As expected, QB Peyton Manning and DB Charles Woodson were selected for induction in the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s 2021 class. Perhaps a bit more surprisingly, WR Calvin Johnson joined them, giving the class a trio of first-ballot inductees.
Joining the three first-timers are G Alan Faneca and S John Lynch from the modern era; Tom Flores from the coach category, scout Bill Nunn from the contributor category and WR Drew Pearson from the senior category.
The group was selected by the Hall’s 48-person selection committee during a virtual meeting Jan. 19.
It is, in my opinion, a strong class.
The inductions of Manning, who retired with two Super Bowl wins and another two appearances, as well as a litany of records including the all-time passing yardage mark (since broken), and Woodson, who picked off 65 passes, won one of the two Super Bowls he appeared in and dominated from the time he entered the league, were expected.
Megatron was no less dominant during his time (he had more AP First Team honors in nine years than recent inductees Cris
Photo by Kevin810, via Wikipedia
Carter, Andre Reed and Tim Brown had in their combined 24 seasons) in the league, but after getting beat up during nine difficult seasons in Detroit, he hung his cleats up early, leaving his status as a potential first-ballot enshrinee in question. I’m glad to see him in.
Lynch and Faneca are a couple more guys I have been hopeful would see their busts in Canton, OH soon.
Flores struggled in his final three seasons as a head coach in Seattle, but he cemented his place in history with the Raiders, winning two Super Bowls there. I don’t know a lot about Nunn, other than he was a super scout during the time the Steelers grew into dominance in the 1970s. If he was involved in drafting and acquiring guys like John Stallworth, Mel Blount, Donnie Shell and Jack Lambert, it’s hard to claim he doesn’t belong.
And while I am a Vikings fan (though I was a few weeks from being born when the controversial Hail Mary took place) and, thus, have misgivings about some of Drew Pearson’s accomplishments, and while there are other senior candidates I would have probably supported more, Pearson was a significant contributor to the Cowboys’ success of the 1970s and early 1980s.
What are your thoughts? Who should have gotten in instead, who should have been left out?
What do you think of the PFHOF class of 2021
- Great class. All belong. (55%, 12 Votes)
- Not bad. Most should be in. A couple not so much. (41%, 9 Votes)
- Meh. There were a lot of guys I liked better. (5%, 1 Votes)
- Woof. Who picked this group? (0%, 0 Votes)
Total Voters: 22
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Though a tough safety, I felt others were more deserving than Lynch, though as a multiple finalist, he has paid his dues. It helps the SB is in Tampa Bay, though some could view as a publicity stunt.
Johnson is another example of talent over longevity. He should have waited.
As an 8-time finalist Lynch has certainly paid his dues. The SB in Tampa certainly helped his case too. While I always thought he was slightly overrated and Butler was a better player, I really don’t mind which order they went in. Inducting one clears the path for the other next year.
Boselli was in a similar situation in an OL backlog with Hutchinson and Faneca. Joe Thomas is eligible in 2023 so Boselli has the OL room to himself next year.
Its a good class and I can’t complain about the selections. Disappointed most for Boselli but like fellow final ten candidates not elected (Butler Thomas and Seymour) he is well positioned for 2022 which is not loaded with first ballot candidates- only DeMarcus Ware
My early prediction for 2022 moderns: Ware Boselli Thomas Seymour Butler. Yep just the one 1st ballot candidate and the four returning 2021 final 10, perhaps easy non-controversial and obvious picks but makes the most sense as I simply don’t see any other 1st ballot or 10-15 2021 finalists jumping to election next year
And we should give credit where credit is due to Baker and Hall for keeping results secret plus pulling off surprise announcements especially with COVID challenges
And credit to Hall and Baker for keeping results secret and pulling off the surprise reveals shown on NFL honors show last night
Yeah, Butler will probably get elected in 2022 since he made Top 10 again. If he gets elected, he will be the 12th safety in the last six years after what, seven in the first 54 years !
Allen may have to wait as Seymour on the interior and Ware as a pass rushing LB/DE hybrid get voted in along with Boselli and Thomas.
Wow, possibly three linebackers if you count Gradishar …
The Next Coach will be interesting since Flores election may help other two time champions like Parker, Shanahan, Seifert and Coughlin. Coryell and Shaughnessy were innovators but they could go with another modern like Reeves, Holmgren or Vermeil.
Hopefully Knox and Schottenheimer get good looks as well …
I hope Marty can attend Cowhers induction ceremony …
I think coach will come down to Coryell or Parker
Unbelievable SB … great defense by the Bucs, if this game doesnt give more pro bowl attention to LBs White and David, nothing will going forward. Great game for Barrett as well.
TB running the ball set the tone, Gronk with another big SB as well.
Devin White is young enough that this Super Bowl win will put his name in the national spotlight for future individual honours. He could easily have been MVP tonight as the leader of that great defensive performance. David has been a very good player for nearly a decade now. Can’t state enough how badly the Chiefs missed their starting OTs.
Brady just punched his ticket tonight to Canton (joking). Brady has had a HOF career from the age of 37 which is remarkable.
I just don’t get how Drew Pearson got selected over others at the same position of before him and not in. I just don’t see it. I know others have justified him. As a Senior candidate, so many better options were in the pool, both at his position and all positions.
only other senior wr i could think of corey would be Gary Collins Del Shofner Billy Howton Cliff Branch Stanley Morgan Harold Jackson Otis Taylor
Heres how they stack up
Receptions
Harold Jackson 579
Stanley Morgan 557
Billy Howton 503
Cliff Branch 501
Otis Taylor 410
Del Shofner 349
Gary Collins 331
Receiving Yards
Stanley Morgan 10716
Harold Jackson 10372
Cliff Branch 8685
Billy Howton 8459
Otis Taylor 7306
Del Shofner 6470
Gary Collins 5299
Receiving TD’s
Harold Jackson 76
Stanley Morgan 72
Gary Collins 70
Cliff Branch 67
Billy Howton 61
Otis Taylor 57
Del Shofner 51
who would you take from this group of coaches
Wins
Marty Schottenheimer 200
Dan Reeves 190
Chuck Knox 186
Tom Coughlin 170
Mike Shanahan 170
Mike Holmgren 161
Dick Vermeil 120
George Seifert 114
Don Coryell 111
Buddy Parker 104
Its time for Buddy Parker, Robert -Still- The Greatest
Megatron got into the HOF without his Detroit team winning one playoff game.
Parker won two out three straight championships, owning Paul Brown for awhile and had his team win another championship after he left them. Its time he makes the HOF …
Corey, I understand how you feel but like Paul likes to remind me, All-Decade selections, especially first-team choices, get leeway with voters and Pearson was the last offensive player to wait before making the HOF.
The only receivers I could see getting in over Pearson would be Benton, Howton, Shofner, Powell, Jackson or Branch but they didnt.
I think Branch will be the next senior receiver getting in but Jackson or even Sharpe will offer competition.
Oh i completly agree on buddy parker brian 100% ill redo the list brian and add powell and benton
updated the rankings brian
Receptions
Harold Jackson 579
Stanley Morgan 557
Billy Howton 503
Cliff Branch 501
Art Powell 479
Otis Taylor 410
Del Shofner 349
Gary Collins 331
Jim Benton 288
Receiving Yards
Stanley Morgan 10716
Harold Jackson 10372
Cliff Branch 8685
Billy Howton 8459
Art Powell 8046
Otis Taylor 7306
Del Shofner 6470
Gary Collins 5299
Jim Benton 4801
Receiving TD’s
Art Powell 81
Harold Jackson 76
Stanley Morgan 72
Gary Collins 70
Cliff Branch 67
Billy Howton 61
Del Shofner 51
Jim Benton 45
Yes it’s pretty clear why Pearson was elected (and is deserving) if you are selected as best player at your position in a decade you deserve to be in the Hall. It’s just not about career numbers but historical impact including playoffs. If was just numbers why vote at all as we could simply put the players with best stats in the Hall
‘’Receptions
Harold Jackson 579
Stanley Morgan 557
Billy Howton 503
Cliff Branch 501
Otis Taylor 410
Del Shofner 349
Gary Collins 331
Receiving Yards
Stanley Morgan 10716
Harold Jackson 10372
Cliff Branch 8685
Billy Howton 8459
Otis Taylor 7306
Del Shofner 6470
Gary Collins 5299
Receiving TD’s
Harold Jackson 76
Stanley Morgan 72
Gary Collins 70
Cliff Branch 67
Billy Howton 61
Otis Taylor 57
Del Shofner 51’
Based on these numbers, four receivers had more career receptions than Pearson did. Four of them, again, Howton, Jackson, Morgan and Branch, all had more receiving yards than Pearson did.
Every single receiver listed had more touchdowns receptions than Pearson did, too.
I’ll break this down once again.
Pro Bowls
Jackson: 5
Shofner: 5
Howton:4
Branch: 4
Powell: 4 (AFL All Star)
Morgan: 4
Taylor: 3
Pearson: 3
All-Pro
Shofner: 5
Branch: 3
Pearson: 3
Howton: 2
Taylor: 2
Powell: 2
Jackson: 1
‘ Corey, I understand how you feel but like Paul likes to remind me, All-Decade selections, especially first-team choices, get leeway with voters and Pearson was the last offensive player to wait before making the HOF.’
I just don’t get the All-Decade obsession, either. Are we sure All-Decade was even accurate? Like I’ve said on here before, if you like a whole decade in receptions, receiving yards and touchdowns, something Jackson did, that in and of itself is All-Decade worthy. I honestly don’t get it how neither Jackson nor Branch were All-Decade. I don’t.
Objectively, though, as big of a critic as I’ve been of Pearson’s selection, I would say he’s more deserving of Canton then his fellow 1970s All-Decade receivers Lynn Swann and Harold Carmichael. Perhaps some people are in Canton who shouldn’t be, and others aren’t in Canton who should be.
There’s nothing we can do about it now, but if I could be in a room with those who selected Pearson and voted him in, I would mention all the aforementioned information in this post, and I would say, ‘Are you absolutely sure you made the right decision?’
For me to have supported Pearson’s election this year means a bunch of others I mentioned would’ve already been enshrined. They haven’t.
Also, those profiles/stats are just at wide receiver. Compare Pearson’s Pro Bowl/All-Pro numbers to others in the Senior Pool. Howley had twice as many Pro Bowl and more All-Pro selections. Gradishar had more Pro Bowl selections and was DPOY. Baughan has three times as many Pro Bowl selections. If you want an All-Decade oversight, Baughan is a textbook example.
In the secondary, Jimmy Patton has both more Pro Bowls and All-Pro selections than Pearson did. Meador had twice as many Pro Bowls and was also All-Decade.
We can do offensive linemen, too. Ken Gray madd twice as many Pro Bowls, Jim Ray Smith more Pro Bowls, just as many All-Pros, Duane Putnam, like Smith, also a five-time Pro Bowler and three-time First-Team All-Pro. Niland has twice as many Pro Bowls, Budde a combined seven AFL All-Star/Pro Bowl selections.
Therefore, I want to know how somebody can comprehend all of that information and possibly tell me that out of every single person eligible in the Senior pool that Drew a Pearson was the absolute best choice for selection. He wasn’t.
Speaking of Stanley Morgan, how do you justify Carmichael’s inclusion, but Morgan’s exclusion? Both of them made four Pro Bowls, no All-Pro teams and both of their career numbers are very similar.
‘Megatron got into the HOF without his Detroit team winning one playoff game‘
Joe Thomas didn’t even play in a playoff game, yet he was a 10-time Pro Bowler, six-time First-Team All-Pro and First-Team All-Decade.
Paul, stats matter to me, they always have. Stuff like that is important for how I evaluate someone both for Canton and for Cooperstown. Stats need to say something.
Pearson’s career stats and profiles are worse than some of his own contemporaries, much less more in the Senior pool at receiver. If you compare his profiles to people at other positions, then he looks even less impressive of a choice.
All-Decade, to me, has been very flawed before. You cannot tell me Maxie Baughan, who went to nine Pro Bowls in the 1960s, deserved to be excluded from All-Decade. Or Harold Jackson, who led the whole NFL in receptions, yards and touchdowns in the 1970s, there most certainly weren’t four receivers more deserving of All-Decade than that.
Then you have other All-Decade selections like Shofner and Meador who still haven’t gotten the bronze bust treatment. Shofner sadly won’t be alive to see it. I hope Meador will.
There is no way, no how, that of the Senior candidates at wide receiver, much less the entire Senior pool, that Drew Pearson was the single best candidate most worthy of enshrinement.
Corey, thats why I did huge write-ups on this site, and talkoffamenetwork about the need to recategorize and include Mid-Decade teams. The All-Decade teams are flawed with over 40 players playing 4 years or less in various decade designations, which show how careers are spread out and overlapping for reorganization.
Like Paul said, the HOF isnt going to follow a direction for recreating these teams like Pro Football Journal tried to do because though you cant obviously omit or delete selections, they arent willing to add worthy selections like a Chuck Howley as well, for redesignation.
corey the baffling thing is when i looked at the 50s all decade team bobby walston who had no where near the stats that howton did made it and Billy didnt
Bobby Walston made half as many Pro Bowls as Howton did, and none of them were in the 1950s.
We can’t change the fact that All-Decade teams are what they are, but if all of us, including the voters, studied All-Decade selections more closely, we’d realize though while it’s a helpful accomplishment, maybe not everybody who made All-Decade deserved it.
A excellent opportunity was presented for the Class of 2020. I was pretty underwhelmed by their selections. Carmichael, Covert and Sprinkle were all three very underwhelming choices. The most deserving Seniors still wait. Some of the 10 seniors did deserve it. Others? No way.
I want to tell the voters how many of these people that are still with us are in their eighties and nineties, how some have still passed on. I so badly want to see these older players live to see enshrinement. That’s the main reason I’m probably more passionate about the Seniors than I am the Modern Era.
You and Me both about the seniors corey it seems to me that the centennial dropped the ball on some of them ie Sprinkle i would have rather have seen guys like howton shofner etc im glad were having productive conversations corey
I also forgot to mention six-time Pro Bowler, four-time First-Team All-Pro Dick Schafrath.
There’s also Walt Sweeney, who combined to make nine AFL All-Star/Pro Bowl appearances, was twice a First-Team All-Pro, according to ProFootballReference.com and made the AFL’s All-Time Team.
Out of every single one of these players, a handful of people decided to push Drew Pearson of all people forward.
completley forgot about schafrath and sweeney two more deserving nominees
It really is incredible how much range the Senior Committee has had in the past 10 years or so. They made top notch choices in Hanburger, Richter, Tingelhoff, Kramer, Brazile, Dillon and Johnny Robinson.
They made some really good choices in Butler, Stanfel, Easley, Harris, Hill and Shell.
Then they made some very disappointing choices in Dave Robinson, Stabler, Carmichael, Covert and Sprinkle.
