL Films and it was on ESPN a lot for one year atleast. i think the 78 steelers ended up winning the whole thing; the 78 cowboys lost to the 85 bears.
maybe later on i’ll post some more about these cowboy-fin match-ups, but i did some quick checking and it seems the cowboys did pretty well vs the run in the 70’s, especially in 71 and 77:
1970(10th), 1971(2nd), 1972(1st), 1973(3rd), 1975(4th), 1976(6th), 1977(3rd), 1978(1st).
as far as how each cowboy team ranked that were discussing now:
the 71 cowboys were 11-3, 1st in total offense and 7th in total defense.
the 77 cowboys were 12-2, 2nd in total offense and 8th in total defense.
two great teams for sure and it’s no shame to put all your eggs in either of those baskets.
BTW, who did you pick to win the 71 cowboys vs the 73 dolphins?
tony…
i think now if i remember right, the 78 steelers won the ‘Dream Season’ by beating the 72 dolphins in what was called the ‘Dream Bowl’.
i still don’t remember though who beat the 71 cowboys in the ‘Dream Season’.
Chad:
You are correct regarding Dream Season. There was also a one-time follow-up where the 78 Steelers played and lost to the 89 49ers. In effect, the experts and computers determined that Mel Blount and Co. couldn’t run with Rice, Taylor, and Craig. Not sure I agree because depending on which rules applied, Blount might have physically mauled Rice into submission.
As for your facts regarding Bob Hayes, it will be interesting to see what happens. Just as it has become a matter of “fact” that Ray Guy was the best punter ever (despite the numbers telling a different story), I feel like the “Hayes’ speed changed the game of football” has become “fact” without proper justification. Many articles that I have read over the years have stated that Hayes contributions are often overstated (not that I have been able to find one on command). For example, guys like Crazylegs Hirsch weren’t slow, they just weren’t world class sprinters.
For me, Hayes’ career simply wasn’t long enough, and his peak is even shorter. As I know I’ve seen others say while describing Bob Hayes, a HOF receiver would have been able to extend his dominance by either learning to beat zone coverage or run more precise routes after losing his top end speed. Bob Hayes did neither. He was a very one-dimensional player who in my opinion is not well-rounded enough for the HOF. That said, many others respectfully disagree, including the seniors committee and a number of other HOF voters. I assume you are right that Hayes will be inducted this year. Then we can move on to other controversial players…
Finally, as a long-time Art Monk supporter, I applaud your research and well thought out comments. You might want to forward them on to Peter King in his cnnsi mailbag. It appears that he reads a number of those emails and it might help convince him (if he needs it) to vote for Hayes.
Dolphins – Offense Pts / Defense Pts Allowed / Record
1969 pre-Shula 16.6pg 23.7pg 3-10-1
1970 #11 21.2pg #5 16.3pg 10-4
1971 #4 22.5pg #3 12.4pg 10-3-1
1972 #1 27.5pg #1 12.2pg 14-0
1973 #5 24.5pg #1 10.7pg 12-2
1974 #3 23.4pg #6 15.4pg 11-3
1975 #6 25.5pg #4 15.5pg 10-4
Shula’s first 5 years
including Post Season 63-15-1
Has any team had a better record in their first 5 years under a new coach? Or ever won more in a 5 year stretch. Of course the 14 game season was short lived.
Chad, I have to wimp out on a pick for the ’71 Cowboys vs ’73 Dolphins. I absolutely can’t call it. Dallas was so hungry after knocking on the SB door for so long. The team was also energized for Staubach to finally be the QB in charge. And the Dolphins were the returning SB Champs and having a 31-2 record over the last two years they felt supremely confident. Subsequently both teams crushed their SB opponents. :) It would be a hell of a game.
I do remember the ESPN fantasy Greatest teams matchups. It was kind of like Rocky Marciano vs Ali computer thing the did years ago. The one I saw ended with the 49ers beating the Steelers 28-27. Like usual Miami got know respect. Maybe they beat the old Green Bay Lol!! than I think they lost to the 49ers maybe?
Mel Blount was physical but so was the whole team. Donnie Shell knew how to put a pop on a player. He’s a 3/5 who might make it to the HOF one day.
I’ve got my list of players for the HOF. I’ve seen the light on Chris Hanburger a 4/9 who’s on my list now.
justin….
i’ve e-mailed Rick Gosselin with most of this hayes info previously before(he sent me a courteous e-mail back), so i’m confident he and the rest of the many hayes supporters on the HOF committee(much less all the Pro Football HOF members who support hayes) will make King aware of it.
i’m not sure anything will change his mind though, he seems set in his ways on the matter.
i can also remember how he was very stubborn on the issue of Art Monk and not budging on it for so long(he was against monk for years). though he did finally change his tune on Monk and congrats to Art on his induction last yr.
i would disagee with you on the matter that hayes was a “very one-dimensional” player. as i pointed out earler, he was a very good return man and his talents were more than just running down the field really fast.
hayes, as shown by his return ability, was a play-maker with the ball who could go the distance from anywhere on the field.
quick slants, flanker screens, reverses(etc)and of course medium and long routes were all ways of getting hayes the ball. hayes’ talents most his career demanded a saftey net from the opposing defenses with atleast two, sometimes three defenders having to watch him.
also, thanks for the compliments about my research!
tony….
let’s just say that those would be great games between the fins and two cowboy teams. i’m guessing the fins probably go 1-1 in the two games they play vs the 71 and 77 cowboys.
what’s funny about the ‘Dream Season’ was that in the 72 dolphin/78 steeler ‘Dream Bowl’, the footage used for the contest came from the 1972 afc champ game in pitt and a 1984 regular season game between the fins and steelers also in pitt.
the doplhins won both of those games but the steelers still win the dream bowl…..GO FIGURE???
i can probably come up with a strong senior list if others want to put their lists in too.
i just saw where tonight on NFL Network they are having a special on the top 10 biggest upsets in NFL history. i’ll try to predict some of them or atleast these are the ones that stand out to me….in no particular order:
(1)1984 bears over the redskins(at wash) in the div playoffs
(2)1987 vikings over SF(at SF) in the div playoffs
(3)2001 pats over the rams in the SB
(4)2005 steelers over the colts(at IND) in the div playoffs
(5)1968 jets over the colts in the SB
(6A)1983 raiders over the redskins in the SB
(6B)1987 redskins over broncos on the SB……..
in 6A and 6B, not just that both the raiders and skins were underdogs, but also the matter in which they won the games….nobody ever expected those kind of blow-outs in such a pivotal/important game as a SB, much less again the underdog winning in that kind of fashion!
