The Pro Football Hall of Fame released it’s list of Semifinalists Tuesday morning, knocking the list down to 25 names for consideration for the final 5 in the Class of 2024. The biggest surprise? Likely that it wasn’t turned into an hour long prime time special for NFL Network </snark>.
The list of semifinalists, straight from ProFootballHallofFame.com:
- Eric Allen, CB – 1988-1994 Philadelphia Eagles, 1995-97 New Orleans Saints, 1998-2001 Oakland Raiders | (Times as a Semifinalist: 4 – 2021-24)
- Jared Allen, DE – 2004-07 Kansas City Chiefs, 2008-2013 Minnesota Vikings, 2014-15 Chicago Bears, 2015 Carolina Panthers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 4 – 2021-24)
- Willie Anderson, T – 1996-2007 Cincinnati Bengals, 2008 Baltimore Ravens | (Times as a Semifinalist: 4 – 2021-24)
- Tiki Barber, RB – 1997-2006 New York Giants | (Times as a Semifinalist: 1 – 2024)
- Anquan Boldin, WR – 2003-09 Arizona Cardinals, 2010-12 Baltimore Ravens, 2013-15 San Francisco 49ers, 2016 Detroit Lions | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 – 2022-24)
- Jahri Evans, G – 2006-2016 New Orleans Saints, 2017 Green Bay Packers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 2 – 2023-24)
- London Fletcher, LB – 1998-2001 St. Louis Rams, 2002-06 Buffalo Bills, 2007-2013 Washington Redskins | (Times as a Semifinalist: 2 – 2023-24)
- Dwight Freeney, DE – 2002-2012 Indianapolis Colts, 2013-14 San Diego Chargers, 2015 Arizona Cardinals, 2016 Atlanta Falcons, 2017 Seattle Seahawks, 2017 Detroit Lions | (Times as a Semifinalist: 2 – 2023-24)
- Antonio Gates, TE – 2003-2018 San Diego/Los Angeles Chargers (First Year Eligible)
- Eddie George, RB – 1996-2003 Houston/Tennessee Oilers/Titans, 2004 Dallas Cowboys (Times as a Semifinalist: 2 – 2022, 2024)
- James Harrison, LB – 2002-2012, 2014-17 Pittsburgh Steelers, 2013 Cincinnati Bengals, 2017 New England Patriots | (Times as a Semifinalist: 2 – 2023-24)
- Rodney Harrison, S – 1994-2002 San Diego Chargers, 2003-08 New England Patriots | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 – 2021, 2023-24)
- Devin Hester, PR/KR/WR – 2006-2013 Chicago Bears, 2014-15 Atlanta Falcons, 2016 Baltimore Ravens | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 – 2022-24)
- Torry Holt, WR – 1999-2008 St. Louis Rams, 2009 Jacksonville Jaguars | (Times as a Semifinalist: 10 – 2015-2024)
- Andre Johnson, WR – 2003-2014 Houston Texans, 2015 Indianapolis Colts, 2016 Tennessee Titans | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 – 2022-24)
- Robert Mathis, DE/LB – 2003-2016 Indianapolis Colts | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 – 2022-24)
- Julius Peppers, DE – 2002-09, 2017-18 Carolina Panthers, 2010-13 Chicago Bears, 2014-15 Green Bay Packers (First Year Eligible)
- Steve Smith Sr., WR – 2001-2013 Carolina Panthers, 2014-16 Baltimore Ravens | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 – 2022-24)
- Fred Taylor, RB – 1998-2008 Jacksonville Jaguars, 2009-2010 New England Patriots | (Times as a Semifinalist: 5 – 2020-24)
- Hines Ward, WR – 1998-2011 Pittsburgh Steelers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 8 – 2017-2024)
- Ricky Watters, RB – 1992-94 San Francisco 49ers, 1995-97 Philadelphia Eagles, 1998-2001 Seattle Seahawks | (Times as a Semifinalist: 4 – 2020, 2022-24)
- Reggie Wayne, WR – 2001-2014 Indianapolis Colts | (Times as a Semifinalist: 5 – 2020-24)
- Vince Wilfork, DT – 2004-2014 New England Patriots, 2015-16 Houston Texans | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 – 2022-24)
- Patrick Willis, LB – 2007-2014 San Francisco 49ers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 5 – 2020-24)
- Darren Woodson, S – 1992-2003 Dallas Cowboys | (Times as a Semifinalist: 8 – 2015, 2017, 2019-2024)
From that list, 10 more names will be trimmed to get to the list of 15 Modern-Era finalists in early January, who will be considered alongside Coach/Contributor Buddy Parker, and Senior Nominees Randy Gradishar, Steve McMichael and Art Powell. At a meeting before Super Bowl LVIII in Las Vegas in February, the selection committee will trim that list to 10, and then down to the final five, who will then be given a final Yes/No vote alongside the Coach/Contributor and Senior Nominees. It’s been years since the full slate of Modern-Era nominees didn’t get elected, though, to my recollection.
The finalists from the Class of 2023 to not make the final five included (bold indicates they were in the final 10):
- Jared Allen
- Willie Anderson
- Dwight Freeney
- Devin Hester
- Torry Holt
- Andre Johnson
- Albert Lewis
- Reggie Wayne
- Patrick Willis
- Darren Woodson
With three WR making the final 10 for the Class of 2023 but none making the final five–and only two first year semifinalists joining the list–this may be the year the voters clear up the logjam by getting at least 1-2 in.
Drop your thoughts/predictions in the comments below!
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Assume the 9 returning finalists as well as Gates and Peppers make up 11 of the 15 finalists. The next four are all wildcards. Jahri Evans seems likely. Maybe Eric Allen. If another receiver, I prefer Steve Smith (criminally underrated), but the voters will likely lean toward Ward. If another defender, Mathis or Wifork make sense. None of the RBs seem like HOFers to me (and I’m a big hall guy). Again, disappointing semifinalists list.
Still think the final five is fairly easy this year:
Peppers
Gates
J. Allen
WR (prefer Holt, but think Johnson is more likely)
Wildcard (Holt/Johnson, Anderson, Willis, or Woodson)
Predictable results, with the exception of adding backs, Barber and George to a list that surprisingly–to me–didnt include Brandon Marshall. Can Eric Allen, Watters or Ward keep advancing? As usual, simply not enough players from the interior lines making progress.
Class Of 2024
Wishlist — Moderns
Peppers
Gates
Woodson
E Allen
Ward
Predictions
Peppers
Gates
J Allen
A Johnson
Woodson
I had 23 out 25—missed on O’Neil and McDonald as thought voters might give them one last chance before they fall off modern ballot..did not have Tiki or Eddie George on my 25….but results really don’t chance my prediction for final 15 or 5 elected (Peppers,Gates,Holt,Wayne,JAllen). As to final 15, go with 9 returning from 2023 final 10 + Gates+Peppers and add EAllen, JEvans,FTaylor, Wilfork – really doubt voters will advance other WR or RB to final 15.
Surprised Paul, thought you would predict Johnson or Willis …
Which receiver after Gates? Which pass rusher other than Peppers?
Safety fatigue? Will Woodson continue to wait?
Willis and Anderson darkhorses, though Willis has a great chance.
Justin are you ever happy at all or do you love to nitpick
opps Brian I messed up my five there..should have been Peppers,Gates,AJohnson,Holt, JAllen…thanks for catching my error there
seems like critical unknown is that 2nd WR, seems like voters are going to certainly elect one (strongly think it will be AJohnson) or perhaps even two (add Holt)-hearing some voters are pushing to elect 2nd WR…but if not then yea could be Willis or Woodson in 5th slot.. Anderson first needs to make step from final 15 to final 10-perhaps he does so in 2024 but I doubt his immediate election
My prediction for the 15 finalists
Jared Allen
Willie Anderson
Tiki Barber
Jahri Evans
Dwight Freeney
Antonio Gates
Devin Hester
Torry Holt
Andre Johnson
Julius Peppers
Steve Smith Sr
Reggie Wayne
Hines Ward
Patrick Willis
Darren Woodson
I don’t think Tiki Barber and Hines Ward are Hall of Famer I only included them because I needed two more we’ll just see who the finalists are
I’m still can’t figure out why Richmond Webb Steve Wisniewski and Kevin Williams who were All Decade can’t make it as semi finalists
I’m surprised Shane Lechler didn’t make it granted he was a punter but still I’m surprised
Excited that the semi-finalists were announced, but similar to Justin, I’m finding this list underwhelming. I can appreciate that there is definitely a lack of consensus among voters beyond the top 10-15 candidates, but it’s frustrating to see nearly half the list being made up of 2 positions (RB and WR) and several positions with no or hardly any representation.
Not only that, but there are several players with decent to good Hall of Fame cases that retired between 1999 and 2001 that continue to get overlooked (Leslie O’Neal, Tim McDonald, Neil Smith, Cornelius Bennett, Ben Coates, Steve Wisniewski, Randall Cunningham, Nate Newton, Mark Stepnoski, Carnell Lake), and this will just add more glut to the senior pool.
With this year being light on good 1st year nominees, 2 slots open from Lewis and Ellard no longer being eligible, and SO many players on the preliminary nominee list, I guess I was thinking that we might get some outside of the box surprises. But instead…we got Tiki Barber, who will likely split votes with the other RBs and make it harder for Ricky Watters to advance.
I think that the more interesting cutoff is going to be the finalist cut down. Really hoping that Eric Allen or Ricky Watters can break through this time. I agree that Jahri Evans looks likely to make the jump. He’s got the best case in my opinion out of the returning semifinalists that missed the finalist cutoff last year.
The more I read about Steve Smith, the more I get confused about his case. He was no doubt held back a bit by serious injuries, inconsistent QB play and a desire by the Panthers to keep him focused on returning kicks/punts early in his career. However, I see more of a guy that put up consistent top 15-20 WR production with a couple of peak years, than a truly elite, clearly HOF-level receiver. He was only a 1st or 2nd team All-Pro twice as a WR, rarely ever finished near the top in yearly receiving categories (2 top 10s in receptions, 4 top 10s in receiving yards, 2 top 10s in receiving TDs over 16 seasons), and he doesn’t have any Super Bowl rings. He’s pretty high on the career reception and receiving yardage lists, so it’s inevitable that he’s going to get in, but I think his treatment from the Hall of Fame voters so far has been pretty fair. I would put him in the Hall over Ward and Boldin, but I don’t see him as a snub.
BSLO:
Here is the case for Steve Smith:
https://www.nfl.com/news/the-definitive-hall-of-fame-case-for-steve-smith-0ap3000000509117
To me, he also passes the eye test. A complete dynamo of a player that could have been Devin Hester as a returner, but was far more valuable as a WR. His playoff run in 2003 was fantastic. And he added a 12 catch, 218 yard playoff game in 2005. He is also rightly or wrongly helped by his relatively small size and magnetic personality. I would rank the WR as follows:
1) Holt (significantly ahead of the others)
2) Johnson
3) Smith
4) Wayne
5) Boldin (personal favorite)
6) Ward
There really isn’t much separating 3 – 6.
The problem the voters have is that they haven’t yet come to grips with how much the game has changed. A top 10-15 WR is more valuable than all but the top 2-3 RBs. Teams now play with at least three WRs on the field. Therefore, moving forward, there should be three times as many WRs in the HOF than RBs, QBs, and TEs (or as many as all three categories combined). Yet, the voters keep asking whether a WR was top 2-3 for the HOF. The top 2-3 should be 1st ballot guys. The next 3-6 should be debated and scrutinized. For me the line between HOF and HOVG is probably between 4 and 5 above. But, as a big hall guy, I would have no problem with all six getting in…along with Fitzgerald (and possible even Chad Johnson who is underrated because of his mostly playful antics).
And sorry, Robert Ewing, if I came across as negative. I actually think I defend the candidates and voters more than most, but in this case, I think the voters missed the boat somewhat. It was interesting to hear Judge/Kaufman say the same on their podcast.
Biggest snubs
L.O’Neal
C.Bennett,
R.Webb
N.Smith
S.Wisniewski
K.Williams
N.Newton
All would’ve been better than adding two more RBs in Barber and George.
So from Paul’s list a few weeks ago of final year eligibles, the following have now seen their modern era eligibility expire.
2024 (1999 retirement)
Tim McDonald, Merton Hanks, Nate Newton, Kevin Glover, Daryl Johnston, Leslie O’Neal.
For those who didn’t make it to the Top 25 this year it’ll be very difficult to see them progress next year given the strength of the 2025 first-time eligible candidates,
Only Peppers and Gates this time. Next year we could have as many as 4-5 first year candidates among the semi finalists. That’ doesn’t leave much room even if one or two drop out from this years list.
Not a single QB? Good for Tiki Barber. Can’t deny his stats.
Freeney and Mathis should cancel each other out if they don’t recognize Mark Duper and Mark Clayton and Jake Scott and Dick Anderson. That’s my wish anyway. :)
I agree with Bo Knows snubs.