All of those people have been elected since 2011. That’s a pretty wide net to cast, pretty all over the place.
id replace robinson with howley stabler with ken anderson covert with either schafrath or sweeney sprinkle with either howton or cliff branch how about you corey
All of those sound like worthy choices, Robert. I actually think one of the better quarterbacks outside of Canton who doesn’t get talked about enough is Daryle LaMonica.
agreed lamonicas credentials are superb when you look at them closer
LaMomica made the equivalent of five Pro Bowls, two First-Team All-Pro selections, was a two-time AFL MVP, twice led the AFL in touchdowns, once in passing yards.
Somehow, he wasn’t named to the AFL’s all-time team.
By keeping many of these Seniors out, you’re not only denying them an honor they deserve, they’re quite frankly getting lost to history. The Hall of Fame is also an excellent outlet to teach fans who have never heard of these players all about them.
im 100% in agreement with you about the hof being an exellent teaching outlet
I never said stats were not important, just that they are not nor should be the only factor. Again if we simply go by stats why even vote? Just pick a set number of PFHOFer at each position for an era/decade and based on the top with stats they are PFHOFers. But we also need to judge their impact and historical role. All Decade and All pro (or MVPs, OPOY, DPOY etc…) are never perfect but we also simply can’t ignore that large group of experts determined who those players are, and if we are questioning what the seniors committee or full committee are doing we also need to be aware that they greatly value these designations and awards. Pearson we selected 3x first time all pro in 70s, first team all decade, centennial class finalist and senior finalist-seems that multiple times by given groups of “judges” or voters he has been recognized as an important figure in NFL history. Lists of the top 100 plays or catches in NFL history frequently have 3 made by Pearson, anyone with a full appreciation of the history of the NFL.
We all know that voting is flawed, that the centennial class was flawed, that All decade teams are flaws, but they are want we have and how we and voters are going to look at candidates. If we think Pearson was not deserving of those honors or election, what does that say about Robinson, Kramer, Hanburger, Tingelhoff, Brazile-are we accepting that the same honors they received was justified but for some reason Pearson’s are not? You don’t like the selection of Pearson, it is just as easy to make the same arguments for Hanburger over Howley for example or Kramer over Wistert. Its all subjective and based on opinions, there are no clear stats, film or analytics for most of these pre 1990s players. There are reasons all these guys are in the senior pool-for 20 yrs as a modern candidate, the voters for whatever reason decided they were not better than the other 5-7 moderns to be elected each year. Let’s not act as if there is a huge difference between Peason and say Howton or Jackson-if there was why were they not elected as moderns, what have the voters not screamed that they are all time greats?
And frankly such debate today is rather distressing. We should be honoring those elected not debating their worthiness, as he is in and although we can debate the order, he is clearly deserving. We have know since late 2019 (centennial class finalists) and again last August that Pearson was being considered by the voters for election-over all the aforementioned senior WRs, but we choose today to argue that he should not have been elected? Seems like a debate months or even years to late. Pearson was among the best clutch WR in the history of the NFL, his historical impact as a player is well known, you can’t write the history of the NFL in the 1970s and ignore his catches against the Rams, Redskins, Vikings (and if you don’t know what those three are, you can’t evaluate Pearson’s career, so go watch them).
I clearly don’t have a problem with Pearson, while acknowledging many others are also deserving including other WRs,. and frankly I really don’t think the case against him is even close as it could be debated for many other recent senior finalists (and I am not just referring to the centennial class). And yes I think a much stronger case and debate could be made of Kramer over Wistert (and I could mention others). But interestingly Kramer getting elected was made as such a wonderful occasion (and yes I think he was deserving) BUT the point is that his case is not without same level of debate you are having right here about Pearson-yet that never happened.
We all know that any of us could put up a list of 20-25 (maybe more) seniors and make a strong case for any of them, that the differences between their cases are similar, they all have strengths and flaws, and the any such assessment or ranking is subjective and largely based on subjective measures (especially non QBs, WRs, RBs) and also made harder by different decades/eras, playing schemes and systems, coaches and are we including playoffs and championship games? Such a debate is healthy and can be very informative and educational, but lets be clear any such debate over senior candidates is ultimately unresolved as it is an impossible task for any of us (or 48 voters) to look at 20-25 names and with no doubt rank them accurately and fairly.
Drew Pearson is a PFHOFer and a deserving one, his election also clears the deck for the next one, and the one after that. His selection is not weak nor is it unjustified and his bust and name in Canton will be a welcome addition, nor one of uncertainty or shame, today lets honor that.
paul would you agree that pearsons chances improved since he wasnt up against 10-20 other players
I would agree that every senior candidate before centennial class and everyone after will see their chances “improved”. BUT he was up against 100+ seniors on a list presented to the senior committee to consider and vote on in their first round, and then 11? others who were finalists considered by the committee when they met last August (and same for every senior finalists before and now after the centennial class). It is no easier path to the Hall for any senior candidate.
very true paul
And I have been following senior candidate elections closely since 1990s and fully in agreement that the process is not ideal, and many deserving candidates remain yet to be elected. And each summer,debate who should be the senior finalist and once named debate their worthiness over others. I have a list of my top 50 BUT will admit to anyone that there is a clear group of 10-20 (including many WRs from different eras) that are all deserving, there is a fine line between each.
I have as much frustration at those left out as anyone and if I look back over the last two decades (including the centennial class) there certainly are ones I seriously call into question. But I guess for me Drew Pearson is not one of those – and this is coming from a guy who has been pushing and hoping for fellow Cowboy Chuck Howley for two decades, and yes I think Howley should have been in before Pearson and Cliff Harris! But each year I am hopeful and then excited for each senior candidate that they are elected by the full committee because by that point the debate of which senior is over and every senior elected helps them all, helps advance the case and opportunities for others, and continues the important step that the full committee should ALWAYS accept the work and recommendation of the seniors committee because of the fact that failing to do so just dooms all senior candidates.
And with the 5 moderns in class of 2021, they are not the five I would have selected BUT again 10-15 finalists are deserving and the committee has selected those 5 and today I am happy for all five (plus Nunn, Flores and Pearson) because I know how hard it is very many to get in and the honor that it represents to them and their family, friends and teammates. That is what I am thinking of today.
No big complaints about this class. I would have preferred if Megatron waited a couple of years, but at least this prevents an even worse WR backlog in future years. Especially happy for Faneca and Lynch who have been finalists many times. I’ve been critical of Lynch in the past, but with Atwater getting in last year, I’m happy to see him get in to clear the way for Butler and hopefully Woodson getting in during the modern era vote.
Boselli, Thomas, Seymour and Butler all appear to have good chances at induction next year. Should be an interesting year with only Ware looking like a first-ballot inductee and only Andre Johnson looking like someone likely to be a finalist. We could see some interesting names moving into the finalist discussion, with only Patrick Willis looking like a great bet to make the leap from the semi-finalist holdovers from last year. Could we see a guy like Steve Tasker, Eric Allen, or Cornelius Bennett make a big leap late in their eligibility?
With Flores getting in, Coryell feels like the next person up out of the coaches. I think the conversation gets very interesting after that. Personally, I love what Dick Vermeil did, with quickly turning around 3 separate teams, but his career wins are admittedly pretty low. I think Buddy Parker has the best overall case personally.
I don’t think it’s a tough argument to make that there were more deserving candidates than Pearson in the Senior Pool, but his ticket was punched the moment the Hall inducted Harold Carmichael last year. I still feel like that was a strategic move to break up that 70s receiver backlog, and ensure that Branch, Pearson and possibly Jackson got inducted in the future. I personally view the 70s receivers the way I view the 00s running backs. There were a lot of very good players, but very little sustained dominance. I would have been fine if they only inducted a couple of receivers and then moved on, but it looks like the voters had other ideas…
For next year, I’d love for the Hall to continue cleaning up the 70s/80s backlog by nominating another former finalist like Gradishar, Greenwood, Hayes, Kuechenburg, etc. Howley would be the ultimate nominee, but I won’t get my hopes up.
Paul if you had to guess what’s keeping howley out
Lack of all decade, logjam of other Hall worthy LBs from his era, “lack of interest” by the voters in 80s 90s for many Landry era Cowboys (pushed Howley, Renfro, Wright, Hayes, Harris and Pearson) to back of line and then Howley just gets forgotten in a deep of pool, has become harder as voters in 2000s right the wrong with the other aforementioned Cowboys
Other senior lbs like howley for ex: curtis Vaughan fortuano am I missing others Paul
Nobis and Gradishar
Plus was LBs NICK BUONICONTI, CHRIS HANBURGER, DAVE ROBINSON – all elected but overlapped career at same position (Robinson is one that really pissed me off), add Nobis and Gradishar (yes not same career years but close) and you have long list of LBs that Chuck Howley had to compete against. I am not saying he was better or more deserving then all of them but certainly in the mix and the backlog of LBs from his era has impacted his chances. Also somewhat frustrating to know that Howley has been on the short list (10-15) considered by the seniors committee at their annual meeting numerous times in the last decade (those names are not released by the Hall, but many years they floated out on social media). So clearly there is interest by the committee but he has not taken the leap-was disappointed not to see him at least on the Centennial finalist, but lack of all decade hurt him there (got Cliff Harris on list and elected)
“All Decade and All pro (or MVPs, OPOY, DPOY etc…) are never perfect but we also simply can’t ignore that large group of experts determined who those players are, and if we are questioning what the seniors committee or full committee are doing we also need to be aware that they greatly value these designations and awards. Pearson we selected 3x first time all pro in 70s, first team all decade, centennial class finalist and senior finalist-seems that multiple times by given groups of “judges” or voters he has been recognized as an important figure in NFL history. Lists of the top 100 plays or catches in NFL history frequently have 3 made by Pearson, anyone with a full appreciation of the history of the NFL.”
The experts aren’t always correct. Lynn Swann had some great plays that he made in his career, too. I don’t necessarily see that as being Canton worthy.
“We all know that voting is flawed, that the centennial class was flawed, that All decade teams are flaws, but they are want we have and how we and voters are going to look at candidates. If we think Pearson was not deserving of those honors or election, what does that say about Robinson, Kramer, Hanburger, Tingelhoff, Brazile-are we accepting that the same honors they received was justified but for some reason Pearson’s are not? You don’t like the selection of Pearson, it is just as easy to make the same arguments for Hanburger over Howley for example or Kramer over Wistert. Its all subjective and based on opinions, there are no clear stats, film or analytics for most of these pre 1990s players. There are reasons all these guys are in the senior pool-for 20 yrs as a modern candidate, the voters for whatever reason decided they were not better than the other 5-7 moderns to be elected each year. Let’s not act as if there is a huge difference between Peason and say Howton or Jackson-if there was why were they not elected as moderns, what have the voters not screamed that they are all time greats?”
You do make some good points here, and to be honest, I don’t know everything. What I do know is that I look at the All-Decade Team at receiver in the 1970s. I see who made it and who didn’t make it, and I tell myself that that doesn’t look right. People may look at him not being the only offensive player from the 1970s Team not in Canton and think that’s an outrageous snub. Then, if you dig deeper, you ask yourself if they got the 1970s All-Decade Team right, and it’s the same thing with other teams. You ask yourself how Larry Morris got on the 1960s Team, or Joe Fortunato and Bobby Walston on the 1950s Team.
You also make good points about the others. With Brazile, for example, I can say that he was a Defensive Rookie of the Year in the 1970s, and made more Pro Bowls that decade than Pearson did his entire career. Of course, we can scrutinize this over every player, and every case, but again, I don’t know everything. The things that I do know, however, are enough to sound the alarm bells in my head. As somebody who is this passionate about this subject, I’m not going to look at some football history and learn about the careers of Hall of Famers/potential Hall of Famers and just eat up anything the Senior Committee does.
I felt Hanburger was the single best Senior candidate at the time of his selection, but Howley did quite a lot in his time to say that he’s worthy of it also. I see Howley, Baughan and Gradishar among the very most deserving Senior candidates. I’d prefer the first two, but only because of their ages and I want to see them get inducted. If Gradishar was chosen for 2022, I wouldn’t be upset. You can also argue Kramer vs. Wistert, Kramer also was one of the biggest snubs from Canton until his enshrinement. You can look at the Pro Bowl and All-Pro selections and see that all happened in the 1960s, which gives credence to him deserving the 1960s All-Decade honor.
I think there is a huge difference between Howton/Jackson and Pearson, because while Pearson may fit the “Fame” part of the Hall of Fame more, Howton was the NFL’s all-time leading receiver at one point, and an All-Decade snub. Jackson not being on the 1970s Team was a crime. As far as them falling into the Senior pool for a reason, we’ve discussed this before. You even said it yourself that the process was very political back in the 1980s. I even read a story that voters kept Tingelhoff out of Canton because they didn’t like Sid Hartman. They kept Robinson out because of an apparent Anti-AFL bias. Voters and their attitudes have changed through the years. I’m willing to guess that if the voters were as evolved back then as they are now that we wouldn’t have this much problem.
“I clearly don’t have a problem with Pearson, while acknowledging many others are also deserving including other WRs,. and frankly I really don’t think the case against him is even close as it could be debated for many other recent senior finalists (and I am not just referring to the centennial class). And yes I think a much stronger case and debate could be made of Kramer over Wistert (and I could mention others). But interestingly Kramer getting elected was made as such a wonderful occasion (and yes I think he was deserving) BUT the point is that his case is not without same level of debate you are having right here about Pearson-yet that never happened.”
Who are these seniors you have question in recent years, if I may ask? I was a big advocate of Wistert’s selection when he was still alive. Objectively, I did think others in the pool had better profiles, but I wanted to see him live to his induction. I had Kramer as my third most deserving Senior at the time of his selection, behind Robinson (since elected) and Howley (still waiting). I had Howley, Baughan and Gradishar ahead of Brazile, but I wasn’t going to get mad at Brazile’s selection because I thought he was one of the better candidates in the pool at any position. If Howton, Shofner, Jackson and Branch had all been inducted, and so many omissions weren’t in the Senior Pool like they are now, then I’d maybe have been more receptive to Pearson getting the nod.
“Drew Pearson is a PFHOFer and a deserving one, his election also clears the deck for the next one, and the one after that. His selection is not weak nor is it unjustified and his bust and name in Canton will be a welcome addition, nor one of uncertainty or shame, today lets honor that.”
Good for him and his family. It’s nothing personal against Pearson at all. There’s nothing I can do about it, except express my grievances, which I have a right to do. I accept that he got in, but I cannot, in good conscience, say his nomination was justified when you have others at his own position and from his era, much less the entire Senior Pool, have better numbers/profiles than he does. Maybe you can take solace in that, but I can’t.