(7)1997 den over the packers in the SB; doesn’t seem like it now, but of what i remember, that was a huge upset at the time.
(8)2007 NYG over the pats in the SB
(9)1998 falcons over minn(in minn)in the NFC champ game
(10)1979 rams over the cowboys(in dall)in the div playoffs
i’ve probably forgot a few more, but these seem to stand out the most.
Chad, looks good. IMO 5,8,9,10,2 would be 1-5.
The 1979 Ram’s upset is relevant to today’s SB with another 9-7 team in the Cardinals making it to the big game. It only took 30 years :)
I also remember the 1975 playoffs with huge upsets. First the Dallas Cowboys over Minnesota 17-14 with Drew Pearson’s Hail Mary catch and than the Cowboys beat the LA Rams 37-7 in the NFC Championship. Everyone was predicting the Rams to reach the SB that year. Dallas had kind of a patch work team after not making the playoffs the year before. It was suppose to be Chuck Knox’s time. Not!!! Best coach not to make it to the SB??
1971 Miami’s 6 quarter 27-24 win over Kansas City in Kansas City in the longest game was likely an upset although maybe the spread wasn’t big? It was a cold weather game on Christmas Day and I’m sure many thought Miami would do poorly.
Miami’s 1985 regular season win over the undefeated Chicago. I wouldn’t included reg. season but for the importance and hype around the game. It was the last real chance to beat the Bears.
The Giants 1990 SB win over Buffalo 20-19 was huge upset win. I never thought QB Jeff Hoestetler could pull it off. The Giants won the only way they could using up all the game clock. And wide right!!!
The 14-2 Chicago Bears were stunned at home in the 1986 playoffs by the Redskins 27-13. Walter Payton’s last gm.
Every time the Chargers beat Peyton Manning and the Colts it’s feels like an upset too me. The most recent game in Indy at the 2007 Playoffs 28-24 was an upset. The Chargers had injuries.
I didn’t remember the 8-7-1 Vikings beating the 49ers in San Fran.in 1987. I thought it was a mistake. Wow what an upset!!!!
I have my list of players to send to the HOF. Anyone feel free to discuss additional ones I might add. I was surprised how few players I could find that retired 1983 and before that seem to pass the test. I won’t send Cowboys or Falcons names in this time because of the recent induction of Hayes and Humphrey. Remember only one AFL player Billy Shaw has made it into the NFL HOF. All of my players proved themselves in the NFL too.
This is my list of ten deserving players for the HOF:
Roger Brown DE 2/6 (can’t believe he’s not in the HOF)
Maxie Baughan RLB 2/9
Ed Budde G 2/7
Winston Hill LT 0/8
Chris Hanburger RLB 4/9
Jake Scott FS 2/5
Harold Jackson WR
John Brodie QB 1/2 POY
Robert Brazile RLB 2/7
Culy Culp NT 1/6
well, i got six right out of the 10. the four i missed were:
KC defeats minn in the SB
NYG defeats the bills in the SB
1987 redskins defeat dallas in a scab(strike) game
1950 browns defeat eagles in season opener
i thought besides the redskin and browns upset, the other two choices were kind of weak.
tony….
i guess we disagree on the giant/bills SB.
back then, i never counted BP short and his game-plan of pounding anderson and killing the clock worked to perfection.
the real goof of the whole thing was the bills didn’t run thurman more than they did, allowing the giants to drop back in 8-9 man coverage schemes….helping to slow the bills passing game. when the bills ran thurman he thrived vs the giants D….they just really didn’t do it enough IMO.
isn’t it funny that the chiefs kicker in the 1971 playoff game vs miami missed a makeable FG that would’ve been the game winner….now he is in the HOF. the dolphins caught a break there for sure.
i’ll try to put together my senior list soon.
Correction. My bad. Walter Payton last game was in 1987 not 86. Same result though with a playoff loss to Wahington 21-17 in Chicago. Still an upset but not as big.
That Minnesota loss to KC in the ’69 SB was another case of the bettors along with the NFL ego taking the AFL team lightly. I guess they didn’t think lightning could strike twice. They should of known that a great Chiefs defense would eat up a Joe Kapp led Vikings team. I’m surprised it was on their list of biggest upsets. Look at all of the Chiefs in the HOF. Vikings too though. Minnesota’s Offense never did zip in SB games. vs. KC 6pts,vs Miami 7pts (4 min. left in the 4th),Pitts. 6pts (defensive scored TD) and Oak. 14pts. Not to say their Purple People Gang defense did much. The Steelers game they held their own but zero Offense.
here is a list of eight senior nominees that i want to present, in order:
(1)Jerry Kramer-5/3/60
(2)Chris Hanburger-4/9
(3)Lemar Parrish-1/8
(4)Floyd Little-1/5
(5)Daryle Lamonica-2/5
(6)Jim Tyrer-6/9
(7)Johnny Robinson-6/7
(8)Dick Stanfel-5/5/50
i didn’t put any cowboys, falcons, WR’s or DE’s because of the selections this yr of hayes(dall) and humphrey(atl).
Chad,
I determined Little and Lamonica did’t have the stats. I will look at again but Floyd Little only had (1) 1,oooyd season and poor career avg 3.9 and only went over 4.0 which is the NFL average two times. I remember the guy was real popular and fun to watch. Denver always went crazy for their players. I think he had additional notoriaty because he was the workhorse at his size at 5’10” tall. I’m sure lots of folks have tried for him before. NO for me.
Someone said they were surprised that no Raider QB was in the HOF. The truth is both are very marginal for me. And Lamonica had a couple good years but his completion avg was many times under 50% as was his career at about 49%. I know he was the Mad Bomber but most years didn’t reflect that in yds per att. And speaking of Qakland QB’s , I think Stabler is being hurt by interceptions. Years of 14-24, 16-30 and 13-28 is gets lots of attention. Possibly that 12 ounce training contributed to the inconsistant play plus Stabler’s arm was a noodle by the time he got to the Oilers. I wonder if the movie North Dallas Forty was really about the Raiders?
