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Who is the best survivor pool pick in week 12?

  • Kansas City over Oakland (38%, 3 Votes)
  • Indianapolis over Jacksonville (25%, 2 Votes)
  • Philadelphia over Tennessee (25%, 2 Votes)
  • Green Bay over Minnesota (13%, 1 Votes)
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Total Voters: 8

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Pro Football HOF announces 15 modern era finalists for 2013

Four first-year nominees, including defensive linemen Warren Sapp and Michael Strahan and offensive linemen Jonathan Ogden and Larry Allen, are among 15 modern-era finalists for induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s class of 2013.

Three wide receivers, Cris Carter, Andre Reed and Tim Brown also are on the list.

Other offensive players in the running for induction are running back Jerome Bettis and offensive lineman Will Shields. Defensive players among the finalists include linebacker Kevin Greene, defensive end Charles Haley and cornerback Aeneas Williams.

The last three finalists are coach Bill Parcells and two owners, Edward DeBartolo and Art Modell.

The finalists were announced Friday morning on NFL Network.

The list of 15 modern-era finalists was culled from a list of 27 semifinalists that was announced in November. The 12 semifinalists who did not make the cut to 15 were: running backs Roger Craig and Terrell Davis; offensive lineman Joe Jacoby; linebacker Karl Mecklenburg; defensive backs Steve Atwater, Albert Lewis and John Lynch (another notable first-time candidate); kicker Morten Andersen; special teamer Steve Tasker; coach Don Coryell; former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue and former Giants General Manager George Young.

Notable among the finalists are the three wide receivers. Brown, Reed and Carter all are seen as legitimate candidates for the Hall, but to this point they seem to be siphoning votes from one another, with none of the three able to garner enough support to earn enshrinement.All three have plenty of eligibility left, but their candidacies in future years will be up against younger stars who played during the league’s heavier passing era, including Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt and Hines Ward.

The Hall of Fame selection process started in September, when the Hall unveiled an uncut list of 127 nominees. That list was cut to 27 semifinalists in November.

The voting committee will discuss the 15 finalists the weekend of the Super Bowl, first reducing the list to 10 and then to five. Those five will be discussed individually and will then receive an up or down vote.

The Hall’s bylaws call for enshrinement of at least four new members and no more than seven.

In addition to the 15 modern-era candidates, two senior nominees – Kansas City defensive lineman Curley Culp and Green Bay linebacker Dave Robinson – were announced in August. They advance right away to finalist status and will receive a yes or no vote at the same time as the modern era candidates.

Last year’s senior candidates were Jack Butler, who was enshrined, and Dick Stanfel, whose nomination was voted down by the selection committee. Butler was joined by fellow inductees Dermontti Dawson, Chris Doleman, Cortez Kennedy, Curtis Martin and Willie Roaf.

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162 Responses to Pro Football HOF announces 15 modern era finalists for 2013

  • chris says:

    my prediction:

    larry allen
    curley culp
    dave robinson
    andre reed
    warren sapp
    will shields
    and michael strahan

  • Dr Phil says:

    I’m not surprised by this list. We have the 10 returning finalists from last year, plus 4 first-timers and Art Modell who passed away this year. Given the quality of the first-timers this year it was very hard for anyone who was eligible last year, but didn’t make the finalists list, to make the final this year. 4 of the `open’ 5 slots were taken up by the first-timers and that left just 1 slot for everyone else who didn’t make the final last year.

  • Justin says:

    A surprisingly mundane list. My prediction is the following:

    1) Ogden (best left tackle of his generation, which is saying a lot)
    2) Parcells (he is officially not coming back, time to put him in)
    3) Carter (the most likely receiver candidate)
    4) Strahan (likely a tad overrated, but well liked by the writers)
    5) Allen (too good for too long)

    I realize this list bucks the current trend of balancing the offense / defense split, but the three first year candidates I picks (Ogden, Strahan, and Allen) were all recongnized as top 100 players of all time recently. It is also beyond time to solve the WR backlog. It is certainly possible that Williams or Haley could bump Parcells, but I believe the only thing keeping Parcells out is the threat of his return, which is looking very remote these days. As a Redskins fan, this list is not particularly attractive (1 Giant, 1 Cowboy, 1 Giant & Cowboy, and 1 Raven), but it would be a well-deserved class.

  • Morgan Wick says:

    I’ll probably take Justin’s list and swap Parcells and Carter for Reed (with the caveat that after what happened last year I could see the Reed voters flip to Carter if they decide the backlog’s not getting cleared with Reed going first) and Bettis. Other than Strahan, the most qualified defensive guys are probably Sapp and Haley, both of which played too similar positions; I don’t think Greene or Williams get in just to balance out the numbers, though I could be wrong, and Williams did finish in the final ten last year while Bettis and Greene didn’t (which actually has me seriously reconsidering my pick – I was going to ignore Bettis missing the final ten until now). I also see the voters penalizing Parcells for his Saints flirtation last offseason.

  • Paul says:

    As posted other other board my picks are
    LARRY ALLEN
    CURLEY CULP
    CHARLES HALEY
    BILL PARCELLS
    ANDRE REED
    DAVE ROBINSON
    MICHAEL STRAHAN

    And I agree with the assessment of the no surprises in the final 15 as I stated after the 2012 election that all ten from 2012 would return with the addition of the best 4 of the new 1st time 2013 players + one “wildcard” which turned out to be Modell. It simply makes it hard for other recent and new 25 semi-finalists to make the move into the final 15 with such strong support for the returning finalists and high quality of the four 1st time players. I think one of the deserving 1st time players will not get elected as three 1st players is rare and the quality of depth left over from the returning 10 finalists in 2012 will squeeze a 1st time player out (in my case I am suggesting Ogden). Reed/Carter is a toss up as hard to predict which group of voters will flip their support to get at least one WR elected. I do not think that the voters will continue to punish Parcells as his return to coaching with the Saints was a long shot speculation to begin with. And I think Haley has payed his time as a finalist with a steady move up the list and serious consideration (and post 2012 non-selection support) which I think will pay off this year combined with the recent movement to elect defensive players especially pass rushing specialists.

    But having followed these elections for years, there are always a surprise or two of those not elected and those elected.

  • Corey says:

    If either one, or both, Culp and Robinson go in, I will fail to understand how 80% of the voters could vote for them but fail to say yes to Dick Stanfel.

    I will say Larry Allen, Bill Parcells, Cris Carter, Will Shields and Michael Strahan will get in for the modern era. I say Shields because since Willie Roaf had to wait a year and now that Shields has, I see no reason why he should have to wait any longer.

    It’s a very tough process. I think Warren Sapp should go in and when looking at honors, these two are very similar.

    Sapp has two all decade teams, Strahan has one, both have 4/7 profiles, both have won a defensive player of the year award. Strahan has 141.5 sacks and the single season sack record but Sapp has 96.5 sacks, which is pretty good for a defensive tackle.

    Is it possible if only one gets in, even though both deserve it, that Strahan goes in because people outside of sports fans know who he is as opposed to Sapp not being as much of a celebrity and not as well known to non-sports fans?

  • Justin says:

    I’m really surprised by the lack of support for Ogden from these posts. He played a much more highly regarded position (left tackle) than either Shields (strickly a guard) or Allen (guard for all but one year). He has the same or better post-season profile as them at a position that also included Roaf, Walter Jones, and Orlando Pace for nearly his entire career. Most experts also seem to consider him better than Roaf, Jones, or Pace. In fact, he is described in The Blind Side as the prototypical left tackle that set the standard for the new highly valued (and compensated) skill position. He also would be the first player who played the majority of his career with the Baltimore Ravens in the hall of fame (and their first ever draft pick). From my perspective, I think he is this year’s only true lock for enshirement. Very interested why others feel differently.

  • Corey says:

    It’s so hard to tell because there are people like Allen, Ogden, Sapp and Strahan all first timers and there are only so few spots. I think all of four of them are worthy and I would not be objected to any one of them being elected on the first ballot. The problem is, it’s hard for players with their first time on the ballot to break the glass ceiling. Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ray Lewis, these people all will be first ballot Hall of Famers. Larry Allen, Jonathan Ogden, Warren Sapp and Michael Strahan are all deserving of a bust in Canton and I believe if somebody is a Hall of Famer, why wait? However, the chances of the four first timers all getting in this year is slim as opposed to the other four names I mentioned pretty much will get elected on the first try with no problem.

  • Paul says:

    The reason why some players wait (including clearly deserving 1st year players) is because there is only 5 slots per election. Each year among the 15 finalists are perhaps 10 or more deserving of election that given year so five are not going to get in (I believe HOF has noted previously that over 80% of players who appear on the 15 finalist list eventually do get elected).

    I think the careers of Odgen, Sheilds and Allen are so close that vote splitting is very possible, and also subjective factors may make a different such as Allen a member of two all decade teams and his SB (different subjective cases can also be made for Odgen and Sheilds). Plus there are several other players also deserving. The truth is that all three OL are getting elected but it will take a few elections to get them all in. A number of the greatest players in the history of the NFL have not been 1st time elections to the HOF. Personally I think the whole 1st time elections is very overrated and more a factor of the limited slots and respective quality of the pool of 15 finalists in a given year then any judgement of the deserving players, voters or election process.

    As DL players Strahans career and season sack numbers are going to push him in first from a direct competition with Sapp.

  • Rasputin says:

    Larry Allen made first team All Pro at left tackle too. He would have dominated and earned a trip to Canton at any position on the line. I think most contemporary players would say that Allen was the greatest offensive lineman of his era.

  • Justin says:

    Rasputin:

    I’m not sure players would pick Allen over Ogden. In fact, a number of current players had a chance along with the rest of the NFL network’s blue ribbon panel when they created the Top 100 players of all time in 2010. Larry Allen came in at number 95, but Jonathan Ogden was 72 (which was higher than HOFers Bruce Matthews and Art Shell). That’s actually a pretty big difference. Obviously, I think both players are worthy of induction as I placed them in my top 5. I’m just surprised by the consensus that Allen is more likely to be inducted than Ogden.

  • Rasputin says:

    I know, that “blue ribbon” panel was a joke. That was the group that somehow didn’t put a single Cowboy in the top 25. When I saw the panel’s makeup before the show started, a mix of respectable analysts like Pat Summeral with hacks like Peter King and Steve Sabol who have long histories of anti-Cowboys bias, I predicted that Dallas would have many players in the top 100 but that most or all of them would be ranked lower than they deserve, and that’s what happened. In my opinion the anti-Cowboys clique is why Larry Allen only ended up in the 90s, Troy Aikman and Tony Dorsett lower than Ozzie Newsome and Marion Motley(!), Randy White only in the 60s, Staubach way too low at 46, and Emmit Smith and Bob Lilly in the high 20s, with Lilly a full 13 spots behind Joe Greene. I loved watching Brett Favre play but is he really #20? 60 spots higher than Aikman and 26 higher than Roger Staubach?!?! The Cowboys weren’t the only ones to get screwed, though they got screwed almost across the board. Steve Young should have been higher and Sammy Baugh, my pick for #1, should have at least been top 10. Jerry Rice was great but he’s arguably not the best WR in history, much less the #1 all time player.