I just find it interesting that you are applying this level of scrutiny to Drew Pearson. Seems like a lot of time effort dedicated to him whereas avoiding similar level of discussion (never seen you post here) on much more controversial and widely disputed cases like Dave Robinson or Curly Culp just to name two
Paul, I’ve been posting here for several years. I’m not sure what you’re saying. I have posted numerous times on here that I thought Dave Robinson was an abysmal selection, and shouldn’t be in Canton to begin with.
Here’s the thing, there’s not much debate when it comes to that. I think all of us agree that Dave Robinson was a poor choice and that Howley should be in Canton. I’m merely saying something all of us agree on. If anything, it’s the committee members who selected him that I’d love to have such a discussion with.
Someone like Pearson has generated debate on here. Therefore, I will use what I know to back up what I believe.
RIP Marty Schottenheimer
Says something when the debate is not about universally disliked senior picks (David Robinson) where we could really call out the bad decision made by the seniors committee, and draw upon the better alternative, but instead on a candidate that has wide spread support and was not a surprise addition to the centennial class nor as the 2021 senior finalist. Pearson may not be your “cup of tea” but he’s a far better senior PFHOFer than others in the Hall, and many others considered and discussed here, on social media and by the voters. You could certainly debate every senior PFHOFer (due to the deep pool of alternatives including many at same position and/or era), I just don’t think Pearson is close to the top of the most debatable and controversial decisions by the voters we have had in recent years.
Paul, Dave Robinson was nominated in 2012 for the Class of 2013. I’ve been dead set against Dave Robinson this entire time, but what can I do? That was eight years ago and we can’t kick him out even though he doesn’t belong. Of course there were so many better alternatives at the time at linebacker – Howley, Baughan, Gradishar, the since-elected Brazile, Stratton, Fortunato, Blair, Robertson, Grantham, even some whose candidacies I’m not overly crazy about like Curtis, Nobis and Jordan, but even they would’ve been better choices than Dave Robinson.
Yes, Pearson was a better selection than Dave Robinson, and a better selection than Carmichael. Being a better choice than Dave Robinson isn’t exactly a high bar to clear. I will repeat that I would put Pearson in the Hall of Fame before I would put Swann or Carmichael in, and he’s not as bad as someone like Covert or Sprinke (I say this as a die hard Bears fan). Still, we should want a high bar, not just induct those who can clear a low bar.
I can put Pearson in the Hall of Fame over some already inducted, but not over some who have yet to be inducted.
I see a defensive senior next year, whether Gradishar, Nobis, Riley or hopefully Howley.
Offense could happen but maybe a RB over a receiver, QB or lineman, though Wistert would be an excellent choice.
Brian
I do hope the door hasn’t been shut on Wistert, Dilweg and Emerson. Next year’s modern era Class is projected to be heavily slanted towards defense. Whether or not that has any influence on who the Seniors Committee choose is highly unlikely of course.
I too think it’s going to be a linebacker and Gradishar would fit the bill as another candidate who narrowly missed out on the Centennial Class, just as Pearson did.
Howley as a Cowboy and Branch/Jackson as another 70s WR likely getting pushed back unfortunately.
I know Pearson came out of the centennial class finalist, but perhaps still too easy to see how the senior committee handles that group (includes Wistert, Dilweg, Emerson, Gradishar, Nobis, Branch at al.). I would like to think they are at the top of those being considered but we know that Riley and Anderson were considered for the 2021 senior finalist, so hard to say how committee moves forward on these decisions. I have to think that if Rick Gosselin is in the room as one of five making the selection (I do not know if that was case in for 2021 finalist) he will continue to push for first team all decade and that means Wistert, Dilweg and Emerson.
I don/t see Howley or Branch getting selected any time soon unfortunately.
Currently on social media (understandably driven by fans and organized campaign efforts) some of the names being tossed around for 2022 senior candidate include Riley, Branch, Matthews Jr, Sterling Sharpe, Ken Anderson,
For modern candidates: Butler, Bosselli, Thomas, Fred Taylor, Willie Anderson
and Gradishar for 2022 senior….. there are numerous other suggestions but the ones I mentioned seemed to be the most frequent requests… Raiders are not satisfied with Flores and Woodson (not even taking time to relish and enjoy) as they are jumping on the criminal injustice of Swann/Pearson over Branch….
of those guys for seniors i could get behind riley branch anderson matthews might have a wait behind some guys like baughan gradishar howley stratton grantham in terms of modern id support butler thomas and yes willie anderson over boselli
The Pouncey twins retired today. Maurkice finishes at 3(2AP)/9/10s, and his Pro Football Reference HOF monitor number (73.78) is right in-between those centers that made the Hall (Mick Tinglehoff, 82.80) and those that haven’t (yet) (Jeff Saturday, 69.70). Is he getting in, and if so after how long a wait? https://twitter.com/morganwick/status/1360261933362946049?s=21
Yes, I do believe Pouncey is getting in, but if Will Shields, Dermontti Dawson, Kevin Mawae, Steve Hutchinson and Alan Faneca all waited, then Pouncey will, too. I’m not saying it’s fair, very deserving offensive linemen seem to wait for some reason.
I think they’ll put in Joe Thomas first ballot, but Pouncey will wait. I’ll see Pouncey gets in between his third-fifth try.
Does DeMarcus Ware get in on his first try? Does he cancel out Patrick Willis? I’d love to know the debate. These things are so hard to predict unless you know somebody is a slam dunk at getting on the first ballot – Manning, Woodson, Polamalu, Bailey, Reed, Gonzalez, etc.
I agree and think that Maurkice gets in eventually. DeMarcus Ware I believe will be the the only first timer to get in next year. I also thinks Boselli gets in, and patrick Willis makes the fianl 10, but I do believe they will elect Zach Thomas before Patrick Willis,
Does Jared Allen get in next year?
Does Vince Wilfork Get into the HOF down the road?
I think Maurkice will have a wait at least similar to Fanaca-as voters tend to downgrade Centers and Guards, perhaps 5-7 years.
DeMarcus Ware is only player with possible first ballot in 2022 and his profile of 4(3)/9/all decade/9th all time career sacks (138.5)/2x sacks leader (15, 20).SB would seem to meet the 1st ballot profile, and PFR 95.33 is just below HOF average (he is 9th and everyone above is in Hall).
I don’t think voters push Allen or Willis (yet to even make finalist list) past Ware in 2022.
My predictions for 2022 moderns remain Ware, Boselli, Butler, Thomas, Seymour, with outside chance for Holt/Wayne-instead of Thomas or Seymour. I really don’t see any others from remaining 2021 finalists, other semi-finalists or 1st ballot pushing past those seven for election.
Yeah, with the continued momentum of safeties getting voted in, I believe Butler will make it over Allen or Willis. Those seven sound about right Paul, though we cant forget about Ronde Barber as well … I dont see Willis jumping over Thomas and Ware should be first ballot, though being a pass rusher, his tackle numbers arent as good as other linebackers …
I think Ware, Butler and Thomas/Seymour will be enough defense for class of 2026 so doubt Barber makes the jump to election in that class
dont you mean 2022 paul not 2026
Oops
Andre Johnson is eligible next year. How far does he go?
I think Andre J or Steve Smith will be one of at least six new finalists, so we’ll be back at 3 WRs in the Top 15. Add Hines Ward and now A.Boldin too from next year and there’s a huge backlog even with C.Johnson’s election.
Looking at 2023-26 there doesn’t appear to be any more potential WR candidates until Larry Fitzgerald retires.
How many first-time eligibles will reach the Top 25 in November? Demarcus Ware, Tony Romo, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Nick Mangold, Devin Hester, Vince Wilfork, Robert Mathis, Anquan Boldin.
I think ware johnson smith boldin will be top 25
Still working on my 2022 semifinalists but Robert is likely close although not to sure that there will be 5 WR – seems like a lot
I don’t think that Anquan Boldin has any chance at being a semifinalist. Steve Smith has a much better chance, but I wouldn’t even say he is a lock. Andre Johnson has a pretty similar profile to Wayne and Holt, so he’s probably 50/50 to make the finalist round.
I am going to guess that the 6 new semifinalists next year are Ware, Andre Johnson, Watters, Wisniewski, Kevin Williams and Coates.
Hiw do you know that bslo
And just for the record bslo boldin was a guess
I have stated and admitted on record that I support as many as 60-80 players for the Hall including some upcoming players but I will admit, you just cant put all these eligible wide receivers in at once, or too soon into the HOF, if at all …
The inflated numbers, de-emphasation of hitting and press coverage by secondaries and rule changes have just made it too easy for many receivers to put up numbers that are incredible. Though admittedly, they are under much more srutiny for making legal or bang-bang play catches than past receivers from other eras.
I like a lot of them, that doesnt mean they have to enter the Hall over other deserving positions too soon. Hopefully the voters and committees do a good job of covering every qualification, accolade or contributions to a winning culture or postseason that seperate each other, though its difficult.
Though I believe Ware is deserving of first-ballot status, I think clearing the queue might be a better option next year but we will see.
oh i agree 100% about clearing the queue brian that should be the first priority
Priority should always be electing the best 5 moderns, if DeMarcus Ware is among that five next year he should be elected plus that still leaves four slots to address the queue (Boselli, Butler, Thomas, Seymour or others)
Next year they should clear the four returning names in the queue from this year’s 6-10. There will be six new names in the Top 10 and one of them will be in the Class of 2022, with the remaining five “in the queue” for 2023 and beyond.
There’ll be 20 available slots from 2022-25 and assuming Sam Mills doesn’t get elected in his final year of eligibility then the remaining eight finalists from 2021 are in good shape. That still leaves 12 names who are either not yet eligible or were semi finalists this year (Patrick Willis?)
Good calls BoKnows34 …
I think Hester, Romo and Wilfork might miss the semifinalist list, though many people like and want Hester to advance. He was electric, there is no doubt and the media loves him like they obviously did Calvin Johnson, so it will be interesting how much traction he will have in the next two years despite only 38 career TDs including postseason … a career very simliar to Billy Johnson and Rick Upchurch …
Romo may make the semifinalists list as well because of his statistics but I wouldnt put him ahead of McNabb, Cunningham or McNair, who had much better running numbers as well as better postseason success, at least McNabb and McNair but its subjective because Romo had been a media darling as well …
I think Bryant Young was a finalist for 2020 but didn’t make the cut this year with Matthews getting a late push and four first-time eligibles in the Top 15, and only Jared Allen not elected among that quartet.
My super early prediction is we’ll see Young, D.Woodson and Patrick Willis make the jump to finalist and join the queue behind Seymour, Butler and Thomas at their respective positions. Allen and Ware can fight it out among edge rushers.
Ware and either A.Johnson or Steve Smith as the first time eligibles in the Top 15, joining Young, Woodson and Willis . That’s five new names, leaving room for one more.
The 25 semifinalists for 2022 could be the same minus the six exiting players.
I believe Ware, A Johnston, Smith, K Williams and possibly Mankins or Hester possibly joining it as well, with maybe another back like Alexander or Watters.
We dont know if older veterans like E Allen, R Harrison, Bennett, Tasker, or Taylor make it back but I believe Mills will for sure.
2022 Final 25
DE Jared Allen
RB Shaun Alexander
DB Ronde Barber
OT Tony Boselli
S LeRoy Butler
KR Devin Hester
WR Torry Holt
WR Andre Johnson
LB Sam Mills
C Nick Mangold
G Logan Mankins
DE Simeon Rice
DL Richard Seymour
WR Steve Smith
WR/ST Steve Tasker
RB Fred Taylor
LB Zach Thomas
WR Hines Ward
DE/LB Demarcus Ware
RB Ricky Watters
WR Reggie Wayne
LB Patrick Willis
DT Vince Wilfork
S Darren Woodson
DT Bryant Young
2022 Final 15
DE Jared Allen
DB Ronde Barber
OT Tony Boselli
S LeRoy Butler
WR Torry Holt
WR Andre Johnson
LB Sam Mills
DL Richard Seymour
WR/ST Steve Tasker
RB Fred Taylor
LB Zach Thomas
DE/LB Demarcus Ware
WR Reggie Wayne
LB Patrick Willis
DT Bryant Young
2022 Elected Moderns (5)
OT Tony Boselli
S LeRoy Butler
DL Richard Seymour
LB Zach Thomas
DE/LB Demarcus Ware
and prediction of 6-10 finalists NOT elected in class of 2022:
DE Jared Allen
DB Ronde Barber
WR Torry Holt
LB Patrick Willis
DT Bryant Young
And the semifinalists and finalists predictions aren’t easy, I can usually get 20/25 and 11-12/15. But rest are really crapshoot
in terms of allen and ware you can really flip a coin allen 187 Games 136 Sacks 5/4 Profile Demarcus Ware 178 Games 138.5 Sacks 9/4 Profile
RIP Vincent Jackson
Ware has the edge with more total all pro, more pro bowls, more total career sacks, all decade team plus SB. If Jason Taylor was first ballot, Ware should be
PFR HOF monitor- Allen 68, Ware 93
PFR HOF monitor has Ware 95.33-9th with 8 above already in Hall (avg 106); Allen is 86.2 – 22nd (avg 103)
sorry Allen PFR hall score is 68.2
Allen is 68.2
i would take ware for the hall of fame next year would you blame me paul
?? I have pretty much made the case for Ware as first ballot
and you have done a pretty good job of doing so paul
you are a smart man robert
You have to admit though, If Ware gets voted in first ballot, while Allen continues to wait, it just shows how much postseason success matters … Both players numbers are very similiar, even in tackles and forced fumbles, tackles for loss etc but Ware has the ring and more accolades …
And how much all decade team and more all pro selections matter (well, re-enforces what we already knew)
As to Allen continuing to wait, I am not so sure having been on the ballot one year earlier really represents a candidate who needs to be elected because they are ahead in the queue. And I would like to see the case made that Allen is the better candidate for the Hall, and yes to no surprise (has been the case for decades) players with playoff success and numbers will have their case made stronger by that experience.
Since the aim of playing the game is to win, having success (including team wins and individual stats should matter). Its worth noting that Ware’s playoffs was not simply him being along for the ride, instead in 8 playoff games – including a SB, he had 7.5 sacks (including 2 in SB), 23 total combined tackles, 8 tackles for loss and 18 QB hits.
Hopefully after Butler is elected in 2022, Darren Woodson will have his chance next but the voters may decide to sit on safeties and go for other positions, with so many recent elections.
After Boselli there may not be another lineman elected till Thomas but hopefully voters could look at Anderson, Williams and someone like Nalen or Hull who are close to losing modern eligibility …
Kent Hull is now out of eligibility. I’d like to see Steve Wisniewski and Richmond Webb as semi finalists
Agree with Darren Woodson after Butler is elected. I think he could be a finalist in 2023.
