Former Redskins Linebacker Chris Hanburger and former Rams Linebacker Les Richter were selected from a field of 16 finalists to be the 2011 Senior Candidates for induction to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio.
The two will be included in a vote with five other “modern” finalists as determined by the Hall of Fame voting committee in the coming months. Earlier this month, 2010 senior candidates Floyd Little and Dick LaBeau, not considered strong candidates by many Zoneblitz readers, were inducted into the Hall of Fame.
Hanburger played his entire fourteen year career with the Washington Redskins, making the pro bowl nine times and being named first team All-Pro four times after being an 18th (final) round selection out of North Carolina in 1965.
Richter, who died earlier this year at 79, was a first round draft choice of the New York Yanks in 1952, but was subsequently traded to the Los Angeles Rams for 11 players, the largest trade ever made for a single player. He played for the Rams for nine seasons, making eight pro bowls and one first team All-Pro selection. Richter also served as a kicker for his first three seasons (and made a couple of later career kicking appearances), making 106 of 109 PAT attempts and 29 of 55 field goals.
After leaving the NFL, Richter went on to become a high-ranking official with NASCAR.
In recent comments left on Zoneblitz.com, Hanburger was named by several as a likely candidate for 2011, while Richter wasn’t named by anyone (that I saw). In fact, in his popular list of potential senior candidates from last year, regular commenter Tony P. didn’t even include Richter in the original list, only adding him three weeks after the original list was posted, presumably after receiving feedback from other regulars.
So, let’s start the discussion anew–Hanburger and Richter–worthy candidates, and why or why not?
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From everyone I have read Hanburger is certainly a worthy candidate (4/9), but as mentioned Richter is someone whose name has not come up often in these discussions and from lists and names prepared previously there certainly are more deserving candidates. One has to wonder whether one of the nine committee members was able to use sympathy from his recent death to sway four other voters (majority of 5 will get a nominee selected as a candidate) to vote for him. Callous and perhaps unfair I know, but politics play a big part in these decisions.
Kudos for selecting Hanburger! What about Johnny Robinson? They still have something against the obvious with the Richter selection. I had him on one of my lists somewhere but I thought his chances were very remote.
Come on!! With the large number of players already from the 50’s in the HOF it appears it will be regarded as the most talented decade ever.
Les Richter actually wouldn’t be an unreasonable HoF choice. His postseason profile of 4(1AP)/8/none is competitive with other LBs already in. He was also a PK for the first third of his career, and pretty good at it (a 52% career FG percentage during the mid-50s is fine). Extra credit there.
Chris Hanburger at 5(4AP)/9/none is of course a most worthy option.
Bachslunch,
Unreasonable choice?? Is that a yes or no vote? Did you ever see him play?
Les Richter is the gentleman I saw earlier this year on a Nascar TV segment. He must of just passed away at the time. He was considered an icon in the Nascar community and deservingly so. Why is this high profile guy after all of these years finally being considered the same year as his death??
Last year it was Dick LeBeau. Most of the football community who supported him (players) didn’t even know what he did as a player. They didn’t care because they loved their defensive coach. At least that’s the way it appeared listening from the outside. Why was he than elected the same year of his team winning the Super Bowl as the media bantied about his name constantly as a defensive guru. No doubt it didn’t hurt to be working for the Rooney family. :)
And with Miami’s Nick Buoniconti there appeared to consideration outside of football. I could go on and on. And the politics goes the other way in keeping folks out like with Bob Hayes where it appeared the Committee as a matter of politics waited until after his death to make him a HOFer. I don’t doubt that most of us thought it would happen but it appears they weren’t going to let it happen while he was alive due to his personal problems which many believe.
Personally, I’m sick of the politicking that goes on to get many of these players into the HOF. It seems like they are developing a consensus first and than merit second to fit the choice.
I thought you guys my enjoy. It might make a good topic of discussion?? I’ll certianly dispute some of his choices. My Dolphins get hit hard!!
http://thepulplist.com/2009/09/the-top-15-worst-nfl-hall-of-fame-members/
Here’s a guy that agrees with me. LOL!! Well not exactly. I have some appreciation for the Senior Committe although frought with corruption. LOL!! And I have to admit a lot of his review makes my blood boil. Sounds like a young man relying a little too much on stats without an appreciation for the times. :) See if you agree.