Why is a RT with a 4 year run of excellence so highly regarded?
The final 5 should be: Julius Peppers, Antonio Gates, Jared Allen, Andre. Johnson and Eric Allen. I have no issue with these players.
Players I have an issue with in the HOF are : Dwight Freeney, Willie Anderson, Eddie George, Fred Taylor, Torry Holt, London Fletcher and Ricky Watters.
Not high on but understand: Anquan Boldin and Vince Wilfork
Patrick Willis needs to wait at least as long as Zach Thomas.
I don’t think there’s a need to rush to elect Freeney (but unlike the other names you list there) seems fair and reasonable for voters to consider and very likely eventually elect a player with 3(1)/7 profile, season sack leader, 125 career sacks, SB, all decade team member
You have to wonder if this year could be Hester’s best chance because a lot of players are coming up.
Peppers and Gates should be first ballot but they could at least wait on Gates but we will see. A good chance to put in Wilfork as well. Once Wilfork and Hester get voted in, it could slam the door shut on other nose tackles/returners but I hope not. Wilfork still has to become a finalist first.
An unsurprising list, maybe a little disappointing. I really thought there’d be a few new names and/or guys like O’Neal and Bennett who’d been semifinalists a few times and are at or near the end of the line – Weren’t there more than 25 last year? I guess Barber, is a nice surprise. I think he’s worthy. Disappointed that McDonald never got into the room. Same with O’Neal. The inability of Williams and Wisneiwski to gain any traction still baffles me.
Peppers and Gates are likely to get in but I wouldnt be shocked if it’s a year without any first-ballot guys. I feel like it’s Jared Allen’s turn and maybe they’ll break the WR logjam. Personally, I don’t find any of the 25 totally unacceptable for the HOF (I’m more of a “big hall” guy I suppose) but I suppose I have the most trouble with Fred Taylor and Eddie George…not real high on Rodney Harrison either.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Freeney gets in this year. I always expected his sacks would get him in. I always thought he was a bit one-dimensional though and that Mathis was just as good if not better.
Tony P:
I’m very surprised to hear you are so down on Holt. As I noted above, I think he is the best receiver not in Canton (not counting those not yet eligible) and by a fairly wide margin. The only real argument I’ve hear against Holt is that his counting stats while good are not distinctive. While true, this down plays the fact that his career is relatively short. At his peak, Holt was in a very special class. For example, the following is a list of WRs with six 1,300 yard seasons:
Rice (who had seven)
Holt
Moss
Julio Jones
For comparison’s sake, Harrison had 5, Owens had 4, Fitzgerald had 4, Andre Johnson had 4, and Wayne had 4.
Even more impressive was the analysis that Mike Sando (a HOF voter) did trying to era adjust receiver stats. In short, he compared every receiver’s top 8 seasons against the legal leader in receiving yards. If the receiver was the legal leader then he was assigned 1.000. If his yardage was 95% of the league leader, then the receiver received .950. Etc. Sando then averaged the Top 8 years. Here are the results:
Rice .999
Hudson .999
Moss .992
Holt .990
Largent .989
When your top 8 seasons are better than every receiver except Rice, Hudson, and Moss, you are a clear, slam dunk HOFer.
One more stat for Holt: The only players who lead the league in receiving yards more than Holt are Rice, Hutson, Alworth, and Berry (another awesome list to be on). Incidentally, Moss and Owens never led the league in receiving yards or catches.
And remember that while Holt had a few years with Warner, the majority of his career was played with Bulger or worse QBs.
Given all of those stats, plus Holt being 2(1) / 7 / 2000s makes him more than qualified for the HOF. In fact, his resume is significantly more impressive than his HOF teammate, Isaac Bruce who was 1(0) / 4 / None.
With 3 WRs as semi-finalists (was case in 2023 and likely will be same for 2024) there is no way Hester breaks through past that. His best future path starts with voters electing those WRs-sooner the better.
yep there were more than 25 in 2023,,due to ties…can happened, but not predicted or expected
its not a terrible semi-finalist list but yea McDonald, O’Neil and Webb should have been on it (at least of those three, Webb still has time on modern ballot…but needs to start moving along in process or risk the last year hail mary efforts that does not work-see Albert Lewis)
Last election year as modern candidate
2024 (1999) Tim McDonald, Merton Hanks, Nate Newton, Kevin Glover, Daryl Johnston, Leslie O’Neal
2025 (2000) Andre Rison, Ken Norton Jr., Clyde Simmons, Eddie Murray, Irving Fryar, Bryce Paup, Mark Schlereth (G/C), Ben Coates, Neil Smith, Cornelius Bennett
2026 (2001) Steve Wisniewski, Carnell Lake, Mark Stepnoski, Randall Cunningham, Erik Williams, Eric Allen, Ricky Watters
2027 (2002) Lomas Brown, Herman Moore, Eric Metcalf, Levon Kirkland, Richmond Webb, Hardy Nickerson
2028 (2003) Jessie Armstead, Wesley Walls, Brian Mitchell, Michael Bates, Dana Stubblefield, Larry Centers, Darren Woodson
upcoming first year eligible (*strong case for 1st ballot election):
2025: LB Luke Kuechly (CAR)*, RB Marshawn Lynch (SEA), QB Eli Manning (NYG), OG Marshal Yanda (BAL), S Earl Thomas (SEA), K Adam Vinatieri (NE), LB Terrell Suggs (BAL), OC Travis Frederick (DAL), KR/PR/RB Darren Sproles (PHI)
2026: QB Drew Brees (NO)*, WR Larry Fitzgerald (ARZ)*, QB Philip Rivers (SD), TE Jason Witten (DAL), RB Frank Gore (SF), LeSean Mccoy (PHIL), OC Maurkice Pouncy (PITT), TE Greg Olson (CAL), WR Julian Edelman(NE)
2027: QB BenR (PITT)*, RB Adrian Peterson (MINN)*, TE Rod Gronkowski (NE/TB)*, CB Richard Sherman (SEA), OL Andrew Whitworth (CIN/LAR), S Eric Weddle (SD/LAR), C Alex Mack (CLE)
2028: QB Tom Brady (NE/TB)*, DE J.J Watt (HOU/ARZ)*, QB Matt Ryan (ATL)
Paul: Thank you for these updates. I’d raise Terrell Suggs and Richard Sherman to possible first ballot territory. Both are no doubt HOFers to me, and at least for Suggs, he has a pretty light class around him. In any other year, Sherman would have at least a 50/50 shot at first ballot, but that is some tough competition in 2027. Earl Thomas also has a compelling case, but I assume his off-field issues and early retirement will make him wait a few years. I know this is a lot of Seahawks, but you might consider adding Kam Chancellor to your list. He has at least as a good a chance of making the HOF as Darren Sproles and Alex Mack. His neck injury and lack of “all-decade” selection will probably make his induction a long shot. That said, he was a wonderful player in his prime (outrageous highlight reel). The heart and soul of one of the great modern defenses.
As an aside, John Turney just released his hypothetical 25 HOF semi-finalists list. It is fantastic and solves nearly all of my “nitpicking” of the real list. He adds Cornelius Bennett, Lomas Brown, Tim McDonald, Leslie O’Neal, Neil Smith, Richmond Webb, Kevin Williams, and Steve Wisniewski (and replaces Barber, Boldin, George, R. Harrison, J. Harrison, Mathis, S. Smith, and Wilfork). I would like Steve Smith (and probably Wilfork) to still make the top 25, but overall, it is such a strong list, and makes me lament what could have been…
Justin – John Turney’s list would be almost a dream semi-finalist list…makes me frustrated that it wasn’t the end result. I agree with who he’s taking off with the exception of Steve Smith. Would definitely bump Hines Ward instead!
BSLO: Glad you have reevaluated Steve Smith. Really great player that is far more than his stats, which are good too. Bummer that Peppers (and not him) will be the first long time Panther in the HOF (with all due respects to Sam Mills, who I adore but think of as a Saint). Hopefully, the long jam gets cleaned up soon. At least Julio playing this year creates a little more space.
Just noticed that in the next few years, Fitzgerald is the only WR reasonably being added to the queue/logjam (thanks again Paul for the very helpful list). But, there are three great TEs: Witten, Olsen, and Gronk. Gronk is a likely first ballot guy. Witten is no worse than a few years wait kind of guy. Olsen is tough. I’ll need to research more where he falls for me. I’m open, but I currently see him as a HOVG guy—but he is a great announcer (which seems to help).
Suggs won’t be first ballot – as to Sherman there has never been four 1st ballot in one election
Paul, I respect your opinion, but Suggs has a very strong resume: rookie of the year, multiple time all pro, defensive player of the year, 7x pro bowler (over 14 years showing sustained excellence), the career leader in tackles for loss, multiple time Super Bowl winner, 8th in official sacks, 11th in unofficial sacks, 4th in postseason sacks, 6th in postseason tackles for loss.
I know it makes no sense to compare to the weakest first ballot guy, but I’d take Suggs over Jason Taylor based on intangibles (and their stats are very similar).
Again, very strong resume.
Been Busy with other things ill just share a few thoughts
1. i Fully accept you apolgy justin and can understand where you were coming from on the semifinialist list i was a little underwhelmed my self looking back
2. something tells me that the a few of those wr’s will cancel each other out and not make the final 15 im thinking ward and maybe boldin and smith dont make the final 15
3. I would have rather seen two of the following four instead of george and Barber Wisnewski Webb Kevin Williams Leslie O Neal
4. Im pretty sure the running backs will cancel each other out meaning no running backs will be elected
5. Im Pretty sure on 2 of the spots for the class of 2024 its the other 3 im not too sure about
Thats all for now
As to Suggs – DeMarcus Ware wasn’t 1st ballot as voters are finally becoming more aware of need to be more selective plus already electing a lot of pass rushers – he will wait
Peppers Gates Allen all will be elected – then a WR (most likely AJohnson) give us 4 – so last slot is wildcard could be Holt or Willis or Woodson
Of the eligibles that Paul mentioned from 2025-2028, I only see Brees, Peterson, Gronk, Brady and maybe Watt going first ballot. Will get very interesting … borderline with Fitz and Big Ben.
How is Fitzgerald borderline might I ask brian
Watt will easily be first ballot and betting same for Fitz, still think BenR will be as 2 SB
Larry Fitzgerald was a great player Robert but we are talking about the Cardinals here. They arent known to have many first ballot HOF players during their history. Anquan Boldin was a star before Fitz but could still cancel him out. Fitz had alot of great years but many middling as well, though bad QBs contributed. He had great hands but wasnt the fastest but his longevity should put him in quickly if not first ballot, we will see. More a possession receiver than lightning strike and with Boldin waiting, voters may also wait till at least his second year and with everyone wanting the receivers queue to clear–though most didnt stand out to me, the same argument as the running backs–it could temporarily hold him back.
Big Ben taking the Steelers to three SBs will get him elected but I am not sure about 1st ballot. He had great stats and good mobility, yet some people thought he was overrated and should have done more with the collective talent on that team. Similar to Rivers in SD, who might wait awhile before election. Rothlisberger and the Steelers only went to one AFC Champ game from 2011 till his retirement and played some awful playoff games, especially on defense, wasting his last years. We will see if hurts his chances for 1st ballot election. At least he didnt regress like Eli Manning did …
now that i can agree with about fitzgerald and the wr queue 100% who knows if longjam will be cleared somewhat by the time hes eligible
Fitz is in the NFL Top 100 and ranked 2nd in both career receptions and receiving yards to Jerry Rice.
Watt is a 3-time DPOY ranked 3rd among DEs in the PFR HOF monitor.
They are both slam dunk 1st ballot choices.
I would also add Ndamukong Suh to the first time eligibles in 2028.
I had a whole rebuttal against Torry Holt written up but the website is rejecting my posts again. The only thing I will say is Holt became the slant man in the latter half of his career in a high profile offense. The best player in that offense was Steven Jackson.
Slants don’t get respect as average per catch goes down unless you are a Jerry Rice. :) Can you say Andre Reed? Look at his career totals compared to Holt . It took him 14 years to make HOF. Holt will wait about the same. I don’t support him. Not every very good WR with big stats deserves HOF IMO. Accolades will get him in. Just because you are one of the best at the time doesn’t equal HOFer either in my book ie Dwight Freeney..
On a side note, I spoke to someone who was in the Raiders organization when Howey Long was there. He said he was on roids. Any thoughts? I was a little surprised because of his clean reputation. The 1980’s was full of players on steroids though.
Fitz is eligible in 2026, WR will be broken open in 2024-2025 with two if not three WRs elected–even if just one a year, thats two WRs off the ballot…and Fitz will easily jump others still on that ballot to immediate 1st ballot election in 2026.
Something tells me that tony p. Is a hard grader on nominees for some bizarre reason
And on Holt tony p. I’ll disagree to a extent
Yes, my tendency is to be a hard grader but it’s a losing battle. Haha I remember bachslunch leaned that way too.
