We’ve had a lot of good Pro Football Hall of Fame debates here, and I’m sure these names have come up in the comments before, but I thought I’d give them their own thread…
So, for some reason, I’ve got a Google Alert set up to notify me whenever they find pages related to Hall of Fame stuff. I get a lot of junk, but every once in a while, there are some interesting nuggets.
Case in point…
While looking at the latest batch of articles, this Pittsburgh Steelers site’s post about Hines Ward being a lock for the Hall of Fame jumped out at me. I admit, I’m in the group that doesn’t think he’s a lock yet, although he’s at least in the discussion (unlike some of the guys being mentioned in the comments on that story–Aaron Smith? Really?).
I’ll also admit that Ward’s career stats are a lot better than I ever would have given him credit for. I still don’t think he’s a lock right now–zero All-Pro awards, and only five 1,000+ yard seasons (two of which were less than five yards over the mark) in today’s game doesn’t scream lock–especially when Cris Carter doesn’t get in on his first couple tries.
But if he can keep up his current level of play for a couple more seasons, he’s definitely got a good claim to a spot–maybe not a first ballot guy, but a legit claim. Of course, I’ve also seen a lot of WR suddenly hit a wall later in their career, so maintaining his current level of play isn’t a given.
Of course, Steeler Nation and Steller Hall of Fame alumni will undoubtedly call for his induction from the day he retires.
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Cliff Branch is a name I know has been debated some, and his name came up recently on a Raiders Forum as a guy that should be in the Hall. If my math is right (about a 50/50 shot), I think he’s got 1-2 years left of eligibility before going on to the Seniors committee. According to one commenter in the forum, Peter King is now backing him for Canton–not that that really carries a lot of weight.
Given that he didn’t even make the initial semifinalist cut to 25 in 2009, I’d be hard pressed to say Branch makes it before going to the senior committee–but clearly when he gets there, all bets are off.
His career–at least the highly productive part of it–was over before I was old enough to comprehend football–but looking at his stats, like Ward, they don’t jump out as sure thing Hall numbers. He had 501 catches, less than 10,000 yards (8,685), only two 1,000 yard seasons, and 67 touchdowns.
One thing that does jump out at me, though, is the 4-time Pro Bowl and 3-time All-Pro numbers–not huge posteseason profile numbers, but comparable to some contemporaries that are in the Hall, such as teammate Fred Biletnikoff (6/2), Charlie Joiner (3/1, but with better career numbers) and Bob Hayes (3/2, with numbers that don’t stack up to Branch’s).
And, of course, let’s not forget John Stallworth, who’s career numbers are amazingly similar (537-8,723-74) and had a 4/1 postseason honor profile, yet was elected in 2002–and Lynn Swann, who’s numbers pale in comparison to Branch (and frankly even Bob Hayes), had a 3/1 profile, and was elected to the Hall in 2001–presumably thanks to those Super Bowl rings.
So what is everyone’s thoughts on Ward and Branch–Hall of Fame worthy, or not?
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Lets me start with Hines Ward first:
0/4. 842 receptions, 10,382 receiving yards, and 74 receiving TD’s(75 total). The kicker for him is the Super Bowl MVP and 2 Super Bowl rings. 4 Pro Bowls is pretty low. And he has no 1st team All Pro selection either. He is still producing good numbers. He could end up like Andre Reed, who keeps waiting for his chance. Andre is a 0/7. Or they(the voters) can see pace the stats, as in, his blocking skills. He is one of the best blockers in the NFL non Lineman type. They made a rule after him. I think he gets in one of these days.
Cliff Branch: 3/4. 501 receptions, 8,685 receiving yards, and 67 receiving TD’s. 3 Super Bowl Rings. 501 receptions is low, but so do Bob Hayes(371) and John Stallworth(537). Honestly, I dont know if he will get in. Here is a list of players who in my mind are ahead of Cliff: Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, Cris Carter, Randy Moss, Andre Reed, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt.
When will Boomer Esiason get in!!!!!!!!! hahaha
I don’t disagree that those guys all probably deserve the HOF more than Branch at this point–but looking at those numbers, I do wonder how he was never more strongly considered before this rush of WR that we’re going to have in the next 10 years started playing to that level. Especially compared to a guy like Swann, who clearly had inferior numbers.