PS – I wonder if he knows that Bob Griese was legally blind in one eye for most of his career and the year he began to wear corrective eye glasses he became MVP of the League completing over 60% of his passes which was very high for the time.
I wanna say it’s about time Hanburger gets consideration. The numbers speak for themselves. Richter is deserving too I think.
I will also post this on the link of the top 15 worst members:
Stallworth, Carson, Wehrli, Wright, and Riggins I all think are worthy Many of the senior/veterans committee nominees got in and deservedly so.So you can’t criticize everyone.
http://thepulplist.com/2009/09/the-top-15-worst-nfl-hall-of-fame-members/
Another example of someone evaluating players on the “eyeball” test or “I personally did not like that player” approach. Strong cases, based on their career and playoff numbers and successes, along with multiple ProBowls and All Pro teams, and membership in Teams of the Decade, can be made that all of those 15 deserve to be in the HOF.
And I am not a believer in this idea that since they were not selected by the modern committee then their selection as Seniors is somehow invalid or lessor achievement. You can be one of the top 4 at your position in a given decade, but not get elected as a modern candidate simply because of the limited number of spots in each election as every year, and every decade, brings another mass of players to be considered. Easy to see how a player could be passed over for 15 years of elections.
Paul,
I thought the problem was Kiya didn’t use the eyeball test. His comments clearly reflect that he never saw these players play subsequently relying soley on stats, rumors and like you said a strong dislike for some of the players. Not liking John Madden the sportscaster is know reason to keep the coach out of the HOF. LOL
Some of the follow up comments really roasted him for being so hung up on stats. He has some other blogs on pulp list that are equally outlandish. :) You should check them out. He does a Top 20 Homerun hitters of all time list and leaves Reggie Jackson, Frank Thomas and Jim Thome off the list while including all of the steroid players on the list.
In many cases he also ignores basic stats and awards that would provide strong evidence for the HOF candidacy of many of the players he lists, for example John Riggins where he ignores career rushing numbers and career TDs along with playoff numbers and his membership of the Team of the 1980s. When he retired and also when eligible for the HOF Riggins ranked in the top five in both career rushing and career TDs. By the “eyeball” test what I was referring to was ignoring many basic stats and awards when evaluating a HOF player.
Agreed, he thoroughly botches the evaluation. Anyone care to come up with a well thought out list ? I wouldn’t say “worst” but rather say least accomplished. LOL How’s that for PC? :)
tony p said: “Bachslunch, Unreasonable choice?? Is that a yes or no vote? Did you ever see him play?”
To answer, that’s a yes vote re Les Richter from me, and no I didn’t see him play — he was before my time. But his postseason honors are certainly solid enough to make him a good HoF choice. There are other players I might have given higher priority to, but I’m fine with Richter being both nominated and elected.
I should also add that I think this was a much better pair of Senior nominations, for a change. Hanburger certainly belongs in, and Richter is also deserving. Certainly better than what the committee has come up with in past years. About time, too.
Re this article:
http://thepulplist.com/2009/09/the-top-15-worst-nfl-hall-of-fame-members/
this author’s a bozo, and there are a lot of them out there with a website pulpit to show off their ignorance. For starters, there are many Seniors who have been voted in and are excellent choices (Gene Hickerson, Rayfield Wright, Benny Friedman, Bob Brown, Carl Eller, Dave Wilcox, Billy Shaw, Tommy McDonald, Henry Jordan, Lou Creekmur, Stan Jones, and Bill Willis, for starters) , not to mention several deserving players who have never had their cases heard, should have, and now can only do so as Seniors (Al Wistert, Lavvie Dilweg, Verne Lewellen, Mick Tingelhoff, Maxie Baughan, for starters — Chris Hanburger is finally getting his chance now). And I disagree with Dave Casper, Rayfield Wright, Roger Wehrli, Andre Tippett, Dan Hampton, Harry Carson, Michael Irvin, or John Riggins being on such a list, and see no problems with Bob Griese or John Madden or Larry Csonka being in. The only ones he got right were Joe Namath, Paul Hornung, Lynn Swann, and maybe John Stallworth. And the fact that he does not include Emmitt Thomas, Dick LeBeau, Floyd Little, Fred Dean, and Wayne Millner shows lack of perception.
For me, any “worst HoF members list” should include Namath, Hornung, Swann, Thomas, LeBeau, Little, Dean, and Millner. That’s eight right there. If you want more, choose from among Stallworth, Bob St. Clair, Mike McCormack, Elvin Bethea, or Joe Guyon.