    That list is garbage. Getting back to the topic, I’ve heard numerous players say that Larry Allen was the best they played against over the years, but there hasn’t been a scientific survey or anything done, and the players aren’t the ones voting here. I’d personally rank him best all around because he was the most versatile and dominant O-lineman I’ve ever seen. Period.

  • Tony P says:

    Steve Atwater should be in already. IMO not a lot of dropoff between him and Lott. The Broncos went to a lot of SB’s. One positive is Atwater still has a pinkie. :) Opps sorry Billy. Not wanting to be rodundant:) I didn’t see you commented about Atwater. Ditto, great minds …….. :)

    Culp deserves to make it . As far as I know he was the first Nose Guard on Stram’s SB winning team. It was a big deal when he was was traded to the Oilers. I hope it opens the flood gates for a position that gets little recognition. Between Culp, HOFer Elvin Bethea and LB Robert Brazile the team’s success was instantly elevated by their terrorizing men.

    Unfortunately the Oilers were in the same division as the awesome Steelers and competitive Browns and Bengals. It was a very good division from the late 1970′s thru the early 80′s. So Houston had this formidable defense for a couple years but it wasn’t until 1978 when “Earl” came aboard and that caused Pittsburgh great heartburn. On a side note I still contend WR Mike Renfro caught the ball in the endzone and Luv You Blue would of been in the SB. They really did deserve a shot. It would of been Oilers vs Cowboys and this state would of gone nuts.

    Instant Replay would of changed a lot of history in the 1970′s. Denver wouldn’t go to it’s first SB in 1977 and, Oakland wouldn’t of won it’s 1976 SB because it would of lost in the first playoff round to Wild Card New England. Maybe the Vikings win one? They had a great year with Rookie FB Chuck Foreman. And dare I saw the “Immaculate Reception” didn’t happen. No camera angle, give me a break!!

    According to Bradshaw, his team up to that point was snake bit. The year before they lost to a much inferior Dolphins team. LMAO He believes that JUNK!! And where were they the next year when the inferior team went to their 3rd straight SB? Sitting at home after the first round. The year Bradshaw talks about Miami went to Pittsburgh in the freezing cold with it’s Perfect Record and the finess team promptly knocked him out of the game with a concussion. There was nothing finess about Nick Buonoconti, Jake Scott, Manny Fernandez, Csonka and the whole Offensive Line which included HOFers Larry Little and Jim Langer with Norm Evans, Bob Kuechenburg and Wayne Morris. IMO and pundits of the time that Dolphin OL was the finest ever assembled. The Dolphins had the first dual 1,000 yd rushers.

    So I think Culp makes it and I guess that leaves up to 5 more? Larry Allen is a no-brainer!! Kevin Greene was a wild man and was great at every stop but Haley might get in first because his teams won SB’s. Both absolutely deserve in especially with the like of Richard Dent being enshrined. I’d put both of their career’s ahead of his. I like Parcells because he’s done with football. Modell will enter after some time/bitterness passes. He should be in but know hurry now. :) Is this the year Carter makes it? It maybe a little cruel but I think Brown was better and IMO certianly tougher going over the middle all the time. I’d go with Brown or Reed as being the Art Monk vote. I believe all 3 will make it eventually. I don’t ever remember hearing a negative in or out of football about Brown. I’ll go with Brown. Lastly I wonder if the 49ers go to the SB will it sway the voters for DeBartolo?? I think Aeneas Williams was one of the greatest CBs ever. And he did most of it in obscurity with Arizona. He went to St.Louis at 33 yrs oldwith his 55 ints and instantly lifted their Defense. Too bad his team lost in the SB. I just don’t see how he can be left out one more year. He’s be my pick. If there was one more pick I think it would be Strahan.

    I have Senior – NG Curly Culp
    Regulars – CB Aneas Williams, G Larry Allen, DE Charles Haley, HC Bill Parcells, WR Tim Brown

    What do you think about them apples? I could start a pretty awesome team, huh?

  • Tony P says:

    Hypothetically I bet Parcells would get the most out of the sometimes controversial Haley like Jimmy Johnson did. Haley was just awesome as one of the “Boys”. He was the glue to the “D” IMO Those Cowboy teams of the 90′s were awesome on both sides of the ball. I’m not sure there’s been a team as complete in all aspects of the game since those teams? If they played their best you had no chance. :) Did I say I hate the Cowboys? LOL!!

  • Corey says:

    I would love it if Aeneas Williams got in. 3/8 and the 1990s All Decade Team is worthy to me. However, has he had to wait because he didn’t play on good teams in Arizona and the Rams lost Super Bowl 36? It seems like he was under the radar.

    I think it could go so many ways as to who gets in that it will be tough to make a prediction.

  • Paul says:

    Voters advanced both reed and carter into final 10 last year and not brown I see same this year with reed or carter finally taking next step and get elected as I do not see a sudden change by voters to now advance brown past both of them

  • Paul says:

    Williams could be a surprise wildcard selection this especially if there is some resistance to select either parcells or strahan

  • Boknows34 says:

    With Derrick Brooks looking like the only realistic 1st ballot candidate in 2014, I predict we’ll see at least 9 of these 15 elected in the next two Classes.

  • Paul says:

    I agree BoKnows34, which I suppose makes the 2013 election less critical given that the five in the final 10 not elected (plus consideration for a few from the 11-15 group in 2013) will certainly get elected in 2014. So it becomes more of an issue of the order of their election. Looking at past HOF elections the years with few or any strong first time players on the ballot have often allowed for “corrections” and getting well deserving but long delayed players elected. With the final 10 in 2013 you will be seeing both the 2013 and 2014 election pools, before the ballot gets filled again with many highly qualified candidates in 2015 and beyond

  • robert ewing says:

    Is it Possible that dave robinson might not get elected due to the fact that there are way too many packers in from that era just a thought

  • chris says:

    no i think dave robinson will get in he was a great linebacker in that era of great packer teams, and isn’t derrick brooks eliglible for 2015 i could be wrong but 2014 doesn’t seem right to me

  • Corey says:

    “Is it Possible that dave robinson might not get elected due to the fact that there are way too many packers in from that era just a thought”

    Absolutely it’s possible. Jerry Kramer, who is more deserving in my opinion, was senior nominee for the class of 1997 and he got turned down.

  • Paul says:

    Brooks last season was 2008 so he will eligible for the class of 2014 having been retired for the required five seasons 2009-2013

  • BSLO says:

    I agree that 2014 is a weak year, and makes this election a little less urgent. I think that pretty much anyone besides DeBartolo and Sapp has some sort of a shot at induction this year, and honestly the more I think about I don’t think anyone is a lock. I do think that Allen and Strahan not being inducted would be a surprise to me personally, but I could see the possibility of Allen getting bumped for Will Shields and Strahan having to wait due to some nonsense like the sack record being held against him. If either were to miss induction, they would be a lock for next year.

    Ogden will probably miss out due to a simple numbers game at OL. I think he’s likely to get eliminated in the cutdown to 10, but stands a decent chance at getting inducted in the next 2-3 years. It’ll be interesting if him and Walter Jones are on the 2015 ballot together…I don’t know who I would pick between those two. If Shields doesn’t gets inducted this year, he gets in next year. His credentials are just too good to make him wait more than 3 years.

    With the receivers, I really have no idea what will happen. I could see a slim chance that the voters push Brown to the final 10 just to see what would happen. Reed and Carter have been stuck at the final 10 for several years, dropping off occasionally at the cutdown, but never getting inducted…maybe they will want a fresh face to discuss. As long as one of them gets in this year, that works for me. I put the blame for this logjam on the voters for failing to induct Art Monk for so many years. He got in the year Carter was first eligible, and I firmly believe that if he wasn’t on the ballot, Carter gets in right away on a weak year, Reed gets in shortly after, and Brown only has to wait a year or 2. Now regardless of what happens this year, their standing on the ballot affects Harrison, Holt, Bruce, Ward, Owens, and eventually Randy Moss.

    Jerome Bettis is a total wildcard. He stands as the best bet to benefit from this receiver logjam, being the only other finalist at a skill position. I could see him getting inducted this year, or 5 years from now. With no other good RB’s coming until Tomlinson, there’s no rush to get him in.

    On D, as I mentioned I think Strahan is likely, and I think he gets joined by 1 other defensive player. Although Haley is the logical choice, I think Williams and Greene have just as good of a chance at getting inducted.

    I think Parcells gets in this year now that he’s pretty much a lock to never return to coaching. They haven’t inducted a coach in awhile and are due. Modell has an outside shot due to a sympathy vote, but in a very tough year, I think the Cleveland stuff will be too easy of a reason to vote him down again.

  • Paul says:

    BSLO I think your overall analysis is pretty good, although with only 10 spots in the next round I do not see voters advancing Brown along with both Reed and Carter. Adding Brown with Reed/and or Carter into the final 10 is no way to resolve the logjam at WR. My guess is that both get advanced and the voters (perhaps influenced by the best presentation) realize the need to support one and finally get one elected!

  • Boknows34 says:

    It’s worth noting there are now 46 members of the Select Committee with two very recent additions – Clark Judge of CBS Sports and Sal Paolontonio of ESPN. If Sal Pal’s book is any indication he’s a poor addition.

    With the 80% rule this means candidates require 37/46 votes instead of 36/44 for election.

  • BSLO says:

    Oops, I wasn’t real clear there when it came to the WR’s. I also don’t think that they would send 3 receivers to the final 10…I meant to say that they might send Brown on instead of Carter or Reed. :)

  • Paul says:

    I find it hard to believe that voters will simply flip 360 degrees, bypass Carter and Reed, to then consider Brown for possible election as they have already decided Brown is behind both Carter and Reed in the order of WRs under consideration, it is clear the voters have already selected Reed or Carter given that in 2012 they both reached the final 10. Given the mess the WR logjam has created and the negative public feedback, I think the voters understand they need to consolidate around either Carter and Reed and I believe with the presentations and discussions of the final 15 they will reach that conclusion.

  • chris says:

    yeah i just think one of those receivers will get in for 2013

  • BSLO says:

    I think it’s extremely unlikely as well that Brown gets inducted, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that the voters move Carter and Brown or Brown and Reed to the final 10 instead of Carter and Reed. In Carter’s 1st year of eligibility, he made the final 10, while Reed did not. After two years of them both in the final 10, only Reed made it two years ago and they were both once again in the final 10 last year. There has obviously been some changing of opinion over the past few years of which of those two is more worthy, so I don’t think it’s impossible that Brown enters the conversation more prominently since Carter vs. Reed is at a bit of a stalemate.

