The Class of 2013 Hall of Fame was announced Saturday, with Larry Allen, Cris Carter, Curley Culp, Jonathon Ogden, Bill Parcells, Dave Robinson and Warren Sapp making the cut.
The final 10 candidates were Michael Strahan, Parcells, Allen, Jerome Bettis, Carter, Charles Haley, Ogden, Andre Reed, Sapp and Aeneas Williams.
While several of the finalists were strong holdovers from previous votes, this was a strong class of former players who were in their first year of eligibility. In addition to finalists Ogden, Allen, Strahan and Sapp, first-year eligible candidates included safety John Lynch, running back Priest Holmes, quarterback Steve McNair and kicker Morten Andersen.
The finalists also again included three wide receivers – Cris Carter, Tim Brown and Andre Reed – who reportedly each have factions of support among Hall of Fame voters but who individually had not been able to garner enough support to be elected.
This year’s vote did/did not clear up that logjam, which only will/would have gotten tighter with Marvin Harrison gaining eligibility next year and guys like Terrell Owens, Torry Holt and Hines Ward waiting in the wings a few years down the road.
The enshrinees were selected from a list of 15 finalists that also included Tim Brown, Eddie DeBartolo, Kevin Greene, Art Modell, and Will Sheilds. Culp and Robinson were nominated by the Hall’s senior committee and went directly to the final stage for an up or down vote.
The process started in September, when the Hall of Fame announced 127 modern-era nominees for the Hall. In late November, the committee of voters narrowed that initial list down to 27 semifinalists. The 15 finalists were announced in mid-January. Voters held discussions throughout the day Saturday, first narrowing the 15 finalists to 10 and then from 10 to five. The last five candidates then received an up or down vote. The class of 2013 will be enshrined on Saturday, August 3 in Canton, Ohio.
The 2012 Hall of Fame class included Dermontti Dawson, Chris Doleman, Cortez Kennedy, Willie Roaf and senior candidate Jack Butler. The other senior nominee, Dick Stanfel, was not elected.
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I think Sapp over Strahan is not as bad of a choice as some people think. Same number Pro Bowls, same number of First Team All Pros, both had a Defensive Player of the Year award and Sapp made two All Decade teams to Strahan’s one. One All Decade team, in my opinion, pushes a lot of people into the “in” category for me. Two All Decade teams tells me that player should be in, no questions asked.
It’s wouldn’t of been my choice. But than I’ve always thought Sapp was not as great as his accolades show. Seemed to me that during the ladder half of his career that he wasn’t properly conditioned and could of been better. John Randle was better. In I’m trying to think of a weaker DT in the HOF than Sapp.
I know he was always good for soundbite which the media loves. And he’s taken his clown act to the NFL Network. Don’t get me wrong, I like him but I’m talking football and he could a little longer. IMO Charles has more than paid his dues and should of been the choice. Nope for Dave Robinson. Did we really need one more Packer?
Did we know one more Packer? Yes. Did we need Dave Robinson? No.
A weaker DT in the HOF? They just elected at least one today, Curley Culp.
Both of the senior choices were not good this year, in my opinion. Culp and Robinson get elected while Stanfel got snubbed in 2012. I have no idea why.
I agree with Rod Woodson and others that Charles Haley and Michael Strahan deserved induction before Sapp. Two time all decade members tend to be first ballot locks, but in this case the mistake was putting Sapp on both All Decade teams in the first place. The last two All Decade teams have been shoddily constructed at many spots. At some positions (like 1990s safety) they’re a sick joke. In a vacuum Sapp doesn’t seem first ballot worthy to me.
I’m fine with the other modern era selections though. Parcells should have been in last year. I guess I’ll officially begin my annual call for Chuck Howley’s senior nomination now. Hopefully this is the last year I’ll have to do this.
Ok, let’s say Sapp doesn’t deserve those two all decade teams, he still has a 4/7 profile, just like Strahan, as well as a Defensive Player of the Year award, and while Super Bowls are not everything to me, voters like that. Sapp has a ring just like Strahan does.
I agree Howley should be in, but my top priority is Johnny Robinson.
Sapp was definitely the surprise of the day for me. I didn’t think he had a shot at getting in over Strahan, but I guess that those two all-decade teams helped. One thing I absolutely didn’t take into account was that the two senior players were on defense. This allowed them to achieve a balanced class despite not inducting Strahan, Haley or Williams.
Aside from of course the inducted players, the biggest winner today was Will Shields. With Allen and Ogden getting in right away, he seems poised to make a big jump next year. Andre Reed and Jerome Bettis also look like winners after today, with Carter getting in and Bettis jumping into the final 10. The biggest losers were definitely Haley and Greene. With Strahan not getting in, I’d call Haley a longshot next year. I thought Greene would at least jump into the final 10, but he looks like a longshot for next year as well with Strahan and Derrick Brooks to contend with.
My early guess for next year is Brooks, Strahan, Reed, Shields and Williams. I could see trading Williams for Bettis depending on the senior nominees as Williams could take a backseat again if another DB gets nominated.
chris carter finally made it why he had to wait this long is ridiculous but way to go c.c
Corey,
Most definetly Johnny Robinson!! My bad, I was actually thinking of DT’s elected as a Modern day like Alan Page Merlin Olsen, Bob Lilly, Joe Greene, Randy White, Cortez Kennedy, John Randle etc….. Not saying Sapp doesn’t belong. He had a good year late in his career with the Raiders but I believe because of his poor conditioning (couldn’t stay on the field) it lowers his stature against some of the greatest. Just my opinion. :)
You should read something to learn about Curly Culp the Defensive Player of the year. He was a GREAT player in the 1970’s. From Super Bowl 4 (1970) on he functioned as a Nose Guard throughout his career. In the Chief’s 4-3 he lined up over the Center. He was the first to be put in that position which is credited as Hank Stram’s invention.. Later with the Oilers which were some of his best years he was in the newly created 3-4 lineup. He held the position over Center which was than called Nose Guard and today it’s known as Nose Tackle. As you know the position is an ugly position and rarely gets much recognition (compared to every other defensive position) for stuffing the middle. Over the last ten years the Steelers Casey Hampton has been regarded as one of the best but I dare say he is a household name. Recently Vince Wilfork has been getting his due at the position which I think is great. But don’t be fooled by Culp’s late addition because recognition has come slow by the HOF. Slow amazingly slow for Culp to be the only one. LOLI believe his case is a rarity because his accolades don’t match his success in the NFL. Wikipedia is a good source of information.
Culp had a nice career but it just seemed like there are many more deserving players from the Senior pool who have more Pro Bowls, more First Team All Pros, in the case of the very deserving Randy Gradishar, also a Defensive Player of the Year award and in the cases of numerous others, an All Decade selection, something Culp never had. When I say that last August that Culp and Dave Robinson were not on my mind, they really were not on my mind as to who I thought the Senior selectors would pick.
There are too many players not in Canton whom I felt would be a better choice than Culp would have been. It’s good for the Seniors that both got elected this year but I still think Dick Stanfel last year more deserving than either one this year. Out of Culp’s Super Bowl IV teammates, I would put Robinson ahead before him for sure and I also would put Ed Budde in the Hall of Fame before I would put Culp in.
In any event though, he is in and that Super Bowl IV team now has seven players in the Hall of Fame, plus Hank Stram. It’s amazing with all of those Hall of Famers that they won just one championship. I am not too optimistic on Robinson being a Senior nominee for 2014, but hopefully he will be.
Hopefully they do a better job with the senior nominees this year.
I agree that there are plenty of well deserving senior candidates to choose from for 2014 but I am not going now to use the 2013 results to dismiss the election of Culp and Robinson since failing to elect one or both seniors would only hurt the future cause of other seniors.
Two OL were elected this year so I see no reason why two DL (Strahan, Haley) and/or two LBs (Brooks, Haley) could not elected in 2014.
Both Williams and Haley advanced to final 10 in last two elections so with neither ahead I am thinking Haleys 5 SBs may finally pay off.
Thank you Paul. Correct we can go on and on about who didn’t get picked. But if a guy deserves it he deserves it, the end. Move on to the next year. Plus I don’t see much of an argument against a guy (Culp) that was the first at his position. Now when LB’s like Dave Robinson who play the same position as a Chuck Howley than I have a problem with that. It seems like the HOF committee is always screwing it up on these Seniors but not with Culp.
Culp may of started of a Chief but I’d be surprised if he didn’t go in as an Oiler if he had a choice. I could be wrong. :) But Houston loved Culp! When he arrived they were a L-O-S-E-R!! I saw them play HOFer Leroy Kelly and the Browns in 1972. They were bad, they were 1-13 bad. They were a joke except for two players, HOFers Ken Houston and Elvin Bethea. The Offense was anemic. Very hard to watch. LOL. QB Dan Pastorini was roadkill with back to back 1-13 seasons. Curley Culp showed up and the immediately went to 7-7 and 10-4. Talk about and town that was jazzed. And than Robert Brazile came along and they were one of the best Defenses in the NFL. But their Offense flashed with Pastorini to 00 Kenny Burroughs and dropped off until Big Earl Campbell came to town. Luv you Blue!!! I don’t think the NFL has seen such excitement for a regular season games before or since.
It’s a fact he was on the Chiefs SB team. If Robinson doesn’t get in I don’t believe it will be because their are too many Chiefs in the HOF but rather the fact the HOF rarely puts any Safeties in the Hall. Only 7 in 53 years.!!! What can they f@!%king honesty say when a Safety with credentials whose only a couple notches at most below an all-time great like Ronnie Lott still isn’t in the HOF after almost 10 years?? Someone needs to explain to me why a player as great as Denver’s Steve Atwater is being shut out? I know other deserve it but he does too and was a premier player for a winner. Maybe they don’t like Denver players? Sure seems like it. Is it the stigma of Denver losing 4 Super Bowls? He was on only one (as a Rookie) and was a big part of two SB wins. He was a tackling machine and hit as hard as any DB whose ever played. Was it because they are only looking at ints? I wonder how many he knocked down? Someone thought he was good enough for 8 PB’s. I don’t know but it’s wrong!!! That’s my HOF rant for the day. LOL
Congratulations to all. A pretty good class, I think.
Agreed that the biggest surprise was Sapp getting in instead of Strahan (and I’d guess it came down to these two for the final cut-down to five and was close). I think Sapp belongs in, though, and Strahan will get in next year. Had thought Strahan would get in this year and Sapp would wait a couple years like Cortez Kennedy. Carter ahead of Reed was a mild seniority surprise, but Carter’s finally breaking through should help get Reed and Brown in soon. Also not convinced that Culp and Robinson were anything resembling the most egregious Senior snubs out there, but they have elected worse via this route and I can at least see some sort of case for both.
My guess for next year: Shields, Reed, Strahan, Derrick Brooks, and A. Williams, plus hopefully some really good Seniors. Tony Dungy and Marvin Harrison will also be eligible and probably finalists, but I doubt they get in first ballot.
Zach Thomas will also be eligible next year — forgot. He probably won’t be “first ballot” either.
For the football HOF (unlike baseball HOF) players, like Culp, do not go in as a member of a team. They are listed as members for teams they played with as either a primary contributor or as minor one. In some cases like Culp (Kansas City/Houston) they are listed as primary contributors to more than one team. The media and fans usually identify a player with the team he had the greatest impact and for Culp I guess that depends on whether you are a fan or the Cheifs SB era team or Oilers of the late 70s.
For 2014 I would go with Shields, Reed, Strahan, Brooks, and Haley, with A. Williams and Bettis as the wildcards. I do not see any other 1st time players or jumps from the 2013 25 semi-finalists into election, although with a weaker first year class there will be 3-4 new names in the final 15 from the 2013 25 semifinalists.
Here is my current working list of future 1st time ballot HOFs (not that they will all get elected but who is eligible and when), please feel free to let me know of any errors or additions as I know this list is neither fully complete or correct:
2014: Derrick Brooks, Tony Dungy, Marvin Harrison, Zach Thomas
2015: Isaac Bruce, Edgerrin James, Walter Jones, Ty Law, Kevin Mawae, Orlando Pace, Junior Seau, Kurt Warner, Terry Holt, Kevin Mawae
2016: Brett Favre, Terrell Owens
2017: LaDainian Tomlinson, Hines Ward
2018: Ray Lewis, Tony Gonzalez
Here is an interesting case. Walter Jones was injured in 2008, he never played in 2009 and retired in 2010 so does that mean he is actually eligible for 2014 election (having not played the five required seasons: 2009-2013)?
It was very premature for me to say that Joe could be in Hall; but at the same time, it is premature to say he won’t since he is 54-26 as a starter in regular while posting 17,633 passing yards and 102-56 TD-Int. He hasn’t made the Pro Bowl or been named All Pro, but he has years to make the Pro Bowl multiple times. This past postseason he was golden: 11 TDs, 0 Ints, Super Bowl MVP. Overall for a career in postseason: 9-4 as a starter, 19-8(TD-int).
Bachs told me seeral years ago that Culp wasn’t a worthy choice from my list. :) It doesn’t sound like you’ve had a change of heart. I guess we will never agree on that one. How surprised were you when you heard of his nomination? I guess the next one on my list is Bill Bergy. LOL I know you love him as a choice too. Not!!
