With the class of 2013 enshrined in Canton, the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s senior committee Wednesday got started on naming its class of 2014.
Ray Guy, the Oakland punter who earned seven Pro Bowl nominations, three First Team All Pro awards and spots on both the team of the 1970s and the 75th anniversary team, was joined by Atlanta defensive end Claude Humphrey, a six-time Pro Bowler who was All Pro twice in his 13 years.
Guy has been a finalist seven times. He is bound to be the more controversial of the two candidates because he is a punter. Supporters say his ability to boom high punts with long hang time reduced potential returns and allowed the Raiders to play a field position game previously unseen in the NFL. Detractors point to a low net average and say guys like Tommy Davis or Jerrel Wilson were equal or better to Guy.
Humphrey, a three-time finalist, is an oft-mentioned name on this site. Though he was just All Pro First Team twice, his Pro Football Reference page also indicates he won AP All Conference honors several additional times.
Of the 20 candidates nominated since 2004, when the committee started picking two rather than one former player to consider, 16 have been enshrined. But Humphrey is one of the four who wasn’t, having been voted down as a senior candidate Guy and Humphrey automatically advance to the last day of voting, where their names will be considered in a yes or no vote along with the five finalists selected by the entire Hall of Fame committee.
The senior process was instituted in 1972 to ensure that players out of the game for more than 25 years who were worthy of induction did not go overlooked once their modern era eligibility expired.
“Our selection process is extremely thorough,” says Joe Horrigan, vice president of communications/exhibits for the Hall of Fame in a statement on the Hall’s website. “This step is so very important because despite the thoroughness of the overall selection process, the seniors committee serves the vital role of making sure we don’t overlook a legitimate candidate. It assures that we go back and re-examine the merits of a player who, for whatever reason, may not have been given ample opportunity to be considered.
Zoneblitz.com readers have long debated their feelings on candidates from the past. Many have expressed that the veteran’s committee is important but that it doesn’t always do a great job of selecting the MOST deserving candidates. It’s just a guess, but I’m predicting this duo is not going to change their minds.
An informal poll posted at the site lists Mick Tingelhoff, Jerry Kramer, Chuck Howley, Al Wistert and Johnny Robinson among the candidates they’d most like to see considered. One of the all-time controversial Hall of Fame snubs, Kramer was considered by the senior committee in 1997 but ultimately did not receive the necessary votes.
Personally, I’m a believer that Humphrey should have made it in during the last senior proceedings. Guy is an interesting case. While his hang time often did change field position and games, I’m not sure he’s got the most compelling case of a Raider whose modern era eligibility has expired. I’m mystified that wide receiver Cliff Branch has not been enshrined. I also think Lester Hayes has a more compelling argument. Ken Stabler may be more compelling, as well, and I know Dave Grayson has supporters on this site.
That said, the Hall is woefully lacking in acknowledgement of the game’s all-time best special teams players. So I will cast a yes for induction for both of these players while at the same time arguing that the committee has found two worthy candidates but failed to find the two BEST seniors to consider for induction.
Please share your thoughts below.
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WOWWWWWWW never saw that coming!!! Give the Seniors Nomination Committee credit for a bold and risky selection, hope one or both can get past the full committee in early February, as it should make for some lively debates in that room, pray that we do not end up with no seniors elected as that certainly can not help case for continued nomination of two senior candidates via a separate process.
Wow. The first three votes are for great job, good job but could have been better and terrible job. I’m intrigued by the divergent views here. Let’s hear your thoughts on why…
I agree, this is a huge surprise! With Guy being a punter, and Humphrey having recently been voted down as a senior’s candidate, it’s safe to say that it will be a lively debate in February. This is the first time in awhile where I’m really not sure if either senior candidate will be inducted.
All things considered though, these were good (though very risky) choices. I’d put both players in my top 20 snubs list for sure. I think the committee did a solid job this time.
I don’t understand why you would pick Humphrey again so soon, unless new information came about. Isn’t time for somebody else when there are so many guys waiting?