    This wouldn’t be without precedence, as there have been recent examples of the “order of induction” changing with pass rushers (Rickey Jackson and Chris Doleman leapfrogging Charles Haley) and guards (Russ Grimm leapfrogging Bob Kuechenberg). George Young has also had a particularly crazy roller coaster ride, going from being voted down at the final vote to being just a finalist, to just a semi-finalist, to right off the top 25 back to being a semi-finalist. If the Hall simply put in the best 1 or 2 1st-year candidates and the next couple guys in line from the final 10, there would be no point in having a voting process. There are always some unexpected results in the voting.

  • Paul says:

    Jackson and Doleman did not leapfrog Haley into the final 10 but advanced before him from final 15 to 10 and election. Haley made the final ten in 2012 for the first time. Grimm was a case of a new better player moving beyond a long standing but not elected finalist in Kuechenberg – neither case applies to the Brown, Reed and Carter situation since they have all been together in the final 15 for the last few years when voters have clearly had a number of chances to compare then and first move Carter then Reed into the final 10 leaving Brown 3rd and behind in11-15 slot. I think the same will happen this year with Carter and Reed advanced, but when it comes to advancing into the final 5 for election voting they will have collected enough votes to advance and then elect one of Carter or Reed – I do not think that a move to add Brown forward is in any way a better assured means to break open the logjam.

  • chris says:

    we will just have to wait and see on induction saturday on feb 2nd

  • BSLO says:

    I agree that this case isn’t the same as the others. It would be highly unlikely for Brown to jump both receivers, or even one at this point. Anyway since the announcement is only about 2 weeks away, here’s my final prediction with my take on the chances of each candidate getting inducted:

    Larry Allen: 100% – Inducted
    Michael Strahan: 90% – Inducted
    Bill Parcells: 65% – Inducted
    Cris Carter: 45% – Inducted
    Kevin Greene: 40% – Inducted

    Charles Haley – 40% (it’ll come down to him or Greene, this will be my prediction for an upset special)
    Andre Reed – 35%
    Aeneas Williams – 25%
    Will Shields – 20%
    Jerome Bettis – 15%
    Jonathan Ogden – 10%
    Art Modell – 10%
    Tim Brown – 5%
    Ed DeBartolo Jr. – 0%
    Warren Sapp – 0%

  • Paul says:

    In 2012 both Greene and Haley were in the final 15 (2 time for Greene, 4th for Haley), yet only Haley moved into the final 10 (and for the first time). His non-election got plenty of media and public attention. So why after only one year would Greene jump ahead of him not only in final 10, where spaces are tight, but for actual election. After only one year what would have changed in the voters minds to swap that order? I think Haley is much closer to election then Greene.

    I think the surprises may come with which OL gets elected (not Allen!, soes Shield slide in as next in order????), which DL (Strahan is not a 1st time selection!), and which WR (does Reed who has been on the ballot longer get in first, or is Carter now ahead!!) and does Parcells NOT GET ELECTED!!!!!

  • BSLO says:

    I’m sure I’ve said this before, but the reason I’m not sold on Haley is that he seems to have had an extremely slow climb up the ladder, suggesting that he has some level of resistance with the voters. He reminds me of Richard Dent who immediately was in the conversation, but was repeatedly passed over for similar front seven players who took awhile to get their candidacy established like Fred Dean, Andre Tippett and Rickey Jackson. Eventually he got inducted, but it was a long road.

    Haley has been at least a semi-finalist since he’s been eligible, but it took him a very long time to become a finalist. I know that Greene is in the same boat, as he is only in his 2nd year as a finalist and they became eligible the same year, but personally I think it comes down to who would the voters would side with if they both make the final 10. Neither player has a “he’s waited longer” advantage as both players retired in 1999. I think one spot will come down to these two, and if I’m picking one or the other, I’d pick Greene. Greene had a long, consistently great career, where he notched the 3rd most sacks of all-time and made an All-Decade team. Haley’s entire case is based on his 5 Super Bowl rings. He was better than Greene at his peak, but he was very inconsistent year-to-year. Haley has had people pining for his induction since he became eligible thanks to these 5 rings he has…I didn’t see anything last year that suggested he was getting more press than usual. I think whoever misses out this year (or maybe they both make it in and Strahan doesn’t) gets in next year for sure.

    Larry Allen is the best guard since John Hannah. As a Chiefs fan, it pains to me to say it, but he was much more dominant than Shields, who I have no problem waiting another year since Randall McDaniel waited 3 years. There are very few players I’ve seen play that are more deserving of a 1st-time induction. Strahan is not on Allen’s level, but he was the premier player at his position for several years. He’s not a total lock for induction and has some weaker spots on his resume, but Greene and Haley don’t have nearly the same overall credentials. I don’t think either player deserves to leapfrog him no matter how long they’ve had to wait.

    Receiver could go either way between Reed and Carter, as neither player has much momentum right now. One of them will get inducted though, because that logjam has received easily the most media attention over the past couple of years. the voters must be feeling the pressure now.

  • Paul says:

    Haley was first eligible for the class of 2005 but did not make the final 15 list until 2010, a five year wait which I do not believe is really that long or uncommon for many quality players including those eventually elected. I agree that he has been delayed as other pass rushing DL and LBs with more career sacks and awards passed him for election. I saw some national and dallas press attention after he was not elected (including surprise and support from writers and voters) which leads me to believe he is getting closer. It is not just that he has 5 SBs but that he was a key figure on all those teams, a player opposing teams had to game plan and account for.

    I do believe Allen will get elected and deserves to, but if are thinking about surprises there certainly is a history of some voters not electing OL and DL (such as Strahan) in as 1st year players. It will take 37 votes to get elected which means only 10 NO votes at the final 10 or even the 5 stage to keep someone out. If I had to guess at a surprise it would that Strahan does not get in, with perhaps Williams taking his place.

  • Brad says:

    Morten Anderson will get inducted in _______years

  • Corey says:

    I don’t see why it shouldn’t have been this year, but I can see him waiting a while. It would not surprise me if he had to become a Senior candidate to get elected.

  • Robert Ewing says:

    I think its because some of the voters don’t like special team players on another note who are the top senior nominees for 2014

  • Paul says:

    Anderson in 10 years, voters do not favor kickers over regular players and there are so many deserving players on the ballot now and coming on in future years that he will continue to get pushed back

  • chris says:

    top senior canidates for 2014 jerry kramer and chuck howley

  • Corey says:

    Both Howley and Kramer are worthy but to me, Johnny Robinson and Al Wistert should be first.

  • Rasputin says:

    Chuck Howley should be the #1 senior priority.

  • Paul says:

    With Culp and Robinson nominated for 2013 (which I would suggest was a surprise to almost all HOF followers) there is simply no way to tell who will be selected from the list of 20 or so senior candidates considered the last few years, it could any of them a pure crapshoot, whereas I am guessing that all of us could get right 3 or more of the five modern candidates elected two weeks from now and could have done so as soon as the 25 semifinalists were announced perhaps even from the 100+ preliminary nominees.

  • Paul says:

    From lists posted here previously here are the remaining senior candidates who were considered for 2012 and 2013. Although it always possible a new name (including newly eligible senior player) may appear for 2014, it is likely the two 2014 senior nominees will come from this list. Who you say? Could be anyone’s guess as the senior nominees are much harder to predict then the modern player elections.

    Recent Pro Football HOF Senior Candidates considered by the Seniors Committee

    RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    G – Bob Kuechenberg 2/6/70s 80s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    C – Mick Tingelhoff 5/6/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s (finalist 2012)
    QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s/80s (finalist 2012)
    WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s/80s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    RDT – Roger Brown 2/6/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    LDE – L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s (finalist 2013)
    DE – Claude Humphrey 5/6/1970s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    DT – Alex Karras 0/4 60s (finalist 2012)
    RLB – Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s (finalist 2012)
    MLB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012)
    LLB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    LB- Mike Curtis 2/4/60s-70s (finalist 2012, 2013)**
    CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    CB – Lester Hayes 1/5/70s 80s (finalist 2012)
    S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
    P – Ray Guy 6/7/70s 80s (finalist 2012, 2013)

  • Rasputin says:

    To clarify, by “should” I’m not making a prediction, but stating what I want to happen based on my opinion that Howley is the most deserving senior era candidate not already in.

  • Boknows34 says:

    With Baltimore Ravens in the Super Bowl I do wonder if Art Modell might now be this year’s outsider to gain election. Jon Ogden and Modell elected the day before a Ravens Super Bowl? Hmmm!! That might sway some voters.

  • Corey says:

    The same thing could be asked about Charles Haley and DeBartolo.

  • Tony P says:

    As a Dolphins (Texans ) fantoo, I’m happy whenever the Patriots eat a dish of humble pie. It seems to happen so rarely over the 2000′s although it’s getting BETTER. LOL

    The Super Bowl should a hardnosed very competitive low scoring game unless this Colin kid can do his magic on them.. I really don’t have a dog in the hunt (like usual this time of the year) but I’m leaning towards the Ravens. I tend to be an AFC guy. But I could careless about Ray Lewis. It’s impossible to ignore his greatness but i’ve never been a fan of him or his team. I could say the exact same about the 49ers. Still it should be a good game down to the wire. Maybe I will root for the “Kid”. I also like Justin Smith’s game and character. Actually most of the team is humble and likeable. Damn I just switched my rooting interest within a paragraph. :) I bet T-sizzle has enough to say for both teams.LOL

    About the HOF I’m sure many heard Jim Harbough say Frank Gore should be in there one day. I admire him greatly for his toughness and he’s one of the better franchise backs of his day but IMO with so many other great backs he;s not all that close to being a HOFer. The stout 5’9″ RB reminds me of another hardnosed, no nonsense (same stature) runner for the Browns in the 1980′s named Earnest Byner. And their stats are very much alike too.

  • Tony P says:

    What about Alex Karras who just passed?

  • Paul says:

    In my view there are many other more deserving senior candidates than Karras
    And I do not believe that the Super Bowl teams have any influence over the HOF voting.

  • Paul says:

    As to Modell there will enough HOF voters who will hold the move of the Browns against him to hold back his election at least for this year

  • Corey says:

    Do you think Rickey Jackson would still have been elected in 2010 if it was the Vikings in the Super Bowl instead of the Saints?

  • Tony P says:

    I think so. I think their was good effort supporting his selection from Saints Nation.. I personally don’t believe Jackson deserves to be in MORE than the sensational Robert Brazile whose still unappreciated by the voters IMO . That said both are borderline picks IMO much like Fred Dean was. I’m sure Jackson’s SB with the 49ers helped get him over the top.

  • Paul says:

    I think Rickey Jackson benefited from a self over correction by the HOF voters to increase defensive players, and especially pass rushers, into the HOF that started in 2008 and will continue with the 2013 election.

    What also happens with many of this “surprise” elections that some outsiders question is a factor none of us know about: that is the quality and passion of the presentations of the finalists in the room and the subsequent debates. In my view a strong presentation, with multiple supporting voters, can often push these players into election whereas the opposite can hurt and delay weaker cases made by presenters and voters regarding other players. Since these are private, and very rarely do any details on these presentations and debates come out to the public, we never know what important role they can play for election or non-election.

