With the announcement of the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2022 fast approaching on NFL Honors Show, Thursday February 10th, its time to lock in your predictions. For a reminder here is the list of modern candidate finalists that the selection committee voted on during their 7 hour virtual meeting on January 18th:
DE Jared Allen
OT Willie Anderson
DB Ronde Barber
OT Tony Boselli
S LeRoy Butler
PR/KR Devin Hester
WR Torry Holt
WR Andre Johnson
LB Sam Mills
DT Richard Seymour
LB Zack Thomas
LB DeMarcus Ware
WR Reggie Wayne
LB Patrick Willis
DT Bryant Young
We should also note that the committee has also already voted on the separate cases for the senior finalist WR Cliff Branch, coach Dick Vermeil and contributor Art McNally-as per usual we can assume all were elected. So for our predictions we will just consider the aforementioned 15 modern candidates. To save time and effort a few of us here at ZoneBlitz.com will make our predictions below without lengthy justifications. For more detailed discussion and debate on these candidates review our longer thread of posts on the Deciding the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2022 topic. Please feel free to comment on ours or make your own, but be sure to do so before the official announcement Thursday February 10th, 9-11pm EST on the NFL Honors Show. Anyone who correctly predicts all five can declare themselves “The Greatest” for the next year when posting here on ZoneBlitz.com.
Paul: Boselli, Butler, Seymour, Thomas, Ware – I am going with four final 10 left over from the 2021 election, in fact both Boselli and Seymour have been in final ten multiple times indicating they have support of the voters and appear primed for election this year. Butler is another candidate with repeated appearances in the final 15 and as voters have addressed the safety position in recent years, he is the next one up. That leaves my prediction of the one and only 2022 first ballot candidate to be elected, Dallas Cowboys and Denver Broncos LB DeMarcus Ware. Although his first ballot case may not be as strong as others in recent elections, it does compare favorably to Jason Taylor who was first ballot in class of 2017. Some voters have recently become more vocal and critical about the number of first ballot candidates elected, but 2012 is last class without one, so in my view Ware will be that guy this class. It’s really hard to get all five slots predicted correctly as 49 voters usually results in at least one surprise. I am not taking this into consideration with my predictions, but the one of the WRs Holt or Wayne could slip in replacing either Thomas or Ware, if voters collectively decide to address the rapid growing logjam at WR position.
Tony: Boselli, Holt, Seymour, Ware, Wayne – I agree that four of the final 10 from last year make it, but I’ll go off the beaten path and put two WR in. I’d like to see Jared Allen make it, but I think Ware gets the slight edge there and makes it first ballot — although in many years, I think he would be waiting for a season or two as well.
Andy: I think this is going to be the weakest class enshrined in years. I think a lot of these guys are being considered as much because they played for a long time as that they were actually elite players. And I think there are enough guys at similar positions (Johnson, Wayne, Holt vs Willis, Mills, Ware, Thomas vs Anderson, Boselli, etc.) where there is a good chance guys cancel each other out and this ends up being the first class in years to not max out the available HOF spots. I think each of the non-modern era candidates get in. Branch, Vermeil and McNally get in. But this group of finalists stymies me. I like a lot of them. I don’t really love almost any of them. And I find it interesting that one of the guys Paul and Tony both like — Richard Seymour — is on my no list. At three AP First Team All Pro lists, I think he waits. I agree with them on Ware and Boselli. I’m going Holt over Wayne. I think both eventually get in, though I’m not sure either should be a lock. Both had one AP First Team award. One. There were plenty of Pro Bowls amongst them, but the Pro Bowl is such a bad a joke now that people are suggesting as an alternative the worst team in the AFC play the worst team in the NFC for the top pick in the draft. Anyway … I think Zach Thomas is a great story and a solid candidate. And I’m struggling to find a fifth that I am really blown away with. Forced, I’ll go Jared Allen, but he’s not a perfect candidate either.
Lock in your predictions in the comments below.
Loading ...
Shall we get started….. who is going to be next…
My predictions
Holt
Boselli
Ware
Thomas
Seymour
I would love Ware to make it first ballot but now is a great time to clear the queue …
Boselli
Butler
Seymour
Thomas
R Barber
If Holt is elected, look for a Rams victory on sunday.
If Anderson is elected, possibly a Bengals victory.
Haha … I know that sounds crazy but I have seen crazier things …
Thanks for the new post guys … On my mother’s birthday to boot …
Same as Paul:
Boselli
Butler
Seymour
Thomas
Ware
In order of my confidence:
Boselli
Seymour
Ware
Wayne (I prefer Holt, but Wayne’s postseason numbers will sway voters)
Mills (perhaps wishful thinking)
Love the idea of the first Jag and first Panther going in together.
Boselli Seymour Young Butler Barber
Forgot to add branch vermeil mcnally
Ware, Butler, Boselli, Seymour, Young
24 hrs
!. Ware
2. Boselli
3. Seymour
4. Butler
5. Hester
Bill: reading tea leaves and comments, your picks look highly likely.
rumors and reading tea leaves is popular today, but I would express caution. However I would say the one player who appears to have strongly likely election from recent social media hints/attention is Boselli. Hester may be a “popular” selection as prediction, but I would express caution reading too much on that as many including in those in media seem to see him as “lock” which is far from the case.
And remember of timing of official announcement, around 10p EDT this evening during NFL Honors Show (9-11p EDT ABC/ESPN)-quickly followed by social media news
All good thoughts/observations Paul. I agree that the hints are very strongly implying Boselli is in, which I’m very happy to see. He is one of those players that keep me strangely obsessed with this process long after Monk (my childhood hero) was elected…
No surprise, but Minneapolis news sources are reporting that Allen will not be elected tonight. His time will come.
Young Butler Seymour Mills Boselli McNally Branch Vermeil is your class of 2022 – officially
Class Of 2022 Boselli Branch Butler Mills Seymour Young McNally Vermeil
Shocking! but glad for Sam Mills and his family.
3/5 for me but suspect no one picked Young and few picked Mills
Mills got the last season push over Zach Thomas and Patrick Willis.
3/5 as like most I went with Boselli, Butler and Seymour as my bankers.
Congratulations Class Of 2022 !!
Wow … Mills and Young. John Turney called it.
Robert the Greatest Again …
Now that’s what I call clearing the queue … No first ballot pick !
6-10 were Barber, Ware, Thomas, Johnson, Hester
A Defensive Class … and two defensive tackles, though Seymour played DE as well.
Class Of 2023
Gradishar
Parker
Kraft
Thomas
Ware
Allen
R Barber
J Thomas
Good Call Flash80 …
Andre Johnson jumps ahead of Holt and Wayne. Barber’s chances next year might take a hit with Revis on the ballot.
Joe Thomas, Ware and Z.Thomas look to have the best chance in 2023. Revis or Barber for the fourth spot. A WR completes the Class .
Bo knows34 i doubt that a wr will get in the hof next year with the wr logjam
2023 early prediction – Thomas Revis Ware Thomas Johnson
Robert
They’re going to have to start clearing it at some point like they eventually did with Andre Reed. Cris Carter and Tim Brown.
I don’t see any new WR candidates until Larry Fitzgerald in 2026. I would be very surprised if we don’t see one elected before Larry is a 1st ballot choice.
Johnson, Hester and Ware jumping into the Top 10 in their first year of eligibility suggests they won’t have to wait very long.
Outside of Joe Thomas who do you think will be the next offensive player elected?
It’s not really that strong of a class, if you ask me. I know there weren’t many big first timers names, but still. I don’t get why DeMarcus Ware had to wait, never really understood the love for Bryant Young. Was Boselli really a stronger case than say, Richmond Webb?
I guess Seymour is the headliner since he played for New England’s dynasty?
I’m happiest about Branch being elected, which should’ve been before his passing.
I don’t think Revis or Freeney will be first ballot selections but we will see.
They may put in a receiver before Fitzgerald but alot of outstanding defensive talent is on the way and with Ryan and Rodgers retiring soon, QBs will be the big story about who gets in or not. After Joe Thomas, Anderson should be the next offensive lineman get voted in and Bengal, unless Riley emerges as a senior candidate but I am hoping it will be Howley.
I still think an owner like Kraft is inevitable but hoping a talent evaluator like Kotal or Vainisi is the next contributor …
There was some debate about Bryant Young on other sites. Some thought his accolades were too light, though he was All-Decade and DROY, CBPOY but others liked Michael Dean Perry or Kevin Williams more. His high sack numbers and campaigning this year tipped the scales.
Who do you think will be among the 5 (at least) new finalists next year? Joe Thomas. Revis, Freeney and Darren Woodson look likely, plus one other
Good call BoKnows34 … Williams or Wilfork, hoping Nalen or Wisniewski …
Freeney and Mathis could cancel each other out, which is why I believe Allen and Ware make it next year …
Young definitely benefited from the organized coordinated promotional campaign by OL he faced (I wonder who initiated that, just curious).
testimonials from peers can certainly help a candidate, as long as they are not via media or other avenues but more grassroots efforts, and not aggressively targeted at voters. Perhaps we will start to see more of these, as would be helpful for some candidates, if you do them right and delivered effectively like it was done for Young.
I don’t really view Revis as 1st ballot but there appears to be plenty of support, including some indirect references to it from actual voters. Freeney falls in with Ware and Allen, and every indication I have read since results is that there is strong support for Ware and like Strahan he is well positioned for 2nd year election.
Boknows has pretty good list of four new finalists for 2023, several possible options for fifth, how about RB Fred Taylor since thats an missing offense position from final 15 list recently-just a thought?? I am not really high on his case but perhaps voters would look to add RB to list?
And there are three elections (and open slots each year) before Fitz hits the ballot-plenty of time and spaces to get in 1-2 WR-so I fully expect as soon as 2023 (A Johnson
Looks like Flash80 and Robert “the Greatest” (second year in a row!!!) were leaders in the clubhouse with 4/5 predictions, congrats to both!
May not have been a superheadliner in the class but looks like solid group to me, I like when long waiting and suffering deserving finalists finally get in and Boselli and Butler both fall into such a group, plus always supportive and appreciative to see senior candidate to get in.
Guessing we will let this thread run for next several months, and perhaps June/July set up Class of 2023 thread before August selections of coach, contributors and seniors.
Thanks everyone for continuing to post and contribute to this thread and other Hall topics here recently and over the last few years. Always great to read insights and thoughts.
Is there any chance we can get players with better profiles in? Most players who are in Canton deserve it. I’m not wowed by Young or to an extent, even Mills.
For offensive line, how is Anderson at 3/4 a better candidate than 2/7 All-Decade 1990s Richmond Webb?
I’m willing to concede that some players were better than I remember them and other players weren’t as good as I remember them. I remember Bryant Young and Willie Anderson being good. I don’t remember either being Hall of Fame good.
Corey the way I look at it is getting players like Seymour and Young elected and off the ballot, then opens opportunities for other DT.
So Butler opens path for D Woodson, Boselli opens up path for Anderson and Webb etc…
Once voters set up the order by advancing players as semi-finalists and then to finalists they have made their preferences, so next step is to get those players elected so others (including those we feel are just as deserving) have path.
Great job Paul and you’re right about setting up for future candidates.
This is the third year in a row for Robert “The Greatest” … Is his keen eye, scoping all the twitter leaks and journalists that speculate on candidates?
A man of few words but many skills …
Still hoping two seniors can start getting elected before 2024-25, but we will see.
To answer your question Paul, Kirk Reynolds (former 49ers PR director) helped set up the zoom call with 6 OL: Willie Roaf, Mark Schlereth, Kevin Gogan, Adam Timmerman, Jerry Fontenot and Robbie Tobeck.
Hats off to the voters for saving Sam Mills from the senior abyss. A pleasant surprise.
I agree with Corey. A really weak Class of moderns. I only agree with Seymour and I think he’s getting in too soon.
I think it’s a pretty decent class and why we would be surprised or consider it weak when we have known for a several years that Boselli Butler and Seymour (each one all decade plus multiple all pro) would get in. It’s a great occasion for them and well deserving. We should celebrate and congratulate each. Do we only think it’s a great class when an all time superstar player like Payton Manning gets in -and that doesn’t happen each election.
Updated # of PFHOF (major contributor) by team: Jags-1, Panthers-2, Saints-5, NE-6, 49ers-17, GB-27, Raiders-20, Rams-20, Eagles-11
Updated top 10 franchises with most PFHOF: 1.Bears 30, 2. GB 27, 3. Pitt 26, 4. NYG 21, 5tied Dal 20, Rams 20, Raiders 20, Wash 20, 9th tied Browns 17, Lions 17
Note: Mills counted for Panthers and Saints, Vermeil for Rams and Eagles
You were right Justin, with Boselli representing the Jaguars and Mills the Panthers. Johnson for the Texans could come next year or 2024, while Joe Thomas represents the “new” Browns.
Another offensive lineman to look at could be Logan Mankins besides Anderson, Webb, Wisniewski and hopefully Nalen.
You have to also wonder if a tight end like Gates or Witten will get in before another receiver but Johnson, Wayne and Holt could still get in soon.
I am still hoping Darren Woodson gets his chance soon but with Butler getting voted in, the voters might hold off on another safety for awhile. A lot have been elected recently.
Rewatched the announcements from NFL honors show and then the Knock on Door special that’ was on NFL network last – always great to see the emotions and awe of those elected and their families, how much the honor means to them and finally achieved especially those who have long waited for these moments
Brian, I think Butler getting in clears a path for Woodson to be a finalist next year. He’s now the number 1 safety on the ballot.
Matthew Stafford officially on HOF watch list? I think so. I know his all pro/pro Bowl stats aren’t very good but the pro bowl voting is a joke and hard to be All Pro in the Tom Brady/Drew Brees/Peyton Manning/Patrick Mahomes era. Some talks about Aaron Donald retiring. So the ballot might be insanely stacked by 2027 with Brady, Gronk and others.
So Kroenke hoists the trophy … Was hoping the Bengals would win for that reason but Donald stopped them on the final two plays.
Bad officiating game. They held off the flags, until the Rams got inside the Bengal 10 yard line.
Bengals had their chances …
Congrats to Stafford and Donald …
Officiating was fine, always going to be a missed call and no way they don’t call the holds plain as day near end zone. Rans pressure on Burrow was the difference while Stafford played well enough and hit the key passes when needed. I thought over all it was a very good SB, close with led changes. Helps Stafford’s SB resume but still plenty of aspects lacking and still seen as at most 8th best QB of his era – PFHOF debate will be interesting.
Nearly 7am for me here in the UK. Long night.
What a great game, A nice balance between offense and defense, a 4th quarter comeback and epic game-winning drive from Stafford and Kupp …. and then Aaron Donald closing the deal.
The Rams are loaded with really good players with very good careers who deserved a ring. Matt Stafford and Andrew Whitworth are on the HOF radar. I expect Whitworth to retire now. What a story for Eric Weddle coming out of retirement after 2 years away. Mid season trades for Von Miller and OBJ were a gamble and both ended up as home runs.
Commiserations to the Bengals. They have a great future as long as they start investing on that OL.
Does this change Eric Weddle’s eligibility?
Does anyone know if the usfl was included in Sam mills argument?
USFL is never considered in HOF room. And yes it does change Weddle eligibility. He will now be eligible 5 years from now in the Stacked Brady class. Another possible sad Adrian Peterson story. He is one bad mis-deed away from Darrren Sharper fate. I thought the SB was officiated very well. Congrats to guys Like Whitworth, OBJ, Stafford that may have needed the “SB Winner Boost,” for a better chance at the HOF.
Frankly I think the only player who really helped their PFHOF resume with the SB win was Stafford but he still remains far from an assured election-as of this point in his career. Donald (3x DPOY) was already lock for the Hall, Weddle and others really still don’t have strong PFHOF resumes. OL have a hard time without all decade and multiple all pro selections, so I really don’t believe Whitworth is any closer today.
I though it was a very good game, was close to the end (thats the 2021 playoffs for yea), lead changes, some big plays by QBs, WRs and pass rushers (Rams DL won them the SB), RB and run game was at historically bad level but partly indication of how game is played these days and passing strengths of these teams. I doubt Rams make return to SB next year (most SB winners don’t) and already gave away their future to secure Stafford-and was well worth the cost. With Burrow I am hopeful that the Bengals have a strong future (still hard to return to SB next year), organization has started to spend money, has cap space and a window with rookie contracts for superstar QB and WR-as long as ownership is willing to continue to invest and build as teams can not simply stand still, even SB teams need to evolve and improve every season. Sort of hoping that Allen and Burrow are the new young guns as next wave of superstar QBs in league as Brady, BenR and Rodgers begin to fade out of the limelight. Sure seems like league may be at one of those transitions to the next great QBs.
USFL is not a major factor in the PFHOF discussions and voting by the selection committee, I am sure it is mentioned but without the strong NFL career, Mills never gets in Hall on his USFL career alone (same for Kelly, White, Young). The only USFL player who might one day (but still unlikely) to get in Hall based strongly on his USFL career would be Herschel Walker. And yes I know it is the Pro Football HOF of Fame, but when you have dozens of deserving NFL players (from best pro football league) nominated each year, I simply don’t see voters advancing USFL, CFL, Arena football league players over those from the NFL. Voters actually had that chance in class of 2022 election cycle with Herschel Walker – in his last year as modern candidate-but he still did not advance to semi-finalist round.
Potential first ballot in class of 2027 continues to get interesting with Brady (although I wonder if he will return to play in 2022 or even 2023 season with 49ers??), Ben R, and Gronk (likely done), still waiting on Rodgers (very doubtful he retires) and AP latest run-in with law likely ends any chance he plays again and frankly likely impacts his first ballot chances. Although others will likely soon retire, I doubt the prospects of 4 or 5 first ballot in 2027 is realistic-could very will be Brady, Ben R and Gronk at most.
Eric Weddle is All Decade 2010s with Earl Thomas, Eric Berry and Tyrann Mathieu. He hits the ballot in 2027, one year before Darren Woodson’s eligibility expires. It would not surprise me if Weddle (and Woodson of course) eventually get elected.
Hopefully Woodson gets a late push and sneaks in these last 6 years. The clock is ticking fast.
There will be another 20 modern era HOFers before the 2027 Class everyone is already talking about.
2023-26 eligible have a few no brainers who will be among those 20. I think there’s a decent chance 8-9 of the remaining 10 finalists this year should be among those 20 starting with Ware and ZT in 2023.
The backlog at WR will take a while though and Fitzgerald is a lock in 2026. If Barber and Revis get elected by 2025 I’m hoping D.Woodson is the one semi-finalist from this year to sneak in before 2027.
The problem voters are going to face with the 2010s PFHOF all decade team is that they did not release (and have refused to do so since, after numerous requests) the vote counts, so we only know the few who were unanimous. We have no 1st team and 2nd team and historically this has made a big difference in how those players are considered or “ranked” by voters. Even with all decade teams as recent as 2000s, 1990s and 1980s, compare how many 1st team are already in Hall (most) compared to 2nd team (many are not).
So where does Weddle stand with Thomas, Berry and Mathieu- specially at that safety position which voters had done a very poor job recognizing (yes they have got much better). And I doubt -based on historical voting and all decade teams – there will be four safeties elected to PFHOF. Note just look at 70s and 80s all decade safeties who have had no movement to considering for election. I really don’t think Weddle has a clear obvious path to election-whereas I suspect Thomas does and perhaps Berry or Mathieu. And I do not think a SB puts Weddle higher on the 2010s all decade safety list.
And its natural after every SB and season with achievements (SB win, All pro) plus retirements, to think about the first ballot class five years from now. But I agree in context of the remaining 2022 finalists, there is clearly room on 2023-2026 ballots. Even if we ignore for the moment any new players moving from semi-finalist to finalist in 2023 (Darren Woodson), next four elections could look something like this – and yes I will likely get many of these wrong in terms of year and order, but why not take a shot at it LOL:
2023- JThomas, Revis, Ware, ZThomas, AJohnson
2024- Peppers, Gates, Holt, Barber, Willis
2025- Kuechly, Freeney, Wayne, WAnderson, Hester
2026- Brees, Fitz, JAllen, Vinatieri, Woodson
That’s a very solid 2023-26 and would be very pleased to see it fall that way.
11 holdovers from this year and 9 new names.
I like a lot of those names Paul- Is there any room for Cornelius Bennett in that group. It doesn’t look likely. I think one of my favorite LB’s of All-time is headed for Senior Abyss.
Bill- I was only looking at remaining 2022 finalists and likely 1s ballot in next several years, did not account for other players who could now advance into semi-finalist and finalist stages over next five years as those can be very hard to anticipate BUT very possible several make that move and Bennett could very well be one that does.
According to voter Clark Judge, the Hall President had virtual meeting with voters yesterday to discuss suggestions to improve the voting process. Idea that appears to have strong support (and will be taken to PFHOF Board at their April meeting for their consideration ) is to increase seniors to 2 per year effective with class of 2023, will likely involving alternating coaches and contributors every other year or simply combining those into a single category
Good news for senior candidates?
https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/more-seniors-for-pro-football-hall
Thanks Paul …
Lets keep our fingers crossed. Super seniors like Dilweg, Lewellen, Emerson, Wistert, Banducci, Benton, Barwegan, Jim Ray Smith, Patton, Matheson and others could eventually get their chance …
2023 Wishlist
Howley
Wistert
I am very confident 2023 senior finalists would be among: Ken Anderson, Maxie Baughan, Roger Craig,Randy Gradishar, Lester Hayes, Chuck Howley, Joe Klecko,Eddie Meador, Stanley Morgan, Tommy Nobis,Ken Riley, Sterling Sharpe.
Frankly could be any two, I would be fine with that, if I was sole voter it would be Howley and Sharpe (Dilweg if on their short list)
RIP Charley Taylor
RIP Charley Taylor
A great receiver, ran angry with the ball. A converted running back, was a true run-after-the-catch weapon for the REDSKINS. Want to collect his and Paul Warfields’ #42 jerseys from ebbets.com or Mitchell and Ness
You could be right on Sharpe, Paul. With Terrell Davis getting into the HOF despite playing only 78 regular season games, it helps open the door for Sharpe who never missed a game in 112 regular season starts before getting hurt in his last game.
I tried to watch highlights of the game and injury on ESPN’s NFL Primetime from wk 16/17 of 1994 but they never mentioned it, so the Packers had to have tried to kept it quiet until they got medical results.
Sharpe is certainly deserving but highly doubt seniors committee picks a WR again for third year in a row, so perhaps Gradishar and Craig (both were considered for 2020, 2021 and 2022 senior finalists). But Sharpe will get in soon also.
Respectfully disagree with corey and Tony P for a number of reasons
Its funny how the HOF Class announcements are like Christmas. Lots of buildup and speculation then its over and onto the next year. I am happy for the candidates but not all fans will be thrilled with the process. Was Mills any better than Clay Matthews, who lost out on his final year of eligibility as a modern ? Was Bryant Young any better than other tackles with light accolades ?
At least they basically cleared the queue though wide receivers will continue to be a topic because of statistical milestones over dominance.
Then, if we all get excited about the possibility of two seniors per year will they rotate, or just rotate the Coaches and Contributors every year ?
Will be an interesting year of developments.
Proposal is to go with 2 seniors each year and rotate or combine coaches and contributors at 1 per year
RIP Ken Burrough
Played on running teams and never had an elite QB. Still had a good career.
QB Dan Pastorini to WR 00 Ken Burrough was the only bright spot on some really bad Houston Oiler teams. Borrough will always be remembered for his 00 and a being a darn good deep threat on a lousy team.
I believe had Burrough not gotten hurt in 1980, the Oilers and Stabler would have won the division. By the end of the season, Casper and Barber — the tight ends– were the only options for Snake, while Renfro never emerged as more than a role player …
RIP Lionel James
An exciting player despite a short career. Similar to Darren Sproles …
Russell Wilson to the Broncos.
Pete Carroll is about finished in Seattle IMO.
Bobby Wagner leaving as well. 2 future HOFamers leaving in 24 hours. Sad day for Seahawks fans.
Now its Commander Wentz in Washington.
Who will go to Indy ? Jimmy G, Cousins, Mariota, Winston?
I am hoping a team takes a chance on getting Minshew from Philly … Steelers ?
Or would they trust Mason or Haskins ?
The Niners should keep Garopollo but if he goes, Brady will come back for them.
It makes sense for Wagner to go to Denver but how much is left in the tank ?
The Hall of Class of 2027 has changed. Tom Brady unretired.
yea so much for that “super” class of 2027 with potentially 4-5 first ballot elections, now down to likely BenR and APeterson. Could be a few others (Sherman, Patrick Peterson) on ballot if 2021 was in fact their last seasons, but doubt those or others are strong contenders for first ballot.
With Brady and Rodgers and more than likely Gronk returning…2027 will no longer be the greatest HOF class ever.
Andrew Whitworth has retired and should get HOF consideration.
Whitworth might but thinking his chances might be pretty low, recent decades have had as many as 4 OT elected, and for 2010s there will be JThomas, TSmith, JPeters, JStaley (all decade team members) plus TWilliams considered. There are OT from 80s and 90s all decade teams not yet in Hall. None of which bodes well for his election.
Paul i have a legit question who is the best senior ot from the 80s and the best from the 90s?
Mike Kenn and Marvin Powell or George Kunz
Punter Shane Lechler first ballot HOFer in 2023? 6x First-team All-Pro, 7x Pro Bowl. “Years active: 2000-2017 Age in final game: 41 years, 4 months, 24 days. Notable stats: One punt of at least 50 yards in 33 consecutive games (most all-time), 47.6 average yards per punt (most all-time) 68,678 punting yards, 1,444 punts. ”
He was the cream of the crop for a good number of years. He made punting the ball look cool and fun to watch. I don’t think it’s totally outrageous to say he was akin on some level to punting as Tiger Woods was to golf in bringing along an improvement of talent to the Game.. Punters aren’t like they used to be. Somebody better check those balls! LOL’s
Lechler will the second Raiders punter in Canton, but he’ll have to wait a while (hopefully not as long as Guy).
if Hester was not first ballot, I don’t see how Lechler will be. 2023 ballot already has first ballot Joe Thomas and likely Revis, plus a few other deserving new and returning candidates-he has no easy quick path to election
Senior OT 1980s – Jacoby, 1990s -Webb
I don’t think either are in top 15 of currently deserving seniors but from those eras and positions that’s who they are
2022 QB Carousel
Bucs — Brady is back, unless traded to SF after June 1st
Broncos — Wilson
Steelers — Trubisky
Browns — Watson
Commoders — Wentz
Texans — Mills, for now
Falcons — Ryan for now
Saints — Winston, Mariota, Garoppolo, Mayfield ?
Panthers — Winston, Mariota, Garoppolo, Mayfield ?
Seahawks — Lock, Mayfield, Winston, Mariota, Garoppolo ?
49ers — Lance, Garoppolo, Brady ?
Colts — Mayfield, Winston, Mariota, Garoppolo ?
Hopefully, a team has the moxie to sign Minshew from Philly. Dalton, Foles, and Haskins could get chances to start somewhere as well …
2022 QB Carousel
Bucs — Brady for now
Broncos — Wilson
Steelers — Trubisky
Browns — Watson
Redskins — Wentz
Falcons — Mariota
Colts — Ryan
Saints — Winston
Texans — Mills for now
Panthers — Mayfield ?
