We’ve done a fair number of “Is player xx a Hall of Famer” posts here – Eli Manning, Tony Romo, and Patrick Willis as a few examples – but somehow this one is one we never really considered that much. It first came across my Twitter feed last week, when I saw Lamar Jackson’s initial response to user Grantlong (@grantlonggg) asking if Michael Vick is a first ballot hall of famer…keeping in mind, I missed the “first ballot” part of that tweet the first several times reading that.
Lamar Jackson clearly is in the camp of “Yes” to that question:
Thiz can’t be a real question https://t.co/h6JqsuyUgx
— Lamar Jackson (@Lj_era8) April 5, 2020
I, on the other hand, am more in the camp of Reddit user LunchThreatener, who’s post reminded me of the tweet earlier this week, who thinks Vick isn’t even HOF worthy, much less first ballot.
Just looking at the stats–Vick played in 143 games, but started just 115, finishing with a 61-51-1 record. He finished with a 56.2% completion percentage, 22,464 yards, 133 touchdowns and 88 interceptions (a 2.7% INT rate). He was named to 4 Pro Bowls, zero All-Pro teams, played in six playoff games, had 14 comebacks and led 15 game-winning drives.
A lot of people will say he revolutionized the position–and he started that process, but to me, the 56.2% completion percentage is the most glaring problem with that argument–when critics called Lamar Jackson a running back in disguise, they were more accurately describing Vick. By comparison, Jackson finished his second season with a 66.1% completion percentage–a mark Vick never even came close to (career high was 62.6% in his 2010 resurgence with the Eagles). Jackson also finished with a 36:6 TD:INT ratio. If you project those numbers out for the length of Vick’s career, even accounting for Vick’s two year layoff, he would finish with 468 touchdowns (if he remained a full-time starter, which Vick couldn’t).
So Jackson is much more in line to be considered a revolutionary at the position (after Cam Newton bridged that gap, albeit with a different QB running style)–and personally I think that Vick will likely not make the cut in Canton.
What say you, Zoneblitz readers? Vote in the poll and leave your comments below.
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I dont believe so, nor do I feel Tony Romo is worthy.
Vick was exciting, though as a runner …
Cunningham, McNair and McNabb were better winners while having running ability as well.
Vick might keep the rushing yardage record for QBs but even Russell Wilson, if not Jackson will challenge it, while Newton seems to be on the downside of his career, though he could restart it with another team …
Ahhhh…..no
And I don’t think Cunningham, McNair and McNabb are getting in either. Standard is pretty high for QBs, win a lot, win SBs or have some pretty impressive career passing stats. Hard to think of any current QB in the Hall that don’t meet that standard and neither does Vick or the other three aforementioned QBs
With his running ability, Vick is the last somewhat successful left handed QB however …
We will see if Tua coming from Alabama will be successful … odds are against him …
Newton had poor statistical seasons in 2017-2018 and than was injured in 2019, always possible he finds the right fit and gets chance to led another team deep into the playoffs, but not so sure that is likely. His MVP and SB season may have been the peak of his career and if it was than he won’t get into the Hall, and leading QB in career rushing yards or TDs is not a path to election
Despite athletic ability and size, when it came to throwing the football, I looked at Newton as being just a more talented version of Byron Leftwich …
both have slower throwing motions and releases that hinder their overall passing skills.
Winning a SB would have certainly helped his career but like a lot of talented QBs, once he reached the big game, he fell flat on his face.
He still could lead a team back there but his fire for the game may not be what it once was …
Hell no!
Michael Vick is a story of what could of been. Great talent not fully realized but still has the fame. No shame in it because it happens a lot in sports. Vick hit like a small asteroid. Impact was really felt than the dust settled. Had a little bit of a second act. That was just his effect on the climate maybe a brief rainy period nothing lasting. :)
Can’t be easy having so much so soon. Some players are singularly focused having the right people in place while others are more along for the ride and stuff comes up on their journey.
McNabb 6/0 has a decent shot way down the road IMO. Slightly better than Ken Anderson’s chances are. IMO.
We did a pretty thorough critique on Vick not long ago. That’s why I feel fairly strongly he’s not a HOF QB. I don’t think he thinks he is. lol Seems like a fine man. Maybe Lamar Jackson is inflating his own ego by throwing so much shine on Vick.? You know since he just topped Vick’s single season rushing record.
Brian did great with my last trivia. Here’s some more for anyone interested.
Of QB’s who reached 50 career wins, who has the most losses? hint he played for the Cowboys. No cheating! lol I wouldn’t of known answer.
Could soon be the worst QB in the HOF. wins 117 losses 117 0 .500 ?
Along with the best QB in the HOF. wins 117 losses 47 0 .713 ?
There are only two HOF QB’s with losing records. Joe Namath is one, who else ?
Interesting to note, Jim Plunkett has a 72- 72 record.
We know what QB has the most wins, Tom Brady but who has the best win percentage with over 50 wins?
hint: it was all about the vertical.
Donavon McNabb’s QB record 98-62-1 is slightly better than what HOF QB? hint: he gets a lot of air time during the NFL season.
This QB also has a record slightly better too Phil Simms . If he hadn’t of gotten injured at the end of the Giants regular would he be in the HOF with the same SB winning result?
All but the top one is difficult.
I was wrong on the my best QB winning percentage of all-time, it was Otto Graham with a 57-13-1 record. Both are over 80%. I suppose I could of said modern era.
on the 70% winning games list are Tom Brady 77.4%, Roger Staubach 74.6%, Joe Montana 71.3% and Peyton Manning 70.3%
I suspect Brady’s is coming down! lol
The next is on the list are:
Jim McMahon 69.1%
Russell Wilson 67.6%
Danny White 67.4 %
Danny White was a better QB than Tony Romo?
Vick was a great runner but never a complete QB. By his own admission he didn’t apply himself fully to learning and excelling at the position early in his career. He did a solid job of rewriting his career narrative later in his career, particularly with the Eagles, but I think he’s on the outside looking in as an HOF candidate.
Could be Eddie LeBaron on the high losses …
Montana has the high win pct …
Sonny Jurgensen and Warren Moon have losing records and maybe Dan Fouts but its close …
Plunkett and Manning are 500 during regular season but with postseasons are winners …
Daryle Lamonica has a high winning pct …
No Romo wasnt better than Danny White …
Because Simms has a good winning pct and was on two championship teams, not to mention a bad wind, weather QB, I believe he should be in the HOF …
McNabb, Cunningham, and McNair have cases because they all won games with less than stellar supporting casts but good defences …
Still don’t see any case that can be made for Cunningham or McNair
RIP … Pete Retzlaff …
Another excellent player who has a case for the HOF … had as good a pair of hands as any Receiver/ TE of the sixties and won a championship.
Brian, thanks for participating in my nonsense. lol
Note: Sorry, I assumed when wikipedia “career record” it was all games played but I guess not. Pro Reference doesn’t total wins either which seems strange to me. This bite me in the behind once before. Deja vu! I corrected totals to reflect “all games” played.
Vinny Testaverde played for Dallas in 2004 and has a 92-126-1 record.
Eli Manning has a 117-117 or 125-121 So much for that premise. lol Still could be the worst. Yes, Joe Montana is 117-49 or 133-56.
I thought Sonny Jurgenson 69-73-7 was the only other HOF QB with a losing record.
Moon is 105-108 and Fouts is 89-88-1 and may be more if including playoff record. Joe Namath actually is 64-64-4. lol Namath only had 4 winning records in his 13 years. Three of those years he had a very good Defense.
Yup, the “mad bomber” was 70-21. Not sure if still over 80% We don’t talk much about Lamonica’s 5/2 chances. Also a AFL MVP. Maybe looks bad in Playoffs I don’t know.
Well counting Playoffs makes a BIG difference in this guy’s record. Hahaha Simms and McNabb have better regular season records than Troy Aikman.
Actually Simms is 101-68, McNabb is 107-67 and Aikman is 105-75.
IMO “Air” McNair has a better HOF case than Ken Anderson who many people support.
I like the way you think Brian, lol . I have no issue if Simms makes HOF. Many do. :)
Cunningham isn’t a hell no but still a no.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Football_League_career_quarterback_wins_leaders
How does McNair have a better case then Anderson??
Both were MVP’s, both losers in the SB and both exhibited lots of guts from the QB position but I’ll take McNair’s talent and being clutch over Anderson. Both had 91 wins but McNair lost 19 fewer games. IMO he’s a more impressive HOF candidate.
He never really got to air it out as much playing in a ball control offense like other QB’s did. And the more I think about HC Jeff Fischer the better I think McNair was. lol He and Eddie George through sheer guts and determination made Fischer look good for a bunch of years.
Also McNair was one of the best passers I’ve seen coming into the League hence the name Air.
McNair had one top season, Anderson had four
How do you define top season? In NcNair’s prime 6 years, he had 30 rushing TD’s with approximately 3,000 yards and 5.9 yds a carry. His stat line is similar to Steve Young a player he was often compared to.
I would suggest that three of those rushing years when he also threw for over 3,000 yds were top seasons. That doesn’t include his MVP year.
One thing I firmly believe is that he was a better leader. I think it shows with his record. Maybe we just going to disagree. :)
QBs aren’t getting elected based on their career and season rushing yards and TDs, passing is the key skill and contribution for QBs. Rushing is a secondary skill and impact they bring to the field. Anderson led the league in passing %, rating and completions multiple times, plus multiple all pro selections,
Kurt Warner, Rich Gannon and Peyton Manning are the All Pro’s.
McNair couldn’t get even on 1st team All Pro in his MVP year because of Manning. Manning is the best QB with 7 All Pro’s and it’s not close. Ken Anderson has 1 AP unless you count 2nd Team than you need to count McNair’s.
Both have cases …
McNair had less to work with being part of a conservative smash mouth offence, while Anderson had more skilled offensive teammates.
Anderson has the gaudy passing stats while McNair was better in postseason.
Bottom line is … neither QB won enough big games, which defines a HOF QB, though many people thought Anderson was a great thrower like Fouts, Moon, Jurgenson and Warner …
Lamonica was a great thrower as well, with a great winning pct. He was part of three AFL champions but lost three AFL championship games in a row …
His case might be better than Anderson or McNair.
Its hard to get into the Hall, stats and accomplishments are key and unfortunately I don’t think this argument really carries much weight with the voters
“McNair had less to work with being part of a conservative smash mouth offense, while Anderson had more skilled offensive teammates.”
And I don’t think Anderson has a very strong case for the Hall, but I do know its more likely and is better than what McNair has
Obviously McNabb had a little better career than McNair but who do we think had more talent?
I went in thinking McNair but McNabb had awful good feet in the pocket which helped him elude the rush. McNair was a better runner while McNabb was more of a Fran Tarkington scrambler. McNair paid dearly for his running style. McNair had a little better arm IMO but was less cautious with his throws. I’d still give a slight edge to McNair in talent but I’d give McNabb the edge with intangibles. The biggest difference between the two was one had Andy Reid and the other Jeff Fischer.
Kind of fun film to watch on them.
Donovan McNabb 6/0 like other great QB’s didn’t make All Pro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GChgjlFGGFU
Steve McNair 3/0 Co-MVP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCcjb21H5Y
I don’t know about your last statement Paul. If fan popularity and love from a city have any influence, McNair could make it to the HOF one day.
Lamonica didn’t start enough games (88) to be HOFer. He won one AFL Championship when they played Green Bay in the Super Bowl. Even if he had won SB I don’t know if enough. He only had 6 seasons as a starter. Five of those seasons look pretty good.