  • Brad says:

    Joe Flacco is a one win away from putting himself in conversation for Hall of Fame in the future. He has started in 80 straight games; has yet to miss a game. In those 80 starts he is 54-26. His season by season TD-Int: 14-12, 21-12, 25-10, 20-12, 22-10. That is a total of 102-56 for a career. He just turned 28 on the 16th of January. He has at least another 5-6 years in him.

  • Corey says:

    I have never seen Joe Flacco as a Hall of Fame quarterback. He is a pretty good quarterback but like Roethlisberger and Eli, there’s something about him who, despite a championship, or in the case of the two former quarterbacks, championships, it doesn’t seem like it’s enough.

    I think Philip Rivers is a much better choice for the Hall of Fame at this point than Flacco is. However, I can see Rivers being the modern day Ken Anderson. Deserving, but it may take a while.

  • Tony P says:

    No doubt in my mind that Rivers has been a heck of a lot better than Flacco in his first 5 years. Flacco might make a legacy for himself in the post season much like Jim Plunkett . But Flacco is barely an average QB in the Regular season and for his early years he’s rode the Defense’s coat tails into the playoffs. I don’t think a QB can be a HOFer without being at least consistantly good.

    Flacco has 3 of the lowest QBR scores since it’s inception in 2008 and of the 0-100 scale he has 7 games below 10. And among the best seasons his best in 2010 is only good enough to rank 63 behind the likes of Matt Cassel, Jake Delhomme, Matt Hasselback and David Garrard. Were talking Delhomme and Hasselback of the last 4 year. Certianly not world beaters. LOL Heck the top rookies this year all top 63.

    IMO if Plunkett as clutch as he was can’t get in with 2 SB wins than Flacco has a looonnng way to go. Not impossible but he’ll have to step it up during the season a lot.

    I seriously doubt the Ravens make it to another SB while he’s there. It took the Great Ray Lewis and Ed Reed 11 years to get back to one. Can’t under estimate their influence on the D’s consistancy which usually never happens especially on Defense. All franchises even the very best hit a dry patch when certian leaders leave whether it be the greatest: Cowboys, Redskins, Steelers, 49ers, Packers or yes one day soon the Patriots. :)

    So it will be interesting to see what kind of success Flacco can have if there’s a significant dropoff in their Defense. Can Ozzy keep deal his team Aces? Can Flacco carry a team like other HOFers Marino, Brady or Manning?

    Back to Rivers, I don’t think he gets in unless he picks up his game for 3 or 4 years and the TEAM has some major success. Atleast a SB appearance or a couple more Championship game appearances.

    Corey, all do respect, are you kidding me about Big Ben? LOL I see your point on Eli. He’s right on the edge with Kurt Warner IMO. I have strong quibble if all three make it someday. Eli is no Peyton but Peyton is no Eli when it comes to the big game.

  • Tony P says:

    sorry I meant to say I have NO quibble if all three QB’s get into HOF one day. :)

  • Paul says:

    I agree with Tony at this stage of their careers both Flacco and Rivers are going to need several more years of success with all pro, pro bowl, playoffs and SBs and/or huge career numbers to be considered for the HOF as neither is close in any way currently. Flacco has more time and appears to be on an upward path in his career but even winning the SB he has no all pro or pro bowl selections so he has work to do and for Rivers he appears to be on the tale end of his career and would need a major change of direction (new team?) for a post 30 career reboot as it currently stands he is not getting in the HOF ever. I think both Eli and Ben are marginal HOF as it stands right now but a few more high quality years (even without any additional SBs) should move then into consideration for the HOF.

  • Brad says:

    I take back what I said, he isn’t outstanding stats wise, but he puts up points and doesn’t turn the ball over a whole lot via interceptions. My point is, Joe Flacco is far from a Trent Dilfer or a Brad Johnson.

  • Paul says:

    I agree Brad, but still would see him -even with a SB win – some ways from serious consideration for the HOF (look at how hard it has been for Phil Simms to get any consideration and he had one of the most impressive SB statistical performances). I even think Kurt Warner is going to face a long and difficult path into the HOF and he was a two time MVP.

  • Brad says:

    Kurt should be in within his first 6-8 ballots. He was undrafted, was in invited to the Packers training camp in 1994, got released prior to the regular season. Then he bagged groceries and stocked selves. Then played in the Arena league for Iowa Barnstormers from 1995-1997, there he was very successful and went on to play for the Amsterdam Admirals in 1998. He also had success there and then took two teams to the Super Bowl, while throwing for at least 100 for both(1 of 2 in NFL history to do so, Fran Tarkenton is the other) , winning one; he was named MVP of one; two time league MVP. He has the three highest passing yards in a single Super Bowl game. He is the fastest player to 10,000 and 30,000 passing yards. 3 career perfect QB rating games, most ever. Most passing yards in a single postseason: 3 games-1,063 yards. He has the highest rate of games with 300+ yards passing (min. 100 games played) – 41.9% and many others.

  • Paul says:

    I agree that Kurt deserves election and will get in the HOF, just that it is going to an interesting path, one of the most intriguing cases to come before the committee in quite some time. His 12 year year has a great 3 years at the beginning, followed by 5 dead years when most saw his career ending, then 3 great years to end his career including another SB appearance (and almost win). Should make for heated debates and discussions around whether six years of very quality play and six years of basically no production makes a HOF career. As I said should make for an interesting election case.

  • robert ewing says:

    is it possible that ogden and sapp might have to wait a year for election since they are up against allen and strahan

    and paul if we ever had a disagreement I apologize

  • Boknows34 says:

    The Class of 2018 is potentially gearing up to be another historic year.

    Ray Lewis – retires after the Super Bowl.
    Tony Gonzalez – 95% certain. I’d say it’s 99%.
    Ed Reed – I think he’ll retire with a Ravens win.
    Randy Moss – I think he’ll retire with a 49ers win.
    Charles Woodson?
    Steve Hutchinson?
    Ronde Barber?

    Anybody else I’m missing?

  • robert ewing says:

    that does look loaded for 2018 one thing im wondering will reed brown and carter be on the ballot in 2018

  • Paul says:

    Yes both Ogden and Sapp will have to wait until 2014 or 2015, for class of 2018 Lewis and Gonzalez are the best bets, hard to say with E Reed given the poor consideration typically given to the Safety position. I am thinking A Reed and Carter will be elected starting 2013 and 2014, hard to say with Brown once Harrison joins the ballot in 2014. And Robert nothing to apologize for as we can agree to disagree and have different opinions with no one being offended, and I certainly am not.

  • BSLO says:

    Joe Flacco has had a nice playoffs once again, but I have just never seen him as anything other than a slightly above average QB. He’s getting a lot of wins, which will count for something, but until he makes a Pro Bowl or 2, it doesn’t matter whether he wins a championship or 2. The AFC has been loaded with good QB’s since he came into the league, but he hasn’t even had a borderline Pro Bowl-caliber season yet. I agree he’s better than Dilfer, but don’t sell Brad Johnson too short. He sucked at the end of his career, but if you examine his whole body of work, he is in my opinion one of the top 10 eligible modern-era QB’s in next year’s election. (In case you’re wondering, the others would be in no particular order Simms, Esiason, Gannon, Cunningham, Bledsoe, McNair, Everett, Krieg, and Trent Green)

    Out of the QB’s that started playing between the mid-90′s and the mid-00′s, I think we’re looking at around 5-7 Hall of Fame spots. three of those are definitely going to Peyton, Brady and Brees, and Rodgers is well on his way to grabbing another one, but beyond that it’ll make for a great debate because you’re looking at several QB’s with resumes that can’t be compared to any current Hall of Fame members:

    Donovan McNabb – Every eligible QB that has made 5 or more Pro Bowls in the NFL is in the Hall, but I think this is where they may draw the line. Despite his 6 Pro Bowls and 98 regular season wins (and of course…one tie), McNabb never threw for over 4,000 yards in a passing era, had below-average accuracy and was never named a 1st or 2nd team All-Pro. I think he’ll get early consideration, but probably gets stuck for year at the finalist or semi-finalist stage.

    Kurt Warner – He has easily the most interesting Hall of Fame case of any QB. I won’t rehash what’s already been said, but there are almost no QB’s that have a peak as high as his, and no QB can match the roller coaster career or the great underdog/comeback story that he has. He’ll probably be a borderline semifinalist right away, but it’ll take a weaker year for him to get inducted. He’ll probably make for the most heated debate among voters in the upcoming years.

    Eli/Big Ben – These two have had extremely similar careers having won 2 Super Bowls apiece, while rarely being dominant QB’s. You can probably pencil each of them in for another Pro Bowl or 2, but ultimately they will likely both retire with weak (by HOF standards) post-season award profiles, and solid counting stats to go with their Super Bowl wins. I personally like Eli’s chances better thanks to his two Super Bowl MVP awards, and he seems like a better bet to put up solid passing numbers going forward. Terry Bradshaw made the HOF with only 3 Pro Bowl nods, but with 4 Super Bowls to his name, he’s in another class right now. These two will probably eventually get inducted, but they would both be setting new (perhaps lower) HOF standards for QB’s if inducted.

    Phillip Rivers – Sorry, but I don’t think he has a prayer. He’s clearly not the QB he was, is not on pace to have elite counting stats for his era and is stuck on a team that’s about to rebuild. You can never say never about a late-career surge, especially if he winds up on a different team soon, but he doesn’t look like a good candidate for that to happen.

    Ultimately, parity has made this era an unusual one. Unlike the late 80′s/early 90′s, every very elite QB has won a Super Bowl (Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers), and many other very good-great QB’s have won Super Bowls (Warner, Eli, Big Ben). This is where I think players like McNabb and especially Rivers unfortunately don’t have a shot. Not every era is going to see 9 QB’s inducted, so it’ll be interesting to see how many QB’s the voters push through.

  • Paul says:

    As to the current list of top 10 QBs on the modern list (Simms, Esiason, Gannon, Cunningham, Bledsoe, McNair, Everett, Krieg, Trent Green, Brad Johnson) only Simms has a chance and he will most likely first fall into the seniors pool before any future election is possible.

    From the mid 1990s/2000s era the most QBs that will be elected will be seven (Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Warner, Eli, and Ben), that number may not be reached or take numerous elections to do so. The number is very comparable to the number of QBs from a decade long era in the past. For 2010 and beyond only time and the remaining seven years will tell the tale.

  • Brad says:

    FInal 10 prediction: Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Charles Haley, Jonathan Ogden, Bill Parcells, Andre Reed, Warren Sapp, Will Shields, Michael Strahan and Aeneas Williams.

  • Rasputin says:

    People usually mention Philip Rivers in these discussions but not Tony Romo for some reason, even though Romo has slightly better stats than Rivers in most categories and has played significantly better than him over the last couple of years. He’d almost certainly have to win a Super Bowl to get in, but if he DOES win a title at some point, the combination of that credibility with some of the best career stats in NFL history, particularly in passer rating, completion percentage, yards/game (around 275 y/g as a starter), and yards/attempt, would make it easy to build a strong HoF case for him.

