Photo courtesy of Minnesota Vikings
Long-time Vikings center Mick Tingelhoff has been selected by the Pro Football Hall of Fame senior committee as its candidate for induction in 2015, according to the hall’s website.
A select handful of the overall Hall of Fame voters met early Wednesday to discuss senior candidates and made the announcement early this afternoon.
Tingelhoff played 17 years for the Vikings, starting every regular season and playoff game between 1962 and 1978 — a total of 259. During that stretch he was a six-time Pro Bowl player and Associated Press First Team All Pro five times.
“Mick was a catalyst for our team and one of the most respected players on those teams,” says Bud Grant, Tingelhoff’s coach and a Hall of Famer himself since 1994, in a statement at Vikings.com. “I have no doubt that had he not played center he would have been a Hall of Fame linebacker. He played center with the mentality of a linebacker. Mick’s intangibles were the thing that made him so great. He was a captain the whole time I coached him and guys looked at him as an example of how to do things.”
Every year players like Tingelhoff, former Packers guard Jerry Kramer and Dallas LB Chuck Howley, among others, are debated — both by committee members and readers of this site. For a few years, former players selected by the senior committee were finding it challenging to get the necessary votes to achieve enshrinement, but in recent years it has been a bit easier. Last year’s senior candidates, punter Ray Guy and DE Claude Humphrey, both were enshrined.In 2013, Chiefs DT Curley Culp and Packers LB Dave Robinson also made the grade.
Robinson, also in the Vikings’ release, indicated support for Tingelhoff’s enshrinement.
“Mick is one of the finest centers of all time,” the Green Bay great says. “He was quick, aggressive and played with intensity. His reputation was well known when we were playing. Our defensive coordinator always compared him to [Packers Hall of Fame center Jim] Ringo, that’s how coaches and players felt about him. He certainly deserves consideration for the Hall.”
In previous years, two seniors’ names were forwarded to the full Hall of Fame voter committee. That changed earlier this month when the Hall of Fame board of directors added a contributor category. So for the next five years, starting this year, contributors and seniors will alternate having two candidates while the other has one.
Tingelhoff’s name will automatically be included along with the two contributor candidates who will be announced later this year as finalists, joining up to five modern era nominees who will get an up or down vote from the entire Hall of Fame voting committee. You can debate who should be included in the 2015 modern era group here.
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Great Choice No objections
Yea I would tend to agree as his name is always mentioned among the top candidates each year. And I know some (including a few posters) here would make strong arguments for Howley or Robinson and others, but for me he is a strong candidate and with only one slot this year at least he came from the upper tier of senior candidates.
Tingelhoff is a great choice. At least with the reduction in nominees this year, they picked one of the best options. He’d be in my top 5 along with Kramer, Robinson, Howley and Cliff Harris, and would probably make the short list of most posters on this site.
Don’t like how it’s only one spot, but this should be an easy election for him. He deserves it.
If there’s a silver lining in the number of Senior candidates being reduced from 10 to 7 in the next 5 HOF Classes, I’m hoping that Tingelhoff’s nomination will be the beginning of the HOF taking a more careful approach to their Seniors nominations. There have been a few too many borderline nominations recently so hopefully there’ll be a few more home runs like Mick in the coming years.
Last year saw a defense and special teams player selected and certainly there is greater depth of candidates on defense. They’ll definitely look that way when the seniors go back to having two nominations in 2016, and it would not surprise me if both selections went to a LB and DB as those are the two positions with the longest backlog imo, and they went DL last time with Claude Humphrey The usual names of Howley, Gradishar, Baughan, Curtis, Nobis, Brazile, Robinson, Harris, Meador and Hayes, among those often mentioned here and elsewhere.
Tingelhoff’s nomination may not be good news in the short term for Jerry Kramer. However when the seniors committee eventually decide to choose another offensive player, Kramer and Kooch have probably moved to the tip of the list among OL with WR the other position with a backlog of Branch, Pearson, Shofner etc.
I’m not sure why Tinglehoff is getting the nod over Howley (though I could confidently guess). They have similar career profiles except Howley’s is better. That said, while I think it’s a travesty Howley’s still not in, I do think Tinglehoff merits induction.
I mean it’s tough knowing Robinson has to wait again, but Tingelhoff is one of the best choices the senior committee has made in recent years, no doubt.
“If there’s a silver lining in the number of Senior candidates being reduced from 10 to 7 in the next 5 HOF Classes, I’m hoping that Tingelhoff’s nomination will be the beginning of the HOF taking a more careful approach to their Seniors nominations. There have been a few too many borderline nominations recently so hopefully there’ll be a few more home runs like Mick in the coming years.”
Ditto with that. Curley Culp and Dave Robinson, especially the latter, were selections I just could not get behind.
I understand (without knowing all the details) that Howley was among the top finalists considered this year (cue the attacks now on Gosselin, in 1, 2,3……)
Any knowing where Robinson finished?
