We’ll have more on these selections later, obviously, but day jobs and travel are getting in the way at the moment…
But we wanted to provide a space to start discussion on the 2018 Senior nominees for the Pro Football Hall of Fame: LB Robert Brazile and G Jerry Kramer.
Both of these guys have been oft-discussed at this site. It seems to me, without having a full list in front of me, they are quality candidates, particularly in comparison with some more recent offerings.
What are your thoughts?
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Two of the best in the Senior pool. May they both make it.
Both were in my top 15 so I think selections are great and support
I ranked Kramer 3rd and Brazile 10th. It’s so great the committee went with two upper echelon choices instead of somebody underwhelming.
Jerry Kramer is a great selection, but this should’ve happened years ago. My problem is NFL voters that spoke on the original NFL Network’s top 10 NFL Players not in the Hall of Fame claimed there is enough Lombardi era Packers in the Hall Fame.
My problem with that is Dave Robinson was inducted as a Lombardi era Green Bay Packers after the Original Top 10 NFL players not the Hall of Fame aired. That showed me that there is some type of a bias against Jerry Kramer that I couldn’t quite understand outside of possible Jealousy of Kramer’s old best selling book “Instant Replay”.
I have no issues with Robert Brazile. I thought the Problem with Robert was his career was a bit short in the Voters eyes and not having a Super Ring.
Fine choices both, and am hoping neither has any problems getting elected. Am very pleased with the committee.
Peter King on Twitter seemed to indicate that he had issues with Kramer, may foreshadow a heated debate at the selection meeting
that will be an interesting storyline at the selection meeting along with the storyline of owens vs moss
I really hope that Kramer gets in. His omission has always been very confusing, especially since he’s been a finalist so many times. Personally he’s #1 on my senior list. Brazile wasn’t the biggest snub at LB, but I’d still put him in my top 15-20 and there is a big backlog at the position. I think the committee did a great job this year.
bslo if we are going by 70s linebackers my top 4 in no part order would be howley gradishar brazile curtis
I would say that among LB’s in the senior pool, I would go Howley, Baughan, Gradishar, Brazile, and Grantham as my top 5, in the order. Beyond those 5 I think you could go a number of ways with guys like Nobis, Curtis, Jordan, Fortunato, Bergey, Russell, etc. making up the next tier.
Overall, Howley, Baughan and Gradishar would make my top 10 senior list while Brazile and Grantham would make my top 20.
Both players are Hall worthy and Hopefully 2020 will take care of some of that back log in the seniors pool at the Linebacker position. With Kramer being nominated Howley and Robinson now go at the top of the list for Senior nominees.
Peter King seems to inquire why he’s good enough now when the people who saw him play didn’t think he was good enough in all of his years as a finalist.
My response to that is he is looking at the perspective of writers who saw him play, but he is neglecting the players who played against him who think he is Hall of Fame worthy. Not to mention guards often get overlooked and neglected. Just ask Alan Faneca. I think there’s a strong case to be made that Ed Budde, Walt Sweeney and John Niland are all Canton worthy, yet it’s unknown if they’ll ever be nominated, let alone when.
Kramer was last nominated in 1997. Keep in mind a lot has changed since then. These aren’t the same voters from decades ago. Who knows why he was kept out? Paul told me a couple of years ago how political things were back in the day and that is a reason Tingelhoff was excluded for so long. Everybody has their player they want to see get in. For me it’s Robinson. For Rasputin it’s Howley. Kramer has had a movement I’ve never seen with anybody else.
I’d like to think the voters are coming around to their senses more. Heck, they finally put Ray Guy in once he was nominated. Maybe it helped that he was voted on separately from the other modern era players and that’s why he got elected.
If you were voted a five time First Team All Pro, an All Decade member and the only guard on the 50th Anniversary Team, you belong in Canton, and you can’t use the number of Hall of Fame teammates as an excuse for exclusion.
Regarding Brazile, I will admit he was behind Howley, Baughan and Gradishar in my rankings, but complaining about his selection just because he wasn’t first on my list would be crying over spilled milk. I think there is a big linebacker drop off after Brazile in the pool. The Senior voters, though they did an excellent job with both this year, have also been unwise in recent years. Just imagine if they nominated Brazile instead of Dave Robinson for the Class of 2013. Wouldn’t that have been a much better, more efficient choice? Then they could’ve nominated a Howley or a Johnny Robinson for this year and it would’ve been much more effective.
If memory serves, Dr. Z was not supportive of Kramer, saying he wasn’t even the best guard on his own team (apparently referring to Fuzzy Thurston). My guess is that Peter King remembers this and derives his thoughts from it. What Dr. Z probably didn’t like about Kramer were issues with his pass blocking — there’s a good bit of detailed film study on Kramer over at Ken Crippen’s site that suggests this was his Achilles heel. But Kramer definitely has good postseason honors (5/3/60s) and he was top drawer in everything else (pulling, trap blocking, run blocking, and screen pass blocking) — plus he gets some extra credit as the team PK for a couple seasons. I think it’s all definitely enough to qualify Kramer for Canton. FWIW, he grades out notably better than Dick Stanfel at Ken’s site.
When was the last time Dr. Z was relevant in regards to the Hall of Fame vote? He’s not one of the voters anymore.
Dr. Z was widely regarded as a film study expert and my understanding is that he was a respected and influential member of the voting committee back then. I’m pretty sure he and King overlapped as committee members for a while. Whether Dr. Z was right all the time is of course another matter — I’ve never understood his heavy HoF championing of Bob Kuechenberg, for example.