I understand some folks are hard graders and support small Hall view…just that the process and outcomes (especially in last few decades) don’t follow that approach-and there are both good and bad aspects to both views (big vs small Hall)
That’s why I don’t support Ken Anderson though I understand his appeal. I was rooting for him at the end of his career too. I just don’t think he was a HOF quarterback. I understand his skill set was high but I like my QB to be a winner throughout his career.
Kurt Warner did enough I suppose but “barely”. He fell off too like Anderson in the middle of his career. I don’t think that’s the sign of a HOF QB. Some players like Warner just capture the imagination of the fans and media. A great story.
Though the Chiefs are having injury problems right now, a victory over Buffalo could end their playoff hopes though a lot of football is left to play.
Could this season be lining up for the Dolphins? Of course they still havent beaten top teams but Hill will get over 2000 yards before week 17/18, I believe and they could have two 1000 yard backs if Achane can catch fire at the end of the season.
I hope Mostert can stay healthy and lead them far into the playoffs. He is having a career year and it would be fitting if he could face his old 49er teammates in the SB but thats looking ahead. I feel while the headlines are on Hill, he will have over 20 TDs this season. If Hill has his 2000 yards while becoming All-Pro again, he is a cinch for the HOF …
A Dolphins vs 49ers SB would be fun with probably the same result as 1985 SB. Could be versus Dallas too. We will get a preview soon. How does Tyreek Hill look now? lol I was bragging on him several years ago being a HOFer. He makes the grade for me! Haha I think he’s 1st ballot now. I have a thing I guess for little guys who excel at WR. It takes a lot of guts to play a big man’s game. They don’t seem to get the credit by the HoF. They go for the bigger players. I was glad Cliff Branch finally got his due. I hope 5’9″ Mark Clayton and 5’9″ get serious consideration soon.
Hill has a chance to duplicate what Paul Warfield did … help a Dolphins QB and team win a championship after helping another team win a championship. Lets hope he is a man on a mission because I didnt agree with him leaving Mahomes but maybe he felt he could win elsewhere as the main focus rather than share the spotlight with Kelce, who could end up marrying the billionaire Swift, though I suspect she will dump him after she has had her fun, while nudging the NFL into promoting her Decades Tour and film run. Smart marketing on every decision she is making. Hopefully, Travis will find a way to keep her and not be a future subject-object for her songwriting.
Haha … sorry, Swifts’ Eras tour … though she is still a young performer …
curious what this group thinks about PFHOF for these RBs..how would you rank them.
Ricky Watters
Tiki Barber
Eddie George
Fred Taylor
I liked John Turney’s TOFTWO article about the runners but he underestimated George IMO. Yes, George had a lower average per carry for his career but before his turf-toe problems became an issue, he had quickness and a good burst. Like Earl Campbell, he was carrying the ball too much but of the four double-digit winning seasons that the Titans had under Jeff Fisher, he was part of two of them and an AFC Championship. Once he left the team, the winning stopped until Chris Johnson and Vince Young joined the team.
For me, Barber is slightly ahead of Watters and Taylor. Taylor was more talented but seemed to play when he wanted and was in and out of the line-up with injuries. Barber, like George was more dependable and had better scrimmage totals. Watters went downhill after leaving the Niners but played better at the end of his career.
Though George may be last on this totem pole, it wasnt his fault. The Titans didnt surround him with other complementary players and defenses were determined to stop him, knowing he was coming. He wasnt the receiver that Watters and Barber were, but blocked better than all of them.
The other three backs had better supporting casts with Watters winning a SB and Barber retiring before Manning stepped up further.
I still hope Roger Craig gets voted in before all of them but my vote goes to Barber over Watters but I like both better than Taylor.
Would seem that Taylor (5x semi-finalist) and Watters (4x) have the recent momentum from interest by voters to take next step to finalist list-and thinking there is a space there for a RB…be interesting to see if first time semi-finalist Barber has more support from voters to leapfrog both other RBs
I think Watters could take votes from Taylor and Barber. If not Craig, Peterson might be the next runner voted in. George, Dillon and Lewis are too similar. Alexander and Holmes are penalized for not crossing 10,000 yards.
RIP Frank Wycheck …
Steve McNair had a great career in Houston and Nashville and trusted Wycheck exclusively. Frank was tough and a fan favorite. Every defense knew it was George carrying the ball and Wycheck catching it. The offense always had trouble depending on wide receivers till Derrick Mason came along. Wycheck took alot of hits and it stayed with him after retirement.
I listen to Titans broadcasts in Nashville and Wycheck called games before being replaced.
Its sad to see the affects of CTE cut a man down while he is young. He will be missed.
Has it been medically confirmed that Wycheck had CTE? If not lets be careful with the rush medical judgement there.
One does not need pre-existing condition to die from hitting head due to falling down the stairs
For me, Craig and Watters are the only 2 currently eligible running backs that belong in the Hall of Fame that aren’t already in. I wouldn’t call either guy a snub, but they they both have the most complete mix of accomplishments, stats and Super Bowl rings among the eligible players not yet in.
For the 4 players above, I’d put Watters ahead of the other three. I’d say the biggest knocks on him are a lack of All-Pros, and perhaps his counting stats, though the time of his retirement he pretty high on the rushing list (13th) and the yards from scrimmage list (8th). I think that Watters gets overlooked for a few reasons:
1) The only relevant piece of film that gets widely shared on him is the one where he slows down to avoid contact on a pass over the middle.
2) He hasn’t been involved in football since he retired, so he’s been easy to forget over the years.
3) His playoff performances after he left the 49ers weren’t great, but he played with terrible QBs and outside of Irving Fryar and Joey Galloway, pretty brutal skill position players in every one of his post-49ers years. Defenses keyed in on him pretty good because he was easily the best offensive player on the Eagles and Seahawks.
4) His career was more consistent than truly elite, though he played the majority of his prime years in the same conference as two of the greatest backs of all-time (Smith and Sanders), so he was easy to overlook.
That said, his consistency was pretty great. Outside of his final season when he was injured in game 5, he had over 1,200 yards from scrimmage every year and over 1,400 in all but one. He had at least 7 total touchdowns every year of his career. He averaged 103.2 yards per scrimmage a game, which ranks him ahead of all but 9 Hall of Fame running backs.
He also immediately helped turn around two mediocre teams and got both the Eagles and Seahawks into the playoffs shortly after he arrived. While there were a lot of players that left the 49ers shortly after they won the Super Bowl, the team’s offense definitely missed him for the next couple of years until Garrison Hearst arrived.
For the other 3, I would go with Barber, then George, then Taylor. Barber had easily the best peak of the 4, but it was too short in my opinion. George got off to outstanding start in his career, but got way overused and wore down fast. Taylor if he could have avoided a couple of his many injuries would already be in the Hall of Fame, but the hall is not about what if’s or talent, it’s about what you actually accomplished. I can’t get on board with a 1-time Pro Bowler making the Hall of Fame.
Tony p- I’ll disagree with you on anderson to a extent while I agree with you that you prefer qbs to have a winning career I prefer the stats a lot more stats tell a much better story
will post closer to date as reminder (before I am in Cabo for vacation that first week of Jan) that NFL Network will have evening show revealing the 15+ ties modern finalists the first week of January-at least that was timing for 2023 class election cycle
and voters ballots of their 15 finalists are due into Hall next week
Paul I’ll post the finalists you enjoy your vacation
thanks Robert! May be able to jump in and contribute, perhaps respond to your post, if possible..but not sure if I will have reliable internet access
Not a problem at all Paul Keep me Posted
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!
And the same to you
Good news everybody I have an early Christmas present for all of you
I found out when they’ll be announcing the finalists they’ll be announcing the finalists on NFL Network on December 27th at 8 pm and like all of you I’ll be watching like I always do
I found out about it by looking at the schedule for NFL Network
I wonder why they moved it to January this the second time this decade they’ve done it December the first time was in 2021 for the Class of 2022
Can’t wait
Thanks for the Wonderful news Andy
Merry Christmas to all!
Things heating up to end the 2023 season, as we await the finalists for the Class Of 2024
The Dolphins finally beat a winning team but may have to beat the Bills in the season finale to win the division.
The Ravens could get homefield advantage in the AFC but still have the Niners and Dolphins the next couple of weeks. Could the Colts or Texans take the South from reeling Jax?
The Eagles may hold off Dallas, since the Pokes have trouble on the road. Congrats to the Lions meeting expectations and winning the North, while the Bucs should win the South if they beat the Saints.
The 49ers are the team to beat but could lose to the Ravens tonight. SB preview?
Hottest teams …
49ers, Ravens, Bills, Bears, Browns, Rams, Bucs
With the Patriots beating the Broncos, NE may not have a chance at Caleb Williams in the draft, though there is no guarantee he will be successful in the NFL. Belichick might stay but still needs a top prospect at QB. Williams will go to either Chicago or Arizona?
Good catch – could be earlier (late December) because election meeting (in person) is earlier in January
Paul the announcement is tomorrow did you see my post
Hypothetically speaking. If Joe Flacco leads the Browns to the Super Bowl and wins it,is he a HOFer? I think so. I know he would get compared to Jim Plunkett,who isn’t in with 2 SB wins. But Jim had a very inconsistent career. Flacco was never really a top 5 or so QB but he does have more career passing yards than Joe Montana and Dan Fouts. I understand it is a very different Era today. But still impressive. Of course it’s a very long shot he guides them to the promise land. But browns have a strong defense and Joe has a great connection with Cooper. You never know?!
my last minute predictions for final 15
1 Eric Allen
2 Jared Allen
3 Willie Anderson
4 Jahri Evans
5 Dwight Freeney
6 Antonio Gates
7 Devin Hester
8 Torry Holt
9 Andre Johnson
10 Robert Mathis
11 Julius Peppers
12 Ricky Watters
13 Reggie Wayne
14 Patrick Willis
15 Darren Woodson
So announcements werent last night? Did I miss something?
Very intriguing question Brad …
If Flacco and the Browns were to win it all, he definitely has a Kurt Warner type argument, especially with the Browns being so woeful since being refranchised. Personally, I believe their history should have seperate entities, similar to the Oilers/Titans because this era has nothing to do with eras prior to 1999 …
The Broncos are benching Russell Wilson with a chance to still have a winning season. I think they want to protect themselves with his 37 million injury clause due in March while restructuring his contract to keep him. Wilson has every right to be pissed considering he could still help the team win 8-9 games after last years terrible season but Payton wants to prove than no one is above the team while seeing what Stidham can do.
Would the Broncos move on from Wilson? Like Kurt Warner again, Wilson would have to prove he could win on a possible third team–Giants?–to keep his HOF resume going …
Sorry guys … thought yesterday was the 27th.
Reminder guys the announcement is at 8 pm on NFL Network like all of you I’ll be watching can’t wait for the announcement
Announced – Filled the “last” four slots (after nine 2023 finalists plus Gates and Peppers) Eric Allen, Jahri Evans, Rodney Harrison, Fred Taylor.
Looks like I predicted 14/15 – missed out on Rodney Harrison (had Wilfork)
I got 13/15 missed on harrison and taylor
Really pumped for Eric Allen! Happy to also see Evans make the cut. I thought he was the most deserving nominee that missed the finalist cut last year. It boggles my mind that Harrison and Taylor have this much support from HOF voters.
This unfortunately probably spells doom for Ricky Watters getting in through the modern era vote. I am happy though that at least one of many deserving leftovers from the list of 2000 and 2001 retirees is getting a late push for induction.
Eric Allen has three years to get elected.
The 5 I want (we need to clear the WR so start with the oldest 2 in the backlog)
Eric Allen
Antonio Gates
Torry Holt
Julius Peppers
Reggie Wayne
The 5 I expect
Jared Allen
Willie Anderson
Antonio Gates
Andre Johnson
Julius Peppers
Have been pushing for Eric Allen
Have been baffled by his lack of support since I first started following the hall process.
yt: in full agreement with you ive been pushing for eric allen for the longest time also glad he is getting the momentum that he deserves
My thoughts
I got 12 out of 15
How does Steve Smith Sr not make it
Here’s the problem I have with Fred Taylor he only made one Pro Bowl as an injury replacement and he never led the league in any category
I was right when I said in the comments about the Class of 2023 that we may see only two first ballot guys among the finalists Julius Peppers and Antonio Gates
As I said the in the comments about the Class of 2023 I think we may see a Wide Receiver elected in the next four Hall of Fame classes
Out of the three Wide Receivers I think they’ll go with Torry Holt because he’s been waiting the longest of all the Wide Receivers
I think voters may want to put in Drew Brees before Jahri Evans
I like the list but I am like the rest of you. I don’t understand the love for Fred Taylor and Rodney Harrison. Don’t get me wrong they were better than 90% of players at their positions, but HOF is top 1% (at least I thought it was). Eric Allen I think gets elected. As mentioned above his eligibility is running out soon. Might get that Sam Mills type of push.