Joe Flacco still has that slight potential of being a flash in the pan but he would have to drop off a cliff. I could swear the last two games I was watching Aaron Rodgers with the pinpoint precision. As good as he was, call me crazy but I thought Jacoby Jones could of been the MVP. I keep thinking about my Texans letting him get away. Speed like that is always good to have around.
Kapernick was amazing and should be a top QB for a long time. That arm!!! I kept saying no don’t throw it and than he hits these little windows with bullets. I think a young Dan Marino and John Elway had “that arm” too but not sure they were as accurate. And for the young man to be so unexperienced looking like a deer in the headlights and than to correct himself in the same game, in the Super Bowl, is crazy good. Many would unravel with a loss of confidence..
My only regret is now I have to listen to Ray Lewis for months talk about how God presented him with a vision of winning the Super Bowl for “his guys”. Than his mug will be on ESPN or NFL Network as a commentator for years. Nance said folks love or hate Lewis. I don’t hate but I sure do think he skated in his early troubles and should of paid for them. I guess stardom has it’s priviledge even with murder.
Jason Taylor goes on Paul’s list IMO ahead of Zach Thomas.
The stage is definitely set for Flacco to start building a Hall of Fame case. Brady and Manning are in their late 30’s, Rivers and Roethlisberger are starting to decline a bit and other than Luck, the rest of the QB’s in the AFC don’t look like they have high ceilings at this point. He will benefit from having a full year with Jim Caldwell as his OC, but I think next season will absolutely define his career.
He’s spent 5 years (especially the last 4) putting up the exact same stats…just north of 3500 passing yards, around 25 TD’s and 10-12 INT’s. Part of it is likely the Ravens’ offensive scheme, but he needs to do more than that to get consideration for the Pro Bowl. Winning the Super Bowl will likely help get him some reputation votes next year, but I’m not convinced that he has the talent (or works in the right scheme) to be an All-Pro. He needs to keep winning games and distinguish himself in some way from Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger, because those are the guys he will inevitably get compared to. Every QB with over 100 career regular season wins is in the Hall, and he’s already more than halfway there…that’s definitely a good start.
Regardless of any step forward he takes next year, it’s also worth wondering whether the Ravens still have a window to be top contenders. They are headed toward a big salary cap crunch next year, as they are 5 million over the cap already even with Lewis retiring, Ed Reed’s big cap hit off the books and of course Flacco to re-sign. There are going to be some tough decisions this year with who to cut, who to re-sign and who to let leave as free agents. A lot of the continuity, identity and leadership on this team is going to be compromised this offseason. It’ll be interesting to see how Flacco responds.
I will add Jason Taylor to the list of eligible players in 2017. Again they are not in any ranked order just when they are eligible.
And I agree with Flacco as he is starting to build a HOF career but it will take some high quality years and all pro numbers for him to make a solid case, he is young and certainly has the time, management and coaching to set the stage for more team success.
One outcome of SBs for me is to see the start of a potential rise in new top teams and players, perhaps both the Ravens and 49ers are just starting a run towards continued success this decade. The pieces are all there, just need to continue to build.
Time to start looking forward to Seniot Nominees: My first thoughts list
1. Chuck Howley -LB
2. Jerry Kramer- G
3. Kenny Anderson- QB
4. Maxie Baughan- LB
5. Randy Gradishar- LB
6. Jhnny Robinson- S
7. Walt Sweeney- G
8. Pete Retzlaff- TE
9. L.C. Greenwood-DE
10. Lester Hayes- CB
11. Jake Scott- S
12. Rick Casares- FB
13. Cliff Branch- WR
14. Bob Kuechenberg- G
15. Eddie Meador- S
16. Houston Antwine- DT
Billy, that’s a pretty good list to start with. I try not to be too much of a homer on this blog, but I would add Mick Tinglehoff in there somewhere. I hope to carve out some time to do some more studying of potential senior candidates in the near future, but as of now the two guys I am strongest in support of are Jerry Kramer and Johnny Robinson.
@Paul – I did see over the weekend that the HOF confirmed 2015 as Walter Jones’ first year of eligibility, due to being on IR in 2009.
A couple other names to add:
2016: Alan Faneca, Darren Sharper.
2017: Brian Dawkins.
My early guess (and it really is a guess as I never get these correct) would Ken Anderson and Chuck Howley for 2014 seniors, I am thinking that with Robinson’s selection in 2013 it will be quite sometime before the committee nominates another 1960s era Packer, thus leaving Kramer out.
Tony did HOF confirm that and where (link?) as I read different media discussion for 2014 with Jones not included and sometimes included. Thanks.
Will make those updates to my list
Cliff Harris is deserving as a senior candidate. The safety position is vastly under represented IMO.
Next year it will be interesting to see where Marvin Harrison slots in. If he breaks into the Top 10 alongside Reed and Tim Brown is still in the 11-15 range then Brown may unfortunately be one of those 15% or so of multiple finalists whose name eventually drops off the ballot. Kevin Greene may have a similar problem too of not quite breaking into the Top 5, though once Strahan and Haley are elected, Greene will be the clear cut number one pass rusher until Jason Taylor in 2017. Seau will get the LB vote in a strong 2015 so perhaps 2016 might fit for Greene as Brett Favre is the only realistic 1st ballot name that year.
I think there’s a clear Top 7 (Brooks, Shields, this year’s 6-10) with Will Shields the standout name to jump from 11-15 now that Ogden, Allen, Roaf and Dawson are no longer ‘blocking’ his path. Next year will be Shields’ 3rd year on the ballot, the same number of times it took Randall McDaniel to hear his name called, and he’s obviously now the Number 1 OL. Walter Jones is 2015 as far I’m concerned having spent 2009 on IR. I happen to believe everyone from this Top 7 will be elected by 2015 (with Seau, Jones and Warner) or 2016 (with Favre) at the latest.
The other 8 finalists next year? Brown, Greene and Harrison for starters, probably Dungy replacing Parcells as the coach to make the list. That leaves 4 – lets say two spots go to Eddie D and Modell again which leaves two more fresh names. Perhaps Zach Thomas, John Lynch or Steve Atwater.
For Paul:
2014 – Derrick Brooks, Marvin Harrison, Zach Thomas, Tony Dungy.
2015 – Junior Seau, Kurt Warner, Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Kevin Mawae, Ty Law, Edgerrin James.
2016 – Brett Favre, Terrell Owens, Darren Sharper, Alan Faneca.
2017 – Jason Taylor, Brian Dawkins, Hines Ward, LaDainian Tomlinson.
2018 – Ray Lewis and 99% certain Tony Gonzalez.
2018/19 Watchlist: Charles Woodson, Ed Reed, Steve Hutchinson, Randy Moss and Ronde Barber.
I’d also like to compile a list of those previously snubbed in the prelim lists so that perhaps some of us can send a letter to the Pro Football HOF in time for the 2014 nominations in September.
The following were somehow left off the 2013 prelim ballot.
RB: Corey Dillon
11,241 yds, 7 1k seasons, 89 career TDs
WR: Irving Fryar
851-12,785 with 84 career TDs
OL: Richmond Webb and Mark Stepnoski
Webb is a 4(2AP)/7/90s, Stepnoski 3(0AP)/5/90s
TE: Mark Bavaro – 2 time 1st team All Pro on a memorable Super Bowl team.
DL: Leslie O’Neal, Neil Smith, Keith Millard, Simeon Rice, Clyde Simmons.
Millard was 2nd team All Decade 1980s. O’Neal, Smith, Rice and Simmons were all All-Pros with 100+ sacks. O’Neal has 132.5 career sacks and 8 seasons with 10+.
LB: Pat Swilling 4(2AP)/5/90s, Greg Lloyd 3(3AP)/5/none, Hardy Nickerson 4(2AP)/5/90s
DB: Deron Cherry, Frank Minnifield and Carnell Lake.
Cherry is a 5(3AP)/6/80s. Carnell Lake, a 4(1AP)/5/90s and Minnifield 3(1AP)/4/80s
Anybody else? They’re clearly better than Stephen Davis, Jeff Hartings, Ken Harvey and Carl Hairston. 16 good quality players who deserve a prelim spot at the very least and one or two perhaps a step further.
I wonder if Jimmy Johnson will get consideration at some point. Johnson, Flores, and Seifert are the only three retired coaches to win two Super Bowls and not be in the Hall of Fame. Flores took over an established Raiders team that had just posted 14 consecutive winning seasons and was only a few years removed from the franchise’s first SB win under Madden. He finished his career with 5 consecutive non-winning seasons with both the Raiders and Seahawks. Seifert took over a fully loaded defending champion 49ers team that had already established itself as the team of the decade, but never had a winning season at Carolina; indeed his team got progressively worse.
Of the three, Johnson is the only one who successfully conducted a major turnaround, and his second stint at Miami saw him follow up an 8-8 start with three winning, playoff seasons. Of those three coaches, I’d say Jimmy Johnson should clearly be considered a cut above and probably at least next in line behind Dungy. One could even question the assumption that Dungy deserves to be next, since he failed to win a Super Bowl with his own turnaround job and inherited a great offense at Indianapolis, having only to upgrade the defense just enough to squeak the Colts over the top, though I figure voters will favor Dungy’s relative longevity and winning percentage.
Yeah, Boknows33, there were several tackles and centers on the prelim list less deserving than Webb and Stepnoski. I would have dropped some of those two or three Pro Bowl head scratchers and replaced them with those guys; maybe added G Nate Newtwon (6 Pro Bowls, 2 AP first team All Pro selections) too.
Operating on the assumption that TEs have traditionally gotten short shrift (might be changing now with the increased star power and hype they’re receiving), I would have added Jay Novacek to the two(!) TEs on the prelim list. Novacek (5 Pro Bowls, 1 first team All Pro selection) was the most productive receiving TE over the first half of the freaking decade, and was an underrated blocker. Anyone who watched the dynastic Cowboys play regularly knew how vital he was to making that offense go, and how much they missed him when injuries forced his early retirement. Unfortunately, he was heavily underused by a clueless Arizona club for his first five years and then ended up missing out on the inflationary passing stat explosion of the late 1990s, but being the best TE in the NFL for half a decade should still count for a lot.
ken Anderson is locked in as one of my senior nominees other one ill have to do some research
Thanks Rasputin.
I’ll add Newton and Novacek to my list.
No comments in support of Steve Atwater?
As far as BoKnows list for actually being a HOF I don’t see many deserving players. Of course I like Corey Dillon but I know he’s really on the bubble.
The rest: will they make and should they IMO
WR: Irving Fryar (no and I wouldn’t) Couple years with Dan Marino made him really shine. Never quite lived up to expectation coming out of Nebraska. Cut hand in kitchen in freak accident week of Super Bowl against Bears. The preacher was a very popular player and he played well long into his career. He makes the HOF of very good right by another Dolphin (for a while) TE Keith Jackson. Jackson had HOF talent but I don’t think he quite makes it . Ditto for Fryar. 851-12,785 with 84 career TDs
OL: Richmond Webb (yes and I would) likely to wait a good bit. Bruce Smith said he was the best he faced.
Mark Stepnoski (no way and I wouldn’t) career really tailed off. Webb is a 4(2AP)/7/90s, Stepnoski 3(0AP)/5/90s
TE: Mark Bavaro – (No way and I wouldn’t)
He was a NY legend who’s career was killed by injuries. 2 time 1st team All Pro on a memorable Super Bowl team.
DL: Leslie O’Neal ( no and very close but I wouldn’t) Consistently VERY good!! Are we saying 100 sacks is an automatic into the HOF? I don’t know. :)
Neil Smith (yes and I would). An excellent pass rusher who was cat quick for his size. He forced 30 fumbles and recovered 12. Over 100 sacks and IMO sealed HOF with Denver’s SB wins.
Keith Millard (no way and I wouldn’t) Very good! A couple sensational years. Mainstay in the middle for the Vikings. Short career by todays standards. Millard was 2nd team All Decade 1980s.
Simeon Rice ( yes and I would) Played along side Warren Sapp and was an important addition to Tampa Bay’s SB team.
Clyde Simmons (no and I wouldn’t) performance was too inconsistant and played a long time bouncing around from team to team. He had two stellar years with Reggie White and the best D in the League. O’Neal, Smith, Rice and Simmons were all All-Pros with 100+ sacks. O’Neal has 132.5 career sacks and 8 seasons with 10+.
LB: Pat Swilling 4(2AP)/5/90s ( yes – I wouldn’t) Part of a surperb LB corp. for Saints when they had little else. Rickey Jackson is in HOF and I believe Sam Mills the heart of the group will be next. Swilling will get in near the end of modern or as a Senior or not at all.
Greg Lloyd 3(3AP)/5/none (yes and I would but really close call) He was a high energy guy like Kevin Greene who hit very hard. I have some doubt though because I wonder if voters will look at other LB’s and vote no because they can’t justify separation. I’m thinking of Seth Joyner in particular. Joyner actually has a little better stats. I know we’re not suppose to rely (Bachslunch) on published tackles made. :)
Hardy Nickerson 4(2AP)/5/90s (no and I wouldn’t)
DB: Deron Cherry (no and very close but I wouldn’t) possibly makes it as a Senior?
Frank Minnifield (no and I wouldn’t ) formed great duo with Hanford Dixon for a few years but not HOF worthy.