I went back and looked at the Mad Bomber. I’m getting up on the fence now. He actually had only six years as a starting QB and while his comp. perct. winning and other numbers were really good. Anyone know how he made PB for Buffalo only playing one game? I thought he was their punt but Paul Maguire was a PB punter that year. I think my stat website made an error. If he’s a 2/4 does it make a difference? He’s an exceptional 66-16 as a starting QB and career TD to Int. of 30 is very good. But having less than 20,000 career yds passing and only a 50.9 compl. rate in 6 yrs as full-time QB for one of the Cadillac teams of the AFL. No Championshps. Hmmm!! No for me.
John Brodie an NFL guy who’s my only sentimental pick off my list. If they don’t let him in will they an AFL guy who’s similar? Except Brodie had a much longer career. Both he and Lamonica were POY for their League. Brodie at 35 yrs old.
My QB pick Brodie toiled in relative obscurity without making the Playoffs for the 49ers throughout the 60’s while getting Spinkled in were a couple good years and usually maintaining a high comp. rate. and two standout years with passer rating over 90. I wish they kept track of sacks better..I saw a show a long time ago that told of how much Brodie got sacked through much of his early career. I would imagine playing Deacon Jones and the rest of the Fearsome Foursome twice a year left its mark on Brodie.
John was a very good Senior golfer for years and than he had a bad stroke about 10 or more years ago. I wish he could live long enough to see the HOF if it happens. I’m sure others have lobbied for him. His Son-In-law is retired QB Chris Chandler. I think of John when I think about football with all the shots he took and bloodied uniform and than to finally have his best teammates when he reached 35. That’s my sentimental pick so if it looks like a reach it is.Lol!!
Like Bachslunch said one time the NFL has drawn a line in the sand for Roman Gabriel, John Brodie, Jim Hart ect… Look at Gabriel, if he can’t get in than an AFL Lamonica will be a real long shot IMO. Of course I’m not sure how much Gabriel’s fumbles are holding him back. I’d say NO for the Mad Bomber. I doubt there’s much wiggle room on QB’s, period.
It’s hard to say what’s holding Brodie back? Over 200 TD’s, over 30,000 passing yards which put him at #3 on the all-time list when he quit playing. I doubt we’ll ever see a player finish #3 and not be in the HOF in the future. The closest now is Vinny Testeverde at #6. I don’t see him ever in the HOF at 0/2. But 30,000 yds was a big deal at that time. You had Unitas and YA Tittle in front of him and these future HOF players are still behind him: Dawson, Bradshaw, Griese, Namath, Starr and Staubach. Winning Super Bowls definetly matters.:) Sonny Jurgeson passed Brodie the next year and is in the HOF.I think I can make a real good argument for John Brodie and will try. His career is very like YA Tittle with the later success.
Johnny Robinson, I would certianly put in the NFL HOF but his whole career was in the ALF and IMO there’s little chance the NFL will recognize him. Go to the AFL HOF website and they complain about players like Johnny not getting into NFL’s HOF. That probaly makes it worse. I guess the AFL HOF will have to do for many. He’s a NO.
I thought Tyrer was already in the HOF. We talked about him dying in the late 70’s on this page with Bachslunch. Maybe his whole career was in the AFL? Nope. Wow he’s very deserving. I wonder if there’s been a reluctance with him mudering his wife/his suicide death? I would take a pass a NO.
I’ve got Hansburger on my list and is well deserving. No pun intened but I think he’s a hamburger guy and not a steak guy with the flash. He’s a Nick Buoniconti grinder. I wish he had more int’s. but you don’t go 4/9 without being excellent. I thought about suggesting MLB – Mike Curtis a 2/4 guy with Baltimore. I’m sure you remember him:) YES for Hansburger.
Is that the Packers Jerry Kramer? He’s a great guy. I’ve heard him speak many times in support of the retired NFL who are financially hurting. It’s sad. You know I didn’t even look at Packer players cause I figured they were all in already.While do you think he’s being overlooked being so well known? YES for him.
Lemar Parrish has good credentials. I’ll look at and add Great pick just under the wire at 1982. My saftey Scott played 4 1/2 yrs less and has 2 more picks. Lol!! Just kidding. Different positions. Scott was a ball-hawk playing FS. He did that well. I never know who is suppose the get more int’s the CB or S? Parrish must of been a really good cover guy too? He made the PB a couple of times with just a couple ints. No doubt he’s a HOF guy. I remember Summerall and Brookshire doing their NFL Week in Review show and Parrish would always get talked about with his special play. YES for him.
Cinnci was good in the early 70’s with Boobie Clark and Issac Curtis. I can’t wait to nominate Kenny Anderson if they aren’t smart enough to do it in the next couple years. Travesty!!
Dick Stanfel G – very interesting!! first 2 out of 3 years played on the Lions Championship teams. Lost Champ. in the 3rd year. Those were the great Bobby Layne teams. Ran by committe but gained good yardage with Doak Walker as a HB. Except for his 1st year he was essentially an All-Pro every year after that. Could only played 7 due to injury or was a lot more fun getting those winning checks early on. Lol!! They didn’t make much, he might of went to a regular job? He’s a good find!! I don’t have to see him play to know he was good. Has probably been passed over by guys who played longer. 5/5 at G got Larry Little into HOF. That would be part of argument. I’m always impressed when a guy maintains his post season on a losing team and switches teams and still gets post season on a new team and a loser to boot in the Redskins. Man this must of been highly thought of in the league. He’s only a Guard.:)A big YES for him.
Maxie Baughan one of my picks made PB and AP on two teams. At 2/9 with success on two teams Eagles(including Championsip team) and those great George Allen Ram’s teams I figure he’s sound really deserving. I want to say I’ve heard his name brought up before. Does anyone remember seeing him play. Who could I compare him too?
Chad, I’ll include all from you’re list on mine if want. Still have lots of time to modify. I’m going to write a paragragh of support for the ones I support the most. If you want you can do likewise onto site hear or send to aparaslow@isp.com I’ll copy and paste onto my official letter. I can do Hansburger? Wasn’t there someone on the board – Team Olkewicz the Redskins fan. Maybe he saw him/knows him better and can describe his play. I figure it would be tough for you to give so much support to a Redskin being a Cowboy fan.Lol!!
PS. anyone feel free to comment on my choices. I picked I think the better of the two Harold’s. I couldn’t remember how long Carmichael’s consecutive games with a catch was. I know it was impressive around 138 games. He was tall like a giraffe at 6’8″ . He had a career avg recp. of about 15 yds which is good for someone that was a boarderline TE.He had good moves. I’m not sure about him. I know Jackson made a huge difference to every team he played for. Man it was fun seeing Hadl hook up with him on the Rams. Bombs away!