If Fred Taylor is a finalist then what is the argument against Shaun Alexander,Priest Holmes,Corey Dillon,Steven Jackson,Chris Johnson, Tiki Barber,Warrick Dunn,Jamal Lewis, and some others? Longevity? He (Fred) was injury prone and could have had a more successful career? But it’s not the Hall of what ifs.
Will Rodney Harrison take votes away from Darren Woodson?
Could Hester get voted in this year?
Which receiver or receivers, could go in with Gates?
Still sticking with my prediction
J Allen
Gates
Peppers
Johnson
Woodson
Sticking with my prediction made last February- Peppers Gates JAllen AJohnson Willis (wildcard is Holt instead of Willis)
Voters will now meet in-person in Atlanta in mid January to conduct election, with results announced on NFL Honors show Thurs Feb 8th 9-11p EST on CBS.
Once we have a finalist topic posted I can again announce our annual prediction contest for those interested
Brad: I’ll agree with you 100% I was baffled like you by Rodney Harrison and Fred Taylor being Hof Finalists over other players, my question is who would you have made Finalists over Harrison and Taylor
Glad to see Eric Allen getting a push. I can see voters keeping him out of the senior pool (then again, I thought they’d do the same with Joe Jacoby and Albert Lewis). Like many of you, I also have some confusion over the apparent enthusiasm for Taylor and Harrison. Taylor was great at times and I admit there were some moments when I watched him play, looked at his stats and thought he was headed for the HOF. When it was all said and done, I figured the constant injuries and lack of honors would sink him. Rodney Harrison does have some points in his favor – sack totals, level of play in big games etc. but I also feel like lack of honors and reputation for dirty play would get in his way. Not sure how I personally feel about either of them. Wouldn’t be offended if they got in, but there are more deserving players, some of whom weren’t even semi-finalists this year.
To respond to Robert’s question, I would’ve voted to advance Barber, Watters, Steve Smith, Hines Ward, Robert Mathis or maybe even London Fletcher ahead of those two. If I’m picking a running back over Taylor, I’d go with Barber…although I can see putting Watters into the mix so he can have his case heard – time’s almost up for him.
of the ones you mentioned Jeff i would have been in favor of Fletcher and Watters For a variety of reasons
I would have taken Watters for sure over Taylor. To replace Harrison, I am honestly unsure. In isolation, it would be Steve Smith, but having 4 WRs as finalists, plus Hester would overkill. The other 6 semifinalists all strike me as really borderline HOFers…I guess I would also pick Fletcher.
I think the long wait for Eric Allen comes down to something simple…number of quality candidates at the DB position. I remember him being an outstanding corner that could shut down elite receivers like Rice and Irvin, but his accomplishments in the end suggest he’s a borderline case. He has 6 Pro Bowls, 1 1st and 2 2nd team All Pro nods and great INT numbers, but he never won a Super Bowl and didn’t make the 1990s all decade team (and wasn’t really much of a snub).
Unfortunately, as great as Allen was, he was overshadowed by elite CBs in his conference (Sanders), his division (Green), and late in his career, his team (Charles Woodson). Despite some amazing INT TD returns, it seems like he hasn’t really lived on in NFL lore the way his other contemporaries did.
I think he was solidly the 5th best corner of his era behind Sanders, Woodson, Green and Aeneas Williams.
Beyond having to wait for those 4 to get in first, he’s also had to contend with being eligible at the same time as Roger Wehrli and Lester Hayes, plus all of the 2000s all decade CBs, plus Darelle Revis. The hall also has put a major emphasis on catching up on their neglect of the safety position, with peers like Lynch, Atwater and Butler spending several years on the ballot. Amazingly, the Hall has elected 25 DBs since Allen first became eligible. With Lewis falling off the ballot this year and no other slam dunk DB coming onto the modern ballot in the next 2 years (no offense to Earl Thomas and Aqib Talib), this is Allen’s best shot.
Fingers crossed for him!
BSLO: here’s my two cents, I would have replaced taylor with Watters, as for Harrison I would have gone with either London Fletcher , Robert Mathis, or Steve Smith
RIP
Frank Ryan Ken Bowman
I brought this point up earlier on other sites; if the 49ers win it all, is George Kittle on his way towards the HOF?
Yes, his career is still early and he has to stay healthy onward, yet he should be All-Pro over Kelce this season, his second election since 2019.
Kelce is of course the better receiver with more accolades but Kittle is the better blocker, who has benefitted with Purdy joining the team.
His numbers are similar to former Steelers TE Heath Miller, their all-time TE, who wasnt the receiver Kittle is, but a slightly better blocker who may later enter the HOVG with two championships. Kittle, if he stays healthy, should reach 10,000 or more career yards, yet needs a championship as well. Can the Yorks ever hoist the trophy? This season might be their best chance.
As for Kelce, who will enter the HOF before his brother, he could still wind up All-Pro, being the best receiver on a Chiefs team with bad wide receiving this year but the Taylor Swift hoopla has affected the team and his numbers this season.
what does taylor swift have to do with what kelce does on the field im curious
I have no idea if Taylor Swift has impacted what happens on the field – I seriously hope a team with three NFC championships, two super bowl rings, a long string of division titles, a HOF coach and a legendary QB would figure out how to deal with a famous pop star in the stadium every week but who really knows. Kelce is still one of the top 3 in the league at his position statwise…but not as many yards and TDs as last year. Is that because of Taylor Swift, or because he’s a 34 year old tight end in the NFL (and the only big receiving weapon in the arsenal right now)? I think the Chiefs o-line just hasn’t played as well as it did last year and they made a mistake by not going after better receivers in the off-season. Not really blaming them, but I think they figured Valdez-Scantling and Toney (and Rice) would really develop this year…but the number of drops I’ve seen by those guys is remarkable.
As for Kittle, I think he’s definitely on a HOF trajectory. Great overall receiver, good blocker…this should be his fifth pro bowl and second first-team all pro in seven years. His stats might be a little depressed in that offense – TDs arent really at Kelse, Gronk, Gates etc levels (or even Jimmy Graham levels).
Good points guys, and yes, I believe the hoopla and publicity surrounding Swift has affected Kelce.
Yes, he is older but he is dropping more passes, getting dinged up more and missing connections with Mahomes more than I have ever seen him do and I have watched his entire career.
Why not? Many celebrity athletes have babe girlfriends and wives but Swift is known to DUMP men for a variety of reasons and Kelce is very aware of what cynical observers like me and others think. Lets hope he keeps her, even if his team fails to go back-to-back.
I remember the hoopla surrounding Tony Romo and Jessica Simpson. That didnt last longer either.
“Yes, he is older but he is dropping more passes, getting dinged up more and missing connections with Mahomes more than I have ever seen him do and I have watched his entire career.”
Sorry, but there’s just not objective evidence to back this up. Kelce has dropped 7 passes this year. He dropped 8 in 2022 and 10 in 2021. He is catching 76.9% of his targets this year, which is the 2nd highest catch rate in a season during his career (77.0% in 2014). He’s had 1 fumble this year, which is the same amount of fumbles he’s had in the regular season in each of the past 5 years.
He is more banged up, and his production has slowed in recent weeks, but having more nagging injuries and slowing down toward the end of the season are exactly what happens to players as they enter the decline phase of their career. I’m guessing the Chiefs will rest Kelce this week since they’re locked into the #3 seed, so he’ll finish the year with 93 catches and 984 yards in 15 games. This would finish him with the 2nd best age-34 season for a tight end in NFL history (Pete Retzlaff had an awesome age 34 season in 1965).
The Chiefs WRs have gotten most of the attention, but to me, the biggest issue facing the Chiefs is their pass protection on the edges. Donovan Smith and Jawaan Taylor have been a massive downgrade from Orlando Brown and Andrew Wylie. Wanya Morris has played slightly better than Smith the past couple of weeks, but not enough to make a material difference. I don’t blame the Chiefs for not wanting to overpay Brown or Wylie, but they heavily swung and missed on their replacements. As bad as Toney, Moore and MVS have been this year with drops, the Chiefs have been trying to jam them into roles they aren’t suited for. They are all high on raw talent, but low on raw ability. All speed, no hands.
Since Mahomes has been under pressure on the edges all year, his timing has been off with his receivers, and he’s been rushing throws / scrambling way more than in recent seasons. One of the best things Kelce does is find a way to get open after Mahomes has bought himself time and he’s run his initial route. With Mahomes having less time to throw, Kelce’s strength has been more neutralized this year, and the Chiefs haven’t had the pass protection to allow them to take shots down field. This has led to defenses playing closer to line and minimizing Kelce’s opportunities on underneath routes.
I have been a diehard Chiefs fan since the mid-1990s, and I completely understand the urge to give into the narrative that Taylor Swift has been a distraction, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that the entire Chiefs passing offense has struggled this year, they are committing an insane amount of penalties compared to usual, this is their first year since Mahomes arrived without Eric Bieniemy as the OC, and that Kelce is the oldest starting tight end in the league. There are many, many reasons other than Taylor Swift that Travis Kelce is having a “down” season.
Gah, here I am giving into my own media narrative…the Chiefs have only committed 6 more penalties than they did last season, and are among the lower penalized teams in the league. Scratch that one from my argument :)
Great argument BSLO …
If Rivera gets fired in Washington, do the Chiefs bring back Bieneimy, or does he go somewhere else? Will Hardman, Toney or MVS be back if they lose in the divisional round? Is this the last year for McKinnon ?
Last Game/Reg season questions …
Jackson in Baltimore is throwing the ball better than I have seen, shouldnt he keep the old Mo’ going and try to eliminate the Steelers? If he sits, it will be nearly three weeks before he plays the divisional. Didnt work out well from 2019.
Why sit Flacco as well? He has been there what, seven weeks? Why not keep his offensive momentum going?
If Dallas were to jump out early on Washington, will Hurts sit for the Eagles? This team needs to find momentum quickly.
Cant believe the Vikings are going back to Mullens. Good story but the Josh Dobbs story is better. Let the man play …
Can big games from either Allen for Buff or Hill for Miami help their MVP chances? I would vote for McCaffrey …
I understand Robert … we will see if the Chiefs rest people at the right time before trying to move through the postseason. Can they gain momentum?
Let’s say it comes down to allen and Woodson for the final cut from 10-5 who are you taking and why
Thanks Robert, both are deserving, I think Woodson should already be in but still has time.
I would go with Allen who also, should have been voted in already and is facing the swamp.
Watching the Eagles back then, their defense could be sloppy but intimidating and Allen was on an island and still excelled. He could make huge plays and score better than some of their offensive players. I felt he was just as good as Green or Williams and could work up the Philly, Raiders crowds. Free agency hurt him because it was harder for fans to track what he meant for different teams, similar to Hardy Nickerson as a linebacker.
Season Ending Comments
–With the playoffs starting, you want your team to be hot and the Bills, Rams, Packers and Steelers could find away to upset some teams.
–Dolphins might have peaked, where their finesse game has another tough challenge in KC. Hill had a bad game tonight.
–Where will Belichick wind up? Could Kraft keep him and go for Maye in the draft or he get canned and hired next year by the Giants, Chargers, Redskins or Falcons?
–Can the Eagles wake up and put it together in TB?
The Texans can get revenge over the Browns in Houston
agreed 100% Brian once you get into the swamp who knows how long its takes to get out of the swamp if you do at all
PFHOF class of 2024 election meeting is next week (confirmed with voter)…announcement still set for NFL Honors Show on Thurs Feb 8th, 9-11p EST on CBS
Eric Allen still has two more years as modern candidate-I do not think voters will rush to elect him now first year on ballot-in fact I would be surprised if he makes round of final 10 this year
Why wouldn’t they rush to induct him paul
Because there are others on the ballot longer in the queue and also with stronger resumes…elections can’t simply be a process solely focused on electing players who just appeared on ballot for the first time-then you just delay longer the elections of others. His case and situation is like Sam Mills who first appeared on ballot with 3 yrs left-and was elected in last year…thats likely path for Allen.
We have Peppers and Gates, plus the returning logjam of 3 WRs and other strong candidates from 2023 finalist again on ballot-that’s where voters will focus their attention. Pretty sure we are looking at Peppers, Gates, JAllen and at least 1 WR-perhaps 2…with Willis or maybe Woodson as wildcards..really don’t see any other strong contenders for 2024 election among moderns.
I’m in agreement 100% paul after you explained everything very clear, all I know is that two of the inductees will be peppers and gates after that I’m not really sure I’m torn between these 6 Jared Allen Wayne Woodson Anderson Holt Willis
We cant discount wild cards like Willis, Woodson, Hester, Anderson and Freeney. Rick Gosselin on TOFTWO predicted a clean-up voting year and Hester could be part of that …
Pro Bowl snubs
Josh Allen — though he is an MVP candidate that has accounted for the most TDs this year.
Amon-Ra St Brown — a great year in helping Detroit win 12 games
L’Jarius Sneed — one of the best cover corners in football.
