We’ve written a lot about the Hall of Fame over the years. And we’ve gotten a fair amount of debate from readers over the strengths and weaknesses of the selection system, who should be in that isn’t and whether there are teams who are underrepresented in Canton.
I’d like to start taking greater inventory of those opinions and maybe start looking more deeply into some of the individual cases that people discuss.
We’ll start here. Below is a poll on which you can vote for who you would like to see enshrined in 2014. This is based on the finalist list announced a few days ago. Please take a moment to vote for up to five modern-era candidates.
Then, if you have time, in the comments section I’d like to know why you made the selections you did. I’d also like to see who you think are the one to three most deserving candidates for the Hall who never made it in during their modern-era eligibility. Present a brief case for them if you’d like.
I think our site has had some pretty solid discussion on these issues over the years. I’d like to take this to the next level. Thank you, in advance, for your time and input.
Which modern-era candidates would you like to see named to the Hall of Fame in 2014?
- Derrick Brooks (20%, 17 Votes)
- Walter Jones (15%, 13 Votes)
- Michael Strahan (15%, 13 Votes)
- Tim Brown (10%, 8 Votes)
- Will Shields (7%, 6 Votes)
- Marvin Harrison (6%, 5 Votes)
- Andre Reed (6%, 5 Votes)
- Charles Haley (6%, 5 Votes)
- Jerome Bettis (5%, 4 Votes)
- Aeneas Williams (5%, 4 Votes)
- Kevin Greene (4%, 3 Votes)
- Edward DeBartolo Jr (1%, 1 Votes)
- Morten Andersen (0%, 0 Votes)
- Tony Dungy (0%, 0 Votes)
- John Lynch (0%, 0 Votes)
Total Voters: 18
Loading ...
Kevin Greene – 160 sacks (ranks #3) and 2 sack titles. Has been waiting a lot longer than Michael Strahan (141.5 sacks; ranks #5; has the single season record and 2 sack titles but won’t have to wait much longer).
Will Shields – 12 Pro Browls; already had to wait a couple of years and guys with double digit Pro Bowls shouldn’t have to wait too long.
Derrick Brooks – Doesn’t have the most awe inspiring stats, but has accolades up the wazoo and was probably the greatest outside 4-3 LB of this century so far. A key piece of a championship defense.
Charles Haley and Tim Brown – Time to get these guys in. Haley was a key defensive player on two dynastic teams whose eyeball test performance far exceeded his still impressive stats and accolades, and this could be his last shot. Also, now that the long running WR log jam is broken, time to keep it from jamming back up again. Brown ranks 5th all time in receptions, ranks 6th in yards, and has 9 Pro Bowls.
Bettis is a borderline candidate who has no rushing titles but will likely make it someday due to sheer career volume (13,662 yards). I wouldn’t put him ahead of the guys listed above this year though. Most of the other guys on the list should be inducted too, but they may have to wait a little while longer.
Side note – This underscores what I’ve been complaining about regarding the PFHOF system, especially from the Cowboys’ perspective.
Jason Witten just made his 9th Pro Bowl, and even non Cowboys fans have been increasingly calling him a “future HoFer” in recent years. But Rick Gosselin, the Michigan transplant chosen by a bunch of writers who hate the Dallas Cowboys to “represent” Dallas until he dies or retires, when asked in a television interview that aired yesterday about Witten’s chances for Canton, used his entire response time (which admittedly wasn’t long) to downplay them, claiming that it’d be a “tough road”. He didn’t provide an actual argument why apart from saying that Todd Christensen (5 Pro Bowls, 461 rec., 5,872 yds) still isn’t in despite winning two “receiving titles”. Presumably Gosselin meant he led the league in receptions two years, since receiving titles typically refer to yardage, and Christensen never won one. His only other argument was that Witten hadn’t won a Super Bowl (not yet anyway; Gosselin is apparently dismissing any future Dallas title hopes), and spent most of the rest of his answer explaining why Tony Gonzales would be a slam dunk. I guess his position is that TEs aren’t inducted often, but Witten is one of the greatest TEs in history and has both the blocking legacy and (still growing) receiving stats to prove it. There’s surely room for more than one TE from this era in Canton.
Also, when the interviewer suggested that Cowboys have a little harder time making it to Canton anyway Gosselin disagreed, implying that had been true in the past but was now “fixed” with the induction of Bob Hayes and Rayfield Wright, and even going on to mention the Triplets and Larry Allen, reinforcing the view that Gosselin is content to rest on his laurels for the inductions of 90s era shoo-ins he had no role in pushing. He did push hard for Hayes after the backlash following the 2004 fiasco (when 3 Cowboys made the top 10; 2 the final 6 when 6 could be approved, and they were the only 2 rejected), but that’s one guy (Wright seemed to have more support from outsiders) and by itself doesn’t “fix” the serious under-representation by Landry era players or address the perhaps diminished but still existing bias apparently keeping the modern era players who aren’t obvious shoo-ins like Darren Woodson from getting their deserved consideration.