Paul. no opinion on Tony Romo vs. Danny White?
AS a Cowboys fan which was the most difficult NFC Championship to lose? and can’t say all of them. I think I know. 1980, 1981 or 1982?
Haha … We All Know …
If Drew Pearson breaks that great tackle by Eric Wright for a TD, against SF … more Cowboys would be in the Hall including Pearson, Martin, Walls, and maybe Jones …
Romo over White, Romo had better skills and all around better player. White was able to get team to NFC championship, but also had better teammates. If you asked me today to pick one based on their prime, I would pick Romo. And BTW neither will ever get into the Hall nor should they. 1981 was the hardest lost as it came down to two plays: Clark catch and Pearson non TD. Dallas was outplayed and completely over matched in 1980 and 1982 games.
I didn’t know!! :o
I thought it was the lose to the hated Eagles after the high of beating the Falcons the week before in stunning fashion. The Eagles ran the ball down the Cowboy’s throat with Wilbert Montgomery in the second half of a 7-7 halftime game. Their fans went crazy during that game! Maybe the Eagles became hated after this win?
I really didn’t bring up to torture Cowboy fans. lol But hard not to think about Danny White without remembering just like Jim Kelly and 4 SB losses. Three NFC Championship games in a row is a really good accomplishment. White could never live up to the Staubach mystique. The Patriots are going to go through the same sort of transition this year. We’ll see if Belichick can pull off what Tom Landry did without a drop off.
XFL files for bankruptcy. Too bad they didn’t get a decent shot a success.
Better QB, Roger Staubach 6/0 vs Troy Aikman 6/0? Now I am trying to torture. lol I think it’s Staubach not really close. What QB wouldn’t want the talent on the 1990’s Cowboys?
2007 and 2014 were Romo’s best chance to win it all. Both felt like SB teams.
2007 Romo had two HOFers in Witten and Owens but not a great running game. They were stymied by the Giants. Thank you!!!! Or IMO Patriots would be the second team to have undefeated season. Dolphins still rule! LOL
The 2014 team was pretty great and well balanced with Demarco Murray and Dez Bryant. Got a little lucky versus Lions than were robbed in Green Bay.
I thought White was better than Romo …
Both had ability, but Romo could never win a divisional playoff, and always seemed to run out of gas by the end of the seasons, despite having plenty of talent on his teams …
White had crucial fumbles, which cost his team in the three consecutive Championship games he played, though he got injured against Washington but won two dramatic divisional games against the Falcons in 78/79 and 80/81, that the Cowboys should have lost.
His season ending victories over the Eagles in 80 and Giants in 85 that put the Cowboys in the playoffs, were also dramatic wins and the Cowboys might have also made noise in 86 and 87, had he not broken his wrist against the Giants, that spelled the end of his career.
Dramatic losses to the Redskins at the end of the 83 and 84 seasons also hurt Cowboys playoff chances but looking back, those were two of the best games Joe Theisman ever played for Washington, while our defence was starting to slowly get worse despite the win over the Giants in 85, that was Whites last division title.
Yes, the Cowboys had talent in the early 80s but our division those years was the toughest in football unlike the division Tony Romo played in.
Dallas had to get by Parcells/Belichicks Giants, Gibbs Redskins, Vermeils Eagles, Ditkas Bears
Walshs 49ers, not to mention tough Falcons, Rams and Vikings teams … a LOADED SB winning conference … only the Raiders in the AFC, could win a couple of SBs against these teams.
Romo did have good running games with the Cowboys during his tenure …
He started out with Julio Jones, who had talent but to this day, Parcells should have drafted Steven Jackson, who had a great career with the Rams …
Then Romo had a shared backfield with Jones and hard running Marion Barber, who always got the crowd going, being an eventual starter but the team under Romo would run out of gas.
Then Romo had Murray and also Felix Jones, a fast, big play back, so he had a running game but when the Cowboys blew that lead to GB in 14/15 … I knew Romo just couldnt get the job done. I never felt that way about Danny White …
Aikman was great, especially in big games but Staubach is one of the best to ever play …
Take away LC Greenwood for Pittsburgh and Staubach could have four rings …
White had better overall defense on team than Romo did, but when asked who was the better QB it was Romo. As to Aikman vs Staubach, and I am a big fan and supporter of Aikman who has some real talent but it’s not even close, Staubach was the complete package and has a serious case for a top 10 QB of all time
Counting the Atlanta game in 78, where White rallied the Cowboys from behind after Staubach went out with a concussion …
White was 6-5 in Postseason games
Romo was 2-4 … Nuff Said
Boy, I just learned a lot. You guys really remember this stuff. Dallas did have a decent running game with jones and Barber but I suspected it was more due to having threats like Witten and Owens. Not sure it they could count on with those guys but I’ll defer to you guys.
Yes Paul, Staubach is in the GOAT QB conversation of top ten with his 96-35 record or 71% games won. However like other greats Bart Starr, Joe Montana and Tom Brady, how much of the QB’s success is attributed to the Head Coach can be debated.
Terry Bradshaw was 122-55 or 69% games won. He’s not in my top ten despite 4 SB wins. He’s not in my top ten best QB’s but is in this list.
My Goat List for greatest modern day winning QB’s which includes Regular Season and Playoffs.
1. Tom Brady – 6 SB wins and 9 appearances
2. Joe Montana – 4 SB wins
3. John Elway – 2 SB wins and 5 appearances
4. Roger Staubach – 2 SB wins and 4 appearances.
5. Terry Bradshaw – 4 SB wins
6. Troy Aikman – 3 SB wins
7. Peyton Manning – 2 SB wins and 3 appearances
8. Ben Roethlisberger – 2 SB wins and 3 appearances
9. Bart Starr – 2 SB wins and 3 NFL Championships
10. Len Dawson – 1-1 in SB’s and 3 AFL Championships
Just outside the cut : Bob Griese – 2 SB Wins and 3 appearances.
Note: the reason Starr is lower is due to degree of difficulty for success compared to today in the NFL. Also the only reason Griese doesn’t make list is because he missed so much of SB winning season. I personally think he was slightly better than Starr and Dawson. In the way I think Stabler was slightly better than Griese. Evolution of the position. Griese was known for being the best QB at reading Defenses in his era.
10.
I think Staubach would now make my Top Ten Best QB list if I wrote a new one. Maybe I can find my old list. I think he fell just outside. One thing I feel strongly about is that Staubach was better than Bradshaw. I had Bob Griese like 22nd so I tried to be fair.
Anyone missing sports to watch like I am? I need the diversion. lol It sucks the XFL went bankrupt today.
I went back and read all the comments from last year on the players we thought were potential HOF picks. It was great with so many different posters and thoughtful comments. Where did everyone go?????
Funny thing I noticed too was of all the players we wanted, Bachslunch had more of his selected than anyone. He even had Jimbo Covert in his top 10 list. lol
I sure hope the NFL plays this season. Believe it or not I’m running out of stuff to talk about. :)
Not to nitpick TonyP but Starr won 5 NFL Champs and 2 SBs …
Manning was 2-2 in SBs …
I missed the NCAA tournament (not a fanatic about it but would watch games and is a great watch), really was not a fan of XFL so no loss there for me, don’t really watch full games of NHL or NBA, except for championships, but the Masters is an annual spring tradition that I really missed this year. NFL FA and draft news feeds my football off season and yea looking forward to the draft as I do each year. Frankly in any year I enjoy the off season break from NFL and NCAA football that I follow closely and watch many games each fall. If those seasons are cancelled in fall 2020 (thinking unlikely that is case but could be), that would be hard.
And TonyP, I really find it hard that you are running out of stuff to talk about LOL, but I am sure one of us could start up a “this player should be in the Hall” to get you going??
“White was 6-5 in Postseason games
Romo was 2-4 … Nuff Said“
Yep but in terms of pure ability and talent I would still pick Romo if asked to select one from their prime. I still contend White played on a better overall team and perhaps more significant played with one of the best coaches of all time. I do think White achieved a lot, and three NFL consecutive NFC championship games is a worthy accomplishment so I am by no means diminishing his career, just making a call based on who was the better QB and I watched they both play it’s simply my judgement on what I saw with my eyes in terms of talent.
IMO Danny white was not better than Tony Romo, but D. white for the most part played on better teams. However they both played on teams that underachieved in reality, not that they should have run off a number of Super Bowls.
My top QB’s since WWII
1. Tom Brady
2. Joe Montana
3. Peyton Manning
4. Johnny Unitas
5. Dan Marino
6. John Elway
7. Bret Favre
8. Otto Graham
9. Drew Brees
10. Roger Staubach
11. Aaron Rodgers
11. Bart Starr
12. Steve young
13. Troy Aikman
14. Norm van Brcklin
15. Ben Roethlisberger
** I believe Russell Wilson will pass many of these in the next couple of years**
Thats the tough thing about choosing HOF worthy QBs …
You want a mixture of talented thrower and consistent winning … talented running, like Tarkenton, Staubach, Bradshaw, Grogan Young, Vick, McNabb, McNair, Cunningham, now Wilson and Newton, should also help a case.
There are talented throwers who dont win enough, especially today, with the changing of the game but also winners that led their teams well but werent talented thrower/runners …
As you guys know, I skew more towards the winners that fans remember more …
These are the QBs I would put in the HOF …
Tommy Thompson
Charlie Conerly
Roman Gabriel
Phil Simms
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Russell Wilson
Ben Rothlisberger
These QBs just missed out …
Tobin Rote … a great runner who could win with a good supporting cast … won a World/NFL and AFL Championship, only Namath and Dawson also did it …
Frank Ryan … Only Cleveland QB to win a championship other than Otto Graham but his prime was only 5-6 years …
Jack Kemp … A winner with bad statistics … If Dawson can get in the HOF, why not Kemp who was 2 – 3 in AFL Championship games with two different teams ?
John Brodie … A great thrower, who did not win enough big games … If Jurgenson could get in without winning, why not Brodie ?
Daryle Lamonica … A great thrower and winner … He only started six seasons but has the highest winning pct other than Graham and Brady and was part of three AFL Championships …
John Hadl … another great thrower who won more than Brodie or Jurgenson …
Ken Anderson … another great thrower who could also run but just didnt win enough big games …
Bert Jones … great talent but was too injury prone like Andrew Luck
Jim Plunkett … A rare two time champion like Thompson that wont make the Hall, but like Rote, was a late bloomer who could win with a supporting cast … 4 – 0 in championship games like Eli Manning …
Joe Theismann … another late bloomer like Plunkett but not beating out Billy Kilmer hurt his career …
Danny White … Needed a SB win to help his cause but came up short …
Randall Cunningham … Great talent like Anderson who didnt win enough big games but like McNabb and McNair had hardly any weapons to work with …
Boomer Esiason … another great thrower who like Brodie, Hadl, Lamonica and Anderson, did not win enough big games …
Rich Gannon … another late bloomer like Plunkett and Thiesmann, who comes up short
Donovan McNabb … An athlete and winner who lacked weapons like Cunningham and McNair … I have no problem if he gets in with 107 wins and five NFC championship game appearances …
Steve McNair … A better runner than thrower but a winner despite having only George and Mason helping him on offence …
Eli Manning … 4 – 0 in championship games but regressed too much later in his career
Matt Ryan … Great career but didnt win enough big games
Tony Romo … Great athlete who didnt win enough big games
Philip Rivers … Another thrower like Ryan, Romo and Stafford, who couldnt win enough big games …
Cam Newton … talented runner like Cunningham, McNabb and McNair who couldnt win enough big games …
RIP … Willie Davis
Perhaps another victim to Covid virus …
We have lost what, six players in the last two weeks ?