Anybody playing fantasy Basketball -USA Gold Medalist and Milwu. Guard – Michael Redd out for the season with two torn knee ligaments . Bummer!! Nice guy.
My error – Johnny Robinson played two years in the NFL and more importantly was All-Pro in the NFL for. Still I feel pretty much the same way about slimmer chances for players that played mostly in the AFL. I’m having second thoughts about Ed Budde. I want to send a list that is really well thought out. I’d be interest to hear some opinions about that AFL players going into the NFL HOF. I know Emmitt Thomas made it recently all of his 1/5 was in the NFL. I’m going to research and see if any NFL hall of famer other thn Bill Shaw made it with all of his Post Season being AFL.
tony….
one thing about Stanfel is he was already nominated before as a senior nominee and rejected. as happened with Bob Hayes, i would like to give him another chance!
i feel pretty good about the Little pick, so maybe i can get you on board in the future
i feel with the historical status of the raiders and their continued excellence from the mid 60’s through the mid 80’s, it’s strange they don’t have the most important position on the field in the HOF from that era(not counting blanda).
i think the only team with more continued success as far as winning seasons and playoff appearances in a certain era were the cowboys(1966-85);20 consecutive winning seasons and 18 playoff showings in that era.
i certainly think Stabler and Lamonica were a huge part of that and both would not be unreasonable HOF nominees. i’ll go with Lamonica over the ‘Snake’ because Stabler has a lot of negative vibes on the HOF committee.
i’m guessing Brodie, Hadl, Stabler and Lamonica will be the four strongest QB senior nominees. i guess we’ll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
Brazile- he’s a very impressive player. how was he never a finalist for the HOF?
Culp- i think he falls a little short
Harold Jackson- very under-rated player who is certainly worthy of HOF consideration
Winston Hill is probably hurt by Tyrer’s off the field tragedy because it’s hard to put him in the HOF when Tyrer isn’t. also, a zero on his all-pro profile(0/8) could hurt his chances as well.
Ed Budde and Maxie Baughan were solid palyers, but i think Baughan is behind some other senior candidate LB’s in what is already a loaded field at that position for seniors.
Budde may eventually take the place of Tyrer as the Chief OL that finally gets into the HOF.
the Chiefs have all those HOF’s from the 60’s/early 70’s but no OL yet off those teams inducted into the HOF.
Jake Scott is a famous dolphin off the ‘No-Name’ defense who was an all-pro player on a historic team and defense. it’s hard to go wrong with that choice. i just hope that he, Cliff Harris and Johnny Robinson don’t cancel each other out as senior candidates.
Brodie was not a bad choice.
Roger Brown….he could be hurt by Karras’ omission because a lot of people want Alex in first.
Brown is also competing with Harvey Martin and LC Greenwood(both all decade choices) at the DE position for senior candidates.
my bad on Brown who is a DT(not DE).
that means martin and LC aren’t in his way but the karras thing is still in play. brown is certainly a HOF worthy nominee.
Here is my list of senior nominees
1. Chris Hanburger
2. Lemar Parrish
3. Alex Karras
4. L.C Greenwood
5. Coy Bacon
6. Pete Retzlaff
7. Jake Scott
8. Harcey Martin
9. Randy Gradishar
10. Tommy Nobis
11. John Brodie
12. Dick Lebeau
Billy…
i certainly like the choices of Hanburger, Parrish, Martin and Retzlaff.
Retzlaff and Martin would’ve been two of my choices except that i wasn’t looking for any receivers or DE’s this yr with Hayes’ and Humphreys nomination already by the committee this past time.
Lebeau is becoming more impressive with not only his fine career as a player, but also what he’s done as a def coordinator, especially his tenure with the steelers.
the rest of your picks certainly deserve consideration. Bacon is the only one that might be a reach, though a quality player none the less.
Karras is also interesting because he’s always in the argument for the HOF, but seems to have the gambling stuff holding him back. He isn’t a first ballot guy like Lilly so as a ‘on the cuff’ candidate, that gambing fiasco he had in the early 60’s couldn’t be helping his chances.
Brown played in a different decade than Greenwood and Martin so would he still be competeing with them? Also I was under the impression that Brown was a more valuable player than Karras. I couldn’t find anything negative about Brown.
I read on the AFL HOF website that Jim Tyrer was double teamed by supposedly the greatest team ever in the Vikings in the SB, and was blowing by both defenders opening holes for Mike Garrett all day. He was huge man for the day at 6’6″ 295lbs.He also played in 180 consecutive games. I’m dismissing Budde for now. Tyrer’s life is sad but this guy clearly was a HOF player who should be remembered by the NFL.
IMO Jake Scott was playing at a PB level his last years with Redskins having 7 int’s and I suspect he would of been a PB guy if he played the next year. Sometimes I notice they are a year behind on recogition. Also I believe playing with a player as great as Ken Houston took away some notoriety like Mike Haynes did to Lester Hayes. His int’s certianly went down. Scott isn’t in the Miami Ring of Honor due to an ongoing rift with Don Shula.
Chad, why do you feel good about Floyd Little? Any opinions out there? Maybe I’m missing something?
I saw Curly Culp play in Houston where he was an awesome as a nose tackle. At 6’2″ 265 he had a squatty body good for that position. A minature Jerry Ball. I like how his post season was spread out over his career. He played on the Chiefs SB team also. I wonder if anyone is getting Chief fatigue yet? Lol!!
A have a question, do you think a LB can be great and make it to the HOF with only a few ints.? For ex. Jack “Hacksaw” Reynolds.
I was going to cut Maxie but I thought of all of them he might be one that people weren’t rememering I know I didn’t know him.I added Chuck Howley and left off Martin. Now that I look at the the LB’s, they very likely could be canceling eachother out or there’s being a line drawn.
This is our list minus a few controversial picks.It’s looks ok. The ones with a * I feel the most confident about :) We need more good ones. Solid but still seems like too many reaches. Any more pearls? Can discuss more until we reach concensus.
Offense
QB-John Brodie 1/2/60-70’s
QB-Darle Lamonica 2/4/60’s
RG-Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s Narrow to 1? LG available?