Bachslunch,
We agree a lot. :) I also think Namath, Hourning and Swann would among the poorest choices. I’ve come to the realization that Hanburger is a good pick and once I allow myself to get beyond the flawed process agree with the the Richter selection. I definetly belive the Committee responded to several years of critism with safe picks.
In addition I’d add to the list of poor choices: Floyd Little, Fred Dean and Andre Tippett. Some guys who would be easy to pick without the eye test are Dan Hampton (made Singletary a HOFer), Harry Carson (great player with the misfortune of playing beside the best LB ever?) and Dave Casper (best TE of 1970’s).
I’m surprised he didn’t put the best decoy in history Paul Warfield on his list.
The biggest outrage is puting Michael Irvin on the list. I’m his biggest critic and not a fan but he played the game his way and got away with it having tremendous success. Would be a joke to leave him out of HOF.
I think it’s a joke that Ray Nitschke isn’t on his list.
As for Floyd Little being a poor choice, can someone explain how? He retired as the 7th all time leading rusher and the 6 guys ahead of him at that time are in Canton. He also made two AFL All Star games, three Pro Bowls and rushed for 6,263 yards all without having a Pro Bowl offensive lineman.
Bob St. Clair one of the worst members? He was a 9 time All Pro!
Bethea had 8 Pro Bowls
I also wouldn’t consider Stallworth a mistake due to the fact that he had good numbers for his time.
It’s not that Irvin shouldn’t be in, but he shouldn’t have gotten in before Monk and Reed.
Corey, Floyd Little’s being a weak HoF choice is well documented here and elsewhere. The argument that he finished 7th on the all-time list is not a good one since the 8th and 9th all time leaders at the time weren’t in either, and nobody was breaking down the door for either of them (Ken Willard and Don Perkins). And my impression is that he’s in good company with a 2/3/none profile among RBs, that this isn’t anything special. There’s an especially good argument against Little’s candidacy over at the blog section of the pro-football-reference.com website:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=5757
Bob St. Clair was not a “9 time all pro,” or at least not a first team all pro. He reached this level of accomplishment only three times (I’m not considering Sporting News a front-line team). In other words 3(0AP)/5/50s. Not bad, but definitely not elite, either. Compare him with more or less contemporaries Roosevelt Brown at 8(6AP)/9/50s and Forrest Gregg at 8(7AP)/9/60s and the gulf is pretty large. He’s likely a better HoF choice than Mike McCormack, however.
Elvin Bethea was never once named a first team all pro by any organization, and he’s not on any all-decade teams. His 8 pro bowls are where his qualifications start and end.
John Stallworth compares not so favorably to several WRs not in from the time such as Harold Carmichael, Drew Pearson, Harold Jackson, and Cliff Branch.
Ray Nitschke is a very unusual outlier, and I’ve mentioned in posts here and elsewhere the concept of the “Ray Nitschke exception.” His numbers are 3(2AP)/1/60s, and he had the misfortune of playing in the Western Conference at the same time as first Bill George and Joe Schmidt, and later on Dick Butkus. These three invariably got the pro bowl nods and usually got the 1st team all pro selections. The same problem befell the careers of Sam Huff, and to some extent Tommy Nobis and Lee Roy Jordan. Nitschke’s strengths appear to be revealed via film study, and note well that according to the HoF’s website, he was named the NFL’s all-time top linebacker in 1969 — according to Wikipedia (for what it’s worth) by the NFL itself in honor of the league’s 50th Anniversary.
Other players who I think would be better choices for “worst PFHoF-er” that I hadn’t mentioned above would be George Preston Marshall, Walt Kiesling, and Alex Wojciechowicz.
I can see why now people are against Floyd Little in the HOF and now he probably was a mistake. As for Willard,he doesn’t warrant HOF consideration to me. Perkins on the otherhand, I believe has a case.
As for Nitschke, if he got outclassed by all those linebackers, why? How come he wasn’t good enough in the eyes of his peers to make only one pro bowl? A three time first team all pro and four time second team all pro. A good linebacker, but not a Hall of Famer. The man played on a dynasty and a perfect example of political hogwash. If Nitschke played in San Francisco during his day, he wouldn’t be in. Fran Tarkenton said it best: players don’t win championships. Teams win championships. Him and Mad Dog Curtis were two very good linebackers. But do either of them deserve a bust in Canton? I’ll have to take a pass. I did a clip on youtube where I ranked Ray Nitschke as the most overrated player in NFL history and I can’t believe some people rank him in the top 10 of all time linebackers.