Along with Willie McGinest, Charles Haley, LC Greenwood, George Andrie, one of the best big game/ postseason pass rushers ever …
Yea brutal month of PFHOF loses with Davis, Retzlaff, Mitchell, plus Shofner
Dempsey and Brown too Paul …
Could it all be Covid related ?
Reminds me of the movie Logans Run …
Yea but I was only pointing out PFHOFers or candidates for the Hall
Brian, I knew that about Starr , I just wrote out to conclusion. I should of went back and wrote like I did for Dawson. Yup, I missed a Manning SB. Forgot about New Orleans. Probably stays in same place.
Jurgenson was part of the winning with 1960 Champion Eagles although mostly a back up. John Hadl the same thing with the 1963 Champion Changers.
Just a guess about Kemp and AFL players in general, more credence is given to accomplishments in the second half of AFL’s 10 year run. At least that’s the way I look at it. lol Kemp’s stats are not good. He never threw more TD’s than Int’s in a season.
I’ll stick with what I said last year, no QB who ended their career by year 2000 is HOF worthy IMO. That said I’b be OK if Phil Sims makes it one day.
Careers ending after 2000, I see McNabb (hard to say because never a fan of his), Tom Brady, Peyton Manning,
Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Ben Rothlisberger and Russell Wilson (unless his career falls off a cliff).
I wonder if I supported Kurt Warner? If I did I might of got caught up in his popularity. Hard not to root for such a good guy. I guess everyone will point to his 2 MVP’s but other than that I find it hard to say now he had a HOF career. He had some of the greatest skill players any QB has ever had. All said and done he will have played with 2 HOF RB’s and 3-4 HOF WR’s in his five elite years. The rest of his career is forgettable.
The one I don’t know about HOF is Anquan Boldin 3/0 but I suspect one day he may.
Earl Morrall and Billy Kilmer were good to very good QB’s but not HOFers.
Eli Manning and Joe Flacco are two peas in a pod. More shine on Manning though playing for New York and for who they beat in SB’s.
We agree on a lot Brian but these lists are so subjective when you blend in winning regular season, being clutch in big games, when a player played and raw skill that few people agree. But they are fun to do.
For me it’s too hard to say I know where Graham and Van Brocklin fit.
My list puts an emphasis on the QB’s skill and ability to put points on the board in their prime to win a given game. Less on winning it all which has more to do with clutch performance, excellent Coaching and overall Team performance.
With these players you knew they would bring their ability and you were going to have to score points probably many points to beat them. I also consider overall skill.
My top QB’s since 1960:
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Peyton Manning
3. BrettFavre
4. Dan Marino
5. Steve Young
6. Drew Brees
7. John Elway
8. Roger Staubach
9. Dan Fouts
10.
This was a really hard list to come up with!!! I got confused. LOL I don’t know where to put Brady? I know he’s not the most talented QB ever. He don’t scare me as a fan but the system he plays in does and his winning ability. Manning always scared me with his passing. Some of these guys like Staubach and Elway had great ability but didn’t get to play in an opened up offense until the end of their careers so I have to project what they would of been. Drew Brees is another tough one. You can’t say he doesn’t put out tons of TD’s like Brady but I wonder about raw skill. Actually I’d put Brees ahead of Brady because he’s always been a throwing machine since High School. he’s a little magician. It’s a wonder his arm don’t fall off.
Favre had a 4-5 year stretch where he was as hot as any QB ever. I think people forget how great Favre was because of some of the nonsense at the end of his career. Plus he threw some really tough interceptions. And Steve Young was sensational in his prime with all the skill in the world you’d expect from a number one pick in the draft. Manning was a number one pick also so all the talent was there unlike Brady. I remember in the mid-80’s thinking Dan Fouts was the best QB I’ve ever seen. He threw such a great ball.
What looking at all these TD stats show me is throwing for 30 TD’s in a season still is really good and has been for a long time. Fouts set the standard. The Brady 50 or Manning 55 is really an huge anomaly. Marino shocked the world with 48, 30 and 44 than dropped off with only one 30 TD season the rest of the way. Warren Moon had a couple in the 30’s than not that much . I think of these guys as throwing like crazy but it really don’t show up in TD passes. Most of the players listed did have high scoring Offenses though. Peyton Manning. unless you can find someone else, has the record % of TD’s thrown for a season. The year he threw 49 TD’s he threw one TD every 10th throw. lol Only Aaron Rodgers close at 9% of the time.
Who want to pick the 10th most skill QB? lol
Tom Brady, Fran Tarkington, Warren Moon, Ben Roethlisberger, Phillip Rivers?? Maybe some one else? Jim Kelly had a great arm coming out of college and he was and is tough as nails.
I think it’s fairly safe to say with the talent on the list they all could of played for most cities and been successful. Maybe not Favre with the ulcers he’d give his Head Coach. lol He had the right Head Coach to start out with in Green Bay. Favre and Jimmy Johnson would of been interesting.
I guess I found something to say Paul. hahaha
Yes, RIP Willie Davis- A great pass rusher who could also stop the run. Yet another player that slipped through the grasp of the Cleveland Browns. If the Browns had held onto all there talent, they could have been the NY Yankees of the 50’s and 60’s. As great as Paul Brown was, no leader of a franchise gave up on more talent than he did.
Youre right Bill … Paul Brown gave up a bunch of great talent … no wonder he never won again after Otto Graham … he must have been loathsome to a lot of players because they came into their own after leaving him.
A truly great but overrated coach …
yea who knew TonyP had something to post about after all LOL
hahaha feel free to critique my list, that’s what these lists are for. I’ll get back to HOF worthy soon. :)
Willie Davis was one of the best, maybe the best of his era. Maybe 120 sacks in career and said he had 25 sacks in a year. He really was dominate for several years. Sadly, many great players are going to pass if near future. I never think about much but felt surprised Fran Tarkington is 80. You kind of forget these icons age. lol
Oh no. Paul Brown over-rated? He’s rated high for good reason. All Head Coaches have misjudgments. I I imagine some let their ego’s get involved after they make a name for themselves.
And where the hell is Joe Montana TonyP ?
His football instincts and intelligence were better than any QB who ever played except for maybe John Unitas … but John wasnt very mobile …
Dont say he was a system QB because like Ken Anderson before him, Montana MADE the system, while evading pash rushers at his FACE … haha
No, no, he was on my list right up to til the end. I accidently left him off. lol I think is comparable to Roger Staubach in talent. I’d put behind Roger. Yes, Montana would of been successful just about anywhere. Hard to know where to put Brees? I don’t feel confident that Brady would of thrived any where he went. Maybe I’m not seeing right?
I think what you meant Brian, is Paul Brown wouldn’t be on your Mount Rushmore? I don’t know what is better than great. Who are the one’s your Mt. Rushmore? It’s more complicated with Belichick on it now.
The Players Paul Brown “Misjudged” and let go or didnt keep …
YA Tittle … HOF
Babe Parilli
Milt Plum
Len Dawson … HOF
John Unitas … HOF
Doug Atkins … HOF
Willie Davis … HOF
Art Donovan … HOF
Henry Jordan … HOF
Bobby Mitchell … HOF
Dick LeBeau … HOF
Doak Walker … HOF
Mac Speedie … HOF
Bill Quinlan
Billy Howton
Frank Clarke … Cowboy Ring Of Honor
Chris Burford … Chiefs HOF
Jim Marshall … Vikings HOF
Paul Flatley
Don Shula … HOF Coach
Bert Rechichar
Carl Taseff
Charlie Joiner … HOF
Mike Reid … early retirement for music career
Bill Bergey
Have I left anyone out ?? …
A great coach who was spoiled by Automatic Otto Graham …
My Top Coaches … In Order
Weeb Ewbank
George Halas
Vince Lombardi
Don Shula
Bill Belichick
Bill Walsh
Paul Brown
Tom Landry
Joe Gibbs
Chuck Noll
Bill Parcells
Curley Lambeau
Somebody needs to straighten out! lol It’s was Bill’s list of QB’s
HOF QB List – Greatest Can’t Miss Talent/Skill
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. John Elway
3. Brett Favre
4. Dan Marino
5. Peyton Manning
6. Ben Roeslisberger
7. Steve Young
9. Roger Staubach
10. Joe Namath
11. Jim Kelly
12 Bob Griese
13 Len Dawson
14 Drew Brees
15. Joe Montana
16. Fran Tarkington
I think this is the consensus Mt. Rushmore. Halas, Belichick, Lombardi and Brown. Some add Walsh.
I’ll go Halas, Lombardi, Belichick and Shula based on what you tell me about Brown.
than in order:
5. Tom Landry
6. Bill Walsh
7. Joe Gibbs
8. Paul Brown
9. Chuck Noll
10. Weeb Ewbank
I went back and saw your previous QB list TonyP with Montana #2 … my apologeez
Brian: Frank Clarke is not in the Cowboys Ring of Honor
Brian has Weeb Ewbank as his #1 coach, WOW somebody has been in quarantine staying at home way too long
As to skilled QBs, all I will say is thats it’s not a system or coach who brings him team back to win at end of a game, in closing minutes to get team TD or into FG position, that takes skill and talent, so yes Brady deserves to be on any top 10 skilled QB list
Youre right Paul, though I swore I saw Clarke’s name lined up around old Texas Stadium …
Yes Weeb Ewbank is # 1 … Why ??
He was a great offensive line coach who helped Paul Brown win in Cleveland …
He built the Baltimore Colts from literally expansion team to Back to Back Champions in 58/59
He Coached John Unitas to the HOF
He built the New York Jets from a bankrupt/dying AFL team to the AFL AND World Champions in 68/69
He Coached Joe Namath to the HOF
He was the best at building a champion
He was the best big game coach going 4-0 in Championship Games
He WON the two biggest NFL Games in HISTORY … 58 NFL Championship and 69 Super Bowl III
The Only Coach to win World Championships with TWO teams !!
The Only Coach to coach TWO HOF QBs …
Walsh coached Montana but Young for only three years as a backup …
He gave future owner AL DAVIS his start in Pro Football as a scout and recommended him to coach in college …
#Best Builder Of A Champion
#Best Big Game Coach
#Won Two Biggest Games In Pro Football History
WEEB !!!!
Want More Weeb Ewbank ??
His Speech to the Colt Team before beating the Giants in the FIRST OVERTIME CHAMPIONSHIP GAME IS LEGENDARY !!
He slugged HOF Linebacker Sam Huff in the mouth for piling on Raymond Berry on the Colts Sideline !!
He signed Joe Namath to the richest contract in history that saved the AFL and later forced the AFL/NFL MERGER !!
He coached the HEIDI BOWL which changed TV Football Programming History …
He coached in the game where opposing runner OJ Simpson crossed 2000 Yards !!
BIG GAMES/BIG MOMENTS … WEEB !!!!
You forgot the .502 win %
Yes … he couldnt sustain champions, that is true …
He also, like George Allen, stuck to his veteran players too long, not trusting enough younger players …
But I am not going to let a few facts get in the way of a great writeup !! … haha
To be honest, most of his losses came either early while building his teams, like Jimmy Johnson with Dallas or when Unitas and especially, Namath got hurt …
In the late 50s and late 60s, the Colts and Jets offences were considered the best in football
Before the Dallas Cowboys with Staubach got popular, the Colts were the most popular and considered “Americas Team”
Okay Paul, TonyP, Tony, Andy, Bill, Rasputin, Bachslunch, Justin, THE GREATEST, BSLO, BoKnows 34 and others …
Which QBs would you guys put in the HOF ??