RG-Dick Stanfel 5/5/50’s
LT-Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s
LT-Winston Hill 0/8/60/70’s RT available?
SE-TE-Pete Retzlaff 1/5/60’s *
WR-Harold Jackson 1/5/70-80’s *
Defense
RDT-Roger Brown 2/6/60’s *
NT-Curly Culp 1/6/70’s
LDE-L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s *
RLB-Chris Hanburger 4/9/60-70’s
LLB/RLB-Chuck Howley 5/6/60-70’s Who’s the best of the 3?
RLB-Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s
ROLB-Robert Brazile 2/7/70-80’s
RILB-Randy Gradishar 2/7/70-80’s *
LCB-Lemar Parrish 1/8/70’s *
CB-Dick Lebeau 0/3/60’s * I love this pick!
S-Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
SS/FS-Jake Scott 2/5/70’s
Rejected List so far-
Coy Bacon – 0/3 130 sacks,SI.com Top 10 rusher of all- time, died last month. Bacon was big for a defensive end, 6’4″, 270 pounds, and given to furious pass rushes when the mood seized him. When Chuck Knox took over as coach in 1973, assistant Tom Catlin mentioned that Bacon wouldn’t play the run. “He won’t what?” Knox said. Bacon was traded to San Diego, and after three seasons there was shipped to Cincinnati, where he got 21 1/2 sacks in 1976. Sounds like a Richard Dent type.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/dr_z/passrushers.flashback/1.html NO Harvey Martin
Harvey Martin – Marginal post season,more like a HOF Cowboy, would feel better if he was a Defensive POY, passed away so lacks urgencey? I believe a 50% within 10 years. After that very slim. Who’s around to lobby for him? So many others that stand out from the last 25 yrs not picked yet.
Tommy Nobis – Hall of very good just because of the length of greatness and so many LB’s.Humphrey will be lucky as a Falcon. I’m a UT guy but have to be realistic about one of the greatest to play at our University.
Alex Karras NO- an interesting character for sure between wrestling, football and acting but his whole NFL career was too controverial, gambling,getting coaches fired and such, IMO greatness too short as 3/4 than knee injuries. Roger Brown should get in first.
Ed Budde NO- Currently marginal,KC fatigue?, better choices on his own team.
Floyd Little Very marginal- Stats are low even for the time, Post Season is OK but primarily in AFL. How many RB’s are currently in HOF? I’d go for Calvin Hill or Greg Pruitt before Little. Will keep considering. :)Chad, If we can’t find two better choices at RB we’ll put him on list Lol!!
Winston Hill not a solid pick for me,being 0/8 should not matter though. I’ve seen others make without being an AP as long as 8 or 9 and above. I was afraid with all of Namath’s knee injuries it might reflect badly on Hill?
I need more feedback and suggestions. Tony – out
Tony here are a few names just outside my list, but others may like them better.
1. Art Powell WR
2. Andy Russell LB
3. Roman Gabriel QB
4. Jim Marshall DE
5. Pat Fischer DB
Actually I also have a list of some of te most forgotten abou NFL Stars who have been out of sight- out of mind but at one point were considered to be the next group of enshrinees.
1. Jack Butler DB 103 games 52 INT’s 4PB 3AP
2. Lawrence Mccutcheon RB 1521-6578 4.3 AVG 26 TD’s
376 Receptions 3203 YDS 17 TD’s
3PB 0AP
3. Chuck Foreman FB 1556-5950 4.1 AVG 53 TD’s
350 Receptions 3156 Yds 23 TD’s
5PB 1AP
4. Rick Ceasares FB 1431-5797 4.1 AVG 49 TD’s
191-1588 Receptions 11 TD’s
5PB 1AP
5. Bobby Boyd DB 57 INT’s for 994 YDs 4 TD’s
2PB 3AP’s
6. Billy Howton WR 503-8459 61 TD’s
4PB 2AP
7. Eddie Meador DB 46INT 547YDS 5TD’s
6PB 2AP
tony…..
Martin led the cowboys in sacks 7X during his playing career(1973-83) and is their all-time sack leader(more than Randy White and Bob Lilly).
his 1977 season was magical when he had 23 sacks(14 gms), won DPOY and was co-MVP of the SB with Randy White.
Martin is also a member of the NFL’s 1970 all-decade team.
his profile is 1/4 but also remember he had 12 sacks in 1980 though didn’t make the PB.
the cowboys had the most wins of any team of the 70’s, went to 5 SB’s and won 2 SB titles, losing twice to pitt in what some call the best SB’s ever. i think clearly the dall defense had a lot to do with thier success and Martin a big part of that.
again, i think he would be a good nominee.
Little(1967-75)is still a good choice for me and has been a regular finalist on the senior committee list in the past, just never chosen.
for me, when a RB with that small of stature is the work horse for mainly bad teams and the target of every defense, yet still leads the NFL in rushing and YFS(yards from scrimmage) for the six yr period of 1968-73 and also goes to the NFL pro-bowl(also was an AFL all-star multiple times in the 60’s) in 1970, 71 and 73….that’s says a lot.
Little when he retired was the 7th leading rusher and the six who were ahead of him then are all in the HOF now.
Billy…
all worthy of consideration, especially Powell and Howton.
Powell has HOF dominant numbers for a span in the 60’s but it all came in the AFL, while Howton at one time was the all-time receptions leader for the NFL. i’m not sure Howton was ever all-world but he was a very consistent player.
again, i wasn’t looking for receivers this yr but certainly these two and Retzlaff are strong. i’ll go with Retzlaff and Howton because of their NFL success.
the DB’s you chose are all worthy of consideration, but it’s such a loaded field at DB for seniors and these you chose are behind others in that pool(IMO).
though i wasn’t looking for cowboys this yr, Cornell Green would be interesting considering he played for a great team most his career, and his profile(3/5) is spread over time at two different positions(S and CB); he made the PB at CB and S.
Erich Barnes is also interesting at CB.
he’s got a 1/6 profile and was a pro-bowler on three different teams with NYG, CHI and CLEV.
he went to the pro-bowl with the giants from 1961-64 when the giants were a great team;they went to three consecutive NFL title games from 1961-63.
in 1968, when he went to the pro-bowl with clev, they played in the NFL title game as well.