Good choice- he should have been in a long time ago. Hopefully next year, some combination of Howley, Robinson, Kramer, Pearson or Hayes gets the nominations.
http://www.profootballhof.com/multimedia/enshrinement-festival/2014/8/20/joe-horrigan-on-mick-tingelhoff-nomination/
Corey the PFHOF does not release the final 15 or even the results of the various elimination votes for the seniors candidate selection, in past such information has been found on other forums with some degree of inside info and plenty of speculation. So we do not know how the other candidates fared.
Along with Howley being in the mix, I was somewhat surprised to read of the level of strong support that existed for Klecko and Brazile
Brazile is a candidate I can get behind. Klecko? Not too big on him. He would’ve been another Culp/Robinson if he were picked.
just curious corey why not on klecko
Like some other senior candidates my view on Klecko is simply that there are other more serving candidates, especially several all decade team members yet to be elected (plus Howley). Not even sure whether I would rank Klecko in my top ten senior candidate list:
LB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s-80s
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s
LB Robert Brazile 5/7/70s
LB- Mike Curtis 2/4/60s-70s
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s
LB- Randy Gradishar 5/7 70s
From readers mail in today’s issue of Tuesdays MMQB column by Peter King on SI website:
ON TINGELHOFF. Great article/segment on Jerry Kramer/Mick Tingelhoff. Your column is the first thing I read every Monday morning, even when I’ve been deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq. I looked up the 2012 article you referenced, and you wrote that back in the 60s the Pro Bowl meant something. Well, if it did, then why is Chuck Howley not in the Hall of Fame? Chuck Howley’s statistics:
Six Pro Bowl selection (1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1971).
Five Associated Press First-team All-Pro selection (1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970).
Has he ever been considered by the HOF Seniors Committee?
—Keith
Good email, Keith, and thanks for reading. I’m not on the seniors committee, but I do know there has been sentiment for Howley over the years, and a strong one at that. You should write a letter to Joe Horrigan at the Hall of ask that it be forwarded to the seniors for their consideration. His address: Joe Horrigan, Pro Football Hall of Fame, 2121 George Halas Drive NW, Canton, OH 44708.
Stronger, much stronger candidates available than Joe Klecko.
agreed with you corey there are stronger much stronger candidates im thinking for next year how about jerry Kramer and chuck howley
I am not so sure about Kramer as I think the seniors committee is “gun shy” about nominating Kramer since he has been turned down repeatedly as a modern candidate then also as a senior candidate. There is some level of public outcry to have him elected but I would think several other seniors may get in over the next few years before Kramer is selected. How about Howley and Robinson?
That’s my backup option paul Howley and Robinson it is
I think we may still be surprised with the seniors candidates for the next few years as I started to read about some surprising (well surprising to me) support for Klecko, Brazile, and Curtis. But since the actual five senior candidates committee members rotate each year, hard to predict year to year trends as with different group of five voters in the room next year the voting down from 15 candidates to 2 finalists is hard to predict. Certainly Kramer, Howley and Robinson are in the mix, but without knowing who the final five were, hard to say who are the closest for election next.
Didn’t Tingelhoff tie for third with Kuechenberg last year? I’m inclined to think Kuechenberg is soon.
Again because the five senior committee members in the room to select the final candidate varies year to year, I would not place much value on the supposed “ranking” of voting results from one year to the next. But clearly Kuechenberg is in the mix along with Howley, Robinson, Kramer and apparently Kleco, Curtis, Brazile, and Gradishar(?), and likely a few others we do not know of. But what order they may end up being selected in over the next few years is hard to predict. If we simply look at the next four elections (as defined by the recent changes to the election procedures) with a total of six senior candidates to be nominated for election from 2016-2019, we are pretty close to knowing which players most likely are in line (unless there are some surprise candidates that rise up from the deep pool).
Thanks for posting that SI question on Howley, Paul. Hopefully the number of people asking such questions or making such statements continues to grow.
I remain very optimistic that Howley will be elected soon (would of course prefer sooner rather then later), but remain concerned that his candidacy is not getting enough traction or attention and the logjam of top senior candidates at LB (five LBs in my list of top ten senior candidates) may continue to hurt him into the future.
my senior nominee lb’s would be Brazile Baughan Curtis Howley who would be your fifth paul
I would have to think Gradishar too. I would rank Gradishar ahead of Curtis.
I could see the senior committee pushing for 2 defensive players next year. I would love to see Howley and Meador get a shot. I certainly believe that guys like Kramer, Robinson and Kuechenberg belong, but I like seeing guys go to the finalist stage that have never been considered before, even as modern-era guys.
It makes you wonder how things would have been different if they had put the semifinalist stage in much earlier. I highly doubt that guys like Tingelhoff, Howley, Baughan, etc. would have been this far overlooked, and it’s highly possible that players like Cliff Harris, Gradishar, Greenwood and Humphrey would have gotten in as modern-era guys given that their cases would have been considered earlier and more often.