Which QBs?
Hmmmm… only the good ones
Hmmmm….only the deserving ones
OK OK goes like this…some combination of:
1) multiple all pro selections
2) multiple championships
3) multiple MVPs
4) led league in key passing stats multiple times
5) top 15 in career passing stats
Don’t have any of these? Shouldn’t even be in the conversation. So no to Gabriel, Sims, Cunningham, Vick, McNabb, Romo
I had Weeb Ewbank at 10!!! He’s ahead of Curly Lambeau, Bill Parcells, Hank Stram, Jimmy Johnson, John Madden, Mike Holmgren, Tony Dungy, Bill Cowher. Them ain’t chopped liver! :) Certainly tougher winning a SB than NFL and AFL Championships. And harder to win SB’s as time goes by with greater parity.
Yes, I have Montana at 2 when you count the whole QB package. I had him number one before the last Brady SB win.
Only yes to McNabb and that’s way down the road.
Brady developed over time into one of the more skilled QB’s. My 2nd list changed a bit tthough wanting QB’s who came into the League with the skills that said can’t miss talent as much as that’s possible. Many were 1st round draft picks. My hang up with Brady is I don’t think he came into the League as a very sure bet. Maybe he was and everyone missed it? Right or wrong I think he could of missed in the wrong situation more than the rest. I should of had Warren Moon on the list. Too bad he couldn’t come directly to the NFL.
Moon is a great thrower and athlete but if not for his Canadian championships, I wouldnt put him in the HOF …
Gabriel should have had two MVP awards Paul … Had he won a championship, he would be in, I believe …
Of all of them Kemp, Hadl, Brodie, Johnson, Snead, Kilmer and anyone else Gabriel has the best shot at HOF IMO. Hurts that he’s remember for not having good ball security ala Dave Krieg who was decent playerthe with nice stats. Wow, I didn’t know Roman Gabriel had his own radio show on American Family Radio abut Faith Family and Sports. I’ll need to check it out. It’s one of the few channels I get in my little town. He’s 79 years old
Anyone remember him on Gilligan’s Island episode? lol He had Hollywood leading man good looks to go with his game. I bet he was popular in L.A. I never saw him play in his prime. I remember the trade to the Eagles being a big deal. He had a little resurgence to his game throwing to Harold Jackson but the record was still bad. Eagles were really bad in the early 70’s. Easy pickings for the Cowboys. It wasn’t until they got Bill Bergy and Dick Vermeil they started to turn around.
Brian, you don’t think Moon’s 9 PB’s same as John Elway and nearly 50,000 yards with 1990 Offensive POY should get him in HOF should? You might be right. He was a sympathetic figure for his exclusion from the NFL. Paul, is it possible he didn’t really meet the criteria for a HOF QB he should of? I didn’t realize he started out so bad with the Oilers. I do remember the heart breaking losses in the playoffs. He did win 3 playoff games. I couldn’t remember any.
I think some of those teams really underachieved. Ray Childress was a heck of a player with Sean Jones. Drew Hill, Ernest Givens and Haywood Jefferies were a really good trio of WR ‘s. The Team had lots of talent but had trouble getting their “stuff” together. I felt sorry for Jack Pardee. He was a good HC but man was he snake bit with that group .
Warren Moon was a HOFamer even without the Canadian Football League stats. Last night I watched Rams vs Cowboys 1985 playoff game. It was the game that Eric Dickerson rushed for 248 yards, but it was hard not to notice how poorly both Dieter Brock and Danny White played. Part of D. White’s problem was his mechanics were not very good. He was a decent athlete but held onto the ball way too long and took a lot of sacks.
Two nights ago I watched a Warren Moon vs. Chiefs game from 1990. Watch those two games and just tell me who would you rather have in the HOF. Danny white or Warren Moon? I have also watched a Jim Kelly game recently. I would also take Warren Moon ahead of Jim Kelly.
We all know Moon could throw the football but the Oilers underachieved …
Like Romo with the Cowboys, the Moon led Oilers could barely win a wild card game, despite talent on both sides of the ball …
A lot of Hall of Fame players before and after Moon to never win a SB … Moon also could never win on the road …
Of course getting hit all the time in a chuck and duck offence didnt help his chances of winning a championship …
No one mentions Bernie Kosar but he at least won clutch divisional games with the Browns but the team fell apart when Mr Genius, Art Modell got rid of Coach Schottenheimer …
Lets get back to Phil Simms …
He won a SB and Quarterbacked the Giants to a 10-1 record before getting injured on the 90/91 team that won the SB with Hostetler
Like Danny White with the Cowboys, he faced a lot of great NFC teams which won most of the Super Bowls against the AFC …
But other than TE Bavaro, can anyone think of a great RB or WR that Simms could work with ?
Morris was tough but as tall as my sister and no one can think of any lasting receivers with this team … OJ Anderson was past his prime and the offensive line was tough but mostly stationary …
Yet, Simms hung in there and won a lot of games … he and McNabb are the only QBs to win over 100 games but not make the HOF while Bledsoe is barely over 500 with his 100 wins …
Back in the 80s, Giants Stadium was a cold, windy place to play in Dec and Jan but Simms got them into the playoffs despite being injured a lot his first five seasons when the Giants offensive line was terrible …
“Gabriel should have had two MVP awards Paul … Had he won a championship, he would be in, I believe …”
He won the NFL MVP and Bert Bell Award in the same year, sorry but that’s one MVP season there
“Moon is a great thrower and athlete but if not for his Canadian championships, I wouldnt put him in the HOF”
He retired in top 5 of all major NFL career passing stats, led the league multiple times in various season passing stats, retired with four seasons of 4,000 yrds when that was a much less common occurrence, so based on his NFL career alone I have no issue with his election to the Hall.
Both Simms and Gabriel (along with Anderson) would require election by the seniors committee, as we know that’s always an uncertain and unknown possibility, but I am not so sure any of them are as deserving as many others from other positions also eligible. Its always possible with the seniors committee, but just doesn’t seem too likely, but you never know. Personally I have 30+ more deserving candidates than Simms or Gabriel, and 10-15 more than Anderson.
Gabriel had a MVP type season in 67 and won it in 69 but both seasons lost in the divisional playoffs …
The 1967 season had to be really frustrating because the Rams eliminated the unbeaten Colts on the final game of the regular season to win the division but despite a 11-1-2 record and having beaten GB just the week before the Colt game, the Rams had to go to Milwaukee to play the Packers again, and lost in the playoff.
To this day, I still cant see how Green Bay got that home divisional game with only a 9-4-1 record ?
Baltimore Colts fans were upset because they believe despite the loss to the Rams that ended their unbeaten but tied season, they should have played the Rams again with matching records but the Rams won the tiebreaker based on points …
Prior to 1975 the playoff sites rotated between divisions and were known prior to start of season, season records didn’t matter
I’ve never entertained Danny White as a HOFer nor Tony Romo. Danny White’s fumbles and interceptions were killers. Other times he looked really good. No doubt Romo was more talented than White. But when I considered the overall performance and when they played it brings White closer to Romo. All moot neither won anything or will be in the HOF.
Paul, Brian isn’t saying Gabriel won 2 MVPs, if he had and gone to a SB. I agree he’d be a HOFer.
I agree Paul, Simms could very likely be in the HOF in 10-15 years. LOL
Moon has the stats and more importantly passes the eye test so I understand it. If Jim Plunkett looked like Moon would he be in the HOF? I don’t mean color.
I knew that rotating schedule about championship games but not divisional playoff games, especially starting in 1967 but I guess youre right.
Look I love Warren Moons game … He was as good a thrower as any passer, including Jurgensen, Fouts and just below Marino …
He was tough too, taking way to much punishment running the Chuck And Duck offence but according to Pro Football Journal, Moon had a .352 road winning percentage, thrower or not, that is not HOF caliber to me
Despite Bradys greatness, Montana has the second highest road winning pct in history at .684 …
Only Graham is higher …
I am not a huge fan of counting QBs Win/loss record as an important and relevant stat or accomplishment, just too many other factors involved with a team winning or not. Yes often QBs get too much credit for wins and too much blame due the losses. Their win number is interesting and worth including, I just don’t think it does (or should) be a key deciding factor. And I am taking about career wins, clearly getting a team to SB and winning a SB should be a factor since that is the aim of playing and fair judgement of a QB more so then any other player, but was referring to career wins/losses
So I don’t really care about Moons career road win%, to me it’s not a measure of judging a QBs case for the Hall nor should be winning 100 games, way too much there dependent on other players and coaching which are out of hands of the QB
I was loving talking about all time winning percentage but I agree with you Paul especially before 1993 when free agency became more prevalent with the salary cap system. Sometimes you
Generally I think having a winning record is important for a QB and is likely important in their QB HOF evaluation. Only one HOFer has a losing Regular Season record so For me a .500 record is where I draw the line. Any worse than that is too much losing. My thinking is especially since 1993; a HOF QB should be able to lift his team to .500 records most years. allowing for a couple really bad years and expecting good seasons leading to the Playoffs.
I wasn’t referring so much to winning vs losing career win records for QBs but considering that only QBs with a high win % makes for a strong case on it’s own. Clearly any QB with a losing record isn’t likely to be strong candidate and not getting elected, and those with poor win records better have much more to their case.
I don’t think a Sonny Jurgenson could get elected to the HOF today. More QB’s are high quality now
Yes Brian, it’s amazing that Simms never had WR’s of any stature. He had a real mish-mash of no names. Only in his last year did he have someone I consider a quality WR in Mark Jackson who was also at the end of his career. And it’s not like star WR never having a PB but he was good as one of the “three amigos” with John Elway in Denver.
Simms had tough but smaller receivers who were inconsistent … Manuel, Ingram, Baker other guys could help the offence but the Giants liked to run the ball. Woolfolk was a bust but Morris, Anderson, Meggett and Hampton ran hard behind a blue collar line.
Many people thought Hampton would be a star runner but he got injured and never lived up to his promise. Bavaro could do it all, and would be in the HOF, had it not been for injuries …
All I know is that I grew up watching Staubach, then Danny White and they won most of their games till the wheels came off in 88 and 89.
As a fan of the Cowboys, if they had a QB that only won 50% of his games, I would want another QB.
Leading the offence and scoring points is one of the QBs jobs … another is elevating the play of the players surrounding him, even on defence and winning QBs find a way to do that.
Otherwise throwers like Jeff George, Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Steve Bartkowski, Norm Snead, Jim Everett, Carson Palmer, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde and Boomer Esiason, would get elected, and they wont …
Agree about 50% on the QB but back in the day it wasn’t as easy to turn around a Team. The Washington Redskins hung with Sonny Jurgensen despite mediocre season after season. They knew he wasn’t the problem. Jim Hart is another QB sort of like that but he eventually paid off with playoff appearances.
NFL HOF QB’s who spent most of their career in the 1960’s were Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr and Fran Tarkington. Can’t have only three! Maybe if there are couple more Jurgensen doesn’t get in? Was Joe Namath right when he said the AFL had more good QB’s than the NFL in 1968? He listed six which included Bob Griese.