Yeah, I think I will take Kramer over Kuechenberg.
Dr Z apparently had great influence in HOF meetings and I think he was vehemently against Ken Stabler. I also remember he was a big fan of Klecko.
Outside of Peter King how many of today’s HOF committee were voting back in 1997 when Kramer was rejected as a Seniors candidate? There will be many newer voters who have never heard Kramer’s name come up for debate and a vote.
King also points out that he was rejected 9 times before but the only true snub imo was as a Senior when he didn’t reach the 80% required.
The way I see is that each year there are only a maximum of 5 modern era candidates than can be selected from 15 finalists. That restriction doesn’t mean the other 10 who miss out are not worthy of Canton. It’s simply a numbers game.
The voters back then obviously felt Kramer was still worthy enough to continue being named as a finalist for many years. Perhaps there was politics and trade bartering involved in the past but there seems to be more transparency today than 20-30 years ago with what goes on inside the Selection meetings.
Kramer’s outstanding resume plus a lot of new voters since 1997 should see him as a slam dunk candidate.
I know Dr. Z was against Stabler and I agree with him on that. I just don’t get everybody’s obsession with Klecko.
We can only hope Kramer is elected. It’s been too long.
Beathard got the Contributor nomination. Awesome.
Agreed beathard is an great choice
Beathard has been the most glaring omission for the Washington Redskins. I am very happy that he was nominated. The “contributors” category is designed for guys like him — he was a scout, then head of player personnel (on a 17-0 team no less), and then gm. Outstanding resume.
As a 1980s Redskins fan, I strong feel that Jacoby deserves to be inducted (he was better than Russ Grimm in my opinion), but I understand that he somehow failed to get the post-season honors that would have made him a slam dunk. After Jacoby, the Skins don’t have too many omissions. Jerry Smith would be nice, but not a glaring oversight. Same with Pat Fisher (although a slight notch below). Gary Clark has been vastly underappreciated, but so have many of his peers (Ellard, Morgan, etc.). 80s receivers not named Rice, Largent, Lofton, and Monk (incidentally the all decade team) look like they have no chance at Canton.
I’m not too strong on Jacoby as a Hall of Famer, personally.
With Jerry Smith, I don’t see it either. Todd Christensen, Pete Retzlaff and Fred Arbanas would be better choices.
I’m okay with Pat Fischer being in, but Beathard is absolutely the biggest Redskins omission and it’s not close.
Glad to hear Bobby Beathard got the Contributor slot this year. Extremely deserving.
For me, the most deserving ‘Skins Senior candidates are DE Gene Brito (4/5/none) and TE Jerry Smith.
Pat Fischer (2/3/none) is a non-starter for me. Am on the fence with Joe Jacoby (3/4/80s), though if he falls into the Senior pool, he’ll just clog it up, so I’m hoping he gets in — and it will make a good case to elect guys like Mike Kenn and Marvin Powell (3/5/none for both). Not that I’m keen to see any more Senior RBs in, but Larry Brown is probably one of the best options available.
Also, not big on Gary Clark. He’s similar to Mark Duper and Mark Clayton, all of whom I think are well behind a whole slew of WR snubs.
Considering 1 senior candidate finalist in 2019 and 10 (if proposed) for 2020. Here would be my 11 selections. Note discussion considering 10 seniors on the 100th anniversary of the NFL in 2020 has centered around one per decade-except that under the current rules there would be no eligible senior candidates for 3 of those 10 decades (1990s, 2000s, 2010s), so until we know more about how that larger class in 2020 would be selected, I am disregarding decades and simply picking 11 to cover both 2019-2020 elections:
G – Bob Kuechenberg 2/6/70s-80s
OT Al Wistert 1/8/40s
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s-80s
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s-80s
OE LaVern Dilweg 20s
DT – Alex Karras 0/4 60s
LB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
LB- Randy Gradishar 5/7
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s
I have a larger list of top 20 eligible senior candidates, all are deserving and will have future chances for election, but had to narrow down to the 11-which I will admit all decade team selections were a major determining factor
Here is what the nominees would look like for the next two years if it was up to me.
Contributors Class of 2019
Pat Bowlen
Gil Brandt
Senior Nominee Class of 2019
Johnny Robinson
10 Senior Nominees Class of 2020
Chuck Howley
Billy Howton
Del Shofner
Maxie Baughan
Randy Gradishar
Cliff Branch
Eddie Meador
Bobby Dillon
Harold Jackson
Cliff Harris
Actually, take out Harris and put in Wistert.
Thinking Bowlen is lock for 2019 with Brandt (or Young) strong 2nd
Actually, I would take out Jackson and put in Wistert.
Those 2020 lists would certainly put in a number of qualified candidates. You could come up with a list of 10 others that don’t include any of those above players mentioned. They would not be as good as those players but would still be qualified candidates. Here would be my list of those players.
1. Ed Budde
2. L. C. Greenwood
3. Jim Tyrer
4. Mac Speedie
5. Drew Pearson
6. Lester Hayes
7. Walt Sweeney
8. Lee Roy Jordan
9. Pete Retzlaf
10. Gene Brito
I agree Bill as electing 10 seniors in 2020 (in fact any 10!) would really clear the way for many others to get serious consideration 2021 and beyond, even if the PFHOF stays with alternating 1-2 slots for 2021 and beyond. Without the special 10 in 2020 it would take another 7-10 years to elect those 10.
I’ve been brainstorming today as to whom I feel is each team’s most worthy player from the senior pool now that Kramer and Brazile have been selected. There is, obviously, no guarantee either one gets elected, though hopefully both of them get their bust. Assuming both get elected, who is each team’s best player in the senior pool? I will not be counting the Ravens, Panthers, Jaguars or Texans. Some are easier than others in which there is no debate. Others you can debate over.