Well the committee seems to favor defensive players more. Tingelhoff is only the third senior on the offensive side of the ball to be nominated in the 2010s decade, and should he be elected, and I have no reason to think why he wouldn’t or shouldn’t since he clearly belongs, he would only be the second to be inducted. There was Ray Guy in 2014 on special. Everybody else: Dick LeBeau, Chris Hanburger, Les Richter, Jack Butler, Curley Culp, Dave Robinson and Claude Humphrey have been all of the defensive players who got picked by the seniors and every single one of them got elected.
After what happened with Stanfel two years ago, I do have a little bit of doubt in regards to Tingelhoff. There’s no way somebody with a 5/5/ profile and an All Decade selection should have been denied to Canton once, let alone twice. I’m hoping all of the regular voters do the right thing and put Tingelhoff in, but I’ll be a cynic until it’s official.
The only thing I can imagine that would explain Stanfel being voted down twice is his short career (73 games, 7 seasons). Everything else about his candidacy is solid…he even has 2 championship rings. Tingelhoff definitely doesn’t have that issue with 240 games (0 missed) and 17 seasons under his belt. Hopefully a long career on consistently good teams, plus a solid post-season award resume is enough to put him over.
I’d be shocked if he didn’t get in.
I do not think Tingelhoff will have any problem getting in
Hopefully not. After all, you cannot spell Tingelhoff without the letters HOF. He deserves it.
Does the senior committee look at AFL only players anymore since they let Floyd Little in the HOF. I know they took a little heat on that one. It seems as though on sites like this Larry Grantham and Houston Antwine are never mentioned and I think both are better than some of the players that have been nominated in the past.
I think they took heat because critics didn’t think Little as a whole belonged in Canton. I don’t think it had to do with him playing in the AFL, though he did spend more time in the NFL anyway.
The AFL existed in one decade, there are plenty of other NFL players from the last several decades – especially since 1970 to be considered as senior candidates. I do not think it is as much as avoiding AFL players, but that the pool of post merger NFL players since 1970s is just much more deeper, and with only 1 or 2 slots per year, hard for any player to get to the top of the list. Johnny Robinson is certainly in the top and considered by many as the next AFL player to get nominated for election, yet he has been near the top for several years. And as someone with a casual understanding and appreciation for the history of pro football and the HOF, including the top senior candidates, the fact that I am not very familiar at all with the qualifications of Grantham and Antwine should suggest their chances and support among the HOF senior committee voters are pretty slim.
The modern era list for the Class of 2015 has been announced. The countdown has begun. Who are your 25 semi finalists?
http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2014/9/16/modern-era-nominees-for-class-of-2015/
Morton Anderson
Steve Atwater
Jerome Bettis
Tim Brown
Isaac Bruce
Don Coryell
Roger Craig
Terrell Davis
Kevin Greene
Charles Haley
Torry Holt
Marvin Harrison
Edgerrin James
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
John Lynch
Clay Matthews
Kevin Mawae
Karl Mecklenburg
Orlando Pace
Junior Seau
Will Shields
Steve Tasker
Kurt Warner
Tony Dungy
Solid list Paul.
I think you’ll end up with around 23 or so of those names progressing. Perhaps a Joe Jacoby, Steve Wisniewski or Albert Lewis might sneak in.
Yea I think it is pretty easy to get the first 20-22, but real crap shoot when it comes to the last few slots. But truth of the matter, regardless any of new semi-finalists and first time eligible, guessing that the final 15 will be pretty easy to get. Any idea when the HOF will announce the two contributor nominees?
I have not heard anything specific on when the 2 Contributor candidates will be announced.
When the change was announced back in August I though I read that they would be announced in November, but nothing definite on schedule from PFHOF
So who would be the two contributor candidates? DeBartolo and Modell?
or Tagliabue?
Devin Hester is now the all time return TD leader. His HOF stock is rising.
No one has scored more returns than him this decade let alone what he did before that.
He’ll have quite the hill to climb. I think eventually he gets elected, but it may not be for a very long time.
Tagliabue is a possibility, but I don’t know if he gets in for a while.
Mark Schlereth thinks everyone is getting in first ballot.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11540363/kurt-warner-junior-seau-15-first-year-candidates-nominated-pro-football-hall-fame
First ballot chances?
Seau 100%
Warner 90%
Pace 80%
Law 70%
Good grief!! I’d say Pace is battling with Shields for one spot. Seau is a lock, but Warner should be 15-20% and Law 1%
Yeah, Law has a HOF resume but first ballot? Don’t see it.
How about getting Darren Woodson in the semi-finals this time?
Kurt Warner,Tim Brown,Isaac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, Jerome Bettis, Roger Craig, Terrell Davis, Edgerrin James, Kevin Mawae(Go Jets) , Orlando Pace , Will Shields , Steve Wisniewski, Charles Haley, Kevin Greene, Karl Mecklenburg, Junior Seau, Zach Thomas, Steve Atwater , Ty Law, John Lynch, Darren Woodson,Morten Anderson, Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy.