Carnell Lake (no and I would) sensational athelete who starred in the Steeler secondary for many years with the great Rod Woodson. Was a Steeler favorite but played Safety so we know how that goes with HOF. All Decade 90’s but doesn’t necessarily have the resume of a HOFer. Still was a great player. Cherry is a 5(3AP)/6/80s. Carnell Lake, a 4(1AP)/5/90s and Minnifield 3(1AP)/4/80s
“Joe Flacco still has that slight potential of being a flash in the pan but he would have to drop off a cliff. I could swear the last two games I was watching Aaron Rodgers with the pinpoint precision. As good as he was, call me crazy but I thought Jacoby Jones could of been the MVP. I keep thinking about my Texans letting him get away. Speed like that is always good to have around.”
Jones had an argument for MVP. That is for sure. One receiving and kick return touchdown each. He doesn’t make that kick return, the 49ers make the biggest comeback in Super Bowl history.
I think Flacco still has something to prove. Anybody can catch lightning in a bottle. I think of David Freese for the Cardinals in 2011. True, he still had a solid 2012 but his numbers weren’t out of this world, per se. The way I see it, it’s Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers and then everybody else as far as quarterbacks are concerned.
Flacco is like Eli Manning after the Giants shocked the Patriots. It didn’t take until the very next season for Eli to make his first Pro Bowl. I think Eli is up there in terms of quarterbacks but he’s not one of the golden four either. Flacco is a proven winner now, but what would it say if he makes the Hall of Fame without a Pro Bowl or First Team All Pro?
“Of the three, Johnson is the only one who successfully conducted a major turnaround, and his second stint at Miami saw him follow up an 8-8 start with three winning, playoff seasons. Of those three coaches, I’d say Jimmy Johnson should clearly be considered a cut above and probably at least next in line behind Dungy. One could even question the assumption that Dungy deserves to be next, since he failed to win a Super Bowl with his own turnaround job and inherited a great offense at Indianapolis, having only to upgrade the defense just enough to squeak the Colts over the top, though I figure voters will favor Dungy’s relative longevity and winning percentage.”
Dungy still got to the NFC Championship game with Tampa and came very close against an historically great offense and did this on the road. Plus, the Colts made the playoffs every season Dungy was there.
As far as seniors go, I stay with Johnny Robinson as my #1 and Al Wistert as my #2.
That’s a great list Boknows34! I would also add:
QB – Boomer Esiason (He certainly has some weak credentials that hurt his case, but of the eligible modern-era QB’s, he’s the best in my opinion)
RB – James Brooks (4-Time Pro Bowler, tons of All-Purpose Yards), Mike Alstott (not really a FB, but he did make 6 Pro Bowls and 3 First-Team All-Pro teams), Eric Metcalf (One of the most versatile players of the Super Bowl era)
WR – Mike Quick (Had a short career, but was dynamite when he played…occasionally gets nominated but wasn’t last year), Andre Rison (Character concerns aside, scored the same amount of career TD’s as Irving Fryar in 5 less seasons)
TE – Keith Jackson (As Tony P mentioned, he’s borderline…but I think he belongs in the conversation). Considering how light the hall went on TE’s last year, you could also add Steve Jordan, Brent Jones and maybe Wesley Walls.
OL – The only guy I could add is Ruben Brown…overrated or not, 9 Pro Bowls deserves a mention.
DL – Michael Dean Perry, Ray Childress (They’ve been pretty inconsistent with nominating DT’s. While I’m not sure if these guys belong in the HOF, I think that being among the best DT’s of their era means that they belong on the preliminary list)
LB / DB – You guys covered the best guys not on there, I have no one to add.
ST – They have never inducted a punter, but it would be nice if they could consistently nominate 2-3 a year like they do with kickers. My current picks for the top 3 would be Sean Landeta, Rohn Stark and Reggie Roby.
Coach – As others have mentioned, George Seifert has won 2 Super Bowls. He might have stunk it up pretty bad in Carolina, but considering that he led San Fran to 8 years of 10+ wins in a row and won close to 2/3 of his games, he deserves better. When you add in the fact that every eligible coach that won a Super Bowl and had a sustained career is either in the Hall or was nominated last year, it makes his omission that much more glaring.
Perhaps it is just me, but I cannot get to excited or concerned about any of these players and adding another 30+ players to the preliminary list when they are clearly are not going to advance to the top 25. It just seems like so many of them are very good players and not HOFers. I know some people, perhaps including the players, might get some appreciation for being at least recognized for consideration for the HOF when they appear in the preliminary list, but beyond that I simply fail to see the point when at the end of the day of the 150+ on the list 125 will be eliminated in the first round very easily by the voters in their mail balloting. And I doubt anyone with a serious chance at the HOF is being forgotten about because they are not nominated to the preliminary list. I know it may just be me but the least interesting part of the whole HOF election process has always been the preliminary list since anyone can nominate anyone involved with pro football.
Great analogy Corey Flacco to David Freeze!
Ray Childress was awesome and I could based on the eyeball test but I don’t think he was at the top long enough. Still a solid player for Dallas. Very much like John Dutton who was part of a fearsome foursome in Baltimore in the 70’s
Mike Quick was excellent and one of my favorites but with all of the great WR’s I don’t think he has a chance.
James Brooks I’ve been a supporter for a while. One of the best little me to ever play RB. He could do it all!
Metcalf from my beloved Texas. Dynamite in a bottle. He’s a no but who’ll ever forget his TD run on MNF with the Browns. Maybe the best 5yd run ever. LOL His Dad Terry was exciting too. Son topped Dad!
Alstot – Sure didn’t realize his credentials were that impressive. I’d have to think he’ll get in but if I was picking I really don’t know.
Michael Dean Perry – I forgot about him but he was a great one. He was for a long time overshadowed by his big brother the Fridge Perry. If those tackle stats are close to right look at that five year period he has. Over 100 tackles one year for a DT!! I believe it because he was a terror. I think 30-40 is a decent amount. Warren Sapp’s best year was 47. LOL Perry had 100 more tackles in 3 fewer years in his career. Not quite the sacker he 35 fewer sacks with 61 which is still real good for a DT.. Should even things out and I hope he makes it soon. I think he will.
I agree on Ruben “Sandwich” Brown
Jordan and Jones were very good but I wouldn’t pick’em and neither will the voters.
Wesley Walker was one of the geatest deep WR’s I’ve ever seen. Still it’s the volume of WR. Doubt he gets in but I would. I believe he was legally blind in one eye which makes what he did remarkable.
No on the punters!! I believe the one in Oakland now will make it one day. Leckter?? Landeta was amazing for longevity! Like the energizer bunny.
Old George Seifert I could care less. LOL That would be a no. I give his some credit for not screwing it up. :)
If Boomer could of played more cosistantly yes. He certianly had the talent but he’s a maybe and a no. Maybe the voters throw him a bone for being an announcer too like Madden.
I hope my critiques are helpful to someone to understand these players better. LOL I’m not the greatest typist or speller as you can tell by all of my mistakes. :)
Oh, Wesley Walls? I was thinking Walker. LOL See what I mean. :) I don’t have think so with the scrutiny of TE’s and I wouldn’t.
Nate Newton I support and Novachek not. It’s the TE think. Jason Witten will make it and should.
It all depends on what you consider to be a truly borderline player for the HOF. Personally, I think it’s worth mentioning someone like a Neil Smith or a Deron Cherry and fighting to get them on the preliminary list even if that only involves mailing in a letter to the HOF. If you look beyond the top pass rushers Strahan, Haley and Greene who are in all likelihood going to be inducted soon, the next guys from the 90’s in line would be Smith and Leslie O’Neal. Neither of these players is currently a yearly member of the preliminary list and it’s arguable that if they were, they would get several votes toward being a semifinalist. Obviously since the list once omitted future HOFer Cortez Kennedy just before he made the semifinalist list, it is not foolproof.
Similarly, when it comes to Deron Cherry, he seems to have at least a decent HOF case with 6 Pro Bowls, 3 1st-Team All-Pros, a spot on the 80’s All-Decade team and 50 INT’s. The last several senior nominees at DB have all fit the same profile…they are a fresh case that has been completely overlooked by the modern-era committee, they have a lot of career INT’s and they have only borderline post-season awards. Cherry fits all three of these criteria, plus he has an all-decade team nod. I think that 25-30 years down the road, we may see him get a senior’s nomination just like Curley Culp or Dave Robinson. Again, getting him into the conversation is more than reasonable.
I’d argue that several of the players mentioned as snubs from the preliminary list would fit in around the 30th-60th best players on a preliminary list or as one of the best candidates at their positions. This would make them candidates to be semifinalists. Down the road, a Michael Dean Perry or a Hardy Nickerson might be the next Curley Culp or Dave Robinson that gets nominated as a senior.
I guess to add to that, the fact that players like Clay Matthews and Albert Lewis (who have made 4 Pro Bowls apiece) are sneaking into the semis has made me believe even more that some of these guys that are getting omitted may be closer to that top 25 than you think.
This is a bit unrelated to the current conversation, but there seems to be a push from several media members, especially Jim Trotter and Rick Gosselin who appeared on the HOF announcement broadcast, that non-players should have a separate vote from players. This is something that I’ve always believed should be the case, and it’s nice to see it getting some big press play this year. Trotter in fact wrote an article stating that this idea has been raised with the VP of the HOF so it must be getting at least some consideration from the hall itself.
Here’s a link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130202/pro-football-hall-of-fame-process/
Cortez Kennedy appeared on the 2006 list of preliminary nominees – the first year he was eligible as well as 2008. Sure it is always possible by error a player will be missed but not for too long, and it is not like we are talking about a player with the qualifications of Kennedy with many of these suggested additions, but a large number of players with a few all pro and less than five pro bowls. I agree that coming up with some major omissions and having them added to the 2014 preliminary list would be beneficial, but I am also seeing many very marginal names being suggested in these posts. Perhaps we should consider a minimum standard, such as start with all decade team members, then add players with at least 2 all pro (1st time) and/or minimum of 4/5 probowls and see what the list looks like number wise?
As to the seniors, also take a look at the table in Peter King’s MMQB column where he listed the amount of time candidates were debated for in 2012 and 2013 and you can clearly see the coaches/contributors create the longest discussions. Trotter has also suggested that given the experience with Modell and DeBartolo that they may not end up back in the final 15 next year or for some time.
I would have no problem if the bylaws were changed to allow for a maximum to 8 only if the 8th was one coach/contributor given a presentation followed by immediate yes/no vote (at 75%) as is the procedure for the 2 seniors who do not complete directly against the modern candidates. Perhaps this extension to 8 could be done every other year only. However, I would not like a coach/contributor only slot come at the expense of one of the two senior slots that Trotter also suggests.
From the long list of players Tony P. suggested, can best get behind:
–Pat Swilling at 2(2AP)/5/none. He and Karl Mecklenburg at 3(3AP)/6/none seem to be the best remaining MLB/ILBs of the 80s/90s. Unless I’m wrong, only Harry Carson and Mike Singletary are in the HoF at this position from these decades.
–Deron Cherry at 3(3AP)/6/none, competitive with the other safety snubs of the time still eligible such as Darren Woodson, Steve Atwater, Leroy Butler, and Joey Browner.
Greg Lloyd is pretty underrated but in a clump with OLBs who will probably just miss such as Cornelius Bennett and Pat Swilling — OLB is much better represented from the 80s/90s than MLB/ILB. Also true of Irving Fryar, who is more competitive as WR/KR than one night think — he’s hurt most by being not as good as WR/KR Tim Brown.
They could reduce the Senior pick to one a year once they make things right with a group of worthy men who keep grtting shut out. To me it would be really easy to decide on the names the fans have been kicking around for years. Take the damn so-called suspense out the decision before they are all dead! Poor Johnny Robinson must of thought he was getting in back in the 1980’s when he was on the cusp for 6 years. Same for Jerry Kramer, what he must be thinking with Dave Robinson’s selection ? I know what I’m thinking and it aint “G” rated.
Mentioned before that it would be cool if the Senior presentation was held the night before. It seems like their selection is anticlamatic compared to the big names who played more recently and why shouldn’t the modern’s have the day to themselves? I don’t know why the HOF seems so leary to change the process for the better?
Their must be more outside pressure to change than keep the status quo. I guess as long as the fans come in droves nothing will change. It’s got to hit them in the pocket book. That’s what’s happened to the baseball HOF. They have lots of problem which includes location.. Apparentley the have no inclination to move yet. I’d like to see them move it to St. Louis and even though the NFL HOF is fine in Ohio I wouldn’t mind it if it came closer to the middle of the country say Chicago.
Well the current pool of qualified senior candidates numbers at least 20 whereas the potential pool of coaches/contributors is currently perhaps 5 or 6, so I would like the system of nominating two seniors to stay in place for at least several more years, but would be agreeable to a separate election process for the coaches/contributors from both the modern and seniors.
Having been to HOF and enshrinement event numerous times over the years the HOF has made many changes to the event which has grown to a huge multi-day celebration. I think having the modern and seniors in the same ceremony is great in that it links the history to the more modern, and if held separately my concern would be the small crowd for the seniors only. The HOF has made many changes to the event so I do not believe they are resistant to change, just questioning whether a senior only event would get the same draw of fans.