Seahawks — Lock or Mayfield ?
49ers — Lance or Garoppolo for now
Could Detroit go for Mayfield and dump Goff?
Will Darnold, Bridgewater, Minshew, Love or Haskins ever start again ?
Tyreke’s HOF chances just took a hot moving from Mahomes to Tua. He will still probably make it, but who knows.
WRs (along with RBs) are often one of the hardest positions to predict in early career to make PFHOF. Need multiple all pro and top seasons-many often fade 5+ yrs in career. I would say Hill (2x all pro) chances at election remain very uncertain-even before trade to Miami
You would think Hill would want to stay with Mahomes and the Chiefs but maybe he felt Kelce was getting too much attention, the way Terrell Owens felt about Witten with the Cowboys.
This signing should make you happy TonyP but can Tua or Bridgewater get him the ball ?
With Hill and Mostert’s speed out of the backfield–if he is healthy–could be an exciting offense for Miami.
This site is too quiet …
Now that its looking like Brady knew that Arians was stepping down, will he stay, get traded to SF or force a trade to Miami, where he will start with a chance at team ownership ? He may go there next year …
It’s a PFHOF site not NFL news, most posters here focus on Hall discussions
Gore officially retires but missed 2021 season so would be eligible for class of 2026 – unlikely first ballot (Curtis Martin wasn’t) so 2-3 yr wait
Brees and Fitzgerald (assuming he also retires) should be the first ballot names in 2026.
Paul who would you say are the favorites for senior contributor and coach for 2023
Gradishar and Parker (but I never get these predictions correct LOL)
RIP Rayfield Wright. Big Cat protected Roger Staubach and Craig Morten at an All-Pro level nearly evry year of his career.
RIP Rayfield Wright …
Great tackle. The only players that gave him trouble were LC Greenwood and occasionally, Jack Youngblood …
RIP Daryle Lamonica
Best starting QB winning pct without making the HOF (Brady Non-Eligible)
From Clark Judge today “ Hall’s Board of Trustees approved significant changes to its by-laws for the next three election cycles (2023-25) – including an increase from one to three senior finalists per year and the merger of contributors and coaches into one category.”
Great News …
Seniors will increase for the next three years to three per year for HOF nomination but still need 80% vote for induction.
LETS GO VOTERS FOR CHUCK HOWLEY !!
Haha … Sorry Paul, your comment didnt come up on my phone till later …
i like the increase of seniors to 1 to 3 and i also like them merging coaches and contributors
VOTE RANDY GRADISHAR
This will help with the back log to a certain extent. Get ready to right some wrongs!
Also seniors committee increase may from 9 to 12 with all 12 members involved in selection of 3 finalists and process will start with preliminary list followed by vote to 25 and then 12 semifinalists discussed and voted on by seniors committee to pick 3
Brian i agree on your seniors except for gene brito for various reasons
The revised voting stages, three new voters and having all 12 voters in the room to make selection of finalists could introduce new candidates BUT if we start with those seniors who we know have been considered repeatedly in recent elections than this list would be good place to start for possible nine to get elected 2023-25 ( presented here in no order): Ken Anderson, Maxie Baughan,Roger Craig,Randy Gradishar, Lester Hayes, Chuck Howley, Joe Klecko,Eddie Meador, Tommy Nobis,Ken Riley
According to Pro Football-reference.com, the most AP first-team All-Pro selections without making the HOF (Senior Eligibles) … (UPI excluded)
Tyrer — 6 selections
Dilweg — 5
Emerson — 5
Matheson — 5
Patton — 5
Grantham — 5 (AFL)
Howley — 5
Lewellen — 4
Wistert — 4
L Taylor — 4 (AFL)
Faison — 4 (AFL)
Recent Senior Finalists (AP All-Pro Selections)
Howley — 5
Gradishar — 2
Klecko — 2
Meador — 2
K Anderson — 1
Riley — 1
Baughan — 1
Craig — 1
Hayes — 1
Nobis — 1
I hope the 2023 Senior nominations will have at least two defensive players as they’ve gone with two WRs the last two years. Wouldn’t mind if two were LBs – Howley and Gradishar with one pre 1960 – Wistert, Dilweg, Emerson etc
This news has been so well received I’m hoping it eventually becomes permanent beyond this initial 3 year period.
im thinking BoKnows34 that they will go with 2/3 going on the defensive side and im also hoping they go with either howley or gradishar as one of them who will be the other two honestly i have no idea Im hoping for either eddie meador bobby boyd al wistert Ox Emerson Nobis and maxie baughan but i doubt seriously they go 3 lbs im thinking maybe 1 linebacker
Since election of the centennial class the senior committee has shown no interest in the pre 1950s players, not confident that happens in 2023
I concur with paul as usual if you had to guess which 3 would you like to see
Guess? Gradishar Klecko Craig
And I could live with those three, would prefer Howley and some mix of Dilweg, Emerson and Wistert. Howley and Gradishar in same class seems unlikely but would be happy to see Howley. And just not so sure voters are going to address the pre 1950 candidates but worth noting effort committee made in 2021 and 2022 to select finalists remaining from centennial class finalists-which would seem to bode well for Gradishar and Craig-perhaps also Dilweg, Emerson and Wistert. If not for 2023, the total of 9 slots 2023-25 would seem to be very helpful for all these candidates eventually. But again having total of 12 voters and all of them in room (not just rotation of 5) could very likely introduce new ideas of potential seniors to be considered.
I can see your argument as usual paul if my math is correct the only post 1950 candidates craig Nobis Gradishar am i correct Paul
yes if we are looking at the remaining centennial class senior finalists post 1950 that’s the three. Impossible to predict if they will be the three 2023 senior finalists but hey its a pretty safe guess LOL, regardless one has to think with nine slots 2023-25 that all three will eventually get elected in some order/year. The others I feel pretty good about for the fine are Howley and Klecko, and likely either Anderson or Riley. All these I mentioned have been finalists in recent years.
Since the seniors considered each year is not released officially by the Hall the information, all we have is partial and incomplete lists, but here is what my notes show of players considered repeatedly in recent years (two more years as finalists including 2021 or 2022, plus 2022 only):
LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP (2012F, 2013F, 2014F, 2015F,2021F, 2022F)
LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7 (2015F, 2020F, 2021F, 2022F)
LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9 (2022F)
CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s (2012F, 2013F, 2014F, 2015F,2022F)
RB Roger Craig SF (1)/3/80s (2020F, 2021F, 2022F)
LB Tommy Nobis ATL 1(1)/5/60s (2020F, 2021F, 2022F)
WR Sterling Sharpe GB 3/5 (2022F)
DL Joe Klecko NYJ 2/4 (2015F, 2021F, 2022F)
CB Lester Hayes OAK 1(5)/5/80s (2012F, 2022F)
DE L.C.Greenwood PITTS 2/6/70’s (2013F, 2015F, 2021F)
QB Ken Anderson CIN 1(2)/4/MVP (2012F, 2021F, 2022F)
CB Ken Riley CIN 4/0 (2021F, 2022F)
WR Stanley Morgan 2/4 NE (F2021, F2022)
And the seniors who appeared repeatedly on these annual lists during 2000s who were recently elected include Johnny Robinson, Jerry Kramer, Cliff Branch, Mick Tingelhoff, Alex Karras, Cliff Harris, Ray Guy. We have no indication of those seniors considered by the committee during 1970s to 2000s as none were made public and I am not even sure if such records exist (if they did PFHOF archives might be best source) as Hall has been pretty clear they are not to be released. So could be others including pre 1960 candidates were considered in past as senior candidate but we have no way to know for sure.
Since Hall intends to make new senior and coaches/contributor voting process mirror the current modern player selections with preliminary list, 25 list and 12 finalists, and they make the list of modern candidates at each stage public, perhaps for first time that will occur for seniors and coaches/contributors???
i hope so too paul that they make the senior finalists lists public for the first time, also the three seniors could be any combination of the past seniors that you mentioned
Yea, I think Gradishar, Klecko and Craig certainly have their supporters and seem to getting a push, but who knows if that results in their elections. Will be interesting to see who the new 3 senior committee members are and their insights and views added into the mix could really change the status quo in terms of players considered.
agreed paul will the new comm members stick to the usual finalists for seniors or do we get new seniors from them
Ep 107: Pro Football HOF President Jim Porter Returns To The Show
https://www.spreaker.com/user/fullpresscoverage/eyetest-20220427-1213
highlights of interest:
so there is going to be more transparency in the process of selecting the 3 senior finalists…. “As with the modern-era candidates (defined as 25 or fewer years from retirement), there will be transparency. When the preliminary list of candidates is compiled, it will be revealed to voters. The same goes for reductions to 25 and 12. At that point, each of the 12 semifinalists will be presented to the seniors’ sub-committee. The first cut will be to six, then to three finalists. They will then be presented to the Hall’s board of 49 selectors, along with the modern-era finalists.”…. but does this mean revealed publicly??
from Porters comments it sounds like transparency will include public reveal of all levels of senior lists, and although not required also seems be hope that remaining centennial class seniors should be among those considered (in final 12): Craig, Dilweg, Emerson, Gradishar, Isbelle, Lewellen,Nobis, Wistert-might finally get discussed.
Also some talk (no decisions yet) that full selection committee members-49- would meet over two days in mid January (could be hybrid of in-person/virtual) to conduct election, perhaps vote to final 10 on day one (and announce publicly) and on 2nd day conduct final vote to 5 elected (announcement held until NFL Honors show on Thursday before SB.
As to 2026 and beyond, thoughts on options are varied with seniors back to 2 or 3 a year, seems less interest in expanding moderns, but any decision would be addressed until after 2026 class.
Additional 3 voters on the seniors committee could be drawn from 49 voters or outside historians, and seniors timeline will stay to August selection of finalists (and then presented to full committee needing 80% vote in mid January)
CORRECTED “As to 2025 and beyond, thoughts on options are varied with seniors back to 2 or 3 a year, seems less interest in expanding moderns, but any decision would be addressed until after 2025 class.
I liked John Turney’s proposal of one super senior being part of the two or three possible elections but with voters erring towards players they have seen or know more about, they may feel a modern player –70s onward– may have a better chance of election, which seems somewhat hollow when a player like Gene Brito, who me and The Greatest have discussed, has more All-Pro selections (3 AP) than Baughan and Riley combined …
We will see how the super-senior players are handled but not getting hopes up.
brian i have to ask how long are you going to beat the brito drum
Haha … Just using him for reference. We just have to hope the voters show respect for older deserving players but I dont see it. They will probably go the easy route and elect the leftovers from the Centennial Class but I am sure Gosselin for Talkoffamenetwork will drum up support for All-Decade choices …
ok brian fair enough my question to you is who is left from the centennial class that is deserving
Of the eight remaining, I only support Dilweg, Lewellen, Wistert, Gradishar, Emerson and Craig.
Nobis was okay but injury prone and Isbell didnt play long enough …
“Gradishar, Howley Top Historians’ Picks for Hall’s Next Senior Inductees
Five historians were asked to pick the next nine seniors for Canton. These are their choices”.
https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/historians-pick-hall-seniors
They are not voters, but interesting that these five names were most popular:
“Denver linebacker Randy Gradishar and Dallas linebacker Chuck Howley were the only unanimous choices, while Philadelphia lineman Al Wistert, Green Bay end Lavvie Dilweg and Chicago guard Ox Emerson each made all but one ballot.”
Hall still needs to add 3 new members to 12 member seniors committee, likely will come from existing 49 member selection committee, but like the BRP and 2020 Centennial Class perhaps historians should be considered as voting members of the seniors committee to add their views and expertise to the mix? At least the current 9 members of the seniors committee have not really shown much interest in cases of Wistert, Dilweg, and Emerson and may not in next few years unless those 3 new voters include historians?
which leads me to think that they will go maybe 1960s and beyond for the seniors for the next three years im hoping they sprinkle in some pre 1960’s
A lot could depend on who the 3 new senior committee members, and then having all 12 participate in the final vote and selections at meeting in late August-those dynamics of the process could really change the candidates considered
Oh i agree with you 110 my question now is if they went pre 1960’s how shocked would you be paul
I would be pleasantly surprised to see Dilweg,Emerson and Wistert elected in next 9 seniors-remain hopeful (along with Gradishar and Howley!!)
me too paul if they can get in those guys you mentioned i would be very very shocked
I would also like to Barwegan, Roger Brown and Lester Hayes get some consideration.
Lester Hayes was a candidate considered for class of 2022, so he is very likely to appear on the list of 25 senior candidates and also the semi-finalist of 12, Barwegan and Brown seem less certain.
agreed on Barwegen and Brown , Brian Mentioned Jim Benton he thinks that i dont think benton has the numbers whose right
In my opinion, Jim Benton would be way, way down the list of deserving seniors.
Benton was the first great Rams T Formation receiver. He has the numbers, being the 2nd leading receiver of the 1940s to Hutson. Only Speedie is close and his career was mostly in the the AAFC, which could also hurt Barwegan’s chances but we will see. He also was part of two different championship teams, though there are other players ahead of him like Dilweg, Lewellen, Wistert, Emerson, Brito, Patton, Howley and Gradishar, IMO …
Have you guys ever looked at the futurefootballegends.com website? Interesting site that ranks HOF worthy players with weighted “legends scores” and ranks them by position and team.
It’s ok as another source of rankings, not so sure I would agree with how their system rates senior candidates. I think PFR HOFm is the better system
im with paul 100% PFR HOFM is a better measure overall
Gino Cappelletti, an original member of the Boston Patriots in 1960 and the American Football League’s Most Valuable Player in 1964, has died aged 89.
Cappelletti was one of only three players to play in every game in the AFL’s 10-year history, along with Jim Otto and George Blanda. He is also the AFL’s all-time leader in points (1,100) and should be a name to consider for the list of 25 Seniors.
I cannot understand for the life of me, why he wasn’t the AFL Senior, when that committee was specifically looking for an AFL player wasn’t the player picked over Floyd Little. “Duke” should have been a HOFamer years ago.
Floyd Little is the most odd and surprising senior finalists I have seen in the 22 years I have followed PFHOF elections closely-never understand at the time and still do not, why he was selected (over many other more deserving players including from AFL)
In the case of Little, I believe ex-Steelers helped get him elected. He had a couple of good games against them in Denver wins. Special teams helped him as well but he had only three seasons in his career with over 6 TDs scored … A head scratching choice indeed …
better afl choices at that time of littles induction: Sweeney Robinson Powell off the top of my head
RIP Marion Barber
A tough runner for the Cowboys after they mistakenly passed on Steven Jackson.
RIP Bob Talamini
One of the best players in AFL History with a case for the HOF …
Played a great game against the Colts in SB III
recent retirements who will get consideration for PFHOF: class of 2026-Frank Gore; class of 2027-Richard Sherman, Andrew Whitworth, Alex Mack
I find Whitworth interesting. A very, very good Tackle who was more prominent after he had been in the league 10 years.
I think the challenge Whitworth faces is that from a specific decade/era voters have typically not elected more than 4 OT-if they eventually elect the 2010s all decade OT of JThomas, TSmith, JPeters, JStaley (and TWilliams??) – would they elect a 5th or 6th one?? There are all decade OT from 80s and 90s still not in Hall
Kind of surprised how jumbled the OT are for the last decade—didn’t think there was any way Staley was in the conversation, especially over Williams—but other than Thomas, they all have similar post season profiles.
Yea I agree Tony (especially with no 1st team/2nd team designated for the 2010s all decade team) voters could have an interesting time – and take several elections to sort out – the next OT in line after Thomas is elected next year. In terms of other OT already on ballot, I would suspect Willie Anderson to progress further and perhaps Richard Webb start to draw interest from voters
Although it appears PFHOF website has not be updated (it is often way out of date), 3 additional voters were added to each of the seniors committee and the coaches/contributors committee being both to 12 members All 12 members of will be present when each committee meet in late August to select class of 2023 finalists- 3 seniors, 1 coach/contributor. And in coming weeks/months, for the first time ever the Hall will publicly release the preliminary list plus cutdown lists to 25 and the 12 candidates in each category to be considered at those respective meetings in late August. Hall has not announced dates for when those lists will be released, and we likely will not know until they are in fact released.
Does anyone know whats going on with Talkoffamenetwork? Are readers supposed to subscribe now to get access to new articles or the writers just taking time off for vacations ?
Haven’t seen any new material since June 1st.
Brian i think its Vacations?
Thanks, The Greatest …
I hope ur right because I aint paying to subscribe. I dont even comment on articles because of facebook …
ok gang if you had to pick 1 senior player for 2023 that would shock you who would it be
No senior player would really shock me because its subjective to the voters but if a QB like Conerly, Anderson, Gabriel or Hadl got in –they all have good cases– it would be a surprise but hey, Kurt Warner got in … haha
Clay Matthews Jr
BTW rumor has it that the list of 25 senior semi-finalists will be announced this week
Kurt Warner has 2 NFL MVPs – not sure how voters would not eventually elect any player with those honors (plus SB MVP and took two teams to SB)
25 senior semifinalists and 25 coaches/contributor semifinalists for class of 2023 to be announced by Hall tomorrow Thurs July 7th
Paul, I wonder how many pre 1960s players will be on the list whats the over under?
The list is out …
No Lewellen
No Emerson
No Wistert
No Brito
Only Isbell and Dilweg among super-seniors
Complete List: Ken Anderson, Maxie Baughan, Mark Clayton, Roger Craig, LaVern Dilweg, Randy Gradishar, Lester Hayes, Chris Hinton, Chuck Howley, Cecil Isbell, Joe Jacoby, Billy “White Shoes” Johnson, Mike Kenn, Joe Klecko, Bob Kuechenberg, George Kunz, Jim Marshall, Clay Matthews Jr., Eddie Meador, Stanley Morgan, Tommy Nobis, Ken Riley, Sterling Sharpe, Otis Taylor and Everson Walls.
CANTON, OHIO – Fifty-four Seniors, Coaches and Contributors have moved one step closer to election as members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Class of 2023.
The Hall’s 12-person Seniors Committee trimmed a list of eligible nominees to 25 Semifinalists who advance to the next round of consideration.
They are: Ken Anderson, Maxie Baughan, Mark Clayton, Roger Craig, LaVern Dilweg, Randy Gradishar, Lester Hayes, Chris Hinton, Chuck Howley, Cecil Isbell, Joe Jacoby, Billie “White Shoes” Johnson, Mike Kenn, Joe Klecko, Bob Kuechenberg, George Kunz, Jim Marshall, Clay Matthews Jr., Eddie Meador, Stanley Morgan, Tommy Nobis, Ken Riley, Sterling Sharpe, Otis Taylor and Everson Walls.
Each Semifinalist played his last game in professional football no later than the 1996 season.
Separately, the Hall’s 12-person Coach/Contributor Committee reduced the list of nominated candidates to 29 Semifinalists who advance to the next round of consideration.
They are: K.S. “Bud” Adams Jr., Roone Arledge, C.O. Brocato, Don Coryell, Otho Davis, Ralph Hay, Mike Holmgren, Frank “Bucko” Kilroy, Eddie Kotal, Robert Kraft, Rich McKay, John McVay, Art Modell, Clint Murchison Jr., Buddy Parker, Carl Peterson, Dan Reeves, Lee Remmel, Art Rooney Jr., Marty Schottenheimer, Jerry Seeman, Mike Shanahan, Clark Shaughnessy, Seymour Siwoff, Amy Trask, Jim Tunney, Jack Vainisi, Lloyd Wells and John Wooten.
Selection bylaws stipulate that both the Seniors Committee and Coach/Contributor Committee vote for 25 Semifinalists but also allows for additional candidates to proceed in the process in the case of a tie vote for the 25th position. That occurred in the Coach/Contributor field.
The respective selection committees now will consider the candidates and vote to send 12 Seniors and 12 Coach/Contributors through to the Finalists stage. The results of those reduction votes will be announced July 27.
The Seniors Committee will meet Aug. 16 to select up to three Seniors for final consideration as members of the Class of 2023. Expansion of the Seniors pool for election to the Hall was approved earlier this year for the Classes of 2023, 2024 and 2025.
Coach/Contributor Committee members will meet Aug. 23 to select one Coach or Contributor for final consideration for the Class of 2023.
No Benton or Howton amongst super-seniors.
More Coaches/Contributor candidates than players.
AFL continues to be under-represented …
Only Otis Taylor is considered.
1 small correction brian ken riley played his 1st year in the afl
Haha … Thanks Robert …
No Patton, Smerlas, Jackson, Sweeney, Grantham, Barwegan … Alot of All-Pro selections left out.
Wistert, Emerson, Lewellen, Benton, Howton, Brito, are you kidding me ?
Even Otis Taylor played most of his career in the NFL. Lionel Taylor, Grantham, Tyrer, Budde, Sweeney, Grayson, Haynes, Talamini, Byrd and Haynes got snubbed …
lets just say brian that you and i have a difference of opinion on the super seniors and ill end it there
Glad to see Mark Clayton and Stanley Morgan on the list
I like Clayton and Morgan but over Del Shofner or Billy Howton ? No Harold Jackson as well. I am pulling for Dilweg but Sharpe could supplant him.
Class Of 2023 Senior Wishlist
Dilweg
Howley
Gradishar
Class Of 2023 Senior Predictions
Riley
Klecko
Sharpe (If they actually choose three)
Would have liked to see LC Greenwood and Mike Curtis on the list, but it goes to show how deep the Senior list is.
Here is my attempt at ranking them
1. Chuck Howley LB
2. Roger Craig RB
3. Randy Gradishar LB
4. Maxie Baughan LB
5. Sterling Sharpe WR
6. Ken Anderson QB
7. Lester Hayes CB
8. Joe Jacoby T
9. Eddie Meador S
10 Joe Klecko DT
11. Bob Kuechenburg
12. Tommy Nobis LB
13. Mike Kenn T
14. Lavern Dilweg E
15 Ken Riley CB
16. George Kunz T
17. Otis Taylor WR
18. Stanley Morgan WR
19. Clay Matthews LB
20. Mark Clayton WR
21. Billy Johnson Spec. Teams
22 Jim Marshall DE
23. Everson Walls CB
24. Chris Hinton T
25. Cecil Isbell QB/TB
Brian the seniors committee is required to select 3 senior finalists, its then up to the full 49 member committee when they meet next January to vote on each of the 3, given that voters pushed for 3 seniors and since 2000 the vast majority of seniors have been elected (and I doubt any of the three will be controversial), we can fully expect the 3 selected by the seniors committee next month for class 2023 will become PFHOFers
Brian: who would you pick from this
Rec
Harold Jackson 579
Billy Howton 503
Boyd Dowler 474
Del Shofner 349
Gary Collins 331
Receiving Yds
Harold Jackson 10372
Billy Howton 8459
Boyd Dowler 7270
Del Shofner 6470
Gary Collins 5299
Touchdowns
Harold Jackson 76
Gary Collins 70
Billy Howton 61
Del Shofner 51
Boyd Dowler 40
Benton (super-senior)
Shofner
Howton
Jackson
Powell
Would be my choices in order as receivers …
I hope ur right Paul … It would be nice if all three senior selections get elected …
Forgot about Powell ill add him onto the list and update it brian
Updated for Brian Added for him Powell and Benton Dale was my addition
Rec
Harold Jackson 579
Billy Howton 503
Art Powell 479
Boyd Dowler 474
Carroll Dale 438
Del Shofner 349
Gary Collins 331
Jim Benton 288
Receiving Yds
Harold Jackson 10372
Billy Howton 8459
Carroll Dale 8277
Art Powell 8046
Boyd Dowler 7270
Del Shofner 6470
Gary Collins 5299
Jim Benton 4801
Touchdowns
Art Powell 81
Harold Jackson 76
Gary Collins 70
Billy Howton 61
Carroll Dale 52
Del Shofner 51
Jim Benton 45
Boyd Dowler 40
and to add im sorry brian im not as high as shofner as you are
Thanks Robert … I forgot about Dale who I favor a lot, as well as Gary Clark, Wesley Walker and Pete Retzlaff.
Interesting things about the list. Only Meador amongst safeties. Scott, Anderson, Cromwell, Browner, Tatum, Grayson, Green and others missed the cut. Many recent elections already.
You had between 6-8 teams with two player representatives with the Packers having the most with three …
Only Anderson and Isbell amongst QBs …
Very disappointed OJ Anderson missed the cut with only Craig amongst RBs …
Many receivers and linebackers in the group.
Five offensive linemen as well …
Y’all know I’m stingy about the HOF worthiness of many players. LOL I would be OK if no other players no other pre-modern day players were elected. That said, Howton’s number’s and in the time he played certainly must have an argument. He was great from the moment he hit the NFL.
I have always supported Harold jackson. it’s a crying shame he’s not in the HOF. It feels much like Cliff Branch for the All – Decade player. He should of been put in before Charlie Joiner IMO. jackson has excellent numbers considering where he played. I wouldn’t hold it against him that he played some of his best years for “ground Chuck” with mediocre Pat Haden. I was impressed what he did for New England late in his career playing second fiddle to Stanley Morgan. Kind of like Joiner did in San Diego. He finished his career real nice. Steve Grogan was ok but he he was no Dan Fouts. lol My last thought is if Dan Fouts get’s a HOF WR why can’t Dan Marino? Haha I’d put up Mark Clayton versus Charlie Joiner. :)
Travis Kelce is entering his 10th season just behind in yards and more catches than Rob Gronkowski. He trails in TD’s but who doesn’t? LOL. His Playoff numbers are comparable in 7 fewer games. He’s got to be a 1st Ballot selection for TE doesn’t he? Unless he breaks a leg he should collect his 8th PB to go with his 3 AP’s. Most of his numbers are already comparable to Shannon Sharpe in 49 fewer starts.
Do you think 3/6 Tyreek Hill with regret going to Miami?
sorry, I meant I’m OK if no other player before modern day were elected to HOF.
We are working on new thread for class of 2023 – coming soon
Brian ill add wesley walker retzlaff and gary clark to the list and see how it looks
Not a problem Brian heres the Updated List
Rec
Gary Clark 699
Harold Jackson 579
Billy Howton 503
Art Powell 479
Boyd Dowler 474
Pete Retzlaff 452
Carroll Dale 438
Wesley Walker 438
Del Shofner 349
Gary Collins 331
Jim Benton 288
Receiving Yds
Gary Clark 10856
Harold Jackson 10372
Billy Howton 8459
Wesley Walker 8306
Carroll Dale 8277
Art Powell 8046
Pete Retzlaff 7412
Boyd Dowler 7270
Del Shofner 6470
Gary Collins 5299
Jim Benton 4801
Touchdowns
Art Powell 81
Harold Jackson 76
Wesley Walker 71
Gary Collins 70
Gary Clark 65
Billy Howton 61
Carroll Dale 52
Del Shofner 51
Pete Retzlaff 47
Jim Benton 45
Boyd Dowler 40
In Terms of the safteys/cbs you mentioned
Support
Anderson
Browner
Grayson
Scott
On The Fence
Cromwell
C. Green
Tatum
Robert, i have looked hard at all of those WR’s (except Benton) in the past. I haven’t heard Benton’s name come up before. IMO most are Hall of Very Good. Exception Gary Clark who should already be in along with Jackson. Powell is intriguing but I have to think he’s being punished by the level of competition in the early to mid 60’s AFL. Wesley Walker’s story about being legally blind in one eye is amazing. Such a fun player to watch. I couldn’t stand him being on the Jets. lol
I loved Dick Anderson but I can’t put him in the HOF even though I would like to because of his importance to the No-Name Defense. He may very well be put in one day. I would be happy to see an Dolphin in the HOF. :) Keuchenburg and Jake Scott are the most deserving Dolphins not in the HOF.