Gosselin, Judge Named to Contributor Committee
Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge of the Talk of Fame Network were named to the committee Friday along with Howard Balzer, Jarrett Bell, John Clayton, Peter King, Sal Paolantonio, Jim Trotter and Charean Williams.
“It’s and honor and a privilege to be a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee,” said Judge, a 30-year veteran of NFL coverage. “But to be selected to this committee, especially in the first year of the category, is something special and something I’m looking forward to. I have great admiration for all those involved. This is privilege.”
The committee will select two contributor candidates who will automatically be added to the list of finalists for the Class of 2015. Those two contributors will be voted separate and apart from the modern-era candidates. They will be subjected to a yes/note and need 80 percent of the vote to gain enshrinement.
There are currently only 19 contributors in the Hall of Fame in capacities other than playing or coaching. Eddie DeBartolo Jr., and Paul Tagliabue have been the most recent contributor finalists who have been passed over in the selection process.
Coaches remain lumped in the modern-era category with players but commissioners, owners, referees, personnel directors and scouts. If you are off the field and outside the coaching box, you are considered a contributor.
Man, I completely missed the prelim list when it came out a couple of weeks ago! Some of the names on this list are almost hilarious (Jon Jansen, Thomas Everett), but as has been stated before, it’s all determined by mail-in nominations. I also completely forgot that Jevon Kearse even existed…he was probably one of the hardest falls from grace I have seen in my years of watching football, and he went out with nothing more than a whimper after such a great start to his career.
I don’t really see anyone previously overlooked that popped up on the list this year with a good chance at breaking into the top 25, so I get the feeling this will be a fairly stable list from last year with first-year eligibles plugging most of the vacated spots. My guesses would be:
Kurt Warner
Tim Brown
Isaac Bruce
Marvin Harrison
Torry Holt
Jerome Bettis
Roger Craig
Terrell Davis
Edgerrin James
Joe Jacoby
Kevin Mawae
Orlando Pace
Will Shields
Steve Wisniewski
Charles Haley
Kevin Greene
Karl Mecklenburg
Junior Seau
Steve Atwater
John Lynch
Morten Andersen
Steve Tasker
Don Coryell
Tony Dungy
Jimmy Johnson
If I had to pick a couple of potential surprises, I’d go with Zach Thomas, Dick Vermeil and Eric Allen.
I can’t see Ty Law making it to the semifinalist list. I usually err more on the side of inclusion when it comes to hall of famers, but to me Ty Law is just not worthy. I know he was a huge part of the Patriots defense when they won multiple Super Bowls, and was the best member of their secondary but I always thought he was extremely overrated (for me, almost on a Jerome Bettis/Hines Ward level). He was one of the best ballhawking CB’s I have seen play, but his gambling nature meant he got burnt a lot…especially later in his career after his physical coverage tactics were outlawed. Objectively, his case looks good on paper, so he probably gets in eventually and it’s hard to knock someone who had a rule named after him, but man it’s hard for me to overlook the fact that the Patriots’ pass defense was well above average without him in 2004, the fact that he only made ANY All-Pro team in 1998 and 2003 (easily his best years), and that he was mostly a below-average coverage corner for the last 5 years of his career.
With so many deserving safeties waiting to get into the Hall, I hope that’s where the hall voters take their secondary priorities to next when they cast their votes.
There are plenty of players with the career numbers of Ty Law who are not currently in the HOF including some that have yet to even get close (Lester Hayes comes to mind first), so I foresee a long extended wait for Law.
Tom Brady will not be the only patriot from their dominating runs to get in (I count Moss as a Viking), I believe Law gets in three or fours years after he makes a semi-finalist list. The only other patriots that may get in are Vinatieri and Wilfork and both of those are maybe’s.
I agree with BSLO on Ty Law. There are too many more deserving DBs not yet in. At best Law should be a long waiting senior candidate.
So Seymour doesn’t get in from those great Patriot teams?
I think Seymour will get in, not as 1st time selection but in time
Ben Roethlisberger is approaching 100 wins as starter. Is he on track to be first ballot?
With only two pro bowls (no all pro), and not likely to put up any top ten career or season passing numbers, I think that without a 3rd SB win he is going to have a hard time. His case reminds me a lot of Phil Simms, who has yet to even get into the final 15 semifinalists.
Phil Simms played in a different era, but we are not by any means comparing the era of the 50s-60s to now. Defenses got away with a ton more back in that time. Ben has 27 more TDs and 33 less ints. I’m not down playing what Phil did but his career high in passing TDs is 22. Ben has seasons of 32-11,28-14 and 26-12. Phil’s top seasons are 22-18, 22-20, 21-22. And they have a difference of 8.1% in completion %. And Phil didn’t start nor played in the other SB. Ben played in all three and won 2. Phil went 6-4 in playoffs Ben went 10-4. Ben’s numbers don’t look the part but he made play after play in playoffs for them to make and win the SBs. Ben is showing no signs of declining. He is on pace for over 4,300 yards. Phil has done 4k 1 time and it was 4,044.