AFC West
Chiefs – Johnny Robinson – No explanation necessary here. I sound so redundant in always posting about him on here. Those Chiefs teams had so many great players In and out of Canton. Jim Tyrer, Ed Budde and Otis Taylor were all terrific in their own right, but Robinson needs to have his turn. Soon.
Broncos – Randy Gradishar – Wins by default
Chargers – Walt Sweeney – Wins by default. In fact, if Kramer is elected, he may be the new best guard in the senior pool not in Canton. It’s between him, Budde and Niland for that honor, in my opinion.
Raiders – Cliff Branch. Some want Lester Hayes, Jack Tatum, Todd Christensen. For me, it has to be Branch. He had great numbers for his era, was a 3/4 and is one of the best at any position in the pool.
AFC North
Bengals – Lemar Parrish – I’m not overly crazy about Ken Anderson’s case, though he would be a better inductee than Stabler or Namath, and he’d be a far better selection than Jim Plunkett. Parrish was a 1/8 DB.
Browns – Dick Schafrath – Some like Mac Speedie. I’ll take one of the better offensive linemen outside of Canton who was a 4/6 selection.
Steelers – L.C. Greenwood – You could also make cases for Donnie Shell and Andy Russell. None of them are top priorities for me. Greenwood was 2/6 and All Decade. Shell was 3/5 with 51 interceptions and Russell made 7 Pro Bowls and was a star linebacker even before Lambert and Ham arrived.
AFC East
Bills – Mike Stratton – Wins by default
Dolphins – Bob Kuechenberg – I guess he wins this one by default, though I’m not crazy about him.
Jets – Larry Grantham – Some people want Joe Klecko and I just don’t see it. The senior linebacker pool is deep, and Grantham is one of many.
Patriots – Gino Cappelletti – Wins by default
AFC South
Colts – Bobby Boyd – Some would put Mike Curtis here. I’ll take the 3/2/1960s All Decade DB who intercepted a ton of passes over a short career.
Titans – No Titans qualify, but going back their days as the Oilers, I think Charlie Hennigan wins by default.
NFC West
49ers – Abe Woodson – Wins by default
Cardinals – Jim Bakken – Unless some want to put Marshall Goldberg on here. An offensive/defensive player with two All Decade selections would be a lock for Canton. Bakken is, in my opinion, the best senior kicker not in.
Rams – Ed Meador – Some could argue for Isaiah Robertson here. I prefer Meador. Plus, should Harold Jackson be seen more as a Ram or an Eagle? I’m not sure.
Seahawks – Dave Brown? This is one of those teams with very weak candidates for the senior pool.
NFC North
Bears – Joe Fortunato – Wins by default
Lions – Alex Karras – Wins by default
Packers – Billy Howton – I give my sincere apologies to Bobby Dillon, who absolutely should be in, but now that Kramer has been nominated, and for this exercise we are not including him, Billy Howton is easily the best senior receiver not in, and he is one of the best in the pool at any positions who should’ve been in nearly 50 years ago.
Vikings – Chuck Foreman – I don’t see any outrageous snubs from the Vikings, though some have cases. Among others include Matt Blair, Grady Alderman and Jim Marshall.
NFC East
Cowboys – Chuck Howley – No brainer here. No explanation necessary. Cliff Harris should be in, maybe John Niland, too. Some want Drew Pearson and Harvey Martin. For me, there’s Howley and then there’s everybody else.
Eagles – Al Wistert – Much like the Packers, I apologize to Maxie Baughan, who absolutely should’ve been in by now. Wistert was a fantastic offensive lineman, 1940s All Decade member and four time first team All Pro.
Giants – Del Shofner – I think Jimmy Patton should be in, but Shofner played more years with the Giants than the Rams. Patton would crack my top 20/top 25. Shofner makes my top 10.
Redskins – Pat Fischer – Some want Jerry Smith here. A 2/3 isn’t overly impressive, but he was so small. It’s incredible how he could matchup against Carmichael like he did.
NFC South
Buccaneers – Jimmie Giles, maybe? Another team with little to offer in the senior pool.
Falcons – George Kunz – You could also argue for Tommy Nobis and Jeff Van Note. Kunz was 1/8. Nobis was 1/5 and I’m not sure if he deserved to be All Decade.
Saints – I seriously have no clue here. Maybe Tom Myers. Sam Mills is not yet eligible for the senior pool, neither is Pat Swilling.
I think Browner is Senior eligible now. I’ll replace Foreman with him.
You could also replace Karras with Roger Brown and Houston Antwine for Gino Cappeletti. I would also Put Jake Scott on the same level as Bob Kuchenberg, but overall it is hard to argue those rankings and expanations.