Jurgensen was definitely HOF worthy for his time but I can safely say, we will NEVER see a QB like Sonny Jurgensen in the HOF again! Never went to a post season game as a starter, amazing. :)
Joe Morris was one hell of a sister RB for a couple years! lol
Yeah, bad defences hurt Jurgensen but from what I read about him, he wasnt a good play caller either … he never ran his backs enough and liked to always throw the ball. He was like a lot of throwing QBs, he didn’t give his defense enough of a rest …
Jim Hart had lots of talent on offence and defence but he was a turnover machine … never played well till Coryell arrived. The Cardinals had a good QB in Charlie Johnson but because of his intellect, the military needed him in Vietnam, probably to help develop weapons because he was a skilled chemist … That gave Hart the job
You know what, this may sound crazy but if the voters ever elected Earl Morrall to the HOF … it wouldnt bother me …
Yes, he is a journeyman but he also accomplished a lot. He won the MVP award and NFL Championship in 1968 … then had the terrible SB but the Jets defence was better than people realized.
In 1970, he played a lot and helped the Colts go back to the SB, winning the game when Unitas got hurt …
In 1972 after Griese got hurt, Morrall won 10 straight games to help the Dolphins go undefeated and contribute to his second SB win …
He didnt play much in 1973 but got his third ring as a backup …
Before being traded to Baltimore, he had good starting seasons with Detroit and the Giants but would either get hurt or didnt play well the following season. He was also elected All Pro twice …
Counting postseason games, including winning the 70/71 SB, he was 67 – 37 an excellent starting record, though he was known as a backup …
Usually know one cares about backup QBs getting a ring but in 70 and 72 Morrall played a lot and was a big part of those Champion Colts and Dolphins teams …
Earl Morrall was a huge stabilizing factor for Miami’s undefeated season. His somewhat limited numbers look good and if I try really hard I could almost justify a case for him but I know he didn’t have a HOF career. He did play well most of the time he got a chance to play but he needed to play more games. Billy Kilmer has a little lesser stats and less accolades but I think he’s a better candidate but he falls short too.
Now if they had a HOF for backups. lol Don Strock comes to mind. Who was the guy behind Craig Morton in Denver? I could look up played in the SB versus Dallas. He didn’t look so good than but had a couple flashes.
Numbers wise Craig Morton isn’t bad. He sure resurrected his career for the Broncos. He was kind of fun to watch. He couldn’t run a lick but could chunk the deep ball. I never saw him play much for Dallas.
We just named a few QB’s that played good into their late 30’s. I guess 40’s like Brady and Brees is pretty rare but they aren’t far off. Morrall played at 42 but he probably didn’t take a lot of punishment. Shula must of liked keeping him around. lol It seemed like Steve DeBerg played forever and he actually started. We know Vinny Testaverde did.
Bobby Hebert was a QB I liked. He’s got decent stats but only played about 100 games. Didn’t he win a USFL Title with Michigan? I thought Anthony Carter was going to be a great WR in Minnesota.
Norris Weese was the Denver QB in the SB. They could of played anyone you could name at QB that day and Denver wasn’t beating that Cowboys Defense. LOL It was the Cowboys day and they knew it! Kind of like when they played Miami. They were going to get rid of some frustration. Plus they had a new shiny toy named Tony Dorsett. :)
Do we have a Lynn Swann/ John Stallworth situation with Drew Pearson/Tony Hill? I think what may be happening is they are cancelling each other out. Their careers overlapped for 7 years. Hill is taking just enough shine off Pearson that they question if Pearson deserves HOF. Pearson led the Cowboys in receiving four times while Hill did eight times. When Pearson should of been in his prime Hill was outshining him. They have nearly identical career stats much like Mark Duper/Mark Clayton. No doubt Pearson is a better a HOF candidate than Hill but it does muddy the picture a little IMO.
Tony Hill is not cancelling out Drew Pearson. The fact remains that Drew Pearson is a borderline candidate. Just like Cliff branch and Harold Jackson and to some extent Sterling Shape. I believe Drew Pearson will get in, but it is not a crime against HOF voters if he doesn’t or has to wait awhile. Del Shoffner probably has the best case before any of them.
I shouldn’t of said Hill was canceling out Pearson. Looking at 3/3 and memorable catches and the team Pearson played for compared to other HOF WR with lesser profiles this should be a whole lot easier, the way it was for Lynn Swann.
I’m looking for a reason, I do believe Hill’s presence makes his election a little less clear. But who really knows at this point. When a Harold Carmichael or Charlie Joiner gets in before one of the highest profile WR’s of the 70’s there’s an issue IMO. If Swann wasn’t in the HOF I wouldn’t feel this way. My opinion on Pearson has continued to evolve. No, just looking at his numbers it’s not a slam dunk but now appears to be unfair.
You could say that they cancel each other out but both receivers emerged differently … Pearson was mostly Staubachs go-to target, while White went to Hill …
Hill benefitted more from the rule changes because Pearson had to retire after 83 from injuries from a car accident …
Earl Morrall has one of the most interesting NFL careers and makes for an interesting Hall case, would really take an “out of the box” move by the seniors committee to elect him.
I think Pearson has been hurt by the mix of WR performances in the 70s, period when running offenses were the norm (7/10 season receptions were by non WR), his career stats are not top of the chart, combined with no major playoff numbers, and a career shorten by the car accident. And just that you also have Carmichael, Branch, Jackson, Curtis, Morgan all with cases (plus 5 WR from 70s already in Hall). Hill is not the reason. I really think having Johnson and Harris elected, means no 3rd Cowboy was getting elected.
No playoff numbers ? Are you kiddin ?
Pearson won three playoff games at the end, and almost helped win a fourth if Danny White doesnt fumble in the last minute vs SF
The guy was clutch, a winner and unlike Randy Moss, would routinely go over the middle …
I am well aware of the three playoff game winning catches, but he had no 100y games in playoffs,, and no big games or catches in the 3 SB games. Remember I am not debating his case, was just pointing out reasons voters have not elected him to date. Just look at his career playoff numbers and per game averages to see the issue sone would have with his case
I believe Carolina is the only team without a HOFer. Julius Peppers and Steve Smith could end that.
At the time of his retirement before the 84 season, Pearson was third in postseason yardage and receptions trailing only Branch and Biletnikoff …
Branch of course vaulted ahead of Pearson due to winning the SB in 83/84 …
Pearson trailed only Stallworth and Biletnikoff in TD catches as well …
I would say he has the playoff numbers and a SB with three NFC Championships as well …
@TonyP – According to the HOF website, the Jaguars don’t have a HOFer at all–the Texans have one (Ed Reed), and the Panthers have three (Bill Polian, Kevin Greene, Reggie White), although neither franchise has a player that qualifies as having his primary team be the Panthers or Texans.
Was very surprised to see another franchise–that’s been around for a lot longer than the Panthers, Jags or Texans–that only has three HOFers, and only one player that has that franchise considered his primary franchise–can anyone guess who it is without looking? Can’t be that hard, given how putrid they’ve been…
Bengals … either Parrish or Anderson will be the next one in …
Thanks. The NFL HOF doesn’t make player pick a Team like the MLB HOF. From my point of view, the team that drafts the player, provided he’s there for more than a cup of coffee, than that’s the player’s Team.
I read that Kevin Greene is remembered as a Steeler. That’s his shortest stint and not the Team I remember him as. He’s a Ram in my book just like Jerome Bettis. They were great players there. Deon Sanders is a Falcon. I know it won’t always make since with a player having great success somewhere else but IMO the best way.
I forgot about my Texans. lol Andre Johnson should be the first.
The Bengals have waited a long time for the next HOFer after Anthony Munoz and I don’t really see the next yet. lol Maybe Justin Smith or Andrew Whitworth or Corey Dillon or most likely Geno Atkins?
RIP … Mike Curtis
As I wrote today on SI/TOF/Maven site, he deserved to be in the HOF … Clutch in the postseason.
Gronk with Tompa Bray ??
I agree with thinking of Kevin Greene as a Ram and Deion Sanders as a Falcon and georhe Blanda as an Oiler, but I must admit that I think of Mike Haynes as a Raider and Nick Buoniconti as a Dolphin. I also think of Y.A. Titlle as a Giant but he played way more years with the 49ers.
I think the Hall does it’s best in listing players by franchise indicating those who made their primary contribution for a team, and include on other team lists. Split careers (Deion for example, ATL and DAL) are not as easy but for most part they look right, at least to me. Deion is one of a small number listed as having a primary contribution for 2 teams, Payton will also get same for IND and DEN
Like I said Bill, not perfect. LMBO. Unless you’re a history buff like us, it would be hard for the ordinary fan to make sense of. I can identify with Buoniconti as a Patriot of the AFL but I’ve known his origins my whole life. Maybe they should let the player decide like in MLB? I don’t think anyone else should decide from now on. Probably not a pressing issue though. lol
That’s all about Tom Brady having a friend in the house. Tampa Bay didn’t need Gronk, they have really good TE’s.
“Maybe they should let the player decide like in MLB“
No, very bad idea, creates all kinds of problems for BBWA, reason why PFHOF avoids at all cost and will not change that approach. It really doesn’t matter but can create unnecessary bad feelings to other teams and fans, let’s player take out grudges and play favorites which does nothing to enhance the honor, only detract from it. Objective third party simply listing all teams and which ones player made primary contributions to is right approach. If a few are debatable it’s not an issue worth addressing by hall changing their policy which has been in place since 1963.
And I think the average fan can understand the difference between a player with a few seasons on a team compared to multiple seasons with other team(s) where their career successes occurred- major awards, seasons, playoffs, SBs. I haven’t really seen much debate from fans about a player who deserved to but was not listed as a primary contributor to a team.
There are likely a few cases out of 345 PFHOFers but not enough or so bad as to need correct or new policy on how assigned.
Buoniconti Is listed as primary contributor to both NE and Miami, many players are listed under more than one team as primary contributor, Hall recognizes those and does not limit a player to just one team as primary contributor
I pretty much agree with you Paul and not a pressing issue. I guess I started conversation speaking from the organization’s view as to who they could legitimately claim as their HOF players. Maybe only important to NFL nerds like me. lol
Players like Greene tend to get fan attention from teams that they played on that got to the SB, so Steelers fans see him as a Steeler yet his primary contribution was as Ram. Gets little confusing for fans as the Hall tends to grab best images of players to use on their display and promotion materials that doesn’t always reflect the team where they were a primary contributor. You can see Hall store items, materials, website and other display items for TO that are 49ers, Eagles or Cowboys.And of course many fans think the PFHOF does same as BBHOF and let’s players pick their team so they debate the “selection” even though there isn’t one.
Just heard Chris Simms say that Trent Williams is a HOF player on ProFootballTalk Live. Don’t think it’s worth a post (yet), but anyone agree with that at this point? I think he could be, but needs to come back and put in a few more years at the level he was at pre-injury & holdout.
I think Trent Wiliams needs at least one or two years of Pro-Bowl caliber play to be a certain HOFamer. Losing out to Jason Peters for All-Decade din’t help him.
With only one 2nd team all pro and no all decade, I don’t think he has a strong case and may be on the downside of his career, hard for OL to get elected without all decade or multiple first team all pro
Anyone else geeking out with the draft on?
It was so nice to see something LIVE last night. Most interesting part (besides whatever was going on in the Vrabel household) was seeing Packers draft Love. I know Rodgers was resentful of the way Favre treated him. I wonder how he will treat Love?