Other cities have true representatives on the selection committee, homegrown guys or at least ones who regularly advocate for local players. Dallas is stuck with a Detroit Lions fan who used what political capital he had to push in Dick Lebeau a few years ago. I know this is tangential to this thread but this situation is frustrating for Cowboys fans. It’s bad enough to have dead weight as our “representative”, but at least Gosselin shouldn’t actively argue AGAINST deserving Cowboys. This is the same hack who attributed Dallas having several Pro Bowlers a couple of years back to the fan vote, without bothering to do the couple of minutes of googling it would have taken to see that those Cowboys trailed in the fan vote, but were put in by the coach/player vote. The process needs reform. If the PFHOF is going to pretend these are representatives, then locals should have a say in who represents them. Either way doing away with lifetime appointments would probably improve things, cut down on the corrupt back room deal cutting, and put more of the focus back on honest discussions of players’ merits.
“I’d also like to see who you think are the one to three most deserving candidates for the Hall who never made it in during their modern-era eligibility.”
You mean guys still not in Canton or are you including those who already made it through the senior route but probably shouldn’t have had to?
If Witten can clear 1,000 receptions as a TE with a 2(2)/9 profile, even without playoff success or SB, it will be pretty hard for HOF voters to ignore his qualifications regardless of Gosselin as one voter. I doubt any one voter, including Gosselin, really stops or advances modern players from the HOF. Granted the longer Witten can play at a high level (more all pro/pro bowls) and recs/TDs plus playoffs will only help. To some degree I agree with Gosselin in the case if Witten were to retire today it could be a tough road. But another 3-5 years at 60+ receptions, plus the bonus of post season awards and success should solidify his case.
Increasing and rotating more people in as HOF voters (and also do same for the senior committee) should also help minimize the impact of single or block voters for or against certain players. But I do agree strongly that if he is serving on the senior committee, Gosselin should be focusing some of that effort on the cases for Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson, rather then completely abandon and give up on the Landry era Cowboys, which it appears he has.
I also think that Shields is very deserving, but feel that this year with Walter Jones now on the ballot, Shield’s election could be delayed one more year (and certainly no longer) as Jones is viewed by many as a better it not close equal to Shields. Eaither way one is getting in this year and one next.
As to Haley I do think he is a better overall candidate then Greene and certainly there appears to be more push to get Haley elected. Haley (unlike Greene) has also advanced to into the final 10 the last two elections, placing him further along then Greene. It has only been the number of pass rushing DE and LBs that has stopped Haley in last few years, but clearly beyond Strahan, Haley is next.
But if by some chance Haley does not make it this year I doubt that has any long term impact on his ability to get elected as there are no equal or better pass rushing DE appearing on the ballot until 2017 which gives the next three elections to get both Greene and Haley elected – a very strong possibility given the efforts by HOF voters to get more defensive player elected.
I was skeptical of Jason Witten a couple years ago. He has now stamped his HOF worthy career when he got his 800 reception.
Jason Witten has been consistent. Has has had at least 754 receiving yards for 10 straight years. Very good for a TE. 7 straight years of at least 851 receiving yards and 6 years of at least 942.
Add me to those who think Jason Witten has definitely punched his ticket into Canton. Having a career as long and as productive as his will do it. Will be extremely surprised if he doesn’t get voted in, though like all TEs, he’ll probably wait a few years. Shannon Sharpe and Kellen Winslow were the fastest inducted, on their third time as finalist in third year of eligibility. For others by times finalist and year of eligibility:
Ozzie Newsome: 3(4)
Dave Casper: 3(13)
John Mackey: 5(15)
Mike Ditka: 2(12)
Jackie Smith: 2(12)
Charlie Sanders: 1(25), Senior nominee.
Tony Gonzalez is of course getting in, and a 3(3) wait might be about right for him depending on how bad the backlog of good candidates is in five years — no TE has ever been “first ballot.”. My guess is Witten winds up somewhere between the quick-ins (Sharpe, Winslow) and the long-eligibles (Mackey, Casper, Ditka, Smith), maybe 5(8) or thereabouts.
backslunch, Tone Gonzalez is a first ballot lock. He is a 6 time all pro and 14 time pro bowler (as of yeterday). There is no way that a TE who retires with the second most receptions in NFL history (over 200 more receptions than Marvin Harrison, number three on the list) is not getting in on his first try. I know the history of TE’s. But Tony Gonzalez is the “Jerry Rice” of TEs. The gold standard that all future TEs will be compared against and for which the typical HOF voting rules do not apply. Remember Jerry Rice breezed to election in the midst of the WR backlog. The same will happen with Gonzalez.
As for Witten, the biggest problem for him is the explosion of TE stats in the last 10 years (and especially the last 5). Witten will be compared against Tony Gonzalez, but also Antonio Gates (very similar profile, but I get the impression that (rightly or wrongly) his “peak” is considered better than Witten and he played through more injuries (that we know of)). Of course, by the time Witten and Gates are up for election, who know what type of stats Jimmy Graham, Vernon Davis, Rob Gronkowsi, etc. will be putting up. The question for Witten might be whether this era (or any era) can have three HOF TEs. As a Redskins fan, I tend to say yes, but I understand the “hard road” perspective.
Justin, it’s always possible Gonzalez becomes the first “first ballot” TE — but history suggests not necessarily. We shall see.
Also note that Ditka, Mackey, and Smith all played at the same time for a good stretch, so one can have more than one TE from any time period elected.
Put it this way: Jason Witten has 20 games of at least 100 receiving yards in 175 career games. Tony Gonzalez has 31 in 270 games. Jason will have to wait but not that long. Antonio Gates is definitely going to get in. Too bad he got hurt. He is not the same. He could retire this year. He has at least a year of 60 receptions, 700 yards or more and 4+ TDs.