Corey, by and large a good list. Here’s mine, in descending order within each team and with all the players I’d be okay with getting in at present. Derived from the top 70 list I put up on the other thread. And with Jerry Kramer and Robert Brazile being Senior nominees, have decided to replace them at the end of the list with Gary Collins and George Saimes:
Packers: Lavvie Dilweg, Billy Howton, Verne Lewellen, Bobby Dillon, Bill Forester, Gale Gillingham
Eagles: Al Wistert, Maxie Baughan, Harold Carmichael, Bill Bergey, Pete Retzlaff
Cardinals: Duke Slater, Ken Gray
Chiefs: Johnny Robinson, Jim Tyrer, Deron Cherry, Ed Budde
Cowboys: Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, Drew Pearson, John Niland, Lee Roy Jordan
Rams: Harold Jackson, Riley Matheson, Eddie Meador, Duane Putnam
Bengals: Ken Anderson, Lemar Parrish
Broncos: Randy Gradishar, Lionel Taylor, Louis Wright
Giants: Jimmy Patton, Del Shofner
Chargers: Walt Sweeney, Earl Faison
Lions: Ox Emerson, Alex Karras, George Christensen, Roger Brown
Bears: Dick Barwegen, Joe Fortunato
Jets: Winston Hill, Joe Klecko, Larry Grantham, Mark Gastineau, Marvin Powell
Browns: Jim Ray Smith, Mack Speedie, Gary Collins
Raiders: Dave Grayson, Cliff Branch, Lester Hayes, Art Powell, Todd Christensen
49ers: Tommy Davis, Billy Wilson, Abe Woodson
‘Skins: Gene Brito, Jackie Smith
Colts: Bobby Boyd, Gene Lipscomb
Steelers: L.C. Greenwood, Donnie Shell
Vikings: Joey Browner
Falcons: George Kunz, Tommy Nobis
Bills: Tom Sestak, Mike Stratton, George Saimes
Patriots: Houston Antwine
Looking at this, might consider shifting around a few players on my list, but it’s reasonably accurate.
I’m going to be doing some revising from my original list.
I stand by my Kuechenberg post on the Dolphins. I think Jake Scott and Dick Anderson cancel each other out. Scott was 5/2 Super Bowl MVP, while Anderson was DPOY and All Decade. If either of them had the other one’s accolades in addition to their own, I’d say one of them is the best not in Canton. Instead, there are two players who both check off some nice boxes, but not enough to be high on my rankings.
I have to say that I completely forgot about Billy Wilson, and you could argue him or Abe Woodson for Canton. Neither one is in my top 10, but both are in my top 20/top 25 range.
Roger Brown is another one I forgot about.
I have to admit I hadn’t really heard of Antwine before, but Cappelletti is a very strong option, considering he was a 5X AFL All Star and also was named 1964 AFL MVP. That looks good for a potential HOF hopeful if you ask me.
Bachslunch has done more research than I have on this. I don’t know a ton about the pre-1950s candidates and some of these players I’ve never heard of, so I’ll have to look more into them.
Barwegan is a solid choice at 4/4/1950s, but Fortunato was 3/5/1950s and spent his entire career in a Bears uniform while Barwegan jumped around.
I disagree completely on Gary Collins. Two Pro Bowls, no All Pro selections, All Decade, sure, but we’ve discussed on here already some spotty selections for the 1960s All Decade squad.
Gary Collins would be 70 out of 70, assuming he stays there. Was trying to think of two folks to add with Kramer and Brazile hopefully off the list for good. But I could be persuaded with a better option.
Am a little more sold on George Saimes (5/5/allAFL) being added in — he was the odd man out last time I put this together.
So I just read on the people Bachslunch listed and shame on me for not knowing who some of these people were. No wonder they’re not in. The voters have neglected even more people than I already thought they did. I have to give a ton of respect to Bachslunch for adding to this discussion.
Ken Gray really stands out to me. 2/6. Somehow he has been ignored and doesn’t get talked about as much as he should.
Lionel Taylor is another shining example of AFL players who get the shaft. Five times he led the AFL in receptions and somehow he gets brushed aside.
I have heard of Louis Wright. He has an argument, but I definitely would put Gradishar in first.
I have heard of Slater, Lewellen and Dilweg, but what am I supposed to judge them on? They were pre-Pro Bowl players, which is fine. However, none were listed as All Decade or All Pro selections either.
Football-Reference lists Matheson as a 5x First Team All Pro. I will go one step further and ask how he wasn’t on the 1940s All Decade Team.
I can’t say I agree on Tommy Davis with the 49ers. I’ll stand by my claim on Bakken.
Earl Faison had a short career, but it looks like he was something special.
Gene Lipscomb would probably fall short of being Canton worthy, though Gene Brito has an argument.
Jim Ray Smith is a good one to list, though I stand by my claim on Schafrath and the Browns. 4/6 beats 3/5.
Good ones on Saimes and Sestak. The AFL sure gets overlooked a lot, doesn’t it? If Robinson has a hard time getting in, what does it say about these other ones?
I really like the Duane Putnam listing. Gillingham would be a fringe selection.
I am convinced a lot of people could use a history lesson on these players and this game. The voters really screwed a lot of people over, didn’t they?
I would take off Collins and add Schafrath, Bachslunch.
Here are 1st team all pro selections and all decade team appearances for the pre-50s guys. The pro bowl restarted at the tail end of Wistert’s and Speedie’s career, so they made one or two of those.
Lavvie Dilweg (6/-/20s)
Duke Slater (3/-/none)
Verne Lewellen (4/-/none)
Ox Emerson (6/-/30s)
George Christensen (4/-/30s)
Riley Matheson (6/-/none)
Al Wistert (6/1/40s)
Mac Speedie (6/2/40s)
I give Slater extra weight despite the three 1st team all pro selections because he made several 2nd teams and likely got the shaft at postseason honors time because of his color. Lewellen was also a punter and probably the best from the league’s early days. I have Christensen a little lower than the rest — I think he’s a little more borderline than the others. For those who didn’t make an all decade team, beats me why they didn’t.
Oh, and no shame not knowing something, Corey. It takes a lot of time to do this sort of research and to try and sort the most deserving out. I still revise some stuff or discover what I think is a deserving player off the radar, myself.