OL would not have long wait if Boselli is elected next year as Joe Thomas is eligible in 2023 and agree that a Butler election would see Woodson to start advance through the process
With Pearson making the HOF, was planning on attending the whirlwind ceremonies in August. Has anyone on this site attended the ceremonies before and are the packages a good deal or should I just stay in Cleveland and attend for one of the two days ?
Since I am basically happy with most of the selections for the Centennial Class, would like to attend that as well but need to find the right package/weekend deal …
I have been several times, but not admittedly since 2010. Here is my advice, DON’T BUY the huge expensive one day or multi-day packages, big time markup for what you actually get. Really pisses me off that the Hall has went with these $$$$$$$ packages and promote them for months-and then release single event tickets for the enshrinement event (usually in March). They sucker unknowing fans into believing the packages are the only way to get tickets for the enshrinement.
Search for hotels away from Canton, Cleveland less than 1 hr dr as plenty more choices and better prices further away from Canton-even if you attend both days-and would need to drive in each morning.
I think the 2020 enshrinement (Saturday evening) may be sold out-still possible Hall release unsold tickets or you can find on secondary ticket market. For the 2021 enshrinement (Sunday evening) individual event tickets will be on sale by Hall soon-keep keeping website or sign-up for email updates.
Whatever your plans are, get to the Hall early in morning (signs will direct you to off site parking, free bus shuttle to Hall) and if you want to get into Hall itself do as soon as you can (time they open). Place will be packed, on the grounds and especially in the Hall as it is not designed for large crowds and you could be waiting in line for hours at door before getting in Hall if you leave it to mid day or later.
And I fully expect sold out events all week and huge crowds all weekend-largest Canton has even seen, so plan accordingly especially if you find crowds and lines annoying (like I do!!).
Its not the small intimate event it once was (pre-2000) and grows each year. The only “down” years in terms of buzz and attendance is when there are no major players highlighting the class or the teams playing the game. Also player or teams from nearby markets (GB, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburg) will all draw plenty of fans – as will the most popular players. This years are perfect storm for all that!!
It takes some careful planning and “budgeting” but it is an experience anyone who is a football fan or us in here with obsessions about the Hall should attend at least once.
I have attended several, I can make it into a same day trip travel for me, took my young son a few times and enjoyed (plus another bunch of trips just to visit the Hall only). Would get up close to players and even get free autographs (those opportunities all but gone now), and have plenty of great memories and stories to tell. But the dates are when we now take our weekly summer vacation to a lake cottage so harder to schedule to attend.
If you have any other questions please post and I will try and help as I live in Ohio and know that area of Cleveland and Canton very well. I am planning trip to Hall at end of August (usual timing for me), as latest class busts will be on display and crowds are low as summer family vacation trips coming to the end, kids back in school, too early in school year for student trips (Hall runs an educational program for local schools), and before football season starts-so small crowds.
When Witten gets elected I will try to attend, and if and when Howley is selected I feel sense of support and obligation to attend. But until then I record the televised events, and watch at home, which is easier, less time and certainly cheaper!!
Thanks Paul, I appreciate the information. I visited the HOF in 2008 but never induction ceremonies. It will be crazy !!
Was hoping to not only try to meet Pearson along with other players but obtain a throwback #88 jersey …
Does the HOF during Induction Ceremonies week allow for the inductees or their former teams to sell throwback jerseys or other memorabilia of the athletes ?
I never understood why the NFL, NFL Properties, the HOF and Mitchell & Ness or other throwback jersey manufacturers like Ebbets.com didnt officially license throwback jerseys for its current and incoming HOF player members ? Maybe its too complicated to work out …
The only autograph sessions run by the PFHOF are for entire class – you buy one ticket and can get items signed by all members. They also have signings for many returning PFHOFer. Information and sales of these tickets comes out in June. Unlike BBHOF there aren’t other companies or opportunities to get individual PFHOFer signatures
There is also a large tent selling merchandise, mostly from Hall but some other venders and companies but I found little that you could find cheaper online and not much unique such as throwback jerseys
Just wanted to add that occasionally newly elected PFHOFers are part of the returning Gold Jacket individual player autograph sessions. Not sure how they will handle the two classes in terms of class autograph sessions or individuals but watch for updates on Hall enshrinement event schedule this summer, around June. And I expect sessions will sell out early and be crowded. Many recent and new PFHOFers also appear at private signings or sports memorabilia shows this spring and summer – although with COVID going and meeting players in person may not be option. However you can send in items to be signed for you at these events
Thanks Paul, I may try that but I want to just meet them and thank them for their play and careers … not an autograph seeker.
I met him at a sports collectibles show in mid 1990s and he was great with everyone especially fans and kids (and over years I have met 30+ pro athletes) – he was one of the best interacting and approachable
Brian: from Hall today “ Mark your ??: Single event tickets for the #PFHOF21 Enshrinement on 8/8 go on sale this Friday (3/5) at 10am ET! Pricing starts at $29.”
Thanks Paul, from HOF site ? Will get on it.
Yep, watch Hall website to buy tickets there
I read an early post supporting Wisniewski and Webb as potential HOFamers. I would as well and I would include Willie Anderson of the Bengals.
Bill
The logjam at OL is almost clear, esp if Boselli gets elected next year. Hopefully there is now a path for some new names to emerge. I think Wisniewski has been a semi-finalist before but got lost in the shuffle behind Mawae, Hutchinson and Faneca.
Once Boselli and Thomas (2023) are elected I would expect to see Anderson, Wisniewski and Webb all starting moving forward in the process as it will be a while before the 2010s all decade OL start to flood the ballot.
Huge contract for Prescott, especially after a bad ankle injury … I think Elliott will be gone in 2022. We will see if Dak can get better …
Like Goff, Stafford, JimmyJ the only way a large QB contract would be successful is with a SB win. Dak was playing at high level at start of 2020 season and a new contract requires passing a physical so he must be good to go but you can never know with such serious injuries. And yes 2021 is make or break season for Zeke, anything short of 1,400 yd 10+TD season will be seen as disappointing and tempting for Cowboys to drop his contract in 2022 (interesting to note that his was one contract not restructured by Dallas this week, suggesting they also view 2021 as key year in deciding on his future on roster)
Drew Brees has officially retired – PFHOF2026
Absolutely! what does that 2026 1st time ballot look like now?
Retirement was the right call for Brees. Though his accuracy and smarts could still win games, he had too much pride to share or split starts or be a backup. By postseason time his arm would be too tired, which is why they should have ran Kamara more but Payton liked Brees throwing …
In the early 2010 years, Brees had a terrible defense when he could have won another Super Bowl but the last four years, the defense was good enough but too many costly turnovers and errors by the offense made it frustrating for Brees …
A great, honored career and probably first ballot in 2026 …
2026 eligibles include Drew Brees, Philip Rivers, Jason Witten, Greg Olsen and Maurkice Pouncey.
Just wait if Fitz and AD end up not playing
At this point only Brees would be first ballot
Fitzgerald will be interesting …
Even if he retired I honestly dont think he will or should be first ballot. His hands might be the best in NFL history but he had too many pedestrian seasons, though admittedly, a lot of mediocre QBs other than Warner and Palmer. A great team guy with many TDs but will it be enough ?
2nd all time in career receptions is first ballot-no question
I’d be stunned if Fitz wasn’t a first ballot choice. 2nd in Receptions and Receiving yards.
Fair enuff on Fitz …
Gore, third in all-time rushing yardage.
First ballot HOF ?
Gore never lead league in rushing, was all pro once (2nd team) and has 5 pro bowls.
Fitz lead league in reception or receiving yards 2x, total 3 times all pro and has 11 pro bowls
So likely voters won’t view Gore as first ballot, their cases are not really the same
I don’t agree with the message it sends making Calvin Johnson the dope loving early retiring WR, who’s Team never won a thing a 1st ballot HOFer . That said I doubt any of that matters in the Orwellian times we live in now where right is wrong and wrong is right. We are becoming an upside down society morally. Maybe he got extra credit for smoking pot after every game. lol
More importantly I don’t believe his game deserved 1st Ballot HOFer which has always been rare air especially for a WR. It makes me wish Terrell Owens would of been a 1st Ballot guy. At least I thought he deserved it on the field and for his career where it counts.
There’s a lot of film on Johnson and while he was one of the better physical specimens to come into the League and had God given ability for the game, his game seemed too vanilla to me. I’ll give you he was productive and one of the best WR during his time. I guess you can say I’m splitting hairs but integrity seems important to me. I guess I’m looking at wrong sports HOF for that. .lol Add it to the growing list of suspect decisions. At least Johnson belongs in the HOF. LOL
The rest of the player picks are fine. One can almost always quibble some on the Senior player chosen because they have all waited so long and we have our favorites. As for Flores I wouldn’t of selected him. I think he landed in a good spot with the Raiders. I think his work with Plunkett and his guts to stick with him paid off in spades and he deserves credit. I always find it interesting when someone is seen in a greater light around a SB winning Team like Flores was with the Chiefs than the next year they make to the HOF. LOL It happened for Dick LeBeau 0/3 and Emmitt Thomas 1/5 too. Who knew Emmitt Thomas was alive until the Falcons went to the SB and the media did a special piece on him as a Cornerback Coach there? lol I’ll never forget him getting announced when Johnny Robinson 6/7 was on everyone’s mind. I’m not against Thomas but that was a shock than Floyd Little and y’all know the history of Johnny’s long wait.
Like EF Hutton, when TonyP talks … people listen.
Me and Paul had a great debate all year about Johnson getting elected first ballot. I agreed that he should wait but knew the media would help him out. Clark Judge and Ron Borgas have bemoaned all the first ballot HOF players that keep getting elected and who knows what will happen next year with Ware, A Johnson and others. Hopefully the queue can be cleared based on trends in the voting process but new players –and their status within the media–can change that but if Hester gets voted in first ballot, I will be more critical of the process …
Talkoffame network did a good piece on Gary Clark as well. His big plays and two championships with the Redskins deserve more attention but receivers crowd the senior pool …
The debate about the wave of first ballot selections last decade is a fair one as is the concern that the “honor” of first ballot has been watered down by the voters. But it’s not a trend that’s going to continue. If you look at 2022-2026 there are no elections where three first ballot are likely and 2022 is just first of those future elections that will at most see one elected. So the debate will simply fade away.
Probable first ballot in future elections looks like: 2022-Ware, 2023-JThomas, Freeney?, 2024-Peppers? Gates; 2025-Kuechly; 2026-Brees, Fitz? Not saying they all get in but this is extent of list
Revis is another possible in 2023 but doubt both Freeney and Revis are first ballot, likely just one
Revis instead of Freeney in 2023 is another possibility – but not both
I’m back to stir the pot a little! LOL
Brian, I was part of debate so I guess no surprise I’m disappointed with Johnson. But I’m over it! LOL I do think Gary Clark is deserving. You know I like the small guys that achieve big numbers. The Bucs sure neutralized Tyreek Hill in Super Bowl but I’m still really high on him and maybe 1st Ballot. We’ll see. :)
I agree Paul that topic has been watered down some. It was roaring for Terrell Owens. To me it’s still a big deal to say a player got in on first year of eligibility. I guess Jared Allen missed on it. I suppose there wasn’t any an uproar over that? lol I wonder if it’s noted on player bio when you go to HOF ??
Ware and Peppers’s career’s are slightly better than Allen. I wouldn’t put any of them in on first ballot. They probably will! lol
Freeney nope not in my HOF for at least 10 years.
Kuechly could wait as long as Zach Thomas. Thomas needs to be in NOW. I’m surprised he didn’t get Johnson’s spot this year.
With all the emphasis on “race” do we dare say white players are being slow walked to be recognized?? I would of never suggested 20 years ago but after years of “critical race theory” there’s a perception in society that we don’t want to reward “Whites” too much. lol I don’t really believe with the HOF but not totally out of realm of possibility. IMO, it feels like there’s an assumption if your Black and all things are equal you must be a better player. Jimmy the Greek and “White Men Can’t Jump” did a real disservice to athletics perception IMO. I thought Lynch would of gotten in much sooner. He was a really great player and a brusier and winner! I’m glad he finally made it.
And what’s the deal with Randy Gradishar? “Gradishar is one of 10 linebackers in NFL history with at least 20 interceptions, 10 or more fumble recoveries, and a minimum of seven Pro Bowl appearances.” “The other nine are Ray Lewis, Joe Schmidt, Jack Lambert, Brian Urlacher, Willie Lanier, Ted Hendricks, Jack Ham, Dick Butkus, and Chuck “Concrete Charlie” Bednarik”.
Gradishar was one of the best when I was watching in the late 70’s and on a high profile team. I watched Robert Brazile every Sunday and IMO it’s hard to say he had a better career. He did have more sacks but I didn’t think Brazile was as consistent but he had the big hits and cool nickname and they put him on the all important All Decade team for the 70’s that we know is so telling. LOL
The thing about first ballot is that it’s not a special honor recognized by the Hall, their class of 2021 press release didn’t mention the 1st ballot nor do their bios, busts or any display in the Hall. Hall always views every PFHOFer the same as they should, it’s the equal honor regardless of when and how you get in. So the media and public calls it out and some voters (fewer now than in the past) make a big deal of first ballot and how it should be a special honor only for the few. But the current 48 voters clearly don’t see it that way (Jason Taylor was 1st ballot !!!. We debate it as do fans and media but as we talk about often it’s influenced by who else is on ballot and my view is that today it’s overrated and certainly overvalued as a “honor”. My approach is to look at ballot and consider best five and if Peppers or Freeley or Revis or Gates are among top 5 in year they first appear in ballot the elect them – it’s that simple.
Peppers made both 2000s and 2010s all decade teams and once Seymour is elected (soon) Freeney will be only remaining 2000s first team defensive player not in. Very possible both won’t be first ballot but neither will have king of a wait as voters love those pass rushing sack guys
You’re right Paul but at the same time a first-ballot player should have hardly any flaws on his/their playing resume and as Ron Borgas said, his name alone should be enough with no debate on his career. Had Polamalu waited … or had Johnson waited, other players like Faneca, Boselli, or Lynch would have already been voted in. It’s obvious that skill position players get more attention than players in the pit, so players like Pouncey, Mankins or K Williams will have to wait awhile to get in.
Yes, C Johnson was great but was he that much better than Holt, Wayne, Ward or even former Lion, Herman Moore, to go in his first year of eligibility ?
Then the question is, lets say Ware or Freeney get in first ballot, how long does Jared Allen wait ? Like Leslie O Neal, a fan assumes he gets in quickly but instead he may wait over 20 years !
Will Allen be punished for not winning a SB, because his stats are just as good as the other two ?