2012 NFL QB Class is going to be interesting if it continues the way it is going. There could be 4 HOF QBs.
Justin, for the record I have to say that technically Witten has “played through more injuries”, only missing one game in his entire career due to a broken jaw early on, not even letting a lacerated spleen stop him last year. Gates has been sidelined more often by injury though.
While I’m not saying you’re wrong about the perception of some, I’m not sure one can rationally argue Gates has a better peak. Gates’ best yardage year was 1157, while Witten’s was 1145 (almost identical), but Witten has four 1,000 yard seasons while Gates only has two, and Witten set the single season TE reception record last year with 110 while Gates’ best mark was 89 in 2005. Their per game reception and yardage averages are very close. Gates has a significant career advantage in touchdowns (52-87) and a slight one in yards/catch, but that’s at least partially due differences in the way they’ve used. While Gates is more of a pure receiver who’s a TE in name only, Witten is a true TE who’s routinely used to perform the team’s mundane chores (even lead blocking fullback) and who has been one of the NFL’s better blocking TEs for much of his career. This year, when they finally made a conscious effort to use him more as a receiver than a blocker in the red zone, Witten caught 8 tds.
They came into the league the same year but, Witten is a couple of years younger, and, despite being used heavily as a blocker, has 606 more yards and 160 more catches than Gates. Unless one only values tds (which would be bad news for most players on the field), I think Witten has the stronger HoF case so far, though I’d induct both guys.
bachslunch, thanks for that research. If voters do judge TEs as basically receivers (graded on a curve versus WRs, ala Shannon Sharpe), it could cut both ways. The td gap could hurt Witten, but on the other hand the rise of receiving TEs generally could improve the position’s profile in their minds, causing them to induct more from this era, boosting Witten’s chances. In any event his combination of durability and sustained, elite performance should leave him with outstanding career stats that most would deem Canton worthy.
Witten will be an interesting case for how HOF voters view the TE position in the coming decade. On one hand historically they have down valued the TE position, yet since 2000 it is clear that the TE is playing an increasingly important role in the pass focused offenses. The numbers of Gonzalez, Gates and Witten illustrate that trend as do the more recent TEs. And for the traditionalist, Witten clearly is the best blocker and should receive some credit for that equally important aspect of the TE position.
Although it is possible (if they can stay injury free and have 10+ year careers), that Jimmy Graham, Vernon Davis, Rob Gronkowsi, and other recent and future TEs, could also put up big numbers, that could also re-enforce the value of what Witten has achieved. This is assuming that the TE remains as a critical element of the passing game unless the defense responds with faster and larger DBs to cover them (or faster LBs) and counter their impact, resulting in further adaptation by offenses, as we all know that the trends and cycles of offense approach and defense response occur.
Unfortunately the presence of Gates from the same era, and ultimately on the HOF ballot in the same period will cause much debate and possible voting spiting. Although I agree with the position that in many respects Witten has the better year and numbers, all too many HOF voters place significance to all pro, pro bowl, and decade teams: Witten 2(2)AP/9/none; Gates 3(2)AP/8/2000s. However, Gates is 2 years older then Witten, so Witten (if he can stay healthy, not always possible for any player over 30), should be able to continue to build on his higher career reception numbers (+ 160) and why I feel Witten needs to get over 1,000 plus receptions and any additional awards and post season success. Witten also holds the current records for most receptions in a game by TE and most single season receptions by TE, but with the younger TEs and their role in the passing game there is a good chance someone passes those in the near future.
I do feel strongly that Witten is a HOFer, but can foresee the situation where his path to election could be delayed or “rough” as the HOF voters sort out how to address the “new age” TEs. Within the decade ahead TEs on the HOF ballot could face the same type of logjam as WRs have currently, past several years and will over the next decade that have resulted in 8 of the top 11 career receptions as WRs are on the ballot, or soon will be.
“2012 NFL QB Class is going to be interesting if it continues the way it is going. There could be 4 HOF QBs.”
Once Brady, Manning and Brees retire we can look forward the rise of recognition for other younger QBs from this decade, such as on the all pro team (that from 2010-2013 has only included those 3 QBs plus Rodgers).
The 2011, 2008 and 2004 drafts all have at least two strong contenders.
But history has shown us that 4 HOF QBs from one draft is pretty rare, so I would be a little more cautious to put 2012 forth as a possibility as the questions linger for at least Foles and Griffin. The NFL past is full of examples of young rising QBs with great starts to their careers, only to see them fade pretty quickly and often with little warning. Injuries, confidence, coaching, lack of supporting teammates, ego, and lack of focus on game preparation has doomed many a young QB.
And as much as I think Wilson, Kaepernick, Cam (and perhaps Griffin) represent the new – or renewed – QB model with their legs and arms, I remain uncertain as to whether they can stay healthy playing that way. For me the best young QB from recent years that I see already as HOF potential and on a path for a great and rewarding career, and for me the best of the bunch, is Andrew Luck.
With a 4/7 profile and I can imagine a 2010s All Decade selection, I think Joe Thomas could retire today and get in, maybe even on the first ballot.
Pretty hard to project for HOF for any player only 7 years into a career as HOF voters are usually bias against short careers, not matter the qualifications (just ask T Davis!). But he is clearly on the right path.
As to 1st ballot, as I have posted before it is often a case of other players on the ballot the same year, a strong and deep field can delay some 1st ballot players, while a weaker field could help.