I just found out Bobby Boyd passed away on Monday. R.I.P.
Cornell Green was 3/5 and Erich Barnes a 1/6. It looks like they have been overlooked, too and don’t get talked about as much, and I’m not sure why. While I wouldn’t have either high on my rankings, it does seem they have better profiles than some who frequently get mentioned.
John Turney of PFRA had this to say about possible runner ups ” not exactly sure, but Ken Riley, Howley and Cliff Branch had strong support.”
Well, it seems Howley is getting closer.
If this doesn’t prove we need a massive Senior selection for the 100th anniversary, what does?
Also, I have another question.
How in the world are these people not in Canton, again?
Actually, Cornell Green wouldn’t be a bad choice instead of Gary Collins. Glad you brought him up.
I used to be more supportive of Dick Schafrath (4/6/none) than I am now. The reason is that he doesn’t grade out especially well at Ken Crippen’s film study site. Here’s the link to the site:
http://www.kencrippen.com/historical-scouting-reports.htm
and to the write up on Schafrath over there:
http://www.kencrippen.com/Scouting-Reports/Schafrath_Dick.pdf
One issue of course is that they apparently only had five game films available. Crippen himself has said he’d be most confident in a grade with about 15-20+ game examples. Whether more film examples would show him doing better, I can’t say. Perhaps so. I can still be persuaded, but I’m more dubious than I used to be on him.
And that apparently is an issue with Dick Stanfel. He graded out in a tie for the worst of anyone they looked at, despite a profile of 5/4/50s.
Corey – while voter bias definitely used to be a significant problem, I’ve always felt the bigger factor that led to the backlog the senior pool was the variation in class sizes. It’s been several years now since the hall hasn’t inducted 5 modern-era players but that used to be pretty common place.
If the committee had simply inducted the maximum allowable inductees each year, we would be have a very different looking senior pool right now. It’s very likely that guys like Greenwood, Gradishar, Branch, and Hayes for example would have had a lot less trouble getting in during the modern vote and never would have hit the senior pool in the first place.
I think we are starting to see this trend change. The 80’s and 90’s players that are starting to enter the senior pool now are in general borderline cases.
(Reposting without links)
Actually, Cornell Green wouldn’t be a bad choice instead of Gary Collins. Glad you brought him up.
I used to be more supportive of Dick Schafrath (4/6/none) than I am now. The reason is that he doesn’t grade out that well at Ken Crippen’s film study site (7.5, with the worst at 7.4). (Have removed the links in this repost). Here’s what the overall analysis said:
STRENGTHS
•Excellent downfield blocker
•Very competitive
WEAKNESSES
•Can lose his balance on occasion
•Can get pushed back in pass protection
•Defenders could stand him up, getting him to lose leverage
BOTTOM LINE
Schafrath’s game had some deficiencies. In pass protection, he could get pushed back, beaten on the edge
and lose his balance. However, it did not often result in negative plays. Defenders could get pressure
on the quarterback, but did not sack the quarterback. He was effective in getting downfield to block on sweeps and
screens. Was weak with his cut blocks. Struggled to maintain balance in pass protection.
One issue of course is that they apparently only had five game films available. Crippen himself has said he’d be most confident in a grade with about 15-20+ game examples, the more the better. Whether more film examples would show him doing better, I can’t say. Perhaps so. I can still be persuaded, but I’m more dubious than I used to be on him.
And that apparently is an issue with Dick Stanfel. He graded out in a tie for the worst of anyone they looked at, (7.4) despite a profile of 5/4/50s.
I think I was asking, or trying to ask a rhetorical question in my last post.
If there was voter bias, and it seems that was the case, maybe they had no business being voters in the first place. I think they switched from one Senior to two for 2004.
I don’t get why you wouldn’t induct all five just to get rid of them if nothing else because of how deep it is. That’s why if Pearson was nominated, I wouldn’t have been thrilled, but just elect him in February so as not to deal with him any longer.
Of the players from the ’80s and ’90s in or soon to be entering the pool, Joey Browner, Deron Cherry, Roger Craig and Karl Mecklenburg would be my choices for the best from that era. No to Klecko. No to Jacoby.
One thing that helps Lionel Taylor’s argument for me is that he played with arguably one of the worst collections of QBs in league history while still putting up excellent numbers. One wonders what he might have done with a decent QB.
Regarding Schafrath, if you were a six time Pro Bowler, a four time First Team All Pro, you’re one of the best players in the pool at any position, let alone lineman and regardless of what Crippen’s website says, if it was just five games, there’s no question Schafrath is one of many who have been neglected in favor of some with inferior profiles. You can’t just ignore that.
As far as Taylor, Frank Tripucka wasn’t that bad, was he? He threw a ton of interceptions but also led the AFL in a few passing categories a couple of years.
The committee just last week made two of its best choices in recent years, and there is still such a ridiculous backlog of people who already should have been in.
Agreed with bachs on what he said about the bengals lemar parrish is the clear front runner at 8/5 anderson 4/3 riley 4/0 as it curtails to cornell green and cliff harris its real close with harris at 6/5 and green at 5/4 browns i think the top 3 are speedie collins schafrath
It will be really interested to see how the PFHOF Board sets up the larger senior election in 2020, how many slots and whether open or by decade allocation. Very hopeful that they take up this great idea with at least 10 , as it will allow for a complete reset of the seniors pool for 2021 and beyond when I hope they keep to 2 seniors and 1 contributor each year (no alternating 1, 2 slots), plus move coaches to contributors. Earlier comment about the number of years when the PFHPF failed to fill modern slots (5-7 depending on rules at time) or even the 1 or 2 senior slots is a very good point and one reason why backlog of senior candidates has greatly expanded.