Gene Stone — 7 interceptions on perhaps the best defense in football.
Brandon Aiyuk — great chemistry with Purdy but teammates that are already voted in.
By cleanup year I think he was referring to JAllen (4th yr), Holt (5th), AJohnson (3rd) and perhaps Willis (3rd) and also referring to WR logjam cleanup – certain one WR will be elected (edge to AJohnson I suspect) perhaps two. Hester likely moves back into final 10 but he still needs WRs to clear out first.
Going based on stats alone Allen destroys Woodson with over double the amount of interceptions.
Going based on players of the week and month once again Allen destroys Woodson.
Allen 5 pow/2 Pom
Woodson 1/0
Allen has a slight lead in pro bowls 6-5
And the only area where Woodson wins is ap all pro 1st teams. However Woodson played on the team with the most exposure (which likely gained him votes) and Allen played on a team with mediocre coverage. So Allen is the 1993 upi nfc Defensive player of the year and still doesn’t make the ap’s 1st team. If this was a 6/2 versus a 5/3 debate, allen would do much better.
In short Allen has better stats, more pro bowls and was the only one who was ever considered the best defensive player in his conference for a year l, and best defensive player for a month.
Plus less time left
Paul which voter was it and he did he say what date the committee will be meeting next week and where in Atlanta the meeting will take place
I’m glad the meeting is taking place in Atlanta because that’s where I live
I was asked to kept that information confidential
And I don’t know location as Hall keeps that’s private as it’s not a public event
Heres my five after some thought and debate
Jared Allen
Antonio Gates
Julius Peppers
Reggie Wayne
Darren Woodson
Good lists.
My prediction is: Jared Allen (90% probability), Peppers (90%), Johnson (75%), Willis (60%), and Holt (50%) (also Gradishar, Powell, and Parker would have 99% probability with McMichaelat 80%).
Other Final 10: Gates, Eric Allen, Wayne, Woodson, and Freeney
Tough to not have a lineman advance to final 10. Either could. Just feel like Freeney will start his ascent, but maybe that starts next year.
First let’s start with how the cutdown might go
Cut from 15 to 10 Eric Allen Willie Anderson Rodney Harrison Fred Taylor Darren Woodson
Cut from 10 to 5 Jahri Evans Evans Dwight Freeney Devin Hester Andre Johnson Reggie Wayne
Since all the others have done it here my predictions for the Class of 2024
Buddy Parker
Randy Gradishar
Steve McMichael
Art Powell
Jared Allen
Antonio Gates
Torry Holt
Julius Peppers
Patrick Willis
Andy P if i see your predictions correctly Eric Allen and Darren Woodson cancel each other out in the cutdown from `15 to 10 and Wayne and Johnson Cancel each other out in the 10 to 5 cutdown am i correct , is it also possible that anderson and evans cancel each other out overall
Yes Robert that’s right
I think it’s possible we’ll just have to see
Good news everybody I found out when the selection committee will be meeting in Atlanta to select the Class of 2024 they’ll be meeting next week on the 16th-17th
I found out about in this USA Today article
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2023/12/27/pro-football-hall-fame-finalists-2024/72039977007/
Is this a first for the Hall of Fame meeting over two days instead of the usual one day I’m glad they’re going back to in person meetings for the first time since 2020
gotcha andy p thanks for the clarification on the cutdown and when the meeting will take place im surprised it will be over two days also
perhaps to accommodate travel schedule of those voters who are writers also working on playoff stories-those who will arrive later on day one and those needing to leave earlier on day two???
For the future I know Porter is pondering a two day meeting in mid January, have seniors and coaches-committee meet on day one to select their finalists (meetings currently held in August) and than 2nd day for full selection meeting of all 50 voters to elect class of moderns, seniors and coach-contributor-but that’s not in place for 2024 election.
Also checking with our hosts to see if there is interest in new fresh post on election.
2023 AP all pro teams released today https://apnews.com/article/nfl-all-pro-mccaffrey-lamb-watt-2a65b754c732f17cb481d2506958ee26
some Hall related observations: 5th overall first team for T Hill (4th as WR) will help his resume, plus Eagles center Jason Kelce who earned his 6th selection-really important for center to have PFHOF resume with multiple all pro selections….
another historical notes…. Aaron Donald’s 8th AP first team moves him into top 5(tied) most all time – only 12 other players in NFL history have 8 or more…..Zack Martin’s 7th first-team AP All-Pro honor, tied with Larry Allen, Bob Lilly and Randy White for the most in franchise history-thats all time great impressive…
OT Trent Williams is another guy who in recent years (towards end of career) has really seen his PFHOF case rise-now with 3x first team Al Pro selections-consecutive, as he played much of his career in 2010s decade which has four other all decade OT (he was not one) in JThomas (elected), TSmith,Peters,Staley-that’s 4 contenders remaining with TWilliams..hard to see voters putting all of those in Hall… OT from 2010s is going to a real logjam in future and be very interesting to see how voters sort it out with TSmith (2-first team/3-second team*including 2023), Peters (3/4), Staley (0/3) and TWilliams (3/1) in the mix….guessing Staley is at least one guy left out…
Great notes, Paul …
LaPorta made 2nd team over Kelce, Parsons made 2nd team as well …
Chris Jones elected again 1st team and no Mostert on either team. Wagner made 2nd team. Bland and Sewell made their 1st teams …
Purdy got shafted I believe but Jackson and Prescott are solid picks.
Huge win for Houston … thought for sure Flacco was going to Baltimore.
Miami lost like I thought but it would have helped to run the ball more. 14 carries for Mostert and Achane is inexcusable. Still, Tua is the franchise and deserves to be paid. They will be the AFC favorite next season …
Went 1-1 but will predict the Cowboys and Lions tomorrow …
Getting back to 1st Team All-Pro picks, some major players helped their future HOF chances but have to maintain their health as much as level of play.
HOF Locks
Tyreek Hill
Trent Williams
Jason Kelce
Zack Martin — 1st ballot?
TJ Watt
Aaron Donald — 1st ballot
Fred Warner
Bobby Wagner — 1st ballot?
Tyron Smith
On their way if healthy
Lamar Jackson
George Kittle
Christian McCaffrey
Myles Garrett
Chris Jones
Micah Parsons
Mike Evans
Lane Johnson
What you think Paul, McCarthy in Dallas lose his job? What a shocking loss considering the Cowboys havent lost at home in what, 16-17 games? Congratulations to the Packers, whose defense was so bad at the end of the game, they better hope it doesnt get worse against SF …
Can the Rams upset the Lions in Detroit?
After second half beatdowns in the previous three Super Wild Card Weekend games, this win for Detroit was a tough win against a tough former QB and Rams team …
Nacua was awesome and slightly held at the end of the game.
Guys I have bad news John Turney said on the forum for PFRA that the selection meeting which was supposed to be in Atlanta has been cancelled because of the weather and will be done on Zoom instead on Wednesday
I don’t think is necessarily bad news that voters are not having two day in-person election meeting-unfortunate perhaps as in-person is likely a better format…but at least the Hall staff and voters have experience with virtual election meetings as that has been format since 2021. At least the election is proceeding as intended for this week (Wednesday) yet alas we won’t know results until NFL Honors show on Feb 8th (and surprising with these 3+ week gap between election and announcement of results since 2021 we have had very little in way of leaks).
Looking like in case of candidates for the Class of 2029 we have our firm confirmed player (and possible first ballot) in Eagles center Jason Kelce with his very strong PFHOF resume of 6(2)/7/SB. Others likely to follow in coming weeks and months-Julio Jones, Jason Peters..perhaps Patrick Peterson and Von Miller??
And yes MikeMC and entire Cowboys coaching staff should be fired and replaced by BillB, Vrabel or Tomlin (as seems likely he will part ways with Steelers this week).
Calais Campbell is also a potential candidate for 2029.
I would say Campbell is certainly someone who would be listed on first time candidates for class of 2029 ballot but his actual PFHOF chances seem very slim…..
Its doubtful but just a thought … would Kraft Mayo try to reach out to Brady? He doesnt seem enthused about working tv …
Will Tomlin leave the Steelers? He is probably tired of these young, selfish players …
Since beating the Chiefs in the 2016/17 postseason, a loss that prompted KC to draft Mahomes, the Steelers have lost 5 straight postseason games, giving up over 32 points a game or more …
$20m just to talk football a few hours a week on FoxSports for a few months a year seems like much easier for Brady then returning to play-and to a team in middle of complete rebuild-so I say that is very unlikely.
Yes I fully expect Tomlin to leave Steelers and would have another HC coach job within a day- could be with Dallas.
I think it was just announced that Tomlin told his players that he would be back in 2024…
Not that a coach has never lied, before, but…would be out of character for Tomlin to say that and turn face.
Given the retirement news, we pushed this article (https://www.zoneblitz.com/jason-kelce-hall-of-famer/) back to the top of the site…
Suspect that at this point the argument is less “Is he a HOFer?” and more “What ballot does he get in on?”
But I would argue he’s not a 1st ballot guy, despite what several people are claiming online (suspect there might be a little bit of Eagle bias in those posts).
John Turney suggests Jason Kelce will be 1st ballot which is very possible-I just look at how voters have viewed the center position (and there are only 8 in PFHOF) and wonder if he waits a few years…
its election day (finally)
and list of members for the class of 2029 ballot (including potential none yet confirmed retired post 2023 season) could be:
2029- WR Julio Jones (ATL)?, C Jason Kelce (PHI), OT Jason Peters (PHIL)? CB Patrick Peterson (ARZ)??, LB Von Miller (DEN)?? DE Calais Campbell (ARZ) ???, OT David Bakhtiari (GB)
-? ?? mean not yet announced retirements
Of all these the most likely first ballot in 2029 would be Julio Jones
I dont believe Jones or Kelce will be first ballot but we will see … I also believe Kelce will be back next year. Could he and Travis both retire if the Chiefs lose to the Bills?
Jason has expressed considering retiring, where as Travis already stated he intends to continue playing
As voters meet today to elect class of 2024, in a perfect world, if I alone was one to select PFHOF class of 2024 from these modern finalists…it would be Peppers Gates AJohnson Willis Hester
but my prediction of results, the five modern players elected will be Peppers Gates AJohnson JAllen Willis
I wish I was a Pro Football Hall of Fame voter and a member of the Senior Committee and Coach/Contributor committee but unfortunately I’m not
The Pro Football Hall of Fame used to post snippets of the voters presentations and the ballot that’s going to be used on Twitter but they haven’t the last three elections I wonder why
class of 2024 election meeting has been completed,max five of modern candidates can be elected (plus 3 seniors+1 coach-contributor) revealed on NFL Honors show Thurs Feb 8th 9-11p EST CBS
(guessing voters asked Hall not to release those snippets of presentations as I recall for some voters-whose candidate did not get elected-received some pretty harsh comments on social media directed at them.
(Not sure what you mean by ballot that’s going to be used on Twitter-perhaps referring to the Ford sponsored contest the Hall had that allowed folks to vote on who they felt should be elected which eventually morphed into predict the results contest.
My understanding is that Ford dropped sponsorship so Hall never ran the contest for 2024 election cycle.)
three weeks to the announcement..so lets proceed with our annual predictions contest (winner-if no ties-gets to add The Greatest to their user name here for the next year)
so please post or re-post your prediction for the final 5 modern candidates elected yesterday to the class of 2024-not whom you would elect but predict results from the 50 actual voters… I will keep track on a spread sheet and announce results following the official reveal on the NFL Honors show, Thurs Feb 8th.
Class Of 2024
Randy Gradishar
Art Powell
Steve McMichael
Buddy Parker
Allen
Gates
Peppers
A Johnson
Woodson
Paul I mean the actual voting ballot that the voters are going to use they use to do it with the paper ballots and the digital ballot
As much as I like Jim Porter I don’t like his idea for future meetings I like the current setup better
Paul: did you get my predictions of: Allen Gates
Gradishar McMichael Parker Peppers Powell Wayne Woodson
Brian and Robert: Eric or Jared
Jared Allen
Holt
Johnson
Peppers
Willis
Gradishar
Powell
McMichael
Parker
Roger : Jared
Jared
“Paul I mean the actual voting ballot that the voters are going to use they use to do it with the paper ballots and the digital ballot
As much as I like Jim Porter I don’t like his idea for future meetings I like the current setup better”
not sure actually what you mean here… traditionally (for decades pre 2021) they would meet in person, submit paper ballots and an independent accounting firm would count (for each stage of the voting process for the finalists), due to covid 2021-2023 it was Zoom meeting with ballots submitted via an digital ballot… last spring Porter (guessing supported by a number of Hall staff and voters) expressed interest in returning to an in-person meeting for 2024 and decided ATL was more centralized location to assist writers traveling from site to site during playoff week
… I think may people can understand and appreciate that the presentations and discussions for the finalists can be more effective in-person and looks like aim is to return to that format (bad weather messed up planning this year).
so I don’t see your concerns or reservations here…
And yes I have predictions from BrianW, Robert, Justin (and for others, no need to list seniors or coach as we can assume all are elected and are not including in our contest)
for record my picks are Peppers Gates JAllen AJohnson Willis
(to date with four entries we have four unique set of 5 finalists predictions)
Peppers, Gates, J.Allen, Holt, Willis plus the seniors and coach.