These guys arguably deserving, but the order is out of whack. Chuck Howley should have been in sooner than either of them. This seems like back room politics every year. I have no confidence in this process whatsoever.
I tend to agree with Andy here “So I will cast a yes for induction for both of these players while at the same time arguing that the committee has found two worthy candidates but failed to find the two BEST seniors to consider for induction.” I also believe that there were better candidates, but can accept Guy ahd Humphrey as worthy nominees. My biggest worry is the risk that the full HOF selection committee could vote one or both down – which as I have stated before is a real concern we should have for its impact to the whole senior nomination process if that were to occur. Especially in regards to Guy as the 80% support needed could be a high level to reach given the likely resistance to special team players including the first Punter to be considered for election.
There is obviously a power play on resubmitting Humphrey. While I believe he is probably HOF worthy, he has already been turned down for one reason or another. And what new information has come up on his career that puts him ahead of another guy to get his chance?
To the point everybody is making here is that they senior writers should put the “no-doubters” in the room first and revisit the people that may not get supported later. If these 2 guys get turned down, the senior committee has failed in my opinion.
Clearly, Humphrey getting denied the first time has annoyed somebody who wants to win that battle.
I understand why they put Guy up, to see if special teamers are HOF worthy or not. If Guy gets turned down, then the seniors would be making a poor choice by putting similar special teamers up in the future.
Humphrey is not the first senior to be turned down only to be nominated again later (see Bob Hayes), so yes someone or group within the five members of the seniors nomination committee who voted today wanted to press that fight again. And yes Guy is clearly a test intended for the full committee forcing them to discuss and vote yea/nea on a punter. It is very obvious the five members today are picking a fight and willing to go to bat over these players, knowing very well that they face a battle with the full committee and the risk of having one or both not elected. 1997 was the last time no senior was elected, and since two senior nominees were selected starting in 2004 at least one has been elected.
Paul.
I was just about to make the same point about Bob Hayes and was on the pfhof website having a look at the history of Seniors Candidates.
http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2005/1/1/senior-nominees-1972-2013/
There are another two names alongside Hayes who have been voted down and then elected in later years.
Henry Jordan 1989, then 1995.
Lou Creekmur – 1980, then 1996
Dick Stanfel and Marshall Goldberg have twice been nominated and voted down. Jerry Kramer was the Seniors nominee in 1997.
I give props to the Senior Committee here. Ray Guy was not my first choice but I have no doubt he belongs. The man should have been in before and I am glad he is now getting his chance.
Certainly that is going to be quite the debate but I cannot dispute it was very bold of them to do so. I vote yes to Ray Guy and other special teamers. If he gets elected, I think the landscape of the Hall of Fame is going to be changed.
As far as the Humphrey thing goes, I don’t have a problem with him being in, but they should’ve just voted him in in 2009. I would’ve liked to have seen someone new, but it’s better than Curley Culp and Dave Robinson, that’s for sure.
I think that the reason chuck howley is not in is because of the same problem jerry Kramer has too many players from pne championship team
Then why was Dave Robinson voted in for the class of 2013?
Let’s look at the Hall of Famers from that Super Bowl VI Cowboys team.
Roger Staubach
Lance Alworth
Mel Renfro
Bob Hayes
Rayfield Wright
Bob Lilly
Forrest Gregg
Mike Ditka
Herb Adderley
Ok, nine Hall of Famers, but when you think of Lance Alworth, do you think of the Cowboys? What about Herb Adderley? Forrest Gregg? Mike Ditka? Only five of those nine Hall of Famers are generally seen as Cowboys. The others made their mark with different teams. The Chargers for Alworth, Lombardi’s Packers with Adderley and Gregg and the Bears with Ditka.
So I don’t think it’s that.
I think it is corey
Well in that era the Cowboys played in two NFL championship games, then two Superbowls, winning one; and have 5 primary contributing players already in the HOF
Of course in the same era of the 1960s, the Packers won five NFL championship games plus two SBs, and have 11 (!!) primary contributing players already in the HOF.