Draft was certainly weird and different, some of the virtual aspects were neat, but really think the energy and interactions associated with a live draft in person (crowds, players on stage) was lost and took some excitement way. But there was no choice under the current situation, and all the hype and concern the last few days over technical problems and potential pitfalls was a joke, pretty sure league had setup to allow a team to call in a pick, and NFL already said they would freeze the clock of a team had issues, no team was losing a pick that way.
Seems like (which I had suspected before draft started) that fewer trades would happen given the need to coordinate between multiple people quickly and seamlessly, easier done with everyone in the same room at same time. No major surprises or picks, especially among the key players and top of round one. And of course the 1st round is just the start of the draft-the quick assessment of picks and teams performance always annoys me, and if they did not fill their most immediate need it makes for a bad pick or draft, hello folks you can still fill that need in the rest of the rounds which this year has plenty of depth at many positions. Perhaps without personal workouts, evaluation (based on tape) will turn out to be more sound?? Could see some players fall or rise as some talk that team draft boards varied a lot this year given uncertainty over players that teams could not meet with or work out. Interesting to see how rest of draft plays out over next few days.
It hurts my heart the Dallas Cowboys drafted Cee De Lamb. LOL. If they can play some defense they will be hard to beat with the threats they have now. BIG year for Dak Prescott to deliver.
49ers have the weapons too! Seems like the power may be shifting to NFC.
Chiefs and Ravens will have something to say about who remains on top as they both had quality drafs to add to really good rosters. I also love the Broncos Draft. If only we knew if Drew Lock was going to be decent.
Cee Dee Lamb will be the best Cowboy WR to wear number 88? I’d lean yes.
Who’s the best 88? Tony Gonzalez gets my vote.
Irvin was the best Cowboy, because he was a team leader and clutch in the postseason …
Swann was the best athlete for a #88 in my opinion … though other great players wore the number …
TonyP that’s a high expectation to place on any rookie especially a WR, to exceed WRs who set team records, were on SB winning teams and are (or will be) in the PFHOF. I think Lamb will have a great career, but the best to wear #88, I doubt that very much.
Yup I’m high on Lamb. He only has to top a 3- time SB winning HOFer, a multiple SB Champ famous for the creation of the Hail Mary catch and a 3 year stud TD maker.
Some may depend on Dak Prescott and or who follows at QB. Lamb is being compared to Andre Hopkins but I’ll suggest the high IQ of Tim Brown. If so that would mean about 9 PB’s and 100 TD’s. Of course he needs to win a few big games lol to top Michael Irvin 5/1 career. Ok, maybe slightly less than 50%. LOL
Do y’all think Irvin was a more talented WR than Pearson? Talent is a loaded word I know. lol I don’t think I can evaluate fairly because as a Cowboys non fan. I didn’t appreciate some of Irvin’s talent’s. LOL Let’s just say Irvin was able to turn the tables on the DB’s like no WR before or after IMO.
Swann a better athlete than the basketball player Tony Gonzalez? hmmm I’ll give you more graceful with his dance background. IMO, too many WR’s fall in the great athlete category to judge. I think Paul Warfield was another really graceful WR. It’s kind of hard to define graceful in football but you know when you see it. I guess you would say extremely fluid in their movements. I think Jerry Rice would fall in that category and I was thinking about teammate John Taylor. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised but am that a contingent of 49er fans think Taylor should be in the HOF with only 2 PB and 347 catches in 102 games. Who knows, on a different team he may of gotten close to a HOF career with his talent. What a steal in the 3rd round from Delaware State!! Can’t be right but PFR says he made the PB with 14 catches. lol
RIP Don Shula.
Great life and Great Coach …
RIP … Don Shula
Don Shula, 33 years with only two losing seasons. I heard at 90 he was able to smell the roses. He was in his community and I’m not saying we should feel bad for him but I’m not sure the national media gave him his due as a one of the greatest HC’s. I believe the “Perfect Season” and the focus on SB losses sucked up a lot of oxygen for his fame. All-time winningest Coach seemed to like a footnote if they did mention with no mention of his coaching greatness. So many years of success through four decades of such change in America 60’s, 70’s 80’s and 90’s is simply amazing.
Shula had one losing season and four .500 seasons … Consistent till the end.
Another great thing about Shula with the Colts and Dolphins was his tendency to maintain winning streaks while flirting with unbeaten seasons …
In addition to the Perfect Season in 72/73 season for Miami, Shula also led the Colts to an unbeaten 11-0-2 start in 1967 before losing his final game of the season …
In 1984, he led the Marino led Dolphins to an 11-0 start before losing a great shootout to the San Diego Chargers, at the time the best start to a season since the the Perfect Season.
In 1985, after the Bears started out the season 12-0, the Shula led Dolphins ended the Bears chance at a perfect season on MNF.
Shula and the Colts also had a 12 game winning streak in 1964 before losing their final two games including the Championship
In 1968 the Colts lost the SB after winning 10 straight games …
The Dolphins also had a 10 game winning streak during Shula’s final championship season in 73/74.
My Mistake TonyP … Shula did have two losing seasons …
Tony P,
John Taylor was in the pro bowl in 1988 as a kick returner. He returned 2 punts for touchdowns during the 1988 season. John Taylor in 1988 lead the league in punt return yards, put return touchdowns, and yards per punt return.
Back in the 1980s Irving Fryar and Henry Ellard went to the pro bowl as kick returners also. What I’m getting at is big name Wide Receivers were used as kicker returners when they were first in the NFL.
Thanks for pointing out Taylor was a kick returner. I remember Miami WR Freddie Solomon doing kick returns than he went to the 49ers where he was really good WR for Joe Montana.
Greg Pruit was a really good RB who went to a PB as Kick Return late in his career.Miami’s Safety Jake Scott was a good one too. Not flashy but always getting positive yards.
Its still hard to believe that after Shula drafted Dan Marino in 1983 and had three excellent 10 plus winning seasons to start out their coach/player relationship, that in Shula’s next ten seasons, they had only THREE such seasons …
What happened ?
Was it losing Defensive Coordinator Bill Arnsparger after Marinos rookie season in 1983 ?
Yes, the Dolphins went to the SB in 1984 after a record setting passing year by Marino but their defence wasnt the same as in 83 under Arnsparger and played poorly in the SB.
Did Shula give to much control to Marino and throwing the ball over using more ball control and a better running game, to help the defence ?
The Dolphins also had poor drafts and werent getting better players through free agency or trades that could have helped their team.
Shula wasnt getting results from assistant coaches that he hired as well. Tom Olivadotti had problems with the defence and though Gary Stevens was capable on offence, the Dolphins still couldnt balance out Marinos passing with a good running game …
Had Shula mellowed out too much as he got older, which is understandable or did the younger players tune him out more ?
Probably a combination of both but I also truly believe that Shula, for whatever reason was never the same after leaving the Orange Bowl Stadium behind. He never seemed comfortable coaching the Dolphins at new Joe Robbie Stadium, with only three seasons there of ten plus winning seasons.
It also didnt help that Buffalo became the new powerhouse in the division. Shula needed more help from the likes of “general managers” like Mike Robbie and Eddie Jones but his personnel failures were his his responsibility as well.
Good points Brian. I’m not sure how mellow he was as Brian Cox talks about him from his time in the 90’s with the Dolphins. But know doubt he probably didn’t bring the level of intensity as often. I believe the Dolphins who were always about Team became too much Marino centric. As Bob Keuchenberg tells it Marino ran the show. He wanted to pass all the time. He made Marino sound selfesh I thought. Shula might of had too much of a soft spot for him and he was going to win just not at a higher level.
I agree with all of your points except the stadium. Players play and I don’t think his coaching ability was effected. He was still all about the details and preparation. Maybe the crowd had a different effect on the Team away from the more intimate Orange Bowl? I know I didn’t like watching the games as much there.
It just seemed to me even at the time that the Dolphins were different or better in the Orange Bowl. Shula had a lot of success there but couldnt get it going at Joe Robbie Stadium.
Though Joe Thomas brought in a lot of great players for the Dolphins including Paul Warfield, Shula wanted more credit for personnel but wasnt nearly the evaluator of talent like he was a head coach.
Being General Manager and running personnel were not his strong suits, especially after 1984 when the Dolphins started having terrible drafts but who knows if David Overstreet hadnt died or AJ Duhe, John Offerdahl, or Louis Oliver hadnt had career ending injuries ?
To me Shula’s greatest strengths were maintaining a high consistent level of winning seasons and maintaining winning streaks that flirted with unbeaten seasons in 67 with the Colts, 72 Dolphins and the Perfect Season and his 11-0 start for the SB bound 84 Dolphins …
I agree. I’ll say for Shula’s first 20 years, between the physical toughness he demanded and his extreme attention the detail, it gave his players full confidence they could compete with anyone even when they weren’t the most talented. That’s why NFL observers said, he could beat you, than turn around and win with the other Team’s players too. The highest compliment a Coach can get I believe. Most importantly, for his demands to work, he needed his players to have love and respect for him. They did and they “hated” to see him lose so that allowed them to win so many games.
IMO other great HC’s who also have or had that kind of support in spades from their players are: Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Bud Grant, George Allen, Joe Gibbs, Marty Schottenhiemer, Dick Vermeil (second stint), Marv Levy and Andy Reid.
https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sports/football/6477339-Vikings%E2%80%99-Bud-Grant-saddened-by-death-of-%E2%80%98great-competitor%E2%80%99-Don-Shula
I would add Chuck Knox to list. Respect of the players is the key to winning but Bill Belicheck has proven the love is not necessary.
Will Frank Gore be the Charlie Joiner of RB’s? He had one great season and a bunch of good ones. Now he”s signed for his 15 year in the NFL. He’s third on all-time rush list. IMO his HOF selection is great career vs very good player.
Offerdahl would of be in the HOF if not for injuries..
After reviewing the Dolphin’s draft history under Shula I pretty much agree Brian. The year after Marino in 1984 was a total whiff! After that I don’t think they did too bad at the very top but other than DE Jeff Cross and Brian Cox they got next to nothing from the rest of their drafts. The great Teams find the hidden gems. That lack of talented depth probably had a lot to do with always collapsing down the stretch. Good thing they had Marino and the Mark Brothers to prop them up for 8-10 wins a season.
I may of over-stated how much Shula’s players loved him while they were going through his early years. lol Most of these great coaches were really tough. You appreciate more later. :)
Like Lombardi, Halas, Coughlin, Johnson, he coached out of fear and emotion but his players responded, though John Unitas thought it was BS …
As great and consistent as Shula was, we have to remember he was extremely lucky as well.
Like Lombardi in GB, Shula inherited excellent talent from Ewbanks’s Baltimore and Joe Thomas’s Miami teams. He just got both teams in better shape, while getting them to cut down on the mental errors and turnovers.
Shula was determined to help Unitas and Griese with more of a running game but gave too much leeway to Marino.
Other than Cox, Webb, Sims, Oliver, McDuffie, Bowens, Coleman, Vincent and Cross, his later drafts never produced much …
Brian Cox got Shula later in his career but he said Parcells and Belichick who he also played for, coached through fear and Shula didn’t. I don’t believe Shula threatened people’s jobs like those two did and do. Shula said he wore his emotions on his sleeve but I believe he really tough but fair and of high moral standard like Tom Landry. Both were religious men. That’s why their players love them today so much. Father type figures you’d be lucky to have in your life. Maybe an aging Johnny Unitas didn’t appreciate being pushed. lol I don’t think Shula would select anyone for special treatment. Who knows, it could have something to do with so many Dolphins failing to reach 10 year careers?