There has been a huge growth in the attendance to the HOF and the enshrinement over the recent years having witnessed that personally. Some celebrations bring out more fans simply due to when big names are selected (just wait until Favre is elected!!) The HOF does have a traveling exhibit moving around the country but after the most recent $27 million renovation the HOF is staying right where it belongs in Canton Ohio. Pro football has been the biggest sport in the US for the last few decades and continues to be so, whereas baseball growth is slow or stagnant which will also impact visits to the baseball HOF (and the whole steroids mess and not electing a modern player in 2013 is not helping the baseball HOF at all!)
Paul said: “Well the current pool of qualified senior candidates numbers at least 20”
I can see at least possible cases for 50 easily, most of whom have never been finalists. That for me includes: Lavvie Dilweg (E), Verne Lewellen (B), Duke Slater (L), Ox Emerson (L), Al Wistert (L), Riley Matheson (L), Mac Speedie (WR), Billy Howton (WR), Billy Wilson (WR), Dick Stanfel (G), Duane Putnam (G), Dick Barwegan (G), Gene Brito (DE), Jimmy Patton (DB), Bobby Dillon (DB), Abe Woodson (DB-KR), Pete Retzlaff (TE-WR), Jerry Smith (TE), Del Shofner (WR), Lionel Taylor (WR), Art Powell (WR), Mick Tingelhoff (C), Jerry Kramer (G), Ed Budde (G), Walt Sweeney (G), Jim Tyrer (OT), Dick Schafrath (OT), Maxie Baughan (LB), Joe Fortunato (LB), Chuck Howley (LB), Larry Grantham (LB), Tommy Nobis (LB), Lee Roy Jordan (LB), Johnny Robinson (DB), Dave Grayson (DB), Bobby Boyd (DB), Eddie Meador (DB), Tommy Davis (P-PK), Tom Sestak (DT), Houston Antwine (DT), Earl Faison (DE), Harold Carmichael (WR), Harold Jackson (WR), Cliff Branch (WR), Drew Pearson (WR), Otis Taylor (WR), Claude Humphrey (DE), L.C. Greenwood (DE), Robert Brazile (LB), Randy Gradishar (LB), Lemar Parrish (DB-KR), Cliff Harris (DB), Louis Wright (DB), Lester Hayes (DB), Ray Guy (P), Kenny Anderson (QB), and Kenny Easley (DB).
And this list may not necessarily be complete. I think there’s plenty enough reason to have two Senior finalists for years to come. The Senior Committee just has to nominate good players and the voting committee has to have the brains not to refuse them.
great class all around for 2013
Yes Billy, I hope that the committee would consider Rick Casares. When Casares retired from the NFL after a 12-year career (1955–1966), he was the Chicago Bears’ all-time leading rusher, all-time rushing touchdown leader, and all-time rushing attempts leader, totaling 5,797 yards from scrimmage, 49 touchdowns and 1,386 rushing attempts. Only the legendary Walter Payton and Neal Anderson have since eclipsed those marks. He is one of the greatest players to ever play for one of the–NFL’s most storied franchises.
In 1956, Casares became only the seventh player to ever rush for over 1,000 yards, doing so in a 12 game season, totaling 1,126, only 20 yards short of the then-all-time single season record. He led the Bears to the NFL Championship game in 1956 and was part of the Bears 1963 NFL Championship team (this was pre-Super Bowl). He was a five-time Pro Bowler and was named to the first team All-Pro Team in 1956. He is part of the Chicago Bears Ring of Honor–their Hall of Fame. Many former Bears legends, including Mike Ditka, his teammate on the 1963 championship team, have called Casares “the toughest man to ever have played for the Bears” due to the ruthless way in which he ran–rumbling over and through defenders rather than around them and NEVER running out of bounds to avoid contact. Yet, despite all of these accolades, Casares is still not in the NFL Hall of Fame, passed over time and time again.
Perhaps it is because, while his numbers were among the most impressive in the NFL during his playing days, they are sub-par by today’s standards. Perhaps what Hall of Fame voters tend to forget is that Casares put up these numbers in 12 game seasons and against much stiffer competition; the league had only 12 teams at the time, meaning the talent was less watered down. Or, perhaps it is because Casares was never a flashy player, never the type of player to draw attention to himself.
He will be 82 on July 4th of this year.
Casaras had one outstanding season and a few other very good seasons, I think the lack of a sustained quality career and only one all pro team is keeping him from the HOF. Especially when you look at the best of the senior candidates and see so many other players with numerous all pro and pro bowl selections and all decade teams – much better qualifications then Casaras.
I think if any senior Bear should be considered, at this point the honor should go to Joe Fortunato. 3/5, 1950s All Decade team. His problem is the severe linebacker logjam. He wouldn’t be my first choice, although I wouldn’t object to his election, but I think of senior nominees who played for the Bears, he’s at the top for me.
what do you guys think of mick tingelhoff
Technically Chuck Howley was a Bear early in his career, so he’d get my vote for the Bear most deserving of induction.
Tingelhoff would be in my Top 10 Senior nominees.
Corey, agreed with you about Joe Fortunato being the most deserving Senior Chicago Bear candidate (if one doesn’t count Chuck Howley). Fortunato, Howley, Maxie Baughan, Larry Grantham (and perhaps Bill Forester) are arguably the most glaring OLB omissions from the 50s-60s.
The only other such player I can see a case for (and given Dick Stanfel’s problems being elected, he won’t be either) would be late 40s/early 50s guard Dick Barwegan. His career length and postseason profile are very close to Stanfel’s at 5(4AP)/4/50s in an 8 year long career, 3 of those years with the NFL Chicago Bears during his prime. He also played 4 years with the Baltimore Colts (2 in the AAFC and 2 in the NFL), plus one year with the old New York Yankees of the AAFC. I think he belongs in, but I don’t see how he’ll get voted in, sorry to say.
Howley only played one full season with the Bears so I doubt anyone would consider him the next deserving Bear to go into the HOF
My comment was a little tongue in cheek. I just saw an opportunity to turn the discussion back to Howley. He was technically a Bear though, if not a primary one.
True. Howley did play for the Bears and he absolutely belongs in Canton, but of senior candidates whose career was primarily with the Bears, Fortunato is first in line for me.
Here are my top 10 senior candidates for 2014:
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s
G – Bob Kuechenberg 2/6/70s-80s
C – Mick Tingelhoff 5/6/60’s-70’s
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s-80s
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s-80s
LLB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s
CB – Lester Hayes 1/5/70s 80s
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s
With Packers and Chiefs elected in 2013 I think both Kramer and Robinson will have to wait a few more years (in fact three 60s era Chiefs have been elected via seniors route in last several years among most from any one team). So I would go with Anderson and Howley, but could be any of the others which I would have no major problem with as I see them all, and a few more, as deserving.
Fortunato is the lone defensive player from the 1950s All-Decade Team not in the HOF.
Drew Pearson and Cliff Harris are the only two non HOFers to be named 1st team 1970s All Decade while Kenny Easley is the only defensive 1st teamer from the 80s All Decade Team not in Canton. Easley is now Senior eligible.
I would think that Hayes and Meador would have decent shots soon. I would agree with Paul, they just named a Chief and Packer, so I would find it hard to believe Kramer and Robinson go in this year. How about Banch/Pearson (too close to call) and Anderson.
To my understanding Drew Pearson has never received serious consideration by the seniors committee whereas Branch has been among the finalists discussed in recent years, so it appears Branch is closer to selection at this point. As to Pearson at this point two other Cowboys (Howley and Harris) appear closer with both considered by the seniors committee in recent years.
I agree with what others are saying, I doubt that a Chief or Packer gets nominated this year as a senior nominee.
I have to wonder if the WR logjam will weigh on whether or not the committee picks someone like Branch. In previous years this seemed to be an issue, but the hall did induct two DT’s (Sapp and Culp) this year. The same goes for Howley since Brooks is a likely first ballot inductee at OLB, and possibly at CB with Aeneas Williams on the brink of induction.
I’d personally love to see Tingelhoff and Harris get the nods next year. I think that Ken Anderson will eventually get nominated, and may have an advantage in the sense that modern-era QB’s tend to not sit on the brink of induction for extended periods; they mostly either get in within 3-5 years or never get seriously considered (Ken Stabler being the most recent exception to this rule).
I have no idea if this is true or not but it could explain the lack of senior nominees at WR and DE, and to a lesser extent on the O-Line over the past few years.
Tinglehoff to get ‘serious’ consideration.
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2013/2/12/3982398/mick-tingelhoff-pro-football-hall-of-fame
Tinglehoff certainly is in the mix having been in the final 15 of seniors considered in recent years, and he has a very strong profile. But when it comes down to a voting committee of 5 members, it only takes 1 to sway 2 others to get a player nominated, essentially meaning at that point all 15 finalists are in play as “serious” candidates.
I also wonder whether the large number of recent Vikings selected to the HOF may hurt his chances, but in his favor (along with a few other players) is that perhaps the recent run of defensive players, especially LBs in recent years (9 of the last 14 senior nominees have been defensive, including 4 LBs) could result in consideration for OL and DBs, or even QB Anderson and WR Branch – although I do agree that the continued backlog of modern WRs could be hurting Branch’s chances.
I would say that Tinglehoff has a good chance this year and certainly within the next few senior elections.
Agreed that Mick Tingelhoff seems to have been seriously in the mix for a while now among Seniors. And agreed that he’s very HoF deserving.
As far as which positions are “due” among those where needs-to-address exist, that’s hard to say.
Part of the reason they’ve been so focused on defensive players — there’s probably a very reasonable perception that defensive players historically get the short end of the stick compared to offensive players. And it’s no secret that Senior LBs, especially OLBs, have not gotten a fair shake from the 50s/60s/70s. Electing Robinson, Hanburger, and Richter has helped that problem a little, though more clearly needs to be done (Howley, Baughan, Fortunato, Grantham, Brazile, Gradishar, among others).
The finalists per year for Seniors when two were nominated by position have been: DT/LB, G/DB, 2 LBs, DB/RB, WR/DE, DB/pre-50s-back, G/TE, OT/coach, 2 pre-50s-backs, OT/WR. There have been no QBs, Cs, or special teams players nominated in that stretch, which indeed might help Tingelhoff, as well as Ken Anderson or Ray Guy.
And I’m not sure a Viking has ever been nominated as a Senior — and there may have been at least a limited element of “taking turns” among teams factoring in when deciding on Senior finalists: Chief-Oiler/Packer, Lion-Redskin/Steeler, Redskin/Ram, Lion/Bronco, Cowboy/Falcon-Eagle, Chief/Cardinal, Brown/Lion, Cowboy/Raider, Giant-Dodger/Akron Pro, Eagle-Raider/Cowboy. The Lions and Cowboys have had the most representation, and the Raiders and Redskins and Eagles have also seen more than one nominee. Several teams have not had a turn in this stretch, though, so that may be less of a factor. I’d be surprised if the Senior nominees are thinking about a balance of modern and Senior enshrinees, though I could be wrong there.
Interesting discussion.
I also wonder whether the chances for any remaining pre 1960 players have also passed? The one factor that I always try and keep in my mind is how these decisions are made by such a small group of voters, only 9 people vote to get the finalists, then only 5 of those voters actually meet to discuss and select the senior nominees. So the roles of individual voters and interactions among a few can sway the final selections. Plus the two former players selected to advice the voters changes each year, so the position and era they played and who they played against can be an important factor in those final discussions as they can be strong advocates or opponents to certain finalists.
so it looks like mick tingelhoff is a frontrunner to be a senior nominee for 2014 in regards to that post there
Paul, you may be right that it’s going to be tough for pre-60s players to become Senior candidates from here on in. I’ve seen chatter over at the Pfraforum website, for instance, suggesting that could be the case. That would be a shame, too, as there are a number of other players from that period who probably should be in: Duke Slater, Lavvie Dilweg, Verne Lewellen, Ox Emerson, Al Wistert, Riley Matheson, Dick Stanfel, Dick Barwegan, Bobby Dillon, and Mac Speedie definitely qualify, and several other players played a significant portion of their careers in the 50s with a bit of 60s overlap such as Billy Howton, Billy Wilson, Duane Putnam, Jimmy Patton, and Joe Fortunato.
Chris given that he is among the recent 12 finalists means he is a serious candidate, but I am not so sure I would take the word of one writer (who is not even a HOF voter or on the seniors selection committee) as indication that Tingelhoff is a frontrunner in 2014. Sure he is deserving in the mix as one of the likely 12 finalists, and may even be selected, but the mere mention by one sportswriter is not that significant given that I suppose there are other writers, including actual HOF voters, who would also be advocating for their local senior candidates.
I agree bachslunch and as time goes by and more “recent” senior players get added to the pool and then get serious consideration for selection (like players from the late 70s/early 80s such as Anderson and Branch) it is unfortunately only going to get harder to get pre 1960 players selected given the high quality of players already and soon to be in the seniors pool from the 1960s and 1970s.
Tingelhoff gets the Jack Butler treatment from me. More than deserving, should have been in decades ago; but I will not be 100% satisfied until Johnny Robinson is nominated and elected.