Speaking of predictions …
Saturday Divisional games
Ravens and Bills
Alot of you on this site thought the last Bills-Chiefs playoff game was one of the best ever, can these teams have another great game?
Can Buffalo finally beat them in postseason?
Pulling for Texans but the cold and Ravens defense will be tough …
Haha I goofed … forgot the NFC game was tonight.
GB lost its poise while missing a huge FG as the 49ers drive down and get the winning TD from McCaffrey. Baltimore easily won as the Texans defense had no answers for Jackson running with the ball.
With the #1 seeds surviving today, good matchups tomorrow as well …
Picking Detroit and Buffalo
Think we had an inadvertent leak of a player that didn’t make the hall: Willie Anderson was recently described by a voter as a “top ten guy who didn’t make it.” Not a surprising result, but very surprising leak given last few years.
five submissions to contest so far…and five unique predictions–interesting…
Can anyone else confirm the leak from Justin?
Big news, considering how well they kept confidence last year …
During this weeks Eye Test for Two podcast (from Thursday) voter Ira Kaufman made comment that inferred Willie Anderson was not elected (and this was after Judge noted they couldn’t discuss details on election meeting) but they talked about already looking towards meeting next January with loaded ballot of first time eligible guys including AdamV and Eli…4 or 5 first ballot guys (not that all get elected) and Ira referred to Anderson as a top 10 guy-among those returning next year against those first ballot… was very subtle comment
So he didn’t come right out and directly say Anderson wasn’t elected nor reveal any other results
Sheesh, this game is a 2021/22 replay and Buffalo’s defense is already gassed. Can Buffalo keep running the ball down the Chiefs throat?
Great game though the Chiefs offense slowed down at the end. I thought Buffalo would get a TD to take the lead but missed the FG instead.
Like Lafleur against SF, McDermott cant beat the KC.
Diggs dropped a huge bomb that could have changed the game but the Bills still had their chance. In the last two playoff games against KC, Stefon Diggs has caught 6 passes for 28 yrds and no TDs …
Mahomes/TKelce/Reid and Jackson/Harbaugh improve their Hall chances and legacies with possibility of moving into another SB and seek win..while Allen and the Bills may be running out of opportunities to do so..and in Detroit we could be seeing the rise of the next great team..who could make history of their own next weekend to finally get to SB-as a franchise that has never been to one..
While Jason Kelce cemented himself in the nation as the brother-in-law or uncle that everyone has in their family..
The Lions have a great offense for this inflated era but it will probably end once Ben Johnson is hired as a HC somewhere … we will see. I hope he comes back because the Lions defense still has to improve to dethrone the 49ers but an upset this weekend would be awesome. Purdy admitted that the team was going to pursue Tom Brady, if his arm didnt heal properly but did Tom refuse?
Either way, the pressure is on if he were to flop against the Lions or Ravens/Chiefs in the SB. I believe he will do well and stay there for a long time, yet would they pursue Cousins, if he faltered this weekend?
The Titans dont appear to want to wait on Johnson, opting for Brian Callahan from the Bengals. Did they even interview Belichick?
Youre right Paul, Harbaugh and Jackson might have early cases themselves if they won it all.
Jackson surely isnt a HOF thrower but his winning pct, running ability and MVP-All-Pro accolades will help his cause. I am pulling for the Chiefs though.
If there is any team to prove me wrong on back-to-back championships–which I still believe will never happen again–its Kansas City.
Paul let me show you what I mean when talking about actual voting ballot
https://twitter.com/ProFootballHOF/status/1223578934874341376
https://twitter.com/ProFootballHOF/status/1351605349971738625
You also said this about Jim Porter’s idea for future meetings
“For the future I know Porter is pondering a two day meeting in mid January, have seniors and coaches-committee meet on day one to select their finalists (meetings currently held in August) and than 2nd day for full selection meeting of all 50 voters to elect class of moderns, seniors and coach-contributor-but that’s not in place for 2024 election.”
Paul I’m trying to post what I mean by actual voting ballot but I every time I try to post the Twitter links that show the ballot ZoneBlitz won’t let me
You also said this about Jim Porter’s idea for future meetings
“For the future I know Porter is pondering a two day meeting in mid January, have seniors and coaches-committee meet on day one to select their finalists (meetings currently held in August) and than 2nd day for full selection meeting of all 50 voters to elect class of moderns, seniors and coach-contributor-but that’s not in place for 2024 election.”
Guess it was just a thought by Porter (refreshing in that he is willing to consider out of the box improvements), have no idea how serious a proposal it is or whether it has support of Hall Board, staff and voters (a two day election meeting in Mid Jan). Partly he’s looking at the one month (July to August) from senior and coach-contributor semifinalists to selection of their finalists as too short of a time for those committee members to do the research and fully consider all the candidates before meeting in late August to vote. And since many of the voters are active members of the media covering the league or team one season starts, having meetings of a large group of voters from Sept-Dec is problematic. And even logistics of one day in-person meeting, regardless of whether in Canton or more central location like Atlanta, can also be a challenge in mid Jan as we saw this year due to weather. In past in-person meeting was never issue since it was on the Saturday before SB when all are in town and typically very quiet media day since players/coaches are not available being locked down at off site hotels.
Not sure if the timeline of the election process, which with exception of moving election meeting from Saturday before SB to mid Jan (to accommodate the much better media and PR benefits from presentation on NFL Honors show Thursday before SB), has been same for decades needs to be improved or will be, but again I can appreciate Porters’ interest and efforts since becoming PFHOF President to at least consider new ideas and talk to Hall staff and voters seeking their input.
Regardless of the weather impacts this year, Porter seemed very insistent last spring that an in-person final election meeting is much more effective than a Zoom meeting (and he indicated many voters felt the same way)..so I suspect the one day election meeting in Jan 2025 will be in person-likely try for ATL again. Now whether that increases to a 2 day meeting (with special committees on day 1) remains to be seen-guessing will not be until this spring or summer that we hear of any changes to that or any other part of the process (for example mandating one of three senior slots to a pre 1960 super senior-another idea he has tossed around).
But for now we just sit and wait until NFL Honors show on Thurs Feb 8th for announcement of class of 2024……
Sorry Andy P, we had a spam problem a while back, so any post with more than one link gets put into a manual approval process…I’ll see if I can relax that a little bit with some of the other changes we’ve made.
Andy P: I think I still have my list of deserving seniors that I shared with you on Pfra shall I share it here
Yes please Robert but I don’t remember getting it though I’ve tried joining PFRA but my account has to be approved I’ve sent them an email with confirmation of my membership but they haven’t responded
For Andy P …
Try emailing andypiascik@yahoo.com. He will forward you to the treasurer Adam Connelly.
I think Connelly’s email address is pfra.1920@gmail.com but not sure …
Okay, will try again for Andy P …
Try the treasurer, Adam Connelly at pfra.1920@gmail.com
Brian I just sent Adam an email thank you
If you cant reach him Andy, try andypiascik@yahoo.com
i want to sent an apology to andy p i thought you were another andy p
Bill B quickly running out of HC opportunities- guessing organizations wising up to not giving total roster control to guy 29-38 win loss record last four years
I was thinking the same exact thing about belichick paul no one wants to give him full control
It’s alright Robert you can publish the list I would like to see it if you don’t mind
Here you go Andy P
1. Bruno Banducci
2. Dick Barwegen
3. Gene Brito
4. George Christensen
5. Lavern Dilweg
6. Ox Emerson
7. Randy Gradishar
8. Larry Grantham
9. Leon Gray
10. Dave Grayson
11. Cornell Green
12. Chuck Howley
13. Billy Howton
14. George Kunz
15. Verne Lewellen
16. Eddie Meador
17. John Niland
18. Jimmy Patton
19. Michael Dean Perry
20. Duane Putnam
21. Lou Rymkus
22. Del Shofner
23. Jim Ray Smith
24. Walt Sweeney
25. Al Wistert
Obv with gradishars probable induction this year need a new name to replace him any ideas
Robert your gonna have to remove Chuck Howley from the list since he’s now in and with Randy Gradishar hopefully getting in your going to have to remove him too
thanks for the heads up andy which two names shall i add in place of gradishar and howley
here is my current top 25 seniors for 2025 class (feel pretty solid about top 10-then could be plenty of variations of the order 11-25..
(notes, finalist in 2023 or 2024, F6 means they made final six that election)
1. WR Sterling Sharpe (F2023-F6,F2024)
2. RB Roger Craig (F2024-F6)
3. LB Maxie Baughan(F2023,F2024)
4. CB/S Eddie Meador (F2023,F2024-F6)
5. QB Ken Anderson (F2023,F2024-F6)
6. G Bob Kuechenberg (F2023-F6)
7. CB Albert Lewis (F2024)
8. LB Tommy Nobis (F2023)
9. OT Al Wistert (F2024)
10. OT Joe Jacoby (F2024)
11. F Otis Taylor (F2024)
12. F Lavvie Dilweg
13. G Ox Emerson
14. CB Everson Walls (F2023)
15. DB Jimmy Patton
16. WR Del Shofner
17. OL Dick Schafrath
18. LT Jim Tyrer
19. QB Verne Lewellen
20. CB Lester Hayes
21. DE L.C.Greenwood
22. LB Larry Grantham
23. LB Karl Meckenburg
24. OL Walt Sweeney
25. OG Ed Budde
Robert that’s a tough one I don’t know which two
Paul the Twitter links did post after all did you see what I was talking about
Thanks for the feedback Andy p I think for now I will leave it at 23 unless I think of two more
I know I posted this in the post about the Class of 2023 but I’m going to post it again
I have a confession ever since I started commenting here I can’t stop coming here to see if there are any new comments or to comment I check it everyday
Yes I saw those posts – no idea why Hall hasn’t posted those on Twitter in recent years but guessing as time goes by they have different staff or intern posting social media content and always mixing up with new and unique content – not sure what is really revealing in showing us paper or electronic ballots. Perhaps they preferred to post other topics to draw eyes to their social media posts. For example all the recent ones in the new Steelers display at PFHOF -clearly intended to entice folks to visit Hall
Kelce continues his postseason excellence for KC, can the Ravens win at home?
The lions could be making history if the don’t blow their lead since the Lions never went to the Super Bowl before
Detroit did a choke job by giving up that big halftime lead.
test
I couldn’t post on this site for months. A real bummer! I have a lot to say but I don’t want to get too invested only to be stymied again. . I’ll say the KC Chiefs are an amazing organization. Go Chiefs!!
What killed the Lions was passing on a FG attempt with a 24-10 lead and then a tough but dropped pass. The air went out their balloon. Aiyuk made a Lynn Swann type catch to ignite the comeback.
Why are we missing your wisdom TonyP ?
Baltimore missed their chance with a dud but the Chiefs defense played big.
Tony P welcome back……if interested we have our annual contest to predict the five modern members of class of 2024 – just post yours here and I will add to my list
Agree with you Brian on not taking the FG at 24-10. If it had been a 55 yarder instead of 45 I would understand but a FG there restores the 17 point and three-score lead the Lions had at half time. The Aiyuk catch and Gibbs fumble were both huge momentum changer.
Being aggressive is to be applauded but the score and field position have to be factored into the equation.
I hope this is just the start for the Lions. They’re 2-3 players away from being a very serious contender for the remainder of the 2020s.
Lions appear to be well set up as contender, but history has often showed that coming back from such a loss the next season is not always easy to just pick up and continue…plus they will need to replace key coaches and address FAs, continue to draft very well…..have potential to be a major player in the NFC in future years..but I am not totally convinced Goff at QB is the guy to do that-sustained season and career success-and drafting late in round or looking to FA for elite QB is hard…may be in near future they stock pile picks or players and make a move to get one..not suggesting for 2024 they need elite QB but past next season if they look to sustain as a major contender (and no…..I have no idea which current vet QB would fit that need)
I like Campbells’ aggressive style as well BoKnows34, but it cost him in both this and the Cowboys game. Sometimes you need to trust your kicker, who has to be involved as well and get the damn points.
That Baltimore game was ugly to the Ravens fans watching it. The offense just couldnt handle the pressure during a tight game, with every chance to get back into it. Flower’s fumble hurt and the team just lost its composure.
These things happen when a team thats used to blowing out teams–even good teams–suddenly gets an opponent that is ready to play, with a good game plan but with the defense for the Ravens constantly stopping the Chiefs in the second half, they felt it was better to let Jackson keep the ball in his hands than going back to their running game.
Jackson never could get into a passing groove and couldnt get Likely or Beckham, going …
As for Detroit, you hope they can meet expectations and stay a contender but with Ben Johnson probably going to Washington, the players will have to adjust to a new coach, unless someone within gets promoted.