Jim Patton at DB also looks good as a possible nominee.
he was a 5X pro-bowler and 5X 1st team all-pro with the NYG.
his peak yrs were from 1958-62 when he made the pro-bowl and 1st team all-pro every yr. in those seasons, the g-men played in four nfl title games(1958,59,61,62).
the giants also played in the 1963 nfl title game when Patton was 9th in the league with 6 interceptions…though he missed the pro-bowl that year.
WOW….the DB pool for seniors is absolutely loaded!!!
We should create a new board. Name it
“2010 NFL HOF Senior Wish List”
I looked – and don’t know how? Tony made this one on Aug 8th. After we can copy and paste some of our most recent messages from this board.
FORGET MY LAST COMMENT. THINKING ERROR.:)
Shoot, Maybe we don’t want to spilt hairs too much. I’m thinking our list ought to be everyone we think is worthy no matter their position or team. Maybe we’ll hit on someone that they haven’t considered before or for a long time. If we want we can devide into an A list and a B list and ultimately go with the A list of the most worthy? Or not Lol!! We’ll see how big our list is.
So many Seniors have been discussed already. Here’s a list of what Bachslunch thought previously to pull from maybe:
Riley Matheson L, Jim Tyrer OT, Ed Budde G, Jerry Kramer G, Dick Stanfel G, Walt Sweeney G, Billy Wilson WR, Drew Pearson WR, Otis Taylor WR, Mac Speedie WR, Pete Retzlaff TE, Floyd Little RB, Gene Brito DT, L.C. Greenwood DE, Maxie Baughan LB, Chris Hanburger LB, Randy Gradishar LB, Joe Fortunato LB, Tommy Nobis LB, Abe Woodson DB, Bobby Dillon DB, Jack Butler DB, Lemar Parrish DB, Tommy Davis K
It appears he supports Floyd Little,Tommy Nobis,Maxie Baughan, Ed Budde G also which were a bit controversial:)I’ll add Little and Martin (only because the Dallas’s “77 D is so under represented) to the list. Chad, you failed to mention Dallas’s 3 straight NFC Championship games under Danny White. Also don’t short :) White and Lilly’s sack # as they played Tackle position. White is one of the best players I’ve ever seen!! I knew all about Martin’s history. Lol!! Too much Lol!! as a 40yr Austin, TX resident.:) You sold me on Little’s versatility. :) Good job!
I will review:
Bachslunch : Joe Fortunato LB, Abe Woodson DB, Bobby Dillon DB, Jack Butler DB,Riley Matheson Gene Brito Walt Sweeney G, Billy Wilson WR, Drew Pearson WR, Otis Taylor WR
Chad has added: Jim Patton, Erich Barnes
Billy has added:
Art Powell WR
Andy Russell LB
Roman Gabriel QB
Jim Marshall DE
Pat Fischer DB
Jack Butler DB
Lawrence Mccutcheon RB
Chuck Foreman FB
Rick Ceasares
Bobby Boyd DB 57 INT’s
Billy Howton WR
Eddie Meador
Billy must of missed my comments on Andy Russell a while back Lol!! I’ll look at real hard again:) I saw him fairly often too living near the Houston and seeing all of the Oiler games.
What do you think about adding Harold Carmichael? 130 straight games with a catch is impressive.
“Riley Matheson L, Jim Tyrer OT, Ed Budde G, Jerry Kramer G, Dick Stanfel G, Walt Sweeney G, Billy Wilson WR, Drew Pearson WR, Otis Taylor WR, Mac Speedie WR, Pete Retzlaff TE, Floyd Little RB, Gene Brito DT, L.C. Greenwood DE, Maxie Baughan LB, Chris Hanburger LB, Randy Gradishar LB, Joe Fortunato LB, Tommy Nobis LB, Abe Woodson DB, Bobby Dillon DB, Jack Butler DB, Lemar Parrish DB, Tommy Davis K”
Yes, thanks — also add:
Al Wistert L, Lavvie Dilweg E, Duke Slater L, Verne Lewellen B, Mick Tingelhoff C, Chuck Howley LB, Johnny Robinson S, Jimmy Patton S, Robert Brazile LB, Harold Carmichael WR, Del Shofner WR
And Billy Howton WR and Cliff Harris S.
I’ve spent hours researching and posted twice all sorts of thoughtful comments only for this site not to update my information. I give up!!
I HATE COMPUTERS!!! THIS IS A BUMMER!!! :(
Guys, I’ll try tomorrow.
Boy DB’s are backed up! Regardless of position and team, and reading everyones comments, this is the order “I” like nominated to the Vet committee
1. L.C Greenwood DE
2. Lemar Parrish DB
3. Dick Lebeau DB
4. Chris Hanburger LB
5. Jerry Kramer G
6. John Brodie QB
7. Maxie Baughn LB
8. Randy Gradishar LB
9. Gene Brito DT
10. Jake Scott DB
11. Harold Carmichael WR
12. Jack Butler DB
13. Cliff Harris DB
14. Mick Tinglehoff C
15. Curley Culp NT
16. Tommy Davis P
17. Art Powell WR
18. Pat Fischer DB
19. Pete Retzlaff TE
20. Roman Gabriel QB
OK, i’ll try again!! Sorry for lack of explanations this time on every player.
Billy has added:
Art Powell WR – NO – All-AFL
Andy Russell LB – NO
Roman Gabriel QB – NO
Jim Marshall DE – YES
Pat Fischer DB – NO -Rod Perry.Pat Thomas like
Jack Butler DB – YES –
Lawrence Mccutcheon RB – NO – One of my favs of all-time
Chuck Foreman FB – NO
Chuck Muncie – NO
These players are great but IMO just under HOF level, the only 70’s RB’s in the HOF OJ, Walter, and Franco. FB’s Riggins and Csonka
Rick Ceasares FB – NO
60’s-70’s RB’s should be compared to lowest denominator in HOF – Leroy Kelly – I think RB are tapped out- Maybe one more – Chad , who’s better Little or Larry Brown?
Bobby Boyd DB – NO
Billy Howton WR – YES
Eddie Meador DB – YES
Jim Patton DB – NO
Erich Barnes DB – YES I really like this pick!!
Dick Anderson S – YES only reason – All-70’s team
Cliff Harris S – YES only reason – All-70’s team
Tommy Nobis LB – YES
Harold Carmichael WR – YES All-70’s team
Floyd Little RB – YES
Harvey Martin DE – YES All-70’s team
Otis Taylor WR – YES
Joe Fortunato LB – YES All-50’s team
Abe Woodson DB/KR – YES very impressive!!