So perhaps overrepresentation is a problem for both Kramer and Howley, but appears much more so for Kramer and he also continues to be passed over while other Packers from that era, perhaps last qualified are still getting elected (Robinson, Jordan). Again I along with many others fail to understand the apparent disregard for considering Kramer.
I do think that with Howley consistently included on the recent list of senior candidates considered (however having not seen the 2014 list) he will in the coming years get selected. Could be that with the election of 6 Cowboys since 2006 (of course from different eras) including 2 from his era and both as senior candidates (Hayes, Wright) a little Cowboys fatigue may have entered the senior selection process. Hopefully he gets a chance soon.
Paul makes a good point about the recent Cowboys to be elected as Seniors. I think we’ll get round to Howley and Cliff Harris eventually, but it’s understandable if the Committee want to look at other teams instead.
If we use the same basis that nobody from the Packers or Chiefs were going to be named this year following the selection of Curly Culp and Dave Robinson, then perhaps we can rule out Tommy Nobis, Cliff Branch and Ken Stabler next year, though Stabler wasn’t among the names posted here previously by Paul as under consideration the past two years.
Did Kenny Anderson make the final 15?
HOF does not officially release the final 15 list of senior candidates so unless it gets posted by a voter on blog or website we would not know for sure, except he was on recent years lists from what we know.
“Well in that era the Cowboys played in two NFL championship games, then two Superbowls, winning one; and have 5 primary contributing players already in the HOF”
Actually 3 of those 5 players you mention also went on to win another Super Bowl later in the decade and appear in several more championship games, so it’d be improper to limit the HoFer to team accomplishment ratio with an overly narrow focus on the run from the mid 60s (while Staubach was still in Vietnam) through 71. Landry’s record 20 consecutive winning seasons required many great players in overlapping waves, and is overall underrepresented in Canton with only 7 entries. Of course HoF induction is ultimately an individual award, and Howley is more than deserving.
As Corey noted, the selectors didn’t have a problem inducting yet another 60s Packer Dave Robinson, and in general I haven’t noticed any “fatigue” regarding other franchises, including ones with zero Super Bowl wins. The recent spate of Cowboys have been obvious shoo-ins from the 90s dynasty, not borderline candidates, and should have no bearing on considering Howley, Harris, and Pearson. If the selectors are tired from inducting Cowboys over the past decade then they shouldn’t have excluded so many worthy Landry era candidates for so long. They still have catching up to do.
I did not mean to imply that I believed Howley was not been selected due to Cowboys over representation, but it is very likely that could be an issue for Kramer and increasingly so (yet other issues are at play since Robinson was selected in 2013). And I was comparing the era in which Howley and Robinson played for their teams, not considering the entire 20+ year run of the Landry era.
In these boards we have debated the merits of more Cowboys players from the Landry era elected and also the impacts of the long believed Cowboys bias against election that many have claimed for the period of HOF voting from the 1970s into the 1990s (Renfro and Wright being the best evidence for such a bias). But with their elections, and changes in the representation, diversity and number of voters that then both saw Wright and Hayes elected as seniors in recent years – the key factor I believe is now holding Howley back from election also as a senior.
As there are many deserving players from a range of teams who could also claim a bias and resulting underrepresention that supporters would like to see resolved through the seniors election, Howley and the Cowboys being just one. I have no doubt that Howley is a serious contender and considered among the top seniors each year and his election is likely very close, as much as many of us believe it should have been by now or even this year, I believe it will happen very soon. Harris is also in that mix, but for me the biggest issue regarding the Landry era Cowboys not being considered as a senior candidate is in fact Drew Pearson.
At the very least the nomination of Guy sets in place a historical debate during the 2014 elections that will be a deciding benchmark for how special team players are viewed going forward with future HOF elections – an issue that will no doubt be the center of the 2014 elections even overshadowing the debates over the modern candidates I suspect.