Just look at how hard it has been for Will Shields to get elected: 8/12/2000s and 2014 is his 3rd year on the ballot – and he may not get selected again this year if Walter Jones jumps ahead of him!
Joe is on the fast track to the hall and could end up first ballot. I agree with Paul, 7 years is not enough. He is showing no signs of slowing down, so expect him to play at this level for next 3-5 years.
If any TE gets in first ballot it would have to be Gonzalez, and the TE position is increasingly becoming an extension of the WR position (see the ongoing controversy over whether Jimmy Graham could be franchised as a WR or TE). But Shannon Sharpe had to wait multiple years before getting in, and John Mackey, who NFL Network ranked slightly ahead of Gonzalez when they did their 100 Greatest Players a few years ago, almost had his eligibility run out entirely. Gonzalez won’t have to wait any later than the second ballot, but it’s not out of the question that he will have to wait.
Incidentally, with regard to the HOF announcement supposedly moving to the NFL Honors show this year, the HOF recently did damage control over the recent revelation that cameras would be allowed inside the selection room, and buried in there was this nugget:
In other words, the HOF will begin taping the selection announcement an hour or two before the actual NFL Honors show, and is explicitly telling the writers they can leak the selections as soon as they start doing that (and you know they will), AND is holding a press conference about it right afterwards so even MORE people are told who’s getting in (including the actual members of the Class of 2014) before they’re supposedly announced. So if you want NFL Honors to tell you who’s getting in, stay far away from Twitter and Zoneblitz starting around 6:30 ET.
Clearly the HOF was dragged kicking and screaming into consolidating its announcement into the NFL Honors show. The NFL probably wanted to do it to add more prestige to the NFL Honors and avoid having two televised ceremonies, both to honor players at different stages of their careers, on the same day, but the HOF wanted to keep doing things the way they had been doing it as much as possible. (Or maybe ratings for the selection show on NFL Network have declined precipitously since the NFL Honors started, so the NFL just cancelled it. I don’t know.)
With regards to Joe Thomas, the draft class of 2007 has a lot of HOF potential. Adrian Peterson, Calvin Johnson, Darrelle Revis, Patrick Willis and of course Thomas.
The 2014 Class that I’d like to see is:
Brooks
Strahan
Jones
Brown (better numbers than Reed)
Shields
Thanks for the insight Morgan. I was aware that entire that NFL Honors Show is to be taped, then televised starting at 800p (why not air it live??), so I was wondering how they were going to avoid word not getting out to voters and fans about the results before it aired since it was to be “announced” during the 6-8p taping. In the past the voters did not know those selected until the press conference typically held in late afternoon/early evening, soon after the all day election meeting was ended. And HOF voters usually were present at the press event and asking questions of those selected. A process now all messed up with the inclusion into the tape delayed Honors show. Now it gets out throughout the evening and then the official “announcement” is buried in the Honors show, really stupid and short sighted by the NFL.
Also should be fun to to see who in the media releases the results first, and then who posts it first here! Certainly no serious fan, including regular posters, are going to wait until the tape delayed show. As much as I like the suspense of watching the HOF announcement live, this year as part of a taped show I no great interest in watching (hey the awards are great, but a two hour show for them? no thanks, at least with the Oscars and Grammys you get some entertainment value there!), I will be online and my twitter feed looking by 630p.
there are always surprises
I’ve always thought Brooks and Harrison were 1st ballot selections. Strahan shouldn’t wait another year. Haley and Greene are way past due.
Tony not love for the OL? I am thinking HOF voters will not put in 3 or 4 pass rushing DE/LB in same election (Strahan, Haley, Greene and Humprey). Both OL Jones and Shield are well deserving and qualified, one gets in instead of Greene.
Those are the players I’d like to see in the HOF. I know Jones and Shields were premium players but I didn’t think they were as good as the last few that made it. They can wait a year or two while these long over due guys get in there. Of course it won’t work out that way. :)
I would like to see Brooks, Strahan, Reed, Jones and Shields make it.
I loved Kevin Greene more than any pass rusher from the 1990’s (aside from Derrick Thomas) and would rather see him in over Charles Haley, but Strahan deserves to get in ASAP.
Derrick Brooks was personally my favourite non-pass rushing linebacker, and I would even go as far to say the best outside linebacker I have ever seen play (I only caught the tail-end of Lawrence Taylor’s career).
Despite the retroactive praise he gets now, Walter Jones was an extremely underrated tackle during his time. For whatever reason, he always got overshadowed by Ogden and Roaf, but I always thought he was better than either. He was an absolute rock as a pass blocker and it seemed like Seattle had a 1,000 yard rusher every year he played between Ricky Watters and Shaun Alexander.
Reed is perhaps the single-best example from the 1990’s of a guy who history hasn’t been kind to, thanks to stats that far underwhelmed his legacy. He tailed off toward the end of his career, but I remember him in the early 1990’s being just as dangerous as any receiver in the league not named Rice. He had excellent hands, wasn’t afraid to make catches in traffic, and was extremely clutch in the playoffs and in cold weather. He also lost out on a lot of counting stats thanks to Buffalo running their offense through Thurman Thomas. Tim Brown had amazing speed, was a great receiver, and is one of the best punt returners of all-time, but that said I can’t remember a single signature play he made as a WR. He made 9 Pro Bowls, but a lot of that had to do with the AFC being very weak at the position during the mid-late 90’s…not to mention he made 2 of those as a punt returner. He only made one All-Pro team as a WR. Marvin Harrison probably deserves a first-ballot nomination, but I honestly have no problem with him waiting a year.