Borgas makes a good point, except that hasn’t been view of the 48 voters for many years. Sure seems he’s in the minority view and now after Jason Taylot and the genie is out of the bottle it doesn’t seem fair or likely to revert. Apparently there was an almost 1/2 hr discussion on Megatron case that focused on this exact issue – sure looks like the majority decided it wasn’t a concern and went ahead and elected him. As much as I may agree with him, I look at the voting trends and how voters view candidates and although we won’t see as many as three a year in coming elections that will continue to those elected that would fail the standard of “say their name and sit down” And it’s worth noting that the “honor” has been given by some voters, media and public – it’s not recognized in any significant way by or in the Hall
And again like it or not, but clear for sometime that voters favor SB winners. It is a clear edge for Ware (2 sacks in SB) and Freeney. Just like all decade carries weight (right or wrong it’s factor)
Very good observations both of you. Totally agree Ware will get edge for SB. I believe the way a player finishes can affect the voters. Than again sometimes with Seniors it almost feels like they would rather pick more obscure player. Some of the the Cowboys come to mind that have been overlooked for example. I’m not sure why it took Pearson and Harris took so long?While I wasn’t supporter, may of been Team more than players lol,they clearly were great players for a long time on one of the Teams of the 70’s and without my bias deserved a bust for long time. Steelers don’t have to wait. Maybe I just answered?lol
And I’m glad to hear no delineation on HOFers in the Hall. That’s the way it should IMO. Besides the fans know who the cream of the crop are.
If they love pass rushing DE’s why isn’t Jared Allen in? He was one of the best I’ve seen and did with flare and a motor like few others. I should expect him next year? He was a better player than Freeney IMO who totally one dimensional. Richard Seymour’s case is not overwhelming to me with pedestrian sack and tackle numbers for a HOFer. I remember him being a stud for about 3 years. I can’t say he belongs in soon. .
I suppose there could be something said for the system Seymour was in holding him back? He may of been a better player than numbers show.
As to Allen voters have shown for some time they will wait on players without all decade – when was the last 1st ballot modern without that honor? It will hurt his case again next year when Ware with all decade, SB and multiple all pro and pro bowls is on ballot
I have to.ask Tony p before you posted did you have a snickers
Everyone who finished ranked 6-10 this year should be elected by 2023.
Allen reached the final 15 the first time of asking so it’s only a matter of time really. They might elect one pass rusher per year like they did with the OL. If they do then Ware, Allen, Peppers and Freeney will likely receive their gold jackets by 2026.
For me, Revis gets in ahead of Freeney in 2023 alongside Joe Thomas. I’d agree with Tony that Freeney was too one dimensional for me.
There’ll be 25 new modern era players elected after 2026 and there may be a few more retirements this off-season like Fitzgerald, Peterson and Gore.
When I have more time I’ll try and predict those 25. Eight of the 10 finalists who didn’t get elected this year should get in by then (Mills and Matthews being the exception). That still leaves another 17, a mix of future first-time eligibles and some returning semi finalists (Patrick Willis?). The backlog at WR will be the biggest headache.
And 2022-2026 will likely add another 20+ semi-finalists, a few elected first ballot, others within 2-4 yrs on ballot, but one could add these to the 20 2021 semifinals not yet elected. Elect a total of 25 from 2022-2026 and you still have another 15+ carrying over to 2027 (and that does not even include other 2021 preliminary list members moving into semi-finalist list. Good luck predicting any beyond 2026 (heck even 2022-2026 are hard), besides the likely obvious Brady, Gronk, BenR etc… and other 2010s all decade players
First Ballot predictions
Ware … yes ?
Thomas … yes
Peppers … yes
Freeney … no
Revis … no
A Johnson … no
S Smith … no
A Boldin … no
Witten … no
Gates … yes ?
Kuchley … no
Brees … yes
Fitzgerald … yes ?
There’s a guy with one more TD than Calvin Johnson’s 83 who did it in 150 fewer catches at 5’9″ who IMO was a more skilled player who can’t get a sniff from HOF. I’d like to know who the guys were who beat out the guy who that caught 18 TD’s in a season for All Pro? He also had 1,389 yds and 19 ypc avg. lol
No have not had snickers yet Robert. Haha I will buy some tomorrow. hehe
If I was in charge lol
First Ballot predictions
Ware … N year 2
Thomas … Y
Peppers … N year 2
Freeney … N year 15 years lol Look at how long Jack Youngblood waited and was a better over all player.
Revis … N – I see him as Mike Haynes type.
A Johnson …N 2nd year
S Smith … N wait a good while
A Boldin … N Hall of very Good – Keenan McCardell
Witten … N 2-3 years shannon Sharpe type
Gates … Y – One of the best I’ve seen. Like Gonzalez a great athlete who played basketball.
Kuchley … N no clue but not a 1
Brees … Y no brainer
Fitzgerald … N just barely a 2 .
What I think will happen if the field doesn’t prevent.
Ware … Y
Thomas … Y
Peppers … Y
Revis … Y
Witten … Y
Gates … Y
Brees … Y
Fitzgerald … Y
Not sure what you mean by “the field”… if you are referring to the majority of 48 voters they have made their view pretty clear-not limiting 1st ballot elections to a select few. Since they elected Jason Taylor first ballot then Ware, Thomas, Peppers, Freeney, Revis, Gates, Witten, Brees, Fitzgerald should all be 1st ballot, they won’t but most will be.
Frankly its not the special honor some make it out to be and is overrated in terms of the voting process and outcome in my view. It really is not know seen as a problem unless 3 are elected in one year, but that is not going to be case for 2022-25 elections, and may not be for 2016 unless AP and Fitz join Brees.
I don’t know how big of an honor it is either but it makes for some pretty judgement discussion. lol
I miss spoke about the “field” for all of those players. A couple are slam dunk but some maybe viewed as borderline 1st ballot like Fitz IMO. But depending on the field circumstances which I don’t follow as close as you Paul that could factor into if he makes it. I suspect there are some pretty strong candidates that have waited to point some might think it’s just too long to go one more year. Maybe thinking doesn’t work that way? Kind of getting into minutia for no good reason. lol My gut tells me more voters than not would like to see those guys be put in right away.
ts days I must of forgot Jason Taylor was first ballot. I’m huge Miami Dolphin fan but wouldn’t agree with that. I guess that result does bode well for Freeney. Do we think J.J. Watt gets in on first time eligibility also? I think the move to Arizona is a good choice for him.
Deshaun Watson want’s out of Houston too. I don’t think that will be problem now. He’s radio active. Who know’s what to believe. He has such a clean image. Well had, really too bad if not true. I noticed all 13 women had the same attorney.
I
Watt walks in 1st year
Paul. will you support Cliff Branch now that Drew Pearson. An argument could be made he was of so slightly more deserving than Pearson. He could be another Raider like Stabler who gets put in after death.
Just in case you forgot what Branch looked like. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr7I2qak9fI
I’m not sure why he’s under looked but not by people who know talent. Also 14 years and 3 SB’s . Really durable too. He needs to be in the HOF now.
I certainly support Cliff Branch-always have – BUT for me he still comes after Chuck Howley, Lavvie Dilweg, Randy Gradishar, Ox Emerson, and Al Wistert.
I think he has been hurt by the number of 70s 80s Raiders already in Hall (see recent story in Talk of Fame by voter Rick Gosselin for some insight), plus lacks all decade (not fair, but true), and grouped into 70s 80s WRs whose stats were surpassed by 90s and 2000s WRs, and no 70s 80s WR really dominated their era.
I think Branch will get in one day, not so sure the 2022 seniors committees goes back to back selections with 70s early 80s WRs. Willing to bet they go defense with Randy Gradishar the favorite. Would be even better if they took step to nominate a pre 1960 candidate, like those not elected in the centennial class (Emerson or Wistert) who have really good cases.
I get the emotional aspect of electing Branch who recently passed away but voters have really never taken that into account and frankly if they did what about Tommy Nobis 1(1)/5/60s all decade, who like Branch was a centennial class finalist yet passed away in 2017?
I don’t know if Branch should be after Gradishar but that’s splitting hairs. They both deserve it. Those were some great match ups with Raiders and Broncos of late 70’s and early 80’s.
I need to watch the episode of who they think are the top ten not in the HOF. They had Branch at 5 that’s pretty high. I agree Howley is a priority like for 10 years. lol . I like first round draft picks who deliver like he did.
Yup, Jake Scott is another one who just passed. I would think Cliff Harris and Drew Pearson could possibly clear the way for him. I don’t think there’s an emotional aspect once a player is gone. To me it’s like what’s the hurry now. lol I hate that some great players never get to enjoy the honor. :( I don’t get Bob Kuechenberg not in yet. He was everything you’d want in a Guard and has a high profile of winning.
TouchdownWire in summer of 2019 had this list in order :
10. Chuck Howley, Amazing he even had a career after a devastating knee injury in 1959.
9. Harold Jackson
8. Richard Tombstone Jackson. Everyone who saw him said he was a terror but not deserving IMO. Career too short for the position he played and was in AFL .
7. Cliff Branch – How is Harold Carmichel more deserving? I will give you both were unique weapons.
6. Ken Anderson – y’all know how I feel on this one. Very close but falls just short for me.
5. Ken Riley – oh man not even on my radar ever. lol
4. Randy Gradishar
3. Jim Marshall – another sentimental reach IMO
2. Don Coryell – Such a tough call. I’d say no.
1. HC / Advisor Clark Shaughnessy ?? who lol Maybe so.
Here’s my Senior list off the top most deserving off top my head but I’m only including players I saw play.
!. Chuck Howley
2. Cliff Branch
3. Randy Gradishar
4. Harold Jackson
5. LC Greenwood
6. Louis Wright ?
7. Bob Kuechenberg
8. Lemar Parrish
9. .Harvey Martin
10. Jake Scott
posted before but here are my top ten. Frankly would certainly prefer this order but anyone here would not be issue for me if elected, its a subjective call as you could make strong case for any of them. Personally many of the online polls, stories and NFL Network lists of most deserving not already in the Hall (especially if they include seniors) are usually a hot mess of most popular names picked by people who have not actually looked at all the eligible seniors and miss out on my deserving names:
1. LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP (2021F)
2. Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s (2020F)
3. LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7 (2020F, 2021F)
4. G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s (2020F)
5. WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4 (2020F, 2021F)
6. OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s (2020F)
7. LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
8. CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s
9. DB Jimmy Patton NYG 5(1)/5/60s
10. RB Roger Craig SF (1)/3/80s (2020F, 2021F)
Am I right that no one from the Orange Crush Defense is in the HOF? Gradishar and Wright deserve IMO. Wright was so good at bump and run coverage that no one wanted to throw on him that’s the reason for low INT’s. Lemar Parrish is the 8 time Pro Bowl CB player not in the HOF. I remember the trade to the Redskins was kind of a big deal. Redskins did that with Jake Scott and Joe Lavender too.
I can’t remember exactly how I came down on my evaluation but I didn’t have Emerson in the HOF. For Dilweg, I can admire he was the best two-way player of his time but did he stand out enough at one position? Do we think Meador was as good as Johnny Robinson? If not I’m inclined not to support.
As you can see my evaluation is heavily weighted towards multiple all pro and all decade, not so much on pro bowls. But it’s just one way to view senior candidates not yet elected
Agreed with your list paul although I’d flip branch and wistert
Yea the order could easily go differently- it’s that close
My Top 10 Most Deserving Seniors For HOF
Howley
Wistert
Lewellen
Howton
Gradishar
D Anderson
Benton
OJ Anderson
Branch
Craig/Meador
Benton? Not a name I have seen on list of top deserving seniors
He was only the second leading receiver to Hutson in the 40s with championships for the Rams and Bears. Worthy of election.
Dilweg, Latone, Al Nesser, Emerson, Brito, Patton, Powell, Grayson, H Martin and Roger Brown are just behind my ten …
brian could you explain your reasoning for having dick anderson on your list of 10
Not so sure about Benton – there a dozens of senior candidates with 2 all pro and all decade – what sets him about from those plus those with 3+ all pro. To me he seems he falls into a large group of similar candidates
I concur With paul 100% on benton i dont consider benton a senior wr candidate not before branch howton shofner among other wr’s
I disagree Paul …
Benton started out in the single-wing era before the T Formation and still had more TDs than Mac Speedee, not to mention the single game yardage receiving record for nearly 40 years. His pass catching allowed Bob Waterfield to be the LAST rookie QB to win a championship and he also helped the Bears win one when Ken Kavanaugh left for the military …
Dick Anderson like Jake Scott, Robert, had a short career due to injuries but was a great safety who could cover and hit and was CLUTCH in the postseason for the Dolphins.
With Scott, the Dolphins were hard to pass on and never gave up cheap TD passes.
Another thing about Anderson, had the Dolphins not been so bad in 68 and especially 69 with Griese injured, Anderson could have been All-AFL … he was that good and great at interception returns as well.
i will endorse dick anderson but not until the following are inducted or consider jimmy Patton Eddie Meador Lester Hayes Dave Grayson
I understand Robert, all great players.
Many great safeties fall through the cracks because the HOF simply didnt care about them for many years. Now, they keep adding more, which will help eligible seniors, though its a wait. Just because I chose a Dick Anderson over a Cliff Harris –and I was a hardcore Cowboy fan–doesnt mean both dont belong. I respect Paul and others, going for more All-Pro honors but postseason success means more to me than pro bowls or all-decade status, which until the eighties was very flawed …
Benton just seems to me as one of many that fall into a large group (2x all pro), is he more deserving than Cowboys DE Harvey Martin 1(2)/4/DPOY/SB MVP/2nd team All Decade-whom I don’t even have in my top 25 senior candidates?? Seems like there are plenty of 3+ first team all pro and all decade that could be in one’s top ten.
Brian I tend to be a little careful in weighing postseason success as those really are team accomplishments and just being on a team does not make an individual career achievement, UNLESS we are talking about QBs or players that had huge impacts or stats in playoffs/SBs (yards, TDs, INTs, sacks etc…).
Youre mostly right Paul and theyre plenty of players that have enough accolades to be perhaps more deserving but the HOF still needs to do a better job of acknowledging the early stars that helped move-make the sport into what it is today.