Youre right Paul, but in Goff’s defense, those dropped passes–including interceptions–killed the Lions. They finally got something going into the 4th Qrt but with a chance to tie the game at 27 … Campbell decides not to take the second FG attempt and they miss badly on 4th down. McCaffrey just runs and builds on the lead, as the Lions defense is just gassed.
If Johnson comes back they should hold steady offensively–even Goff– but if not, the draft and free agency has to bring in playmakers for the defense.
I did not mean to suggest or imply that Goff was reason for the loss..he had a very good season and playoffs..and for 2024 likely he remains as QB..but was considering if Lions are truly built for a sustained run I am not so certain QB position is set as that needs an elite QB and he’s not one. Perhaps like the SB Rams team was built (ironic that he was one key move made to change), in near future Lions will need to go all in with players/draft picks or spend in FA to grab them one as final piece.
Thanks Paul. I’ll give my five soon. Wisdom hmm! LOL
The question I have is if Christian McCaffrey has a big Super Bowl performance in a San Fran win how likely is he to make it to the HOF? Can you put a percentage on it? He’s getting close to Terrell Davis territory as far as stats. One more really good year and he’s only 27. He certainly is a unique player with two years over 2,000 yards from scrimmage in the way Deebo Samuel is. Do you think he’s a more talented player than Roger Craig?
Isn’t anyone going to talk about the Chiefs? LOL What a disappointment for Baltimore who had their chance but didn’t seem mature enough in the big game.
In Baltimores case Tony p it wasn’t maturity that cost them the game , the main reason was that they abandoned the running game that got them there
All good points …
The Chiefs have had the killer instinct this postseason, especially the defense and will need it in the SB against the 49ers and their weapons.
Maybe in this matchup, Kyle Shanahan wont screw up the playcalling like he did in his previous SB games. Can the Chiefs prove me wrong and go back-to-back? We will see if Purdy can show Montana like poise in the biggest game …
A SB win will help these players HOF chances
KC Win
Mahomes — will make the HOF, can he be only the 5th QB with three or more SB wins
Kelce — will make the HOF, racking up postseason numbers along with All-Pro accolades
Reid — will make the HOF, can be only the 4th HC with three or more SB wins
Jones — could win his third SB. Two time All-Pro
SF Win
McCaffrey — two time All-Pro, twice leading in scrimmage yards and possibly twice OPOY
Kittle — two time All-Pro and the most complete tight end in todays game
Williams — will make the HOF as a three time All-Pro
Bosa — still alot of career left but All-Pro and DPOY
Warner — three time All-Pro and considered the best linebacker in football
Gabbert — juss kiddin … goes from being bad luck on a team to possibly two SB rings backing HOF QBs. Great work while you can get it!
Chiefs have opportunity to seal the deal as dynasty of the 2020s but win or lose, Reid, Mahommes and Kelce are already set as PFHOFers-if they retired after this SB they would all easily be elected.
SB win would certainly help all the aforementioned 49ers-but unlike those three Chiefs, the 49er players (perhaps with exception of Williams) will need more accomplishment in rest of career to boost their cases.
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/aEs69oUMb1J4fGjg/?mibextid=K35XfP
Three time Pro Bowler, one time All-Pro, OROY, one MVP, one OPOY, one SB appearance, sub 60 percent completion percentage, 123 INT vs 194 TDs, 5,600 yards rushing with 75 TDs.
HOF consideration?
Consideration for Cam, of course. All players should be considered. Does he have my support? He does not. QB is already very well presented in the HOF. It is very difficult for QBs to be enshrined, as it should be. To me, Cam’s peak was not high enough or long enough to override his relatively short career and lack of traditional metrics. He also never had back to back winning seasons. When he was playing well, he was excellent (and seemed to have virtuous cycle of good play begetting more good play), but when he wasn’t playing well, the opposite occurred and he was a below average starter. But he had a wonderful career, and holds a unique place in the game’s history. It just wasn’t enough to make the HOF, but perhaps the HOVG.
Agreed justin maybe for the panthers ring of Honor not the hof
I agree with Justin … Cam was a running weapon at QB but not a HOF career. Despite a strong arm, he could have a windup that tipped off defenders, similar to Leftwich but slightly faster.
Lamar Jackson is developing as a passer but his career is going similar to Newton’s.
I dunno, Newton could throw better than I give him credit for, especially earlier in his career.
I am wrong about what I wrote about Jackson. Far more consistent winner than Newton but will he stay more healthy? His running style, though he stayed healthy this year, could still go sour with repeated hits, so he has to keep getting better as a thrower.
Everyone talks about how de-valued the RB position is, but Ordell Beckham, who didnt do anything in this championship game and had less than 600 yards receiving this year, still walked away with 17 million. Will the Ravens let him walk?
There receiving TE, Likely, could be rising star if they utilize him along with Andrews and Flowers in the future.
In an 11 yr career Cam had one outstanding season and one very good season..both largely results of the rushing TDs.. as a passer he flashed potential at times but just two seasons over 65% completion rate and career at 59.9%-below league average for his era…three seasons 3800y passing…again average for era… and one season 30+ TDs… when you add passing TD and rush TDs he had three seasons 30+TDs.. and besides rookie season and perhaps 2015 and 2018 did he had top passing seasons—out of 11 seasons.. I just don’t see the quality career or enough great seasons based on status to see a PFHOF resume and also lacks post season awards and playoffs-just the one season. Yes he was enough of a threat running for TDS for most of his career to build up record for most by a QB but he was not the first to do so (and others were better, more successful QBs and passers- Cunningham, McNabb, Vick, Jackson) Cam in his mind thinks he was the best passing-running QB in NFL history but I suspect he is the only one who believes that.
And he is not a PFHOFer, and doubt very much voters ever give his case serious consideration. In fact the longer he plays (plus will have 2x AP NFL MVPs), Lamar will surpass Cam in terms of running/passing QBs, which will only push Cam further back in voters mnds.
OBJ scammed the Ravens out of $17m – pretty sure they let him go and unless he takes vet minimum salary I seriously doubt any team signs him for 2024 (and no, he is not even close to having a PFHOF resume-and his career is done)
These are the modern players I think deserve the HOF for 2024 – 3/9 Julius Peppers, 3/8 Antonio Gates, 4/5 Jared Allen, 2/7 Andre Johnson, 1/6 Eric Allen.
I agree the three senior finalists are deserving though I would have preferred Kooch for Mongo.
oh i agree with you 100% tony P i would have def put in kooch before mongo simply for the reason that ole kooch is more deserving
Lamar Jackson is only 27. His running style could shorten his career but we shall see. Being a 3x PB,2X AP, potentially 2x MVP certainly puts him in elite air. If he were to have a career length like Cam I still would put Lamar in the HOF but years down the line. I see him winning MVP for regular season this year and 2 MVPs is such a hard accomplishment. Many players have won a MVP and will never make Canton. It is very hard to overlook TWO MVPs. As for Cam, I think he is destined for Senior Nominee. He had for sure a better career than 90% of all QBs. But the HOF is “supposed ” to be top 1%. If you put him in you can make cases for Boomer E, Roman Gabriel, Ken Anderson, John Hadl,John Brodie,Donovan McNabb and others. All of which I think are worthy.
Brad: I’d rather see those guys get into the hall of fame that you mentioned instead of cam
Champion or not, Jackson is a unique winning QB who is known for running but throws enough to make the postseason but his career has had alot of ups and downs from early success as an MVP, to playoff flops to using last seasons postseason as an injury excuse while drawing attention to an extension, to progressing as a passer to being humbled in a home championship game.
Can he stay healthy, can he win it all, will he need another head coach to lead him? A heady career that will excite and frustrate fans throughout the NFL; not bad for an athlete that some NFL experts thought would make a successful wide receiver.
I know … he was injured during postseason last year but was still accused of malingering but still leveraged his way into a fat contract as his own agent. Will the team maintain pieces–affordable anyway–that will help get him to a championship?
Will Harbaugh stay around to be part of it?
This team could lose alot on defense this year besides a young coach.
I predict the Ravens could have the first set of pass catching tight ends next year with over 1000 yrds, if Andrews and Likely can stay healthy …
Not likely Brian. LOL Sorry, :) Cam Newton started out like HOFer but got caught up with injuries and his persona and finished like a journeyman. A much better version of Vince Young but not a HOFer.
I like these QB’s as iconic for their organizations- Boomer E, Roman Gabriel, Ken Anderson, John Hadl, John Brodie, Donovan McNabb but only consider one of them as a HOF candidate, McNabb.
Let me guess tony p hard grading as usual, please stop
Haha … opinions can be strong on this site. Of the QBs Brad mentioned, Esiason has the weakest case, having only maybe, two great seasons but numbers can be funny. His stats in 1989 were almost the same as his MVP season in 1988 but the Bengals had a .500 season. Truly a game of inches.
I dunno TonyP … I have watched Isaiah Likely these past two seasons for the Ravens and feel if his coaches put him in positions to succeed, he could develop into a wide receiver, he has that kind of talent. Maybe not Anquan Boldin good but also not too far off with coaching, dedication and good health.
I know the Class Of 2024 was decided before this SB match-up but it wouldnt surprise me if former 49er, Willis and former Chief, Jared Allen get elected, though I predicted Allen. We will see.
NFL Honors Predictions
MVP — Jackson
OPOY — McCaffrey
DPOY — Garrett
COTY — Stefanski
CBPOTY — Hamlin
OROTY — Stroud
DROTY — Turner
My Choices If I Voted
MVP — McCaffrey
OPOY — Hill
DPOY — Bland
COTY — Ryans
CBPOTY — Hamlin
OROY — Stroud
DROY — Turner
I know you follow the Texans TonyP, wasnt their year incredible? I actually thought they would give the Ravens a closer playoff game but their offensive line and defense crumbled in the second half.
If they can keep Schultz and Dell can stay healthy, Nico Collins could become All-Pro, barring injuries.
AP waiting to announce their awards in partnership with the league via NFL Honors may give them a leg up in terms of “prestige” and press attention…but also comes at cost as with all the other major sports and football media outlets having already announced theirs (for example PFWA) ..leaves little in terms of surprise of AP results.
and reminder if you wish to be included in our contest to predict the 5 modern members of the class of 2024… if you have not done so already..post them here so I can add to my sheet.
Almost forgot to post my predictions! I’m going to play a bit of Devil’s Advocate, and guess that Antonio Gates does NOT get in on the first ballot.
Julius Peppers
Patrick Willis
Andre Johnson
Reggie Wayne
Eric Allen
Here’s my (probably totally flawed) rationale:
Cut in the 15 to 10 cutdown:
Fred Taylor – Simply not a Hall of Famer
Rodney Harrison – See Fred Taylor
Devin Hester – Doesn’t have current momentum, especially with 3 WRs on the finalist list
Darren Woodson – Deserving of a shot, but splits votes with Rodney Harrison
Jahri Evans – First time being a finalist, still has plenty of years on the ballot. Just feels like a candidate that’s easier to worry about in another year.
Cut in the 10 to 5 cutdown:
Jared Allen – Narrowly misses out with Peppers having a superior case at the same position, and some vote splitting happening with Freeney.
Dwight Freeney – Gets closer this year, but misses out for much the same reason as Jared Allen.
Torry Holt – Also narrowly misses out, as voters slightly favour Johnson and Wayne’s cases (both made the final 10 cut before Holt did last year)
Antonio Gates – Outside of his excellent receiving TD count, he has a very similar profile to Shannon Sharpe, but without the 3 Super Bowl rings. Gates was a fantastic tight end, but even in a light year for first-ballot inductees, he’d be one of the weaker first-ballot inductees in quite a while. If DeMarcus Ware can miss out on a first ballot induction, I don’t see why it can’t happen with Gates.
Willie Anderson – I only have him here because there was a comment made that he made the final 10. I don’t really see him as a Hall of Famer based on his post-season awards, but he was a very underrated tackle stuck on a brutal Bengals team, and I credit him for changing the narrative on right tackles being roundly inferior to left tackles. He’s a less extreme case than Fred Taylor of the Hall over-correcting for a long-time snubbing on post-season honours.
Why the 5 inductees get in:
Julius Peppers – Overwhelming sack totals and post-season honours. No-brainer first ballot inductee.
Patrick Willis – Despite a short career, he still has one of the best post-season award profiles on this ballot. Finally is not competing with Zach Thomas for votes. I think he makes a big jump this year.
Andre Johnson and Reggie Wayne – The Hall finally breaks the WR logjam. These 2 have been on the cusp for the past 2 elections, and are due for induction.