The players on the fence aren’t on it for me. Cromwell was a hit for several years but comes up a little short. He reminded me of a poor man’s Rod Woodson. A good player and a better athlete. I think Tatum has an argument but will never be a HOFer because of the Darryl Stingley incident and his reputation as a dirty player. I’d like him on my team. lol
That’s my 2 cents. :)
Joey Browner was a big hitter. i love me some Trojans. :) I could get behind him more and more as time goes by. I don’t know a lot about Grayson but he certainly appears to have a strong argument based on his resume.
Paul Im thinking 2/3 selections will be defensive since they have gone offense D. Pearson (2021) C. Branch (2022)
Tony I agree with you on Kuechenberg and Scott Being the most deserving Dolphins not being in the hall of fame and very very excellent points on Cromwell being a poor mans Rod Woodson , Also your right Tatums hit on Stingley will hurt him in the Long Run and one final point i agree 100% on Clark and Jackson being in the hof
Appreciate the feedback Robert. I’m sure I missed the mark on some my opinions.
Who do we think are the most glaring HOF omissions of senior players? You can only pick ONE from each side of the ball. lol
Here are a few names to ponder.
https://fansided.com/2020/06/16/each-nfl-teams-biggest-hall-of-fame-snub/9/
could be heavy on the defense, I suspect 3 finalists will come down to some mix of Gradishar, Howley, Dilweg, Anderson, Craig, Sharpe, Klecko,Meador, Riley…. if I was a betting man my money would be on Gradishar (70s), Craig (80s) and Sharpe (90s). If had a vote it would be Gradishar, Howley, Dilweg- but I don’t think they go 2 LBs and not so sure they go pre-1960s (given how they have already ignored Wistert and Emerson suggests they simply are not interested in pre 60s seniors.
TonyP – Howley and Dilweg
My picks are Jim Tyrer and Steve McMichael. I just didn’t see Chuck Howley so it’s hard to go all the way with him. I did see McMichael. Gradishar is another it’s hard to pass up on but I will stick with the gutty Mongo. That Bears Defense was so great and IMO McMichael can’t be denied. Compare McMichael’s numbers to the great DT Warren Sapp. IMO he’s a great example of a great player who’s lacking the accolades he deserved. And he’s no Jimbo Covert. lol He had the misfortune of playing in the era of Randy White. And I can’t understand why his teammate Dan Hampton was regarded as a DT on All Decade Team? That should of been Mongo’s spot. Keith Millard was a very good player. John Randle and Cortez Kennedy came along in the 90’s at the end of McMichael’s career. He finished his career strong. McMichael and Doug English were the best D -lineman I saw while at the University of Texas. . Well could add Kenneth Sims. He was a dud in the NFL though.
If not Tyrer I could go with his teammate Otis Taylor who was ahead of his time at Wide Receiver. There were some really of great ones in the AFL. I think it’s time.
The only one I know for sure Tyrer!! I think it’s time for the NFL to step up to the plate and acknowledge his greatness and also the likelihood the game took it’s toll on him. One will never know. His football story should be told. Many of his opponents say he was the best ever!!
Tony your opinion on Tyrer is one i support 110% i think he is one of the best offensive linemen not in the hall of fame but also i would accept otis taylor also
Paul id be ok with Gradishar and Craig i need to do some more research on Sterling Sharpe before i make a decision
My heart says yes to Roger Craig but when I look at his stats my mind keeps saying he falls slightly short. That said I have no issue with him in the HOF. He was a key player on a great team. I’ve got issue with some others I won’t mention. :) Clearly, who you know and a player’s charisma can matter IMO.
I see Pro Reference is including the old timer’s unofficial sacks in their stats now. Curious who thinks they know this group of Defensive Tackles well enough to rank them on their overall ability. Anything I said would be a guess. I wish we knew how many tackles they were in on.
7/11 Bob Lilly 95.5 sacks in 196 starts
5/14 Merlin Olsen 91 sacks in 208 starts
4/10 Joe Greene 77.5 sacks in 172 starts
5/9 Alan Page 148.5 sacks in 215 starts
3/4 Alex Karras 100 sacks in 156 starts
4/8 Buck Buchanan 70.5 sacks in 172 starts
2/6 Roger Brown 79 sacks in 124 starts – not in the HOF
0/0 Jethro Pugh 96.5 sacks in 156 starts – not in the HOF, in his prime he appears to be as good at sacking the QB as any DT HOFer. Amazing he got no accolades. Another Cowboy Jim Jeffcoat suffered the same under appreciated fate. As did Giants George Martin who I liked. Not even one PB.
By old timers I mean older Modern day players.
I don’t think Tony Boselli is elected if Jimbo Covert didn’t make it on that special election committee. Too much pressure than. I like my O-Lineman to have Hall of Fame careers not only HOF talent. I never had an issue with their greatness. Well Covert maybe a little. LOL I don’t remember him like some others did. I know John Madden was in love with talking about him with his booms and splats. :)
Tony P.: I agree with you on tony boselli and jimbo coverts inductions and in terms of craig i could go either way
Valid Point Tony on Boselli and Covert which i agree on 100% my question Tony is what do you think about sterling sharpe
With voters now starting to elect short career guys, opens door for eventually election of a very deserving senior candidate in Stirling Sharpe.
Covert was elected in 2020, at that point Boselli had already been a modern finalist, in fact made the round of final 10 (which he would 5x). But yes the elections of Covert, Easley, Megatron (and TD) all set the stage for voters to accept shorter careers, and Boselli with multiple first team all pro and 2nd team all decade certainly was deserving.
As to Craig, he perhaps not at top of my list of seniors, but has been considered as the senior finalists several times, including 2020 centennial class, so votes are certainly aware and supportive of his case. I think he has a unique resume and would not have any issue if eventually elected as senior, which may happen in 2023 as he certainly is a contender, and if not now certainly in near future. In some respects the 80s 49ers as a dynasty are underrepresented in terms of players in the Hall so that may also be a factor here.
BTW following up on earlier post, I checked with Clark Judge and Talk of Fame Network is no more, he is looking into starting up a new website that would have much of the same focus, but I don’t know the timeline for launching of that project or who will be involved. Seems like there were disagreements between those involved and mutual decision was to walk away from Talk of Fame. Hopefully he and other voters are involved in similar effort as it was nice to have such public insight into the election process and potential candidates.
Thanks Paul for giving greater insight. Hard to know if Boselli was inevitable. Good point about the door being open for shorter careers. I still like to think it’s for certain positions but probably not now. I know it’s more complicated than that.
Any thought on Jethro Pugh? Did anyone here see him play in the 60’s?
Of course I must indulge myself and guess at my list of DT’s. Haha But that’s mostly what it is because most of those players from the 1960’s I watched late in their careers and not in their primes. Where’s Bill the film expert. :)
4/10 Joe Greene 77.5 sacks in 172 starts
7/11 Bob Lilly 95.5 sacks in 196 starts
5/14 Merlin Olsen 91 sacks in 208 starts
5/9 Alan Page 148.5 sacks in 215 starts
2/6 Roger Brown 79 sacks in 124 starts
3/4 Alex Karras 100 sacks in 156 starts
4/8 Buck Buchanan 70.5 sacks in 172 starts
0/0 Jethro Pugh 96.5 sacks in 156 starts
if anyone is interested
Rec
Sterling Sharpe 595
Billy Howton 503
Del Shofner 349
Receiving YDS
Billy Howton 8459
Sterling Sharpe 8134
Del Shofner 6470
Touchdowns
Sterling Sharpe 65
Billy Howton 61
Del Shofner 51
Thanks Paul about talkoffamenetwork …
Clark Judge just did an article on Pro Football Journal. Hope he stays to do more …
Brian i am passionate about only 1 super senior his name al wistert
Robert, I think Sterling Sharpe certainly would have had a HOF career if he played just 2-3 more years. Those are the breaks that go with some players. It’s a brutal game. VERY few players IMO deserve the HOF for a shorter career.
Sharpe’s stats with one year of the Magic Man and three with Favre were all world. I tend to use Gale Sayers as the measuring stick and for me Sharpe’s WR skill didn’t stand out enough though he was interesting. And I know it’s a team sport but he didn’t win anything that would make him more memorable. He was tough as nails and hard to stop in the fast break Packer Offense. He seemed more suited for RB.
There’s a player I really like today named Tyreek Hill. He’s a 3/6 over his first 6 years. I think he’s more skilled but I wonder if this was his last year would he make the HOF? I tend to think so. Maybe Sharpe is deserving? I don’t support his election. I think sentiment will put him in the HOF because he’s the big brother of Shannon Sharpe. That said, I’m not sure own personality hasn’t held him back. He had a reputation as a player for being a bit surly and defiant complaining to the refs a lot. If they let him in it really opens up the HOF to other players especially RB’s who had like 4-5 great years and ended up banged up. . I would expect to see Larry Brown, Ottis Anderson, Billy Sims and William Andrews etc… in the HOF one day. :)
If Floyd Little is in the HOF shouldn’t Calvin Hill be in? I’m just saying. :)
tony p im in agreement 100% im not as sold on sharpe like you stated you gave some very valid points on why sharpe shouldnt be in and your right if sharpe gets in it opens the flood gates
I don’t think Sharpe getting in opens the flood gates any more than Megatron, Boselli, Covert, TD or Easley did. He has 3x first team all pro selections and in 7 year career led league in receptions 3x, yards 1x, and TDs 2x-one can argue based on his stats that he was 2nd to only Jerry Rice as best WR in league for six year period 1989-94-and for three of those years he had better stats than Rice.
If he does get in (and I suspect he will) I would be interested in who that would open the floodgates for in terms of current PFHOF eligible players.
Sad to hear that Talkoffame is no longer putting out new material. I really liked the site.
Here is my list of greatest retired DT’s you mentioned above, althought there are others I would rank ahead of Buchannon and Karras
1. Olsen
2. Greene
3. Lilly
4. Page
5. Buchannon
5. Karras
Good point Paul. The floodgate if open is already there. Thanks Bill. :)
Brian : Shall i share my senior list that i shared with you on this site?
So my question remains- if the short career floodgate is open, which current PFHOF eligible players would benefit?
Only the ones who had their career’s shortened or hampered by injury and who have the accolades. I would think that brings quite a few into the picture.
The shift would help several Miami Dolphin players especially from the 1970’s. I think 2/3 Dick Anderson retired because of a bad knee after a nine year career. I know a neck injury knocked out 1/5 Bill Stanfill and injuries hastened the end for 1/5 John Offerdahi and 1/5 Bob Baumhower. Of those Anderson and Baumhower have the best argument for the HOF.
The argument for Baumhower. I think he has a strong case. I believe he has the most sacks for a Nose Tackle at 39.5
https://www.profootballresearchers.com/biography/Baumhower_Bob.pdf
I will come up with a more comprehensive list.
Perhaps but not so sure a short career plus just one first team all pro is well positioned to be elected. Megatron, Easley, Boselli, TD, Covert all had more all pro, plus all decade-and love or hate all decade teams the voters certainly do. Dick Anderson might certainly benefit ,but I find it far from a wave flooding the PFHOF. Short career players in Hall will always be few.
Tony P; I would endorse Baumhower and Anderson Not too sure on Offerdahl
My predictions on the Class Of 2023 concerning seniors have been reconsidered, though I hope I am wrong. To avoid gridlock and cancelling each other out, I believe the committee kept the super-senior counts minimal based upon the eight remaining finalists from the 2020 Blue Ribbon Panel. Since five were super-seniors, they left off three to add the other three modern players to have five to possibly be voted in over the next three years.
If Dilweg or Isbell get voted in and I support Dilweg, hopefully Lewellen, Emerson and Wistert will get into the semifinals over the time period … we will see. Though I want Howley or Meador to be voted in based on merit, these five players or more could still get in but we dont know or realize whether voters that are team-homers will go for these former finalists or not …
2023 Wishlist
Dilweg
Howley
Gradishar
2023 Predictions (2020 Finalists Influence)
Dilweg
Craig
Gradishar
Brian i seriously doubt that they would put in dilweg this year but thats just me
Floyd Little 1/5 with 9 years and only 105 starts. We are talking about Seniors so I don’t think any are in a good position. lol It’s a lot about support IMO. I can only think of several modern day short career HOFers over about a 50 year period. Seems it’s more likely to happen today.
Chuck Foreman 1/5 would seem likely to make the Hall if there’s a shift in thinking. If you listen to Foreman he’ll tell you he should have been 1st ballot. lol He only started 84 games with a 3.8 ypc rush average. LOL He was a great weapon out of the backfield catching the ball which was still a bit unusual for the time. His running mate Rickey Young ended up even better at that.. No Foreman wasn’t a Gale Sayers or Earl Campbell or Terrell Davis. He was one of those memorable RB’s of the 70’s who was fun to watch with his spins and fancy footwork. I liked Chuck Muncie too. A Hall of Very Good career that maybe could have ended in a HOF career but he got a bit complacent and lost his edge. The SB losses took their toll.
Tommy Nobis 1/5 is a All Decade who could be due. He’s a little short on games at 134 for having a 10 year career. The problem for him is I don’t think there’s a swell of fan support anymore even though he has great respect among his peers. That’s probably what a lot of the old timers are suffering from. You can only hope the selection committee will go back and take a really good look at them but it seems like players need to be brought to their attention. There are some that I don’t think were like that for example Curly Culp and Chris Hanburger but most appear to being strongly supported. At least that’s my perception.
If we are to consider players who had career’s derailed by injuries than here are a few I wouldn’t mind in the HOF. This is the softer gentler me. LOL
3/3 Rich Tombstone Jackson
2/4 Larry Brown
2/3 Dick Anderson
0/5 Lawrence McCutcheon
1/2 Bubba Smith
1/3 Wally Chambers
1/5 Bob Baumhower
0/3 Billy Sims
1/2 Ottis Anderson
1/2 Joe Theismann
0/4 William Andrews
2/2 Keith Millard
3/5 Sterling Sharpe
3/3 Priest Holmes
1/3 Shaun Alexander
If you let Jimbo Covert in don’t you need to let Millard in? He was awful good too! Before they let 3/5 and 4/5 profiles into HOF, Earl Campbell and Dwight Stephenson respectively. Now they let 2/2, 0/3’s and 0/4 in. I know it’s not quite that simple but it looks like they are lowering the bar.
What I’m finding is when you consider players with injuries it becomes a sticky situation. LOL A lot of player’s careers are affected by injury over their last several years. I think I’d rather be a tough grader. :) I still support the players I listed. Seems like everyone talks about Billy Sims when they think about great players who’s career’s ended by injury. He was great because the Lions didn’t give him much blocking. He was very elusive! Those are the fun players to watch. :)
Ill be honest tony P i go back and forth on nobis somedays i support him and sometimes i dont
Brian by my research there are three pre 1960s on the ballot do you consider Chuck Howley 1958,Ed Meador 1959 super seniors along with dilweg
I wonder how many NFL Safety’s are in the HOF from the time Meador played? He certainly benefited from a position change in accolades. I know of one in the AFL, Johnny Robinson . He was a 6/7 on a three time champion and it wasn’t easy.
Paul, how much credence do you give to a “2nd team” All Pro like Tackle Mitchell Schwartz? He retired due to back issue after a 9 year career as 1/0. He earned three 2nd team AP’s and interestingly no PB’s.
FNC reports, “He had a remarkable ironman streak of 7,894 consecutive snaps played. Schwartz never missed a game until he was injured during the 2020 season. He started 134 regular season games in his career, along with seven playoff games. During that postseason run, Schwartz did not surrender a sack and only allowed one pressure on quarterback Patrick Mahomes.”
2 more guys that had a bright star for a short period of time were George Webster LB and DT Big Daddy Lipscomb
Tony P: off the top of my head
NFL
Paul Krause
Yale Lary
Emlen Tunnell
Willie Wood
AFL
Ken Houston
Johnny Robinson
Commenting on the recent list of Coaches/Contributors, its funny how they have more nominations than the senior players.
Still not enough Head coaches or player personnel people but happy Vainisi and Kotal made the list, though Dick Haley did not. With another Rooney in the mix (Art Jr.) and Nunn recently being elected, Haley’s chances are slim-to-none …
Disappointed Chuck Knox missed the cut. Hoping this is the year for HC Buddy Parker.
2023 Wishlist
Parker
2023 Prediction
Kraft
Brian ill make you a deal i will consider shofner once the following are either considered nominated inducted Wistert VL Dilweg Emerson
Coaches contributors only have more semi finalists due to tie votes – but it is a weird odd set with some unusual additions and omissions- but not much to say about their class of 2023 as very likely it’s Robert Kraft
shall a group of us pick the 12 senior player finalists ill be one of them who wants to join me
sure, feel free to post here (I submitted content for a new tread for Class of 2023 to our esteemed hosts, could be put up soon but in the meantime…)
My Class of 2023 senior finalists predictions-for July 27th announcement
1.Anderson
2.Riley
3.Baughan
4.Craig
5.Dilweg
6.Gradishar
7.Hayes
8.Howley
9.Klecko
10.Meador
11.Nobis
12.Sharpe
“Paul, how much credence do you give to a “2nd team” All Pro like Tackle Mitchell Schwartz? He retired due to back issue after a 9 year career as 1/0. He earned three 2nd team AP’s and interestingly no PB’s. ”
History has shown its really hard for most players with only 2nd team all pro selections as main career accomplishments to get into the Hall. QBs, RBs, WRs with high career stats, playoff successes with/without SB wins being the noted exception. Unfortunately the seniors pool (and modern candidate list) is still full of candidates with multiple first team all pro and/or all decade team selections. Exceptions in last few decades of elections are very very few, if any.
heres mine Paul we agree on 11/12
Ken Anderson
Maxie Baughan
Roger Craig
Randy Gradishar
Lester Hayes
Chuck Howley
Joe Klecko
Bob Kuechenberg
Jim Marshall
Eddie Meador
Tommy Nobis
Ken Riley
heres mine Paul we agree on 11/12
Ken Anderson
Maxie Baughan
Roger Craig
Randy Gradishar
Lester Hayes
Chuck Howley
Joe Klecko
Bob Kuechenberg
Jim Marshall
Eddie Meador
Tommy Nobis
Ken Riley
sorry that went through twice
Thanks Robert! I didn’t know it was that many from the Safety position. I remember hearing the position wasn’t very highly regarded by the HOF until more recently. Of your group there have only been two slam dunk HOFers, Emlen Tunnell and Ken Houston. It looks like after Houston’s induction in 1986 there was a 13 year dry spell until Paul Krause. Johnny Robinson failed to make the last step to the HOF like 5 or 6 times in the early 80’s. The only thing I can think is they were somehow disappointed that he had no TD’s from the Safety position. In every other way he was great.
I think it’s time to take a different approach on these players who we support who aren’t getting into the HOF yet. Maybe we should start discussing why not? What about them is holding them back? There must be something? A lot of think they are good enough. Maybe they just don’t pop on film? What about a player like Maxie Baughn? How does a 1/9 get from a Championship Team keep getting ignored? I never saw him play so I can’t say. Maybe that’s the problem, the Election Committee is too young?
I think I know why Kenny Anderson isn’t in the HOF. He looked really bad in the middle of his career playing for a bad Team and he’s missing a SB win. Plus the guy had zero charisma on the field. He seemed so stoic. I do think he was better than Joe Namath but for Namath having an iconic SB win for a big market city’s Team he wouldn’t be in.. I still don’t know if I’d put Anderson in the HOF because I don’t think Joe Namath belongs right now. lol I know it’s not fair for Anderson who was one of the better passers in his day but there’s more to being a QB. You have to win big games. Did he win enough of them? I know it’s really close with what he did late in his career. I don’t support him but it’s OK if he gets elected. When you think about 1970’s QB’s he’ll always be a name that comes up.
Paul, the answer to my question about 2nd team all pros; Maxie Baughn has 5 of them to go with his 1/9 profile and it hasn’t helped him.
Tony P; Not a Problem on the saftey breakdown, also with anderson i have him at 4 hof seasons 74 75 81 82 so thats 4/16 seasons would you agree on KA
Like you said TonyP, Anderson has the passing and running skills to put him in the HOF but simply didnt win enough big games to get him over the hump. Maybe he will finally get his chance though Isbell with a five year career may get in first. If Dilweg doesnt make it, Isbell could cancel him or Anderson out and another Packer Sharpe, also warrants attention. We will see because I am thinking Dilweg will be the super-senior represented with the other two players representing the 60s – 80s but past finalists and leftovers of the Blue Ribbon Committee could change things …
Brian W. : is there the possiblity that dilweg isbell and sharpe cancel each other out?
I sometimes forget Ken Anderson was a pretty mobile guy. Yes he had 4 above average years. To look at his stats you’d have to say how isn’t he in the HOF.
I like comparing his stats to HOFer Bob Griese’s. Griese was 34-25 without a running game and 92-56-3 overall. He was a PBer coming out of the gate with an expansion team. I go back to those 4 bad years for Anderson. Stats wise except for one year that didn’t seem to effect his numbers, the sacks weren’t that many. I wanted to say it was all the pressure he was under that made him bad but I don’t think so. If I recall right he just lost confidence and played really bad. He really did become a forgotten QB. I don’t think HOFers should ever really lose it like that. Griese never lost it. Griese had two bad years but the Teams sucked. One was as a struggling expansion team which is forgivable. The other was 1976 which I remember like yesterday. LOL Miami went 6-0 in preseason and than got run over like a train with injuries. It felt like a bunch of careers got cut short. The only bright spot was finding WR Duriel Harris. Griese bounced back to have an All Pro year in 1977. I know he doesn’t rate as high in QB ratings looking back now but anyone who saw him that knew football at the time would have to say he was a HOFer. That said, there is luck involved with where you get Drafted and who’s your Head Coach. Griese wasn’t so talented like Dan Marino that he was destined for it. Anderson’s career was on the right track like Griese’s but after Paul Brown retired he went down the drain a bit. I’m not sure if people can overlook that? Anderson’s play throughout 1981 and into 1982 was the biggest surprise in football. It was remarkable!
There’s another QB who has the opposite problem. Jim Plunkett has the big wins but not the career stats. lol
I think so Robert, because those are three popular players in Packer history and these voters will mostly pull for players from the teams they support rather than overrall history of the league.
Even in 1976 and 1977 Anderson’s stats went down but the Bengals had their chance to win their division over the Steelers but lost crucial games to the Raiders in 76 and Oilers in 77 that gave Pitts the division. From 78-80 Anderson struggled with injuries.
Griese was poised and exciting from the get-go with Miami but had an injury ravaged 1969 season that proved decisive for the franchise because when no other QB stepped up for the team, they decided to go all out for Shula as coach and part owner. Once Warfield joined the team, Griese became a great QB …
Great insight Brian! I kind of figured something had to be going on with Griese in 1969. . I think Csonka was in the same boat with concussions.
Yeah nagging injuries were common. They protect the QB a lot more today. And Jack Lambert thought QB’s were treated like they should were dresses than .LOL
If you could vote on a head coach or contributor to make the class of 2023 TonyP … Who would you select ?
Carroll Rosenbloom, I know he isn’t a current candidate but should be.
https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/state-your-case-does-rosenbloom-s-vision-success-make-him-hof-worthy
Head Coach Marty Schottenheimer and Owner Art Modell.
Final 12 Seniors
Maxie Baughan
Mark Clayton
Roger Craig
Randy Gradishar
Lester Hayes
Chuck Howley
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Tommy Nobis
Sterling Sharpe
Otis Taylor
Everson Walls
Final 12 Prediction …
Dilweg (2020 Finaist)
Gradishar (2020)
Howley
Craig (2020)
Sharpe
Riley
Klecko
Anderson
Nobis (2020)
Isbell (2020)
Baughan
Meador
You’re list is more accurate because I don’t follow current voting status. I’m listing who I think has the best case.
I would think Isbell would be in already if his greatest years weren’t during the War when the League was thin with talent. Dilweg, I don’t know that’s so long ago. lol My perception is he may of been one of the best Ends during his time but how important was the position?
I’d rather see Lemar Parrish’s name being considered than Ken Riley.
Tony P. I agree 100% on Lemar Parrish over Ken Riley im more of a Parrish fan myself brian my question to you is who is the bigger senior snub isbell or dilweg for the packers?
Lewellen actually, but Dilweg as well. The guy was a five time All-Pro with what, 25-27 interceptions ?
Unreal. Isbell was an accomplished passer his final three seasons but didnt do alot his first two years. I just dont believe he played long enough but if he gets voted in, it will possibly help other short career players like Sharpe, Holmes, Scott, Anderson, Jackson, Sestak and others …
Brian im going to give you four names what do you think: Tommy Thompson Roman Gabriel John Brodie John Hadl
I think all four have HOF cases Robert. Thompson led his team to three straight championship games winning back-to-back and was one of the first successful T-Formation QBs, playing with only one good eye. Brodie was the only one of the four who had a losing record as QB but could throw the ball effectively, though not as good as Jurgensen, who made the HOF with a losing record. Hadl won and was a prolific thrower but didnt play well in postseason games. Gabriel had a winning record and hardly ever threw interceptions but couldnt do much in postseason. Will these guys get inducted eventually ? It may be awhile …
Hope you don’t mind me chiming in. I don’t know Tommy Thompson. His stats look decent and the Eagles were great in the 1940’s. I’ve been a supporter of John Brodie for years even though I’m not sure he doesn’t fall a little short. The Dallas Cowboys didn’t help. He was a great guy who was very popular. Roman Gabriel is another one who has had good support but I think his reputation for fumbling is holding him back.
Gabriel has the best stats and was in the best situation with the LA Rams during his prime. It would be splitting hairs to pick the better between Brodie and Gabriel. I’d like to hear from someone who saw both as to the better with the eye test. Gabriel certainly looked the part at 6-5. I remember him with the Eagles. He had such a strong arm. I have a hard time believing the accuracy of sack totals for John Brodie at Pro Reference if he was dropping back to pass so much. John Hadi was a good QB who threw a nice deep ball. I was impressed with his play for one year with the Rams. Ground Chuck was good for him as he could do play action to WR Harold Jackson. I think he would rate 3rd best of the those three.
so now that we cut the list from 25 to 12 who would be in your final 6
Well I’ve learned from Brian so I’ll go with Randy Gradishar, Roger Craig and Tommy Nobis. Than I’ll go my own direction with Sterling Sharpe, Lester Hayes and Bob Kuechenberg,
It’s time for Kooch the winningest player in the history of the NFL this side of Tom Brady to join Langer and Little. I know it’s time for a lot of them. I’m a little surprised Bill Bergey didn’t make the list of 25. I support him.
How many Senior Players go in 2023?