Johnny will get his time, but with recent Chiefs elected and the voters apparent disdain for the Safety position, it looks like you both may have to wait a few more years. Personally he would near the top of my list, but then again there are also many other deserving seniors as well.
tingelhoff is still definitely a frontrunner though despite the report on him
I agree Chris, he is among several frontrunners. I was just questioning that the word of one writer (and not a HOF voter) alone made him the frontrunner, when in my view he is among several perhaps a dozen all with an equally good chance. Would it surprise me to see him selected? No, but then again given the unpredictably of these selections I would also not be surprised to see any of another several players selected. Hard to predict the decision of 5 people.
antoher guy who needs to get considered is chuck howley
when do they announce the presenters for the upcoming hall of fame class?
Didn’t we go through all this last year? Some players have already mentioned their presenters (Jerry Jones for Larry Allen), the list will be announced when complete sometime in the summer before the event. I do not think most people, even those attending, really care too much about the presenters especially now that all they do is appear in a video and help uncover the bust. Unlike when Steve Young’s father took over 1/2 hr just to introduce him! I was there in the sun 90F heat!
wut teams should play in the upcoming hall of fame game?
Well look for one or both teams reflecting the 2013 HOFers, and teams that have not played the game in recent years. So perhaps Baltimore vs Tampa Bay? Minnesota vs Kansas City?
Regardless, the teams should be announced at the upcoming annual league meeting, Mar 17-20, along with the games for the first weekend of the 2013 regular season.
i’m looking at vikings at cowboys for the hof game there pauly
Well the Cowboys just played in the game in 2010 so doubt they would be back so soon, whereas the Ravens have never played (and Ogden is their first primary contributor into the HOF), Tampa Bay, Minnesota and KC have not played in over 10 years. I am thinking Baltimore versus Tampa Bay/Minnesota.
You mean the first primary contributor since they changed their name to the Ravens. A while back I actually heard an on air analyst praise the Ravens for winning a Super Bowl within their first few years of existence. It was Orwellian! Sorry Cleveland fans, but, Tagliabue’s lame pr stunt aside, the Baltimore Ravens ARE the classic Cleveland Browns. The Ravens were a long established team, not a recent expansion team. The new Browns are the expansion team. You can’t overturn history on a whim. There’s an organic continuity to teams that infuses them with meaning, and that’s a good thing. It means we aren’t just cheering for laundry. Otto Graham played with guys who played with Jim Brown, who played with guys who played with Ozzie Newsome, who played with Bernie Kosar, who played with Vinnie Testaverde, who played with Ray Lewis, who has now passed the torch to Joe Flacco. That’s the story of one, continuous team unfolding over the years. Heck, Ozzie Newsome is even the GM of the Ravens, HIS old team. I know it’s painful for Cleveland fans, but other cities like Houston and for that matter Baltimore have seen beloved, tradition rich teams pick up and move. You can’t erase that pain without throwing out too much good. Pretending the new Browns are magically the same as the old Browns is dishonest and shallow. It undermines the integrity of the sport.
It’s what also ticks me off about the Penn State punishments. The current and future sanctions are one thing, though the football players did nothing wrong, but, unless cheating is somehow discovered, Penn State won those past games fair and square, and Joe Paterno is really the winningest coach of all time. You can’t overturn historical truth by edict in rush of herd driven, self righteous political correctness.
With that I’ll step down from my soapbox.
Well the NFL and HOF consider the Ravens as a new team so like it or not regardless of your opinion he will become the first primary contributor of the Ravens in the HOF.
Sure, Paul. We are at war with eastasia. We have always been at war with eastasia.
Still, it was awfully nice of the Cleveland Browns to let the expansion Baltimore Ravens have their owner, assets, and entire roster to help get the new team get off the ground. No other expansion team has been the recipient of such generosity.
What about the St. Louis Rams and Indianapolis Colts? At least the city of Cleveland and fans got to keep their history. Interesting that the original Colts band and players “stayed” to support the Ravins in Baltimore.
No, by being coddled and pandered to the Cleveland fans were enabled in infantile delusion while history itself was undermined. I’m not sure what your point is regarding the Rams and Colts. There’s nothing wrong with local stars supporting a new local team, but the league isn’t pretending the Colts’ records belong to the Ravens.
The Ravens were not an expansion team but transfer as were the Colts and Rams it was just that after the anger from Colts and Rams fans NFL decided to keep history in Cleveland so the team could be reestablished there. And by the time the Ravens won their first SB five seasons after the 1996 move many of the Cleveland players and coaches were gone and the Raven stars drafted by that team. The only real strong link that remained was Ozzie Newsome.
Do you really believe that fans in St.Louis identify with LA Rams history and players from another city? Same for the Colts. Teams are linked forever to their home cities and fans moving them away breaks much of the legecy. And why the hate directed at the Browns fans as they did nothing to deserve losing the original Browns or the mess that has been the current Browns?
Not hate, just disappointment. As I said, it was a PR move to minimize fan anger, but a myopic one. That 2000 Super Bowl champion Ravens team certainly had more ties to the old Browns than the new Browns did. By trying to whitewash and alter history at whim with an edict like that, the unwitting implication is that none of these team histories or records actually matter too much. If one can be stripped from a team and handed to another at will for PR reasons then there’s not much point in trying to find meaning in any of this.
As for the other transplanted teams you mentioned, history doesn’t just exist for the sake of a team’s current fans, much less its local fans. Nomadic or not, the league, analysts, historians, and many fans most definitely acknowledge the histories of the Rams and Colts. The Cardinals are frequently described as being one the original NFL teams, despite being based in Chicago back then and moving multiple times since. The people actively involved since 1920 have obviously changed, but the current Cardinals have an acknowledged connection that traces back to the NFL’s founding.
Names and colors have often been reused by different teams, so I’m fine with the true expansion team calling itself the “Browns” and using the same colors. Perhaps that would have been enough to salve the worst of Cleveland fans’ hurt feelings. Regardless, it should have stopped there.
Titans LG Steve Hutchinson will announce his retirement from the NFL on Tuesday.
5 1st team All-Pros
2 2nd team All Pros
All Decade 2000s
He has an excellent HOF chance.
actually I view keeping the legecy and history in the city of a long historical NFL such as the Browns more respective of the past then teams taking that city tied history and name to another city. The history of the LA Rams now associated with St.Louis makes no sense and is certainly no way to maintain the former teams players city and fans legecy in a completely different city.
There’s a difference between teams and cities. The NFL is composed of teams, not cities. As you admit, in every other case when a team moves it takes its official history with it. No, the Cleveland deal was about pandering, not respect for history.
I agree with the comment on Steve Hutchison. Future HOFamer!
Last time I checked NFL teams were affiliated with a city, in fact have the name of the city. So yes I do think there remains a very strong identify of a NFL team to their city. The majority of fans who come to the home games, corporate and media coverage and sponsorship, community involvement, and highest % of local TV market are associated with that city. I disagree in that keeping the history and legacy in the original city is a respect for the history, especially concerning the rich local legacy tied to a team like the Browns. Sorry but I do not, nor do most fans in my view, associate Johnny Unitas with the Indianapolis Colts. I do not believe keeping the Browns name in Cleveland was pandering to the city and fans but respect for the history and strong community support for the Browns (except by the city government) who continued to support the team with attendance for decades. Personally I hope that a precedent was established for the movement of any future historical NFL teams.
Jim Brown’s records and achievements belong with the Cleveland Browns; Johnny Unitas deserved to have his records and achievements belong to the Baltimore Colts. That is the only true way to respect history.
Ah yes, the cities of New England and Arizona are both lovely this time of year. BTW, it’s impressive how the city of New York steps up and plays twice as many games as any other city does. What endurance! Remind me again which QB holds the New York passing yardage record….is it Phil Simms or Joe Namath?
No one’s denying that teams are, at least a for a time, affiliated with a city, state, or region. That fails to dispute any points I made, namely that the league is composed of teams rather than cities (made obvious with the New York example), or that in the long history of the NFL moving teams have always taken their records and history with them. At least you seem to concede that the Cleveland farce would represent a clear break from well established precedent. Perhaps if you put more thought into this you’ll realize that creates a consistency problem.
Your emphasis on fan sentiment indicates that you’re confusing sensitivity to feelings (pandering) with respect for history (aka, the truth). No, Paul, the classic Cleveland Browns are now the Baltimore Ravens. It’s not the way I want it to be, but it’s the organic fact of the matter, regardless of what ex post facto edict a bureaucrat decides to hand down. Otherwise you’re reducing the word “legacy” to something so arbitrary and malleable that it has diminished meaning at best. Destroying the very concept of legacy to spare the Dog Pound’s feelings is short sighted and ultimately counterproductive.
As you are well aware the teams were at one time called the Boston Patriots and the Phoenix Cardinals, besides whether it is a city, region or state we are still talking about a place based identity for every NFL team. And you also know that the reason there are two New York teams is because of the NFL/AFL merger.
Also the Ravens were not the first NFL team to be moved yet the original team records and heritage were left behind (lets see if you can figure that one out).
It is only your opinion or view (and not a point or fact to dispute) that keeping the Cleveland history in place because a new Browns team was to be created is a farce. Would it have more of a farce to have the new Cleveland Browns not have their own history and legacy? I am not talking about pandering to fans and a city but having respect for history by having the Browns history stay in the city where the Cleveland Browns would continue to exist. I am talking about a legacy of a team kept in place and not moved all over the country resulting in no connection to its past, mistakes the NFL and other leagues have done all too often (but not always).
Again who associates the career rushing leader for the Baltimore Ravens as Jim Brown – does that not strike you as arbitary and counterproductive when considering the history of the teams and the league?
Sorry but the only consistency problem I see is trying to explain that the records of Johnny Unitas reside with the Indianapolis Colts.
And no the classic Browns are the current Cleveland Browns and not the Ravens as all their history and records staying in Cleveland because the Browns were going to continue in Cleveland. It is only you that are insisting the old Browns are in Baltimore, easily ignoring that the team, league and HOF histories do not support your view.
Nothing you said disputes my points or the fact that the NFL is composed of teams, not cities (or regions).
“Also the Ravens were not the first NFL team to be moved yet the original team records and heritage were left behind (lets see if you can figure that one out). ”
Is it a secret? Silence doesn’t help your case. If you’re referring to the 1941 Eagles/Steelers “swap” though, those were different circumstances. It wasn’t a case of a team completely up and moving, with nothing left in the old city. It was an owner to owner deal that left a big chunk of each team in their same city, and essentially amounted to a massive personnel swap. Even then it was a controversial event that resulted in numerous lawsuits, and was an extreme historical aberration.
By contrast, the Browns moved their entire roster to Baltimore. Vinnie Testaverde was the Browns’ QB their last year in Cleveland, and QB their first year in Baltimore. Michael Jackson led the team in receiving as a Brown in 1995 and as a Raven in 1996. The contract structures were carried over, and Ray Lewis was drafted with an extra first round pick procured while the team was still in Cleveland. Obviously the new, expansion Browns didn’t start playing until 1999, so there was no direct carryover there.
You’re still making the mistake of viewing “history” as an emotional sentiment to be pandered to, rather than respected by telling the truth, good or bad. Unitas is still in the Colts’ record books, so I’m not sure what your point was. Of course the old Baltimore players aren’t celebrated by Indianapolis residents with the same enthusiasm that post move players are, but even their current website recognizes the team’s long history… http://www.colts.com/team/history.html….as does your beloved HoF website. http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/teams.aspx
No, no matter how much Paul loves Big Brother, 2 + 2 = 4, not 5, and the classic Cleveland Browns are now the Baltimore Ravens.
In regards to tradition, legacy, consistency, and setting a precedent, before the Cleveland Browns has any other sports franchise left a city but did not take the name and heritage with them because a replacement franchise was already awarded to stay in that original city to keep the name and history there? The NFL made a commitment to have a new Cleveland Browns team in place when the Raven were created from the existing Browns franchise – had that ever happened before?
I already replied to your last post yesterday, but it says my comment is awaiting moderation (because it contains a couple of links?), so I’ll give it another day or so to post before trying it again without the links.
When the 1952 Dallas Texans folded, the franchise and players became the 1953 expansion Baltimore Colts, BUT the records and history of the 1952 Texans (and their immediate franchise predecessors) did not go with the 1953 Baltimore Colts (the NFL franchise history of the Colts starts in 1953). So the Ravens were not the first NFL franchise to take over a previous team, including all the players, but leave the records and history behind.
But those records and history don’t apply to the Dallas Cowboys either, nor does the Colts’ history apply to the Baltimore Ravens. The situation was different because the Dallas Texans actually went out of business and folded (the last NFL team to do so). They didn’t just pick up and move. What assets remained (including uniforms/colors) were taken over by the league and given to the expansion Baltimore Colts as a competitive boost. It’s less historically egregious to declare that a team isn’t the same as a past defunct team than to pretend that an entirely new expansion team like the 1999 Browns somehow is the same as a team that simply picked up and moved years earlier and is still in operation. Also, not that such things should necessarily be controlling, but for the record, by my count 11 players on the 1953 Colts had been Dallas Texans, less than a third of those who played that year. By contrast, at least 34 players on the 1996 Ravens had been Browns, a majority of those who played. And while Belichick had been fired, many of the assistant coaches he hired were retained by Baltimore. Of course the owner was the same.
If history can be changed by lawsuit or bureaucratic whim then it doesn’t exist in any meaningful way.