I was not referring to a direct numbers to numbers, era vs era, comparison of Phil to Ben and which should get in over the over, which is not fair or justified,just that compared to their peers and relative to the era they played in both fall in that tier of QBs below the top level from their era. And both without top career numbers, and lack of pro bowls/all pros, hurts their respective cases for the HOF. Not to say Ben never gets in, but at this point in his career (without potential future successful years) he is likely to have a rough road to election given how voters and the voting process has tended to judge QBs.
Tom Brady , Peyton Manning , Aaron Rodgers, and Drew Brees are going to retire as 4 of top 10-12 QBs ever. It’s unfair for Ben to be punished for not getting APs when he has to deal with those. His passer rating is same formula as everyone else in his era(and every era). Ben’s 92.9 passer rating ranks 9th all time , higher than Joe Cool himself, just 2.3 less than Brees and 2.6 less than Tom Brady,
If you are looking at the top QBs (or any position) All Pro selections are important, and yes by that measure he falls behind four other HOF quality QBs. I am not saying he never gets in but there are going to be plenty of other All Pro players and quality HOF candidates from the 2000s/2010s from every position on the ballot during the same time frame as Ben, and by that and other measures he is going to fall short for a number of years. History has shown that even with selection on all decade teams, being the 4 or 5 best player at your position during your era results in a long road to the HOF.
Yes, I’m just saying among QBs Ben is top 30-40 best ever given SB titles, stats, etc. Look how many are in HOF. He will get in no doubt.
Your first post asked whether he would be 1st ballot selection, which is highly unlikely given his current career numbers, awards etc… But he has a chance to get in, eventually, but it may take a long time 10 years+. There are already 23 modern era QBs in the HOF with several more to get in from the 1990s and 2000s before Beth becomes eligible, not sure he would rank on any list of top 30, but perhaps closer to 40 all time.
He is a first ballot with 300 TDs with no more than 180 ints. Doesn’t need another SB win to be first ballot.
He has 61 TDs-24 ints 2012-present. He certainly can do 300 TDs and no more than 160-165 the pace he is on.
Again you are looking at his potential future numbers and trying to protect forward. At 32 it would really depend how much longer he plays and at what level, if he can get to 300 TDs with another 3-4 quality seasons, it will help his case. But with no all pro teams and only 2 pro bowls he will end up on a ballot with more qualified players (perhaps including other QBs) that will delay his HOF election. Voters are increasingly looking at the offensive era numbers since 2000 and discounting many traditional career numbers of potential HOFers (10,000 yards rushing, 900 career receptions) will do same for QB career numbers. Just from his era four Qbs already have 300+ passing TDs, and chance that another four could reach that mark by retirement. I would not be assured that even with 300 career passing TDs alone he gets in 1dt ballot.
I agree with Paul. Roethlisberger is a borderline HoF candidate with good but not great stats for his era. He doesn’t rank in the top 10 in yards/game, completion percentage, career TDs, or career yards, and is barely in the top 10 in passer rating, playing in by far the most passing stat inflated era in history. He currently doesn’t even have a 2 to 1 career TD to INT ratio. His biggest claim to Canton is winning two SBs on a team carried by its defense. His career Super Bowl passer rating is a dismal 69.9, averaging 214 y/g in three showings for 3 TDs and 5 INTs. Lacking spectacular stats one turns to accolades, but only 2 Pro Bowls leaves him short there. There are already several QBs from his era with far stronger claims to Canton, so it’s difficult to see a first ballot argument for him, if much of a HoF case at all.
Phillip Rivers is starting to make things interesting for his candidacy. He is on pace for MVP,first team AP, and SB chance. He can play another 4-5 years and reach 300+ TDs, 50,000+ passing yards the way he is currently playing.
Surely Rivers is in a similar boat as Romo, needing a Super Bowl win to get in.
I was thinking same about Romo, but for both not sure whether one SB will be enough without more pro bowls and a few all pro selections. As I do not see either putting up huge single season or career passing numbers and possible time is running out for both of them, no assurances that either will play well past age 35. Just seeing Brady and Manning continue to perform at a high level in their mid 30s and later, we forget how rare success late career success really is in the NFL.
I think Pro Bowls are less relevant in this era, where the NFL has turned a third of the vote into a click bait scam and even the players seem more driven by hype and reputation than substance. Romo was screwed out of Pro Bowl status multiple seasons. For example, in 2011 Romo had a passer rating of 102.5, throwing 31 TDs and only 10 INTs, and somehow didn’t make the Pro Bowl, but I think it’s fair to call that an elite season. I suspect he’ll increase his current tally of three before all is said and done though. I’m not sure which metrics you have in mind with “huge”, but for his career Romo is currently averaging 273 yards/game, a 96 passer rating, a 64.8% completion rate, and 7.8 yards/attempt, all of which are among the top few in history. His volume stats, 31,075 yards, 219 TDs, and 106 INTs, while not earth shattering due to him becoming a starter late, are on pace to end up somewhere respectable even for this era. The bottom line is that his career volume totals will at least be good enough to not count against him while his efficiency ratings are among the greatest of all time. Then there’s the eyeball test, which includes a highlight reel filled with spectacular, uniquely Romoesque heroic plays. And stories illustrating intangible qualities like toughness, such as the time he returned to the game against San Francisco on the road with what we later learned were broken ribs and a punctured lung to deliver a great comeback win, handing a 49er team with a vicious defense their only loss for most of the season. If he validates his stats and regular season heroics with a Super Bowl win he should make Canton, and will if the process is remotely fair by then.