Check this story out. I vividly remember watching the Vikings – Dolphins game they are talking about. It was as exciting as a 16-14 game could be. I do not remember the bad call. LOL
https://www.startribune.com/former-vikings-defensive-lineman-bob-lurtsema-says-he-owes-his-career-to-don-shula/570193832/
Maybe you can verify TonyP but I read that mostly early in his career, Griese liked to throw and take chances on first down and run the ball or be conservative on third down.
Do you believe his stats or conversions would have been better if he threw more on third down or was the defence that good enough to believe in ?
Maybe he just didnt want to risk turnovers, which I understand but as a QB, you still want to sustain drives.
Just did a comment on Darren Sproles on SI/TOF Network/Maven article about Eric Metcalf …
Does anyone besides myself, believe he should one day be voted into the PHOF ?
PFHOF … haha
I don’t know. What period of time are we talking? Looking at Griese’s stats he threw the ball a lot his first couple years in the AFL. Being on an explansion Team he had no running game and I suspect he was running for his life. Maybe that’s the problem if the HC let him do what he liked. lol They didn’t win many games. Usually winning football is you run the ball to open up the pass. I want to say Shula didn’t let him call his own plays until after they lost the SB to Dallas. Griese had a decent arm but was known for his accuracy and being one of the best at reading defenses. But like most QB’s back than there was a learning curve of 3-5 years not like today. I’m not sure the reason for so many Int’s since he was accurate. Maybe he needed glasses for years. lol His best year was when he got his glasses. Most likely he didn’t quite have the arm to make some of the throws he tried. Still he was a damn good QB. He had the intangibles needed for a winning QB. I’m sure being with Shula helped his career alot even though he didn’t get to pass as much. I’m glad the HOF voters saw him as a great QB.
Of course the talent of Dan Marino made people quickly forget Griese. I wonder how good Bob Griese would of been in his prime with some of Marino’s Teams? They were very different QB’s. I liked Griese because he was usually so cool under pressure. Marino was a gambler and he had the talent to pull it off.
I don”t support Metcalf although I asked the same question a while back because he ended up with some nice all purpose yard numbers. The guy could do it all and was dangerous weapon for many years. If I had my way I’d put a few Longhorns in the PFHOF. lol
Anyone remember the Texas greats like Tommy Nobis , Roosevelt Leaks, Doug English, Jerry Sisemore, Raymond Clayborn, Steve McMichael or Jerry Gray. Leaks was Earl Campbell before Earl Campbell. A great Texas RB who blew out his knee right out of the gate and turned himself into a darn good FB.
The article was about Eric Metcalf but I also commented about Darren Sproles, who I think should be in the HOF … Do you agree Tony or TonyP ?
I thought Griese was a great athlete and QB.
He had smooth, quick mobility and was hard to sack. He was also a great ball handler and could fake out a defence. John Madden thought he was also great at changing his cadence and getting a defensive line to jump offsides. Though his arm wasnt the best, he threw a beautiful ball and had a quick follow through …
Joe Namath was a big fan of Griese, even as a rookie and named him better than NFL MVP Earl Morrall.
I remember a game against the Atlanta Falcons in 1980, where Griese came off the bench and led a comeback that beat them in Atlanta. He looked great that game but got hurt and ended his career after that season.
His first half play against the Redskins in SB VII was nearly perfect, though his TD pass to Warfield was called back due to a penalty.
His timing with Warfield, especially on slant and post patterns was beautiful to watch, especially in that 1971 AFC Championship win over Baltimore, a great win for Shula and the Dolphins.
Thanks for bringing up some good memories. My favorite was his 6 TD’s passing versus the Cardinals in their 55-14 blowout of the Cardinals on Thanksgiving Day. Every phase of the game clicked that day.
Sproles was a one man wrecking crew at K-State and while some were surprised with his impact in the NFL I was not. He was a very strong 5’6″ He was an amazing Returner of the ball when he came into the League.
I don’t think he had enough impact in rushing or recieving to garner enough attention to be a HOFer. Like Metcalf he was a fun to watch and exceptional for where they used him. It’s too bad San Diego didn’t use him more in their pass game like New Orleans and Philly did but they had another pretty good player named LaDainian Tomlinson for that. He might of done some pretty great things. Plus he did get hurt for a season. He’s right there for me on the HOVG Team with Metcalf. Of course a little higher if we are talking just Returning the football but not ahead of Devin Hester who is the first selection if they ever put a player in the HOF purely for Special Teams.
i personally don’t believe Metcalf or Sproles were HOfamers. But I did enjoy the named of Leeks, Clayborn Gray and those former Texas players. Most of them had very successful Pro careers.
Remember Griese called his own plays for most of his career. He knew he had great backs and he used them. if he wanted to throw more, he would have called hi own number more often. It worked well for him. The dolphins won titles and he ended up in the HOF. Do’t forget, much of his succes was off of play action. He would not have been anywhere near as succesfull if he played like Jurgensen, Tark or Stabler
Remember the MNF game against Houston in the Astrodome in 1978 ? Griese and Campbell put on a show !!
Nat Moore played well for Griese and Marino
Darren Sproles was underutilized as a running back despite averaging nearly five yards a carry.
Coaches liked to use him as a pass receiver where he was a major weapon for the Chargers, Saints and Eagles. Rivers and Brees have both said they missed not having him on their teams.
Unlike Reggie Bush, who Sproles replaced with the Saints, Sproles would run inside …
He also had that memorable playoff game against the Colts with over 300 yards total offence that upset them.
Despite being mostly a receiving back and returner on special teams, Sproles had 71 TDs, which is a not shabby at all.
He has to wait, but I would put him in the HOF
No one yet who has been in the top 10 in all purpose yards, with a substantial number of yards from KR or PR has been considered for the Hall, not so sure that will change soon with Sproles or Mitchell. In terms of ST players, Hester or White Shoes Johnson are the ones to break that wall open for others.
Totally agree Paul and whether it should ever change is above my pay grade. lol I personally would be inclined to represent all facets of the game in the HOF in the numbers they deserve.
I get the argument that these players didn’t spend enough time on the field and couldn’t have the impact the starter’s do. I do believe Kickers have enough impact on winning and losing. But is it fair if you put in, a Steve Tasker type and overlook earlier players of similar skill? He’s one I would take a pass on but otherwise I don’t think putting other types of ST players takes anything away from starters. More the better but as I said before they would need their own category so it didn’t take away from many deserving starters. I don’t know why what seems like common sense change comes so slow. There must be strong push back coming from somewhere. Football fans know the difference between a great QB and a Punter in value. Maybe this isn’t above my pay grade. LOL
Would Fran Tarkington be drafted today? I remember the talk in the 1970’s was how weak his arm was. Many in the media didn’t think he could throw the ball 50 yards. I assume his arm was a little stronger in the 60’s?
The thing is, special teams have value and decide games, especially in turnovers …
We have discussed Don Shula and the Dolphins, and two games that could have put them in the SB were losses in the 85/86 and 92/93 AFC Championships because of turnovers on special teams. They make a mark more than people realize.
I like Hester and Johnson too Paul, but couldnt put either in based on JUST special teams play. Hester didnt do enough as a starter and Johnson was mostly a punt returner, not a kickoff returner.
I remember watching Brian Mitchell with the Eagles and Redskins wondering why he didnt start more ?
Especially with the Eagles, because they lacked playmakers and he looked good everytime he ran or caught the ball.
Players should not be penalized because of coaching decisions.
If Bill Walsh wants to throw to Roger Craig more than run him, his versatility should not keep him out of the HOF, especially when backs like Earl Campbell, Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Adrian Peterson and others werent much as pass catchers. Thats why the greatest backs to me could run, catch and block, where Craig was excellent as well.
Henry Ellard and Steve Smith had to wait to get on the field, excelled on special teams then excelled as pass receivers, usually with bad QBs … Ellard deserves his shot as well.
Same with Steve Tasker …
Jim Kelly wanted him to catch passes and thought he had great hands but Levy just wanted him for special teams, where he of course excelled. By the time Levy finally let him catch the ball, Kelly was done. Who knows what kind of receiver Tasker could have been ?
When coaches are leaving their best players on the sidelines, you have got problems.
Of course Tarkenton would be drafted today, even with a weaker arm because of his mobility and intelligence.
With the horizontal passing game of today, Tarkenton would eat teams alive, especially with all the receivers on the field.
Everytime I watch Russell Wilson run around, he reminds me of Tarkenton because he buys enough time to find the open receiver because both QBs were short. Tarkenton had great football smarts too and called his own plays. He would have no problem doing audibles today …
Yes his arm wasnt the best, but I remember him throwing the ball more downfield than todays QBs … How many times today, do QBs chuck the ball way downfield ?
“I like Hester and Johnson too Paul, but couldnt put either in based on JUST special teams play. Hester didnt do enough as a starter and Johnson was mostly a punt returner, not a kickoff returner.”
One could say the same about Mitchell (best rush season of 300ys, best rec season 44rec, best TD season 3) and Sproles (one season with 80+ receptions, best rush season was 600 yds, no 10 rec/rush TD seasons)
The point is if ST are valued that is how any of these four are getting in and in order to break that wall I would go with Hester (record career return TDs 20) or Johnson (member of two all decade teams, plus 75th and 100th NFL anniversary teams.
Other punter and kickers will and should be considered, but in terms of ST players, I think Hester or Johnson have better chance of getting in than Tasker-but one of them in would help him and others.
Yes, Hester had the 20 TDs with …
14 TDs … punt returns (1st)
5 TDs … kick returns
1 TD … playoff return
Mitchell had 14 TDs …
9 TDs … punt returns (3rd)
4 TDs … kick returns
1 TD … playoff return
Eric Metcalf had 13 TDs …
10 TDs … punt returns (2nd)
2 TDs … kick returns
1 TD … playoff return
Dante Hall had 13 TDs
6 TDs … punt returns
6 TDs … kick returns
1 TD … playoff return
Josh Cribbs had 11 TDs
3 TDs … punt returns
8 TDs … kick returns (1st)
All these guys had 11 or more Special Teams TDs …
Total Offensive/Defensive TDs counting postseason …
Hester … 17
Mitchell … 17
Metcalf … 44
Hall … 10
Cribbs … 9
Based on Special Teams numbers AND Scrimmage numbers for Total TDs, Metcalf has the best argument of this particular group, but Mitchell, Metcalf, Hall and Cribbs also have good arguments along with Hester, based on just special teams TD numbers …
How often do they throw deep today? Not enough for my liking. I used to like the run – pass contrast but now they use the pass as a run. I’m the get off my lawn guy who thinks Bill Walsh ruined the game. lol I couldn’t stand what followed with the no huddle, run and shoot, and K-Gun. It seemed so unfair trying to stop Andre Reed on that 5 yard catch over the middle. I like when the majority of teams went mono e mono running the football. With the occasional screen pass, reverse or flea flicker. If a Team was good at throwing the ball great.
I’m trying to think who were the first Running Backs to make a living catching the ball out of the backfield. I remember Jim Kiick doing it well for 3rd down conversions. But the one I really remember doing it were Minnesota’s Chuck Foreman and especially Rickey Young. Lydell Mitchell was good and than Joe Washington. Pass catching RB’s really evolved in the 1970’s so I guess the West Coast Offense was only natural. Still. I don’t like so much passing. :)
I always have to mention Rick Upchurch as a return guy. :)
IMO, if they get in it should be based only on Special Teams play only so that would likely move Billy White Shoes Johnson back in the line. Curious that Cribbs had more Kickoff TD’s than Punt Returns since they are more difficult. Some Teams go decades without just one.