Final 6? Class of 2023 will have 3 seniors
well we can do a cut down to 6 and go a step farther than the and pick the last 3
Just for the record my three is a little strange but here we go
Anderson
Gradishar
Klecko
Dilweg Gradishar Craig
12 semifinalists for each of senior and coach/contributor categories for class of 2023 to be announced this Wednesday July 27th
Heres a possible scenario: Howley Gradishar and Nobis Cancel each other out
My prediction for final 12 in approximate order that I would elect:
1. Dilweg (finalist)
2. Gradishar (finalist)
3. Hayes (finalist)
4. Jacoby
5. Kuechenberg
6. Howley
7. Sharpe
8. Riley
9. Nobis
10. Klecko
11. Meador
12. Craig
Its very possible that over the last decade when we know Nobis, Gradishar and Howley have been among seniors considered by the committee each year that they have cancelled one another out. At some point, and with three seniors to be selected for class of 2023 one finally breaks through-Gradishar and Howley both remain as two of the most deserving seniors, a point voters are very aware of.
I think the trick with these predictions is to move beyond ones personal opinions and attempt to get into the mid of the voters. So my approach was to consider that for 2021 and 2022 the voters decided to elect remaining members of the senior finalists from centennial class. Hence for class of 2023 my prediction (not my preferences or choices) would be Dilweg, Gradishar and Craig
Justin : curious where would lemar parrish have ranked in your list if he was one of the 25 senior semifinalists
Paul Hypothetically if they are sticking with the remaning centennial nominees could they poss do Gradishar Craig Nobis
Yep submitted post earlier but guess it didn’t appear – my prediction is Dilweg Gradishar and Craig as committee elected other two remaining centennial finalists last two years
I was thinking Paul what if they did let’s say next year dilweg emerson wistert
Finalist announcement today at 1 p EDT
The fact that Wistert and Emerson didn’t even make 25 semifinalists this year doesn’t bode well for their future prospects
The Seniors Committee has reduced its list of Finalists for the Class of 2023 to 12.
Ken Anderson
Maxie Baughan
Randy Gradishar
Chuck Howley
Cecil Isbell
Joe Klecko
Bob Kuechenberg
Eddie Meador
Tommy Nobis
Ken Riley
Sterling Sharpe
Everson Walls
Isbell over Dilweg …
No Craig either … Only Gradishar, Nobis and Isbell from 2020 BRP …
hmmm surprised to see Isbell over Dileg (and also perhaps Walls over Hayes) but otherwise its a sound solid 12.
but means I need to change my prediction to: Gradishar, Riley, Klecko with Howley, Meador and Sharpe as wildcards
The Coach/Contributor Committee’s list of Finalists has been reduced to 12. One will be selected as class of 2023 nominee via committee Zoom meeting on Aug27-with odds on favorite, Robert Kraft who apparently was 2nd in voting for class of 2022 contributors nominee.
Roone Arledge
Don Coryell
Mike Holmgren
Frank “Bucko” Kilroy
Robert Kraft
Art Modell
Buddy Parker
Dan Reeves
Art Rooney Jr.
Mike Shanahan
Clark Shaughnessy
John Wooten
Revised 2023 Senior Wishlist
Howley
Gradishar
Meador
2023 Predictions
Gradishar
Klecko
Riley
Same as your’s Paul. I forgot about Meador and chose Sharpe on PFJ but revised on here …
Had the feeling Isbell and Sharpe would cancel out Dilweg …
Robert: I strongly prefer Parrish to Riley, which I’ve explained before on this cite. INT numbers are often a sign a CB is being “picked on” especially when there is a better player on the other side of the field. I think that is exactly what happened with Riley/Parrish. That said, 65 is A LOT of INTs and I respect people’s opinion that Riley is HOF worthy.
Regarding the list, I’m disappointed (3 of my top 4 didn’t advance). I don’t understand Isbell over Dilweg (or many other super seniors). I’m also solidly against Anderson (and Isbell) because QBs are already significantly over-represented in the Hall. For example, in 1973 (Anderson’s third season), there were 11 HOF QBs on NFL rosters (Blanda, Unitas, Dawson, Jurgensen, Tarkenton, Namath, Griese, Staubach, Bradshaw, Stabler, and Fouts). Do we really believe there was a 12th HOF QB playing that year (the league only had 26 teams).
This is the same reason that I am very lukewarm on Craig as RBs are also extremely over-represented in the Hall.
I’m also frankly floored by Walls over Hayes (other than Raiders fatigue, which is somewhat understandable)
Finally, I know I’m biased as a Washington fan, but I can’t understand why Jacoby doesn’t get more traction. He was a better player at a more important position than his teammate Grimm. A similar thing has happened with Kuechenberg, who had the misfortune to play significantly longer than his fellow Dolphins line mates in the Hall).
I’ll adjust my prediction to Gradishar, Kuechenberg, and Sharpe (on the assumption that two LBs is unlikely). All three are worthy. It would be a fine set for the first expanded seniors class.
Marty Ball missing amongst coaches …
I knew Modell (ugh) and Rooney jr would survive the cut … Lets go Parker or Coryell but predict Kraft
As an eight time senior finalist could Kooch be the darkhorse ?
I like Klecko and his blue collar toughness but over Brito, Katcavage, Martin, Gastineau and others ?
I dunno … a similar story to Hampton.
Hit on 9/12 Missed on Isbell Sharpe Walls
Justin if they go with Gradishar Kuchenberg Sharpe id Be happy with that and in fairness to the qbs you mentioned unitas blanda jurgensen were near the end of the line
Brian: Lets get Klecko in first and then we will focus on gastineau
Robert: I assumed someone would point out that the list of 1973 QBs included several older players. But in Anderson’s rookie season of 1971, there were still 11 HOF QBs on NFL rosters (same QB with Starr replacing Fouts). My point being that there are glut of QBs from this era already…whether because of the NFL/AFL split, voters overvaluing this time period, etc. In fact, Anderson’s best argument for enshrinement might be that he was one of the best QBs in the league in 1981-82 when there were a lot less great QBs–the only HOFers playing those years were Bradshaw, Stabler, Montana, and Fouts. Of course, that might also explain why Anderson was considered one of the better QBs, it was just a cyclical period of down QB play until the famed class of 1983 QBs showed up. Either way, some QB has to be considered “the best not in the HOF.” I think Anderson is an appropriate person for that designation, at least until Eli Manning becomes eligible. I would hate Anderson’s induction to then open the door for even lesser QBs such as Esiason, Brodie, and Gabriel.
On a more positive note, the list of finalists is appropriately weighted heavily toward defense with 8 of the 12 finalists playing on that side of the ball. That is a welcome development for me.
agreed justin im glad to see them go the defensive route with 8 of the 12 does this mean they go 2/3 on defense and 1 offense
I’m struggling with the fixation on Ken Riley. I know he had a lot of INTs and that’s a big deal, but no pro bowls. Very light on honors. More importantly, Lemar Parrish was on the other side of the field – 8 pro bowls, several all-pros, a ton of TDs, good special teams player…what am I missing? I feel like Riley is definitely going to make it whether it’s this year or not….but his superior teammate can’t get a sniff from the Hall. I dont want to disrespect Riley, but am I missing something?
Disappointed by the tackle situation. I think Jacoby was a more dominant player than Russ Grimm, and I think George Kunz and Mike Kenn are deserving too. Isbell and no Dilweg just screams ignorance. Anyway, I think Howley, Gradishar and Meador are the three most deserving (especially the first two) but I won’t get my hopes up.
Jeff: if they do howley and gradishar this year id be shocked but the most likely outcome is one of them
Jeff on the other hand if they do both gradishar and howley and 1 other player id be happy
reminder that 12 member senior committee will meet via Zoom on Tues August 16th to select their three senior nominees for class of 2023, coach-contributor committee will do same to select their one nominee on Tues August 23rd
Great points guys, especially from Justin about the QBs but I disagree on Gabriel. I feel he has just as much a case as Anderson. He was an MVP and could have been in 1969 as well. He was futile in big games like Anderson but had a good winning pct with the Rams. What hurts him was joining a bad Eagles team, though he helped receivers Carmichael and Young become good players. He was strong and tended to fumble but hardly ever threw interceptions and ran a ball control offense that helped the Rams defense. If you take away his first four years, while the Rams coaches and ownership were deciding on a QB and his last four years, where he was injury prone due to a crappy Eagles offensive line, he has a good case but like Anderson, couldnt win the championship.
Sorry Robert but though Klecko was better against the run than Gastineau, he wasnt nearly the pass rusher having only two seasons of double-digit sacks. Consistently good but does that make him a HOF player ?
Not to sound controversial but some of these sports writers love to hype up certain white players who could keep them laughing, though Klecko appealed to the blue collar Jets fans that thought Gastineau was too eccentric. The Bears fans and beat writers felt the same way about Hampton, who like Klecko, gave 100% but both players became too injury prone. If he makes it, I will be happy for him but I would choose other DE’s over him and nose tackles like Smerlas, Baumhower and Johnson as well …
How does Gabriel have just as much a case as Anderson who also led league in season passing yards 2x, pass completion % three times in his career and in pass rating 4x times in career? Achievements Gabriel does not have, sure seems like Anderson had a much higher career peak
Boy Brian do i disagree with you on gastineau 110%
but not for the reasons you think brian heres some opinions i found about gastineau and the reason hes not in the hall :
Mark Gastineau was hated by the media…and many players. He was a fucking asshole even during a time when a lot of players where major assholes. With social media and sponsorship $$ today, players on average are tremendously nice.
Mark was mostly hated by fellow players. It was a combination of him being a fucking tool on the field, an asshole off the field, and most likely a huge steroid user. There were plenty of roid users, but with Gastineau it just made everyone hate him a bit more.
Gastineau’s career was, relative to the times, pretty quick. No longevity award and that often matters with the Hall.
Gastineau’s numbers put him near the Hall, but they are not massive enough that he is a lock.
Gastineau wasn’t respected as a guy who must be in the Hall to tell the story of the NFL. He was not a guy anyone thought could dominate no matter what team he was on. Many give credit to the system and evaluate Mark as a pretty good (sometimes great) NFL player, but not one of the best ever over history.
To be sure, Gastineau dominated across 2 seasons in the NFL. He was great across another 3-4 seasons.
Your right Robert but Gastineau was a skilled pass rusher and better against the run than was perceived. Asshole or not, he still could get to the QB better than Klecko, who was better against the run …
Anderson did lead in major catergories and statistics Paul but he had much better talent around him on offense than did Gabriel. While George Allen liked ball control, Paul Brown and Walsh liked to throw it and Anderson did a good job. I just believe both have just as much a case as the other and both got hurt more later in their careers. Were they dominant ? No, but had some great seasons that the team couldnt take advantage of.
Fair and valid point Brian , My next question for mr wolf is what does he think is keeping dilweg from the hall
I have two possible combinations of 3 see which one you like
Combination 1 Combination 2 Coach/Contributor Don Coryell
Randy Gradishar Ken Anderson Randy Gradishar Eddie Meador
Joe Klecko
Eddie Meador
ok that was posted by mistake it should read
Combination 1: Randy Gradishar Joe Klecko Ed Meador Contributor : Buddy Parker
Combination 2; Randy Gradishar Joe Klecko Bob Kuechenberg Contributor : Don Coryell
Prefer combination two because I prefer Kuechenberg to Meador. Both Parker and Coryell are getting in eventually so the order seems largely irrelevant since both men have passed away.
Kooch would be a safe, easy pic being an eight-time finalist but hope youre right Justin … Parker and Coryell are due …
Getting back to your question Robert, other great Packer players are keeping down Dilweg. Lewellen for years, now Isbell and Sharpe. He continues to fall through the cracks because other players just cancel him out. Dowler, Dale, Gillingham and Forrester all have cases as well and Sharpe has a great chance to make it these next three years.
i agree Brian on the theory on why dilweg lewellen have been kept out the other packers cancel them out
Justin and I see eye to eye. lol Sterling Sharpe, Randy Gradishar and Bob Kuechenberg would be my picks for the same reason. Y’all’s previous comments got on me Sharpe’s side. lol No disrespect to Chuck Howley and Tommy Nobis but I think these three may be the most deserving. I know I’m a homer for Dolphins. :) I’d go with Art Modell as a contributor. He sure picked a great player evaluator in HOF player Ozzie Newsome.
Justin sounds like my kind of grader. lol I don’t understand Russ Grimm either. But I’m not on but I’m on the fence with Jacoby. As discussed I’m not for Anderson. I get what he’s saying about QB’s but other than Namath and maybe Blanda and Stabler I’m not sure who you would remove from the HOF. Knowing how he feels about RB’s too I’d be interested how he feels about OJ Anderson who I support?
Could there be a possibility that two of the lbs cancel each other out
I’m of the opinion that if a QB and RB are still on the ballot after 25-30 years then they’re probably not a HOFer. Those positions get elected quickly.
Whether he makes the HOF are not, Anderson is one of the best not to make it …
I am thinking now that one linebacker per year will get elected among the seniors … Hopefully, Howley before or after Gradishar … They just cancel each other out otherwise and an offensive player will get voted in …
Ryan Kerrigan retired today . He was a 4 time Pro Bowler with 95 sacks which gives him all time Redskin lead. . A heck of a player. I thought he was a D-Lineman but they say OLB. That’s a lot of sacks for the position.
We’ll Ottis Anderson looked like a HOF player with a bad team for his first seven years to me. And he transformed himself after a serious injury into a key part of a SB winner in the end. Someone needs to take a good look at his skills. Some of these guys on bad teams get overlooked IMO.
If they cancel each other out here are four options that they could go with see which one you like gang
Option 1. Klecko Kuechenberg Meador
Option 2. Baughan Klecko Kuechenberg
Option 3. Kuechenberg Meador Riley
Option 4; Anderson Baughan Meador
RTG – Always possible that candidates with similar profiles will cancel each other out–whether they be players from the same franchise, from the same position, from the same era, etc.–but increasing the finalists to 3 should, in theory, severely cut down on this problem. In short, a player does not have to finish with the most votes, he just has to finish in the top 3. ideally, the committee would use “rank choice” voting (top player gets 10 points, second 8, third 6, etc.) because it protects against a middle of the road candidate surviving based on congestion, but that is probably too complicated for this process.
TonyP – I do not support Ottis Anderson. He had a spectacular rookie season, a few very good seasons to follow, and a lot of well below average seasons. That is not a HOF back to me. For example, in his 1000 season in New York, his yards per carry was 3.1. That is well below league average, which typically hovers just below 4.0. In short, the Giants were actually hurting themselves by giving him so many carriers versus simply giving the ball to a replacement level player. Of course, the Giants’ defense was outrageous, which means they could live with a grind it out offense. [Incidentally, this is why I’m also not in favor of Simms, who was a league average QB who was over-drafted, gained notoriety only because he played in New York, and was asked to do very little for the team to win.] Even if we treat him as a “short career” guy, he falls short of Sayers and Davis. Terrell Davis had three seasons over 1500 yards, and four seasons averaging at least 4.5 y/c (including leading the league at 5.1 y/c in his 2000 yard season). Anderson had one season over 1500 (his rookie year), and only two seasons averaging 4.5 y/c (his first two). After that, Anderson was effectively replacement level. Anderson’s candidacy reminds me a little of Eddie George. Good totals, average y/c, probably over used. Steady, but not spectacular. Except George was more steady for longer. Outside of Anderson’s rookie season, another good comp is Matt Forte, except Forte was definitely more explosive. In short, Anderson is a nice back, who racked up a ton of yards, won a Super Bowl (in which he played a significant role), but is not an all time great. No shame in that career. Much, much better than most.
On a recent podcast with Bengals fans, both John Turney (PFJ) and Clark Judge (voter)- neither of whom are on seniors committee but clearly have connections with voters and those on committee-were cautious on their praise for Ken Riley but both mentioned Gradishar and Howley as very strong possibilities. I still remain uncertain that both will be among the three but remain confident that one will be and situation of them canceling each out and Nobis or Baughan slipping in seems very unlikely. Seniors with the best chances for class of 2023 remain Gradishar, Howley, Riley, Klecko, Kuechenberg Meador with Walls and Cecil Isbell as wildcards-really feel pretty good that 3 will come from those 6+2. Sometimes its easily to get caught up in all the possibilities and what ifs while losing sight of buzz around certain candidates. To those watching, Pearson and Branch really were not surprise (yet many of us missed on both), this year besides the 6 I just named there simply does not seem to be buzz on others at this stage with the meeting just over two weeks away on Aug 16th.
Sorry missed another one with some recent “buzz”… Bob Kuechenberg, so make the list 7 for 3 slots
the final six for me is Gradishar Howley Klecko Kuechenberg Meador Riley ill be announcing my final 3 next Monday
Justin: im with you on ottis anderson 100% never really had a string of dominant seasons to make him hof worthy
Klecko was a way better football player than Gastineau and should have been in the hall long ago, but I could say the same about Roger Craig and he did not even make the final 12. Kraft is my choice for the Contributor that is going in next
Here is my prediction on the final 6
1. Chuck Howley
2. Randy Gradishar
3. Sterling Sharpe
4. Joe Klecko
5. Eddie Meador
6. Ken Anderson
not sure why we would predict a final 6 when we won’t even know who they are???
Like I’ve reviewed before, I think 1975 through about 1985 had the best collection of great RB’s the NFL has ever seen. Anderson had the misfortune of playing on a really crummy team. And they used him as much as any RB was ever used for 6 seasons.
His low average with the Giants was due to being used as a short yardage specialist. He’s exactly what they needed. He was money for first downs and TD’s collecting 33 TD’s over 3 years. He was also the best thing the Giants had going in a SB win with 21 carries and 102 at 35 years old. Larry Csonka had a similar low average the last half of his career but if anyone saw him in his last year he was damn good with a sub 4 ypc.
Average yards doesn’t always tell the story. It depends on how a player is being used. When Anderson lost a step in part from the beating he took with the Cardinals he transformed himself into a battering ram when everyone said he was washed up. Not one other team would take a chance on the 30 something year old
He should have retired when everyone said he was washed up and he would have got more HOF consideration? He’s one of 10 players with over 10,000 years rushing yards and has a very respectable 81 TD’s. I will give you he isn’t a slam dunk but IMO he’s deserving. Anderson showed he could do it all at a HOF level. And if they can make room for Floyd Little so can they O.J. Anderson. When he can on the seen I thought I was looking at a bigger version of O.J. Simpson. He sure had the moves!
Sorry i saw a stat that was wrong and wrote it. There have been 31 RB’s with 10,000 yards!!! One other thing is I have to wonder how good the Giants OL was if this man is only getting 3.1 ypc? The plan for the season was for O.J. to split time with rookie 1st round draft pick Rodney Hampton who had 455 yards with a 4.2 ypc in 109 rushes. Still they gave Anderson 225 carries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rH8oK4JakQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Qya1uVY4o
Great call on Anderson TonyP … He was an excellent receiver as well with the Cards … He would have easily made the HOF without that 1985 knee injury …
Paul: the last 6 are just a hypothetical they will just reduce to three i was just doing a hypothetical cutdown from 12 to 6
Voters will do series of cutdowns but not sure if it’s 12-6-3 or 12-5-3 and whether we will know the 5 or 6. New process so we will have to see what is made public about voting process and results leading up to final 3 nominees
im thinking with 12 paul 12-6-3 would make the most sense btw gang im warming up to Cecil Isbell
Robert, I kinda struggle with Cecil Isbell being in the mix. Great player, but five years as a QB is really brief. It bothers me that the committee seems to have honed in on him as the only guy pre-1960 who’s worth a serious look this year (ahead of guys like Dilweg, Lewellen, Emerson, Wistert etc – players who clearly belong in the hall).
Sorry I’m off topic but wanted to know y’all’s thoughts. Do you think the NFL HOF voters care if players used steroids? Certainly not much in the past but maybe more today? Almost all this information is from By Brent Schrotenboer
STAFF WRITER for Elite Fitness in 2008.
“The San Diego Union-Tribune has done its own “Mitchell Report” of sorts on performance-enhancing drugs in pro football. The baseball Mitchell Report had 85 names going back to about 1993. The accompanying list has 185 names linked to such drug use dating to 1962 and also 85 names since 1993. It includes 52 former Pro Bowl players and four Hall of Famers.”
Here’s a list of the more accomplish players recorded as using them. And if they say they “only used them in college or briefly” I really wonder?
“Team strength coach Alvin Roy (1963), who studied Russian weightlifting, gave players Dianabol steroids in cereal bowls, according to players, as part of mandatory regimen and may have introduced them into the league. He later worked for Kansas City, Dallas and Oakland before dying in 1979.”
OT Ron Mix – took Roy’s steroid pills for about five weeks.
CB Deion Sanders (2005) tested positive for steroid-related substance before rejoining the league. He said it was in medication he was taking to treat an injured ankle
OT Todd Steussie (2004) was given prescriptions for banned substances shortly before Super Bowl in 2004 and reportedly filled prescriptions made by South Carolina doctor James Shortt after joining Tampa Bay.
TE Wesley Walls (2002), another Shortt customer, named in court files as having obtained banned substances from him.
DE Julius Peppers (2002) suspended for four games after testing positive for ephedra. He was leading the league with 10 sacks at the time.
OT Jimbo Covert (early 1980s) said he experimented with steroids in college at Pitt.
OL Ron Yary (1982) told Omaha World-Herald that because of rampant use in the league, he tried performance-enhancing drugs the summer before his last season.
MIAMI
SS Rodney Harrison (2007) suspended four games for violating steroid-related policy. Shipment of HGH reportedly delivered to him in weeks leading up to Super Bowl in 2004. He said it was to heal injuries.
DE Mark Gastineau (1980s) in 2000 admitted having used steroids.
DL Joe Klecko (1979-81) said he took steroids in offseason for strong-man contests, according to book by Charles Yesalis.
Walt Sweeney 2/9 – said regular use of drugs and steroids led him to addiction. In legal case, a judge awarded him $1.8 million in benefits and attorney’s fees from NFL pension fund.
OL Bill Fralic 2/4 HOF All 80’s Team- said he used steroids in college at Pitt. He later told U.S. Senate committee that as much as 75 percent of NFL linebackers, linemen and tight ends have used steroids.
DE Deacon Jones was fined $3,000.
DL Coy Bacon was fined $2,000.
SS Rodney Harrison (2007) suspended four games for violating steroid-related policy. Shipment of HGH reportedly delivered to him in weeks leading up to Super Bowl in 2004. He said it was to heal injuries.
DL Lyle Alzado (1971-85) became poster boy for steroid and HGH use in the NFL. He blamed his brain tumor on his use of those drugs. He died at 43 in 1992. He said he starting taking steroids in 1969.
DL John Matuszak (1970s) died at 38 in 1989 after life of partying, including drug use and suspected steroid use.
OL Mike Webster (1970s/’80s). In suit against NFL pension fund, statements from doctors said Webster experimented with steroids. Died in 2002 at age 50.
LB Bill Romanowski (2003) tested positive for the designer steroid THG. He later told “60 Minutes” he used steroids and HGH.
DL Dana Stubblefield (2003) tested positive for designer steroid THG. In 2008, he pleaded guilty to making false statements to a federal agent about taking performance-enhancing drugs such EPO and “the clear.”
DE Fred Dryer (around 1965) used steroids to get bigger in junior college. “I was told if I wanted to get better and gain weight I’d better (use steroids),” he told Parade Magazine.
CB Jason Sehorn (2002) said he continued to use ephedra after NFL banned it, until the league started testing for it.
RB Chuck Muncie (1984) failed drug test when amphetamines and other drugs were found in his system after trade to Miami. The failed drug test canceled the trade. Team psychiatrist Arnold Mandell (early 1970s) prescribed amphetamines to team, leading to the following amphetamines crackdown by the NFL: In April 1974, coach Harland Svare was fined $5,000 for failing to exercise proper supervisory controls over amphetamine and drug use on team in 1973.
Plenty of rumors floated around players in 70s including Steelers Cowboys and Raiders PFHOFers but rumors weren’t enough to influence the voters.
ill admit Jeff im a little baffled that they went with isbell as the super senior instead of dilweg wistert emerson vl his 5 year career def hurts him a lot
Paul, I guess it’s really a non issue because they were legal. I had forgotten that. I believe they were acceptable because of the brutality of the game. It’s like do what it takes to get on the field.
I was kind of thinking it was the case that so many were doing it in the 70’s and 80’s that people didn’t care because the playing field was equal but who knows how many users there were. Some of the players seemed to think it was really high.
Former DPoy Lyle Alzado 2/2 was very good with 112 sacks and a real motor. Has he ever been given serious consideration for the HOF?
I find it interesting that Walt Sweeney with his profile is passed over and his use is well documented. I wonder why?
This is an interesting article about a couple of players on the list. Sounds like Fralic maybe should get more consideration for the HOF. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-11-16-8603260444-story.html
For me it’s hard to pick who was better between Klecko and Gastineau. I guess you can say Klecko had a little better career and deserves credit for playing NT at a high level but for 6 years Gastineau really delivered at the DE position. He was a star. Maybe his antics diminish his view as a player a little? I would put Gastineau in the HOF first and Klecko to follow but as long as both make it I’m fine.
It’s kind of like picking who was better between Clayton and Duper. Maybe a slight edge to Clayton but Pro Reference has their AV as dead even and I like Duper more. I wouldn’t want to put one in the HOF and not the other. They both deserve it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4HwxnH5yWc
if you think it’s the case you include players that are hard to omit when it comes to telling the history of NFL you might want to. Mario was the most prolific passer of is time and to not include and of his Wide Receiver’s seems a little odd. I think the pressure’s building for one. Clayton’s numbers jump out more but I like the deeper threat. Super Duper was a cheetah. :)
I watched all 64 Mark Duper TD’s . My goodness Marino and those receivers were good!! LOL Duper ran away from everyone with his 4.25 speed. A lot like Cliff Branch.
Tony P: ive often wondered about gastineau what if he didnt retire at 32 and play another 4-5 years at that level
Duper and Clayton definitely were a dangerous tandem but in their early seasons with Marino they benefitted greatly from underrated veteran Nat Moore who soaked up coverage going over the middle. The Dolphins had some good pass catching tight ends as well and Tony Nathan was a valuable member of their offense. Once Nathan, Moore and others retired, Duper and Clayton werent quite the same as other teams got better defensively and bigger in coverage size. Great careers, especially Clayton getting into the endzone but just short for me for the HOF. Had Nat Moore not played during the dead ball era from 1974-77 and had Marino his entire career, he would have made the HOF in my opinion … very underrated.
Lots of opinions about Klecko and Gastineau but there are more defensive linemen out there that deserve the HOF over those two. Harvey Martin is unofficially the all-time leader in postseason sacks not to mention having 114 over his career and helped his team go to three SB games. Jim Katcavage for the Giants helped his team play in six championship games and has between 92-115 career sacks because no one knows his numbers his first four seasons in the league. You guys know my thoughts on Gene Brito but Bubba Baker and Cedrick Hardman were just as good at getting to the QB as Mark Gastineau. Jethro Pugh and George Andrie for Dallas had many sacks as well but competed in an era that had Deacon Jones, Merlin Olsen, Bob Lilly, Willie Davis, early Bubba Smith, Bill Glass(underrated) Alex Karras, Roger Brown and Rich Jackson before he was hurt. People mentioned Alzado, who had a great career and Bill Gregory labored for a bad Giants team. Had Bill Stanfill not been injured, his career would have included more All-Pro selections as well.