Thoughts:
-I think Ty Law gets in but waits a good while. Definitely think Richard Seymour gets in as well, probably waiting a few years.
-of QBs from the 00s, the top ones will be seen as P. Manning, T. Brady, B. Favre, D. Brees, and K. Warner — and I think they’ll all get elected to the HoF. But it’s not unheard-of to have more than 5 QBs from a particular time get in, and Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning might squeak in (the two SB wins won’t hurt any, and the longer they play, the better their chances) — and their cases look very similar so far. Philip Rivers might be the odd man out unless he wins a SB or two. I see Aaron Rodgers as a ’10s QB and not so direct a comparison.
-good question about relevancy of Pro Bowls nowadays. While it’s true the fans do get one-third of the vote, one could easily ask if the squads would have been much different if fans didn’t get a vote. Maybe, but I’m not so sure.
Oh, and Mick Tingelhoff is an excellent nomination, very ong overdue. Here’s hoping he gets elected.
All I will add about pro bowl selections, is that even when going back decades there were also many “questionable” selections by members of the media or players, not so sure it is any better or worse in recent years with partial voting given to fans. If there is any recent “watering down” it is the increasing number of subs as many players opt out, plus those from the SB teams not playing in the pro bowl since it is now scheduled before and not after the SB. Either way pro bowls are one measure of a quality career, especially for those positions where numbers are not as easily determined. Pro bowls, especially for players with over 5+appearances, can help sort out quality players among their peers.
The Super Bowl players getting skipped over as Pro Bowl alternates since the schedule change significantly impacts the award’s meaningfulness. I think an elite season is an elite season, whether it has the “Pro Bowl” tag or not. Pro Bowls shouldn’t be ignored, but they aren’t necessarily the end all be all either.
I’ll add that the “fan vote” isn’t really a meaningful measure of fan opinion. That would require one man one vote. So it hasn’t really been given to the fans, at least not in aggregate, and fans in general shouldn’t be blamed for their supposed choices. The current set up rewards small groups of fans working around the clock to vote for their players over and over again without regard to merit.
Romo’s career passer rating currently ranks 5th in NFL history. The other guys in the top 8 are all already in the HoF (Steve Young) or were listed as likely to get in by bachslunch. Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Kurt Warner, Ben Roethlisberger, and Joe Montana all rank below Romo.
Except he did say Rivers might have to win a SB or two.
On an admittedly very cursory look, Romo and Rivers appear fairly similar. FWIW, they have career passer ratings of 96.0 and 97.0 respectively (at least per the PFR site), both lack postseason success, and both became starters the same season (1996). Interestingly, while Roethlisberger and E. Manning began their careers the same year (1994) as starters and both have won two SBs, the former has a much better career passer rating (92.6 vs. 81.7) — so Big Ben has the upper hand between these two.
Barring injury, they all have should have several years ahead of them, though, and things can change — it’s really too early to say yet for them. If all four had their careers end tomorrow, I don’t think I’d support any of them for the HoF.
No idea how any of them will fare in a period-adjusted look after they retire, either.
Also, good point about the SB teams not sending people to the Pro Bowl — that does make some difference from before.
I know we have been down the road of this discussion before, but HOF voters tend to be very selective and cautious after electing the first 4-5 top players at a position from any era, including QB. Many top QBs from the 1960s, 70s and 80s have yet to elected and many have the same types of qualifications as Rivers and Romo (some great seasons, well positioned in career numbers and wins, but lacking either championships or huge career or record setting season numbers). Rivers and Romo are going to face that situation even if they win one SB. Getting QBs elected into the HOF with no championships is rare with especially in the SB era, with noted exceptions, for example Fouts and Marino who both set season and /or career passing records.