Bethea in 1975 also was named an All Pro by College and Pro Newsweekly. Eight Pro Bowls are a lot, and if somebody can make eight Pro Bowls in their career, why not get a spot in the HOF?
After doing research about Stallworth, you’re right in comparing Jackson, Carmichael, and Branch, he does seem to fall short. As for Pearson.
Pearson: 3 Pro Bowls
Stallworth: 4
Receptions
Pearson: 489
Stallworth: 537
Receiving yards
Pearson: 7,822
Stallworth: 8,723
Touchdown receptions
Pearson: 48
Stallworth: 63
So by the numbers Stallworth out muscles him. Add to the fact that he played on a dynasty that beat Pearson’s Cowboys twice, I don’t think the voters are gonna judge Pearson too favorably, even though he has a ring. I’m not saying this logic is right, but I KNOW the Hall of Fame. Sure the Baseball and Hockey Hall of Fame have guys missing, but no other Hall of Fame voting process is more messed up than the one in Canton.
“but no other Hall of Fame voting process is more messed up than the one in Canton.”
Compare the last 10 years of elections between the pro football and hockey HOFs and it is clear that hockey’s is a real mess.
At 260 members, debating the merits of perhaps 15 questionable selections (representing only 5% of total) suggests to me the pro football HOF does a pretty good job.
Corey, thanks for the reply. Here’s the list of postseason all-pro honors of any kind for Elvin Bethea, according to pro-football-reference.com:
1969 UPI: 2nd Team All-AFL
1971 Pro Football Weekly: 1st Team All-Conf.
UPI: 2nd Team All-Conf.
1972 Sporting News: 1st Team All-Conf.
UPI: 2nd Team All-Conf.
1973 UPI: 2nd Team All-Conf.
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 2nd Team All-NFL
1974 Pro Football Weekly: 1st Team All-Conf.
UPI: 2nd Team All-Conf.
1975 Associated Press: 2nd Team All-NFL
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 2nd Team All-NFL
1978 Pro Football Weekly: 1st Team All-Conf.
UPI: 1st Team All-Conf.
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 2nd Team All-NFL
1979 Associated Press: 2nd Team All-NFL
I see some 2nd team all-league and some 1st team all-conference honors here, but not one 1st team all-league honor from any organization.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on Nitschke. For what it’s worth, I’ve never seen an opinion from someone who knows the NFL well who thinks Nitschke doesn’t belong in the HoF. Again, it’s primarily a film study thing and a by-product of the overload of talented MLBs from this era — somebody’s got to get left out on the curb here, I guess. I’m not sure how well-liked Nitschke was by opponents — he was a pretty hard-nosed player — and that might also have contributed to his lack of pro bowl berths.
I have to agree with Paul on this one. The PFHoF does have some weak members (and there have been some real klunkers voted in recently), but compared to the Baseball and Hockey Halls, the percentage of worthy players there is good in comparison. We’re actually having to struggle to find 15 “worst” players to talk about, after all, and the snub list for this HoF is very high compared to that of other sports.
Baseball has indeed let in a bunch of poor options, a number via the crony-ridden Vets Committee (especialyl when headed up by Frankie Frisch) and some others who were voted in early on, while the Hockey Hall strikes me as a relatively non-elite collection of players. I can back my thoughts on the Baseball Hall on request, but will decline to do so on the Hockey one as I don’t know its membership as well.
bachslunch, I appreciate you taking the time to further on Nitschke and Beathea. One thing I disagree with is your logic that his hard nosed play contributed to his lack of Pro Bowl berths. Chris Hanburger had nine and was said to be a rough, horse collar tackler. So I’m not sure if that is it.
Dr Z, before he fell ill, said Doak Walker was in his opinion the weakest player elected to Canton.
As far as Elvin Bethea goes, I saw him play many Sunday’s of his career and I’m sure what I saw was greatness and a HOF caliber player. I’m surprised he made 8 PB’s playing for a 1-13 Oiler team and a team that really sucked for most of the 70’s .