Dilweg, Lewellen, Latone, Nesser, Emerson and others were great single wing players that have been mostly forgotten but deserving of more recognition but once the T-Formation took hold of pro-football, players like Benton, Kavanaugh, Shaughnessy as a coach, later Shaw as a coach, Isbell and Albert as QBs, though their careers were short, helped tranform the game in the fans imagination and I hope some of these coaches and players can get recognized by the Hall eventually before more modern players get recognized. Wishful thinking, sure but I am hopeful at least that Wistert or Dilweg or Emerson still have a SHOT, in these next three senior elections, though Gradishar is many peoples choice for the next elected senior …
id be happy with either wistert or gradishar brian
Haha … by the time my Top Ten players get elected into the Hall, my energy will reincarnate into another infant awaiting to physically encounter life’s trials, tribulations and pathos …
I certainly don’t have a problem with Hall voters needing to do better job with early NFL history, just not so sure Benton is one of the most deserving , certainly not top ten
i back what paul said 100% about the early nfl history my top guys would be: Lavern Dilweg Ox Emerson Al Wistert Verne Lewellen, who would you add paul
I have not done extensive research on more pre 1950 players but that list seems to be the ones have have been getting focus and attention, including by voters in recent years (and BRP). Not aware of others that have serious cases and advocates and would be surprised to see others pop up in the debate (although there are plenty of pre 1950 all decade team players not in Hall). Willing to bet in coming years if any are selected as senior finalist – and still plenty of uncertainty about that happening – they would come from that list.
possible candidates for election as 1st ballot in 2026 expanding, now has Brees, Rivers, Witten, Fitz (and possibly AD and Gore)
Good comments! Do you want some help Brian? lol Just kidding everyone knows where I fall. lol I am curious though your thoughts comparing Jake Scott and Dick Anderson? I really like Anderson but have my impression is Scot was a better athlete giving him greater range and his hits were a little more intimidating. Anderson had some great games and a couple really nice season INT totals with 8. He as such an heady player. I can be swayed. :) A lot of players on those Dolphin Teams were smart.
I’ve never heard of Benton. I’m just of the mind the players who finished their careers before 1960 are pretty well picked over and there aren’t many convincing cases left. I only remember two or three I agreed with.
I know that’s not a popular view here. How long have they done the Senior selections? Yup, last year was the best chance with that Special Panel. I’d be real surprised if anyone before 1950 gets elected to HOF now.
I hope I’m wrong for you guys’s sakes. . I know you believe in some of these guys. I’m not saying they aren’t HOF material. I just haven’t seen enough in my limited research to convince me.
Tony p: I agree completely 100% on jake scott I’d endorse scott over Anderson
The debate here of Scott vs Anderson is likely what the voters have struggled with over the years- which one stands above the other and you unfortunately end up with neither elected. If we are divided on our opinions so likely are the voters including now the senior committee.
Haha … was I the only person that watched Anderson play ? Though admittedly, it was on broadcast games collected from the internet.
Scott was the Dolphins centerfielder and deserving of election but Anderson was their biggest hitter, evidenced by his big hits on Stabler in the 1973 AFC Championship on 4th down that sealed the game, as well as his big hit on Larry Brown that seperated his helmet in the 72/73 SB. His hitting and tackles were also big against the Steelers in the 72 AFC Championship game. His two interceptions and fumble recovery helped beat the Browns in the 72 div playoff and everyone remembers his great interception return to help beat the Colts in the 71 AFC Championship game. He also had big interceptions against the Bengals and Raiders in playoff games. His huge game against the Steelers in 74, put QB Gilliam on the bench for good and put Bradshaw back in the lineup.
He was AFL defensive Rookie of the year and AFC Defensive player of the year. Like Scott, he was all over the place.
Will Edelman retire ?
Tough and Clutch. Isnt a HOF player but played the biggest in the biggest games.
I will say it here first … He will rehab his knee this upcoming season and sign with the Bucs for the 2021/22 postseason.
Sounds like he is planning on retiring, and plenty of passionate debate on social media regarding his Hall chances (from dedicated Patriots fans).
But the reality is that without a single all pro or pro bowl selection he has no chance to advance into finalist stage (no candidate lacking those accomplishments has ever been elected). There is a high bar to election and with only 5 moderns and 1-2 seniors elected each year, he simply is never going to reach that level. Most people advocating for his case have no idea of the voting process, trends and how really difficult it is to get in Hall and very selective.
With what you said Paul, its hard for a player to even make a preliminary list, much less a semifinal list without a pro-bowl, all conference or all-pro nomination. Plunkett might have been the last player to do it …
Best Players to never make Pro Bowl or All Pro
Jim Plunkett
Don Macek
Jim Jeffcoat
Dennis Thurman
Jon Kolb
Amani Toomer/Marques Colston
Don Shinnick
Billy Shields
Simon Fletcher
Plaxico Burress
Julian Edelman/Freddie Soloman
Karlos Dansby
Curtis Johnson
Ray Mansfield
Steve Grogan
Joey Galloway
Glen Ressler
Jumpy Geathers
There seems to be this odd situation regarding eligibility to even appear on the preliminary list. It has often been stated that a player must have at least one all pro or pro bowl to be eligible, but I can not find a written policy anywhere. It may have been a guideline or one used informally by Hall staff in accepting nominations and I understand Plunkett may have been waived onto the list (perhaps because of the SB MVP??). Application of that “requirement” may have been used or ignored in past depending on Hall staff making the decisions-but who knows???
But you are right, its a huge jump from 100+ even to the 25 semi-finalist, and then again to the final 15. And if one reviews the 15 finalist going back years it has been populated by players with all pro and pro bowls (multiple selections in many cases). So I agree it would seem to be an impossible step, unprecedented for a player to be elected without any all pro or pro bowl, and that includes as a senior.
I am not surprised that the case of a high profile player with 3 SB rings, record playoff stats and SB MVP would trigger such a debate but his case is certainly very unique
Edelman stirs debate but people forget that another Patriot receiver, Deion Branch also won a SB MVP and two championships, with four TDs and nearly 1000 yrds receiving in postseason.
He had more regular season TDs than Edelman as well.
Its interesting that Joe Flacco has never had a PB/AP nomination as well desite over 105 wins counting postseason and a championship …
Other notable players without any accolades are …
Mark Van Eagan
LeGarrette Blount
Antowain Smith
Reggie Bush
Ted Brown
Craig Morton
Eddie Kennison
Willie Gault
Brent Perriman
Darrell Jackson
And thats just offense !
How about defensively brian
Glad you asked Robert …
Defensive players with no PB/AP nominations
Dave Edwards
Larry Morris
Doug Buffone
Stan White
Wally Hilgenberg
AJ Hawk
Darrin Smith
Randall Godfrey
Vince Costello
Lonnie Warwick
Gary Reasons
Michael Barrow
David Harris
Dwaine Board
George Martin
Carl Hairston
Reggie Williams
These are defensive backs with no PB/AP nominations
Ray Crockett
Mark Collins
Greg Jackson
Terrell Buckley
Michael Downs
Bill Simpson
Brig Owens
Mike Bass
Overrall, a lot of big names … especially Larry Morris
Defensive Backs with no PB/AP Nominations
Ray Crockett
Mark Collins
Greg Jackson
Terrell Buckley
Michael Downs
Dennis Thurman
Bill Simpson
Brig Owens
Mike Bass
Phone playing tricks on me …
Another defensive player without accolades was Marvin Jones of the Jets who changed NFL history by knocking out Drew Bledsoe in an early 2001 game, opening the door for Tom Brady to start … With his salary, had Bledsoe stayed healthy, would Brady had ever played or started a game ?
Brian, that was Mo Lewis who knocked out Bledsoe.
Youre right Bill …
I thought it was Jones. Lewis had a heralded career as well. I remember Jones and later, Harris having good years for the Jets as well.
How does one go about identifying players without accolades? Seems like it could be an endless list of good players with some name recognition, maybe a notable single play in one game?
Paul, I mostly went by Pro Football-reference.com, which lists AP All-pro and pro-bowl … I have no idea about all-conference, though some of these players may have gotten that recognition ?
Alex Smith retired today. Good career despite no postseason success … some think HOVG but I am not sure unless you cant his running ability …
Count … misspell
Count … missspell
Nice career for Alex Smith after a bad start in a bad situation in San Fran.
Brian I guess what I mean is how does one pick a player who had no accolades- what “qualifies “ them for such a list – seems like it could be endless
Oh, its a subjective list, without a doubt but thats why I listed some players because as “examples” it just shows that many players had outstanding careers but dont have the support or accolades to even get a sniff of the HOF … To be honest, I was surprised that these players never even went to a Pro Bowl ?
Larry Morris ? Are you kidding me ?
I was just curious not intended to be critical
Its no problem Paul … You know I like discussion, debate and argument. We have spirited discussion that I dont encounter much on other sites …
Even the PFRA site doesnt have as much discussion and debate as I thought but I am new and havent come close to covering all their topics over the years …
Now Brian, I was watching Scott and Anderson back in the day albeit my memory is very fuzzy. Haha And admittedly when I was 9 years old in 1972 I was a little more interested in the Offense. :)
I read or heard one time that Jake Scott was the one with a nasty streak that gave the Dolphin’s D their juice. I assumed he leveled big hits but to be honest I can’t recall exactly. I think I remember him sticking his nose into a lot of piles in the middle, I actually thought Anderson was a bit of a ball hawk. I don’t know that whole Dolphin’s D was so opportunistic. I remember so many times Teams would move the ball from the 30-30 and Anderson or Scott or someone would come up with the big play. That’s why they said they bent but didn’t break and got the finesse label . I always kind of thought that was crap. lol That was lazy journalism. They had lots of tough guys. I know Dick Anderson was a good tackler. Maybe I need to watch some of that film. LOL
I believe when Scott played with a broken wrist versus the Cowboys in the Super Bowl it did great damage to the Dolphins chances though Miami probably had no chance against the Dallas D that day.
I’m not sure about Scott being such a center fielder like like we typically think now because a lot of teams still wanted to run the ball. Don’t get me wrong they passed the ball too but most didn’t do very well as I recall. I actually don’t remember Offense being that great. lol Not saying he wasn’t a ball hawk for his day.
I sure don’t remember too many good QB’s back in the early 70’s. Most Teams wanted to do what Miami perfected but none did very well.
Back around 2008, through ESPN the magazine, I found out about a website called Oldtimessports.net where collectors of old and new broadcast football games would trade games with other NFL fans. The NFL of course tried to lay the hammer down on selling of 30-40 year old copyrighted games but the site convinced them that sales werent happening, only trades or swaps between games. Since viewers could watch and record the game free, this was okay and then actual employees of the three networks began circulating games for trade as well, so I basically traded blank discs or cheap gift cards for games that I truly wanted. I have collected over 400 football games now but always look for games that every collector tries to find from vaults, private collections or film/video warehouses …
With so many older NFL fans, these network games were copied and kept but its just a matter of finding them because the networks never really realized how big the game was going to become and swiped or erased the videotapes !!!
The Holy Grail Of Games For NFL Fans to Collect Either CBS or NBC
1966 and 1967 NFL Championship games
GB vs Dallas
1966/67 SB 1 GB vs KC … It is out there but the NFL wont pay for re-release of the copy and the private collector wont release it to fans/collectors yet …
1969 NFL Playoff Minn vs LA Rams … one of the best games of the 1960s that fans want to find …
1970 AFC Championship Balt vs Oak
People want the 69 AFL championship as well between Oak and KC but hasnt turned up yet.
1971 AFC Playoff KC vs Miami … along with the 1974 Oak/Mia “Sea of hands game” the most sought after game for broadcast collectors …
1972 NFC Playoff Dall vs SF … CBS
1972 AFC Playoff Oak vs Pitts … Emaculate Reception/Deception … both games on the same day !
1972 AFC Championship Pitts vs Miami
1974 AFC Playoff Oak vs Mia … many people feel this was the greatest game in NFL history
1976 AFC Playoff Oak vs NE … many Raiders fans want this game, while Patriot fans are still angered by it because the Patriots could have won it all
1977 Reg Sea Chic vs Minn … Walter Payton rushes for 275 yards, a record that stood till 2002 ? when Corey Dillon broke it. I have the record game by Adrian Peterson, who still wants a good team to sign him.
Interesting! Brain! I became a Dolphins fanatic after the longest game. Up I would catch a few Oiler’s games. Not Division was nothing to get excited about. LOL
That same 1971 Playoff. I was a little kid from Texas surrounded by Minnesota Viking fans only a few miles from Bloomington. Hey Paul. I actually rooted for the Cowboys!! First and last time Hahaha Did that ever turn out to be a mistake. :) I bet the Dolphins could of beaten the Vikings in the SB. lol Come to think I remember Charlie Waters getting killed by WR Harold Jackson on bombs all day and I wasn’t a Cowboy fan. I don’t know why not I always rooted against them living in Austin?? I remember rooting for the St.Louis Cardinals against them. I just didn’t gravitate to the star. lol Living in Austin the Texas Longhorns were rock star popular.
That “sea of hands” game tore me up as a little kid. :( I don’t think I ever took a NFL loss as hard. That was a sad end a really great Team but it a what GREAT game!! Curt Gowdy did that game. I loved his voice. He did baseball great too!! Why don’t we have great voices of character like him anymore?
Jim Nance is a real pro. I never have liked Joe Buck but I liked his Daddy and Aikman turned out better than I thought he would. I thought Dan Dierdorf was good but a lot of folks didn’t like him . Dan Fouts in pretty good. Pat Summerall was probably the best ever IMO. Al Micheals is OK.
Cris Collingworth has turned put top notch. Not crazy about his voice.. lol I’ll say something blasphemous,, I never could stand Vin Scully. lol That voice!! Awful for football! Dick Enberg OK and Merlin Olsen was good. I couldn’t stand Howard Cosell but Frank Gifford was good until he started making so many mistakes.
I thought the Colts vs Raiders 37-31 long playoff game was a pretty great one too even though I wasn’t into either team.
That 1980 Raiders Team was probably one of my favorites of all-time. I’n not sure if there ever was a better story? I never did hate the Raiders except in the Sea of Hands game. The Steelers were another story unless they played the Cowboys. lol
I liked the 1977 Denver Broncos Team too. They were fun to watch until they ran they ran into the Cowboys. LOL!!!!!!! No one had a chance versus that Cowboy Team that day!! Seems like the Cowboys won two of the more dominating SB’s up to the point. Well Miami’s Viking beat down up there. No one was beating the, that day either. That Team was awesome powerful that year way better than the Undefeated team. Too bad the SB was played at Rice Stadium. Gimme a break. lol .
Ya that New England loss to the Raiders felt like one of the bigger robberies. I wasn’t crying for them though as a Dolphin fan. :)
Thanks TonyP …
As you have gathered, most of my game collection is or started out being postseason games. There are many great players from Sept till Jan but who will step up from Jan to Feb in postseason ?
That success can usually tip the scales on determining a HOF career, though the best TEAMS win championships.
I just hope I can collect at least some of those great postseason games that are hard to find.
Been waiting three years for that collector to let go of his copy of Super Bowl 1 … Would love to see all those HOF players on videotape …
That 1971 NFC playoff where Dallas beat Minn is another game I want to collect.
Everybody remembers the catch by Pearson to win the Hail Mary playoff game but nobody remembers the great Pearson leap-catch- and forceout on 4th down just two plays prior unless they saw or have that particular game.
I remember when the NFL Network came out and did their Classic Super Bowl Games series. I recorded everything but when I got a buzz and watched Super Bowl III for the first time, it was like a dream to watch something that long ago on videotape. I must have watched that game recording on Tivo 10 times that week alone.