Will Shields was no Larry Allen, but he was rock solid for the Chiefs for well over a decade. He made 12 straight Pro Bowls, 7 1st or 2nd All-Pro teams and was still an excellent player at the time he retired. I haven’t had a problem with him waiting a bit, but he’s too good to keep out any longer.
He gets my last pick by a hair over Aeneas Williams. I have always liked the unheralded players for the small market teams, and he was a hidden gem on a lot of bad Cardinals teams. I was so happy when he finally got some exposure playing for the Rams.
With regards to senior candidates, it’s a bit tougher for me to judge them because having been born in 1985, I haven’t seen any eligible player play. I’ll give it a shot though. With all due respect for Johnny Robinson and Jerry Kramer, they were finalists several times and had a lot of shots to get inducted. I’ll going to highlight 3 guys that have never even been finalists despite excellent careers:
1) Chuck Howley – I honestly don’t know what is keeping him out of the Hall. He possessed outstanding speed for a linebacker in his era at a time when most LB’s played slow and with brute force. This allowed him to be one of the best cover LB’s in the league during the 60’s. In addition, he pretty much ticks every box on a checklist you would want for a HOFer. He made 6 Pro Bowls, 5 1st-Team All-Pro teams, was a Super Bowl MVP and won a Super Bowl ring. He also got hugely snubbed for the 60’s All-Decade team in favour of Dave Robinson (solid but not spectacular), and Tommy Nobis (only played 3 full seasons in the 60’s). He gets bonus points for being a great story, as he came back from a nearly career-ending knee injury early in his career to play 13 more seasons.
2) Mick Tingelhoff – While Howley’s snub could POSSIBLY be attributed to a backlog of deserving LB’s, Tingelhoff’s is almost inexcusable. He had a long career where he never missed a game, and like Howley was a 6/5. He unfortunately had bad luck playing at the same time as Jim Otto, Joe Ringo and Jim Langer, so perhaps the best argument against him is that there are too many centers from that era already inducted. That said though, I have always thought the best argument for a HOFer is whether of not he is better than the next best guy at his position that isn’t inducted. In Tingelhoff’s case, there is zero argument. He is easily the best C in the senior’s pool that hasn’t been inducted. Not sure what the hold up is with him, since as a whole the Hall has done a good job with O-Linemen.
3) Bobby Dillon – Dillon is likely not in for 4 reasons: he played in the 1950’s which already have tons of representation, he played for the Packers who have lots of representation, he was a safety, and he had a short career. That in mind though…he had a GREAT career. In 8 seasons, he was a Pro Bowler or first-team All-Pro 5 times, was a 2nd teamer two other times and had 52 INT’s, good for a tie for 2nd at the time of his retirement. Those are great numbers on their own, but can get lost among other great DB’s that are waiting for their call. What puts him above the rest in my eyes though is that he did all of that with ONE working eye. I mean come on, that’s gotta count for something!!
Ogden at 6’9″ 340 lbs is the best I’ve seen. I’ve never seen anyone give out so many “pancakes”. I totally agree about Brooks. I had the feeling watching him that I was watching the most complete LB I’ve ever seen. And he was so great for so long. As a young LB for the Los Angeles Rams, I never saw anyone play with more energy than Kevin Greene. I still don’t understand how Chris Doleman gets in and Greene is still sitting on the sidelines. Everywhere Greene played he made a huge impact. Totally messed up! Same with Claude Humphrey getting another crack at a Final vote with so many old players that NEED to be in the HOF. Ol’ Claude must have a hell of a advocate in a high place. I wonder if any Senior player has gotten a second crack before? As we all know the Senior election process is a joke!!!
I think maybe Tingelhoff was pushed around pretty good in all of those SB losses. That stuff sticks with people.
Tony P. said: “Same with Claude Humphrey getting another crack at a Final vote with so many old players that NEED to be in the HOF. Ol’ Claude must have a hell of a advocate in a high place. I wonder if any Senior player has gotten a second crack before? As we all know the Senior election process is a joke!!!”
Actually, five players have had two tries as a Senior, and three were elected the next time out: Lou Creekmur, Henry Jordan, and Bob Hayes — and all were HoF deserving to varying degrees, with Hayes probably the most borderline. Two other, the undeserving Marshall Goldberg and deserving but short-career Dick Stanfel, failed in their two tries.
Claude Humphrey is also HoF deserving, and I think it’s a travesty he wasn’t elected before. I had posted the following on another thread here, which I believe makes a strong case for him:
“Humphrey has a very strong postseason honors profile of 5/6/none comparable to several DEs already elected (similar to Carl Eller at 5/6/70s and Willie Davis at 5/5/60s and Jack Youngblood at 5/7/70s and Len Ford at 5/4/50s, rather better than Lee Roy Selmon’s 3/6/80s, and a lot better than Richard Dent’s 2/4/none and Fred Dean’s 2/4/none)…He’s probably the best Senior DE not in (L.C. Greenwood at 2/6/70s and Gene Brito at 4/5/none should also be in, and Humphrey’s profile is a bit better than either).”
I think to decide Humphrey isn’t deserving, you’ve got to think he’s worse than Eller, Davis, Youngblood, Ford, Selmon, Dent, and Dean — and just I don’t see a good argument for that.