  • Paul says:

    Brad what about Larry Allen?

  • Rasputin says:

    Cowboys fans have learned over the years to take nothing for granted when it comes to the Canton selection process, but surely Larry Allen makes it. If he’s not a first ballot worthy offensive lineman then I’ve never seen one.

  • Paul says:

    there is no way Allen does not make final 10 NO WAY

  • Brad says:

    I’m sorry, I meant to take away Cris Carter and put Larry Allen.

  • Brad says:

    Larry Allen is definitely worthy of first ballot honors.

  • Paul says:

    once adding Allen to your list I would remove Sapp and keep Carter in

  • robert ewing says:

    wouldn’t it be fitting if sapp and brooks went in together in 2014

  • BSLO says:

    I would agree 100% on the final 10 with Paul. Carter, Reed, Ogden, Allen, Shields, Strahan, Haley, Green, Williams and Parcells. After that, it’s up in the air.

    I agree that Romo is pretty well even with Rivers. Both are solid QB’s on teams that have consistently failed to live up to expectations (moreso Rivers than Romo). I would put Romo slightly behind Rivers simply because he hasn’t won much in the playoffs. I could see Romo being effective for a few more years than Rivers, so perhaps he pulls ahead by the time they both retire.

    I don’t think that Phil Simms belongs in the Hall of Fame…2 Pro Bowls and a Super Bowl win (and MVP) don’t make up for a largely inconsistent career that overlapped with several hall of fame QB’s. Even though he played on a lot of bad teams, I would put Boomer Esiason squarely in the lead among currently eligible modern-era QB’s, followed by Randall Cunningham and then a close race for third between Simms, Bledsoe and Gannon. I don’t think any of these guys will get a sniff before they hit the senior committee, and until at least Ken Anderson and probably Ken Stabler get inducted.

  • Billy says:

    Matt Birk might be retiring at the end of this year as well as Jeff Saturday. I also would not be shocked to see Champ Bailey retire. Torrey Smith thinks he already did!

  • chris says:

    soon the inductees will be announced on feb 2nd

  • robert ewing says:
  • Rasputin says:

    I think the article makes some apples and oranges era comparison mistakes, like in trying to use Griese to leverage Simms into the HoF. Griese’s stats were generally better for his time than Simms’ were for his, which might be why Griese went to 8 Pro Bowls while Simms went to 2. It’s telling that Griese had a higher career completion percentage than Simms, despite the former playing in a less stat inflated era. While it’s true that Simms had a slighter higher career passer rating, Griese posted higher year to year rankings in the metric, finishing 2nd in 1971 and leading the league in passer rating in 1977. Simms finished 3rd in 1987 and lower every other year. Griese led the league in completion percentage in 1978 and touchdowns in 1977. Simms never led the NFL in any of those categories. I don’t think the two are light years apart statistically, but if they’re both roughly borderline it’s reasonable to see enough of a gap to justify inducting Griese but not Simms. Griese did have to wait several years.

    I do think Ken Stabler and Ken Anderson should be in though.

  • BSLO says:

    Thanks for passing this along robert ewing, it’s actually a pretty good list. I agree with most of the top 10, but there are definitely some gripes:

    1) John Brodie at #2 – I think he might belong around 10th…I’ve never understood the hype around him personally. He played a long time which accounts for his great counting stats, but realistically if he was a great player that just got stuck on bad teams, how come he never made more than 2 Pro Bowls in 17 years. There were usually 4-5 QB’s out of 16-18 teams that made it, so that means he was rarely even considered to be in the top 1/3rd or 1/4th of the league.

    2) Bernie Kosar in the top 10 – I think he belongs closer to 20-25 tops.

    3) No Rich Gannon – I am pretty sure he was eligible when they made this list in 2009, but I could be wrong. If they think Steve DeBerg, Steve Grogan and Archie Manning had better careers, then I’m not sure what to say.

    4) Daryle Lamonica and Charlie Conerly being outside the top 10 – I have said it before in a long debate I had with another poster on here, but Lamonica was WAY better than Jack Kemp, and in my opinion is in the conversation with John Hadl as the best AFL QB not in the Hall. Conerly has been a finalist for the HOF multiple times, and in my opinion is the best QB from the pre-AFL era not in the Hall by a wide margin.

    5) Dave Krieg at 23 – He should really be at least top 15 or top 20.

    6) Steve DeBerg, Steve Grogan and Archie Manning being given any consideration – Steve DeBerg is mostly famous for losing his starting job to 2 HOF QB’s (Montana and Elway, not to mention Vinny Testaverde). He had only 2 good full seasons as a starting QB over a 15+ year career, and in 1992 following his best 2 years of his career, he was let go for Dave Krieg who somehow was below him on this list. His winning % is brutal, and he threw more picks than TD’s in an era where this was no longer common…why is he even in the top 50?

    Grogan actually had a better career than his numbers indicate and should have made the Pro Bowl a couple of times, but nonetheless, like DeBerg, no Pro Bowls and no championships means you shouldn’t be in the conversation. Archie Manning made two Pro Bowls and was definitely brought down by playing on several pathetic teams, but his numbers are so bad that he can’t possibly be considered in the conversation.

    This list was made before guys like Drew Bledsoe and Steve McNair were eligible for the Hall. If they were eligible, they’d be close to the top 10.

  • Tony P says:

    To me the best choices would be John Brodie and Kenny”Snake’ Stabler.

    I love John Brodie!! He’s a super nice guy and was a very good golfer on the Senior tour. Haha! He was a fine QB on one of the worst teams and his career spanned over a period when these HOFers starred in the League: Bart Star, Johnny Unitas, Norm Van Brocklin, YA Title, Sonny Jurgenson, Fran Tarkington and a young Roger Staubach. Roger the “Dodger” absolutely stole a WildCard game from the 49ers in 1972 which was John’s last harrah. He was 37 years old and definetly on his last leg. He was tough and a man’s man. I think that’s why he was so popular back than. He became a well known TV football anaylist too. Very congenial much like Merlin Olsen. Any way Staubach was truly “Captain Comeback” in that game winning it 30-28. Other very good Pro Bowl QB’s were Don Meredith, Frank Ryan, Earl Morrall, and Roman Gabriel. I don’t know? It was admirable how he led his 49ers to a couple NFC Championship games in a row. He lost 3 straight in the playoffs to the Cowboys.. I think John would of gotten in if the standard had not been set so high. Say if he played in the 1970′s he may be better regarded. :) I don’t think hardly any of those players played on truly a bad team like Brodie. Year in and year out they had one of the worst Defenses in the League (from 1963-69 in the bottom 1/3 of 14 teams) until finally in 1971 and 72 they were pretty good. By than he when he was an old man. :)

    I sort of agree with Stabler but it’s so hard to look past his “13 td 28 int” year with the Oilers. That was a God awful to watch.That said there was a saving grace on the team named Earl Campbell. The Oilers on Earl’s back (and 1,934 yds) made it to the WildCard game were they were crushed by the Raiders, how ironic. Just think if the Oilers had a QB and not a 35 year old has been? By than his arm was shot, just a limp noodle. Too many bombs to Branch I guess along with 12 ounce curls instead of real weight. Pretty safe to say his offseason training was lacking. LMAO!!!!

    So do you think 4 or 5 great years and a SB win are enough to get in? Probably not today but what the hell, give it to him. LOL He was damn entertaining when he was on!! Except for the “Sea of Arms” play I pretty muched liked him. In that game an 11 year old nearly had a heart attack from excitement. :) I was running all over the house screaming. I just thought for sure Miami would go to their 4th Super Bowl in a row. But too many injuries and turmoil caught up with them despite a spirited effort. It was one of the best games of the 1970′s. Funny how Miami was in a lot of those and all were loses except the MNF win over the undefeated Bears.

    Anderson threw a beautiful ball tohis favorite WR Issac Curtis. His great years were at the end of his career. Much like Stabler in the number of good years but his team lost in the SB. I saw him alot in the mid-70′s vs. the Oilers and he was just a little above average and his team lost a lot of games. He’s a NO so all things being equal should Stabler be in because he won a Super Bowl?

    Another name I’d like for consideration was Jim Hart of St. Louis. The “Cardiac Cards”of Don Coryell were fun to watch. Hart was bombs away!!

  • Paul says:

    And the HOF is in the midst of one of the longest drought for years – 7 elections including 2013- without electing a QB (last were Aikman and Moon in 2006) , which means that unless the Senior Committee makes a QB selection for 2014 it appears that that streak may continue until Favre in 2016 (or if Warner gets elected in his first year on the ballot in 2015 which I would deem unlikely)

  • BSLO says:

    I agree, I don’t think that any QB’s will get inducted until Favre is eligible. Part of the issue with this drought is the lack of great QB’s that entered the NFL from 1988-1997. Out of the QB’s taken in the 1st round over that 10-year period, only Troy Aikman (who retired early thanks to injuries), Drew Bledsoe and Steve McNair could state that their teams got their money’s worth with them. Kerry Collins wound up having a pretty decent career after he left Carolina and Jeff George had a solid, but not spectacular career, but I wouldn’t say that either lived up to their high draft positions.

    The later rounds featured a few guys who went on to be pretty good QB’s like Mark Brunell, Trent Green, Brad Johnson and Chris Chandler and Jake Plummer, but none would be mistaken for an elite QB. Only Favre really came out of the later rounds. Outside of Jon Kitna, no decent undrafted free agents came out of this time period either.

    We’re seeing something similar happening right now with DE’s as well, as the 1990′s was a brutal decade for producing Hall of Famers at the position. Michael Strahan and Jason Taylor are the only ones that even deserve any consideration, with Simeon Rice being the next best player to be drafted in the 1990′s. I don’t see this as too big of a problem though, because it has allowed the voters to clear the pass rusher backlog quite a bit.

  • Rasputin says:

    If only they’d properly address the safety backlog….

  • Tony P says:

    Jason Taylor was a pass rushing stud in his day. Zach Thomas was a tackling machine with a 7 PB and 5 AP profile. Do you see either having a problem??

  • Tony P says:

    BLSO said

    “Kurt Warner – He has easily the most interesting Hall of Fame case of any QB. I won’t rehash what’s already been said, but there are almost no QB’s that have a peak as high as his, and no QB can match the roller coaster career or the great underdog/comeback story that he has. He’ll probably be a borderline semifinalist right away, but it’ll take a weaker year for him to get inducted. He’ll probably make for the most heated debate among voters in the upcoming years.”

    I liked your entire analysis very much of all the players. I was wondering if you think Warner could be the Plunkett of his generation? Could we say Plunkett’s early years in New England were his grocery bagging years? And than he came out of no where for the SB win. Than he was benched for Pastorina only to comeback and win another SB. Than he was benched again this time for Marc Wilson only to take team over with success to end up in a heartbreaking loss when they were faorite to go to SB again. I think that was 1985 when Marcus was at the top. Raiders vs Bears would of been better IMO than Patriots vs Bears. Easy to say in hindsight. :) Would you agree that Plunkett had an up and down career too although maybe not as well defined? He’s the only one I can think of with a roller-coaster career but his was within seasons. Maybe Earl Morrall? YA Title? I would need to research.