I don’t see why one Super Bowl win wouldn’t be enough for Romo or Rivers to earn induction, given their historically great passer ratings, completion percentages, and other stats. Here’s another list:
Career Yards/Game Started
Brees – 276
Rodgers – 272
Romo – 271 (not counting the 2006 game when he replaced Bledsoe)
P. Manning – 271
Brady – 257
Rivers – 254
Roethlisberger – 238
E. Manning – 233
Paul, re this:
“HOF voters tend to be very selective and cautious after electing the first 4-5 top players at a position from any era, including QB.”
that’s true for some positions but not all. QBs have tended to be more generously represented depending on the era. For those listed as modern-era QBs at the HoF website we have by decade (assuming 4 or more years played as something akin to a starter, and note that some QBs appear in two decades):
40s: 2 (Graham, Waterfield)
50s: 5 (Graham, Layne, Tittle, Unitas, Van Brocklin)
60s: 8 (Blanda, Dawson, Jurgensen, Namath, Starr, Tarkenton, Tittle, Unitas)
70s: 7 (Bradshaw, Dawson, Fouts, Griese, Namath, Staubach, Tarkenton)
80s: 6 (Elway, Fouts, Kelly, Marino, Montana, Moon)
90s: 7 (Aikman, Elway, Kelly, Marino, Moon, Young, with Favre to join them).
Five 00s QBs (Brady, Brees, Favre, Manning, Warner) would be the lowest total in a decade since the 50s, and it’s not impossible that one or more players might join them — at least historically, that makes some sense.
And that has been true of RBs as well:
40s: 1 (Motley)
50s: 8 (Gifford, Johnson, Matson, McElhenny, Moore, Perry, Trippi, Walker)
60s: 7 (Brown, Hornung, Johnson, Kelly, Moore, Sayers, Taylor)–Gifford played 3 of his 4 1960s years as a flanker.
70s: 7 (Csonka, Harris, Kelly, Little, Peyton, Riggins, Simpson)
80s: 7 (Allen, Campbell, Dickerson, Dorsett, Harris, Peyton, Riggins)
90s: 8 (Allen, Dickerson, Faulk, Martin, Sanders, Smith, Thomas, with Bettis to join them)
That will likely become 5 for the 2000s with Faulk, Martin, and Smith already in and Bettis and James to join them), the fewest since the 40s.
HoF voters have also been more stingy with other positions, such as center and TE.
I’d guess that fewer RBs and more QBs than before get inducted from the 2000s, given the way the game has changed. I would add LaDainian Tomlinson to the likely to get in list though.
Given the passing offenses it would appear that more QBs, WRs (and perhaps even TEs) from the post 2000 era are going to get into the HOF. Or the other trend we are already seeing with the 900+ reception WRs from the 1990s as HOF voters are questioning the relative value of passing/receiving numbers since so many more players are getting higher season and career numbers. Of course it does not mean that those QBs and WRs are better than players from previous era, just that the game is allowing them to drive up higher numbers. So perhaps it is not that more QBs and WRs deserve the HOF but that the focus should remain only on the top players of the era and simply not everyone with larger career numbers, which is I believe the issue that is hurting Tim Brown – top numbers, but just how many more WRs from his era should be elected? In your count of QBs and RBs the numbers start to get a little inflated as for players who cross decades are in fact counted twice (Dawson, Marino, Moon, Allen, Young etc…). I think a more true reflection of those players elected from each decade would be to only list them in the decade in which their impact (numbers or SBs) occurred. Thus the revised list looks more like this:
50s: 5 (Graham, Layne, Tittle, Unitas, Van Brocklin)
60s: 5 (Blanda, Dawson, Jurgensen, Namath, Starr)
70s: 5 (Bradshaw, Fouts, Griese, Staubach, Tarkenton)
80s: 2 (Marino, Montana)
90s: 6 (Aikman, Elway, Kelly, Moon, Young, Favre).
00s: 4 (Brady, Brees, Manning, Warner)
Yes we can debate which decade some of these QBs are assigned to, but my point is if you stick with a rule of assigning them to one dominant decade, suddenly you see 4 or 5 per decade era being more common. Meaning for 2000s the debate beyond the four obvious listed QBs becomes a little more interesting. I am not saying Rivers and/or Romo do not get elected, but if they, plus Ben R and E Manning end their careers and are seen as mainly 2000s QBs, at this stage based on SBs (which is an important QB number in the SM era), appears that Be and E Manning may get into HOF before and perhaps at expense of Rivers or Romo. Of course how all four (and any other QBs) play out the 2010 decade may ultimately determine if and when they get elected and what decade they “represent”.
Of course the above Romo/Rivers discussion was predicated on one or both of them winning at least one Super Bowl. I think a Romo or Rivers with even just one SB win trumps an Eli or Ben with two. Romo and Rivers’ stats are too superior to reasonably justify leaping one of those other two over them once they have the validation of a ring.
Romo/Rivers with 1 SB vs Ben/Eli with 2 SBs, will be an interesting debate for the HOF voters in determining the beyond 4 QB(s) from the 2000/early 2010 era, especially if two or more of these four appear on the ballot at the same times. Could look a lot like the recent/current WR debates with much vote splitting and indecision among many voters as to how to “rank” them. I do not believe that it will be as easy and clear cut for many HOF voters to give the advantage to Romo/Rivers with 1 SB, keeping in mind that the voting steps to get into the final 15 and then the 80% level for election.