Is there something I am missing with Gary Collins? Two Pro Bowls, All Decade. No All Pro selections. He would make Dave Robinson look like a decent choice by comparison. Why Gary Collins and not Frank Ryan? Or Bill Glass? Or Bob Gain? Or Jim Houston? For what it’s worth, I don’t think any of the aforementioned should be in Canton, but the others would be better than Collins. There’s only one player from the 1964 Browns NFL Championship team not in Canton who should be in, and that’s Dick Schafrath.
Harris was 3/6, not 5/6. Captain Crash definitely belongs in the Hall of Fame, but all Cowboys take a back seat to Chuck Howley.
There are quite a few players in who I would take out – Dave Robinson, Ken Stabler, Joe Namath, Doak Walker, Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, and I would replace them with many players in the senior pool.
These players are dropping like flies. First Grantham, then Grayson, now Boyd. If there were to be 10 seniors for the 100th anniversary, how many players in the senior pool will still be here 2-3 years from now? They’re getting up there.
Harris was 5 times all pro 6 times pro bowl where did you get 3/6 corey
Pro-Football Reference.
I have Cliff Harris’s honors as 4/6/70s. He was an NEA 1st team all pro in 1975, then named as such by several organizations in 1976, 1977, and 1978.
Again, not so sure of Gary Collins as of now. Need to explore that possibility further. I always reserve the right to change my mind. Would currently replace him at my no. 70 position with Cornell Green or Dick Schafrath, who seem like better options.
I think we need to question All Decade selections. It’s been questioned on here before and people like myself would’ve taken off Larry Morris and Dave Robinson and replaced them with Chuck Howley and Maxie Baughan.
What about the others? Gary Collins was listed as a flanker. You know who else was a flanker? Hall of Famer Bobby Mitchell. One year as a flanker, he led the NFL in receiving yards and the next year in receiving touchdowns. Two of his four Pro Bowls came at the flanker position.
Yet Bobby Mitchell was not on the All Decade Team of the 1960s. Was Gary Collins really better than Bobby Mitchell? Collins was All Decade, but did he seriously deserve it?
Another Hall of Famer who played flanker during that era was Tommy McDonald. How can Gary Collins be 1960s All Decade but not Bobby Mitchell or Tommy McDonald?
how long do you plan to go on this all decade tangent because its starting to really bore me
I’m sorry if it’s boring you, but people debate Canton criteria here and one of the things people do here, myself included, is debate All Decade members. Well, in order to debate their HOF worthiness, we should also take a look at All Decade worthiness.
I must say that I agree with Corey. The All- Decade teams at times were really ill- conceived. The All-time worst for me was John Anderson being named All-Decade. There may be 10-11 linebackers that were better than him during his time period. All-Decade should only be one tool that is used but certainly no the end all factor in determining a Hall of Famer. Same with Pro-Bowl Appearences…just a tool.
Corey, here’s the HoF argument on Tommy Davis, and it’s primarily for his punting. Until the 21st century, Davis ranked 2nd all time in yards per punt at 44.7. No. 1 at the time was Sammy Baugh (45.1) and no. 3 was Yale Lary (44.3), both HoFers, though both were of course highly accomplished position players. No idea why Davis was not named the punter on the all 60s team instead of Don Chandler. Davis was also the 49ers place kicker during those years, and while he was fairly pedestrian in FG percentage relative to era, he was dead accurate with XPTs, missing only two his whole career. He held the record for most XPTs made for ca. 50 years, with 234. Dr. Z. has made the point that Davis’s numbers were especially remarkable given that his home park was Kezar Stadium, noted for swirling and unpredictable winds.
“Most consecutive XPTs made,” sorry.
Not to be crass but really hoping larger senior class in 2020 will finally give chance for pre 1970 senior candidates who we know have been senior candidate finalists (in final 10 discussed on senior candidate selection day) and are facing age/health issues. Including Robinson (age 81 in 2020), Howley (84), Baugham (82), and Meader (83). 2020 (and 2019) may be the last best chance for some, gets risky each year that they will not be here to enjoy the honor. I worry considerably about Howley as he is in failing heath and would be really pissed at committee if he ends up as posthumous.
agreed with paul on howley and yes there are some all decade selections that are baffling what are some of the other ones beside john anderson and gary collins
While the all decade teams have a reasonable degree of usefulness, they have some problems. I’ve seen complaints at other websites about the teams from the 20s, 30s, and 40s not always accurately reflecting the realities of positions during those decades. If there’s time, I’ll see if I can repost some specifics here from those websites.
Here’s what I can see regarding the 50s and 60s:
50s: Bobby Walston has utterly no business on this team at WR; Billy Howton should be here instead, and Billy Wilson also has a better argument. Jim Parker is listed at G when in fact he only played OT during that decade; Stan Jones or Duane Putnam should be here instead and Parker would arguably be a better choice than Bob St. Clair if forced to maintain only two OTs. Joe Fortunato is listed as a LB on this team, but all of his honors came in the 1960s; unfortunately, there really are no good choices at OLB for this squad, so the best 4th choice if you’re not worrying about having all MLBs/MGs would be Bill Willis, who probably belongs here rather than on the 40s team because all his honors came in the 50s, with Les Richter next in line. It’s also not clear why the number of people on this team is skimpier than some others. There are only two DEs and two OTs, for example. Doing so keeps folks like Wilson, Putnam, Gene Brito, Andy Robustelli, Frank Gatski, Bobby Dillon, Arnie Weinmeister, and Mike McCormack from consideration.