Bobby Dillon DB – NO
Riley Matheson G – NO
Gene Brito LDE – YES 2/5
Walt Sweeney G – YES 2/9
Billy Wilson WR – YES 1/6
Drew Pearson WR – YES – All-70’s team 3/3, best year no PB
Al Wistert G – YES – All-40’s team (T) only HOF rep. at Tackle is George Connor who played mostly in the 50’s
Lavvie Dilweg E – YES
Duke Slater L – NO
Verne Lewellen B – NO
Mick Tingelhoff C – YES 5/6 240 starts in 240 games
Tommy Davis K – NO
Mac Speedie E – YES All-40’s team 349 catches
Get a load out of this teams year. LOL!! Miami who!!
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/1929.htm
NFL 2010 Senior List
THE NFL SENIOR LIST
OFFENSE
RT – Al Wistert 4/1/40’s
RG – Walt Sweeney 2/9/60’s-70’s
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s
RG – Dick Stanfel 5/5/50’s
C – Mick Tingelhoff 5/6/60’s-70’s
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s
LT – Winston Hill 0/8/60/70’s
QB – John Brodie 1/2/60-70’s
QB – Darle Lamonica 2/4/60’s
RB – Floyd Little 1/5/60’s-70’s
RE – Billy Wilson 1/6/50’s
E – Billy Howton 2/4/50’s-60’s
SE – Pete Retzlaff 1/5/60’s
WR – Otis Taylor 2/3/60’s-70’s
WR – Harold Carmichael 0/4/70’s
WR – Drew Pearson 3/3/70’s
WR – Harold Jackson 1/5/70’s-80’s
LE – Mac Speedie 3/2/40’s-50’s
LE – Lavvie Dilweg 5/0/20’s-30’s
DEFENSE
RDE – Harvey Martin 1/4/70’s-80’s
RDE – Jim Marshall 0/2/60’s-70’s
RDT – Roger Brown 2/6/60’s
NT – Curly Culp 1/6/70’s
LDE – L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s
LDE – Gene Brito 3/5/50’s
ROLB – Robert Brazile 2/7/70’s-80’s
RLB – Chris Hanburger 4/9/60’s-70’s
RLB – Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s
RILB – Randy Gradishar 2/7/70’s-80’s *
MLB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s
LLB – Joe Fortunato 3/5/50’s-60’s
LLB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
DB – Jack Butler 3/4/50’s
CB/R – Abe Woodson 2/5/60’s
CB – Dick Lebeau 0/3/60’s
LCB – Lemar Parrish 1/8/70’s
LCB – Erich Barnes 1/6/60’s
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
SS/FS – Dick Anderson 2/3/70’s
SS/FS – Jake Scott 2/5/70’s
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s
Comments? Players you can’t stand? Players you want to emphasize?
It’s a damn shame only two players a year can be added.
after looking at everyone’s choices, here is what i’ve come up with as my 10 senior nominee finalists, in order:
(1)Jerry Kramer
(2)Chris Hanburger
(3)Lemar Parrish
(4)Jim Tyrer
(5)Chuck Howley
(6)Maxie Baughan
(7)Jim Patton
(8)Johnny Robinson
(9)Pete Retzlaff
(10)Billy Howton
the others i didn’t mention either fell a little short of my HOF standards while the rest after that were certainly worthy, just to me not more deserving than the above ten.
Tony you have a great and through list representing many positions. But I wonder if we should add a couple of FB’s and a punter to the list. Here are my nominees
1. Tommy Davis P
2. Chuck Foreman FB
3. Rick Casares FB
Let me know what you think?
After looking at our nominees. These are the two I think are most deserving-
1. Chris Hanburger
2. Lemar Parrish
tony…
i’ll take Little over Brown though Brown was a monster for a few years.
i was also surprised you had a ‘NO’ on Patton. he impressed me a lot with such consisitency on championship caliber teams.
5/5 from 1958-62 on NYG teams that went to four NFL Title games in that era. he also played well on the 1963 giant team that went to another NFL Title game(his six int’s that year were ninth in the league).
Jack Butler impressed me a lot too. he was better than i thought.
the thing i loved about Retzlaff is not only his versatility at different positions, but also rememember, he made the pro-bowl on the 1960 eagles team that won a NFL title over the packers and also won a MVP(Bert Bell award) on a losing eagle team in 1965.
you wonder if he would’ve had the chance to play a greater teams over his career, what might have become. he also has his number #44 retired as an eagle.
Howton at one time lead the NFL in career receptions and receiving yards, passing Don Hutson to do so.
anyone believe that Pat Harder could have a chance as a long-shot Dark-horse candidate? i’m thinking it’s not out of the question.
Thank you for allowing us fans to comment on the proposed
Hall of Fame selections. It seems that the actual process
for selection may be more complicated than it seems, but in
the end, while films and numbers don’t lie, they can never
compensate for the consistency of heart and spirit necessary
to have a decent NFL career!
You failed to mention that L.C. Greenwood fell of the list of finalists this year because he’s no longer eligible as a modern era candidate. Old gold shoes will surely be picked by the old timers in the near future.
I have money on Rod Woodson being in the Class of 2009. You can bet on it as well.
So how do people feel feel about the HOF class? I like the class overall, bur how do Humphrey and C. Carter not get in? I would have put Carter in over Wilson, but I know he was the sentimental favorite. I am thrilled for Thomas and McDaniel.
I don’t get Claude Humphrey not being elected either. I could have seen both or just Humphrey getting in. Just Hayes was a real surprise to me.
Am wondering if all the whining and second-guessing that accompanied Cris Carter’s not being elected this time around (from Carter himself and from the NFL Network that put him atop their HoF All Time Snub List, for two) sat poorly with some of the committee members and delayed his selection further. The biggest gripe I’ve seen on Carter’s stats is his relatively low average yards per catch, but it’s hard to think that’s the whole story — unless the electors are also thinking he’s a possession type WR, which will indeed delay him a bit, as such WRs tend to get less love from HoF voters than deep threats, Ray Berry notwithstanding. And with both Jerry Rice and Tim Brown coming up eligible next year, that sure won’t help get Carter voted in anytime soon.
Bachslunch and Billy,
We discussed Humphrey’s weakness but I’m surprised they pulled the plug on his nomination. Can’t say I’m disappointed except for the people that supported him and for the fact a spot was wasted with so many deserving players in line.