I was just looking at Ray Guy’s profile on Pro Football Reference and was wondering why such a well regarded punter who dominated his position in the 1970s was only credited with 3 first team All Pros during his entire career. At the bottom of Guy’s PFR page where it lists his accolades, I was curious why he wasn’t selected as the AP All Pro from 1973-75 when everybody else was voting him as their number one punter for that particular season. Who could AP be possibly selecting instead as their punter?
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GuyxRa20.htm
As it turns out, and after researching the All Pro teams for 1973-75 listed on PFR, there was actually nobody else being selected ahead of Guy because AP did not start naming a Punter on their All Pro teams until 1976. Guy is therefore credited with 3 first-team AP All Pros from 1976-78; but he was also the consensus All Pro from 1973-78 with 3 other organisations:
Pro Football Writers
Newspaper Enterprise Association
Pro Football Weekly
I’m not sure what the story is behind AP not naming a punter on their All Pro teams until 1976 (they were naming kickers). In fact Guy ended up with a clean sweep of 1st team All Pro honours from every voting organisation for the first 6 seasons of his career.
I am curious what the seniors saw in Claude Humphrey a second time but not Jerry Kramer or my man Johnny Robinson, who was a finalist back in the 1980s.
Like I said though, both are better than last year. I have no problem with either and I hope Ray Guy gets his call.
To clarify, Paul, my point was that even most of those inductees who played with Howley were inducted for a lot more than the accomplishments during his career, and therefore aren’t pure representatives of his era. Staubach, for example, didn’t become the starter until 1971 and so his induction says nothing about the powerhouse Cowboys teams of the 1960s. Similarly, Rayfield Wright mostly got in for his play over the course of the 1970s, while Renfro’s career straddled the decades but saw him win the second Super Bowl later on.
I hope you’re right about Howley and Harris getting in soon. Maybe if they do Drew will start getting some serious looks.
Not Till Cliff Branch Gets Looked at Rasputin JMO
I think it’s only fair Del Shofner gets looked at. A 5/5 profile and an all decade selection. That looks like a Hall of Famer to me.
According to John Turney of the Professional Football Researchers Association:
* Mick Tingelhoff and Bob Kuechenberg were tied for 3rd.
* Johnny Robinson and Mike Curtis were next in the Top 6.
* Eddie Meador was in the Top 10.
* PFRA candidates Lavvie Dilweg and Al Wistert were in the Top 15 but didn’t survive the cut to 10.
* Other names to be included in the Top 15 were Cliff Branch and Cliff Harris.
* He listed 16 names in total (one too many). They included Chuck Howley, Maxie Baughan, Jerry Kramer, Tommy Nobis and Ken Riley.
* No QBs were in the Top 15. Neither was Mac Speedie or Duke Slater, both of whom were being promoted by the PFRA.
Both Humphrey and Guy are most worthy Senior nominees. Too bad they didn’t elect them before — the voters have had plenty of chances to do the right thing, thus freeing up slots for others. Hope they both make it in this time, as they should.
In fact, of the 16 players boknows34 listed via John Turney, the only ones that I think have weak arguments are Riley and Curtis, with Kuechenberg and Nobis borderline but more plausible. The rest are no-brainers, but with 12 of these, it’s brutally tough to narrow down to just two.
It’s good to know Robinson and Tingelhoff were part of the discussion. Hopefully next year.
It’s always good to hear that about Meador. Hopefully Wistert gets his time soon.