  • Andy says:

    The case for Plunkett begins and ends with the two Super Bowls. Yes, he rebounded and had a decent second career. But the problem for him is that even in his absolute best years he was never considered anywhere even close to the best quarterback in the game.

    He was not the starting qb at the beginning of the 1980 season when he took over for Pastorini and led them to the Super Bowl. He was never a Pro Bowler. He was never All Pro. And his season numbers in all but a couple seasons are decidedly average, at best.

    I think Plunkett is a good story and a great reclamation project, but I do not believe there is any case for the HOF.

  • Corey says:

    I second that notion for Plunkett. I don’t think Stabler should be in. If any Raiders quarterback should be in, give me Lamonica.

  • Paul says:

    Taylor and Thomas will both get in, but expect several years each as very possible.

    And I do not see any of those three Raider QBs making the HOF even via seniors route, just too many other better players in there and more so in future.

  • robert ewing says:

    I concur with you paul about none of the raiders qbs making the hof there are way too many better deserving players

  • Tony P says:

    I don’t see Lamonica ever making it and he shouldn’t. I love the bomb though. Paul seems to have it right.

    For someone so clearly not a good choice Plunkett sure seems to have a lot of support. I support him with my heart not my head. Only a couple like that for me, Super Duper and Mark Clayton. They can’t help it they played together and were equally GREAT 5’9″ players. How many players that size consistently beat their man for the underthrown ball. Everyone is looking for that big WR now days to get those type throws. How can a HOF passer like Dan Marino not have a WR in the HOF? I suppose it’s not that uncommon but still. :)

  • robert ewing says:

    Am I Crazy for supporting John Hadl over Daryle Lamonica

  • Tony P says:

    I don’t think so but neither has much of a chance. Both throw a beautiful deep ball. I remember the Dallas vs Rams gamein 1973 where CB Charlie Waters of Dallas took a horrible whipping by Hadl to the speedster Harold Jackson (should be in HOF). The combo went for 4 TD’s that day in a season where Jackson had 13 of them. I think 13 TD’s back than was like 25 today. LOL Hadl had one of his best seasons at 33 years old in his first season with the Rams. He went 22 tD’s and11 ints. He threw for 52%. Back than anything over 50% was OK and over 55% was real good and close to 60% was great like Stabler and Griese were able to do. I believe HOFers Griese’s best year was 22 and 11. Who knew he could throw. LOL He had to after Csonka, Kiick and Morris declined. The ‘Human Bowling Ball” Nottingham, “Bowlegged” , Benny Malone and Norm “Boo” Bulaichwere all interesting but not terribly productive.

  • Tony P says:

    Where’s the oldtimer Bachslunch? He used to keep me honest on my old stuff. :) The guy knows his history.

  • Tony P says:

    I was picking on Griese. He was actually a very good passer going back to his Purdue days.Also a nifty runner.

  • BSLO says:

    Tony P – I second what everyone has said about Plunkett. Warner’s main case is based around the fact that despite his down years and late start to his career, he had a few seasons where he was arguably the best QB in the game. He also came up huge in the Super Bowl, often carrying his team even if they didn’t win. Plunkett has two Super Bowl wins, but never made a Pro Bowl (or really had a year where he deserved to) and spent most of his career fighting to keep his starting job. He was almost never even an above-average QB during the regular season. Earl Morrall might be a better comparable to Warner, but I would find it hard to support any QB that played 21 years and was only his team’s starter for 6 of them.

    I think Stabler and Lamonica were great players and would make my personal top 5 of senior QB’s not in the HOF (along with Conerly, Hadl and Anderson), but I agree that there are many, many other deserving players belonging in first. QB is well represented in the HOF, and I’d personally be fine if the senior’s committee didn’t nominate a QB for the next couple of decades, including Ken Anderson.

    Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas will both get in, but definitely not on the first-ballot. My guess is that Taylor’s wait will be shorter due to lack of competition at his position, but Thomas might have to wait around 5-10 years. He was an outstanding MLB, but I never thought of him as a true difference maker like Ray Lewis, Derrick Brooks or (to a lesser extent) Junior Seau.

  • chris says:

    so who does everybody think will get inducted on feb 2nd?

  • Paul says:

    Basically same list since Feb 2012:

    Larry Allen
    Cris Carter
    Curley Culp
    Charles Haley
    Bill Parcells
    Dave Robinson
    Michael Strahan

  • Rasputin says:

    I’ll add that Warner is in a very exclusive club of guys who took two different teams to the Super Bowl.

  • Justin says:

    Rasputin:

    I’m not that impressed with the “two teams to the Super Bowl.” That just means that his first team didn’t think he was worth keeping, which only highlights the very unusual nature of Warner’s candidacy.

    As for my final prediction:

    Ogden
    Allen
    Parcells
    Strahan
    Carter

  • Rasputin says:

    Well it doesn’t “just” mean that, since it also means he led two different teams to the SUPER BOWL. Lots of QBs don’t finish with the team they started with. What makes Warner unusual is his success with his new team.

  • robert ewing says:

    My Class

    Larry Allen

    Curley Culp

    Jonathan Ogden

    Dave Robinson

    Michael Strahan

  • Paul says:

    robert only three modern players and all first time, why no love for at least two returning players in what was described by many as a deep quality final ten in 2012?

  • robert ewing says:

    my bad paul I did not see that thanks for the help for my modern era player ill go with Charles Haley

  • Tony P says:

    San Fran has been considered at or near the top for a couple years so I feel good about them representing the NFC. Baltimore is a good story with Ray Lewis lifting up their defensive play for the first time all year. They just don’t seem like a SB team to me. I still can’t believe Flacco is all that good but he definetrly has a knack for the big games. They played last year for a Raven 16-6 win. I thought the game was bland and the QB play was not good at all. Hopefully Kapernick can save us all. LOL Did some of us put our 2013 Class picks on another thread? I know my is out there. Good comments BLSO. You nailed it again. Only thing I’d say about Zach there were 5 or so years that I think if Miami ever won than he would of made more of an impression. He was a beast though. The only knock was on pass coverage. Not so bad it ever got him off the field. Never would of gotten notoriety of Brooks and Lewis. They are in the best ever conversation. Call me crazy but I’m taking Brooks over Lewis.

  • Justin says:

    Rasputin:

    I don’t mean to belabor the point, but Kerry Collins was one win away from bringing two teams to the Super Bowl (Carolina lost in the NFC Championship Game in 1996 and NY Giants loss in the Super Bowl in 2000). If Carolina upsets Green Bay in 1996, Kerry Collins is not suddenly a HOF player. I agree that lots of QBs, even great QBs, play on multiple teams (e.g. Peyton Manning and Warren Moon), but very, very few, if any, HOF QBs are cut–not traded, but cut–by the team with which they make their name (yes, I know Unitas was cut by the Steelers, but that says a lot more about the Steelers in the pre-Noll era). Warner was then let go (he voided his deal) a second time the next season by the NY Giants. He was then benched for Matt Lienart (which speaks volumes about Wisenhunt). In the end, Warner is an incredibly difficult candidate to consider. HOF Famers aren’t suppose to have several very mediocre seasons in the prime of their careers. In this way, Moss is a second unusual future candidate. I’m not saying Warner is a definite “no,” but I am saying he is very difficult “yes.” If he played any other position, he would almost certainly have no chance, but then again QBs are the most important position in sports.

  • Tony P says:

    I think Randall Cunningham was cut or let go?He did great things with both the Eagles and Vikings. I’d put him above Collins.

    Did Wisenhunt draft Lienart? Anyway most Management wants to see their numer 1 pick play for a couple years before they would go another direction.

    Unlike other positions the QB’s success is realiant on all his Offensive players. Maybe it could effect how well he looks from year to year. One would have to go case by case for a look at that. No doubt QB is the most difficult position to be successful at. I guess that’s why SB wins are so important to the HOF.

    It usually takes a certian moxy and cool customer like a Starr, Griese, Plunkett, Brady and believe it or not Bradshaw.LOL Some grow into the cool customer trait with experience while others like Brady are naturals. Maybe that’s why Farve, Tarkington and Marino weren’t more successful? All were too much pedal to the metal or moxy guys. Great talent to be the TOP passers of their generations but…In Miami’s case it was probably too much Buffalo. :)

  • Paul says:

    In the case of Starr, Griese, Plunkett and Bradshaw they all also were surrounded by a great support of HOF players, especially on defense (more so then Farve, Tarkenton and Marino ever had consistently throughout their careers). As much as a great QB is often a key part of any successful playoff and Superbowl team, football wins are a team effort and without a strong core set of players supported by coaching and management (which is the case for Brady) no QB is going to be great and win the multiple SBs that now define their careers. I do think that the right attitude, skill set, ability to avoid turnovers, and manage a game and their teammates is critical for a QB as without those you can not win, but there also needs to a more complete team as the ability to win consistently with just a great QB is not very easy (e.g. Marino).

    As to the specific case for Warner as I posted earlier it is going to be one of the most interesting debates in the HOF selection process that we have seen, especially in the last decade or so. One other factor to consider is how many other two time MVPs are not already in the HOF? QB or not a two time MVP is going to set some serious consideration for the HOF.

  • Robert Ewing says:

    lets do a little qb comparison quarterback a is in the hof quarterback b is not

    A: Percentage 50.1 Passing Yds 27,663 TD’s 173 INT 220 QB Rating 65.5

    B. Percentage 50.4 Passing Yards 33,503 TD 244 INT 268 QB Rating 67.4

    Quarterback A was Joe Namath Quarterback B was John Hadl

  • Justin says:

    Robert Ewing:

    No one seriously argues that Joe Namath is in the HOF because of his stats. While I’m too young to have watched him play, he was apparentely someone you needed to see play to appreciate his greatness. In the end injuries took a huge toll on his body and he ended up with very mediocre career numbers. However, he still quarterbacked the greatest upset in NFL history, and did it with a certain panche that was memorable. As a result, he is a very poor benchmark for measuring other players. It is akin to saying that Running Back “X” has more career yards than Gale Sayers. Well, yeah, but did he have the same otherworldly runs and returns over a remarkable five year period.