Defense was all they had for those years with a horrible QB and OL that couldn’t protect him. Bethea and Ken Houston really stood out in those early years but as you know it can be hard to get credit on a sorry team. I think most folks began to notice the Oilers around 1976. With addition of Culp and Brazile, Bethea took a little bit of a back seat (plus by his 30’s he may of lost a step off the edge but was still a great tackler), kind of in the way Harry Carson did with Pepper Johnson and Lawerence Taylor coming on the scene. It doesn’t diminish the great players they were. Just look at the film from the first 8-9 years of their careers.
IMO, I feel certian that Bethea was a better than Claude Humphrey who recently failed to make the grade and better than Fred Deanover the length of his career. Elvin was one hell of a strong man and with Curly Culp were as formidable on the DL as they come.
Interesting info, boknows34. I don’t always agree with Dr. Z, but I often find myself doing so, and given that he was a film study devotee, his observation likely should carry some decent weight.
Doak Walker came up in a “weakest HoF player” discussion over at the pfraforum website back earlier this year. Scattered among the naysayers on that thread were some old-timers (like the late Bob Carroll) there who were of the opinion that Walker was better than his stats indicated. There’s no question Walker’s stats at cursory glance don’t look like those of a first-tier HoF-er:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WalkDo00.htm
He essentially played for 5-1/2 years (1952 was shortened to 7 games, I’m guessing due to injury), and clearly having a short career does not help him here. He was a jack-of-all-trades who did about everything except sell beer at the concession stand — he was a running back who had some (if maybe not very impressive) rushing yardage and pretty respectable pass catching totals, he was the team’s place kicker (and did this pretty well given his stats), returned kicks and punts, was the team’s punter, and played defensive back. Doing a lot of things and many of them well may or may not be enough.
Interestingly enough, his postseason honors profile is stellar. During the 6 year span he played, he finished up as 5(4AP)/5/none, only failing to receive honors in his injury-shortened year. The suggestion is that contemporary observers thought really highly of him despite the stats he put up.
Myself, I’m not sure how to interpret all this. He was certainly before my time, so I wouldn’t have gotten to see him play live.
The pfraforum discussions occurred here:
http://www.pfraforum.org/index.php?showtopic=546&view=&hl=%22bottom%20of%20the%20top%22&fromsearch=1
(see posts #10 through #15)
http://www.pfraforum.org/index.php?showtopic=549
(see posts #1 and #3 especially)
Additionally Bethea has an unofficial 105 sacks which is very respectable for the time.
My only comment about john Stallworth is that he was great no doubt but the HOF voters backed themselves into a terrible corner when they elected Swann in because Stallworth had the better career. And Swann and everyone else knew it. I view Stallworth with his grace and speed as a “Paul Warfield type” because he sacrificed his career IMO quite a lot for the teams success. Now that I think of it he kind of reminds me of John Taylor with his knack for the long TD.
Does anyone who saw Drew Pearson on a regular basis not think he was a HOF WR?
And IMO the Cowboys had another WR who was equally or more skilled with Tony Hill. Than you had Billy Joe Depree and Golden Richards and Butch Johnson and Preston Pearson taking receptions away from Drew.
Elvin Bethea IMO was definately a HOFamer. He was a standout DE during the 70’s. he was much more than a pass rusher as he was also excellent against the run and was durable as well. I believe he is every bit as good as Howie Long or Len Ford and better than Fred Dean.
Today the HOF released the list of preliminary modern era nominees (113) for the Class of 2011
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/2010/9/13/class-of-2011-preliminary-nominees-named/
Still waiting for Joe Fortunato to get his chance to enter the Hall. He was a great linebacker for the Bears. What are your thoughts on his chances?
Where can I get a list of all senior nominees/
Do mean list of senior nominees considered this past summer (during selection of Hanburger and Richter) as I believe such a list is not publically available.
I normally include Joe Fortunato on my short list for deserving OLBs from the 50s, 60s, and 70s these days, along with Maxie Baughan, Chuck Howley, Robert Brazile, and Larry Grantham. Hopefully, Chris Hanburger will finally leave this list and be elected to the HoF in February. I’m not sure his chances are any better than these folks, though — unfortunately, there’s a bumper crop of deserving OLB omissions who should be in.
HOF class announced within a month. If Hanburger doesnt get elected I am considering picketing outside of Canton on Induction Day.
What about Lee Roy Jordan? His stats are comparable to Chris Hanburger’s.