60s: Corey already has rightly mentioned that Tommy McDonald and Bobby Mitchell would be better choices at flanker than Gary Collins and I think also Boyd Dowler. Howard Mudd has utterly no business at G on this team, certainly not ahead of folks like Jim Parker, Jim Ray Smith, Ken Gray, or Tom Mack. John David Crow is debatable at best at HB; Dick Bass is likely a better option though he played both HB and FB. Larry Morris, Tommy Nobis, and Dave Robinson should not be at LB, certainly not ahead of Maxie Baughan, Chuck Howley, Joe Fortunato, or Bill Forester. Also not sure Ralph Neely is a better OT choice than Dick Schafrath. Tommy Davis is a far better choice at punter than Don Chandler. There really should be a second TE choice, which would be Mike Ditka, and another center, which would be Mick Tingelhoff, and one more each for CB and safety, which would be Abe Woodson or Cornell Green for the former and Jimmy Patton for the latter.
More as time allows.
70s: Harold Jackson should be on this team instead of Lynn Swann at WR. Dave Wilcox or Chris Hanburger should be on this team at OLB instead of Bobby Bell (who is rightly on the all AFL squad, but had almost all his honors in the 60s). Mel Blount should be on this team (instead of the all 80s team during a decade when he had few honors) instead of Louis Wright. I’d also put Paul Krause on this team at safety instead of Dick Anderson.
What happened at times is exactly what happened with some pro bowl honors. Players were rewarded in the “Now.” for performances in the past.” I laugh when think of players like Jackie slater and Darrell Green receiving Pro Bowl honors in years when they were just picked because of previous seasons.
Also 70s: Claude Humphrey should be at DE on this team instead of Harvey Martin.
80s: Jimbo Covert does not belong on this team; should have Jackie Slater instead. Would definitely have Tony Dorsett instead of Roger Craig. Dave Butz doesn’t belong here either; substitute with Fred Smerlas. The CBs are kind of a mess, with Mel Blount really belonging on the 70s team and Frank Minnifield being a dubious choice; here, I’d probably have Louis Wright and move Ronnie Lott from safety to CB, as he split time at both positions in the decade. And having Carl Banks and John Anderson on this team is inexcusable, with Anderson arguably the worst all decade team member of all time; I say dump both and add Rickey Jackson, and if you need more LBs, add Karl Mecklenburg and/or Harry Carson to the MLB list.
im rather baffled too bachs as to why walston is on the 50’s all decade team and not howton if i recall bachs walston wasnt that good
Bachs, if I were to guess, Chandler is the punter on the 1960s All Decade team because he was a Packer and Tommy Davis played for a team which wouldn’t peak until the ’80s and ’90s. If Harold Jackson was a Steeler and Lynn Swann was a Ram/Eagle, who do you think would be All Decade?
It does make one wonder why Davis didn’t get more accolades in his career, but I still stand by my claim that Bakken is the best special teamer in the pool not in Canton, and when he becomes eligible Shane Lechler should get in, too.
Also, anybody care to explain to me how Bob St. Clair was All Decade in the 1950s and Lou Creekmur wasn’t? Look at the Pro Bowls/All Pros the two racked up that decade. It’s not even close.
If Harold Jackson was a Steeler and Lynn Swann was a Ram/Eagle, who do you think would be All Decade? In that scenario if Jackson was on 4x winning SB team plus a SB MVP he would be All Decade as we all know that is why Swann was elected (although it took him almost 20 years of modern eligibility).
I think that was a rhetorical question, Paul. Swann is one of the worst selections of all time. Stallworth isn’t great either, but better than Swann.
All Decade and Canton have both had injustices and both should have had Harold Jackson.
and i would agree with you corey on harold jackson and this is coming from a steelers fan but i dont think swann belongs id rather see either branch or like i said jackson
What did Larry Wilson do to earn All Decade in the 1970s? 1960s was well deserved, as is Canton, but he hardly played in the 1970s.
This is why we need to debate All Decade in addition to Canton. All Decade is a big box for Canton hopefuls to check off. When people discuss whether or not someone deserves induction, All Decade is a big factor. We ought to be measuring All Decade in our debates over someone’s Hall of Fame worthiness, and I think some snubs from Canton were All Decade snubs, while some who have mistakenly been inducted (Swann) shouldn’t have been All Decade.
All decade WR’s for the 70’s should have been Jackson, Pearson, Carmichael and Branch
Had that happened, I can imagine Jackson and Branch would have had their well deserved busts by now. Instead, both are long overdue and the selections of the All Decade team might have made an impact.
Bill, there’s the interesting question about what to do with Paul Warfield regarding the 70s team. He could certainly be considered for the 60s or 70s all decade team (he’s on the latter) — and he’s a classic example of someone whose career doesn’t neatly fit the numbered decades. He’d be a great choice for the 60s team except that he played end rather than flanker (Charley Taylor and Del Shofner are the ends on that team). But he’s certainly better than the two flankers (Gary Collins, Boyd Dowler).
I agree. He fits perfectly on a Mid-Decades team Like Jim Turney puts out. However if you hold strictly to All-Decade he ends up in neither place. That is the same thing that is going to happen to Calvin Johnson. But in the last 10 ten years, I would only take Larry Fitzgerald over him, But you watch Johnson will not end up on a all-Decade team.
2018 preliminary list of modern candidates released tonight at 8p
Johnny Robinson still being snubbed. I’ve been supportive of Jerry Kramer but he only has 3 Pro Bowls.