And considering Jim Brown as a Baltimore Raven is not also changing history on a bureaucratic whim?
Why would anyone figure that the current Colts history would apply to a different Baltimore team when the Colts left Baltimore years before the Ravens with no deal in place when they left to have a new team in Baltimore? Again the reason the Browns history was left behind because a new Browns team was planned with the move of the original to Baltimore – there was a team in the city which would have the name Browns to protect that heritage in place
The history of the 1952 Dallas Texans does not apply to the 1960s Dallas Cowboys ( or the AFL 1960s Dallas Texans) because neither are direct connections to the 1952 Texans whereas the 1953 Baltimore Colts were formed directly from the 1952 Texans Players and uniforms, yet the NFL allowed the Baltimore Colts their own new and unique history. My point was that the transfer of the 1996 Browns to Ravens was not the first to leave the history behind.
Correction:
“If the Ravens had taken the Browns history, considering Jim Brown as a Baltimore Raven is not also changing history on a bureaucratic whim?”
“And considering Jim Brown as a Baltimore Raven is not also changing history on a bureaucratic whim?”
No, he should be called a classic Brown, since that what he played as, but his team changed its name to the Ravens. That’s just organic reality. No lawsuits or artificial ex post facto edicts required. Teams change their colors and names sometimes.
“Why would anyone figure that the current Colts history would apply to a different Baltimore team when the Colts left Baltimore years before the Ravens with no deal in place when they left to have a new team in Baltimore? Again the reason the Browns history was left behind because a new Browns team was planned with the move of the original to Baltimore – there was a team in the city which would have the name Browns to protect that heritage in place”
The “deal” wasn’t worked out until after Modell initiated the move and the new Browns didn’t start up until four years later. Even then it was only under pressure from lawsuit and league office panic, since Modell had originally planned on retaining his team’s official history. At least you seem to acknowledge that location isn’t everything, and that the NFL is obviously composed of teams, not cities. Two teams playing in the same city doesn’t make them the same team.
“The history of the 1952 Dallas Texans does not apply to the 1960s Dallas Cowboys ( or the AFL 1960s Dallas Texans) because neither are direct connections to the 1952 Texans”
Despite them playing in the same cities? See? You’re learning.
“whereas the 1953 Baltimore Colts were formed directly from the 1952 Texans Players and uniforms, yet the NFL allowed the Baltimore Colts their own new and unique history. My point was that the transfer of the 1996 Browns to Ravens was not the first to leave the history behind.”
And my point was that the Dallas Texans folding represented a clear break in that continuity that didn’t exist with the Browns’ move. I also pointed out that most of the original Colts were unconnected to the Texans, while most of the original Ravens had been Browns. Such things aren’t necessarily controlling, but it’s another difference worth pointing out. It’s fair to say the Colts have ties to the Texans, and in fact back to the Dayton Triangles, but it’s also fair to say they were a new, distinct team. The Ravens weren’t, except cosmetically.
“At least you seem to acknowledge that location isn’t everything, and that the NFL is obviously composed of teams, not cities”
Where did I make that acknowledgement? I never said or implied that two teams playing in the same city doesn’t make them the same team, I have been stating that every team is identified with a place (city, state and region) by with a geographic name. And yes throughout the history of the NFL, and other professional football leagues, different teams have been in the same city but at different time periods and often different leagues with no continuous history, such as the disconnect between the 1952 Dallas Texans (with their own unique history) and the later NFL Dallas Cowboys and AFL Dallas Texans also with their own history. But the fact remains that a the Brown history was left behind because there was a “home” for it – a team and city that would continue that history, regardless of the three season gap from 1996 to 1999. It is not about playing in the same city, but continuation of a legacy in that city where the history was established in team and name.
And the “deal” in keeping the original Browns in Cleveland was made as a condition of the NFL approval to accept the Baltimore Ravens, although I am very aware that it was preceded by his initial announcement months earlier and the resulting lawsuits. But the forming of the Ravens resulted in the preservation of the Browns in Cleveland.
You can attempt to make all the minor differences, but my point about the 1952 Dallas Texans to the 1953 Baltimore Colts was to show you that NFL history had an example earlier than the Cleveland Browns/Baltimore Ravens where the newer franchise assumed players but not the heritage, 1996 was not the first time in NFL history for that to occur. The fact that Texans players, including two HOFers, went to the Colts in 1953 is significant, but the that the history of their original team the 52 Texans did not, shows there was a link but still the heritage was left behind – just like the 1996 Browns/Ravens situation.
“No, he should be called a classic Brown, since that what he played as, but his team changed its name to the Ravens. That’s just organic reality. No lawsuits or artificial ex post facto edicts required. Teams change their colors and names sometimes. ”
We are not talking about a team simply changing their colors or nickname, but actually leaving the city and local fans behind and breaking that heritage and history. Does anyone really think that the history and heritage of the Baltimore Colts, the greatest game in NFL history, one of the greatest players, is well served with them now part of the Indianapolis Colts?
We are debating over two different approaches to handle the heritage when a team changes cities, there are pros and cons to both, but I do not believe that it is a fraud, pandering or a stunt to keep the Browns name and history alive in Cleveland, but an attempt by the NFL to preserve the history of a great NFL team and city after the mess that was the Baltimore/Indianapolis move.
Dallas v Miami is the Hall of Fame Game on August 4th.
cowboys and dolphins in the 2013 hall of fame game
Well I guess old Jerry has some pull after all. I am really surprised that the Cowboys returned to the game so soon and even more surprised at Miami given they have no strong connection to the 2013 inductees. But I do understand that some teams and coaches like playing the extra game, others not so much. I did get some hint earlier this week when Jerry indicated he was pulling for the game so his new defensive staff would have another preseason game to work on the shift to the 4-3 defense. Combined with the 50th anniversary and the major HOF renovations, Canton and the HOF will be a madhouse this year as fans come for those events, plus I suspect the Cowboys are a pretty big draw for Larry Allen and now the HOF game. I have been to the event numerous times over the years (but not the game), including in 2010 and it was pretty crazy with fans then, not so sure I will do so this year as I am not a big fan of crowds and long lines.
Paul said: “I never said or implied that two teams playing in the same city doesn’t make them the same team,:
What?!?! So you do think the Jets and Giants are the same team, and that the defunct Dallas Texans and Cowboys are the same team, as are the old Colts and the Ravens? Or maybe you just misworded that….
“And yes throughout the history of the NFL, and other professional football leagues, different teams have been in the same city but at different time periods and often different leagues with no continuous history, such as the disconnect between the 1952 Dallas Texans (with their own unique history) and the later NFL Dallas Cowboys and AFL Dallas Texans also with their own history. But the fact remains that a the Brown history was left behind because there was a “home” for it – a team and city that would continue that history, regardless of the three season gap from 1996 to 1999. It is not about playing in the same city, but continuation of a legacy in that city where the history was established in team and name.”
But that was an artificial compromise motivated by PR reasons, not a reflection of reality. BTW, an AAFC Baltimore Colts team played from 1947-1949, and then joined the NFL in 1950 before folding a year later. The new Baltimore Colts presumably took the name (and used the same marching band) to honor the memory of that team, but it wasn’t considered the same team.
“And the “deal” in keeping the original Browns in Cleveland was made as a condition of the NFL approval to accept the Baltimore Ravens, although I am very aware that it was preceded by his initial announcement months earlier and the resulting lawsuits. But the forming of the Ravens resulted in the preservation of the Browns in Cleveland.”
No, it resulted in the real Browns changing their name to the Ravens, and a desperate, engineered farce by a panicked Tagliabue that undermines history.
Since we agree that the Baltimore Ravens obviously weren’t an expansion team (at least you said as much earlier), what were they called in 1995?
“You can attempt to make all the minor differences…”
No, I listed major differences, including the Texans folding (unlike the Browns), totally new ownership (unlike the Browns), a mostly new roster (unlike the Browns), I believe a totally new coaching staff (unlike the Browns), etc., with the clear break caused by the folding being the most important distinction. You can keep repeating yourself and we can keep going around in circles, I guess.
“We are not talking about a team simply changing their colors or nickname, but actually leaving the city and local fans behind and breaking that heritage and history. Does anyone really think that the history and heritage of the Baltimore Colts, the greatest game in NFL history, one of the greatest players, is well served with them now part of the Indianapolis Colts?”
Nope, but they are part of the same team, and recognized as such, just like all the other times a team has simply picked and moved (without folding and having its assets reabsorbed by the NFL first). The truth isn’t always pretty, but doing away with it causes far worse problems in the long run.
“What?!?! So you do think the Jets and Giants are the same team, and that the defunct Dallas Texans and Cowboys are the same team, as are the old Colts and the Ravens? Or maybe you just misworded that….”
Perhaps my wording was not clear, a team consists of a name and identity tied to the city and a nickname, both of which give the team their unique heritage. Take the nickname and move to another city in my view breaks that heritage (e.g. Colts from Baltimore to Indianapolis).
This was your original statement: “At least you seem to acknowledge that location isn’t everything, and that the NFL is obviously composed of teams, not cities”
I disagree that I made any such acknowledgement, my whole point was that teams are tied to cities as part of their history and legacy. Yes teams move and in many cases cities have lost teams only to gain new teams in future years but without connections to the past (some times with the reuse of the nickname, e.g. 1952 Dallas Texans and 1960s Dallas Texans – same city same nickname but completely different teams and heritage).
It is an unfortunate reality how all too often teams take the name and history to a new city without any reference to the original (the Houston Oilers become the Tennessee Titans) rather then simply leave the name and history behind, sometimes never to be used again but preserved as heritage, and start as a new history in a new city. It is simply in my view, wrong.
However, the Browns situation is also very unique because it was a condition of the NFL approval to move the team in early 1996 that a new Browns team would be formed in Cleveland so the name and legacy would stay there as there would be a “place” for it with a new NFL team to take them.
Check the timeline as all Modell did in the fall of 1995 was state his intention to move the Cleveland Browns to Baltimore so he had no name just a plan. The move was not approved by the NFL owners until the spring 1996 with the requirement that the Browns name and history stay behind, thus he needed to come up with a new name which was selected as the Ravens later in the spring of 1996.
We can disagree that “doing away with it causes far worse problems in the long run”, and in case of the Browns the intent to keep a Browns team in the NFL meant keeping the history there was in my view in the best interest of the rich community legacy of the Browns in Cleveland.
Clearly we can agree to disagree on this issue, I was just pointing out that there is another view counter to yours that also has some merit. I may disagree with you but can understand and respect your view, I would hope you would do me the same.
Tagliabue imposing that “condition” in the middle of the move process was an artificial imposition. History was stripped and transferred by decree. The team already existed. It moved to Baltimore. The 1999 Browns had no more connection to the classic Browns than the 1953 Colts did to the 1950 Colts (which folded after that season), or than the 1960s Dallas Texans did to the 1952 Dallas Texans (which folded after that season).
“It is an unfortunate reality how all too often teams take the name and history to a new city without any reference to the original (the Houston Oilers become the Tennessee Titans) rather then simply leave the name and history behind, sometimes never to be used again but preserved as heritage, and start as a new history in a new city. It is simply in my view, wrong.”
By all too often you mean every other time in NFL history a team has picked up and moved without folding first and having its assets reabsorbed by the NFL? Cleveland got special treatment. If only that case wasn’t a glaring inconsistency. But wait…..I know! Since history apparently doesn’t exist in any meaningful way, let’s just start a campaign to get Goodell to declare ex post facto that the Titans aren’t really the old Oilers, the Indianapolis Colts aren’t the Baltimore Colts, the Kansas City Chiefs aren’t the 1960s Dallas Texans, and the Cardinals aren’t really one of the original NFL franchises. Not sure if the Bears should still be considered such; after all, they were originally called the Decatur Staleys. How much weight does a name carry in your book? If it’s not everything then I guess we can just assign the old histories to the teams current playing in those cities, regardless of current name and colors. The various old New York City franchises can divide their histories equally among the Jets and Giants, or those two and all past teams can simply merge their records. I’m still not clear on how you feel the NY thing is supposed to work since you incomprehensibly deny that the NFL is composed of teams, not cities.
“Clearly we can agree to disagree on this issue, I was just pointing out that there is another view counter to yours that also has some merit. I may disagree with you but can understand and respect your view, I would hope you would do me the same.”
I’ve always understood it perfectly, I sincerely feel for the Browns (and Oilers, and the other fans who have been screwed), and I can respect someone advocating the view, but no, I love history too much to respect the view itself. You’re saying that a team boils down to just colors and a name. I think it’s much more than that. As much as I wish Modell hadn’t did what he did, I think a team is a much more real entity than that. It changes over time, evolves, but there’s an organic continuity that gives meaning to things like franchise records in the first place. Paul Brown actually said and did things that influenced players in a team context. So did Otto Graham and Jim Brown. Their words and deeds were passed down consciously or unconsciously by players in subsequent years like ripple effects, impacting Ozzie Newsome, Vinnie Testaverde, and others. New additions added to the mix over time but there’s still a direct, team oriented connection there between Joe Flacco and Otto Graham. That’s not true with the new Browns. There’s no direct continuity there. The only connections are cosmetic or external to the team itself (fans).