Klecko will get voted in but these other linemen deserve to be heard as well.
Yeah, Gastineau retired during the season to take care of his wife to be who had cancer. I remember the prime time interview. He was leading the League with 7 sacks at the time after two injury plagued seasons. Based on what we’ve seen recently maybe they can look past a little bit of a short career. NFL Network rated him the 8th best pass rusher of all time.
Brian are you thinking of Jack Gregory
also brian the johnson you are mentioning are you referring to gary big hands johnson
Good points Brian. I thought Nat Moore was one of the best WR’s in the League. Miami had a lot of weapons. Keith Jackson was a good one and Jenson too. The eye test for me would put Duper and Clayton in the HOF but you may be right. Their diminutive size did hold them back at times in their careers.
I have to think Jethro Pugh had sack numbers from the DT position better than some in the HOF.
Yes Robert, Jack Gregory but the Johnson was Charlie Johnson of the Eagles, one of the first full- time nose tackles. Undersized and underrated. Gary Johnson with the Chargers had many sacks as well at DT …
gotcha brian thanks for the clarification on which johnson you were talking about
A 1/4 Defensive Tackle went into the HOF today. One would think it would be hard to deny 5/6 Kevin Williams? I’m starting to think accolades aren’t so important with 0/4 Isaac Bruce, 0/4 Harold Carmichael, Sam Mills 1/5 and 0/3 Dick LeBeau going into the HOF and now the chances for 1/0 Ken Riley. Riley isn’t a HOFer just because he played 15 years and collected a bunch of INT’s. . LOL That gives everyone I like a good chance. :)
It’s time for 0/2 Jack “Hacksaw” Reynolds AV 103 to hear his name called. Someone other than Merlin Olson and Jack Youngblood needs to be in the HOF from those great Rams’ Defenses of the 70’s. And Reynolds was a big part of Joe Montana getting his first SB win in San Fran.
im sorry tony p im going to have to vehemently disagree with you 1000% with riley
That’s Ok we can disagree. :)
For me when I watched Riley for all those years nothing said HOF to me. The announcers who did his games never raved about him. And I haven’t heard hardly any support for him here over the last 13 years. Maybe I didn’t see him enough? I would see him 3-4 games a year. If there’s such a thing as a sneaky or quiet 65 INT’s he did it. Can you say 0/3 Dick LeBeau? At least he had 3 straight Pro Bowls in his prime. I agree with what someone said that they tended to throw away from Parrish. No doubt Riley had good hands. If he gets in fine at least he has a leg to stand on with INT’s better than some lol but I wouldn’t vote for him just like I wouldn’t vote for 0/3 Coy Bacon even if he does have 130 sacks.. He’s not a HOF player IMO.
A lot depend on position (stats) and whether senior or modern candidate, but history shows the value of multiple all pro plus all decade team selections, yes Mills is a clear exception there but his is rare case, lets look closely at class of 2021 and 2022 players:
Fanaca (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Johnson (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Lynch (multiple first team all pro)
Manning (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Pearson (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Woodson (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Boselli (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Branch (multiple first team all pro)
Butler (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Mills (one first team all pr, USLF career??)
Seymour (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Young (one first team all pro, all decade)
And if we look at likely class of 2023 modern contenders:
JThomas (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Revis (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Ware (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
ZThomas (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
AJohnson (multiple first team all pro)
Barber (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
Freeney (multiple first team all pro, all decade)
And the likely class of 2023 senior contenders
Howley (multiple first team all pro, SB MVP)
Gradishar (multiple first team all pro, DPOY)
Isabell (one first team all pro, all decade)
Sharpe (multiple first team all pro)
Klecko (multiple first team all pro, DPOY)
Riley (none!)
Fair Enough tony on riley: you mentioned LB Jack Reynolds AV 103 as a possible nominee would you consider LB Isiah Robertson AV 131 for the hof
also Tony would you consider someone like a Lemar Parrish AV 122
Good post Paul. Note Ken Riley was an All Pro in 1983 his last year and probably should have been in 3 Pro Bowls. He made 2nd Team AP twice but not PB. He was second team all decade also. I still wouldn’t vote for him. lol
I’ve been a big supporter of Isiah Robertson for years on this site. Larry Brooks was a heck of a player too. The Vikings Matt Blair is another one I like. He’s the best I’ve ever seen at blocking Field Goals.
On it’s face Lemar Parrish looks to have a really good argument. I like what he did with the Redskins. I can’t say as much about the Bengals but that’s because I don”t think people threw his way. He likely was very skilled to get traded back in those days. I know he was a hell of a kick returner. Really it’s hard to understand why a player like him isn’t being considered. The Bengals also traded a LB I support in 2/5 Bill Bergey.
About the Redskins, they had a heck of a secondary with HOFer Ken Houston, should be HOFer Jake Scott, PBer Joe Lavender and All Pro Lemar Parrish. The only problem was the rest of the team was the “Over the Hill Gang” for a little too long. LOL The 1978 team was really long in the tooth but the ’79 Team got a little younger with Monte Coleman, the Diesel was at home, Theisman was finally learned how to play QB in the NFL and Parrish had his best year as a pro. I think Dave Butz was and is very under rated as a DT. Maybe at his size they expected more? He was a key player when the Redskins got good in the 1980’s IMO.
I knew Richard Seymour would get in and didn’t oppose but it’s curious his low sack numbers. Maybe someone knows why?
I think this HOF Class was really weak but had some great stories and high character people. Several years ago I would not of voted Boselli in but when Jimbo Covert got in it cleared the way. I wanted Seymour to wait and I guess he did long enough. I didn’t support Leroy Butler though I know many did. I also didn’t support Young or Mills even though they were exempliary professionals. I supported Dick Vermeil and Cliff Branch. Basically I supported 3 of the 7 who go in so I say a weak Class. :)
You know since Dick LeBeau is in the HOF I can see a path for Riley. I’m sorry but the Hall of Fame isn’t what it used to be to me. It’s turning into the NBA. If you’re liked by the right people you have a good shot. I knew Sam Mills would get in because he was incredibly popular within the League (Dick Lebeau, Floyd Little, Emmitt Thomas) and his story lent itself to empathy. Same thing with Bryant Young’s courageous story of overcoming a gruesome injury. No I can’t say definitively they don’t deserve the honor but to me the line appears to be getting too blurry on what a HOFer is. At least Baseball’s HOF is still hardcore. You have to be great or have a great career!! No I’m not going to do what Bachslunch did and throw in the towel. LOL I’m just saying. :)
Tony P: according to my hof av senior rankings i have Robertson at 9, ,Bergey at 37 ,Reynolds 69, Blair 122 Larry Brooks 168. if theres any others you can think of let me know and i will show you where they are ranked
Richard Seymour had low sack numbers because for the better part of his career he was a gap defender. The Patriots defense was designed for interior lineman to hit the gaps, which often took two defenders and their DE’s are supposed to set the edge, as opposed to just running for the QB on most downs. The linebackers the players that were supposed to make the plays. Many of Seymour’s sacks, were bull rushes in which he over powered the Center/Guard Double team.
Easily the best defender on those SB winning teams for the Patriots.
opps misssed that one first team all pro for Ken Riley, but no one is counting a PFR second team all decade as meaningful in these discussions.
He has a week resume but support from some voters which will eventually get him elected, very possible in 2023
Thank you for explaining Bill. I figured it had something to do with scheme. Seymour did pass the eye test for me. Yup, LB’s thrived in the Patriot system. I liked Mike Vrabel though they all were really good. He has just about the same number of sacks so that backs up what you are saying.
My opinion is the voters may put too much emphasis on first team all decade. The people who decide that don’t always get right and sometimes the position is weak on excellence for the decade.
For Isiah Roberston to get drafted 10th overall in 1971 from Southern he must have been some talent in college. I think he got a little side tracked later in his career with the drugs. But I remember him still being really good with the Bills. I would think he has a shot at the HOF but time is ticking for those 1970’s players.
Robert I’m not sure what you mean with those AV numbers, 9? Is that Robertson’s rank of AV 131 out of all LB’s who aren’t in the HOF or all time ? Where do you go to see that? I like that stat. Of course AV doesn’t tell you if someone is a HOF player but it’s a good gauge of a career. Clay Matthews is a good example. I tell you with Sam Mills going in I don’t see how they can leave 0/4 Clay Matthews out now. His sack total is impressive for a LB and we know what kind of tackler he was. I wasn’t for him but I’m warming up now. LOL Of course he played forever and I don’t like rewarding a guy for that though it’s impressive in such a vicious game. Jim Marshall was the same. Both come up short IMO but if people talk enough about them it could happen.
tony p thats my rankings by using av and thats for all seniors if you want ill be happy to show you my top 100
perhaps Matthews Jr does get in one day, but at this point he’s clearly at back of senior LB queue which has seen 4 others advance into senior finalist list (Gradishar, Howley, Nobis, Baughan) and senior committee is not going to elect a LB every year as there are many other players from other positions more deserving-so he could have decade wait or longer; note: the aforementioned senios 4 LBs have each waited DECADES
Paul: Besides Gradishar Howley Nobis Baughan who is also head of Matthews jr im thinking maybe Curtis Grantham Stratton?
I thought 5-time PBer Lee Roy Jordan was one of the very best MLB in the early 1970’s. I never see his name on a list. I mentioned 2/6 Robertson, 1/6 Blair and 2/5 Bergey.
The Raiders 0/4 Phil Villiapiano, Vikings 0/4 Jeff Siemon and Broncos 1/3 Tom Jackson were all good LB’s. I can’t think of any other high accolades ones though. Bob Matheson was a key member of the Dolphins for whom the 53 defense was made famous but he never went to a PB. The Bears Doug Buffone was also really good but never went to a PB. Dallas 0/3 Bob Breuning was decent. Jack Lambert, Randy Gradishar, Ted Hendricks and Robert Brazile gobbled up the rest of the accolades.
Not a LB but a player but someone I remember who was good was 1/4 DT Jerry Sherk of the Browns. I like seeing the unofficial sacks now on Pro Reference. They have him with 12 sacks in 10 games one year. He didn’t make the PB and only had an AV of 4 which seems odd. Another really good one who had a short career was DT Mike Reid.
You must have done your homework to compile such a list Robert. :)
Yes Tony I have Done my Homework as always and i m with you on jerry sherk 100%
Let’s not forget about Bill Bergey, Karl Mecklinburg, Wilbur Marshall and Andy Russell. Not to Mention Probably Cornelius Bennett in the near future.
I’ve got Bergey covered. lol He looked like a HOFer to me but maybe his time with Cinncy sinks him?
I never have bought into 0/7 RLB Andy Russell as a HOFer. I think he was important for Steelers player morale and very good. I know they played different LB positions but I would like to know how his film compares to HOF MLB Nick Buoniconti?
Maybe Robert knows how many outside LB’s who played primarily before 1975 made the HOF? I don’t think it’s it’s very many.
I support 3/6 Karl Mecklenburg for the HOF as a sack specialist from the OLB position. He also got into a impressive number of tackles. He gets in by a nose for me.
2/3 Wilbur Marshall comes up short to me. He could be all world at times. It worked out OK with a SB win but I thought he should have stayed with the Bears. At 25 years old it was show me the money! lol And the Bears didn’t. Maybe they knew something because he only made one Pro Bowl the rest of his career.
Reminder that PFHOF will announce the seniors committee choices of three nominees for class of 2023 on this Tuesday (Aug 16) in late afternoon.
im terms of oustide linebackers the only one that i could find is bobby bell that played prior to 1975, Chuck Bednarik was also listed at olb but he was a two way player if you recall, Also as Steelers fan im not high on Russell like every other steelers fan out there, I am high on mecklenburg for reasons you stated and in terms of marshall i think he just peeterd out
Please let this be the year Howley and Baughan are selected.
Corey: if they went that scenario with baughan and howley as 2/3 id be very happy like you
I’d be fine with those guys.
I think this is one of the better lists the NFL Network has done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zwq7m4Mba4
That said, there’s a couple of D-Lineman who could have maybe made the list. I don’t know who I would take off though. And as I understand it Tommy Nobis hit almost as hard as Dick Butkus and must have been feared. Bill Bergey hit hard to and was feared. Brian Dawkins was ferocious hitter too.
By Ray Didinger
CSNPhilly.com “Bill Bergey (1974-80) Opponents feared him and rightly so. At 6-2 and 250 pounds, Bergey was a destructive force. He played the game hard and clean, but he left a lot of damage in his wake. He once required a police escort to leave Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh after knocking two Steeler quarterbacks, Terry Bradshaw and Terry Hanratty, out of the same game. Bergey didnt hit people, he blew them up. ”
I don’t know why he can’t make a list of 25. Isn’t it ironic how an Team goes to the Super Bowl and the next year someone associated with the organization goes to the HOF. It happen with Emmitt Thomas of the Falcons coaching staff and Dick LeBeau of the Steelers coaching staff and very likely will happen for a former Bengals player this year. I wonder how often there been a connection?
Other than Hardy Brown, Jack Tatum is the only one not in the HOF off their list.
Oh by the way in 2020 Ken Anderson and Ken Riley weren’t even among the 38 finalists. Here a more deserving CB IMO as previously discussed. Not many players have so many returns for TD’s. Parrish made it look easy.
https://youtu.be/8xs2nlf1yww
Paul, you said 2nd Team All Pro doesn’t mean a lot but over and over people who support Ken Riley are saying he was a 3 time All Pro. Personally I think if you’re good enough to be a 2nd team All-Pro than it ought to be equal to a Pro Bowl in a voter’s mind. Even if he’s a 1/2 with 65 interceptions he doesn’t make the HOF to me.
It seems like you can look a lot really good players on the Internet and none of them understand why they aren’t in the HOF. lol I remember someone on this site saying Interceptions were over rated. I think they were supporting Cliff Harris or maybe Steve Atwater. I think they really matter but I do believe a player can be over rated if they have a lot of them especially back in the day when there were a lot of bad quarterbacks in the league. That film of Parrish shows a bad QB throwing to picks to him returned for TD’s within about 45 seconds. That was a rotten QB. Only a few teams had a decent back up in the old days. Now a days the QB position is much more polished and really deep. You expect to be able to win with a back up.
I will congratulate the three seniors ahead of time but at least one them will be controversial to subjective football fans. It would be safe to say that two of the three will be on defense but we shall see. If Howley makes it, many fans and observers will be delighted but I am not getting my hopes up.
It would not surprise me if a Packer like Isbell or Sharpe gets voted in …
I hope they don’t waste their choices on players who can’t get elected. I wonder if they have a good feel for what the people think who are making the final say on the HOF or is it completely independent?
Like most of us, I would also be delighted by Howley but not getting my hopes up. I expect to be disappointed. I just feel as though the voters aren’t really doing their homework or are treating it as a popularity contest (the recent emphasis on Ken Riley, who I feel has no business in Canton (and to a lesser extent Ken Anderson) and the complete ignorance shown toward their overqualified and underappreciated teammate Parrish is a prime example). I am hopeful for Howley, Gradishar and Meador but I would be completely unsurprised if its the three least-deserving names on their list (for me, that’d be Riley, Isbell and Walls).
It was me who said INTs are overrated, but I added the qualifier “for CBs.” Lots of great CBs simply shut down their side of the field and therefore had fairly low INT numbers. Safeties on the other hand should have high INT numbers unless they played predominantly in the box (lynch style).
For tomorrow, I continue to predict Gradishar, Sharpe, Kuenchenberg. That said, I have read a lot of support for Klecko, but I wonder if the PR campaign might backfire.
Honestly, as long as it isn’t Isbell or Anderson, I’ll feel ok.
Well said Jeff. Well past due for Howley and Gradishar!! Meador I’m not as high on as you or many folks. I would prefer Baughn slightly if at all. Both of those positions weren’t valued for the HOF. .
A better way of saying the previous, is how much consideration for the probability of being elected do you think goes into who is ultimately nominated to go forward to HOF Election Committee?
https://www.profootballhistory.com/tommy-nobis/
He looked like a pretty sure tackler. LOL
For his part, legendary Miami Dolphins running back Larry Csonka once said, “I’d rather play against Dick Butkus than Nobis.”
I agree with what your saying Justin, that’s I why had some issue with Cliff Harris and Steve Atwater for their lack of production with INT’s as Safeties. And if the theory holds true for CB’s than Ken Riley got picked on a lot. I think that was the case as I recall. If it wasn’t he’d have a bunch of PB’s to go with his INT’s like Rod Woodson did with 71 INT’s. The problem is when you put in a 0/3 Dick LeBeau 62 INT’s, it clears the argument for Riley.
I think INTs are important for CBs and I don’t want to diminish Riley’s achievement there. He clearly made a lot of plays (heck, if anything, I feel like I’ve bent over backwards to see what it is I’m missing and why I seem to be in the fan minority on Riley’s candidacy). But I do think there’s a reason why he has virtually no honors and dozens more INTs than Parrish. Lebeau is definitely similar – one of the weaker HOFers (although Lebeau was also a pretty tough tackler and had a record consecutive game streak – I also wonder if there was some winking going on among voters and maybe they were honoring him just as much for his coaching career despite electing him as a player).
I’m on the fence about Nobis, Tony. I think you’re right that he’s been in the mix among voters for a while and maybe that gives him a leg up. He’s impressive in some ways. I’ve heard similar stories about his hitting and I think he was genuinely great but for a brief period. Of the four linebackers they’re considering, I think he’s easily #4. I wouldn’t be offended if he’s elected but he definitely would be near the bottom of the list for me.
Same deal with Klecko, really – I’ve seen a lot of buzz about him on twitter and I know there’s a big fan base pulling for him and he’s got some respected writers on his side…you have to wonder if that pays off. It probably will, whether its this year or not. He was a really underrated player and I’d be OK with him being in the hall of fame, but objectively, I think he’s closer to the bottom of the list than he is to the top.
Prediction (not my choices): Gradishar Riley Sharpe but could all or none right! Thinking along with those three others in mix are Howley Riley Klecko- again not my choices. Most hopeful but pessimistic for Howley.
Also note yes senior committee is meeting tomorrow and will select their three senior nominees BUT if meeting goes late into afternoon there is chance Hall will hold off announcement until Wednesday as they could need time to notify seniors/family members and get quotes/information gathered for their press release
is it possible that Sharpe and Isbell Cancel each other out could it happen yes, Jeff i have this feeling we have talked a time or two before
Justin,
I have an issue with high interceptions with safeties. I am assuming you mean around 40 to 50 interceptions.
My problem is there are some safeties that are hybrid aka Butler, Harrison, and Dawkins. There are safeties that do all the 3 things aka stop the run, cover the pass, and Blitz. Butler was different than Lynch, and Tim Mcdonald. Butler had more interceptions and sacks than Darren Woodson. Leroy Butler had 38 interceptions compared to Darren Woodson’s 23. Leroy Butler also had 20 sacks compared to Darren Woodson’s 11.
Leroy Butler was the first strong strong Safety with 20 sacks and over 30 interceptions. He was considered the best overall Strong Safety of the 1990s because he was a great tackler, great in covers, and a great blitzer. That means Butler was sometimes used near the box, but also at times was used out for coverage.
The Denver Broncos won Super Bowl 32 over the Packers because of the focus on Leroy Butler. The Broncos had him as their first target in the block scheme of theirs instead of Reggie White. It was due to film steady of plays being well blocked, but Butler gets scot-free and make tackles for no gain or minus yardage.
I know Tony P doesn’t believe Leroy Butler belongs in the Hall of Fame because of either amount of pro bowls, or Butler didn’t reach the 30 sacks and 30 interception mark as a Strong safety.
Before someone means Charles Woodson to me, He played played Cornerback for most of his NFL career.
ill go with an interesting group baughan Gradishar Howley if not ill go Gradishar Klecko Kuechenberg
UPDATE Announcement won’t be until Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern
Something just struck me. The increase for 3 to 9 senior nominees may provide the committee a much greater opportunity to “horse trade” or take the long view. In the past, the committee had to pick the one guy they believed was the best one hat year with no guarantee he would come back up in future years. Other considerations, such as positional variety, franchise variety, era variety, whether the candidate was still alive, etc., simply couldn’t be a major consideration. But now, the committee is pretty certain that at least half (and likely more) of today’s 12 finalists will be nominated in the next three years. That should be fairly liberating.
Robert might be The Greatest at finding leaks tonight on the voting. Paul too, please let us know if any senior gets all happy on social media tonight.
Hopefully … Howley
Gradishar
Meador
From hints, it appears that the final six are probably Gradishar, Howley, Keuchenberg, Klecko, Riley, and Sharpe (no order other than alphabetical). Not my top six, but pretty close. All are varying degrees of worthy. I also like the somewhat eclectic nature of the candidates: high stats guys, high honors guys, high testimonial guys, etc.
Justin Curiosity what would be your last 6 be
if those are the six then ill go
Gradishar
Klecko
Kuechenberg
My prediction
Howley, Gradishar and Sharpe
My predictions are Gradishar, Klecko, and Sharpe.
RTG: replace Klecko with Nobis and that would be my top 6 of these 12. That said, as mentioned above, three of my top four of the 25 didn’t make it this far (Dilweg, Hayes, and Jacoby).
Fair enough Justin
Gradishar did not make it
I hope it isn’t true but it’s definitely out there on twitter about Gradishar. I’m not a Broncos fan and dont have a dog in the fight, but I think he’s objectively one of the top players available and has been for a while. He was left out of the centennial class in favor of some truly awful selections (Jim Covert in particular). I really don’t get it.
I will be very disappointed if at least one of Howley, Baughan, Gradishar or Meador isn’t nominated.
Thanks Robert and Jeff … What does Gradishar have to do but that’s a lot of linebacker competition.
Brian:LB Comp is a massive massive logjam you have gradishar howley baughan Nobis Curtis Stratton Grantham Robertson Lee Roy Jordan etc
and also with the senior lb’s Corey and I believe we are looking at another reed carter brown situation this time with senior LB’s
As long as they select another LB. Maybe (hopefully) they’ll go with Howley as he’s now in his late 80s. One LB per year for the next 3 years would be fine.
If Gradishar is already out, I wonder if that will put give Nobis a shot with Howley also going in. Meador, Sharpe, Klecko, Kuechenberg, Baughan and Anderson would also be acceptable for me. Anyone else would be a shock to me in this go around.
Legit leak this morning (but again a leak and NOT Official announcement-that will be at 1p EDT) is that 3 seniors are Riley Klecko Howley
Am I the only one who thinks Gastineau might have a better argument than Klecko? I also think Parrish might have a better case than Riley.
Riley had a ton of interceptions, Klecko played three different spots, but neither overwhelm me otherwise.
Please let it be true on Howley. He’s my No. 1 in the Senior pool.
Thanks Paul …
If it’s indeed Riley, Howley and Klecko…well, mixed blessings. I’ll take what I can get. Howley would be wonderful! Fine with Klecko although I think he’s closer to the bottom of the list. I think Riley is easily the least deserving player on the list and but I also feel like I’m not in the majority in that opinion, so at least he’s removed from the discussion. I guess we’ll wait to see if it holds.
its now official: Howley, Riley, Klecko
HOWLEY !!!
Sharpe, Kuech, Gradishar made cut down from12 to round of 6
Two right predictions and my one for my wishlist.
Thanks Paul …
The hints from last night on the final six were spot on, which I find encouraging. While Klecko and Riley were not my top choices, two that were (Keuchenberg and Gradishar) just missed.
I also find encouraging that there is no “one” path to the HOF. If it was just honors or stats or testimonies or whatever, there would be no need for a committee or any of our discussions over the years. I’m a big hall guy. I believe there are plenty of guys who should be honored besides the obvious Jim Browns, Reggie Whites, and Jerry Rices. I don’t always agree with the final results, but that is okay. While I didn’t agree with Dick LeBeau, for example, I love that the HOF has a place for Sam Mills.
And that gets me to my last piece of hopefulness. Nuance. Honors are great, but there are lots of HOFers missing honors. My favorite example is Ray Nitschke. He famously made one pro bowl and had only two all pro seasons. In short, he had one more season of post-season honors than Ken Riley. But no one questions that Nitschke is a HOF, as there is no shame in having a career that overlaps with the end of Joe Schmidt and the beginning of Dick Butkus (not to mention Sam Huff, Bill George, Willie Lanier, etc.).
Just as Art Monk can be a worthy HOF (and my favorite player of all time) without being Jerry Rice, I’m comfortable that Ken Riley didn’t get 65 INTs and play as a top tier starting CB for 15 years on mostly winning teams by accident. Do I prefer Parrish or Wright or Hayes more? Yes. But the HOF is not diminished for Riley making it, and it is not a tragedy if an informed committee, weighing all of the evidence prefers Riley to Parrish, Wright, or Hayes.
Today was a good day. Honestly, maybe a surprisingly good day. Let’s hope there are many more in the coming years of senior selections.
Congrats to all 3. Hopefully all 3 get in at this point. I used to feel awful in the past for the seniors who were nominated and then did not get in. I remember that happening to both Kramer and Humphrey who eventually received the nod to Canton.
Howley at last. And noteworthy that the LB backlog might begin to be cleared one step at a time. Klecko well deserved but I’m also meh on Riley.
Sharpe, Kuech and Gradishar would be an excellent trio for 2024. Much like the modern era candidates who just miss out, you feel like it will only be a matter of time before they hear their name called.
Congratulations to Howley, Riley and Klecko.
With Howley, there was such support that a major wrong was finally righted. Thanks to everyone who helped keep his candidacy vocal and passionate.
With all three players it represented the 60s,70s and 80s but hopefully a super-senior like Dilweg, Wistert or Lewellen will get a chance next year.
Its still hard to believe defense ruled the selections today …
Where is Rasputin? If only he could come back to us on this special day on Howley.
Riley and Klecko are underwhelming, but if Howley doesn’t live to see his induction, the voters will have failed another player.
Howley’s one of the four I would’ve pushed for, along with Baughan, Gradishar and Meador.
My prediction (NOT my preferred choices) went 2/3, missed on Howley-which I know for me is really surprising as I have been among his stronger supporters here and elsewhere for over a decade, but though Gradishar had the edge.
I think I recall that my preferred choices were Howley, Gradishar and Sharpe so only 1/3 of three but its a great 1 !! and sure looks like Gradishar and Sharpe (in the 4-6) group are in the queue, and since voters at least respected the queue this year with Klecko (2nd 2022) and Riley (2nd 2021) at bodes well for Gradishar and Sharpe in 2024 or 2025.
Voters asked for 3 seniors and in last several years all the senior, coach, contributors nominees selected by committees were elected by full 49 member Hall Selection Committee who respect and honor the time, effort and selections by their fellow voters on these subcommittees.
And I don’t see Howley, Riley or Klecko as controversial picks, and feel assured that their presenters and subcommittee members can make strong cases for each, so that each can then be debated and voted on individually (each needing the 80% YES) with success
With Howley going in Paul … Will you go to the enshrinement ?
I am hoping too, since I believe Ware will make it as well.
If Bachslunch and Rasputin are still reading this thread, please chime in. We know you guys are happy for having this wrong corrected …
At least we all wont have to say that these guys were cancelled out by their heralded teammates (Parrish, Gastineau and Jordan)
In defense of Klecko, I had forgotten about his knee injury in 1982 that may have diminished his explosiveness as a pass rusher but he overcame it starring along the interior. True versatility …
Awesome. Corey and Brian Wolf, while I haven’t been posting as much on football the past year or two I have been following the Howley situation and figured I’d check out zoneblitz today. I’m glad to see it’s still running and y’all and the others are still here having these informed discussions. I won’t fully celebrate until the official vote next year but today is a great day. I’m ecstatic.