Cris Carter has a really, really low reception average. There are 250 players who averaged at least 15.0 yards a catch. Carter probably is ranked like 500 or worse. Makes me wonder if he ever broke a tackle in his life. Lol!! I know he caught a ton of tippy toe catches like the SB MVP whose name I’ve already forgotten. Big Ben I remember. :) I think he’ll have to wait awhile. In the end the 130 TD’s should get him in.
No thoughts on Kooch not making it? I don’t know why they did that to him for a second year. :( At least now he knows he won’t get in and won’t be bothered with tons of questions.
I haven’t seen you guys commenting for a while on our Senior list. Let me know if you have an a deserving player to add on that doesn’t show up on a All-Decade list and has post season lower than 5. Just give me a paragraph why Committee should support. So far I have add ons for Al Wistert and John Brodie.
Bob kuechenberg will wait like two years and then the Vet committee will nominate him just like Claude Humphrey. Hopefully he will have a better Fate than Humphrey though.
If Cris Carter has to wait awhile, than Andre Reed must feel like he will never get in. Tim Brown is not the lock I thought he was, when he retired.
At positions like WR, CB, S there are incredible logjams.
I thought Tim Brown was a lock like a couple of months ago, now when i look at his stats, he isnt a lock, but he will get in. What do you people think about gary anderson next season? I think he will get in.
In case you’re following this thread, but not the 2010 Senior Candidate thread, I posted Zoneblitz’s thoughts on the 2010 Pro Football Hall of Fame Class:
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2009/02/10/2010-pro-football-hall-of-fame-inductees/
I note that no one here seems to remember my dad Charlie Hennigan, who was instrumental in helping the Oilers to 2 championships. He was a five time all pro who in only 7 seasons and a little over a hundred games still holds the Titans Career TD reception record. He was the first pro receiver to catch over 100 passes, and this in a 14 game season. His 1961 (Oilers championship) season average yards per game is greater than that of any pro receiver in the history of professional football. He’ll be on next years senior ballot. He has not been properly recognized.
Steve Hennigan, MD
Steve,
Good to see you on the site. As a Texan and student of the game I certianly have heard of your Dad. I know he was instrumental in the Titans Championships and a star in the early days of the AFL.
I didn’t include him and other AFL players because only one player (Billy Shaw) with an AFL only career has been inducted to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. If I would of known you could of added him. I’m glad to hear he’ll be on the upcoming Ballot. I hope he does well.
As I’m sure you know your Dad is in the AFL Hall of Fame along with several other deserving superstars of their day. Anyone can check them out at http://www.conigliofamily.com/AFLHallofFamePhotos.htm#CharlieHennigan
The Canton game is just around the corner. Many of the legends of the NFL past will gather to talk about great players and great times. One player that has been on the senior’s list since 1993 is offensive lineman, Dick Stanfel. He was the sole senior nominee in 1993 and failed to be voted into the hall. He is the topic of much conversation particularly among players of his era. Dick played on 2 outstanding Detroit Lions Championship teams ’52 and ’53. They lost to Cleveland in ’54. In 1953, Dick played on a team that featured five HOF members -Doak Walker, Joe Schmidt, Yale Lary, Jack Christiansen, and Lou Creekmur. That year, he was named MVP of the Detroit Lions. The only offensive lineman, to ever be given an MVP award. Dick went on to be All-Pro 5 times and elected to the Pro Bowl 5 times as well.
The biggest “knock” on his career is that he didn’t play enough years (8). He retired as an All-Pro lineman in 1958 and probably had another 3-4 years of playing left in the tank. Instead, an opportunity to coach came along. In those days, playing did not pay much more than coaching, so he opted to start a coaching career. That career lasted almost 40 years with over 30 of them in the NFL mostly as a distinguished o-line coach.
I’m sure if Dick could ‘do it over’, he would have chosen to play enough years to make him a lock for the HOF. I think the way you look at a player of Dick Stanfel’s credentials is to evaluate it based on productivity as opposed to longevity because of the era. 8 years- 5 All Pro, 5 Pro Bowls, 1 MVP as a lineman.
Go to Canton or a card show and ask anyone who played with/against him. His peers think he is deserving as well. Dick Stanfel is deserving of a renomination to the HOF as a senior member.
OK Here are 5 that are always OVERLOOKED and WILL GET IN EVENTUALLY;LOOK AT THEIR STATS FOLKS!
JIM MARSHALL-VIKINGS-Iron Man and solid!
RICKY WATTERS-49ers-Over 10K yards and a great career in 3 cities, over 1000 each team record.
JOEY BROWNER-VIKINGS*Starter all 80’s TEAM!!!
MARK CLAYTON-DOLPHINS-Compare to any HOFamer at WR, Claytons Better other than Rice.
KEN STABLER-RAIDERS-Wow, Much better numbers than STAUBACH and BRADSHAW COMPARISONS
I think he was involved in a strange gun incident
Problems with Rich Perez’s HoF musts, not to mention misuse of stats in some cases:
–Jim Marshall played 20 years and was a 1st team all pro zero times, pro bowler only twice. Those stats certainly mean something, and they don’t suggest a significant HoF snub. And a major consecutive game streak alone does not automatically make a player HoF worthy, or Everett Scott would be in the Baseball HoF.
–Rickey Watters pales compared to his more-or-less contemporary Marshall Faulk, who was a similar type of all-around back and has much better numbers. And Roger Craig has the same issues, adjusting to era.
–Mark Clayton is best compared to players like contemporaries Mark Duper and Gary Clark, and it’s not clear why he belongs in while the rest don’t. Especially given that close contemporary Andre Reed hasn’t even gotten in yet, and he has better raw stats. And comparing Clayton’s raw stats to those of someone already in the HoF like Paul Warfield is very misleading, as such numbers don’t translate well across eras. They need some sort of time-period adjustment.
–comparing Ken Stabler to great shorter career players like Roger Staubach or a Hall of the Very Good type with significant postseason game success such as Terry Bradshaw (4 SB wins) makes no sense at all. In fact, Stabler’s numbers aren’t as good as those of his contemporary Ken Anderson. Elect Anderson first, then let’s talk about Stabler.
–I’m all for Joey Browner getting in the HoF. Problem is, the HoF voters don’t much seem to like safeties, and that includes worthy contemporaries such as Kenny Easley. Browner isn’t the only one getting the shaft here.