Maybe that’s all the Dog Pound needs to be happy: being able to dress up and continue their personal traditions by cheering for a team called “the Browns” that wears the same colors as the old team did, while a lawyer pats them on the head and assures them that a deal has been struck “officially” making this the same team they’ve loved all their lives. But I place too much value on true history to be swayed by such stunts, or to forget what truly happened. Instead of pretending everything is hunky dory, my response is to oppose any attempt to put Art Modell in the HoF. In the mean time, the classic Browns are now the Baltimore Ravens. Instead of an expansion team, I would have worked with others to figure out a way to bring my team back.
“Tagliabue imposing that “condition” in the middle of the move process was an artificial imposition. History was stripped and transferred by decree. The team already existed. It moved to Baltimore.”
In the fall of 1995 Modell had only announced his intent to move the team in the fall, the deal was not complete until approval by the NFL owners in the spring at which time they also announced that a Cleveland Browns team would form and that the history and legacy could stay behind because their was a home for it. I am not ever sure he ever referred to the name as the Baltimore Browns (and I know the nickname Ravens was selected in a local contest months after the team move was approved).
“Since history apparently doesn’t exist in any meaningful way, let’s just start a campaign to get Goodell to declare ex post facto that the Titans aren’t really the old Oilers, the Indianapolis Colts aren’t the Baltimore Colts, the Kansas City Chiefs aren’t the 1960s Dallas Texans, and the Cardinals aren’t really one of the original NFL franchises.”
This is not a valid comparison as in these cases you are referring to going back years and decades later to make these changes. The Cleveland decision was made at the time the move was approved and because there was a plan to have a Browns team in Cleveland. The situation and timing of the Cleveland issue was very unique to time and place.
“You’re saying that a team boils down to just colors and a name.” No I have been saying that a team boils down to a continual heritage and legacy of a place, fans, name and history that should if at all possible be maintained there. In the case of Cleveland the opportunity presented to have any NFL team remain in Cleveland allowed for that heritage to continue. Its the continuation of city, name and heritage that could be protected, not trying to go back and link teams in the same city with gaps of years and decades. And I already explained that the two NY teams are a function of the AFL/NFL merger – also intended to maintain those respective team heritages. No where did I ever state that one city could only have one team, the point again is maintaining the heritage represented by the city, name, colors, and history of that team in that place. I have never suggested merging histories of different teams from the same city spread apart by years or decades.
No I think the Cleveland fans can take great pride in their long and continuing support of the Browns and that the legacy and history of that team in their city has been maintained. The classic Browns have remained in Cleveland.
“In the fall of 1995 Modell had only announced his intent to move the team in the fall, the deal was not complete until approval by the NFL owners in the spring at which time they also announced that a Cleveland Browns team would form and that the history and legacy could stay behind because their was a home for it.”
No, he had a signed contract with Baltimore in 1995 and by early 1996 personnel were already moving. It was publicly known that Dec. 1995 would see the last Browns home game, and angry fans physically tore up the stadium. None of that matters though, because, timing aside, the history decision was an artificial decree, not a reflection of reality. The history affected wasn’t just 1995, but everything going back a half century. The later “deal” with Cleveland was forced by lawsuits, protests, and league office pressure motivated by the bad PR. The naming contest was held afterwards. Meanwhile, Ozzie Newsome and the holdover scouts and assistant coaches talk about how they simply continued the program and way of doing things set up by Belichick in Cleveland, eventually culminating in a Super Bowl win. Watch the 1995 Cleveland Football Life episode.
“This is not a valid comparison as in these cases you are referring to going back years and decades later to make these changes. The Cleveland decision was made at the time the move was approved and because there was a plan to have a Browns team in Cleveland. The situation and timing of the Cleveland issue was very unique to time and place.”
Hogwash. Some of those examples were only several years apart. What’s your arbitrary cut off point? The 1953 Colts were born only three years after the 1950 Colts, a shorter time than the four years it took for the new Browns to start up. The Colts used the same marching band as the old Colts but no one considered them the same team. The NFL didn’t even know whether the new Cleveland team would be an expansion team or a relocated team. They didn’t decide on an expansion team until 1998. It requires a very shallow view of history to pretend that the new Browns are the same team as the old Browns.
“And I already explained that the two NY teams are a function of the AFL/NFL merger”
And I explained that the fact those teams weren’t merged underscores the obvious truth that the NFL is composed of teams, not cities. Same with the LA Rams and Raiders.
“No I have been saying that a team boils down to a continual heritage and legacy of a place, fans, name and history that should if at all possible be maintained there.”
Except for the name all those things are external to the team itself. And that’s just it: it’s apparently possible to declare anything. The question is does the declaration truly change reality, or does it just appease upset fans? No, the Baltimore Ravens are the classic Cleveland Browns. A team is more than a name, uniform colors, and fan emotion.
Tell me which of these looks like the true expansion team, and which looks like the long established franchise?
Since 1999
Cleveland – 2 winning seasons, 12 losing seasons, 1 playoff season, 0 Super Bowl wins.
Baltimore – 10 winning seasons, 3 losing seasons, 8 playoff seasons, 2 Super Bowl wins.
I think it’s fair to say that you associate history with local fans, and I associate it with the team itself. I agree that teams should stay put and remain loyal to fans. We both want certain things to happen, but while I root for those things to actually happen, you’re satisfied if a decree is produced merely declaring that it happened.
“No, he had a signed contract with Baltimore in 1995 and by early 1996 personnel were already moving. It was publicly known that Dec. 1995 would see the last Browns home game, and angry fans physically tore up the stadium. None of that matters though, because, timing aside, the history decision was an artificial decree, not a reflection of reality. The history affected wasn’t just 1995, but everything going back a half century. The later “deal” with Cleveland was forced by lawsuits, protests, and league office pressure motivated by the bad PR. The naming contest was held afterwards. Meanwhile, Ozzie Newsome and the holdover scouts and assistant coaches talk about how they simply continued the program and way of doing things set up by Belichick in Cleveland, eventually culminating in a Super Bowl win. Watch the 1995 Cleveland Football Life episode. ”
But the fact remains that Modell did not receive permission from the NFL to actually move the team until Spring of 1996 and that approval required keeping the Browns name and heritage in Cleveland.
“Hogwash. Some of those examples were only several years apart. What’s your arbitrary cut off point? The 1953 Colts were born only three years after the 1950 Colts, a shorter time than the four years it took for the new Browns to start up. The Colts used the same marching band as the old Colts but no one considered them the same team. The NFL didn’t even know whether the new Cleveland team would be an expansion team or a relocated team. They didn’t decide on an expansion team until 1998. It requires a very shallow view of history to pretend that the new Browns are the same team as the old Browns. ”
My cut off point is maintaining the lineage of history which was possible in Cleveland in 1996 as the move was conditional upon a Browns team being located in Cleveland, regardless of whether it was an expansion or relocated team, the name and heritage of the Browns would continue in Cleveland because there was a “home” for it. In my view it is not a shallow view of history to keep the continuous link of heritage of the Browns in Cleveland from past through to present.
“And I explained that the fact those teams weren’t merged underscores the obvious truth that the NFL is composed of teams, not cities. Same with the LA Rams and Raiders.”
The New York teams were not merged because the conditions of the NFL/AFL merge allowed for both NY teams to survive with their heritage preserved, it had nothing to do with considering that the NFL is composed only of teams and not cities. The LA Rams and LA/Oakland Raiders reflect again what I have viewed as a lack of appreciation of heritage tied to cities to allow teams to leave cities, sometimes repeatedly, without a respect for the history tied to their location in a city.
“Except for the name all those things are external to the team itself. And that’s just it: it’s apparently possible to declare anything. The question is does the declaration truly change reality, or does it just appease upset fans?”
No, the Baltimore Ravens are the classic Cleveland Browns. A team is more than a name, uniform colors, and fan emotion.”
Yes a team is a history and heritage tied to the place, city, fans where that history was created that includes the name, colors, etc… but is much much more. Jim Brown rushed his way into the history of the Browns and NFL in Cleveland, in the cold, in the “mistake by the lake”, not associated with the Baltimore Ravens. When I think of the Browns I think of the Cleveland Browns and the continued history and linkage to the past. When I think about the heritage and history of the Tennessee Titans, Earl Campbell bashing through the steel curtain does not come to my mind.
“Tell me which of these looks like the true expansion team, and which looks like the long established franchise?
Since 1999
Cleveland – 2 winning seasons, 12 losing seasons, 1 playoff season, 0 Super Bowl wins.
Baltimore – 10 winning seasons, 3 losing seasons, 8 playoff seasons, 2 Super Bowl wins.”
Baltimore has a great history and heritage of their own, earned under that name, city and legacy. And we could take any teams over any period of time, expansion compared to established franchise, and find successful and non-successful examples of both, some expansion teams have had great success some very poor, and there are plenty of examples of very successful long established franchises (Packers and Giants) and very poor ones (Lions). So I fail to see what point you are trying to make.
And how about this one:
Cleveland Browns, established in 1946
League championships (8),
AAFC Championships (4)
1946, 1947, 1948, 1949
NFL Championships (pre-1970 AFL–NFL merger) (4)
1950, 1954, 1955, 1964
Conference championships (11)
NFL American: 1950, 1951, 1952
NFL Eastern: 1953, 1954, 1955, 1957, 1964, 1965, 1968, 1969
Division championships (13)
AAFC Western: 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949
NFL Century: 1967, 1968, 1969
AFC Central: 1971, 1980, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989
Playoff appearances (28)
HOFers (17)
That is a history and heritage that was worth preserving.
“I think it’s fair to say that you associate history with local fans, and I associate it with the team itself. ” Not just the local fans but the time, events, context and place that history was created. The history of the Cleveland Browns is tied to the Cleveland Browns, not the Baltimore Ravens. Jim Brown created history and played for the Cleveland Browns, not the Ravens.
“I agree that teams should stay put and remain loyal to fans. We both want certain things to happen, but while I root for those things to actually happen, you’re satisfied if a decree is produced merely declaring that it happened.”
It was not a decree that the Cleveland Browns actually created history in Cleveland as the Browns, that is actually how it happened.
But also you treat history as based only on absolute fact when it is often interpretative. History is often decreed and the result of decisions made that sometimes does not always relate well to the truth and facts in the matter, often upon later reflection and examination (for example, as the expression goes “in war history is defined by the winner”). Even in the history of the NFL declarations, decrees and interpretations have been made about events, for example how the league was first formed. Any historian will tell you that recorded facts, evidence can form a view of history that is also often shaped but other perceptions and influences. History, and our view and understanding of it, is rarely truly accurate but shaped by many different forces, and often results in a final view of an event in history or our interpretation of it. It is rarely ever that simple nor accepted by all.
One could argue that stating that the Baltimore Ravens history extends back to include the heritage of the original Cleveland Browns is also simply a decree and alternative view of history, as if the team records of the Ravens should list Jim Brown as their leading career rusher.
“But the fact remains that Modell did not receive permission from the NFL to actually move the team until Spring of 1996 and that approval required keeping the Browns name and heritage in Cleveland.”
But that “fact” has never been in dispute and is irrelevant, since it implies Modell and the other league owners have the power to shape time and space and attach a half century history to a brand new team that wouldn’t exist for another four years as part of a PR motivated settlement.
“My cut off point is maintaining the lineage of history which was possible in Cleveland in 1996 as the move was conditional upon a Browns team being located in Cleveland, regardless of whether it was an expansion or relocated team,”
Read what you just wrote again. “A” Browns team. Regardless of whether it was an expansion or relocated team. It was a name and city LOOKING for a new team, even if it meant annihilating a hypothetical relocated team’s history.
“The New York teams were not merged because the conditions of the NFL/AFL merge allowed for both NY teams to survive with their heritage preserved, it had nothing to do with considering that the NFL is composed only of teams and not cities.”
I doubt it ever even occurred to anyone to suggest merging the Jets and Giants since the NFL is a league of teams, not cities, and there have been plenty of other cases of teams moving to new cities or multiple teams sharing a city. Look at the LA Rams and Raiders.
“And we could take any teams over any period of time, expansion compared to established franchise, and find successful and non-successful examples of both, some expansion teams have had great success some very poor, and there are plenty of examples of very successful long established franchises (Packers and Giants) and very poor ones (Lions). So I fail to see what point you are trying to make. ”
Actually expansion teams generally do poorly for a long time. I don’t know that any expansion team in the modern era has had the success of the Baltimore Ravens. Of course, the Ravens weren’t a true expansion team. The new Browns were. Established teams often play poorly too, but in this case the stark divergence highlights the reality of the situation.
“That is a history and heritage that was worth preserving.”
Pretending history is so malleable that Modell and PR conscious league lawyers can meet in a room, completely strip it away, and give it to a new team doesn’t preserve anything; in fact it undermines the very concept of history.
“It was not a decree that the Cleveland Browns actually created history in Cleveland as the Browns, that is actually how it happened.”
True. And then that team moved to Baltimore and changed its name to the Ravens.
“One could argue that stating that the Baltimore Ravens history extends back to include the heritage of the original Cleveland Browns is also simply a decree and alternative view of history, as if the team records of the Ravens should list Jim Brown as their leading career rusher.”
They should. The Titans recognize Warren Moon as their all time leading passer. Name, color, and edict aside, the 1996 Ravens were clearly the same team as the 1995 Browns.