That’s true about Lynn Swann. I always wondered why he was elected to the HOF. 1/3 is very low. I guess the 4 Super Bowl rings and 1 Super Bowl MVP helps. I also can’t believe he made the 1970’s All Decade Team.
Am thinking Hines Ward has minimal to no chance at the HoF at present, though he still has time to add to his numbers. He’ll be up against players like Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, and Marvin Harrison, and that’s stiff competition for his position — good luck there. And am guessing his blocking prowess will make little difference.
Cliff Branch is stuck in a logjam of 70s WRs with similar numbers, Harold Jackson, Drew Pearson, and Harold Carmichael most notably. Am guessing the HoF voters can’t decide who to elevate in out of this group, so they haven’t elected anybody.
Lynn Swann is arguably one of the weakest players in the HoF. His career is short and his numbers aren’t the best. Swann, like Paul Hornung, likely transcended “Hall of the Very Good” numbers and got elected because of postseason success otherwise reserved for QBs such as Bobby Layne, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, etc. Perhaps not surprisingly, Swann holds the record for being a HoF finalist the most times before being voted in at 14. And please note that any argument comparing your favorite HoF snub to one of the weakest players in is a poor argument for that snubbed player.
When I think about premier 70’s WR’s Cliff Branch is certianly at the top of my list along with Drew Pearson. And 501 catches is a great number for the time when compared to Warfield, Swann and Jackson. He was the Raiders deep threat for a good part of his career with nice career avg of 17.3
Most guys today don’t come close with the GREAT Cris Carter at 12.6 and catching about 1,000 5 yd passes. How hard is it for a Pro to catch a 5yd pass and a 6’3″ guy to out jump a Corner 3 or4 inches shorter in the end zone? The WR position has changed so much since the 1980’s and the use of West Coast Offense. It’s more difficult to compare WR stats in relation to their greatness now. With the stats going up and up at some point the voters will leave some high stat guys out of the HOF like Vinny and Bledsoe at QB.
Cliff Branch was a spectacular WR along with the likes of Mel Gray, Roger Carr and Harold Jackson. All were known for catching the bomb and routinely would be seen on Howard Cosell’s Halftime clips on Monday Night Football.
I personally think if the duo of Swann and Stallworth belong in the HOF than Biletnikoff and Branch belong too.
And how about getting one of Roger Staubach’s WR’s in the HOF? Drew Pearson belongs!! Harold Charmichael was the least flashy WR IMO in all of football. At 6’8″ it was hard to keep him from catching a jump ball. Imagine when he went up against Perry and Thomas two of the better CB’s who played for the Rams. Both were 5’9″ bookends. I’m not sure he belongs in the HOF? He was good after the catch and did run nice routes. I think he was better than Plaxico Burress. I think others should go before him. Comparing him to Branch is like apples to watermellons. :)
The Steelers wouldn’t of won the SB’s without Hines Ward. He a rare breed of toughness at WR that along with Big Ben gives the Steelers O an energy to feed off of that helps them win the close games. He’s also so clutch!! He’s got good stats but he’s one of those guys you have to see play over a long time to appreciate. It will be interesting if the voters appreciate his intangibles.
I would definetly vote Ward into the HOF but it might be tough to pick him over another WR with huge stats. Based on Swann’s low stats it certianly seems possible to look at style over sheer numbers. Not sure about today’s WR’s though?
Maybe many times WR’s get excuded from the HOF because like I heard a WR say, his job is to be there to bail out the QB if needed. Many times the WR isn’t involved heavily in the plays unless you have a real go to “Rice or Owens type” that is so great when he touches the ball that much of the Offense must go through that one WR. That’s the only theory I can think of for their not being more WR’s in the HOF. WR is not considered a vitale position due to lack of touches. A Punter many times touches the ball more in a game. :)
Tony P.–
One might characterize your comparison of Harold Carmichael to Cliff Branch as being the difference between a possession receiver and a deep threat. I think there’s a place for both types of WRs in the HoF.