OK, getting caught up on some recent Hall of Fame articles I’ve seen, and putting a couple names out for debate.
First, a name that I’m sure we’ve discussed before–but possibly a bit of a new spin on it, and a name that I think will get a lot of debate once he retires…Donovan McNabb.
Leave it to an Eagles fan/blogger, but Bob Cunningham over at 2 Minutes to Midnight Green believes that McNabb is a Hall of Famer–simply because his stats are better than Troy Aikman’s, and because (he believes) that Aikman was surrounded by better talent than McNabb ever has been–making McNabb’s stats that much more impressive.
Of course, Cunningham also points out the biggest flaw in his argument, that McNabb has not won (or even been to) three Super Bowls in his career.
And the comparison of talent around McNabb vs. Aikman is simplified reatly at best–saying it was Emmitt Smith vs. Brian Westbrook and Michael Irvin vs. James Thrash isn’t a true enough comparison to mean much of anything.
I will grant that Aikman probably did have better overall talent around him–but the difference was a lot closer than Irvin vs. Thrash.
And I’m still not sure where I land in the debate on McNabb’s Hall of Fame credentials…
And in a post that I found even more entertaining, someone at something called Frumpzilla.com posted an interesting argument last week that Herschel Walker deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Please note, I said interesting–not compelling, as he hopes.
Walker was an ok player in his day, and he did manage to put up decent overall numbers in his NFL career–in fact, his rushing yardage and TDs were better than a certain senior candidate going into the Hall of Fame in 2010, even if you just compare his first nine seasons in the NFL (Walker’s last three seasons didn’t amount to much).
So there’s an argument that actually holds a little bit of water–although, most people around here didn’t seem to think that Little deserved the nod in Canton.
But to compare Walkers total yardage (including kickoff returns) to Tony Dorsett’s total yardage (when Dorsett didn’t return kicks) is a bit of a stretch.
And while they’re right that this is technically the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the NFL Hall of Fame, let’s be serious–the nearly 5,600 yards rushing Walker gained in the USFL, against mostly marginal players, doesn’t make him arguably the best RB in football history–nor will it help him into the Hall of Fame.
There are no exclusively Canadian Football League players in the Hall of Fame, no Arena Football League players in the Hall of Fame, and some people argue that even the AFL is under represented in the Hall.
If you look at the profile pages on the Hall of Fame Web site for Gary Zimmerman, Steve Young, Reggie White and Jim Kelly–the only four USFL players to make the Hall of Fame (to date), none of them list their USFL team/career in their summary at the top of the page, and only mention them playing for the ill-fated in their biographies in passing.
So could Walker make the Hall of Fame someday? Sure, given this year’s senior voting, anything is possible. But I wouldn’t hold my breath.
What do you guys think of McNabb after his 2009 season, and Walker’s credentials?
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Thanks for reading the Herschel article (and linking it), and I appreciate your critical points.
The all-purpose yardage is relevant, IMO, when you consider the fact (also highlighted in the article) that Dorsett has nearly 1,000 more career carries than Walker, despite the same number of NFL seasons, and their YPC is a wash (4.3 to 4.2, respectively). It’s not expressly stated in the argument, but the implication was supposed to question the dynamics of how players are utilized, or perhaps under utilized, and, more importantly, how pundits/voters subsequently view, weigh and analyze the corresponding statistical output.
When you consider Dorsett’s team situations compared to Walker’s, and the fact that Tony has only 6 more TD’s (despite, again, the 982 more carries), it becomes even more interesting. The point of it all being, of course: No one would ever really question that Tony Dorsett is a sure fire HOFer…so why does someone that was, at worst, ultimately quite statistically similar never receive even remote consideration?
I hesitated including the USFL aspect to the piece, because I knew it would open the door to arguments and diversions that really don’t strike the heart of the matter, IMO. I obviously don’t think Herschel’s USFL stats should be taken into consideration for purposes of The Hall, at least not directly. After all, for purposes of acknowledging the disparity in competition, I did suggest to cut them in half. I also alluded to the question of whether they’re even necessary to make him a legitimate candidate (given the comparison to Tony, amongst other things I didn’t delve into). Still, I think they are important in the sense that, if nothing else, they serve as a tragic reminder of what might have been.
I mean, in retrospect, the poor guy essentially wasted 3 of his prime production years (especially for RB’s), because of a failed business model (to the victors go the spoils, I suppose). Sure, he only has himself to blame for that, and it will in all likelihood end up costing him a spot in Canton, but still…given how marginal a candidate he is, I think it’s worth noting.
Now, onto this something called Zoneblitz.com. If I don’t win the award for longest, most verbose comment in the site’s history, I’m going to be bitterly disappointed ;). Thanks again for reading.
Ciaran – Thanks for checking out our post and adding your thoughts. I will admit, your article made me at least consider the idea of Walker as a HOFer–like I said, not sure I’m convinced he is, but I don’t know that I ever would have considered him at all until I saw your post. I definitely think he’s got better numbers than some of the guys in the Hall, or getting in–specifically thinking of Floyd Little in this year’s class. But I don’t think Little deserved it in the fist place. So maybe the senior committee votes him in eventually too.