I also said earlier I was talking about a process that had become fair by that point. I think Romo/Rivers MERIT induction with at least one SB win over those other two, As HoF history shows, that certainly doesn’t mean they WILL be inducted. I just don’t see a reasonable argument for inducting a guy with 2 SB wins who was carried by his defense in squeaker wins and has grossly inferior stats over a guy with 1 SB win and superior stats who has mostly carried his team over the years. If it’s a logjam, it will be because too many voters are still unreasonable. Eli Manning still has a sub 60 career completion percentage, which is incredibly bad for this era, and Roethlisberger has a terrible 69.9 career SB passer rating. They don’t even have a Pro Bowl advantage, Manning having 3 so far and Roethlisberger only 2.
Yea, I am just saying that the debates over QBs on the ballot starting circa 2020-2023 will be pretty interesting as very likely that many of not all of the 2000s/early 2010s QBs could retire in next 2-4 years, could end up with 4-7 QBs with a few overlapping on the ballot for several years.
Warner (2015 or beyond) and Favre (2016) will represent the first QB(s) elected since 2006 (9 year absence, longest in HOF history), then will have to wait until at least 2021 (another 4 or 5 years after 2016 or 2017) for first of many 2000s/early 2010s QBs to be first eligible, depending how much longer beyond 2015 that Manning and Brady play, followed soon after by Brees, Ben, Eli, Romo and Rivers). Again mid 2020s HOF elections with those HOFs and many other 2000s/early 2010 players will be very interesting.
Contributors committee is meeting tomorrow (Weds Oct 22nd) to select two nominees for 2015 PFHOF finalists ballot (they will consider 11 semi-finalists).
http://mmqb.si.com/2014/10/21/pro-football-hall-of-fame-contributor-committee/
Does Rivers absolutely have to win a Super Bowl? I would definitely vote him over Roethlisberger and likely over Eli, too.
If Rivers retired today along with Beth and Eli, there is no chance he gets into the HOF, certainty not over two QBs each with 2 SBs (not sure Ben and Eli would have an easy path to HOF). With no all pro selections and only 5 PBs, Rivers will need to put up some more quality seasons very soon, top 5 career passing numbers and/or win a SB to get in HOF. At 32 I am not sure how much more time he (and Romo) has, as QBs playing into their mid to late 30s in this era without major declines in productivity and health are not that common – even though we are seeing it from Brady(37) and Manning (38). I think Rivers and Romo are quickly running out of time with a need for SB to have chance to get in to HOF.
Found this article which seemingly has a list of the 11 Contributor finalists this year. Two will come up for election, and many are good options:
http://www.wptz.com/sports/expect-controversy-on-pro-football-hof-contributor-selection/29251226
The list apparently includes
-Paul Tagliabue
-Eddie DeBartolo
-Pat Bowlen
-Art Modell
-Art McNally
-Steve Sabol
-Gil Brandt
-Bill Polian
-Bobby Beathard
-George Young
-Ron Wolf
Am less taken with the owners and commissioner options, myself — but we’ll see who gets the nod.
This must be the list the Peter King referred to in his column yesterday, but said the PFHOF did not want the committee members to release the list.hmmmmm.
Given recent HOF elections and the names of contributors who have appeared in the 25 semi-finalist and 15 finalist lists none of these are surprising to me, including owners and Tagliabue who have ready been discussed as potential HOFers during last several elections, and could very well end up among the two finalists selected for 2015, when announced within next few days. Likely that over the next five years the eight slots assigned to contributors for the annual HOF finalist list will come from this group.
Just saw a post on Twitter from Peter King that the 2015 contributor nominees are Bill Polian and Ron Wolf
After reading all the comments, I am surprised how easily Joe Klecko is dismissed. A pro bowler at 3 DL positions.Klecko and Long are considered the two most dominant Defensive Lineman of their era. Every offensive lineman that faced him thinks he belongs in the HOF. Not to mention a Defensive Player of the Year award. It is impossible to understand a few
mentions of Stanfell ( Bill Stanfill,Dolphins), good not great. Certainly not dominant.
Klecko’s play elevated the players all around him. There are many in the HOF that benefited from playing with a few other great players which always tilts the perception of their careers. Better late than never. Joe Klecko deserves or rather has earned his place in Canton.
Stanfill of the Dolphins) as a deserving candidate. Yes he was a very good player but good is not great. Stanfill never approached the dominance level that Klecko did wherever he lined up. It is a shame that this process is so flawed. Too much consideration is given to the team’s they played on , as well as the overall success of that team. Clearly a guy that had very good players around him benefits from from a tilted perception of his own career. I am not saying many of those players are not deserving. To me
Not Bill Stanfill of the Dolphins. Dick Stanfel, a guard.
Is it too early to get together a list of senior candidates?
be nice if this blog hosts started a 2016 HOF topic or 2016 senior candidate topic as current 2015 HOF topics are getting deep in posts to wade through.
Paul,
We’ll be posting our HOF 2016 predictions in the next couple days. Thx.
AT
Jets have snubs: Larry Grantham, Winston Hill, Joe Klecko, and Mark Gastineau. Klecko and Grantham are the biggest.