So after the 2012-2014 nominations this is what the current senior pool consists of, with those finalists from 2012 and 2013 still remaining (I have not seen 2014 list of senior finalists). Since the six nominees from 2013-2014 came from this list it is safe to say future nominations are here, in less a newer candidate rushes up the list (?). But I think it is pretty safe to assume based on recent history that senior nominees over the next few years will come from here in some crazy and unpredictable order:
2015 Pro Football HOF Senior Candidates
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
G – Bob Kuechenberg 2/6/70s-80s (finalist 2012, 2013)
C – Mick Tingelhoff 5/6/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s (finalist 2012)
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s-80s (finalist 2012)
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s-80s (finalist 2012, 2013)
RDT – Roger Brown 2/6/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
LDE – L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s (finalist 2013)
DT – Alex Karras 0/4 60s (finalist 2012)
RLB – Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s (finalist 2012)
MLB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012)
LLB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
LB- Mike Curtis 2/4/60s-70s (finalist 2012, 2013)
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
CB – Lester Hayes 1/5/70s 80s (finalist 2012)
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
From Turney’s insight on the 2014 seniors nomination process we should be able to update the list I just posted to include 2014 status of finalists. Interesting to see some of the order and ranking. If true it give some views of the thinking of the 2014 seniors committee, but since the 5 voters rotate among the 9 seniors committee members, it is also likely those views and “rankings” will vary year to year. Disappointing to see Howley not higher – especially with a Dallas media representative on the 2014 seniors nomination committee – as I would certainly view him as deserving of top 5 standing, looks like he fell out 10-15.
Looks like Tingelhoff, Kuechenberg, Johnny Robinson and Mike Curtis are strong favorites in coming years.
For those names who have appeared in each of the last 3 years it’s probably only a matter of time for most of them.
Four are on offense:
Mick Tingelhoff
Bob Keuchenberg
Jerry Kramer
Cliff Branch
Five are on defense:
Mike Curtis
Johnny Robinson
Eddie Meador
Chuck Howley
Cliff Harris
Nine names in total and 10 more Seniors spots to be named before the end of the decade: 2015-19. I would concentrate my efforts on those nine and perhaps add one of the old timers like Wistert or Dilweg to the Offense list. Then just pick one from each side for the next 5 years.
Unfortunately Rick Gosselin doesn’t represent Dallas. He wasn’t chosen by locals and, apart from a brief period spurred by the backlash following the 2004 debacle (those who don’t know look it up), I’ve seen no evidence that he’s advocated for Cowboys players. He’s a Michigan transplant who waged a public fight to get old Detroit Lion Dick Lebeau in through the senior process a while back, and who knows how much of his backroom political capital he spent on that. What concerns me is that a couple of years ago he wrote a column boasting about how many Cowboys had entered the Hall recently (mostly the aforementioned 90s shoo ins that required no effort on his part) and essentially saying that fans shouldn’t hold their breath for new inductees through the senior process. Reading between the lines, he seemed to have decided that he could rest on his supposed laurels regarding the Cowboys while pursuing is own, different interests. However, in a online fans’ questions interview he did get asked multiple times why Howley wasn’t in, so hopefully this pressure grows and spurs him into action again. Or Dallas gets a new “representative”. Either would be good.
That looks like a good approach and if we then consider the trends in nominations over the last ten years by team and position, certainly looks like some combination of Tingelhoff,OL Vikings (Of), Robinson,DB KC (Df), and Keuchenberg OL Miami (Of), Curtis LB Balt (Df) are likely within next few years. I would be happy with any of these four, but still believe strongly that Howley should be in this mix and that he is better pick then Curtis at same position/era.
Unfortunately the regular HOF voters have no term limits, they serve as long as they choose to. Voters are selected to represent local team media with additional open seats, and they often serve as advocates for their local players including presenting their nominations to the full committee at the finalist stage. Many do a great job, some with too much bias, and unfortunately some put little effort into local representation, perhaps that is the case for Gosselin. Some of these voters have been on the HOF voters committee for decades!! So unless he dies or decides to give it up, like it or not Dallas is stuck with Gosselin for the foreseeable future. I also believe the appointment of 9 of the voters to the seniors committee is also with no term limits, although they rotate through with 5 members at the nomination meeting in August each year, so again Dallas is stuck with Gosselin.
I too have read his comments regarding the 1970s Landry era Cowboys suggesting that perhaps their window has closed for election, but he seems to be getting called out regarding Howley and his more recent public comments appear to have a more supportive tone.