  • Robert Ewing says:

    I wasn’t arguing Justin I was comparing read the whole freakin post

  • Paul says:

    Another way of comparing:

    Namath
    5× AFL All-Star selection (1965, 1967, 1968, 1969)
    1× Pro Bowl selection (1972)
    3× First-team All-AFL selection (1967, 1968, 1969)
    1× All-Pro selection (1972)
    1× Second-team All-AFL (1966)
    American Football League Champion (1968)
    World Champion (1968 season)
    Super Bowl III MVP (1969)
    AFL All-Time Team
    2× AFL MVP (1968, 1969)
    2× UPI AFL Player of the Year (1968, 1969)

    Hadl

    3× All-AFL selection (1965, 1966, 1968)
    4× AFL All-Star selection (1964, 1965, 1968, 1969)
    1969 AFL All-Star Game MVP
    2× Pro Bowl selection (1972, 1973)
    1× All-Pro selection (1973)
    1973 UPI NFC Player of the Year

  • Robert Ewing says:

    good point paul

  • Rasputin says:

    Justin, no one said that feat alone would make a QB a HoFer, but taking two different teams to the Super Bowl IS a great resume enhancing accomplishment. It confirms that the trip was more than just an artifact of playing in a particular system with particular players under a certain coach. Kerry Collins DIDN’T do it, and, unlike Collins, Warner was by far the most important player on both the Rams and the Cardinals. One could argue that cutting Warner says a lot about poor Rams decision making. He was struggling with injuries at the time but they pulled that trigger awfully fast.

    Taking two teams to the Super Bowl is a validating accomplishment and the only other guy I know of who pulled it off was Craig Morton, who was helped by a great defense both times. None of Warner’s Super Bowl teams had a strong defense. And before you dismiss Morton, I’ll point out that he was a good quarterback. Old school Cowboys fans will tell you that he had more raw physical talent than Don Meredith and Roger Staubach, particularly in terms of arm strength. Morton was a talented guy, and, while it’s not enough by itself to vault him to HoF status, taking two different teams to the Super Bowl is a legitimate feather in his cap and noteworthy whenever anyone pulls it off, especially since almost no one has.

  • Tony P says:

    I liked Morton and he was really good with the Broncos. He was no Trent Dilfer. LOL That’s why I was so surprised how bad he sucked in his 2nd SB. In the end he was to much of a stature and co-MVP’s Randy “Manster” White and Harvey”Too Mean” Martin said “Don’t mess with Texas”!! They clobbered him!! Martin should be a HOFer IMO.

    The Namath discussion bores me. And it raises my blood pressure. Much like Floyd Little, Lynn Swann and Fred Dean which I never bought what the Voters sold us.

  • Paul says:

    Morton may have the greater arm strength, but there is no way I would agree that he had more overall raw physical talent then Staubach. The history of the NFL is full of big arm QBs who had no success. And as we all know arm strength is by no measure a means of determining the greatness of any QB.

    Morton was a head case and had none of the leadership, competitiveness, and command of the game and huddle that Staubach had – measures that are much better indicator of the value and success of a QB as seen with other great QBs like Montana, Brady, Payton Manning, none of which were seen as having great arm strength.

    The Cowboys defense knew exactly what they were facing in Morton and that he would wilt under a heavy pass rush and pressure as they had seen him up and close as a teammate.

  • Rasputin says:

    Paul, I didn’t say Morton was better than Staubach overall or even anywhere near as good as Meredith. I’m just pointing out that, as Tony P said, he was no Trent Dilfer. Morton was good enough that it took Landry a long time to decide to start Staubach over him. From our future vantage point that seems like an obvious decision, but contemporary observers I’ve talked to didn’t think it was at the time.

    Tony P, I think the Doomsday Defense is primarily responsible for what happened to Morton in Super Bowl XII.

  • Tony P says:

    Sorry Rasp but Paul took the words out of my mouth. I know it just came out sounding that way. Those are very good points too about it taking so long for Staubach to take over. Morton fit Coach Landry’s machine better as the prototypical QB.Morton was maddening because of his flashes of brillance. In 1977 he had a new team and just enough consistency to lead a good team to the SB. One important thing they were lacking was a good RB. Another telling stat about his ability is that he was starting NFL QB until he was 38. Not too many QB’s can say that. I remember him as a pretty decent QB when he was old. LOL

    Man, Staubach would fit right in with today’s run, throw QB’s .LOL Except he would miss a hell of a lot of games. :) I’m just thinking of all the times I saw him with his bell rung and sniffing smelly salts and than going in many times to lead a comeback win. He was amazing!! He really did get the hell beat out of him.

    They didn’t protect the QB’s yet. Just a year or two later Jack Lambert said “they should put dresses on them” because of some rule changes. LOL I personally think they’ve lost all good judgemant regarding helmet hits with all positions. Someone should replay to question degree of penalty. Maybe it should be 5 and 15 like the facemasks were. That would make more sense. One of those calls is going to cost a team bigtime at the worst time like….a SB.:) I’ve already seen some very questionable ones in the playoffs.

    That was my point too about Dallas’s Defense. “Hollywood” Henderson and Cliff Harris were bigtime too. Do any of youall remember the Don’t mess with Texas commercials? White and Martin did a famouse one. Martin grabbed the lip of a 55 gal. drum (you know forearm up) and raised it straight up a couple feet off the ground.. Everyone thought it was damn impressive back than. LOL They may of been the only team that could derailed Morton and the Orange Crush that year. I think that was Dallas’ best season from the 70′s-80′s. Just look at how they clobbered so many teams.

    I was going to say best D too but I have to give props to the old guard and what they did to Miami 24-3. That was damn impressive considering the Dolphins Offense. A lot of damns going around tonight. LOL I think the Dallas “Offense” Team that lost to the Steelers the year after beating Denver was the best from that timeframe. Dorsett was in his second year and better. But for the old “goat” literally LOL, they very likely would have back to back SB wins. Of course I’m talking about HOFer Jackie Smith flopping around in the end zone with the ball bouncing off his belly. So sad!

    Anyone think they can find the RB over 30 years old with the most yards in a season? See if you can top 1,307 yds by Tony Dorsett at 31 in 14 games. : )It has to average out enough ahead if more games were played. Good luck. :)

  • Tony P says:

    Oops! Dorsett did in 16 games. Still impressive. :)

  • Tony P says:

    Based on a recent comment by his Head Coach. Yes, two more years of around 1,000 yds. Answer: ?

  • Tony P says:

    3-time PBer Steven Jackson has over 10.000 yds rushing with 4.2 avg (over 13,000 from scrim) and a streak of 8 straight seasons of over 1,000yds. He’ll be 30 yrs old next season. Hmmm! If he makes it to 10 straight do we support him for HOF? A lot of guys around 10,000 not going to make it. By my eyes he’s been pretty great! Like so many, most of his career they knew who was getting the ball. Rams suck! Also I suppose I’m an old fogey cause I say, will you just cut your hair, please. :) It drives me crazy!! The same for Clay Matthews too. Come on, man! I know I’ll hear about this one. LOL

  • Tony P says:

    One last thought. If Adrian Peterson didn’t play another down he goes in on the first ballot. Hands down!! He’s better than Eric, Barry, Emmit, Walter and O.J. He’s a mixture of Jim Brown’s strength and Gayle Sayers moves. And he’s doing it against strongest and fastest Defensive players ever. You can’t get better than that!! Yes, I’ve drunk the kool-aid. LOL IMO I think he’s the best runner ever. This coming from a dye in the wool Texas Longhorn fan about a Oklahoma Sooner. And yes it does hurt just a little. LOL!!

    I haven’t heard Jim Brown say anything. I wonder if his ego will let him give Adrian his due? I know he gave Walter a lot of praise back in the day. Probably did the same for Barry. I don’t think he said much about Emmit. The media made sure he was put in his historical place despite the rushing record.

  • Paul says:

    It did not take Landry a long time to decide on Staubach. His rookie season (after being out of football for 4 years) was 1969 and he became the starting QB in middle of his third season. Where as Morton had four seasons to learn the system before first becoming the starter in 1969 as there was no way Landry was starting Staubach as a rookie. And I do not agree that morton had more physical talent then Staubach, just more experience in the system.

    If Jackson can get to 10 straight 1000y seasons he is well his way to the HOF, but lets see how he manages after 30 and the changes in St.Louis and even if he stays there.

    And lets hold off on the talk that Peterson is the greatest RB of all time. He has had a great 7 year career and in 2012 one of the best seasons by a RB ever. But at this point he not better then Jim Brown, Barry or Payton. Lets see his entire career play out before making that comparison and judgement. And if his career ended today I am not so sure he gets in the HOF on the first ballot (just look at Terrell Davis) as some voters would question the short career.

  • chris says:

    i will stand by my comment that a wide receiver will get in on saturdays announcement

  • Justin says:

    When describing Adrian Peterson near the draft to a friend who doesn’t watch college football, I said he should be the dictionary definition of “Running Back.” He has the complete package. All of that said, Adrian is not yet the greatest running back ever. I agree he would make the HOF even if he never played another down, but he would only be in the class of Dickerson, Campbell, Faulk, Thurman Thomas, (and I’m sure I’m missing some others) etc. He would still not be on the “Rushmore” of Running Backs with Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Emmitt Smith. However, he might still get there.

    Robert Ewing: I didn’t say you were “arguing” either. I just said that you cannot appreciate Namath based on stats. The comparison simply leaves out too much. And praising other players for meeting or surpassing his stats doesn’t help that much.

    Rasputin: I agree with you that the discussion about Warner for the HOF is greatly enhanced by his trips to the Super Bowl with multiple teams and his steller performances in those games. In fact, we are probably only talking about Warner as a HOFer because of those games. I’m simply noting that the fact Warner took two teams has a down side. It makes him an incredibly unusual candidate. One that from our discussion will stir all kinds of passionate comments and arguments. I personnaly think he falls just short of the mark, but I completely understand if he makes it for others. I look forward to seeing what the voters do.

  • Justin says:

    Chris: I hope you are correct!

  • Rasputin says:

    Paul, I disagree with your contention that it didn’t take long to decide between Staubach and Morton. Staubach backed up Morton for two years and it was never clear cut that he was just biding time before becoming the starter. Morton had been a high first round pick after establishing himself as the best QB in Cal history and the all time PAC – 8 passing leader. He had also just led the team to the Super Bowl, while Staubach had missed years of playing since college with military service. In 1971, with two good QBs on the roster and increasing frustration over not “winning the big one”, Landry infamously spent the first several games experimentally alternating starting QBs, and eventually even alternating them each play. While I chalk this up as a worthwhile experiment from a brilliant innovator (not every new idea turns up roses), it was panned by players, fans, and writers who to this day complain about how it took so long for Landry to decide between the two. Each QB had his supporters, but everyone wanted a decision one way or another. That alternation gave the Cowboys a shaky start as neither guy found a consistent rhythm, but after Landry finally settled on Staubach as the starter they went undefeated and the rest was history.

    As for physical talent, I’m not even arguing that one had more, but am just pointing out how contemporaries described them. Morton was built more like the prototypical NFL quarterback. In my personal view Staubach obviously had the advantage in mobility, while Morton seems to have had one of the strongest arms of the time. Raw physical ability aside, clearly Staubach was the much greater passer and overall QB.

    Tony P, your comments on the QB topic didn’t disagree with anything I said. The Staubachian attributes Paul listed weren’t the raw physical traits I was talking about. And yeah, Morton’s in the Broncos’ Ring of Fame and still ranks #2 in franchise passing yards. Though he never made a Pro Bowl he posted a 90.5 passer rating in his final full season in 1981. His career 73.5 rating was around 10 points higher than the league average in the 1970s, and higher than Trent Dilfer’s 70.2 career rating, the latter’s being below average for his era. Morton’s career completion percentage was also significantly better than the NFL average for his era. Morton was an accurate deep passer who led the NFL three years in yards/attempt. He was a good QB.