I have a bunch of VCR tapes of games, game highlights, season highlights and others. Would have to look at what I have but they cover Cowboys in 1960s 1970s and 1990s and not so sure I have many complete classic games. Likely will come a day soon when I will need to look at converting into digital format (have already done for family home videos)
I still have a sentimental attachment to my VHS games and havent gotten rid of alot of them though I have the games on DVD now.
Frankly, some of my tapes look better …
I would like to see the Cleveland vs Miami Playoff game for the Perfect Season. I remember being concerned and Mercury Morris coming through in the clutch with his speed to the outside. Good thing Phipps wasn’t a very good QB.
Good work Brian on lists! Tough lists to come up with. Looking at your lists of good players without accolades I can’t any of them for certain don’t deserve but without to much study the ones I can get aboard on are in order:
Terrell Buckley – never an accolade really surprises me!
Mark Van Eeghen – a heck of a FB and deserving!!
Dennis Thurman
John Kolb
Marques Colston
Carl Hairston
Simon Fletcher
Plaxico Burress
Jim Plunkett
Julian Edelman
Lonnie Warrick
Doug Buffone
Stan White
Jumpy Geathers
George Martin
Reggie Williams
Joey Galloway
Reggie Bush
DB’s accolades in the 1970’s were pretty sewn up by great HOFers
You missed two Brian! haha LDT of Miami Dolphins who Bob Keuchenberg said was MVP of SB VII with 18 tackles- Manny Fernandez. A very good player!
And even better was Vern Den Herder. He easily could of received accolades in the mid-late 1970’s. He had HOVG career bordering on HOF IMO. He’d be at the top of the list I made. I;m sure we’ve missed some
https://www.thephinsider.com/2012/5/12/3015634/miami-dolphins-all-time-top-100-players-12-vern-den-herder
OF the Dolphins most HOF deserving I have ranked Keuchenberg, Scott, Anderson, Bob Baumhower, Mark Clayton, Nat Moore, Mark Duper, Bill Stanfill and Vern Den Herder.
Maybe that would be interesting to go Team by Team? I wonder who has the most serious candidates? Also I wonder who is the lowest Draft pick to go into the HOF say in the last 20 years or from modern era players? That’s a real trivia stumper. lol Tom Brady is 6 . Hahaha Do ya’ll think it’s an advantage going high in the Draft or disadvantage or nothing at all as far as edge getting into the HOF?
I like Curtis Johnson and Tim Foley but can’t say which if either deserved accolade. No Name D was pretty well known by 1972. lol I’d like to give’em all accolades. Bob Heinz, Doug Swift, Mike Kolen and 53 Defense namesake Bob Matheson a key situational player. But they only recognized Buoniconti , Scott and Anderson and Stanfill. Hard to believe only one player off that D is in the HOF.
Sorry for my Dolphin indulgence I’m sure it get’s old after a couple posts . Sometimes I get stuck in 1972. :)
I almost listed Den Herder and Fernandez but theyre alot of players that fans would think made the pro bowl.
Was looking at Al Toon highlights again and I remember thinking when Randy Moss came out, how much he reminded me of Toon, though faster. Had O’Brien continued to develop and never leave the Jets or had Toon never got his concussions playing with other QBs, would he have made the HOF ?
Another talented, short-career player …
Agree with Toon being an amazing talent. He had a really good career but in a different place maybe HOF.
I just remember watching Den Herder. Has wasn’t a beast but very productive and a mainstay on the line. He was the best player on their Defense for several years. He must of been unlucky with the competition to not earn an accolade.
Hey Brian- I also am waiting for the release of Super Bowl 1, I also heard someone has a copy of SB II that they won’t release. I have all of the other SB’s on DVD. I love watching the SB’s from the 70’s and early 80’s. I miss the way football was played then. Someone was mentioning all-time voice for games. I loved Bob Trumpy and Merlin Olsen and DicK Enberg. They were all NBC guys. I also enjoyed Dan Dierdorf and was shocked to find out that many people didin’t. Of course CBS had Madden and Summerall and they were very good until Summerall started making a lot of mistakes like Gifford.
Of today’s voices, I enjoy Fouts and Simms and and I used like like Bryant Gumball and Brent Musberger as a host. I can’t stand current Monday night crew.
Wow Bill …
Havent heard about SB II but I would take it.
I wish I had every game NBC Color Al DeRogatis and CBS George Allen ever did. My two favorites …
Bill, I couldn’t tell you who does MNF they change so much .lol Monday Night Football seemed magical the way presented it in the 1970’s. Of course everyone was hungry to watch not like today with saturation. Trumpy was a really good TE too.
I liked George Allen too! So smart and unique voice. I’d put him there with Woody Hayes as a fascinating character. I liked listening to him do a few college games. The college games has had many better announcers than NFL IMO. Oh, I used to like Don Criqui the longest tenured announcer in history for 47 years. Yes I looked up. lol Trumpy was his side kick. Hank Stram and Jack Buck were great on radio.
I forgot about Criqui… He was awesome with Trumpy. George Allen was also very good. I used to not like Soloman Wilcots or Daryl Johnston but they have both improved at their craft a great deal. Who was the the worst? I was not a great fan of Tom Brookshier or Howard Cosell, although some might think that is blasphemy!.
Article for Brian
Super Bowl II Original Broadcast: The NFL Isn’t Letting You See That, Either
After NFL Productions belatedly figured out last month that people didn’t want to watch a reconstruction of Super Bowl I with an uninformed commentary track — although it took an overwhelmingly negative response on social media to help them reach that conclusion — an enjoyable combination of NFL Films footage and the late Jim Simpson’s original play by play for NBC radio aired on NFL Network on Jan. 22.
But, for football-history buffs who’d grown up looking forward to the Super Bowl highlights marathon every January (first on ESPN, now on NFL Network), and who had seen a lot of the NFL Films footage of the Green Bay Packers and Kansas City Chiefs before, the real prize of the Jan. 22 telecast was two pieces of videotape from the original broadcast: Ray Scott announcing the starting lineups — complete with the individual players running toward an on-field camera, in the style of the time — and Pat Summerall’s postgame interview with NFL Commissioner Pete Rozelle.
Those two segments were the longest pieces of the original broadcast seen on television since 1967. As was addressed on the telecast, no network master tape of the game exists. A fan’s home recording of much of the game exists, but it sits in legal limbo as the league will neither buy the home recording from the tape’s owner, Troy Haupt, nor allow it to be shown to the general public.
There’s a tape of Super Bowl II out there, too. The NFL isn’t letting you see that, either. Although it came close to letting you buy it on DVD in 2008.
On April 2, 2008, with Packers fans pondering life without Brett Favre at quarterback in the wake of his (initial) retirement announcement the previous month, the Packers issued a news release inviting fans to cast votes from a list of 20 games to determine the original broadcasts to be included on the “10 Greatest Games: Packers” DVD set. The ballot was heavy with Favre Era games, with only three of the 20 on offer having been played before Favre’s arrival in Green Bay in 1992.
But one of those three was Super Bowl II.
I was thrilled at the prospect of not only seeing footage from Vince Lombardi’s last game as Packers coach but also having my own copy on DVD. I try to not think about how much I would have been willing to pay for that.
I didn’t have to think too long about it back in 2008, though. On May 2 of that year, another news release on Packers.com announced the list of 10 games. It included the following passage:
Note: Super Bowl II was in the running as a top 10 selection, but after voting began, Warner Bros. was informed that the complete broadcast of that game is not available, and therefore can’t be included in the DVD. For the same reason, other significant games, such as Super Bowl I and the Ice Bowl, were not included in the voting.
So a tape with some portion of Super Bowl II exists, presumably in the possession of the NFL or CBS, which broadcast the game. But it’s being kept locked away, for the enjoyment of no one.
I suppose there’s a possibility that some piece of the Super Bowl II broadcast — which, to my knowledge, has not been seen since Jan. 14, 1968 — could turn up on CBS’ pregame show on Sunday in some kind of history-of-the-game montage. I’m not holding my breath.
With the League having largely gotten out of the business of home video — the only new releases since early in the 2013 season have been the Super Bowl champion highlight discs for the 2013 Seahawks and 2014 Patriots — the main avenue for the history buff to see the historical footage is down to one lane. NFL Network’s use of NFL Films content for historical purposes, outside of the “A Football Life” series, has become noticeably lighter in recent years.
The NFL has a presence on YouTube. But after decades of being miles ahead of Major League Baseball with regard to promotion — thanks to the groundbreaking work of NFL Films founder Ed Sabol and his son Steve — MLB is beating the NFL on that social media front.
Having correctly deduced that YouTube users love 1-minute clips, MLB has populated its YouTube channel with hundreds, if not thousands, of such clips from original broadcasts. Want to see Hank Aaron break Babe Ruth’s record with home run No. 715? MLB has it ready to go for you right here. Want to see Dave McNally become the first pitcher to hit a grand slam in a World Series game? Here you go.
There’s nothing stopping the NFL from turning its YouTube channel into that kind of fan-friendly destination. Maybe someday, we’ll go there and be able to watch and listen as Ray Scott describes Boyd Dowler’s 62-yard touchdown reception in Super Bowl II.
Hey, maybe by then they’ll have cut a deal with Troy Haupt and we can see a bit more of Super Bowl I.
Tom Farley is a journalist in Racine, Wis.
Posted by Tom Farley at 10:50 AM
Thanks Bill …
Deep down I feel NFL Films has copies of MANY broadcasted games but just hasnt made them available yet …
I felt Dick Stockton was better doing basketball games than football but he was okay. Cosell was good and bad, like Joe Buck, though I liked Jack Buck alot.
I wasnt a big fan of Don Meredith and couldnt stand Tim Brandt. Olsen was up and down too and Bob Griese was bland to me.
Dierdorf was good but reminded of Mel Blanc/Sylvester the cat … I liked Jack Whitaker and Paul Christman as well. Scully, Stram, Brodie and others were good as well. Todays guys … not so much …
Bill wants the worst. lol I didn’t like Vin Skully doing NFL from 1975-1982. His last game call was the catch by Dwight Clark. Other than him and many because of his voice (just not a football voice) I can’t think of too many awful play by play. There have been some really bad color guys. How about OJ Simpson on MNF as the worst? Augh! And there have been a few like Jason Witten and Booger McFarland. Actually I did hear this year’s crew and not bad with Steve Levy, Louis Riddeck and Brian Griese.
Here’s a website of all the NFL announcing teams through history. Pretty interesting! There’s no Fox though. I liked Charlie Jones. How about making a top five list of play by play and color guys for comparison? lol I see Dan Hicks, he does golf great!!
https://americanfootballdatabase.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_NFL_on_NBC_commentator_pairings
I’ll start but leaving out the last 20 years
Play by play – Curt Gowdy, Frank Gifford, Pat Summerall, Charlie Jones and Al Michaels
Color Guys – Don Meredith, Merlin Olsen, John Madden, John Brodie and Paul Maguire. I don’t remember Al DeRogatis my bad.
Al DeRogatis did color for tv and radio for NBC in the late 60s-70s till 1975 …
He didnt talk alot but had great analysis, diagnosing and predicting plays fifty years before Tony Romo. If you ever watch the replay of SB 7 again TonyP, theres a moment where Al tells the audience to watch for Miami wide receiver Howard Twilley and his ability to give DBs problems and like boom, two plays later, he beats Pat Fisher for a TD.
I first saw, heard him doing SB III and have tried to collect any broadcasts or radio I could find.
Haha, I think I know why you didnt like Simpson, TonyP … He called I think, either the 1985 and 86 Pro Bowl with Michaels for ABC. Namath might have been there as well. Simpson talked about how wide receivers were getting smaller and talked about Mark Duper and Clayton specifically. Simpson said when he played for Buffalo, they had a CB named Robert James, who was so physical, he wouldnt let some receivers off the line. Simpson said, if the rules hadnt been changed, or if Clayton or Duper played during the 70s, a corner like James or Blount wouldnt have let them get off the line of scrimmage. That blew my mind when he said it, so I looked up James and sure enough, had he not gotten injured six years into his career, might have had a great career …
Who are the best senior or seniors from the following teams: Packers jets cardinals bears lions browns
Best Seniors …
Packers … Lewellen
Dilweg
Sharpe
Gillingham
Dale
Jets/Titans … Powell
Talamini (Oilers)
Grantham
Gastineau/Klecko
Walker (personal)
Cardinals … Anderson
Gray
DeMarco (Dolphins)
Woodson (49ers)
Young
Bears … Fortunato
Casares
Marshall
Morris
Kavanaugh/Hill
Lions … Brown
Emerson
Baker
Sims (personal)
Moore (slower but similiar to Johnson)
Browns … Shafrath
Barnes (Giants)
Lahr
Collins
Smith
Most of those are off the top of my head, The Greatest but theyre others I might have missed …
Packers
1. Sterling Sharpe WR
2. Ron kramer TE
3. Boyd Dowler WR
4. Gale Gillingham G
5. Bill Forrester LB
6. Ezra johnson DE
Jets
1. Joe Klecko DT
2. Marvin Powell T
3. Larry Grantham LB
4. Mark Gastineau DE
5. Gerry Philbin DE
Cardinals
1. Ottis Anderson RB
2. Tom Banks C
3. Bob DeMarco C
4. Jim Hart QB
5. Ken Gray G
6. Jim Bakkan K
Lions
1. Roger Brown DT
2. Al “Bubba” Baker DE
3. Don Doll S
Browns
1. Dick Schafrath G
2. Clay Matthews LB
3. Bob Gain DT
4. Jerry Sherk DT
I forgot Bears
1. Rick Caseras FB
2. Jay Hilgenberg C
3. Dick Barwegan G
4. Wilber Marshall LB
5. Joe Fortunato LB
6. Steve McMichael DT
Anyone want to do that same exercise for Dolphins and Bengals?
Good list Bill. I’d add WR Mel Gray 1/4 for Cardinals list.
Here’s the list I had for the Dolphins. OF the Dolphins most HOF deserving I have ranked Zach Thomas, Keuchenberg, Scott, Anderson, Bob Baumhower, Mark Clayton, Nat Moore, Mark Duper, Bill Stanfill and Vern Den Herder.
Bengals off top of my head Corey Dillon, Bill Bergy, Ken Anderson, Isaac Curtis, James Brooks Ken Riley and Tim Krumrie.
Do this for all franchises as of 1990 and you end up with 150+ names !!! Far more then will ever be considered and you end up with names that really have no reason to be included.
My approach is to prepare (and update) list of 50 senior candidates, and those all have decent qualifications with all pro and pro bowl (multiple selections)
I skipped of Brian’s list. That’s good too!! I guess I included some non seniors.
ya i agree Paul. It’s nice to think these players we remember fondly have a shot but unlikely most get serious consideration. . Some Teams are pretty well picked over like the Packers, Steelers and Bears. How about picking top two players from each Team?