1963-1976 1965-1978
Games- Jordan-186 Hanburger-187
INT- Jordan-32 Hanburger-19
TDS- Jordan-3 Hanburger-2
FUM REC- Jordan-18 Hanburger-17
TDS- Jordan-0 Hanburger-2
SAFETYS- Jordan-1 Hanburger-0
TACKLES- Jordan-129 Hanburger-148
Jordan made 5 Pro Bowls, Hanburger 9. Jordan had 2 All Pro Selections between first and second team. Hanburger 6. Hanburger is the only player not enshrined in Canton with a combination of a selection of 15 All Pros and Pro Bowls. Yes Jordan has a Super Bowl but Hanburger played well in his only Super Bowl appearance with 6 tackles. I would say Hanburger is a top 10 linebacker of all time. Can’t say the same for Jordan.
Agreed with Corey here. Another critical point — the eminently HoF deserving Chris Hanburger is an outside LB, which is a badly under-represented HoF position (currently only Dave Wilcox, Ted Hendricks, Jack Ham, and Bobby Bell from the 60s-70s fit that description). Lee Roy Jordan was a middle LB, and there are many examples of 1960s-70s HoF-ers at this position (Bill George, Joe Schmidt, Willie Lanier, Ray Nitschke, Sam Huff, Jack Lambert, Nick Buoniconti, and Dick Butkus). If you’re going to be a Cowboys “homer,” push for OLB Chuck Howley, who is clearly deserving, as are Maxie Baughan, Robert Brazile, Larry Grantham, and Joe Fortunato. I say get these folks in before inducting yet more MLBs from this era.
Besides, getting a Super Bowl ring boost into the HoF doesn’t historically happen for HotVG defensive players. And tackles is a very unreliable statistic to cite, regardless — plus it’s hard to see what relevance the stats BOYS5512 brings up have.
Chris Hanburger is a “no-brainer” for HOF. 9 pro bowls and 4 first team all pro selctions sum it up. Great hard nosed player with tremendous football IQ. Ran the defense for George Allen and that says a lot.
Eight time Pro Bowler, one time in that eight year span a first team All-Pro and all this done in just nine years. Les Richter IS a hall of famer!
Why it took the Pro Football Hall of Fame so long to enshrine Chris Hanburger with his credentials is a definite skull scratcher. At least he’s finally in. Better late than never I guess.
Chris should have made the HOF many moons ago. Glad he got there however. He was a truly amazing in his day. George Allen can rest better now.
I met Chris many years ago, while the Red Skins were playl ing the Cowboys. At that time my son was only 9 years old, and Chris was his man. We meet at the hotel, were they were staying, had his picture made with my son, who still has it, loss to the cowboys, but made a promise to my son, that the REd Skin would be in the Super Bowl, they were and won it. He made such a impression on my youns son, that he will never forget. Chris was a great peron on and off the field. So happy he made the team. My son coaching at The Villages in Floida and he shares his story about meeting Chris to all his players.
Hanburger was a good choice despite all his head-hunting, but Richter was borderline at best, especially already choosing the LB position in Hanburger.
By my formula for HOF worthy players(# of pro-bowls, 1st or 2nd team all-nfl seasons by the four major voting groups–UPI, AP, PFW @ NEA– and total # of 1st team All-NFL selections by the four majors), Richter only scores a 15(8/6/1); the formula excludes WR’s and RB’s.
I believe 6 PB’s, five 1st or 2nd team all nfl seasons(4 majors) and 10 total 1st team all-nfl selections(4 majors) is the median for what I think is a HOF’er, excluding WR’s and RB’s. So 21 would be right at my minimum score.
Here’s how some other high profile players would score that aren’t in the HOF, including newly elected Hanburger:
Chris Hanburger(9/6/8….23)
Mick Tingelhoff…6/7/20(33)
Alex Karras………4/9/9(22)
Robert Brazile…..7/6/10(23)
Chuck Howley…..6/6/12(24)
Jim Patton………..5/6/14(25)
Claude Humphrey 6/8/8(22)
Bobby Dillon………4/5/12(21)
Jerry Kramer……..3/6/12(21)
Randy Gradishar..7/6/5(18)
Maxie Baughan….9/7/4(20)
Jack Butler……….4/4/8(16)
Cliff Harris………..6/5/9(20)
Lemar Parrish……8/5/6(19)
Cornell Green…….5/4/7(16)
Ed Meador…………6/5/5(16)
The player I like the most that fell below 21 is Cliff Harris, while the players I am not especially impressed with above 21 are Karras(gambling), Humphrey(quit on team) and Dillon who played on very bad teams during his short tenure.