Sorry we haven’t gotten a fresh new topic board started for class of 2023 – I sent some draft text (now out of date) a weeks ago. Perhaps I can offer our host to help set one up before we get 2023 modern preliminary list next month.
And yes I am planning to attend enshrinement next August – first time since 2010
Long overdue for Howley!! I agree with Corey about the other two being underwhelming. Change that I’d say a little weak. I’ve also stated i thought Gastineau may have the better case than Klecko.
These three guys aren’t in yet!! I think Riley’s nomination has the biggest hurdle of criticism and controversy to overcome in the next several months. I don’t expect all three to be elected.
Glad ur commenting Rasputin. Hope Bachslunch comes back as well. Lot of us werent’t sure if Howley would ever have his chance but as you said, he isn’t in just yet …
‘These three guys aren’t in yet!! I think Riley’s nomination has the biggest hurdle of criticism and controversy to overcome in the next several months. I don’t expect all three to be elected.‘
I’d vote no on both Klecko and Riley.
Honestly, though, I just want Howley elected. I don’t even care what the rest of the class looks like, modern era or senior.
If all three get elected, that means Howley gets elected, I’ll take it.
Howley’s bust being unveiled next summer is all I care about.
All three will be easily elected, not hard for a presenter to point to Riley’s 65 INTs and make that case, plus last several years this full committee has respected time and effort by their colleagues on seniors committee and elected the seniors. It was voters that wanted 3 seniors, they won’t harm that effort by rejecting a final step.
I think there’s an outside chance Riley won’t be elected, but I doubt it. I could see some debate over the lack of honors and maybe someone will mention the name Lemar Parrish. I think Riley is that weak. I’d be absolutely stunned if Klecko didnt make it and Howley getting voted down would just be a sick joke.
I think most voters are automatic yes votes for the seniors even if they’re not all that excited about them, which I understand. Despite the trouble I’ve had with Riley’s entire candidacy, I’ve vote for him at this point if I were a voter. He’s gotten this far, he clearly has support, alot of work has been done…need to get him out of the way and out of the queue for next year.
I just feel like all Riley has is the 65 interceptions.
One First-Team All-Pro, no Pro Bowls vs. one First-Team All-Pro and eight Pro Bowls for Parrish.
I mean, 65 is a lot, but Bobby Boyd had 57 at 2/3/All Decade and when was the last time someone advocated for him?
Klecko was 2/4, while Gastineau was 3/5. If you had to nominate someone from the New York Sack Exchange, was the right person nominated?
Meanwhile, it’s quite clear Howley was the correct call, he doesn’t have a conflicting teammate, as in my opinion, he stands above Lee Roy Jordan – six Pro Bowls for Howley, five for Jordan, five First-Team All-Pro selections, none for Jordan.
I also can’t see how someone could advocate for the likes of Jordan/Curtis/Nobis when Howley didn’t get nominated until yesterday, while Baughan and Gradishar are still waiting.
Paul, what was the problem with 2/6 Claude Humphrey? Did they not know he got 130 sacks his first time around? If I knew that I would have given him more support.
Thats my question … Which seniors were snubbed after getting nominated ? I realize it was alot harder for seniors, say around 2008 or longer but who got shafted bad after the Hall started taking a “senior” nominee ?
Very interesting developments with former Dallas Cowboys since the Centennial Class Of 2020.
With three senior players and a HC being enshrined, does that help or potentially hurt future senior candidates like Martin, Neely, Green, Jordan, Jones or Niland ?
I feel kind of excited about Martin getting a chance in the future but there could also be a Cowboy backlash. I have noticed the excitement a lot of fans are having that down-trodden franchises like the Jets and Bengals are getting defensive players elected.
People talk about the 65 interceptions, with another 3 in postseason for Riley but Parrish, who was considered their shutdown corner had 47 himself …
Hopefully there’s no anti-Cowboys backlash, because Howley’s induction, along with the others over the past decade decade, would just finally get the Landry era players caught up to where they should have been in Canton membership by the mid 2000s. I would consider Canton legitimate again. Remember when the 60s/70s Vikings had more HoFers’ than Dallas did? We’d now have a chance to move on from the shameful legacy of the anti-Cowboys bias that raged from the late 1970s through the mid 2000s, assuming a new bias doesn’t set in. I think there’s overwhelming evidence that there was a rare and very real anti-Cowboys HoF bias, unlike the rhetoric barely informed fans sometimes spout about their team supposedly being discriminated against because some random player didn’t get in, which was often used by certain people to wrongly try to diminish legitimate complaints about anti-Cowboys bias. The Landry era still has a lot of legitimate HoF candidates,* but in my opinion the inductions of Howley, Harris, and Pearson address the glaring exclusions. The remaining candidates not yet being in isn’t a travesty. We can now discuss deserving Cowboys as normal candidates, like the type other teams have, with the caveat that Darren Woodson getting shafted on the 90s All Decade team may continue to hurt his chances for a while.
*Some include….
Lee Roy Jordan, John Niland, Ed Too Tall Jones, Harvey Martin, Don Perkins, George Andrie, Everson Walls, Herschel Walker, Ralph Neely, Cornell Green…
Meant to say the Vikings had as many by the mid 2000s. The Dolphins and lots of other teams had more. The Raiders had twice as many.
Though for me, Perkins and Andrie are worthy, I don’t believe they will get voted in. Walker may eventually but his versatility like Roger Craig is used against him. I see Martin as the next getting in but Neely and Green deserve consideration as well, especially if the Hall agrees to at least two seniors per year after 2025 …
Like I speculated before, I believe a linebacker will make the next three elections but after Gradishar, will the third one be Baughan, Nobis or a wild card like Matthews, Marshall or Bergey ?
Kooch might be get in next year but could that also open a hole for Wistert, Jacoby or Kenn to move into the finalist spots ?
As a Seniors finalist this year, Everton Walls probably gets in soon enough. I’d also expect Darren Woodson’s candidacy to make progress now that the modern era logjam at safety is being cleared with Lynch and Butler’s recent induction.
Some would say the Raiders suffered with the same anti-bias.
I’m not sure what’s going on with 2/5 Jake Scott, 2/3 Dick Anderson, 1/6 Bob Kuechenberg, 1/5 Bob Baumhower, 5/7 Zach Thomas and 2/7 Richmond Webb ? I don’t think the voters have been overly generous with the Dolphin greats. Of course some might say Bob Griese doesn’t belong. lol
HOFer 3/6 Jim Langer only started in 110 games at Center. 2/3 Anderson started only 100 games but had 34 Ints. and 3 TD’s. To me it looks like he could have gotten more PB invites based on his production but Miami was really bad until Shula showed up. I wonder who the SS’s were who got the accolades. 2/5 Jake Scott was the real deal. One of the best in College, Canada and the pros. I wish we could know how many tackles those Safeties were in on to compare to others from their time.
Wow, wow! LOL Listen to what the Cowboys Deon Sanders had to say. We have more than “white priviledge” going on in this country. :) Deon wants to be in a separate room. Haha I wonder why Dick Butkus didn’t think about that?
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/deion-sanders-takes-scathing-shot-at-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame-its-not-the-hall-of-fame-anymore/
Thinking outside of the box, what do y’all think about having a category for great tandem players? Of course the Mark Brothers but others like Frank Minniefield and Hanford Dixon or Harvey Martin and Too Tall Jones or Pat Thomas and Rod Perry or Dwight White and LC Greenwood or Warrick Dunn and Mike Alstott Rod or Joe Klecko and Mark Gastineau. LOL!
it might keep some of the fringe players out individually and make the HOF more legit for Deon. Just a thought . :)
I can’t really get behind a ton of more Cowboys for the Senior pool in the foreseeable future. Walls has a case, but no way should he get chosen over the older players in the pool.
Lee Roy Jordan should, in no way, be nominated before Baughan or Gradishar, and I’m not even sure he should be nominated before Niland. The Senior backlog would really, really have to be cleared to get behind a Jordan nomination.
When it comes the senior pool, I’m not biased for or against any team. I’m for or against certain players, no matter what team they played for, getting nominated.
Been a cowboys fan since 1977 and I don’t see easy or quick path for any more 60s/70s players, just so many other deserving and long waiting players from franchises. Everson Walls appears to have path eventually and of course Ware, Witten and in future ZMartin and TSmith – but that’s likely it.
There is a Cowboy that I think has a chance of getting inducted in the senior pool, but will be in a long time. I am point to Jay Novacek. Jay is 5/1 player at tight end. He was one of the one of the big keys to to the Cowboys success from 1991 to 1995. The Cowboys on Offense had Irvin, Emmitt, and Novacek.
The problem with Novacek is I have Todd Christensen, Steve Jordan, and Pete Retzlaff over Jay right now in the Senior poll. Todd has a strong argument for getting inducted because of Terrell Davis, Calvin Johnson, and Gale Sayers. Todd also has the argument of the 1982 and 1987 strikes did hurt his stats a lot.
I would really be impressed if Walls could get voted in but he may have to wait. I love Novachek and what he meant for the Dallas team but dont think he will get elected. Ware, Witten and Woodson will get in soon enough but I still feel Martin will get his due into the 2030’s.
Anything is possible because all of us felt Howley might never make it and here we are …
Is there any chance Everson Walls is hurt by The Catch?
I had forgotten about Walls earlier when I mentioned other Cowboys seniors and he has a great chance but was also somewhat overrated in my opinion. He may get voted in but was similar to Riley being a great ballhawk who benefitted from having Ed Jones on his side of the field. Having a ring will definitely help him but he was also cut by the Cowboys because HC Jimmy Johnson didnt like his attitude. Bill Belichick and the Giants revived his career. I dont believe The Catch hurt him because many people believe Montana was throwing the ball away, not knowing the true design of the play and Joe’s poise under pressure …
Next Cowboys Elected To The HOF (Predictions)
Ware
Witten
Woodson
Walls
Martin
Z Martin
Brian, I do expect Walls to make it eventually and if they follow some sort of queue with this three-a-year senior system I would move him up to second in that list after Ware. I don’t think there’s a big separation between him and Riley, and in fact Walls would have been a better selection than Riley in my opinion (and I’m very much on the fence with Walls and think there are much better candidates out there, even among DBs). I think Woodson will avoid the senior pool.
If Walls was hurt by the “catch” how did he advance from over 100 senior candidates to the finalist round of 12-likely because his record tying (with Ed Reed) 3x season INT leader plus 3x first team all pro “catches” voters eyes more.
My Next Cowboys Elected To The HOF (Predictions)
Ware (2023)
Witten (eligible 2026, so lets say 2030)
Woodson (with Butler elected he should move up process, lets say 2028)
Walls (made round of 12 for senior in class of 2023, lets say 2027-a lot depends if Hall stays with 3 seniors per year 2026+)
Z Martin (voters are hard on Guards, took Alan Fanaca with similar career profile 6 years as finalist, so lets say Zack retires around 2025/2026 after 12/13 seasons, Hall could be 2035??
TSmith (lets look at retire in 2023 or 2024, voters will have logjam at OT from 2010s all decade after Joe Thomas is elected in 2023, so lets say 2032
Z Martin
Keep in mind, I’m not saying Walls should be hurt by The Catch, I’m merely trying to channel what the voters might by thinking, giving how fickle and things voters can hold against players.
I’m not overly enthusiastic about Walls’ case, though I think he or Parrish would’ve been a better choice than Riley.
I’m still wanting to see players around Howley’s age get selected. As I’ve told Robert, I’m more passionate about the seniors than the modern era. Most of the modern era will eventually be enshrined. Do I think Ware should’ve gotten first ballot? Yes, but we know he’s all going to be on that stage someday.
The seniors are backloaded and there are limited spots, many deserving candidates in their eighties. Some deserving candidates have passed on. Barring a horrible accident, Ware should be with us for a while. Howley and others, to be honest, won’t.
They deserve to see their induction while they’re still with us.
As great as it has been to see Howley make it to this final step in the election process (from a guy here who has pushed for him since 2010 and disappointed at every other omission since), it is also a little sad as with advanced stage dementia its unfortunate that he likely will not be able to fully enjoy and be aware of the experience and honor. Like Art McNally this year, its very possible Howley will not attend Canton and be represented by his family.
Ware (2023)
Witten (eligible 2026, so lets say 2030)
Woodson (with Butler elected he should move up process, lets say 2028)
Walls (made round of 12 for senior in class of 2023, lets say 2027-a lot depends if Hall stays with 3 seniors per year 2026+)
Z Martin (voters are hard on Guards, took Alan Fanaca with similar career profile 6 years as finalist, so lets say Zack retires around 2025/2026 after 12/13 seasons, Hall could be 2035??
TSmith (lets look at retire in 2023 or 2024, voters will have logjam at OT from 2010s all decade after Joe Thomas is elected in 2023, so lets say 2032
so in retrospect it seems a little optimistic that 6 more Cowboys would be elected from 2023-2035 (12 elections), the greatest uncertainly would be whether Woodson is elected as modern before falling into seniors pool after class of 2029, and of course when Martin and Smith retire plus its likely both are not first ballot and if not, its often hard to determine (especially this far out) how long they are on modern ballot before elected could be 3-5 yrs or even a few more longer. So if we assume Woodson is elected as modern, it could be 6 more Cowboys between 2023-2040 or 17 elections.
This has turned into a Cowboys love fest. LOL! No one wants to comment on what Deon said? Anyone care to pick his team of 11 versus 11? Man we think picking HOFers is difficult. Now we have to pick the upper echelon. I’m thinking that was Deon’s ego running away with him. How’s John Madden going to talk to him if he’s in another room? :)
Emerson Walls was great at what he did but not a HOFer IMO. He had a knack for thievery and making big plays which made him fun to watch. But I never saw him as a shutdown CB. He didn’t have the speed. Heck he went undrafted. He’s one of those CB’s that we talked about with elevated Int’s because he got picked on some. I don’t think they were picking on Dennis Thurman as much but I will defer to the Cowboy experts. :) IMO if gets in he should be after Lester Hayes.
Deion’s ego is running away again, obscuring whatever legitimate half truth he stumbled upon. His comments indicate he doesn’t even follow how the process works and is likely just having a knee jerk reaction to the unusually high number of inductions in recent years, including the centennial class. The time may come when it’ll be legitimate to stop having maxed out classes. The problem is the HoF started over 40 years after the NFL did and they’ve had a lot of small classes with some dubious choices and exclusions over the years, so they’ve had a lot of catch up to do. Having 3 senior players a year for at least a few years is a great thing and an opportunity to rectify that. Not sure if Deion’s complaining more about modern or seniors, but if anything they’ve been lowering standards for modern era players lately more than seniors. I would have kept the Sayers Mendoza line for longevity and not inducted Terrell Davis. I would have made some more borderline but hype-fueled HoFers like Calvin Johnson and Warren Sapp wait longer. But the bigger problem for me has been the exclusion of overwhelmingly deserving players for decades, guys more qualified than many who did get in. Let’s get those deserving HoFers in then shift the focus more toward keeping undeserving ones out.
As for Landry Cowboys, I think Lee Roy Jordan has a strong case, but after Howley there are a number of directions it could go. On the remaining 9 seniors in this pool, I argued a lot for Sterling Sharpe as a modern candidate and support Gradishar, but let’s get some of these old, but still living and also deserving guys like Maxie Baughan and Eddie Meador in first.
Haha … Not a lovefest TonyP, just speculation. I will admit I am giddy for Howley and his family and hope he can attend the ceremony. His family will enjoy his moment in the sun.
Paul has a way of looking into the future but I believe Witten will get voted in before 2028 and hopefully Woodson will make it by then but also could be hurt by a safety backlash. I truly believe the Beautiful Harvey Martin could make it by 2033 depending upon at least a two senior per season, voting process but we will see.
Nice mention of Dennis Thurman, who was very underrated to me and made many big plays and turnovers himself despite being slower than Walls.
A great career for Tyron Smith Paul but I am not sure he will get voted in but maybe eventually. Erik Williams, Nate Newton and Mark Stepnoski could also have a chance but its doubtful, since linemen dont get the recognition from voters they deserve.
Getting off the Cowboys, I still hope Meador gets a nod these next 2-3 years but offense might be the focus next year. If Sharpe gets voted in, I believe that could possibly help other short-career players later on, like we all have speculated but which ones ?
Maybe Priest Holmes or Jake Scott …
Deion is a complete @%%hole, plus we already have a higher tier (that also have rings and red jackets)-which is the NFL 100th anniversary team, second I feel quite strongly that no current or future PFHOFer should be publicly commenting on the worthiness of their fellow PFHOFers. Once elected every PFHOFer (like the majority already do, except Deion) congratulate every one into the great honor that is the PFHOF and welcome them as new members. No PFHOFer including Deion are the gatekeepers for an exclusive group (with total membership of under 2% of everyone involved with pro football in 100+ years is in fact very selective)- and a group they were also invited to join and welcomed in. There are plenty of different resumes of PFHOFers and is ego, narcissism and elitism at work to suggest among that group that you are at level above others.
Deion needs to shut up.
Please Paul, don’t pull any punches … haha
At least Deion can be comforted at knowing that with the election of Riley, there is someone making the HOF that was as not willing to tackle or go over the middle in player traffic as himself …
2023 senior finalists have 22 remaining, so that is at least 7 elections worth in future years and perhaps more if Hall decides to go back to 2 per year starting in 2026, and list does not include several very deserving to be considered like Greenwood, Craig, Jacoby. No other 60s/70s Cowboys made that list, and that does not represent the 2-3 additional modern candidates that will fall into the senior pool over next decade. It took Howley with his 5/6/SB MVP over 40 years to get elected-does not speak well for chances of LR Jordon, Neely, Niland. And very soon the 60s players will be viewed by voters like the pre 1960 seniors are now-very few named and yet none can get elected!! Yet dozens of 60s and 70s deserving players from across the league will still be looking from the outside trying to get in. And I think same is case for the 90s Cowboys SB teams well represented and besides Woodson none have received much attention from media or voters, so I suspect that Hall door has also closed.
As to Tyron Smith, once Joe Thomas is elected, Smith falls among next 3 all decade OTs from 2010s all decade team-and they have close career resumes. But if we look at 80s (4 OT elected-with noted exception of Jacoby), 90s (3 OT elected with noted exception of Webb) and 2000s (4 OT already elected plus Anderson a finalist), I don’t think it unreasonable to think over time that TSmith as 2-4th best OT of his era will end up in PFHOF even if it ends up taking several elections. Among his 2010s peer OT, Smith 2(2)/8 fairs well up against Peters 2(4)/9 and Staley 0(3)/6 plus Whitworth 2(1)/4 and TWilliams 1(1)/9 and looking at OT from other all decade teams 3-4 OT seems to be the number.
For Witten, voters have been slow to elect TEs-and there are only 9 in Hall, Gates will get in first, also likely Gronk (1st ballot), Witten is first eligible in 2026 but that class and 2027 are pretty loaded (we of course will not have class of 2028 ballot until after 2022 season but could also be very loaded), it took Shannon Sharpe-with SBs, all pro, all decade and finishing his career as the NFL’s all-time leader in receptions (815), receiving yards (10,060) and receiving touchdowns (62) by a tight end – 3 ballots to get elected, very possible Witten waits even a little longer, a lot will depend 1st ballots on 2028 ballot-TBrady?? EThomas?? VMiller??? JJWatt??
My mistake … Nomination of Riley, nothing is certain yet. We will see in the next three years if all nine nominations get elected. 7 of 9 might be more realistic but we will see …
Hopefully the treatment of Howley over the past 40 years isn’t a barometer of anything going forward, lol.
To be honest, it might be a good thing if certain nominated players were refused initial induction, with this revised format …
It possibly could force senior committee voters to do their homework on deserving candidates even more but the backlash and upset players might not be worth the risk. Maybe if senior announcements happened right before the elections in Jan, or Feb, it wouldnt be as bad but they’re happening in August and families are preparing for induction afterward, knowing they still need the necessary votes. The players that are turned away will lead the queue but imagine the disappointment that finalists like Kooch, Conerly and Greenwood have had to already go through ?
I also see what you’re saying about the 25 semifinalists to 12 finalists Paul but the deck could still change each year. Voters could change their minds or reevaluate their choices and add or omit players. Riley is a great example. He wasnt even on the BRP radar in 2020, then gained momentum the next year. Of course in some voters minds, he might have been considered a player who wrongly fell through the cracks and they felt he deserved reconsideration …
If the voters stay the same, the queue may as well but will new voters or a rotation happen next year ?
I hope it’s great for Chuck Howley like it was Johnny Robinson. Minus Dallas winning the Super Bowl. Haha I’m glad Johnny has gotten to enjoy the notoriety albeit very late. Yeah we’ve talked about the whole get’em in before they die. The Senior Committee has a knack waiting too long. Like Paul said before it doesn’t seem to be a consideration. it would have been nice if Ken Stabler and Cliff Branch had experienced the joy of the HOF.
Rasputin, I agree with your philosophy. All you guys bring up a lot of good points. Brian, I knew Dennis Thurman would be good from watching Dennis Smith and him in college at USC. I was a huge fan of the Trojans back then. I had family living in Southern California. I liked Anthony Davis, Ricky Bell and Charles White also. I loved Tailback U!
I know Paul doesn’t like criticizing players once they make the HOF. He’s probably right. We even made a little pact not to trash certain players. I’ve back slide in recent years though. lol It’s not only because it’s irritating that some have made it but it brings them to mind when predicting if others will get in now. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. :)
Hey maybe Deion doesn’t make his own list if you’re talking strictly position play??? LOL Ronny Lott made All Pro at three different secondary positions. And I’ll take Rod Woodson slightly over Deion. What about Herb Adderley, Willie Brown, Mel Blount, Mike Haynes, Darrell Green, Champ Bailey and Aeneas Williams ?
No I don’t think Deion makes this special team he wants. His tackling was pretty bad. When I saw Champ Bailey playing for Denver, I thought that was the best I’d ever seen at playing CB. Darrelle Revis was special too. They were all great! I don’t know why Sanders would want to disrespect one of them. That said, lol if I had to pick a secondary my Safeties would be 6/10 Ronnie Lott and 5/9 Ed Reed. My Cornerbacks are 6/11 Rod Woodson and 3/12 Champ Bailey. Those guys in their prime were as good as it gets at playing those positions IMO. 6/8 Deion Sanders wins the most exciting player on the field award with Devin Hester a runner up, Darrell Green etc…
I would go with Eric Allen also before Emerson Walls. The only Cowboy from the 90’s that I would support is 2/6 Nate Newton. That Team is a lot like the Dophins with their stars being on Offense in Greise, Warfield and Csonka and the Boys having Aikman, Irvin and Smith and not much for the HOF on Defense though they were very good. Charles Haley like Buoniconti had good years with another Team. If they got a Center and Guard they would be really close to the same.
I would think the Cowboys would get one representative from the OL in the HOF. The Steelers got one in Webster. The Redskins got one in Russ Grimm. The Bears got one in I can’t remember the guys name. lol The Broncos got one in with Gary Zimmerman.
Seems like those great rushing teams of the Broncos should have one or two more. How did Dan Neil OG for the Broncos never make a PB? Center Tom Nalen was a 2/5. I don’t know who else played for them but they had a lot of productive RB’s with starting with Terrell Davis than Clinton Portis and so on. It seemed like any RB would do in that Offense.
I don’t know if Lee Roy Jordan has a strong case; I just know he looked like a HOFer to me for several years in the early ’70’s .
There is no longer a rotation of subset of seniors committee meeting to select their nominee, unless one of the current 12 members retires or leaves, and is replaced , a year from now the same 12 will meet to pick their three 2024 senior nominees.
Voters pushed Hall to have more senior slots and those in the senior committee will certainly push hard and give strong presentations and cases to elect all 3. Not filing all 3 slots destroys the voters effort to get more seniors in and hurts chances for 2 or 3 senior slots remaining in 2026 and beyond. Riley and Klecko may have their flaws but a subcommittee selected and will defend them and as has been case in last decade, the full committee will respect the process and time/effort by their peers to bring these 3 forward for election
Thanks Paul … Let the Nine have their Shine !!
Taking a cue from BoKnows34, it will be interesting to see who the new semifinalists will be next year once the three nominees are enshrined. I doubt all 22 remaining semifinalists will return and even if they somehow did, who would be the new three ?
I would like to see Wistert, Brito and Lewellen of course but if year two follows the pattern of year one, it will probably be three modern players after 1970. In that case, I would want H Martin, H Jackson and either Scott or Anderson of the Dolphins; yes they had short careers but vital to a team that won two of three straight SBs …
I truly feel at least five players minimum, will not repeat the semifinalist list next year …
Brian
The Seniors voting committee will now be unchanged just like the 49 votes for the modern era candidates. As such we are likely to see very similar voting results for next year’s Seniors finalists as we do with the 25 modern era semi finalists and 15 finalists.
You are right to point out that not all of them make it back. There have been a few guys at the back of the semi finalist queue who have dropped out after a year or two. That can be down to a single vote or two but some are pushed off if there is a strong list of first time eligibles in a particular year.
Unless someone drops off the modern era list into the Seniors pool the Seniors committee will be selecting from the exact same list of names. The modern era list will always a much larger group of new candidates to replace the five who have just been selected.
That’s the thing to BoKnows34, fans have to know each year who is hitting the senior abyss because to be honest, I dont know all the players who are in their final year of modern eligibility and these players can definitely influence the 25 semifinalist list …
Among the 2022 semi-finalists, Sam Mills and Steve Tasker were in their last year of modern era eligibility as they both retired in 1997 (25 years). Mills was of course elected but Tasker now falls into the Seniors pool from now on.
The clock was ticking on Boselli and Butler as their final year would’ve been 2026. Of the 2022 finalists Darren Woodson has until 2028 as a modern era candidate.
Last year of modern era eligibility:
2024 – Leslie O’Neal
2025 – Cornelius Bennett
2026 – Ricky Watters, Eric Allen
2028 – Darren Woodson
2029 – Eddie George
There are 20 returning semi-finalists from the 26* in 2022 as there was a tie for 25th. The six who don’t return are of course Tasker (seniors) and the five who were elected this year.
One or two from that 20 may get bumped by the 2023 first-year eligibles or by someone on the fringes of making the last 25. Previous semi-finalists still on the modern era list include Cornelius Bennett, Rodney Harrison, Leslie O’Neal and Simeon Rice.
Thanks BoKnows34 …
I could see Roger Craig, Joe Jacoby and LC Greenwood in 2024 seniors semifinalist list
Yeah, Craig and Jacoby should repeat. Greenwood would be a new addition, though a finalist from the past. Which two new additions could you see or want Paul ?
Would be nice to see Ellard possibly make it but I would go with Harold Jackson first, since voters dont care about older receivers like Benton, Howton, Shofner, Retzlaff, Wilson, L Taylor or Powell.
Craig, Jacoby, Greenwood with Wistert, Dilweg, Emerson as super seniors would be my next six additions to the semi-final list by 2025.