    I also agree that Staubach would be lighting up the stat boards like crazy if he played in today’s pass friendly game. But sorry, Tony P, I have to agree with Justin about Adrian Peterson not quite being at the level you’re trying to put him.

  • Rasputin says:

    Justin, I agree that Warner had an unusual path that may cost him first ballot status, but his 32,344 yards are enough to say he had a substantial career, and his excellent career metrics of 65.5% completion (currently 4th all time) and a 93.7 passer rating (currently 8th all time), combined with the postseason accomplishments, would be enough for me to vote for him.

  • Paul says:

    I would not count Staubach’s rookie year in 1969 as part of the “long wait” to become a starter as I mentioned before Landry was not going to start a rookie, especially one out of the game for the previous four years, ahead of the four year groomed successor. So the “long wait” for Staubach as actually 1 1/2 seasons.

    And any discussion regarding the career of Warner needs to also include the fact that he is a two time NFL MVP – not many players can claim that, and all who have won 2 or more are in the HOF or in the case of Favre, Manning and Brady will someday be in.

  • Rasputin says:

    Staubach’s rookie season saw him waiting behind Morton regardless of Landry’s intentions, but the long time to decide I spoke of was the first several games of the 1971 season, when Landry wasn’t sure which QB would lead the Cowboys into the future, and when he may have toyed with the idea of permanently keeping both in a revolutionary new duel QB system that would perpetually keep defenses off balance with different styles. That said, the point of all this was just to illustrate that Morton was a good QB.

  • Paul says:

    Yes the first half of the 1971 was a mess, one that was created by Landry and very questionable decision – oh well at least it worked out for the long run.

    And I agree Morton was a good QB, but in the history of the NFL and in any given season the league is full of good QBs – just very few great (or the term everyone seems to use now “elite”). Even the history of the winning SB teams have plenty of good QBs.

  • robert ewing says:

    will we have a receiver inducted this year or will we have a log jam in 2014 with Harrison coming on the ballot

    Justin: I never said Namath wasn’t a hof I was just doing a comparison I wasn’t downgrading or dissing Namath I was just comparing him with a non hof qb

  • Rasputin says:

    Sure, Paul, except Morton finished in the top 3 or 4 in the league in passer rating four seasons, and in the top 10 six different years, so while there might be a few QBs like that at any given time I’m not sure the NFL is quite “full” of them. No one said Morton was great, but he was a good QB who was capable of accomplishing great things at times.

  • Paul says:

    On Saturday who would be your biggest surprise of a player selection or non-selection?
    Larry Allen non selection

    And what would be your biggest disappointment from the election process?
    No WR selected

  • Paul says:

    Some may find this article an interesting read as it has some pretty sound reasoning:

    Predicting the Pro Football Hall of Fame class of 2013

    http://www.marinij.com/ci_22466471/pro-football-hall-fame-predictions-class-2013

  • Justin says:

    Surprise non-selection: Ogden
    Disappointment: A class featuring: Parcells, Allen, Strahan, Haley, and Williams (all NFC East rivals of my Redskins) — funny thing is, this COULD actually happen!

  • Paul says:

    Yes it could and I never thought about that: Wow an all NFC East HOF class!

    BTW congrats on the return of the Redskins to prominence in the NFL, personally not a fan but good see that they are on an upward trend as they are a key franchise in the league with dedicated fan base, good for the league.

  • Rasputin says:

    I think RGIII is a good guy. That’s all I have to say about the Redskins. I wouldn’t have a problem with an all NFC East class. It’s historically the strongest division, especially in the Super Bowl era, and was incredibly tough in the period in which those guys played.

  • Tony P says:

    Fellows,
    I wasn’t saying Peterson would be the best statistically but rather he is the BEST. IMO I have seen enough to make that very subjective statement. I’ve seen a lot of real time players (I’m kind of old. LOL) so I feel like I’m fairly good at comparing players. I don’t need to see 200 games or want him to rush for 50,000 yds. :) I’m by no means saying I’m better or in many cases as good at judging these HOF questions. My remarks about his HOF future were based on the precedent set on the Gale Sayers’ selection and the 5pb/3ap accolades Peterson has already collected. Seems damn good for a RB at any stage of his career. I think T. Davis is a few nothces below Peterson so I wouldn’t consider his HOF case.

    The Morton vs. Staubach episode was very frustrating to HC Landry, Morton and the Cowboy fans. I bet most of the fans would say it was long and I would agree. It’s all a matter of perspective.

    You guys didn’t venture a guess :( “Based on a recent comment by his Head Coach. Yes, two more years of around 1,000 yds. Answer: ?” 49ers HC Jim Harbough said Frank Gore was a HOF RB. :)

    Anyone think there is a RB with more than Dorsett’s 1,307yds rushing after 30yrs old?

  • Tony P says:

    Biggest surprise for me would be if Timmy Brown makes it in before Cris Carter. :) I would be hanging from the rafters with JOY!! Seriously doubt it would happen if I do think Brown was better in every way but catching TD’s. Brown would do it all including puting himself in harms way across the middle unlike Carter’s tippie toe act on the sidelines (usually in the End Zone). The best all time at that IMO was Drew Pearson and he’s not in the HOF.

    Referring back to Frank Gore, I can’t beliee he’s only 5’9″ tall and he runs so tough up the middle like he does. Seems like a very humble man and I’d like to see him along with Justin Smith get a ring more than anyone. I got to believe Smith will strongly be considered for HOF. I’m glad he’s getting pub after languishing in Cinncy for so long. Much like HOFer Corey Dillon. He,he. I just like saying it. :) I loved the way Dillon ran. Notice New England can’t win a SB anymore. Harrison back too would help on D. Talk about intimidators.

  • Rasputin says:

    Stats aside, when I saw Peterson run even in his early years it just screamed “greatness” to me. He’s clearly the greatest RB of his era, though I suspect there’s a temptation to overrate him slightly because, while the league used to have multiple backs with that visceral “greatness” impact at any given time, he’s really been the only one over the past several years, or at least the only one who’s sustained that greatness for an extended period of time. It’s a feature of the league moving more toward the passing attack and a running game by committee. Fewer true franchise running backs, and less team emphasis on rushing at all levels of football. At least Peterson proves it’s still possible to be an old school, great all around running back.

  • Tony P says:

    I love old school!! :) But I must admit the new school is so big and fast. Of course the new school has a ton of advantages like fantastic amenities to stay in shape is year round. I wonder however if we could say making so much money takes away some of the hunger, desire and love for the game? Back in day they really needed those paychecks. Owners had the players over a barrel.

    Peterson is a beast!! Actually I wasn’t sure about him after he tailed off a bit after his Freshman season and than he broke collarbone to end his college career. Boy was I wrong. It seems like he got so much stronger once he turned pro. He punishes the Defense. No, he really does have the total package. We must remember that Jim Brown was a FB and his size gave him a huge advantage with his generation of Defensive players. That must of made him look even more menacing. Can you imagine once he broke through the D-Line what those other players must of thought. Probably a lot of them went O lay rather than get their brains beaten in. Brown was the package too!! Maybe since I’ve seen very little of Brown I’ll make him 1b with Peterson being a nose hair infront at 1a. :)

  • Paul says:

    I think Peterson is a great player and has an opportunity to be among the best of all time once his career is complete. However, being somewhat “old school” myself, I am not prepared to judge any current player above the historical greats like Brown, Payton, and Sanders, until their body of work is finished. But like Brady we should all watch closely and admire their careers as they unfold as their greatness is in front of us to view and all too soon will be gone. These are rare players to enjoy now.

  • chris says:

    so the announcment is tomorrow, finally? any final thought from everybody?

  • chris says:

    peter king predicts in his friday column today that larry allen, charles haley, johnathan ogden, bill parcells, and cris carter will get in for 2013

  • Dr Phil says:

    Peter King’s prediction is my prediction. That’s bad news for Peter since I’m likely to be quite wrong.

  • Dr Phil says:

    The biggest problem with that prediction is that there is only 1 defensive player.

  • Billy says:

    How many rushing yards did Riggins have in 1983. I know he had 24 TD’s that year and he was over 30.

  • Paul says:

    Larry Allen, Cris Carter, Curley Culp, Charles Haley, Bill Parcells, Dave Robinson, Michael Strahan

    But there are surprises and I have never got 100% correct. I am pretty certain the modern 5 will come from some mix of these 8: Allen, Carter, Haley, Ogden, Parcells, Reed, Strahan, Williams. Bottom line is that 3 or more of those deserving players and their supporters are going to disappointed (and likely vocal about it) Saturday night and beyond. On the positive side for those ending up in the 6-10 slot is that they have a great chance for election in 2014 when there is a much weaker 1st year class.

    This year there is great potential for vote splitting and resulting log jams at the WR, OL and DL positions with the voter down from 15 to 10 then from 10 to 5, which creates all this uncertainty.

    And even Peter King has stated that he has never been able to predict the results and is always surprised at the final results with at least one surprising add or left off player.

  • Andy says:

    If you want to have your officials predictions posted for who the committee will select on Saturday, we’ve put up another post here: http://www.zoneblitz.com/2013/02/01/zoneblitz-hall-fame-selection-contest/

  • BSLO says:

    Paul, I think that your prediction is mostly likely to happen, with probably one surprise thrown in. After reading a lot of predictions today, I’m suddenly a lot less certain that Strahan is a lock, and that Sapp and Ogden may have more support than I thought in their 1st year.

    I still think that the only lock is Larry Allen, with Parcells now starting to look like the most likely of the returning candidates. I think the split will be 2 offensive players, 2 defensive players and a coach/contributor. I think if the voters want to avoid a lot of criticism, they should aim to induct Carter, Haley and Parcells. Those three returning candidates seem to be the ones that fans get most riled up about…aside from every decent Raider that played in the 70′s, lol.

    I’ll post my final predictions on the other thread…despite what I’ve read today I’ll probably stick with my initial predictions from months ago.

  • Rasputin says:

    But on the other hand, Tony P, new school doesn’t tackle in practice and has rules favoring offense across the board, not just the passing game.

  • Tony P says:

    Good points. So many things to consider.

  • Corey says:

    I can’t really say who is a lock and who is not. I think it’s possible for any of them to get in. I will not understand though if Culp or Robinson or both get elected.

  • Paul says:

    Although I may not agree to Culp and Robinson as the best senior candidates having them not elected only hurts the cause for selecting seniors which I do strongly support

  • Paul says:

    At least this year we are starting to see some better media stories on the election process for the HOF and how difficult it is to select just the best 5 among the quality final 15 and that there are always going to be disappointed deserving players and their supporters, here is another story such story….

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/01/hall-of-fame-selections-sure-to-generate-controversy/

  • Pingback: Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2013 Announced | Zoneblitz.comZoneblitz.com

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