For me, the biggest problem is the voters not getting in Humphrey, Hayes, Creekmur, and Jordan earlier. It has forced the panel to use a Senior slot on someone they didn’t need to — jeez, just get them in already and open a slot for guys like Tingelhoff, Howley, Dilweg, Wistert, etc. Here’s hoping Humphrey (and Guy) get elected this time around.
I strongest hope is that both Reed and Haley get in this year, for no other reason to clear them off the ballot. Having both been in the final 15 for five or more years and have advanced into the final 10 the last two elections, clearly they are qualified HOF candidates that have received plenty of continued support and discussion from the voters. They both have just run up against better candidates (in the view of HOF voters) at their same position in recent years. Getting them elected then opens up slots and debate for other deserving candidates including those on the ballot in recent years and coming on in the near future. Since it appears obvious that they have support let them get elected and move on. I have taken the same view with previous elections when candidates lingered on the ballot year after year.
Hey Bachs, I respect your knowledge and sorry I gave the impression Humphrey didn’t deserve entry. I’d have to go back into the archive but I don’t think I ever voiced strong opposition and don’t feel that way now. In other entry’s recently on topic I’ve said just get him in already. :) I should of said the same.
I remember Humphrey well and in the mid 70’s he was “IT” for Atlanta. The Monday Night crew made sure he got the exposure he deserved. He was also excellent for the Eagles in their rise to prominence. I’m just frustrated that he or anyone has to be nominated twice when the chances are so few for so many deserving players. Do you think what I believe that he has a strong contingent of supporters that might have some sway could be true or is it he is just such an obvious pick over the rest? I know I’ve read that the Atlanta Community is really pumped to get someone into the Hall to represent the Falcons first 30 years or so. So they make a lot of noise down there for their players which is great when so many other great players lack much voice. If that’s the deciding factor that gets someone noticed than something is wrong. Probably a little politics involved I would think. LOL It’s just not clear to me what the heck it takes to get the panels attention but at this point I’m pretty cynical about the whole process. Can you tell? LOL
When you leave the selection of the senior nominees to 9 people, then the actual final nomination to only 5 of those HOF senior committee members, one or two voters can have a huge influence on who gets selected each year as the senior nominees – and also who does not get selected.
I strongly agree with BSLO about Chuck Howley deserving induction. In my opinion he’s the most deserving senior era player not in. I’ll add that he had a Pro Bowl and/or 1st team All Pro selection in 7 different years, since they didn’t always coincide. He was pumping gas after a knee injury ended his brief career as a Bear, then he started getting the itch to play again and the expansion Cowboys, forced to look for talent in unusual places, gave him a chance. Here’s an interesting article about him:
http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Coffin_Corner/06-09-196.pdf
He once caught Browns HoF RB Leroy Kelly from behind despite the latter having a 10 yard head start. He’s a member of the exclusive 20/20 club, players with 20 or more sacks and interceptions. There have only been 5 LBs and 10 players overall to achieve that since sacks became an official stat in the early 1980s, and there was far less passing in Howley’s era.
Howley still ranks #7 in career fumble return yards with 191….
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/fumbles_rec_yds_career.htm
…and he’s totally surrounded by guys from the 1990s and 2000s (everyone else in the top 11). He’s also the only 4-3 LB in the top 10 (Brian Urlacher falls just outside; most of the others are DBs). Going by that PFR list at least, it appears Howley, who retired in 1973, held the NFL record until the late 1990s.
Howley and Bob Lilly were two guys Landry gave special leeway to when it came to deviating from the scheme if instinct dictated. Future 49ers coach Dick Nolan, then a Cowboys assistant, estimated that Howley’s gambles were correct 90% of the time. In my own research, it seems Howley and Lilly were the two members of Doomsday most respected by opponents in the early 1970s.
It would sure be interesting to know who the Senior Committee gives strong consideration to each year. A little transparency along the process would be nice? LOL Currently I have no reason to believe the same level of seriousness is given to the Senior Inductees.
Can’t disagree with Howley being snubbed. I’d like to see Leroy Jordan make it too but that will never happen if Howley can’t even make it. I’d go with Johnny Robinson as the most deserving from the AFL.
I don’t know how you let Ray Guy in and not Kansas City’s Jerrel Wilson? I’ve been in the camp (probably losing side, lol) that doesn’t want a Punter only to have a spot in the HOF. Mainly because punters have been so good for so long now I don’t know how you pick and chose and that goes for PK also. Kickers are hitting on 75% of field goals over 50 yards now and it seems everyone has a really good kicker. I’ll give you Guy did things to help put the focus on him and the position for a while but IMO he was over-hyped by Howard Cosell and the rest. :) So put him in and than I’d put a cork on that one. LOL
Is Nick Mangold a Hall of Fame contender? He is perhaps best center from 2006-present.
I am not so sure that the level of seriousness (or lack there of) is really the fundamental problem with the process by which senior candidates are selected. In my view it is the small number of people actually involved to the point were one or a few people can in fact drive the selection process. I would like to see the selection of seniors (even if done only by a series of elimination votes via mail and with no election meeting) done with a committee of 20-30 people and include football historians, HOF and NFL staff, even current HOFers (drawn each year from a larger pool with selectors changing each year only serving a limited term), but at least get a larger and more diverse group of people involved to remove the bias and favoritism when only 5 people decide the final two senior candidates.