Right or wrong he does strike me as the type of writer/voter that would relish the chance to pick a fight with the other voters on their views regarding players skipped over for election, hence my impression that for 2014 he was a leader behind electing two players that will certainly draw a flight out on Feb 1st.
Looking up on Curtis, he doesn’t quite strike me as a Hall of Famer. Rather I think he just misses. A 2/4 profile isn’t bad, but there are many linebackers I would give it to before him, but he definitely would have been better than Dave Robinson.
I found this article on Mike Curtis from November 2011 and there appears to be a big push to have him enshrined in the HOF.
http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/11/30/11/Mike-Curtis-strives-for-Canton-facing-ne/landing.html?blockID=615716
”But why did a player widely regarded as one of the best on the field for more than a decade never get the ultimate recognition of his sport?
One of Curtis’ old Duke teammates, Sonny Odom, wondered that as well. And about two-and-a-half years ago, Odom began an informal campaign to get his friend elected as a senior nominee.
During a visit to the Hall around that time, talking to friends who’d been enshrined, Curtis began to realize how much induction meant to him after all, and felt that his accomplishments made him worthy of the honor.
“I started to pay more attention to it, and I went into the warehouse to get these boxes that I had packed away 40 years ago,” he said. “When I opened them, I was like, ‘Gee whiz, I didn’t know I did all that.’ I just never paid too much attention.”
The treasure trove of football achievements — including his status as the only NFL player named All-Pro at both middle and outside linebacker — spurred the efforts on behalf of Curtis to open the doors to a place in the Hall.
Spearheaded by Odom, his management team and family members, including oldest son Clay Curtis and daughter-in-law Lauren Curtis of St. Petersburg, Fla., the push has gone into overdrive. They have solicited and received more than 35 letters from Hall of Fame players and contemporaries of Curtis, recommending him for nomination.
The roll call reads like a Who’s Who: Don Shula, Joe Namath, Roger Staubach, Mike Ditka, Gino Marchetti, Ozzie Newsome, Lem Barney, Jim Otto, Bobby Mitchell, Paul Hornung, Lenny Moore, Art Donovan, Charlie Sanders …
And the list goes on … Fran Tarkenton, Sonny Jurgensen, Bob Lilly, LeRoy Kelly, Mel Blount, Nick Buoniconti, Mike McCormack, Harry Carson, Kellen Winslow, Dave Wilcox, Mel Renfro, Ronnie Lott, Chris Hanburger …”
Corey Would one of the lbs you would consider would be Robert brazille
The class of the senior linebackers are Chuck Howley, Maxie Baughan, Randy Gradishar and Robert Brazile. Every other linebacker takes a linebacker as far as I am concerned.
Sorry, typo. Every other linebacker takes a backseat, as far as I am concerned.
“…but he definitely would have been better than Dave Robinson”
I don’t see Curtis being a far superior candidate to Robinson or really even superior at all. Robinson was named first-team All Pro by at least three of the major voting organizations of the time from 1967-69. Curtis had one more Pro Bowl nod, but Robinson may have lost out at least once due to the decline in the Packers’ win totals from 1968-71. Given that he was named All-Pro by the NEA, the NY Daily News and UPI in 1968, it’s tough to say that he didn’t have a “Pro Bowl level” season even though he wasn’t named to the team. Robinson was also named to the All-60s team. Tough to compare the two after ’68, since Curtis got moved to the middle and Robinson stayed outside. I would agree that Howley has a stronger overall case than both.
Brazile’s worthy of consideration, but from that era (mid-70s-mid 80s) I think Randy Gradishar is the biggest LB omission.
Lee Roy Jordan is another who at least deserves mention. Better overall team, yes, but everything I’ve gathered leads me to conclude that he was every bit as Nobis if not better. Given that, I’ve wondered if he’s hurt Howley’s chances a little. I think he’s made the finalist list for the Seniors a few times in the past.
Robinson was named to the 1960s All Decade team, but in my opinion he wasn’t deserving. I think Maxie Baughan would’ve been a better spot for on the team. For what it’s worth, I do not support Curtis or Robinson, but I would take Curtis over Robinson. Curtis had 2/4 vs. 1/3 for Robinson and Curtis was a 20/20 member.