I would agree that Lebeau and Little were bad choices, especially Lebeau, who scored only a 6(3/3/0) by my formula.
My predictions for this years two nominees that are coming up next week would be, Chuck Howley and Jerry Kramer.
Does anybody know why Dick Stanfel isn’t in the HOF?
Yes, he had a short career but everyone of his seven seasons had a post-season honor of pro-bowl and/or 1st team all-nfl(4 majors), except for one season.
He was a standout on the Detroit Lions of 1952-54 that went to three consecutive NFL Title games, winning two NFL Championships.
From there, his last years with the Redskins produced more excellence earning him a current honor as one of the 70 Greatest Redskins and a place on the NFL All Decade Team of the 50’s when his career was over.
He has a career score(by my formula) of 5/5/13(23) and seems to match up very favorably with another current HOF, Bill Willis….especially considering Willis spent much of his career in the AAFC while Stanfel was a NFL player for his whole career.
However, Stanfel was already rejected once as a senior nominee, which I’m not sure why?
I’ve done some more scoring for HOF’ers and nominees at random, enjoy:
Gene Hickerson….6/7/11(24)
Rayfield Wright…..6/6/8(20)
Bob Brown…………6/9/17(32)
Dave Wilcox……….7/8/10(25)
Henry Jordan……..4/6/11(21)
Stan Jones…..7/6/6(19)
Dick Schafrath……6/4/6(16)
George Kunz………8/5/3(16)
LC Greenwood……6/2/5(13)
Cortez Kennedy….8/5/6(19)
Chris Doleman…8/5/7(20)
Richard Dent…4/4/2(10)
Dan Hampton..4/6/6(16)
Roger Brown…6/5/6(17)
Gene Brito…….5/5/10(20)
Howie Long…..8/5/8(21)
Mark Gastineau..5/5/8(18)
Rickey Jackson..6/6/3(15)
Andre Tippet…….5/4/5(14)
Joe Fortunato..5/4/8(17)
Dave Robinson..3/3/7(13)
Mike McCormack..6/9/1(16)
Bill Bergy…………..5/5/5(15)
Bob Kuechenberg..6/3/2(11)
Willie Davis……..5/6/14(25)
Dan Dierdorf…….6/6/11(23)
Lester Hayes……5/4/4(13)
Lem Barney……..7/5/8(20)
Roger Wehrli……7/6/10(23)
Mel Blount………5/6/6(17)
Mike Haynes…..9/8/8(25)
Emmitt Thomas..5/3/3(11)
Ken Houston…….12/12/8(32)
Paul Krause……..8/7/8(23)
Ronnie Lott………10/8/17(35)
Mel Renfro……….10/7/6(23)
Louis Wright…….5/5/7(17)
The scores are about right in line of the players in the HOF and the ones on the outside, including those that maybe shouldn’t be in the HOF that are.
Rayfield Wright would’ve scored higher than a 20 if not for an injury that cost him the 1977 season and affected his play the next few years. Dan Hampton had an injury prone career which cost him some honors in his career, but still a HOF to me despite the score of 16.
I’m shocked how low Mel Blount scored considering most would have him a top 5 corner all time and Lem Barney finished at 20(one off my minimum).
Also, I thought Lester Hayes would’ve scored higher than a 13. He was one of the best CB’s I saw play.
BTW, Ken Houston and Ronnie Lott are really good(LOL); a combined score of 67 between them! And can anyone explain how it took Mel Renfro until his last attempt of Modern eligibility to become a HOF(10 PB’s and played for the Dallas Cowboys; a score of 23)
There’s also examples where the HOF has maybe been a little too generous with their selections: Emmitt Thomas(11), Dick Lebeau(6), Richard Dent(10), Rickey Jackson(15), Andre Tippet(14) and Mike McCormack(16).
Mark Gastineau was one of the best players I’ve ever seen, though his career was somewhat derailed, he was on pace to be one of the greatest players in NFL History; 100 sacks in his first 100 games.
He had 11(1/2) sacks in 1980, (20) sacks in 1981, (6) sacks in the strike shortened 1982 season, (19) sacks in 1983, (22) sacks in 1984 and another 13(1/2) sacks in 1985.
I hope one day the HOF forgives some of his past faults and finds a place for him in the HOF, one of my all time favorite players when I grew up in the 80’s.