I’ve been watching former games that Chuck Foreman played in… that guy was a beast. If he had played for the steelers or raiders, he would be in the Hall of fame. Still can’t believe Roger Craig is not in the Hall of fame.
Agree with you Bill. The only thing about Foreman was his relatively short career. Just think if he had today’s medical advancements. In my mind Foreman was equal in skill to Terrell Davis so maybe Davis getting into HOF will help. The Rams Lawrence McCutcheon was another great one during Foreman’s time. Chuck Muncie was great too and reminded me of Foreman. I think James Brooks deserves to be in HOF based on skill and career length. He was only 5’8″ 177lbs and played 12 years. He was exciting, led team to a SB and another team that was favored and delivered stats needed during his time. So many all-purpose yards. IMO he was better than Floyd Little. All of these RB’s got a lot of exposure in their day but just didn’t win a Super Bowl. Other greats too watch were Larry Brown, Terry Metcalf, Calvin Hill, Lydell Mitchell, Wilbur Montgomery and Billy Sims. Looks like Larry Csonka, Franco Harris, Earl Cambell and Tony Dorsett will be the only RB’s to make the HOF from their era. With the dominance of the running game in the 70’s and early 80’s you’d think the RB would have a couple more.
Terrell Davis election was an rare exception, not a new standard as how many players have a 3/3/all decade, 2 OPOY, MVP, SB MVP, 2SB career? Certainly not Foreman (who may someday get a shot but would have to come out of very deep seniors pool, above many all decade team members). Muncie, Brooks, Metcalf, Brown, Montgomery and Sims all fall into a similar group-very good but not great enough short careers and hurt by lack of awards, career numbers and playoff(SB) success.
Chuck Foreman, Larry Brown, Don Perkins, and Ken Willard are probably the best 60s-70s RBs not in the HoF. All were very good, but I’m not sold on the idea that keeping them out of the HoF is any sort of injustice. Particularly since RB is probably the most over-represented position in Canton.
I’m not that sold on Roger Craig for the hall either. Both he and Rickey Watters strike me as a port man’s Marshall Faulk. Niners fans make a big deal about his 1000/1000 season, but it’s actually an aberration in his career; his second highest receiving yards total was 675. I probably wouldn’t complain too much if he got in, but for me it’s no crime if he’s never inducted.
“Poor-man’s Marshall Faulk.” Damn autocorrect.
You guys are right. Still I feel like Brooks is the one that goes overlooked. I know Boomer Esiason and Dan Fouts believe he was a HOFer. I used to like in the old days when the Football announcers used to educate the listener on the players that came before with their greatness. Now they’re so busy analyzing every play plus the game is so over-exposed there’s no need to talk about history. I think Brooks would be an even a greater star today with the game being wide open. . I don’t know the numbers like you guys but I’m going to venture a guess that Brooks was the best all purpose RB statistically up until Roger Craig. Funny though how the mind can embelish our memories of players from years gone by when it comes to what we think their stats should be. . LOL I thought his numbers were a lot better. Still I remember 4.7 yds a carry and 79 tds which were pretty good for essentially 3rd down back. And he was Eric Metcalf exciting!! I kind of agree about Craig but I think he needs to be given credit for being the best to do what he did first in the West Coast Offense. Actually Brooks was 1st with Walsh in Cinncy.. :) Plus Craig had a running style we all remember bringing those knees up so high. I guess they don’t give credit for that or Benny Malone and Don Nottingham would be in the HOF. lol Ask Foreman and he’ll tell you it’s an injustice he’s not in the HOF. What about John Brockington’s three straight 1,000 yard seasons. Lot’s of good ones who don;t quite make the cut. I forgot Joe Morris in the 80’s. All said I guess the HOF has it about right. We all have our favorites who we selfishly wish would make it. If Dallas won a SB in the 60’s who knows about Meredith or Perkins? I used to like a RB for Buffalo, oh I forgot OJ Simpson. LOL Who was the RB at Buffalo with Knox. Too lazy to look up. lol
Speaking of Buffalo and Coach Knox, LB Isiah Robertson absolutely belongs in the HOF.
I usually leave Isiah Robertson off my OLB HoF must lists. His honors are at the low end of competitive at 3/6/none, plus he reportedly looks less good on film than his honors would suggest. I’d have him behind:
Chuck Howley (5/6/none)
Maxie Baughan (5/9/none)
Robert Brazile (5/7/70s)
Joe Fortunato (3/5/50s)
Larry Grantham (5/5/allAFL)
Bill Forester (4/4/none)
Mike Stratton (4/6/all AFL)
for certain. Certainly belongs somewhere on the radar screen, but not that high for me.
Also might want to issue a semi-correction on Dave Robinson. I posted a question over at the PFRA website asking how he looks on film, and surprisingly the feedback was universally extremely positive. One poster in fact suggested that he and Dave Wilcox were the best two OLBs on film from the time period. Here’s the link:
http://www.profootballresearchers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4571
Does this mean he should be in the HoF and/or on the all-60s team? For me, this has me rethinking the question at least to some extent. Though for me it still doesn’t change the fact that the OLBs listed above belong in anyway. Canton is still woefully short of OLBs from the time.
Was Weds Nov 16th last year, so we should look for PFHOF announcement of 2018 semi-finalists (25) around Nov 15th this year-next Weds? Nothing official in terms of dates listed on PFHOF website (they usually do not have dates in advance of any election news), but is a fair guess if only based on years past.
Another elderly Senior candidate just died. Joe Fortunato passed away Monday at age 87. Interestingly, the PFRA has a Hall of the Very Good, and Fortunato was just elected to it, announced on Tuesday.