Nobis and Jordan are both middle of the pack for me. 1/5 for Nobis and much more deserving on the 1960s All Decade team than Robinson was, in my opinion. 1/5 is also the case for Jordan too and I have a hard time deciding who is better.
That being said, there is such a logjam at the senior pool and especially linebacker. I fail to see how Robinson leap frogged all those names.
Lee Roy Jordan was a finalist only once, in 1988.
Baughan has a case for inclusion on the All-60s team, but I don’t think it’s cut and dry that’s he’s more deserving than Robinson. There’s also Howley, who very well might’ve been more deserving than both. Really, Larry Morris is the one who sticks out like a sore thumb among the LBS on the All-60s team. Again, Robinson was All-Pro three times. I know some think that AP is THE All-Pro team, in large part because it’s basically the only one that’s still around, but that wasn’t the case while Robinson was playing.
It’s even harder to compare Robinson to Nobis than it is to compare Curtis to Robinson since Nobis was strictly a MLB.
Again, though, I think Howley is more deserving than Robinson and i would give him the edge over Chris Hanburger. too.
boknows34: As a “modern era” candidate, yes. Should be kept in mind that most of the other LBs we’re talking about didn’t make it that far at all as “modern era” prospects. However, I’m almost positive he’s made the Seniors finalist list (which isn’t publicly released but usually leaks out) more than once.
Sorry. As deserving as Chuck Howley is, I cannot give him the edge over Chris Hanburger. Hanburger had a 4/9 profile who was the defensive signal caller for that defense of George Allen’s Over the Hill Gang.
What exactly made Robinson so deserving? His profile, based on what I have seen, is not impressive compared to other linebackers and I seriously did not even think of him as a candidate when he was selected last year.
It looks like my guy Kenny Anderson got debated in 2012 by the senior voters and did not get any traction. I assume his falling off the discussion list shows his chances are a long way off or over.
As far as the other Bengal ken Riley even being mentioned ahead of Anderson seems odd. Any of the guys who played with the bengals from that era will tell you Riley wasn’t even the best defensive back on the bengals.
It was lemar Parrish. He and Kenny Anderson are the 2 bengals who in my opinion belong in the hall.
One interesting aspect of these selections that we have not discussed yet is that both players are relatively new additions to the senior candidate pool. Guy appeared on the modern finalist list in 2008; Humphrey appeared last in 2006, followed by a quick rise and appearance as a senior candidate in 2009. So within six years, very quickly both have risen to the top of the seniors candidates bypassing some players who have been in that pool for many years, even decades. Makes you wonder about the view of the senior committee of those other players and the potential impact of other fast risers among new and soon to be senior candidates.
John Turney posted on the PFRA forum that the 2014 finalist list for senior candidates was: Baughan, Howley, Meador, Johnny Robinson, Ken Riley, Guy, Branch, Tingelhoff, Dilweg, Wistert, Curtis, Kuechenberg, Jerry Kramer, Claude Humphrey, Tommy Nobis, Cliff Harris (actually 16 must have included a tie).
So unless there are any new or recent additions that move up, or others from further down the list, likely next several elections will draw in some order from this list.
and from his previous posts at PFRA looks like Tingelhoff, Kuechenberg, Johnny Robinson and Mike Curtis are next in line as they were in top 6 for 2014. Although always chance another player gets into that mix and the order of election could change depending on who the 5 senior committee members are who made the final choices.
jerry kramer will get in maybe sometime in 2015 or 2016
Hard to say about Kramer as it appears at least for 2014 elections he was not among the top finalists considered. Remember all the talk months ago about Tingelhoff and his likely election? Most of these players have their supporters, some very vocal and public, but at the end of the day five voters select the senior nominees and as a result among the list of 2014 finalists posted from PFRA forum any and all have equal chance.