2024 – Sharpe, Gradishar and Kuechenberg
I’ll just share this article right here.
https://www.dallascowboys.com/news/howley-s-hall-inclusion-not-a-moment-too-soon
“He’s in the final stages of dementia,” Scott Howley said of his 86-year-old dad. “When I told him yesterday about being a finalist, all I got out of him was a whole lot of silence, then, ‘OK, you be good. Bye.'”
I don’t know about the rest of you, but reading that angers me.
Yeah, sorry, Chuck Howley, we the voters couldn’t nominate and elect you before you were battling this terrible disease. We had to make room for Dave Robinson, whose qualifications are inferior to yours in every single way imaginable.
We’re going to have another Gene Hickerson on our hands, if he’s still with us by then, assuming the voters finally do the right thing.
I have been upset about the long delay with electing Howley for many years, and has been in declining health for at least the last decade, its really frustrating, disappointing and sad state of events for him and his family at this time of finally receiving the long overdue honor.
But there is nothing that can be done….at least finally he’s getting in Hall.
As to 3 new seniors added to 2024 semifinalist list- Greenwood, Ellard and Jackson, if we think super-seniors will get their due respect (looks unlikely) I would keep Greenwood and add Emerson and Wistert
my prediction for 2024 is also Gradishar, Sharpe, Kuech
boknows34 …. Craig, Jacoby were already on 2023 semi-finalist list BUT they could have very good cases to move into the 2024 senior finalists
‘ Would be nice to see Ellard possibly make it but I would go with Harold Jackson first, since voters dont care about older receivers like Benton, Howton, Shofner, Retzlaff, Wilson, L Taylor or Powell.’
I’m not sure why voters don’t care about these older senior receivers.
Anyway, can we please hope Harold Jackson gets better treatment than Branch did?
I mean on one hand, since I started following along more closely, Hanburger deserved it, Butler, Tingelhoff, Easley, Kramer, Brazile, Johnny Robinson and Cliff Harris all deserved it. Howley, of course, deserves it, though I’m not sure how much of enjoy he’ll be able to enjoy it.
They did wrong by deserving deceased players like Richter, Stanfel, Dillon and Branch – players they could’ve nominated earlier, and they rejected Stanfel for whatever reason in 2012.
Instead, they nominated undeserving players like Dave Robinson, Stabler, Carmichael and Covert.
Yes, they’ve corrected some wrongs, but have they created new ones while taking too long to correct others.
Cheers Paul. For some reason I was only looking at the 12 finalists and forgot about the initial 25.
Corey I’m going to have to disagree on 1/4 Ken “Snake” Stabler. lol I know the criticisms but he was a winner at 96-49-1 with a 7-5 playoff record . The SB winning QB was also a two time MVP and 2nd Team HOF All 1970’s QB tied with Roger Staubach.
IMO if a mistake was made it was not electing him a year earlier when he was still alive. To me Stabler is the Joe Namath of the 70’s. Another Alabama bad boy.
I agree that Dave Robinson and Jimbo Covert were undeserving. I usually prefer to say “weak” but if the shoe fits. lol
To me Henry Ellard is Charlie Joiner, not really a number one WR and played a loooong time. I didn’t support Joiner either.
I once supported LC Greenwood but now I have my doubts. Unless his sack total of 78 is quite a bit off I don’t think he should be in the HOF. IMO a HOF DE should always be i the neighborhood of 100 sacks at a minimum and have really good amount of accolades. We have three DE’s that came up short of 100 sacks in Fred Dean, Howie Long and Doug Atkins. Fred Dean was a weak selection who I didn’t support and Howie Long should have had to wait a good while. To be honest I never realized Howie Long was that good to be a 2/8. I knew he was good when the Raiders won the SB. I tend to wonder if Greenwood wasn’t riding the coat tails of that iconic Steelers Defense a little with his accolades or if the position was weak. I loved the gold shoes! LOL I think they made him look faster. :)
Yes, we will be losing many great players for the 70’s if they aren’t elected soon. I’ve been a Harold Jackson supporter forever. The dude had blazing speed and moves along with longevity. I wouldn’t mind if Otis Taylor got in since Bob Hayes made it with not a great amount of games. But than they need to elect Art Powell as well. Those should be the last of the AFL offensive skill players that needs to make it.
Congrats to Howley, Riley and Klecko! Very thrilled about Howley, as I think he is one of the few candidates left in the senior pool that is a totally head scratching snub. I am not super excited about either Klecko or Riley, but to be fair, I know that their cases go way beyond their numbers and post season awards, and I am too young to have seen either of them play.
Hoping that Howley gets in to give Gradishar, Baughan, Nobis and other LBs a clearer path to induction. With Safeties and Wide Receivers getting some consistent love from the committee over the past 5 years or so, I think it’s fair to say that linebacker is now position with the biggest backlog of deserving players.
I am not really sure if Klecko or Riley getting in would help anyone else (hopefully Lemar Parrish). They seem to have been targeted projects for the committee for the last few years.
I am hoping that next year, there is a bit more finalist representation from pre-60s players, and I am hoping that guys like Parrish and Greenwood make the list.
I could get behind a Henry Ellard campaign, but I would prefer to see Sterling Sharpe and Gary Clark go in first. I would definitely take all 3 over Stanley Morgan…I don’t understand the push for him at all.
Of the three versatile, defensive, hybrid linemen, Long was easily the best over Hampton and Klecko.
He could have easily had over 100 sacks but sometimes allowed the QB to escape his clutches.
Even when he missed the sack, he usually flushed the QB to other good Raider pass rushers like Townsend and Jones. Klecko might have been better against the run but lost explosion from that 1982 knee injury. All three got hurt more towards the end of their careers. Gary “Big Hands” Johnson was also an excellent pass rushing DT but wore down due to playing so many plays without adequate backups. When the Niners made him more a situational rusher, he wreaked havoc during the 1984/85 postseason run, getting a SB ring.
LC Greenwood was most certainly a HOF level player… Richard Seymour was just elected with way under 100 sacks, because he was awesome against the run…so was Greenwood. It was more than just the sacks. Stanley Morgan was a better receiver than Ellard, Ellard was underrated. I agree with the poster who reminds us about the top 100 players…being all that Deion should need. Just stop it with the HOP talk Deion. He should be happy to share that honor with every other HOFamer.
Having said that… here are my best 22.
Tom Brady QB
Jim Brown FB
Walter Payton HB
Jim Otto C
John Hannah G
Jim Parker G
Anthony Munoz T
Forrest Gregg T
Rob Gronkowski TE
Jerry Rice WR
Randy Moss WR
Merlin Olsen DT
Joe Greene DT
Reggie White DE
Deacon Jones DE
Lawrence Taylor OLB
Dick Butkus MLB
Jack Ham OLB
Ronnie Lott S
Ed Reed S
Deion Sanders CB
Mike Haynes CB
LC Greenwood and Ed Jones were complete DEs who did everything well, though Greenwood raised his game in the postseason, while Jones excelled at tipping passes and forcing incompletions. Greenwood has been a multiple finalist and could break through next year in the semifinals but like I have stated before, other defensive ends need to be heard as well.
My Top Senior Defensive Ends Not In The HOF
Brito
Katcavage
Martin
Alzado
Hardman
Jones
Baker
Gastineau
Andrie
Greenwood
Bacon
Gregory
I will trust in Bill on LC Greenwood. He studies a lot of film. Plus I should have taken into consideration how much the League ran the ball back in the day.
Stanley Morgan doesn’t seem like a HOF player to me. Granted like a lot of these players I confess to not seeing them that often. Not so relevant for him but back in the 1970’s we got our three games a week and Howard Cosell at halftime of MNF. So I have a good sense of who the best players were but it’s not very definitive. Unless you’re talking about Cowboys and Oilers. LOL I saw them every week. :)
Ed Too Tall Jones was not a HOF caliber player. He was a good athlete for his size and an intriguing player for the League but only HOVG player. There’s nothing wrong with that!! He’s more memorable than some in Canton. :)
I think for a DE to be a HOFer they need to be a complete player. Sacks get the attention but you have to be decent against the run. Of those players Brian listed: Bacon, Hardman, Jones, Baker and Alzado I wouldn’t consider seriously for the HOF. I would consider Martin and Greenwood. I think putting a player like Richard Dent in the HOF may crack the door for some of these players. I hope Dent was unique.
We’ll see how easily Dwight Freeney gets in. He treated tackling like they had COVID. He was known for one sack move and stripping the QB. One note Johnny. And it’s not like his sack totals were awesome. He hung around for 7 years picking up sacks when he wasn’t very good. They switched him to OLB and the most tackles he was in on was 12 for a year. I’m sorry but the guy is so over rated. So many more deserving players without the accolades he got. Enough of that. LOL
Oh Bill is going to tackle the Top 22. lol I see he has a lot of older players. IMO it’s time for people to separate players from the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s into a different category for top player discussions to be more fair. I don’t see Bruce Smith, Tony Gonzalez or Ray Lewis on your list. I didn’t see Butkus play in his prime but for me Ray Lewis was the most dominating MLB I had ever seen in 2000 when the Raven won the SB. He was literally everywhere!
I assume your list is the best ever at the position and not the best career at the position. I thought JJ Watt in his prime was one of the best I’d seen always getting double and triple teamed. And there’s Aaron Donald. See this is why Deion Sanders is dumb. lol
I would come up with two lists.
Looking at the players who missed the semi-finalist list this time around, I’d probably name these 20 as the biggest snubs (in no particular order):
Al Wistert
Del Shofner
Deron Cherry
Harold Jackson
Isiah Robertson
Jay Hilgenberg
Jim Tyrer
Jimmy Patton
Joey Browner
Karl Mecklenburg
L.C. Greenwood
Larry Grantham
Lemar Parrish
Ox Emerson
Riley Matheson
Roger Brown
Steve Tasker
Todd Christensen
Verne Lewellen
Walt Sweeney
I’m not quite as bullish on several of the receivers that get brought up from the 50’s/60’s and my list is a bit heavier on safeties and linebackers.
Among players who recently joined the senior pool, I’d also call out Keith Jackson and Michael Dean Perry. Both players were very dominant at times, but had inconsistent careers overall. Neither player was consistently on the preliminary modern era list, but similar to guys like Roger Craig, Sterling Sharpe and Steve Tasker, I feel like their path is actually easier in the senior pool as they instantly become one of the biggest snubs at their respective positions.
A few others on the above list like Christensen, Cherry, Browner and Hilgenberg were players who I feel were victims of the hall’s poor record of inducting full classes in the 90’s and early 2000’s, and who just missed out on taking advantage of the hall’s separation of coaches and contributors from the modern ballot.
Other borderline players who are probably destined for the senior pool like Eric Allen, Cornelius Bennett and Ricky Watters have at least made the semifinalist stage, and are probably going to run out of time to gain enough momentum for induction, but there’s always the hope that they could be another Sam Mills. We’ll see what happens.
I didn’t tweak your list too much Bill. lol
Modern Group 1
QB Johnny Unitas
FB Jim Brown FB
HB Walter Payton
C Jim Otto
G John Hannah (it pains me not to put Larry Little or Gene Upshaw here. lol )
G Jim Parker
T Anthony Munoz
T Forrest Gregg
TE Mike Ditka
WR Lance Alworth
WR Paul Warfield (I could have put Rice here but I thought of him as 90’s. I picked Warfield over Berry, Largent, Biletnikoff and Charley Taylor. Very tough!) Warfield did the least of all the 1st ballot HOFers. He was pretty great. Too bad he never played in a big time passing Offense.
DE Reggie White
DE Jack Youngblood – (This will be a controversial pick. lol IMO he was amazingly underrated by how late he went on the HOF. RIP Deacon but I’m going anti-head slap and 1970’s-80’s. I always thought Alan Page had over 200 sacks but I guess it wasn’t so.)
DT Randy White – ( I like my Lineman a little mean and the Manster fits the bill. As far as I’m concerned you can throw a blanket over White, Lilly, Olsen and Greene as to who was the best. )
DT Joe Greene
OLB Lawrence Taylor
MLB Dick Butkus (Jack Lambert very narrowly second)
OLB Jack Ham
S Ronnie Lott
S Ken Houston
CB Mel Blount
CB Mike Haynes
https://athlonsports.com/nfl/25-greatest-wide-receivers-nfl-history
I think this list was put together by a 5 year old. lol Warfield, a 1st Ballot HOFer can’t even make the top 25. Another list I saw had Lynn Swann ranked as the 6th best WR of all time. :)
That’s a very good list BLSO. I don’t know about Sweeney since his an admitted hardcore steroid user. I’d put him on the Lyle Alzado list.
Coryell is the 2023 coach contributor nominee
RIP Len Dawson
First Chuck Howley, then Don Coryell. Let’s go.
R.I.P. Len Dawson
Congratulations Don Coryell !!
Finally … In innovator who also brought in the I Formation to great success with USC …
An innovator … haha
I am glad the owners are still held at bay from the Hall.
RIP Len Dawson
Stram believed in him, while turning around his career and becoming a great QB …
My All-Time Team
QB — Montana
FB — Jim Brown (Though I liked Jim Taylor more)
HB — Walter Payton
TE — Dave Casper
WR — Jerry Rice
WR — Paul Warfield
OT — Walter Jones
OT — Roosevelt Brown
OG — Larry Allen
OG — John Hannah
OC — Dwight Stephenson
K — Adam Vinatieri
DE — Reggie White
DE — Deacon Jones
DT — Alan Page
DT — Bob Lilly
NT — Curley Culp
Edge LB — Lawrence Taylor
OLB — Jack Ham
MLB — Ray Lewis/Dick Butkus
SS– Ronnie Lott
FS — Ed Reed
CB — Dick Lane (Hitting)
CB — Mike Haynes (Coverage)
Worthy list Brian but you picked 24 players and not 22. I did like that you picked a K and I also would pick Vinatieri. If I had to pick a P, it Would be Lechler.
Yeah, my punter would be Guy. Couldnt decide MLB between Butkus, Lewis or Lanier …
I wanted to add Unitas as my All-time playcalling QB but I went with Montana overrall.
Bad news for Tyron Smith who might miss the season with injury. Another pro bowl of All-Pro season would guarantee HOF but he will probably still make it after a wait.
I still cant believe Holmgren jumped ahead of Parker in the contributor/coaches voting. WTF ?
Thanks Bill …
Modern Group 2 Best of (1990’s to present)
QB — Tom Brady
RB—- Barry Sanders
RB — Adrian Peterson
FB —- Lorenzo Neal
TE — Tony Gonzalez
WR — Jerry Rice
WR —Randy Moss
T — Jonathon Ogden
T — Orlando Pace
G — Larry Allen
G — Bruce Matthews
C — Kevin Mawae
K — Justin Tucker (active)
DE — Reggie White
DE — Bruce Smith
DT — John Randle
DT — Warren Sapp
NT — Haloti Ngota
OLB Derrick Brooks
MLB Ray Lewis
OLB – Junior Seau
SS– Brian Dawkins
FS — Ed Reed
CB — Deion Sanders
CB —Rod Woodson
K — Shane Lechler
Great list of senior snubs for the semifinalist list BSLO …
My List Of 25 Most Deserving Senior Snubs From Semifinalist List
Tyrer — Due to CTE will never make it
Wistert
Lewellen
Brito
Patton
Emerson
Matheson
Shofner
Barwegan
JR Smith
Grantham
Shafrath
Benton
Scott
H Martin
H Jackson
Cherry
Katcavage
Fortunato
Parrish
D Anderson
Bergey
Boyd
Grayson
Smerlas
Another 10 just barely missing out like Browner, Cromwell, Mecklenberg, Greenwood, Sweeney, Rymkus, Powell, Wright, Robertson, R Brown
Was my list okay? I had to pick Justin Tucker as my Kicker for obvious reason. lol Hook’em Horn! At least I didn’t pick Phil Dawson. :) Though he was a pretty good one two.
My snubs are coming! lol
Tucker fulfilled the Texas fight song by saying goodbye to A&M at Kyle Field the best way possible. He’s having a sterling NFL career too.
Tucker is a great kicker but Vinny was so clutch and has more championships.
At least with Howley and Coryell, I feel better about this upcoming HOF class which will probably have Ware as well. The preliminary list is coming up soon but I will still go with my predictions from late february …
Modern Wishlist For Class Of 2023
Z Thomas
Ware
Woodson
J Thomas
R Barber
Class Of 2023 Modern Predictions
J Thomas
Z Thomas
Ware
Allen
R Barber
Tyrer won’t get inducted into HOF, but it will not be because of CTE, it will be because he killed his family and then himself. There are already numerous players in HOF due to CTE, but I get your point Brian.
I did not see Tombstone Jackson or Tom Sestack on your list…now that there are plenty of short career players in HOF, do either of these two stand a chance?
Sestak and Jackson are deserving but very short careers. Webster was outstanding early as well but hung on as a role player. If Sharpe gets elected, could help those guys but we will see. The AFL players still get little attention …
No Bill, neither has a chance IMO. I don’t think the prospects look good for more AFL HOFers, maybe 1 or 2 at the most. I was surprised with the Winston Hill election. I think Joe Namath had something to do with that. Johnny Robinson was the big one to check off the list because there was a lot of fan consensus. I see the committee moving on from the 60’s soon. Just a hunch. :)
Everyone who watched the AFL and the NFL back than is getting old. Where do you go if you’re a young fan go to watch those old players to maybe support them? I believe the fans more and more with social media move the interest for the committee. Can’t tell me they didn’t know about the outcry of support for Johnny and Howley. They had to finally address it. The same with Drew Pearson well some of that came from himself. lol I put in “watch AFL Football videos” and I got all Australian rugby. lol
You’re right TonyP …
Hill was a surprise but he protected Joe to a SB win and deserves recognition but not too many AFL players will get that recognition. Grayson, Taylor, Sweeney, Cappelletti and Powell might be it and they are doubtful at best, though Faison, Sestak and Jackson could dominate. Budde might be in the discussion as well. Backs like Gilchrist, Haynes, Lowe or Daniels wont make it and all declined at the same time.
I always wondered what Clem Daniels could have done in the SB for the Raiders against GB had he not gotten injured during the season ?
I think Otis Taylor might get in because he was a high profile player. Budde and Tyree maybe but how realistic is it to get more Chiefs in the HOF? My thinking right or wrong is there is some bias against players who received their accolades primarily before 1965. I’m guilty of it myself because I assume the League was newer and less competitive so how great were these players really? That’s why I think 5/5 Larry Grantham isn’t getting traction even though by all accounts he was a very good football player on the Jets SB Team. Could the Jets be the only Team who won a SB who doesn’t have a Defensive player in the HOF? I guess maybe the Saints are another one? I know one who Saint who should be in the HOF named Darren Sharper.
Any way that’s why I’m not optimistic about Sestak. As far as I know there’s only one Buffalo Bill in the HOF for those SB winning teams and he’s a guard with accolades that are hard to ignore.
Here’s a trivia question, who’s the only AFL player in the Pro Football Hall Of Fame never to play against NFL competition?? Answer is 5/8 Billy Shaw. The only season he didn’t go to the Pro Bowl was his rookie one.
These are the AFL HOFers not in the Pro Football Hall Of Fame as players. I put a star by the ones I think are worthy of discussion. I put two stars by the ones I support.
Tommy Addison
*Houston Antwine
*Fred Arbanas
Stew Barber
Al Bemiller
*Verlon Biggs
Marlin Briscoe
**Ed Budde
Chris Burford
Ron Burton
George “Butch” Byrd
Billy Cannon
Gino Cappelletti
Larry Carwell
Clem Daniels
Ben Davidson
Tom Day
Bob Dee
Elbert Dubenion
Jim Dunaway
Speedy Duncan
Booker Edgerson
Larry Eisenhauer
Earl Faison
Miller Farr
Tom Flores
Don Floyd
Larry Garron
Claude “Hoot” Gibson
Cookie Gilchrist
Pete Gogolak
Austin “Goose” Gonsoulin
Kenny Graham
**Larry Grantham
**Dave Grayson
*John Hadl
Wayne Hawkins
Abner Haynes
Sherrill Headrick
Charlie Hennigan
*E. J. Holub
Bobby Hunt
Jim Hunt
Rich Jackson
Harry Jacobs
Bobby Jancik
Bob Kalsu
*Jack Kemp
Dave Kocourek
Ernie Ladd
*Daryle Lamonica
Jacky Lee
Keith Lincoln
Paul Lowe
Jim Lynch
Paul Maguire
Bill Mathis
* Jerry Mays
Curtis McClinton
Wahoo McDaniel
Ron McDole
Gene Mingo
*Jon Morris
Jim Nance
Jim Norton
Vito “Babe” Parilli
Gerry Philbin
Dick Post
**Art Powell
Paul Rochester
Tobin Rote
*George Saimes
George Sauer
Tom Sestak
Matt Snell
*Mike Stratton
*Walt Sweeney
*Bob Talamini
*Lionel Taylor
**Otis Taylor
Charlie Tolar
John Tracey
Frank Tripucka
Jim Turner
**Jim Tyrer
Ernie Warlick
George Webster
**Jerrel Wilson
Ernie Wright
Question, anyone know why John Henry Johnson is in the AFL HOF?
Some of us are critical of the PFHOF: there seems to be a lot of questionable players in the AFL HOF. Just an observation. :)
Buffalo never won SBs but I get your point. Other than certain Browns players, the AAFC never had enough representation in the HOF like the AFL or USFL. Thats the way it is … Its mostly for NFL players only.
Shaw was a true exception, though Talamini and Sweeney were just as deserving. I just dont believe too many more AFL players will get a chance. Lionel Taylor is the perfect example of a dominant AFL player who should represent the league in the HOF but may not ever get that chance because he represented their pre-merger days. My feeling is when the Hall allows the AFL’s all time leading scorer like Cappelletti in, it might open things up for other players but until that happens, its very doubtful …
Not to nitpick but HOF player Doug Atkins had some of his best pass rushing seasons with the Saints and Klecko will be the Jets first defensive player in the HOF, though Grantham and Biggs had great careers themselves. Had Gerry Philbin not had shoulder problems, he would have gotten voted in first. He was as tough and ornery as linemen like Biggs, who had the talent but played when he wanted too …
Of course I know Buffalo hasn’t won a SB. lol Does it feel like Don Coryell’s nomination opens the door for other HC’s who didn’t go to a SB like Marty Shottenhiemer? The football announcer was talking about Marty’s greatness during one of the game’s. I like to hear that. I like it when they bring out great players of the past in calling a game and don’t analyze the game to death. Announcers like Curt Gowdy used give credit to players of the past. He was my favorite.
Being an offensive innovator and coach helped Coryell similar to Sid Gillman. Hopefully it will help Shaughnessy as well, who did those things before everybody but time will tell with coaches like Marty and Chuck Knox who consistently won but failed in the postseason. Marty never truly innovated but built big, tough teams like Parcells and Knox built teams with tough defenses and running games but never had a great QB to take his teams all the way.
Are they deserving ? Absolutely but will wait awhile.
With the voters righting a wrong with Coryell, who had been a multiple finalist, we will see if coaches can continue their momentum of getting elected, though an owner or contributor will probably get the spot next year …
I would guess that with a combined coach-contributor category that the committee members will look to alternate selections-giving us a contributor (Kraft) for their 2024 finalist.
When I did my list for the top 25 senior snubs that didn’t make the semifinalist list, I forgot to add Billy Howton who got a raw deal throughout his career. Despite a phenomenal rookie season, he didnt make first team All-Pro but it evened out when he made his second All-Pro season in 1957 despite having less than a thousand yards receiving that season. Its bad enough he played on bad Packer and Cowboys teams but his union involvement got him jettisoned from the Packers and Browns. Still, with his great rookie season, being one of the few receivers to post multiple thousand-yard seasons in the 1950s, not to mention being the all-time leader in receptions and yardage when he retired, he deserves to have his case heard but its probably too late …
Some players that used to be snubs are off list because of recent consideration like Howley, Gradishar and Nobis. And others I just don’t support like Ken Anderson, Nolan Cromwell and Joey Browner.
These senior players I support but they never seem to get any love.
Jim Marshall – changed opinion on after new sack total
Dick Schafrath
Larry Grantham
Otis Taylor – he was a WR ahead of his time. A SB icon and if Bob Hayes can be in the HOF so can Taylor.
Ed Budde
Jim Tyrer
Jerrel Wilson
Art Powell
Jake Scott
Bob Keuchenburg – I’m including him because I believe most players that end up being a finalist repeatedly (8 times) like he did and Johnny Robinson (6 times) make the HOF. They don’t get put in the swamp as Kooch famously said. I fear unlike Johnny he will be snubbed again. I’ll have to see him make it to believe!!
Cornell Green _ changed my opinion. I like he converted to S and made PB twice
Harold Jackson
Isiah Robertson
Bill Bergey
L.C. Greenwood
Larry Brooks
Lemar Parrish
Harvey Martin
Matt Blair
Mike Kenn
Joe Jacoby – changed opinion on after Covert got in. lol He was key for SB wins.
Lester Hayes
Ottis Anderson
Phil Simms
Deron Cherry
Clayton or Duper
Gary Clark
Clay Matthews – changed opinion on
Karl Mecklenburg
Corneilus Bennett
Steve McMichael
Need to be in before they reach Seniors
Nate Newton
Eric Allen
Richmond Webb
Steve Wisniewski
Darren Woodson
Leslie O’Neal
Y’all probably know about this site . It’s a good one.
https://futurefootballlegends.com/
Yeah, the futurefootballlegends site is interesting though head-scratching as well … All-Decade choices get a lot of points, though many choices were flawed … Good choices TonyP.
Wisniewski is definitely a wrong that needs to be righted but we will see. Many great players are really lacking in accolades due to the competition at the time.
My position on Tom Sestak has changed. A short career sure but he started 90 of 96 games and could be dominant. He was nearly DROY and an all-star his rookie year before being a three-time All-Pro, winning two out of three championships.
His case though AFL, is as good as Jim Ray Smith who many people believe should be in the HOF, though he was injured a lot. How Grayson isn’t in the HOF is a head-scratcher as well because he was a four time All-Pro at both corner and safety with two AFL championships. Robinson’s election could help him later … If the voters don’t turn their heads away from the AFL forever …
I forgot Dave Grayson. He has a good case. Mark Clayton got some traction this last go around. DE Neil Smith was one of my favorite players but I think he comes up slightly short but he could get in. O’Neal is a little better IMO and more deserving.
Whether Mark Clayton truly has traction will be seen if he again makes the senior semi-finalist next year.
Need to be in before they reach Seniors
Nate Newton
Eric Allen
Richmond Webb
Steve Wisniewski
Darren Woodson
Leslie O’Neal
I would rank their chances as Seniors at Newton (0%), Allen (40%), Webb (70%), Wisnieswki (60%), Woodson (80%), O’Neil (25%) as there are already a strong set of 25 modern semifinalists and upcoming first ballots next several years will move into the list.