Lee Roy Jordan is tied with Jack Ham for 3rd in career interceptions among NFL LBs (32) and was the franchise tackle leader for decades. Another legitimate candidate for the HoF, but, like Tony P said, if guys like Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson can’t even get in, then it’s hard to see how Jordan will. At least Jordan was a finalist in 1988. For some reason Howley has never gotten a serious look.
Paul, those reforms would be an improvement.
Tony P., re punters: I think the dilemma you mention is one some HoF voters have. Some of course don’t think a dedicated punter even belongs in, while others think there should be some but aren’t sure if Guy should be one of them. It’s an interesting issue.
I think one can make a reasonable case for Guy being the best punter of his time, though. And getting Guy in now while he’s Senior-nominated strikes me as a good thing. But I say don’t stop with Guy, and the next one in should be Tommy Davis. No question Jerrel Wilson belongs in such conversations, though he and Guy only overlap by a couple years. Other punters or punter/PK combo guys who merit consideration include Horace Gillom, Don Chandler, Rohn Stark, Rich Camarillo, and Reggie Roby. And that doesn’t even count Verne Lewellen, who also played at back in the 20s.
Rasputin, re Lee Roy Jordan: I can see the argument that he and Tommy Nobis are the best MLBs not in from the 60s-early 70s. Agreed that OLBs like Howley should get priority consideration, though, given how awash the PFHoF is in MLBs from his time. But I can see the argument for both Nobis and Jordan.
IF Guy gets in this year (and in my mind that is a big IF!) I do not see it leading to the election of many more punters in the future. Just to much competition with HOF quality candidates among the regular position players in the modern and senior pools who the voters will always tend to favor.
It’s probably me but I don’t even notice the Punters anymore except on a rare occasion something goes wrong. LOL Great posts guys. I agree Paul and still don’t think it’s fair if Guy gets in and know other Punter does. I said “put a cork in it” but if Guy gets in they have to open up to be fair and should change the amount of Senior inductees. We’ve talked about that before how the Seniors should have their own night and possible increases in numbers due to backlog. Of course some don’t think there’s much backlog. Must be how the Committee views it. I can’t believe I’m saying but this is one case were being more liberal would be a good thing. Hey, I’m a country boy from Texas! LOL!!
Warren Sapp has been making a total idiot/jerk/jackass of himself (yet again) with his attack this week on Michael Strahan’s resume for the Hall of Fame.
“When you stack it up, he only has four straight Pro Bowls and a mythical sack record that y’all still walk around like it’s something to be praised,” Sapp told the NFL Network. “I mean y’all have got to get off your high horse in New York and speak about the real. And when you really measure him up, he comes up short.”
He also made it clear he’s not afraid to say what he said to Strahan’s face.
“Pick the spot and I’ll come see you and you can have a dose of it,” said Sapp. “If you think that’s what it is, pick the spot and I’ll come see you.”
First of all Sapp, get your facts straight before running your fat mouth. Strahan had seven Pro Bowls and was a 4-time 1st team All-Pro. His career accolades and numbers are more than worthy of a yellow jacket.
Boomer Esiason weighed in strongly on the matter on his radio show.
“He doesn’t realize when he’s insulting people,” Esiason said. “He’s insulted me. He’s insulted Michael Strahan now, he’s insulted other players, and he never ever looks in the mirror to realize what his words and how he delivers his words … and the weight that they carry and the sting that comes along with them.
“And quite frankly, I think he’s an embarrassment to anybody who’s ever played the game of football because he feels like he’s on an island somewhere by himself. And his unprovoked attack on Michael Strahan is ridiculous.”
Sapp clearly has a grudge against Strahan, though I’ve no idea how far back it goes between those two. They did have a public spat last year when Sapp was elected to the HOF and Strahan missed out when both were first ballot candidates.
One of the suggestions I’ve heard for reforming how the Hall of Fame vote is conducted in the future is to allow HOFers a voice and a vote on who is elected. Some of the critics say the media can hold silly grudges or personal dislike against certain candidates for the most trivial of reasons. Turns out certain HOFers are not exempt either from also holding such silly grudges and would offer no improvement on the current voting system. If Sapp believes his comments might have any real influence on Hall of Fame voters this weekend he’s very sadly misguided.
boknows34, agreed fully that Warren Sapp’s comments are the perfect reason why players should not be voting on PFHoF membership. Have seen several articles over time where HoF members stump hard for a marginal-or-worse teammate as a must-elect. And the BBHoF’s Veterans Committee over the years, with Frankie Frisch as Exhibit A, shows such problems all too glaringly.
I think, but I may be wrong, Sapp and Strahan used to appear on NFL Network via live feed for a time during their playing careers where they would argue with each other about football related things. It’s possible that Sapp took it too seriously.
A guy on “Rome” said Sapp wants to be Strahan with the popularity and such. Clearly doesn’t appreciate what Strahan’s accomplishments. He also said his teammate Simeon Rice should be elected before Michael. LOL Sapp has always had issues. :) As far as Sapp being the best DT ever I’ll take John Randle and his heart over Sapp and his bong any day. As great as Sapp was he could of been better and he’s lucky most folks give him a pass on some underachieving years IMO. Also looking at Strahan’s chiseled physic Warren better stay by his pool. Talk about him wanting to come see him! LOL
Someone needs to stick a foot (or fist) in Sapp’s mouth! I would not even rank Sapp in my top 5 of all time DT (Bob Lilly, Joe Greene, Alan Page, Randy White, and Merlin Olson)
Yeah, I strongly opposed Sapp’s first ballot induction.