All were great but the one I enjoyed watching the most was the “the human joystick” Dante Hall.
Yes, Miami Dolphins have brought their fans some epic losses. I almost remember them more than the wins. I only have to hear Raiders, Chargers, Oilers and I cringe. lol The game I remember least fondly (many lol) and I didn’t even see it on TV but remember updates was the next to last game of the season at the highly favored Bert Jones’ Colts. Bob Griese couldn’t play. It was amazingly 7-7 in 4th qtr and Miami scored a TD pass from Strock to Nat Moore in the back of the end zone but was called out of bounds. He was definitely in bounds on the replay. The FG must of been blocked or it was a 4th down play. I just remember I was crushed by the 10-7 OT loss that ended Miami’s 5 year playoff run. Miami shouldn’t of had a chance to win the game and they did only making it more disappointing. Back in those days the players and coaches didn’t talk about bad calls the refs made like today. They finished tied at 10-4 with the Colts and lost the tie-breaker. The next year was Shula’s first losing season at 6-8 as the injuries continued to mount. So many injuries it was crazy.
I believe that bad call along with many others were used as evidence for the need of instant replay which didn’t start in the NFL until 1986. It sure took a long time!
I don’t think Metcalf’s receiving and rushing TDs is going to help his case as still viewed largely as as a ST player and as such would be considered in context of ST players or full time offensive players and either way he falls short. I really think it will take voters the leap to first elect the best KR/PR of all time, Hester or Johnson, and that would then help others get consideration. I don’t think Metcalf, Mitchell or Sproles are that guy. Like Guy with punters BUT like Guy, getting first one elected many eventually help others BUT the hill for ST to climb to be elected will still be very high. Let’s remember it took decades and the seniors committee to elect Guy, that’s one reason why I think Johnson might have the easiest path one day. Five voters on the senior committees have the opportunity to advance an innovative choice more so then the regular committee – when has their choices ever been innovative?
Remember that amazing 10 yard TD run Metcalf had when he was a rookie playing for the Browns? I bet that’s on film somewhere. He was still thought of as a RB .
Just watched his film. He was faster than I remember. He broke ankles. He had a couple Gayle Sayers runs. I can see why he has some strong support.
I think you’re right Paul, about Johnson having the best chance but is his selection based on ST or totality? He was a just so-so WR but has some numbers with 337 catches. I’m not sure he should get in based on ST play. It feels like, if they put him in, it will be because he captured the imagination of so many fans and became an icon. Sort of like Ickey Woods but bigger degree. Everyone wanted to do Johnson’s funky chicken. I still do! hahaha
In case you missed his lesson to Peyton Manning. https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/27459922
Johnson’s case is built upon the two all decade selections plus member of 75th and 100th anniversary teams, not sure how voters elect another KR/PR without first recognizing someone with those honors, like Ray Guy he strikes me as someone that the seniors committee would nominate to break through the glass wall of ST players
Thanks Paul, I did not know about those honors.
Paul’s argument about Johnson makes sense with his honors but Rick Upchurch was his peer amongst great punt returners at that time and still has the highest punt return average with fewer games. Both had similar receiving numbers as well and both didnt have as large a number on kickoff return yardage.
With his all purpose yardage, I would still go with Mitchell over Hester, Upchurch and Johnson though …
I agree with Paul’s assessment of Billy WHite shoes Johnson. The same applies for Devin Hester. If (big if) they get in, maybe guys like Brian Mitchell, Steve Takser and Mathew Slater have a chance.
Getting too quiet on here … haha
Rick Gosselin, a friend of Rasputin’s, wrote an excellent piece on the ineptness of the KC Chiefs during the late 70s and 80s with fans “social distancing” themselves from Arrowhead Stadium in droves …
I, along with probably everyone else, blames it on Jack Steadman, the KC Chiefs beancounter who thought he was a General Manager but knew nothing about football.
After he fired Hank Stram after his first losing season in eleven years in 1974, which I really believe Owner Lamar Hunt didnt want to do and regretted, Steadman took over the football operations of the team and the team was terrible until finally hiring a true football man in Carl Peterson in 1988, who hired Marty Schottenheimer to coach the team in 1989 …
Finally, the winning started again and the fans came back and filled the stadium which became even more exciting when the team switched the stadium to a grass field.
During the great 90s however, the teams fans may have suffered some Karma for not coming to games from the 80s years because the Chiefs had agonizing playoff losses …
During the 90/91 postseason, after finally reaching the playoffs for the first time since the 86/87 postseason, the Chiefs blew a 16-3 lead over the Dolphins, and missed a 52 yd FG at the end that would have won the game.
Did Marty and the Chiefs stay too conservative ?
Its hard to tell considering tough Steve Deberg played the game with a broken finger on his passing hand. Despite All Pro players in the secondary, Marino for Miami led a comeback.
Deberg led the Chiefs to their first playoff win in Arrowhead during the 91/92 postseason against the Raiders but they got blown out in the divisional playoff against Buffalo.
In the 92/93 Wild Card game, the Chiefs were shutout 0-17 to the Chargers, led by QB Dave Krieg … Marty was now 1-3 in playoff games with the Chiefs and needed another QB …
In 1993 the Chiefs had its best QB in Joe Montana since Len Dawson but despite winning a dramatic wild card game at home against Pittsburgh and then upsetting the Oilers in Warren Moons final game in Houston, the Chiefs defence played horrible and lost their only AFC Championship appearance under Shottenheimer, in Buffalo.
A game where Marty was criticized for keeping LB Derrick Thomas on the sideline too much.
Albert Lewis leaves the Chiefs in 1994 and the defence struggles during the year barely making the playoffs, where Montana loses a shootout against Marino and the Dolphins, his final career game. The frustrations for Marty continues as he once again, signs another former SF QB to lead the team in 1995.
In 95, Schottenheimer does his greatest coaching job, leading the Chiefs to a 13-3 record with the defence having a great season and home field advantage but the Chiefs lose a heartbreaking game in Arrowhead to the Colts 10-7 … A game where Marty doesnt run Marcus Allen enough, while Bono throws 3 interceptions. The Chiefs kicker also misses 3 FG attempts …
The press really starts getting on to Schottenheimer, who in 1997 brings his third former 49er QB to KC in Elvis Grbac, despite having a promising backup in Rich Gannon, who should have led the Vikings before they signed Warren Moon in 1994.
The Chiefs add WR Andre Rison to the team in 97 and despite another great season and homefield advantage, lose another gut wrenching game in Arrowhead to hated John Elway and the Broncos 14 -10 … Should Gannon have started over Grbac ?
Instead of sticking with QB Rich Gannon for the 1999 season, Marty resigns after a losing season in 1998, while Gannon goes to the Raiders.
What if Schottenheimer had stayed and finally let Rich Gannon lead the team, would the winning have continued for Arrowhead fans for the 2000s ?
I still believe Schottenheimer should be in the HOF.
Well its pretty quite here since its clear Vick is not a PFHOFer……we sort of settled that….LOL
Did some research and decided to put on here offensive players who have HOF cases.
Counting Postseason numbers, which should help players in their arguments, these are the top TD scorers in NFL History with over 90 Total TDs …
Personally, I believe any player who has over 90 TDs, has a HOF case … or should go in, eventually …
Larry Fitzgerald … 130 TDs … HOF/yes
Adrian Peterson … 122 … HOF/yes
Shaun Alexander … 120 … HOF/yes, though debatable
Antonio Gates … 118 … HOF/yes
Frank Gore … 103 … Still counting … HOF/yes
Marshawn Lynch … 106 … HOF/yes, though debatable
Ricky Watters … 103 … HOF/yes
Steve Smith … 100 … HOF/yes
Priest Holmes … 96 … HOF/yes, though debatable
Hines Ward … 96 … HOF/yes, though debatable
Corey Dillon … 93 … HOF/yes, though debatable
Rob Gronkowski … 92 … HOF/yes
Anquan Boldin … 91 … HOF/yes, though debatable
Reggie Wayne … 91 … HOF/yes, though debatable
Irving Fryar … 90 … HOF/yes, though debatable … quiet career
LeSean McCoy … 90 … HOF/Not sure … quiet career
They all have cases …
These players had over 80 TDs and have cases in my opinion …
OJ Anderson … 89 … HOF/yes
Calvin Johnson … 86 … HOF/yes
Herschel Walker … 84 …HOF/yes
James Brooks … 83 … HOF/yes
Eddie George … 83 … HOF/yes
Roger Craig … 82 … HOF/yes
Art Powell … 82 … HOF/yes
Harold Jackson … 81 … HOF/yes
These are debatable and not all of them can get in along with these players who are questionable as well …
Mark Clayton … 88 … HOF/???
Andre Rison … 87 … HOF/???
Chuck Foreman … 83 … HOF/Injuries ?
Terry Allen … 81 … HOF/probably not, though injuries
Fred Taylor … 80 … HOF/???
Great Careers and Cases but all Debatable
The players listed above are the top scorers, who have not made the HOF … needed to word that better but they all have cases, though many will never be voted in …
Nice comprehensive list Brian. A defensive one would be interesting. Ken Riley just passed and will probably never make the HOF, however not only did he have great numbers but he was one of the better tackling Cb’s i ever saw. lack of Pro bowls hurt his case. If he would have played for the Raiders or Steelers instead of the Bengals, he would have been a slam dunk!
Ken Riley certainly had a case and I know over the years, especially as a senior candidate, I have heard his name come up among comments by the voters that he has been discussed. I suspect the lack of all pro selections, no pro bowls, and no team success including playoffs and SBs has hurt his case.
Since there are several deserving Raiders, plus players from other more high profile teams from his era, still not in I really don’t think if he played for those teams he would be slam dunk as if that was the case, then Branch, Lester Hayes, Chuck Howley, Drew Pearson, LC Greenwood (all of whom have better cases) would all be in by now. Not saying playing for the Bengals has not hurt his case, as it has, but its also not that simple.
Riley is the classic case of teammates, canceling each other out …
Riley/Parrish, Scott/Anderson, Dilweg/Lewellen and other examples but at least the Centennial class broke through electing Karras over teammate Roger Brown, so it can happen.
The Question is, who will go in first, Riley with 68 total interceptions and 5 TDs or Parrish with 47 total interceptions and 13 TDs ?
Riley is also a classic case of a long career (15 years) with only perhaps 3 peak seasons (6+ INTs), including his only first team All pro selection in his last year (had 8 INTs). Playing on team with little playoff success ( 7 games, including the one SB season in 1981) also hurt. But I find it funny that Bengals fans want to blame voters for not electing him because of team and that if he only played for the Raiders, Steelers, Cowboys, Chiefs, Vikings etc….he would be in….really….with one first team all pro selection?? Maybe better team and success would have gotten him more all pro selections (plus pro bowls as he has none-really weird) but his season numbers for 12 years really average at best. But the bottom line for me is his recognition and numbers are what they are, and I can appreciate that while voters have considered his case can any of us really say in last few decades of eligibility and against current senior pool, especially those centennial senior candidates not elected, he is more deserving than all of them?? And if Bengals fans really want to take their anger and frustration out, how about starting with the Bengals organization who has not honored him with team recognition in their own HOF- same as Parrish, Anderson, Curtis
Curtis was a great deep threat for the Bengals, but doesnt have a HOF case because after his first five years, he didnt hardly do much and kept getting injured.
Had he caught over 70-75 TD catches, his case would be better but he finished in the fifties, and didnt catch many TD passes his last five years on the team.