As to seniors, I will start with class of 23 semifinalists (25 names) as with 3 seniors per year 2023-2025 that’s likely where those 9 slots go and for 2026 and beyond it depends on whether Hall continues with 3 per year or 2 per year-either way that 25 represents another 6-9 years of elections 2026 and beyond. Seniors committee has lots of work ahead just to address those 25 regardless of other seniors moving onto list (as total 6 will in 2024 and 2025 election cycles to replace those elected)
Paul, why so down on Nate Newton? Didn’t he a Stepnoski open a lot of holes up the middle for Emmitt Smith? I know it’s tougher for Guards to impress the HOF committee ie 6/9 Alan Faneca. Or do you think the system is too packed with better players and he goes into the Swamp like Kuechenburg? I’d give Newton a 5% chance. He did play on a 3 time SB Champion. I believe he will be given good consideration in his last year of eligibility.
Guards have one of the hardest path to PFHOF election-just ask yourself are there any in Hall with just two 1st team all pro selections and no all decade team, or look at case of 1990s second team all decade, 8x all pro (2x first team) OG Steve Wisniewski who can’t seem to make any movement towards election- that’s why I give Nate Newton no chance
When do you think the ballot will come out? Seems like it should be any day now. I honestly love seeing the ton of names on it.
1/6 Bob Kuechenburg was a Finalist 8 times but I hear you. I also think Newton’s problems with the law and narcissistic attitude towards the media may be a factor though it shouldn’t. I never saw the attitude, I only saw him as happy go lucky. Newton was a two time All Pro. He recently was elected into the Black College HOF.
preliminary modern candidate list for class of 2023 should come out 3rd week in September (was released by Hall on Sept 22 last year)
I said I didn’t think Nate Newton’s law breaking with him getting busted with over 200 pounds of marijuana and participating in illegal dog fighting should keep him out of the HOF. But obviously the HOF Committee Voting Members draw the line somewhere with bad behavior i.e. Jim Tyrer. Should they keep Newton out of the HOF based on his record also?
OJ Simpson can never be removed from the HOF unless they change the rule. I’m curious if anyone knows if in the HOF there’s any mention of him being found guilty of murder in a civil case? I think there should be.
My wider question is, do you think Darren Sharper will EVER enter the HOF? He was evil what he did much like Bill Cosby. Both are sick! This is the latest info on his case.
https://nypost.com/2022/06/08/darren-sharper-settles-lawsuits-with-three-rape-accusers/
Never thought Sharper was HOF level even if he didn’t have the legal issues, doubt there’s any chance of it now. Was surprised to see his 5/2 profile when I checked—would have guessed more like 4/0 for him.
I have no doubt that being a All Decade Team player with 63 Int’s and 9 returned for TD and addition 2 Fumble Recovery TD’s would have eventually have made the HOF. He was really riding high after winning the SB with the Saints having had a career year. Now I can’t stand to look at the guy because I see a real sleazeball. I bet most people that know of him feel like that. He sure screwed up his life not to mention a bunch of women’s. I hope he is repenting to God doing better.. I don’t see how he ever gets his reputation back even a little. It’s very sad.
It was good seeing Von Miller and Aaron Donald adding to their HOF resumes with sacks last night. Pat Swilling has similar sack numbers to Miller as a LB and Steve McMichael has sack numbers similar to Donald as a DT. Do either of those two have a shot at the HOF?
Pat Swilling had big athletic talent. His sacks are impressive and he had three above average years but he comes up short for me. And he comes up significantly short of his HOF teammate Rickey Jackson. Jackson had more tackles at 35 years old than Swilling ever had in a season during his career.
IMO McMichael’s role on the Bears was undervalued by the media and if given serious consideration will be found deserving of the HOF. I believe Dan Hampton being in the HOF will help his case like Lynn Swann helped John Stallworth though that happened much quicker.
Swilling was just as good as Tippett and was All-Pro more than Jackson, though not the total player.
Will wait after at least six to seven linebackers though. McMichael has a case as well but will be behind at least two or three DTs … Tough position to be voted in for seniors …
Von Miller can be the piece the Bills need to go all the way but he has to stay on the field. I dont believe he will stay healthy though …
” I’m curious if anyone knows if in the HOF there’s any mention of him being found guilty of murder in a civil case? I think there should be. ”
No there is not, nor should there be, nothing in the Hall or profiles of PFHOF reflects on or refers to post career life. Not excusing what OJ did but there need to be a line regarding post career lives as its a slippery slope if that starts to be added, especially if Hall has no policy or procedure to remove a PFHOFer,
Although his bust was once stolen………
How O.J. Simpson’s Hall of Fame Bust Ended Up on a Cleveland Interstate
https://www.sportscasting.com/how-oj-simpson-hall-of-fame-bust-ended-up-on-a-cleveland-interstate/
“On Sunday, July 23, 1995, the Pro Football Hall of Fame was gearing up for Enshrinement Week for a class that included Steve Largent and Kellen Winslow. The kickoff parade had taken place that afternoon and the Associated Press estimated that some 1,300 people had visited the museum at some point during the day. And one of those 1,300 walked right out of the building with the two-foot-tall, 35-pound bust of O.J. Simpson. Just right out the front door.
One would have to think that it was taken pretty close to closing time as it had obviously become one of the biggest attractions in Canton. Hall of Fame officials said that no extra precautions had been taken to guard that one bust as they didn’t feel that it would have any value on the open market since it was a one-of-a-kind piece that could easily be identified, which meant that whoever tried to sell it would be easy to identify as well.
The very next day, it was found 50 miles away on Interstate 77 in Cleveland. It was unharmed and returned to its rightful place in the Hall, where it still remains today. The police released a sketch of a possible suspect but no arrest was ever made. To this day, nobody has ever come forward and confessed to the crime. “
New thread coming up Paul ?
Hopefully, more new players enter the preliminary list and they get drop some that didn’t belong …
Its still possible we could see 4-6 defensive players as part of the Class Of 2023
not sure about new thread-that’s a question for our hosts…..would sure seem be be timely for a fresh class of 2023 topic….
Brian, I think saying Swilling was as good as Tippett makes my case that Swilling is iffy because Tippett was a little bit of a head scratcher for a lot of us. Not that he wasn’t deserving but he wasn’t on many of our radars. He still isn’t. lol Not a name I remember for greatness.
Athlon Sports, a high quality source has Rickey Jackson as one of the most underrated LB’s in history and I would agree. He’s number 22 on their all time LB list. Among the OLB L.T. , Derrick Thomas, Jack Ham, Junior Seau, Chuck Bednarik, Bobby Bell, Derrick Brooks, Ted Hendricks, Demarcus Ware, Harry Carson, Terrell Suggs and Kevin Greene are ahead of him. Tippett and Swilling didn’t make the top 25 but got honorable mention. Patrick Willis, Sam Huff and James Harrison round out the top 25.
Jackson was a 6 time All Pro and 6 time PBer. I don’t know when it became in vogue to count 2nd team AP in credentials but every writer is doing it now. I think it was mentioned maybe by Paul? Maybe not but it’s good not to get too hung up on AP All Pro when there were several publications that gave out All Pro opinions. I think we should look at their accolades records in totality. I understand we put a little more weight on Associated Press but they don’t always get it right. If a guy is 2nd Team and 5 other publications have him as 1st team we should take into consideration.
No shame in Jackson not making the AP 1st Team (he made it many times else where) with the likes of Lawrence Taylor in the League gobbling up half of them. Tippett and Swilling did have a couple sensational years each earning 1st Team All Pro . Their sacks were more flashy than anyone else except LT. Although I remember Jackson being flashy when he hit the NFL but he came in the same year as LT and he didn’t play in NY. :) Jackson did make a splash because the Saints were so bad. He was a bright spot. :) I wonder if there’s ever been a QB that went to multiple Pro Bowls or even one with as bad of a winning record as Archie Manning? 35-101-3
Harry Carson never made Associated Press 1st Team either and he was a tackling machine. That guy played like Jackson with a lot heart and determination. They didn’t take plays off. I remember when Carson and the Giants D was all the they had going for the team. They were a tough out even if they did lose a lot. Brad Van Pelt was heck of a tackler too.
Good opinions TonyP, though I feel Carson is overrated. He had to tackle more because LT was pass rushing. Great at the goalline though. Banks replaced him later and people clamor for him making the Hall as well but you cant put in all of them. Tippett made a big splash in the AFC before Swilling thrived in the NFC but its doubtful he will make it anytime soon after Jackson and Mills. I like Mills but didnt feel he was HOF worthy over Marshall, Joyner or Thomas.
I don’t know where the overrated comes from because I remember Harry Carson as HOF great before LT. Maybe it has something to do with being compared to his teammate? Or maybe there’s some dislike because he tooted his own horn so loudly. I have to admit it turned off some of my support for him.
Carson is deserving but the only thing that bothers me is you see someone like Maxie Baughan with an equal profile or a little better waiting for 40 plus years. Do you think the fact there were fewer Teams back in the day making it easier to earn accolades comes into play with the thinking now? It shouldn’t but maybe?
Carson had always been a good to great linebacker but he never had the publicity until after Taylor. I worried about him watching Cowboys games but never believed he was a HOF type linebacker, though he got better with age.
Accolades should always help a player, regardless of era but both Carson and Baughan were heavy on pro bowls rather than making All-Pro.
Gradishar and Mecklenberg were better in my view.
and for those interested Talk of Fame is dead – Gosselin as voter and one of major contributors to posts there, now has his own site which includes PFHOF stories – https://rickgosselin.com/
and has this recent story posted there:
” Canton’s Most Glaring (And Forgotten) Omissions – Ed Budde, Maxie Baughan & Eddie Meador among the most worthy senior candidates”
https://rickgosselin.com/category/hall-of-fame
Thanks a bunch Paul, I just commented on Gosselin’s site. Glad he was able to republish or renew the State Your Case’s articles. Hopefully Clark, Ron, John, Andy, TJ and others can contribute articles to the site as well …
Not sure what plans Clark or Ron have in terms of continuing to post PFHOF content on a website or blog, but Clark has been a regular guest on the radio blog The Eye Test for Two so perhaps that is where he will be discussing his PFHOF opinions
Ballot is out. My prediction for enshrinement is Darrelle Revis Zach Thomas, Joe Thomas, Tory Holt and DeMarcus Ware. I think that is a very solid group.
I like that Brad- I think that might be mine as well. Although I think Andre Johnson was a better WR than Holt. I believe Holt will go in first.
I predict Joe Thomas for 2023, Revis in 2024 and Freeney in 2026 …
Hoping Nalen, Wisniewski, A Lewis, O Neil and Allen make further progress but we will see.
I feel like Nalen will follow the same path as Kent Hull and Jay Hilgenberg. Steve Wisniewski should have been in by now. Leslie O’Neil and Albert Lewis feel like eventual Senior selections. Eric Allen feels like a guy who will get lost in the senior abyss. How do you guys feel about James Harrison? Does he have a chance to at least be a semifinalist?
My Semi prediction
Devin Hester
Andre Johnson
Hines Ward
Zach Thomas
Joe Thomas
Darrelle Revis
DeMarcus Ware
Torry Holt
Patrick Willis
Ronde Barber
Jared Allen
Reggie Wayne
Willie Anderson
Dwight Freeney
Hines Ward
Anquan Boldin
Jahri Evans
Shane Lechler
Vince Wilfork
Kevin Williams
Shaun Alexander
Nick Mangold
Steve Wisniewski
Darren Woodson
Steve Smith Sr.
This is actually a very deep ballot. Those who I considered would be a nice semi class in itself
Donovan McNabb
Corey Dillon
Eddie George
Fred Taylor
Ricky Watters
Ben Coates
Logan Mankins
Nate Newton
John Abraham
Simeon Rice
Neil Smith
Robert Mathis
Leslie O’Neal
Cornelius Bennett
London Fletcher
Eric Allen
In about 4-5 years, as more are inducted I see those on my 2nd tier make their way into the mix, At the same time, we are going to experience more falling off the ballot due to eligibility.
Id add James Harrison to my 2nd list.
Harrison was a great player Brad but also is another Steeler linebacker that might get overlooked like Russell, Lloyd, Brown, Porter, Farrior and Nickerson, though Porter and Russell were light on accolades while Nickerson excelled with TB … I felt Harrison was similar to Greg Lloyd.
Maybe Talkoffamenetwork isnt dead after all, Paul.
Clark Judge just did an article on the SI site, though it was on recent games …
yea I saw that, first new post/story since May, perhaps he will keep it a float, be interesting to see if he (or Borges) continue to post Hall stories there as well, whatever the issue was its clear Gosselin decided to move on from it and set up his own website/blog
plus as 5 are elected and come off 2023 list (and future years) we are also of course getting influx of new first year candidates appearing on ballot, many of whom will push some of these 2023 nominees right off the list (thats just the way the cycle flows):
2024: DE Julius Peppers (CAR)*, TE Antonio Gates (SD)*
2025: LB Luke Kuechly (CAR)*, RB Marshawn Lynch (SEA), QB Eli Manning (NYG), OG Marshal Yanda (BAL), LB Terrell Suggs (BAL), K Adam Vinatieri (NE), OC Travis Frederick (DAL), KR/PR/RB Darren Sproles (PHI), S Earl Thomas (SEA)
2026: QB Drew Brees (NO)*, WR Larry Fitzgerald (ARZ)*, QB Philip Rivers (SD), TE Jason Witten (DAL), RB Frank Gore (SF), TE Greg Olson (CAL), OC Maurkice Pouncy (PITT), WR Julian Edelman(NE), LeSean Mccoy (PHIL)
2027 QB BenR (PITT)*, RB Adrian Peterson (MINN)*, TE Rod Gronkowski (NE/TB)*, CB Richard Sherman (SEA), OL Andrew Whitworth (CIN/LAR), S Eric Weddle (SD/LAR), C Alex Mack (CLE)
“I felt Harrison was similar to Greg Lloyd.” That’s a very good comparison Brian. Greg Lloyd gets forgotten IMO but he was great for a time. I liked Carnell Lake too. If the Steelers had beaten the Cowboys in the SB they might be in the HOF discussion more? Still can’t believe the gift INT’s O’Donnell threw in that game. Larry Brown didn’t do zip after that big game. He hit the lottery that day. lol
Good list Brad!
I’d say these players are a HOF priority in this order. If they aren’t on the list I wouldn’t be inclined to support them for the HOF.
Zach Thomas
DeMarcus Ware
Jared Allen
Joe Thomas
Darrelle Revis
Ronde Barber
Eric Allen
Cornelius Bennett
Darren Woodson
Nate Newton
Hines Ward
Andre Johnson
Corey Dillon
Richmond Webb
Shane Lechler
Donovan McNabb
Leslie O’Neal
Steve Smith
Steve Wisniewski
Fred Taylor
Reggie Wayne
Steve McNair
Shaun Alexander
Neil Smith
Simeon Rice
John Abraham
Kevin Williams
Nick Mangold
Torry Holt
Devin Hester
London Fletcher
Ben Coates
Vince Wilfork
No on Dwight Freeney, a worse pick than Richard Dent. No on Eddie George with his 3.6 YPC.
This is the greatest 32 QB’s of all time according The Delite pub. “based on a combination of traditional stats, advanced metrics, wins, playoff performances and legacy.”
Of course I don’t agree with all but it’s their formula. I’ve always though Len Dawson and Bob Griese were both great and pretty close to the same and neither is on the list. I guess the old guard has to make way for the new guard like Tony Romo. That said, the one that really surprises me is Dan Fouts being omitted. I’d put him ahead of Ken Anderson and Phil Simms but I suppose he just missed. Maybe he would be 33. lol I also might put Drew Brees a little lower and Aaron Rodgers a little higher but that’s probable splitting hairs. Also I think Terry Bradshaw is a little overrated. Trent Dilfer could have won a couple of those Steelers’ Super Bowls.
1. Tom Brady
2. Joe Montana
3. Peyton Manning
4. Johnny Unitas
5. Otto Graham
6. Drew Brees
7. Dan Marino
8. Roger Staubach
9. John Elway
10. Aaron Rodgers
11. Sammy Baugh
12. Brett Favre
13. Bart Starr
14 Troy Aikman
15. Steve Young
16. Sid Luckman
17. Terry Bradshaw
18 Russell Wilson
19. Ben Rothlisberger
20. Donovan McNabb
21. Sonny Jurgensen
22. Kurt Warner
23. Jim Kelly
24. Warren Moon
25. Fran Tarkington
26. Phillip Rivers
27. Norm Van Brocklin
28. Tony Romo
29. Ken Anderson
30. Randall Cunningham
31. Phil Simms
32. Drew Bledsoe
A very strange QB list … Fouts alone could throw better than most of them. Maybe it was based upon total athleticism but there is no way Brees was better than many of them.
Sorry TonyP but I don’t think Dilfer would have stood a chance against the Vikings, Cowboys or Rams … Haha
That’s advanced metrics! LOL They don’t officially include the eye test like everyone else. Tony Romo has the fourth best Career QB Rating 97.2 of all time only behind Rodgers (104.1), Wilson (99.6) and Tom Brady (97.2). I guess he’s in about the right place than because he’s not big in legacy. If he wasn’t an announcer I would have already forgotten about him. lol
But is he a HOF QB? To me it feels like just when he was going to solidify his place he got hurt.
Romo falls short on the main criteria voters look for in QBs-lacks playoff wins, major awards and top 10 career passing yard and TDs, he has been forgotten so much that although eligible since the class of 2022 no one has even made the effort to nominate him to the preliminary list the last two election cycles (when anyone can nominate any eligible player), heck even Jake Delhomme, Jeff Garcia, Dave Krieg are getting nominated.
Jason Peters is played tonight so his eligibility will be pushed back until 2028. That’ll sorta help a player one year to get in who are or will be on the ballot in the future. I suspect he makes the HOF in his first 4-5 ballots. His longevity has been amazing.
I am surprised Tony Romo hasn’t made the ballot. I wouldn’t say Canton worthy, but as Paul pointed out, QBs with “worse” resumes are on it. Also shocked Vinny Testaverde and Drew Bledsoe have fallen off it for now. They retired in top 6-7 in most major categories. That alone should be ballot worthy. If only Vinny and the Jets beat the Broncos in the 1998 AFC Championship Game and to be honest probably would have topped the Falcons. Would have been a great Super Bowl. That would have propelled Vinny’s HOF candidacy ( I’m a big Jets fan).
Dave Krieg was a heck of a QB and the best of that group. He might have been a Drew Brees in another time. :)
It was hard for Krieg to get accolades in the 1980’s-90’s with so many great QB’s. IMO he was one of the best QB’s in the AFC for a long time of course behind Fouts, Elway, Marino, Kelly, Moon and maybe Esiason. I can see why he’s being given consideration. Krieg led 2 different teams to the playoffs and made appearances in 7 years.
He did come up short repeatedly in the playoffs and only had a 3-6 record. His one downfall as I saw was they said he had small hands and he did fumble a lot. I would think he’s at least the equal to Roman Gabriel a player whose name comes up for HOF.
I’d have hard accepting Tony Romo in the HOF and Dave Krieg not. lol
Jason Peters OT on 2010s all decade, replaced (in part) another OT on 2010s all decade team-Tyron Smith. And both have strong PFHOF cases. Would seem rare to have a player on an all decade team replace another player on same all decade team- just an interesting situation. And very possible that if Smith returns to play this season, and very likely this could also be his final season, the “teammates” could end up on PFHOF ballot the same year.
And not to worry as neither Kreig or Romo (or Jake Delhomme, Jeff Garcia) are ever making the Hall-many of the players showing up on this annual preliminary list never get elected.
I can only think of one QB in the HOF that never went to a SB and that’s Dan Fouts. Ironically the next could be another Charger in Phillip Rivers. And if there’s a Head Coach he would also be a Charger in Marty Schottenheimer.
Warren Moon is another, as to coaches class of 2023 coach nominee Don Coryell (will be elected) also never went to SB as HC
and Phillip Rivers will be very interesting pilot case for PFHOF voters on how to consider the 2000 era QBs who are putting up huge historical career passing stats, is that enough for a QB like Rivers who has no SB, no all pro selection, led league in passing yards once (2010), TDs once (tied 2008), passing rating once (2008), so case largely build on 8c pro bowls (not as significant factor given all the PB replacements in recent history), and 6th in career passing, 6th career passing TDs-is that enough, is that PFHOF resume?? Will be for voters to consider
I don’t believe Rivers will make it but he might as a thrower, like Fouts, Moon and Jurgensen. The real question is whether Eli will make it, which may open room for other QBs but who knows ?
Could the Manning name be just enough, despite a bad, last five years to his career ?
Clay Matthews just retired. Been out of the league for 2 years. He was on his way to Canton and then his prime wore off. Think he is ballot worthy and nothing else. Who knows. 60 years from maybe Senior Nominee lol. Very solid career though.
The Same Richard Dent Tony that had 137.5 sacks im sorry im going to disagree
I didn’t say Richard Dent shouldn’t be in the HOF; I just viewed him as having one of the weaker cases at only 1/4 and because of the way he loafed at times. He was excellent at sacking the QB when motivated. I do think 1/4 must be the lowest number for a DE in the HOF but have no issue now with him being in the HOF
Problem for me is I see Freeney as an even weaker candidate despite his accolades. He’s truly a one trick pony so I’d leave him out of the HOF all together. He’ll probably eventually make it though because of his accolades in a weak time for DE in the AFC. Jason Taylor was the cream of the crop being the most complete player but even he had some trouble with the run because at his weight 244 lbs he could be moved. He did make up some with his quickness and agility.
As far as I’m concerned Taylor was the only DE from the AFC of the 2010’s who deserves to be in the HOF. HOFer Richard Seymour was just a little above average in tackles and mediocre in sacks for a star DE. Compare him to Will Smith a one time PBer. I know some want to say it was the Defense Seymour was in but the numbers don’t lie. And Freeney the 3rd star DE in the AFC was very weak at getting tackles but stood out stripping the ball and sacking the QB due to one patented spin move. As quick and fast as he was there’s no excuse to only get into 350 tackles over 150 games played. That’s 2.5 a game but doesn’t a sack count as a tackle at Pro Sports Reference? If so that’s just over one “tackle” a game. Other than sacking the QB he did next to nothing. I thought his teammate Robert Mathis was a better player. I hope they cancel each other out or Mathis gets into the HOF instead.
RIP Marvin Powell, a former Jets great Right Tackle. Remember him well from his college days playing for the “student body right” , USC Trojans. Ironically he ended up blocking for UCLA great RB Freeman McNeil with the Jets.
Eli will eventually make PFHOF but unless another QB comes along with 2-SB MVPs, I don’t see how his election helps other QBs
(Brady and BenR are getting without his help as is Brees). Eli won’t get in because of the Manning name, it’s the 2 SB MVPs with those playoff seasons and beating the dynasty Patriots with GOATs BillB and Brady including an undefeated team. Don’t see how that helps any other QBs eligible or any current or recent QBs.
Maybe Brian is talking about two time SB winning QB Jim Plunkett? I don’t know who I would pick in a hypothetical Draft between Eli Manning and Jim Plunkett. As much as I liked Plunkett I don’t think he deserves HOF and neither does Eli. Neither one had HOF careers IMO despite being clutch is some of the biggest games.
Phil Simms and possibly Joe Theismann are other QB’s that could be helped by an Eli Manning HOF election. One could say Ken Anderson would help those guys too.
Two SB MVP is more (and not same) as one – big difference between cases for Plunkett Simms Theismann and Eli
I’m not so sure SB MVP is that important in Eli’s case. Not trying to diminish Eli’s TD drive with the miraculous catch for David Tyree and TD pass Plaxico Burress but if anyone would have suggested the Giants would hold that 18-0 Patriots to 14 points than they also would have thought the MVP was on the Defense. If I remember correctly Justin Tuck had a great game as did the whole defensive line.
The second what I remember most is Wes Welker misjudging a sure TD pass late in the game. Eli did have a very good day passing the ball. No one else stood out in a relatively low scoring game 21-17. The Giants held Tom Brady down again.
Eli will be remembered for his Playoff body of work in two SB runs. IMO his most impressive feat was going to Lambeau Field and beating the heavily favored Packers on their frozen field. I don’t think many people gave him a chance. Maybe they should have considering Brett Favre’s knack for imploding in big moments due to his gambler’s mentality. Much like Dan Marino , he never saw a throw he couldn’t make. lol
Eli will also be remembered outside of the folks in New York for being a mediocre QB for a whole lot of seasons after winning the 2nd SB. Hard to understand with his talent.
Except the only reason Eli is getting in Hall is the 2x SB MVP – if it was just the two SB playoff winning runs he would not get serious consideration
Maybe you’re right it’s the power of TWO. One is just nice. I’m thinking about Jake Scott’s SB MVP which obviously doesn’t carry much weight with the voters or his 2/5 profile would have him in the HOF. Nor should it IMO. One game out of a hundred plus. Could say the same for Chuck Howley. If SB MVP made a difference he would have been in a long time ago with his profile. They just had a good game on the biggest stage like Timmy Smith and Larry Brown. lol
Yea as you note one SB MVP hasn’t helped many (gee just look at Chuck Howley even with 5x first time all pro and waited decades to be finally get elected). But I think two SB MVP is a totally different case, two playoff runs and wins over the decade dynasty team with coach GOAT and QB GOAT including undefeated team, and yea I know miracle catches and great Giant defenses we huge parts of the SB wins. Personally I am unenthusiastic about Eli in PFHOF, in fact really don’t care one way or another, but realistic as to how voters will view his case and eventually (3-5 years?? on ballot) elect him.
My thing with Eli is….you want to debate over who should be in PFHOF or even who is in but not deserving…..either way I am not starting with Eli as my example….many others I would go to first…..
I agree Eli is not as polarizing as some.
I just feel that even now (two years before he even appears on the ballot) discussion around his case can often dominate talk about PFHOF and candidates, when there are many others deserving of debate right now as are on ballot, plus one could make the case for several others already in Hall that they are not deserving, including some even more questionable than Eli (if the question is about one’s qualifications to be in Hall). But discussing his case sucks way too much of the air out of the general PFHOF conversations-and he’s not even yet on the ballot. Thats just annoying and frustrating.
TonyP- I disagree with your assessment of Seymour. In the 3-4 he was expected to set the edge for the run, and on passing situations to rush QB on the inside 2-Gap. in this position, he may be the best of All-Time,
The only other 3-4 DE’s in the HOF are: Bruce Smith, Lee Roy Selmon, Howie Long and Elvin Bethea. The difference is, that they didn’t rush from the 2-Gap, they generally rushed the edge with the Inside LB’s taking care of the 2-Gap. When Lineman got bigger (during Seymour’s career), it was not as effective having ILB’s filling the 2-Gap. This is why sometimes Seymour was listed as a DT in his career.
Can’t always go by the numbers, and Seymour is a perfect example of this.
Justin Tucker has been on fire. Kickers and special teams players for that matter do not get a lot of love. But I do think he is a HOFer if he can play another 4-5 years. His is statistically the most accurate kicker ever. Also he is super clutch. His long distance % is insane too. Doesn’t hurt that he owns the longest field goal made.
RIP Charley Trippi- Long and successful life. Who is the current oldest living HOFamer?
Done posting here until there is a new fresh thread for class of 2023
@Paul – I understand the concerns about not having the new post, will try to get one posted by this weekend.
Bill,
Jim Brown and Jerry Kramer are 86 years old and Chuck Howley will be 87 when he goes in. I’m sure some HOFers are older.
Hey everyone–new 2023 post is slated to go live a little before 5pm, just giving Andy a chance to edit/weigh in on his picks on it as well.
Thanks Tony …