I totally missed on Sapp’s election last year as I perhaps overvalued Strahan and completely undervalued how the HOF voters would weight Sapp’s selection to two all decade teams (1990s and 2000s). And I know many people are very critical of the selection of all decade teams, including Sapp’s selections, but apparently from what I was hearing and reading after the elections last year it was a deciding factor for many HOF voters.
Personally I have no problem with Sapp being elected into the HOF, but do think he is overrated, did not deserve both all decade team selections, is a complete jerk and a**hole as a player and now on NFL Network, just a big mouth with nothing to add to any discussion, and feel that Strahan should have been elected last year. But alas my opinions carry no weight with the voters, nor do I have much luck in even predicting selections as I am lucky most years to only get 2-3 correct!
Great point and reminder of past greats. I don’t know why I hear folks saying he was the best at the position. I guess it’s natural maybe to think when you’re young that the players you’re watching must be the best. Of those guys you listed Paul I think the “Manster” was the best but than I saw him the most.
I always go back to my thought that the guys that came before were much more revered by the announcers when I grew up compared to today. I think I know how great Bob Lilly and Merlin Olsen was without looking at their stats because they kept telling me. Great announcers like Curt Gowdy mentioned during a game. Really they had too because we were a information deprived people compared to today. LOL Just my opinion but too much information about everything has killed the mystique around the game for many of us. But than I’m probably just getting old and cynical. LOL
I tend to agree with so much information, highlights, stats and hype it is all too easy for the media and fans to be quick to appoint the next “best player ever” or “top 10” with current and recent players that fans are more familiar with. I have been a fan since 1977 so at least my history and interest goes back a few era of the NFL, and generally I tend to have a pretty good appreciation for history including of the NFL (visited the HOF numerous times) even prior to the 1970s decade.
And you are right many of the great players are easily forgotten unless you saw them play, read stories, talk to writers and those who covered the league and actually get to know who many of the great players were. I have same problem whenever a current player breaks a record or retires and there suddenly is this big push to declare him the best or one of the greatest, for example with Ray Lewis who I do think was a great player but in mind certainly not the best or top 5 LB of all time.
Imagine how the old players must feel with all the hoopla around a certain player and the game in general and the money. I’m sure many would see as a good thing but they probably still shake their heads a lot. :) As far as remembering the old players I think the NBA does a pretty good job. Of course in football everyone gets caught up in the x’s and o’s and they are less likely to pay homage to a former great player. You know I think the jocks like Big Ben Davidson and Paul Horning use to do real “Color” commentating not what ever they do today. But I’m sure they wouldn’t be professional enough for today. :) They might slip up and say something off script. LOL I’m one who will miss old Dan Dierdorf who just retired. He really spoke from the ground level even if his mannerisms got a little tired. He’s the last of his breed.
Election meeting just ended at 500p EST look for announcement of results to come out around 700p
Final thoughts:
Brooks, Strahan and Jones are my Top 3.
A WR will take the 4th spot.
The 5th and final modern era spot is the wildcard. I expect it to be any o e of 4 names: Bettis, Haley, Shields, Williams.
The two seniors will make it a class of 7.
My final prediction:
Brooks
Guy
Haley
Humprey
Jones
Reed
Strahan
Announcement at 7pm EST but news is leaking on twitter.
Derrick Brooks has announced on his twitter account he has been elected.
@DBrooks55: Thought of tonight is JOY, HUMILITY, and gratefulness, I’m in the Hall of Fame Now
@ByTimGraham: I can confirm Andre Reed has been informed he’s a member of this year’s Pro Football Hall of Fame class.
Jerome Bettis was apparently not elected.
Saw news on Reed! Great and for Brooks two right so far for me!
Jones and strahan also elected! Four predictions correct so far!
@RVacchianoNYDN: Someone break the news to Warren Sapp … Two sources now tell me that Michael Strahan is in the @ProFootballHOF Class of 2014. #NYG
Williams is in Haley out, there is 2014 surprise
@mortreport: Aeneas Williams in that final 5 along with Derrick Brooks, Walter Jones, Andre Reed & Michael Strahan for @ProFootballHOF
I wish I could say I’m surprised, but as a Cowboys fan, I’m not.
Getting nervious with no positive news yet on either senior candidate!
Opps Goog news both seniors in including guy as first punter!!
Got six of seven predictions correct best for last several years biggest disappointment also only miss haley perhaps two pass rushing DE was deemed enough haley top DL in 2015 need to see cutdown lists from 15 to 10 and to 5
Final 10 not elected were bettis greene haley shields harrison will make strong debate in 2015 with seau and warner in mix as 1st year candidates
The 1992 Bills now have 7 HoFers counting Levy and Wilson, while the 1992 Cowboys have 3. Sure, that’s an accurate depiction of reality. Bang up job, voters. Bang up job.
We started an official 2014 Announcement post at https://www.zoneblitz.com/2014/02/01/official-2014-hall-fame-class-announced/.
92 cowboys will get to five some day soon (haley and johnson) not any others will ever make it
@Paul, we’ve started this discussion on the “official” thread. Jerry Jones might buy his way to a contributor seat at some point…maybe?
I just wanted to take this opportunity (before we dive deep into debates for the 2015 class, starting with the seniors candidate selection later this month) to congratulate the Class of 2014 as they start their weekend long journey to enshrinement, topped by the ceremony tomorrow (Saturday) evening, deserving additions to the HOF one and all.