I have no idea what the issue is regarding Kramer but the full HOF committee and senior committee have made him a finalist several times before, so he has been in the room for discussion for final votes but never was selected. Hard to say why or if his chances will suddenly improve soon. For me the election of Robinson over Kramer from the 60s era Packers said plenty about his current and future chances and how the HOF voters view him – apparently not very well. I think he could be in for a long wait.
i hope ray guy finally gets his due. there is a lack of special teams players in the hall with only one pure player from that position which is jan stenerud so hopefully the writers will do the right thing and put him in and it will be the first raiders player since coach john maddon in 2006
Neither one of these nominees blow me away.
Ray Guy is just 89th all time in punting yrds/avg(42.4) and isn’t even the best punter in Raiders history(Shane Lechler). He only had one season of atleast 44yrds per punt and lead the the league in punt yrds/avg three times.
I think Guy is the most famous pure kicker in NFL history, but he is not Babe Ruth among all punters performance wise. I would say Jerrel Wilson, Tommy Daivs, Sean Landeta and Reggie Roby have strong cases too, much less Lechler above.
Wilson has a career punt avg of 43.0 and led the league five times in punt yrds/avg, seven seasons he avg atleast 44yrds a punt, three of those atleast 45 yards a punt.
Davis was not just a punter but also one of the best FG kickers in his league. As a punter, his career punt avg was 44.7 with seven seasons avg atleast 44 yrds a punt, including six of those avg atleast 45 yrds a punt.
Landeta is on two different NFL all decade teams, the NFL all decade team of the 80’s and 90’s.
Yale Lary and Sammy Baugh were great punters as well along with their great careers at QB and DB.
Lary has a career punt avg of 44.3 and led the league three times in punt yrds/avg, 47.1 in 1959, 48.4 in 1961 and 48.9 in 1963.
Baugh has a career punt avg of 45.1(16th all time) and five times led the league in punt yrds/avg; 51.4(greatest all time) in 1940, 48.7 in 1941, 48.2 in 1942, 45.9 in 1943 and 43.3 in 1945.
Humphrey to me is a Hall of Very Good career player who was great a few years on bad teams. He quit on his Falcons team in 1978, leaving them during the season after the first four games to announce his retirement. He then up and joined the Eagles the very next year in 1979.
I would vote NO on both of these nominees and am very disappointed in their selections. Both have been heavily debated up and down recently by the voters and were rejected. Why bring them back so soon?
“Hall of Very Good”
You mean as opposed to the Hall of Great? Where is the Hall of Great anyway? I know the Hall of Fame is in Canton, but I can’t remember where this Hall of Great I keep hearing about is.
Hall could Have Done Better with nominees If you guys want ill post the guys they should have selected if interested
Boardgame, a couple thoughts:
–I too would prefer to see Tommy Davis or Verne Lewellen as a punter-based Senior nominee, but I’m fine with Guy. Davis was indeed a terrific punter and a dead-accurate extra-point kicker (he only missed two in 350 attempts and for years held the record for consecutive XPTs made), while Lewellen was the premiere punter of the 20s-30s and was an all-pro level back. But Guy likely was considered the premiere punter of his time — and since he’s nominated, it’ll set a good precedent for getting in someone like Davis or Lewellen. I say we induct Guy now and not stop there.
–Claude Humphrey has a very strong postseason honors profile of 5/6/none comparable to several DEs already elected (similar to Carl Eller at 5/6/70s and Willie Davis at 5/5/60s and Jack Youngblood at 5/7/70s and Len Ford at 5/4/50s, rather better than Lee Roy Selmon’s 3/6/80s, and a lot better than Richard Dent’s 2/4/none and Fred Dean’s 2/4/none). That’s a strong HoF argument and definitely not just being “great a few years.” He’s probably the best Senior DE not in (L.C. Greenwood at 2/6/70s and Gene Brito at 4/5/none should also be in, and Humphrey’s profile is a bit better than either). I think it was a travesty Humphrey wasn’t elected before, especially when he was Senior-nominated a couple years ago.
I say yes to both.