“But also you treat history as based only on absolute fact when it is often interpretative. History is often decreed and the result of decisions made that sometimes does not always relate well to the truth and facts in the matter, often upon later reflection and examination (for example, as the expression goes “in war history is defined by the winner”). Even in the history of the NFL declarations, decrees and interpretations have been made about events, for example how the league was first formed. Any historian will tell you that recorded facts, evidence can form a view of history that is also often shaped but other perceptions and influences. History, and our view and understanding of it, is rarely truly accurate but shaped by many different forces, and often results in a final view of an event in history or our interpretation of it. It is rarely ever that simple nor accepted by all.”
As my argument illustrates. I believe the “official” NFL decree is a preposterous denial of what really happened. I don’t deny that other people can interpret things differently, or, like you, attach more meaning to location than to the team itself, but I’ve stressed what I believe are the long term negative consequences of such views. The more malleable history becomes, the less useful and meaningful it is. The very concept of objective truth starts to fade away, hence my Orwell references. Even a system that consistently tied team’s records to locales, as opposed to aberrationally doing it once, would undermine the concept of “team”.
I think I view a team as having a more concrete existence than you do. I see it as like an organism, with a continuity that transcends the fans, colors, name, and locale of the day. The classic Cleveland Browns were an entity, and that entity now operates in Baltimore under the name “Ravens”.
Paul, Rasputin – We get it, you both have opinions, neither of you is going to convince the other one to change. Can we drop it now? Get back to some modern football discussion? I promise when another team gets ready to move to a new city, we’ll put up a new post for you guys to renew the debate…
Tony Gonzalez and Ed Reed are coming back next season while Brian Urlacher has played his final down as a Bear and is looking for a new job. Will Urlacher find someone willing to pay what he feels he’s worth or should he call it a career?
2018 HOF eligible:
Ray Lewis
Steve Hutchinson
Possible retirements?
Brian Urlacher
Randy Moss
Ronde Barber
… and possibly Charles Woodson.
how about london fletcher?
I would like to see Tony Boselli have his case heard once Pace, Jones, Shields are elected. His resume is very similar to HOF lineman, Dwight Stephenson.
Stephenson had 5 Pro Bowls, was a 4-time 1st team All Pro and a 1980s All Decade selection. He played 8 seasons, with 87 starts and retired at 30.
Boselli had 5 Pro Bowls, was a 3-time 1st team All Pro and a 1990s All Decade selection. He played 7 seasons with 90 starts at played his last game at 29.
What’s really impressive is that Boselli faced much stiffer competition for All-Pro honours at tackle than Stephenson had at center. The three years Boselli was All-Pro the other 1st team tackles were Larry Allen, Jon Ogden and Orlando Pace – two 1st ballot HOFers and a future HOFer. Roaf (HOF) and Jones (a HOF lock) were also competing for honours. Boselli finished his career at age 29 with the same number of 1st team All Pros as Roaf and Pace – 3. Ogden and Jones had 4.
Stephenson’s honours came after Mike Webster’s best years and before Dermontti Dawson hit his prime.
If Boselli had been born 10 years later and was drafted in 2005 instead of 1995 he’d be 1st team All Pro every year.
Jason Witten has more receptions than anyone in NFL history through age 30, and almost 200 more than Jerry Rice at that age.
http://www.footballperspective.com/record-watch-can-jason-witten-catch-jerry-rice/
Breaking Rice’s record is a long shot, but either way this underscores Witten’s greatness.
At this point, I’m a believer Jason Witten is a HoF-er as well. His compiling numbers alone clinch it, especially as he’s a TE doing what he has done.
Witten is only 296 receptions short of Marvin Harrison for 3rd all-time, while Reggie Wayne (968) needs two more good seasons to move ahead of Harrison, his former teammate with the Colts. With Andrew Luck as his QB, Wayne just needs to stay healthy to move into the Top 3.
That leaves Witten (806), Andre Johnson (818), Wes Welker (768) and Larry Fitzgerald (764) as players who should someday also threaten to overtake Harrison (1,102) into the Top 5. Witten and Johnson could do it by the end of the 2015 season. Fitzgerald’s numbers have suffered with the lack of consistency at QB for the Cardinals, otherwise I think he could’ve someday challenged Rice’s 1,549.
Well, looking back at my comment a few posts above from March 21, Barber retired earlier this month and now news is breaking Brian Urlacher has announced his retirement.
He finishes his career with 8 Pro Bowls, 4 1st team All Pros, 1 second team All Pro, a DPOTY award in 2005 and a first team selection for the 2000s All Decade Team with Derrick Brooks and Ray Lewis. Urlacher now joins Lewis as eligible for the Class of 2018. Will Randy Moss be next?
predictions for 2014:
michael strahan
charles haley
will shields
andre reed
aeneas williams
senior canidates;
jerry kramer
randy gradishar
No love for derrick brooks?
Chris – That’s a very solid class and I like both your seniors picks as well. Up until yesterday I agreed with you on 4 of your 5 modern era selections. Aeneas Williams got as far as the Last 10 for the Class of 2013 but I had Derrick Brooks instead becoming the second Buc in consecutive years to be a first ballot HOFer.
However there are reports today that Walter Jones will be eligible in 2014, one year earlier than expected. Jones is a guy I’ve always considered in the same class as Ogden and Allen, who both went first ballot this year.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/22994666/pro-football-hall-of-fame-predicting-the-2014-class
”The Seahawks left tackle was a nine-time Pro Bowler and made first-team All-Pro four times. Jones wasn’t suppose to eligible for the Hall of Fame until 2015, but the Hall recently ruled that because Jones spent his final season in 2009 on injured reserve, he would be eligible a year earlier in 2014.”
http://www.seahawks.com/news/articles/article-1/Walter-Jones-eligible-for-Hall-of-Fame-in-2014/bf288b18-6fd4-4310-9e69-1c9e36b85a91
”The Hall will call Walter Jones a year earlier than expected.
The Seahawks’ dominating left tackle will be eligible for the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2014, rather than 2015, the Hall has determined. Jones’ final season with the Seahawks was 2009, but he spent the entire season on injured reserve so his five-year waiting period for Hall of Fame consideration began a season ahead of the anticipated timeline.”
The debate between Jones (9/7, 2000s team) and Shields (12/8, 2000s team) is going to be an interesting one. I am not so sure how one can claim that Jones is a deserving 1st year eligible selection, when Shields is on the ballot at the same time and for the 3rd time in 2014 as they seem to me to be pretty close in qualifications. I could see a division of voters unless someone (and the voters) has a good reason to place one over the other. My thinking is that since Shield has been in the final 15 twice already he may be the next OL elected with Allen and Odgen now clear of the ballot and Jones (like Roaf and McDaniel in previous years) having to wait another year.
At this point I am sticking with: Brooks, Strahan, Haley, Reed and Shields as the modern selections – nice mix of positions, offense and defense.
I went to the ceremony this past Saturday. It was great. Hopefully the seniors will get it right and nominate Johnny Robinson.
Predictions for 2014 class:
Derrick Brooks
Michael Strahan
Walter Jones
Jerome Bettis
Will Shields
Aeneas Williams is completely deserving but I feel he’s been overlooked and had an under the radar career.
I also think at least one senior is going to be elected as well.
Hopefully they finally nominate Chuck Howley.
Last year’s Senior nominees were announced August 22.
I just emailed five members of the Senior Committee asking to nominate Robinson. Hopefully they will consider and do the right thing.
With the election of Culp (KC) and D Robinson (GB) in 2013, I do not see the seniors nomination committee selecting either J Robinson (KC) or Kramer (GB) in 2014, preferring to draw from the senior candidate pool players from other teams.
That is what I was thinking, but I just would hope that there are better choices than Culp and Robinson.
What effect do you think the changes to the Pro Bowl might have on future Hall of Fame contenders? I think they might make Pro Bowl numbers a bit more reliable if they’re now conference-agnostic.
This updated list correct (not all retired players but those likely to be finalists and/or elected at some point):
2014 – Derrick Brooks, Walter Jones, Marvin Harrison, Zach Thomas, Tony Dungy
2015 – Junior Seau, Kurt Warner, Orlando Pace, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Kevin Mawae, Ty Law, Edgerrin James.
2016 – Brett Favre, Terrell Owens, Darren Sharper, Alan Faneca.
2017 – LaDainian Tomlinson, Jason Taylor, Brian Dawkins, Hines Ward
2018 – Ray Lewis, Randy Moss, Ronde Barber, Steve Hutchinson.
Please check that list, any additions?
Paul, the only addition I’d make is Brian Urlacher in 2018. The rest of your list is identical to mine. There are of course a few others but I don’t think any of them have a realistic HOF chance.
So, the next 5 Classes up to and including 2018 will have a maximum of 25 modern era HOFers. Adding Urlacher to Paul’s list leaves us with 26 new candidates for induction. When you add the 10 returning finalists from 2013 that’s 36 names fighting for 25 places between 2014-18. There may also be one or two of this year’s semi-finalists who are on the fringes of becoming an annual finalist. Or even perhaps a candidate who will make a sudden breakthrough like Ed Sabol did in 2011.
2019 may also see a few more HOF locks such as Champ Bailey, Charles Woodson, Ed Reed and Tony Gonzalez so competition will continue to be fierce every year.
Thanks and in looking at the list I think the number of first time selections will only be one or two each year and several of those listed may end up with waits of five or more
When you look at the 2013 list of semi-finalists there are 3 candidates where the clock is really starting to tick before they become Senior candidates.
2018 will be the last year on the modern era ballot for Roger Craig and Joe Jacoby. A year later it’s Karl Mecklenburg.
Two recent finalists have less than a decade to spare. Charles Haley has until 2021 and should be fine. Kevin Greene’s last year on the ballot is 2022.
Am I am thinking that there may be many fewer 1st time elected then many would believe, given how many equal or better players have had to wait in recent years.
2014 – Derrick Brooks (1st yr), Walter Jones (2-3 yrs), Marvin Harrison (5+), Zach Thomas (5+), Tony Dungy (?)
2015 – Junior Seau (1st year), Kurt Warner (2-3 yrs), Orlando Pace(2-3 yrs), Isaac Bruce (5+), Torry Holt (5+), Kevin Mawae (?), Ty Law ?), Edgerrin James (2-3 yrs).
2016 – Brett Favre (1st year), Terrell Owens (5+), Darren Sharper (?), Alan Faneca (?).
2017 – LaDainian Tomlinson (1st year), Jason Taylor (2-3 yrs), Brian Dawkins (?), Hines Ward (5+)
2018 – Ray Lewis (1st year), Randy Moss (2-3 yrs), Ronde Barber (5+), Steve Hutchinson (?).
oh yea and 2018 Brian Brian Urlacher (2-3 yrs?)
Of course determining the timing of election for any of these future players will ultimately depend on the mix of candidates in the list of 15 finalists each year and the limited room within the 5 slots for modern players. But it appears for 2014 to 2018 the pool of candidates within any year 15 finalist list is going to continue to be pretty deep, creating debate, competition and surprises among those elected each of those years. However I was surprised when applying an attempted standard for 1st year elections (based on recent elections) that is appears the number of 1st elections in 2014-2018 is not going to be that large.
Oh and as we discussed the last few years, look at the back up that is going to result at WR starting in 2014 (Reed, Brown, Harrison) and then growing to total of as many of 5 by 2015 (or 4 is WR is elected in 2014), 5 by 2015, 5 or 6 by 2016, 5-7 by 2017 and 6 or more by 2018 – unless multiple WRs get elected each year from 2014-2018, which given recent trends for WR elections seems unlikely. Even at one per year could take until at least 2021 to elect them all!!! (assuming they all get elected as some like Bruce and Holt could be waiting 10 years+)
Last year’s 10 finalists would certainly like to see Paul’s predictions come true. That would allow 4 of them to join Derrick Brooks in the Class of 2014. Strahan would definitely be my other pick on defense and with the next Super Bowl in New York I really can’t see him being denied the opportunity to toss the coin before SB XLVIII.
Aeneas Williams could also make it 3 on defense as there’s no backlog at his position. That’s in contrast to two positions on offense where the vote might be split; WR (Reed and Brown) and OL (now that Jones is eligible alongside Shields). Certainly adding Walter Jones to the 2014 ballot has thrown the cat among the pigeons. Might Shields might be pipped yet again by an elite OT?
As things currently stand, I’m confident Brooks and Strahan will be elected in 2014 with at least one WR (probably Reed) and one OL (Shields or Jones). The 5th spot could go anywhere: Bettis, Williams, Haley or a 2nd WR/OL.
I agree the WR backlog is going to be brutal and I don’t envy the task facing the voters. Even with the outside chance that two be elected next year, there will still be at least 3 names in 2015. It’s far more likely there’ll be 4 instead. Holt and Bruce will have to wait their turn. They’re in for a long wait.
I agree, the 10 remaining finalists from 2013 include players like Reed, Haley, Shields and Bettis who have been on the final 15 ballot for several elections now and without any strong 1st time candidates, except Brooks, four of them are looking good for 2014. I think Reed has an advantage over Brown and with Jones and Shields so close in creds, I see voters moving Shields ahead first given that he has been on the ballot and debated already. With Humphrey now in the mix as a DE, I am starting to wonder if that will give an edge to Williams or Bettis over Haley so three DE are not elected in 2014.