The only reason that I have trouble adding his KR stats into the consideration (at least at the same value as rushing stats) is that even an average KR is going to get 18-22 yards on average per kick return. It’s the same reason that I look at a Brian Mitchell’s career yardage total and say “Meh” when it comes to HOF consideration for him.
As for an award for the longest, most verbose comment in our history…I think you might be close, but you’d have to see some of the posts on our Hall of Fame threads–Tony Parslow in particular would probably give you a run for your money…
I hope you’ll add Zoneblitz to your regularly read blog list–I added Frumpzilla to my RSS reader…even though your affliction with NC State bothers me (being a Gophers fan, I wasn’t shocked by the 2000 Micron PC Bowl second half, but I still hold it against them–that and Koren Robinson’s driving habits on the streets of Minnesota…)
I think McNabb needs a ring to be in as of now. I was looking at some profiles of players who are on the fence and I came across Florida’s finest Lomas Brown. I took a glance at his Career AV and it is 96, which is 173rd overall since 1950. Thats pretty good. Hes a 7 time Pro Bowler, but he only made 1 first team All Pro.
Jim Marshall’s Career AV is 107 and that ranks 83rd all time since 1950. He only made the Pro Bowl 2 times and he has no 1st Team APs.
What does this Career AV mean?
I don’t see a good argument for Donovan McNabb for the HoF as of now. He’ll likely be the best QB of his time not in unless Drew Brees isn’t elected. And comparing McNabb to Troy Aikman doesn’t work, as they’re not contemporaries and Aikman gets a boost up into the HoF from his HotVG stats from his 3 SB rings. McNabb of course has no SB success, but give him 3 rings with his current numbers and he’d get elected, too.
The best argument for Herschel Walker, and it’s not an entirely unreasonable one to make either, is his lifetime total yardage stats while in the NFL, which are more impressive than some remember. And note well that any USFL player in the PFHoF would likely be in even if one only takes their NFL stats into account. One can legitimately argue that the USFL’s level of play was sufficiently weak that any numbers put up there are suspect.
Does Lawyer Milloy have a case? He has 11 seasons with 90+ tackles and hes a 4 time pro bowler
@Brad – I don’t think Milloy has a shot. Not with Ed Reed, Brian Dawkins, Rodney Harrison, Darren Sharper, John Lynch and Troy Polamalu in the same rough time frame–not that I think all of those guys are worthy of getting in either. Milloy has been a solid but not great player, in my mind.
Lets talk Head Coaches. Don Coryell was recently shot down in his HOF bid but are there any other old time coaches possibly deserving?
Does Lou Saban of AFL fame have a shot? I think he was one of the better coaches in his day. What about Chuck Knox? All he did was win every where he went with less than stellar QB’s.
Any idea who would be the least deserving HC in the HOF?
Following up on my previous comments, I guess the best prospects other than shoe-ins like Parcells and Dungy would be Tom Flores (2 SB wins), Dan Reeves (4 SB losses), Dick Vermeil (1 SB win and 1 loss with 3 successful rebuilds), Don Coryell (Air-Coryell may deserve another shot??) and Chuck Knox (a great defensive coach – was Chuck Noll without the SB wins)
A guy I would support 100% is London Fletcher. He is very underrated. Just like Curtis Martin. Martin would have been a first ballot HOFer if Marshall Faulk retired a year earlier.
Some thoughts:
–have significant doubts London Fletcher is getting anywhere near the HoF. His postseason profile is 0/1/none, which is about along the lines of Tedi Bruschi (0/1/none), Mike Vrabel (1/1/none), and Takeo Spikes (1/2/none).
–re coaches and the HoF. It’s pretty much a lock that Bill Belichick is getting in with 3 SB wins and “Games, Wins-Losses” stats of 240, 148-92. Tony Dungy has a moderately good chance at 208, 139-69 (a W-L percentage notably better than the Vermiel/Shanahan/Cowher/Holmgren group below) with 1 SB win, plus being the first head coach of color to win a SB. Otherwise, there are long service coaches with no SB success such as Chuck Knox at 334, 186-147 and Dan Reeves at 357, 190-165 and Marty Schottenheimer at 327, 200-126 in a logjam and another group of recent coaches in Dungy’s range that aren’t eligible yet, including Dick Vermiel at 229, 120-109 (1 SB win) and Mike Shanahan at 244, 146-98 (2 SB wins) and Bill Cowher at 240, 149-90 (1 SB win) and Mike Holmgren at 272, 161-111 (1 SB win), all of whom may cancel each other out. Lou Saban at 201, 95-99 (2 AFL titles) and Tom Flores at 184, 97-87 (2 SB wins) don’t appear to be worthy of significant consideration given their shorter careers and lack of career regular season W-L success. And that likely is why Don Coryell didn’t get a sniff last year — he’s at 195, 111-83 with no postseason success and a reputation for fielding defenses as bad as his offenses were good. Coryell’s best chance at the HoF may be as a contributor somewhere far down the road.