Good list Bill …
Yeah, Hilgenberg and McMichael were considered for my Bear list as well.
I chose Art Powell over Marvin Powell for the Jets.
I chose Dale over Dowler but Kramer and Forrester were close for the Pack as well but Lewellen and Dilweg need to make the Hall.
Dolphins …
Anderson
Thomas
Kooch
Scott
Bengals …
Parrish
Anderson
Riley
Bergey
Anderson/Krumrie
Sorry, Willie Anderson for Bengals is modern.
Top Two Seniors
Dallas Cowboys = Chuck Howley and Harvey Martin
Miami Dolphins = Bob Keuchenberg and Jake Scott
Oakland Raiders = Cliff Branch and Lester Hayes
Cinncinati Bengals – Lemar Parrish and Bill Bergey
Chicago Bears = Jay Hilgenberg and Steve McMichael
St. Louis Cardinals = Jim Bakken and Ottis Anderson
New York Jets = Larry Grantham and Mark Gastineau
Los Angeles Rams = Maxie Baughan and isiah Roberston
Washington Redskins = Mark Mosley and Gary Clark
Denver Broncos = Randy Gradishar and Louis Wright
Good list TonyP but Moseley and Bakken ?
They can wait awhile … haha
Once again, Rodgers dominates offseason news, guess he learned more from Favre than he will care to admit. Some rumors have him joining the Broncos after June 1st but the Packers would be crazy to let him go. I think he will retire a Packer but it wouldnt be this year … If he did, we could have two first ballot HOF QBs in 2026. I doubt he will play more than three more seasons …
OK here is my 2 a team
1. Bills- Tom Sestack, Mike Stratton
2. Dolphins- Bob Kuenchenberg, Jake Scott
3. Jets- Joe klecko, Marvin Powell
4. Patriots- Gino Cappalletti, Houston Antwine
5. Ravens- None
6. Bengals- Ken Anderson, Lemar Parrish
7. Browns- Dick Schafrath, Clay Matthews
8. Steelers- L.C. Greenwood, Andy Russell
9. Texans- None
10. Colts- Mike Curtis, Bobby Boyd
11. Jaguars- None
12. Titans/Oilers- Charley Hennigan, George Webster
13. Broncos- Randy Gradishar, Karl Mecklinburg
14. Chiefs- Jim Tyrer, Otis Taylor
15. Chargers- Walt Sweeney, Earl Faison
16. Raiders- Cliff Branch, Lester Hayes
17. Cowboys- Chuck Howley, Harvey Martin
18. Giants- Del Shofner, Jimmy Patton
19. Eagles- Maxie Baughan, Pete Retzlaff
20. Redskins- Joe Jacoby, Gene Brito
21. Bears- Rick Caseras, Jay Hilgenberg
22. Lions- Roger Brown, Al Baker
23. Packers- Sterling Sharpe, Ron Kramer
24. Vikings- Chuck Foreman, Jim Marshall
25. Falcons- Tommy Nobis, George Kunz
26. Panthers- None
27. Saints- None
28. Buccaneers- None
29. Cardinals- OJ Anderson, Tom Banks
30. Rams- Eddie Meador, Isiah Robertson
31. 49ers- Roger Craig, Billy Wilson
32 Seahawks- None
Of course many of these teams have more than 2 and some of the more recent franchises have none. I also did not include any Pre WWII players as I just don’t know enough about them.
good list
I couldn’t think of anyone else the HOF would take serious especially for the Cards. I guess Joe Jacoby would be the popular pick for the Redskins. I don’t think he’s a HOFer with games he missed and as LT for Joe Theismann I can’t say how well he protected him. I’m sure he must of been pretty great for 4 or 5 years but must of been a reason he was moved to RT at prime age of 30. I’d go with Tony Boselli before Jacoby and I don’t support Boselli though it’s close. Jacoby’s career feels a little like Marvin Powell’s except Jacoby played more in the limelight. Actually a player I believe who’s just as deserving of praise is DT Dave Butz with 500 tackles and 59.5 sacks. He was a hell of a player.
I think Mark Moseley was the best Kicker for his time. I also remember he set the record for most FG’s made in a row beating Garo Yepremian record. I doubt we’ll ever see a Kicker earn League MVP again. I think Dexter Manley could of been a HOF player if he didn’t get side tracked. Charles Mann was really good.
I thought Rodgers to Denver was a done deal. Hard to imagine he stays if he is so unhappy. It’s going to screw up the Team. I thought he was happy in GB. I wonder what changed? Maybe his ego losing to Brady and being tired of losing in the Playoffs makes him want new scenery. Or could be the usual “about the money”. lol I don’t think he’s like Tom Brady. :)
Jacoby moved to RT after the Redskins acquired Jim Lachey. It wasn’t because he was declining but more to do with he could play both positions equally well while Lachey was a pure LT.
Rodgers is unhappy since the Jordan Love draft pick. In the past 10 years Green Bay have drafted a defensive player in 9 of them with Love being the only offensive player.
I think he’s just fed up at the lack of investment in the offense. They basically ignored WRs last year in one of the strongest WR classes ever for a raw backup QB. Trading up for Justin Jefferson instead of Love would’ve been much wiser.
Watching Brady throw 3 INTs in the NFCCG must’ve been frustrating too knowing there is no way he has that luxury with Green Bay.
Rodgers is simply not happy with the organization and GM who drafted his replacement with plan to move on from him in 2022, asking him to continue to led team that in his view is not working to improve and compete for SB. They won’t extend or rework his current contract to give more monies now since he sees 2021 as his last season with GB even though he was MVP last season.
BoKnows, I take your word for it on Jacoby. It was typical smart personnel move by Redskins to trade Jay Schrader for Lachey. I wonder if that was the Raiders best player? Why would the Raiders trade for a QB than trade All Pro LT? They must of had a good one in the wings? Actually the Raiders only had Lachey for one game or a cup of coffee. LOL
Here’s a trivia question, what Team that’s been around since before the 1970’s has has the fewest HOF players play for it with only 2 and name them? It’s actually not hard.
The Texans and Jacksonville have never had a HOF player on their Team and I think the Panthers have had 2 being Reggie White and Kevin Greene.
I’d be interested how many of these men where GM’s if anyone knows? Also can someone come up with a list of HOF worthy GM’s? It seems like there must be other worthy ones. The GM for the Rams of the 60’s and 70’s must of been really good. It doesn’t seem like a Team would have to win a Super Bowl for a GM to be recognized as great. Thanks.
Bobby Beathard (2018)
Bert Bell (1963)
Charles Bidwill (1967)
Joe Carr (1963)
Al Davis (1992)
Edward J. DeBartolo, Jr. (2016)
Jim Finks (1995)
George Halas (1963)
Lamar Hunt (1972)
Jerry Jones (2017)
Curly Lambeau (1963)
Tim Mara (1963)
Wellington Mara (1997)
George Preston Marshall (1963)
Bill Polian (2015)
Hugh “Shorty” Ray (1966)
Dan Reeves (1967)
Art Rooney (1964)
Dan Rooney (2000)
Tex Schramm (1991)
Ralph Wilson, Jr. (2009)
Ron Wolf (2015)
That is a good list Bill. I see you went with some of the older players. I sure wish I knew the mindset of the Senior Committee members. Maybe Paul told me and I forgot. Do they have a list of players they target for interest and whittle it down? I thought they rotated to only two members each time doing the selection? They must keep track of players they research and dismiss each year. I want that list!! LOL Maybe they wrote off people like Harold Jackson and Bill Bergey? I’d like to see film of Bergey. He was a beast for the Eagles. He must of been good for the Bengals too. He was good enough to get noticed for PB as a rookie. Did he get worse? lol
This is the best I can find on Bill Bergey. Must of been pretty good for the Eagles to give up two first round picks and a second for a player that wasn’t even a Pro Bowler. lol
https://duckduckgo.com/q=bill+bergey+nfl+films&t=chromentp&iax=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DY9yXTQkPZzw&ia=videos
my best redskins seniors are mark moseley jerry smith dave butz and yes Joe Jacoby and yes i would take jj over boselli
If I am not mistaken TonyP, according to Paul Brown’s book, he gave up Bergey because he knew he had signed a futuress contract to join the WFL. He should have just paid him to stay with the Bengals and try to win a championship but as I have pointed out on various football sites, Brown got rid of many talented players on his teams …
Redskin Seniors …
Jacoby
Brito
Clark/Smith
Brown
future … keyboard messin up
The nine members of the senior committees consider a long list of candidates each year, first round of mail in ballot voting selects 12 finalists. Neither of those lists are made public by Hall but names of finalists sometimes gets out. Then in late August a rotation of 5 committee meets to discuss and select finalist (plus two non voting advisors, typically PFHOFers, different each election). Finalists are likely similar list each year but finalists do not automatically carry over
A name that I never hear brought up is Jack Steadman. He was a General Manager and Vice president for the Chiefs for many, many years and was instrumental in bringing Chiefs to KC along with Lamar hunt.
Yes, Bergey was all about the money as he stated and would of jumped to WFL .
I’ll take a guess men in the HOF for their GM ability.
Jim Finks (1995)
Ron Wolf (2015)
Bobby Beathard (2018)
Bill Polian (2015)
Al Davis (1992)
Tex Schramm (1991)
I went back and saw that y’all had an excellent discussion on Senior selection committee process. Nothing more to be said. I don’t have issue with Drew Pearson now that he’s in HOF. He was a hell of a player. It’s the nature of things to compare who’s in and who isn’t and point out not seeming fair. I agree with Paul it’s not a good approach. That said I have no problem pointing out if I think a selection doesn’t quite make the grade like a Jimbo Covert for what I think a HOF player should be.
That GM list looks correct, 1/2 became PFHOFers as contributors as historically it has been hard for them to get elected let many are deserving, lets hope going forward we continue to see deserving GMs and scouts elected and less focus on owners.
RIP Howard Mudd 78, who passed away last month from being injured in a motorcycle accident. He was an excellent Right Guard in the 1960’s for the 49ers whose career ended prematurely due to a knee injury. Still he was a member of the All Decade Team and later an excellent OL Coach for the Colts.
Sorry Bill, not a fan of Jack Steadman …
Hank Stram knew he was good with numbers and team bookkeeping-finances but in his book, stated that Steadman didnt know anything about football or dealing with people …
Steadman I believe, was the one who decided to get rid of All-AFL back Abner Haynes because he led the protest of players that boycotted the 1964 AFL All-Star game in New Orleans. Now what precisely was Stram’s role in trading Haynes to Denver, I am not sure about but judging how Haynes reacted and kept the letter of criticism from management, I believe it was from Steadman.
Steadman of course convinced Lamar Hunt to fire Stram in 1974 and later, Marv Levy, who also criticized Steadman in HIS book. Levy also felt that Steadman was ignoring his draft and trade imputs …
With Steadman as GM, the Chiefs became a laughingstock and terrible fan draw to Arrowhead Stadium until he finally gave up his position in 1989 to Carl Peterson and Marty Schottenheimer, who immediately improved the club and brought fans back to Arrowhead …
I don’t know about Steadman but was wondering if he presided over a whole lot of mediocrity in the 70’s–80’s. I don’t know if what he did in the 60’s was enough? Seems like a GM needs to sustain success at one place like Tex Schramm or be successful at multiple places like Bill Poiian or Jim Finks. I guess an exception would be Ron Wolf with the Green Bay Packers with only 9 years as a GM. Steadman should of quit while he was ahead. LOL!
Ron Wolf was also a long time scout with the Raiders, helped build teams of 70s and early 80s there. So his Hall case was built on more than just the 9 years as GM of Packers. Agree that for a GM to get elected they will need long career of success with team(s) or also boosted by scouting career.
Some of the football team administrative types (GMs, scouts, personal directors) that I have heard mentioned as possible PFHOF contributors include Bucko Kilroy, Jack Vainisi, Carl Peterson, Carmen Policy, Don Klosterman, Ernie Accorsi, Ozzie Newsome. Seems like guys from 1970s to present are more well known and high profile, as don’t see others from 1960s and earlier when seems owners got more credit (and are already in PFHOF),
Wow, this year is flying by …
Will be interesting to see what will happen to Rodgers and Watson in the near future, though Rodgers will probably stay with the Packers. Speculation is, that Watson may join the Eagles if he isnt put on a suspension list but what if he possibly went to the Raiders in exchange for Carr ? You could have a failing set of brothers with the Texans ?
Also wondering if Alex Smith could change his mind and come back to the NFL ?
He felt the Washington Snyders totally disrespected his work ethic and wanting to get back into the starting lineup …
With the Patriots resigning Hoyer to possibly mentor rookie Jones on the McDaniels offense, Stidham or even Newton could be cut without a good training camp ?
Adam Vinatieri now eligible in 2025
I dont think Vinny would be first ballot but see him elected by 2030 … A great career
No special team player including kicker has been first ballot or even first year finalist – guessing Adam V gets elected within 3-5 yrs
I am excited about getting a chance to vote for the PFRA’s Hall Of Very Good Class of 2021. I hope others on this site are members and voting as well …
I think you get up to five choices but I am still waiting for my paid membership to be approved and put in motion. I am not secretive and these will be my first official nominees … I hope others can share their choices …
George Andrie
Tony Latone
Mark Bavaro
Carroll Dale
Cedrick Hardman
Looks like Julio Jones is now a Titan …
Can he help them win a championship or will the defense continue to struggle ?
A good pass rush will make or break this season but the offense has to get it done in the playoffs. Once he crossed the 2000 yard barrier, Henry ran out of gas in the playoff game. Can Tannehill take them all the way ?
Working on text for a new post topic for class of 2022 – hopefully added here soon
Hello Brian- I became a member last year. Here would be my 5 choices
1. Mike Kenn T
2. Clay Matthews LB
3. Steve McMichael DT
4. Stanley Morgan WR
5. Mike Stratton LB
Thanks Bill …
For some reason, having problems with this site on my phone and email notices.
Yeah, looks like you got three out of five and me two out of five reaching the finalists stage.
Though I wont announce them on the PFRA site yet, I am announcing my ten choices out of the 20 Finalists because I like this site so much … haha
My Top 10 HOVG Finalists In deserving order
Tony Latone
Mark Bavaro
Mike Kenn
Russ Washington
Clark Shaunessy
Abe Woodson
Matt Blair
John Niland
Stanley Morgan
Grady Alderman
I wanted to add Otto Schnellbacher but a 3-5 year career is not enough to add to any HOVG/HOF Class … If voters added every short career player, there would be over 350 players selected. I feel players with longer careers deserve that …
Shaughnessy … my bad.
Andy and Tony : emailed you content for a new class of 2022 topic
Hey everyone, new post for Class of 2022 is here: https://www.zoneblitz.com/2021/06/14/deciding-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame-class-of-2022/