Eric Allen – Going for a Hail Mary on this one, but hear me out. For the first time in quite awhile, there isn’t an overwhelmingly deserving DB candidate on the finalist list. Allen is being discussed for the first time toward the end of his modern-era eligibility, and I think that he’s a candidate for a Rickey Jackson-type of jump from being a semi-finalist cut one year to being elected the next year. Despite being on some pretty mediocre teams (especially his Saints years), he spent his entire career as at least an above average starter and elite ballhawk, and for a 5-6 year stretch in the late 80’s/early 90’s was definitely an elite corner in the league.
He was overshadowed during this period by two of the best corners of all-time (Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders), so he missed out on some All-Pro teams that he likely played well enough to earn (like in 1993).
I think that he’s the type of player that would generate a lot of discussion among voters, and there’s a great case to be made that he outperformed his post-season accolades. It’s a totally subjective feeling that I have, but he just seems like the type of player that would be argued for in a finalist discussion vs. a candidate like Freeney or Hester that would be more likely to be argued against (e.g. Freeney was bad against the run, Hester was only good on special teams).
Anyway, that’s my two cents. Looking forward to the vote! Go Chiefs!
bslo ill agree with you on everything you said except for the part about gates ill disagree on the lack of super bowls hurting him maybe its just me but isnt that a little bit nitpicking
Thanks BSLO – I have added yours, so far we have 6 entries and amazingly they are 6 unique sets of five modern candidates predicted
and a little birdie told me that the seniors and contributor were all elected (alas I have no insight as to the moderns BUT John Turney recently posted his “wish list” a few weeks after the election….his five could be very revealing “insights”…hmmmmmm
https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/
With rumors floating on Twitter that Hester was elected I am closing our contest to no new submissions so just be 6 of us
Are you hearing, sensing the same thing on the internet like Paul, Robert The Greatest ?
havent seen a thing brian
Check on Twitter as several different sources are reporting Hester has been elected
Legit question : will this be a start of a run of special teamers being elected to the hall or will this be on a case by case basis , That being said i am very happy for hester
The whole reason Heater was elected was the somewhat specious argument that he is the greatest returner ever. If that is the standard, then it is hard to believe this will be the beginning of a run of special teamers. That said, Vinatieri will be the next kicker soon and I would assume Tasker has a better chance with the Seniors Committee now.
I am not convinced that Hester’s election starts a run on ST players as didn’t happen after Guy was first punter elected. No doubt Vinatieri gets in but that has been case since he retired but Tasker is no closer.
and if elected, it will make our contest very interesting as none of us picked him…leaving the other 4 slots to decide winner … and we have six different possible combinations for those four slots…
According to a comment from pgconboy on the PFRA website, Jarrett Payton, Walter’s son, could have been a possible leak as well but dont know if he said anything on twitter? Is he a possible source Paul ?
Damn, what a night for Da Bears(Bayrse!) fans, and now the nomineese!
He is one of the main sources on Twitter (I was able to confirm with a few sources I have that are not on social media)
Thanks Paul …
Wow, I guess another receiver or pass rusher doesnt make it? Its doubtful Woodson makes it as well … I had forgotten that Jared Allen was once a Bear …
As usual I fully agree with Paul 100%,
my guess (and that is all it is) that election of Hester will most likely cost JAllen as pretty sure Peppers Gates AJohnson are “protected” and certain elections….or could cost Willis…. but between Willis or JAllen I think Hester more likely costs JAllen a slot…
I think you are 100% spot on Hester most likely blocked allen
test test. lol
Jeepers. Where was I? I called a tough grader. l resemble that comment. lol
John Hadl threw a great deep ball. Had several good years with the AFL. And I will never forget his great year with the Rams and the bombs to Harold Jackson. He may get in as an AFL Hall of Very Good but he wasn’t a good big game QB. Loved John Brodie and wanted him in the HOF when he was alive because I think he was a great guy. Still if honest, he doesn’t quite have the resume. Too many losses. Boomer Esiason had too many losses also. He was too hot and cold on bad teams. Another QB who started out good. Roman Gabriel’s fumbles much like David Krieg can’t be overlooked. He also played on some great Rams teams and couldn’t deliver in the big games. That mattered more in those days to making the HOF.
Haha … I hope ur right about Willis, Paul … that might be a good omen on a winning bet with SF.
Tony P; Ill agree with you on Brodie and Hadl both of them threw way too many interceptions for my liking i will slightly disagree however on esiason and gabriel
Lots of people confirming Hester, Peppers, McMichael, Powell, Gradishar, and Parker. That leaves three open modern slots. Presumably if Jared Allen made it, he would have been listed in all the Bears leaks…So it feels like Gates, Willis, and Johnson. Anyone hearing anything confirming?
While I’m rooting for Holt, that would be a good class: Peppers, Gates, Willis, Johnson, and Hester.
not hearing anything recent but Peppers, Gates and A Johnson have been strong selections for a while, guessing 5th and final slot comes down to Willis or JAllen. Again I would refer folks to Turney’s “wish” list published last week on his PFJ website (after actual elections were held) and since he has the ear of voters its very likely that is also the results…..
another way to look it–which candidates are getting NO buzz (from media, voters..while ignoring fan buzz which is meaningless)…. I would say Fred Taylor, Willie Anderson, Eric Allen, Reggie Wayne, Rodney Harrison—not saying they never get elected but for 2024 they all seem very unlikely
It’s very easy to see the 49ers winning this SB with all of the firepower they have. The key to me is if the KC defense can stop the run. KC was hurt by losing ex Longhorn DE Charles Omenihu to a knee. And will their excellent secondary be able to come up with some interceptions off Purdy.
If so it will be close. The line is -2.5 49ers so they think it will be close and I say when in doubt go with the home team and or the best QB. That said I won’t be beating on this one. LOL
“betting” lol . we need edit. :)
If John Turney feels his picks arent 100 percent accurate, that leaves possibly Johnson, Willis or Gates being replaced. With Hester and Gates, maybe Johnson doesnt get elected?
That would be possible Brian since It’s possible that the wr’s canceled each other out
Reminder guys the Class of 2024 will be announced at NFL Honors starting at 9 pm on CBS like all of you I’ll be watching can’t wait for the announcement
Turney feeling his picks aren’t 100% is his way of not been seen as predicting results weeks after the election, hence having the advantage of likely knowing the results…and news just dropped (via SI) that Allen was not elected…but also from a few sources hearing that we could expect a major surprise (not involving Gradishar) that will also annoy some of the voters ….which could be a modern or Parker and/or Powell not elected. No idea if rumor is true or what it involves…just putting out there that we may all be shocked later tonight… and I am not going to be on here in coming hours posting more leaks..likely will not come back until after results are announced on show
I just thanked Turney for responding to my question. Very interesting development. I thought we already knew that all of the seniors and contributor were elected, but maybe that was inaccurate. Judge definitely confirmed that all five finalists were elected.
My guess is that one of the surprises is Hester. I have to assume that some of the old-school electors were troubled by the unanimity about him being the GOAT of returners. in short, Deion Sanders almost certainly would have the greatest returner of all time if he had done it full time, but why waste his talents and risk injury in that context. Same for Darrel Green. In any event, Hester’s election seems like an obvious surprise that has already leaked, and, notably, none of us on this website predicted Hester’s election.
The other surprise could be Holt or Wayne over Johnson (or in addition to Johnson with Gates waiting a year). The more I think about it, this seems to be what Judge has been pumping with “there might be two WRs” comments.
I’m now more interested for tonight than ever before.
Just saw a photo of Andre Johnson in Las Vegas on twitter (for whatever that might be worth)
I don’t know exactly what bombshell will be but it’s biggest enough to piss of some voters – either Parker and or Powell didn’t get 80% of full committee
TMZ just reported Gates was not elected
Ah, I was just about to mention as Gates as the potential bombshell. I’m guessing two WRs (Johnson, Holt) possibly made it with Peppers, Hester and Willis.
Boknows – You took the words out of my mouth. I had a sneaky feeling that the electors might treat Gates as a “receiver” rather than “tight end.” That opened up the possibility of placing him in the queue.
Gates not getting in doesnt surprise me … Witten wont get in first ballot either … the next tight end on first ballot will be Gronk
I weighed up the possibility of going two WRs or DEs with my prediction.
I went with the two DEs option (Peppers, Allen) along with Gates, Holt and Willis. Looks like I’ll be 3/5 at best if Holt is indeed the 2nd “receiver” instead of Gates. That would leave two on offense, two defense and one on special teams.
Could Woodson be the surprise as well?
Agree, Brian – I’m maybe a tad bit surprised but definitely not shocked about Gates if he’s not in. There’s only been one first ballot TE so far. He shouldn’t have to wait more than another year or two though. I can see Witten waiting too.
Voters probably thought there was no rush to elect Gates with Holt waiting for so long. It also clears the WR backlog somewhat with Larry Fitzgerald on his way soon.
Fitzgerald and Witten join the ballot in 2026 so there’s a clear gap for Gates next year.
agreed with all 100% im not surprised or shocked in terms of gates
Andre Johnson is definitely in according to a few twitter sources.
Just released at start of NFL honors show – NOLA media outlet “The eight-man class consists of modern-era inductees Dwight Freeney, Devin Hester, Andre Johnson, Julius Peppers and Patrick Willis, along with senior nominees Randy Gradishar, Steve McMichael and Art Powell. Peppers is the only first-ballot inductee among the modern-era candidates.”
No mention of Parker ?
One thing I think were overlooking is that they cleared the backlog in a big way in terms of freeney Hester Johnson Willis
Btw In all honesty I’m more concerned with the Seniors than modern
I have no objection to any of the moderns. Quite a class, but the receiver backlog is a definite problem. Congrats to Andre Johnson, Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney, Devin Hester, and Patrick Willis.
Gates will get elected next year, but its still ironic that Hester with 39 TDs gets elected over Gates with 118 but as I mentioned earlier on this thread, with major players coming up for election, now was the time for Hester to get elected, two receivers tonight …
Apparently Parker didn’t get elected and several well known voters are really pissed – watch some fallout from King, Judge and others in coming days directed at their fellow voters
Agreed justin 100% you nailed it
Damn! I am too … This was one pick that makes the whole process look stupid, especially after hyping this event up, then to refuse an approved candidate!
Art Powell didn’t make it.
I seem to recall some complaining over Parker’s nomination because he a) wasn’t Robert Kraft and b) coached/died a long time ago. If either of those are reasons he wasn’t elected, it’s just plain dumb. I can’t think of a compelling reason for voting him down. I hope we’ll hear some explanations from voters. I doubt they will, but they might as well stick to their guns and keep nominating him until he’s elected. I think he should’ve been picked in 2020.
Powell not making it is also hard to understand.
Glad Gradishar made it, finally. Guess we have to be thankful he didn’t get axed. I find McMichael to be a little problematic for several reasons but I can understand his case. The moderns are all fine although Freeney is a little surprising. Just thought he was a tad one-dimensional and actually like Robert Mathis just as much if not more. Not underserving but thought he’d wait longer.
7 member class in Peppers Freeney Willis AJohnson Hester Gradishar McMichael (no Powell no Parker) with 6-10 consisting of WilleAnderson Woodson Holt Wayne Gates…. 3 elected jumped from 10-15 slots last year to election – over JAllen Holt Wayne
Congratulations to the new inductees but the night was frustrating with two chosen candidates being shut out. I was hoping this wouldnt happen Paul but it really doesnt surprise me. No voter cares about pre-60s coaches or players. They both could miss out next year as well.
I truly thought Jared Allen would get in before Freeney but was amazed two receivers got voted in.
Happy for Gradishar and McMichael at least.
Brian: Why do you keep saying two receivers were voted in? Are you counting Hester as a receiver?
Powell and parker are very very complicated cases my question is brian is are you ever happy or just love to complain
Yes to Justin and why wouldnt I complain Robert?
Youre going to put in contributors who never coached or played the game over a dominant coach of the 1950s? They were endorsed by different committees but cant get enough votes?
Finally, an AFL player has a chance to get elected but gets shot down after a summer process?
I dunno
Meanwhile, Gates cant get elected despite having scored more TDs than Johnson and Hester combined. A definite clean-up year.
First-time eligibles for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2025 include:
Eli Manning
Luke Kuechly
Adam Vinatieri
Terrell Suggs
Marshal Yanda
Marshawn Lynch
Earl Thomas
Joe Staley
Demaryius Thomas
Aqib Talib
Vernon Davis
Darren Sproles
Cameron Wake
Eli,Yanda,Luke, Adam, Suggs are for sure going in on modern ballot. Some of the others will have a long wait perhaps as Senior Nominees as well.
Ballot is getting packed.
My thoughts
I got 2/5
I’m pretty much in agreement with these choices but I do have reservations about those left off
How does Antonio Gates not make it first ballot
I’m shocked Buddy Parker and Art Powell didn’t make it
If this happened to Buddy Parker a pre 60s coach then imagine what would happened if the Hall of Fame made one senior slot a super senior I think the same thing would happen the super senior wouldn’t be elected because the voters never saw those guys play nor have they heard of them which is the problem I have with mandating one senior slot a super senior that’s why I think a special election for pre 60s candidates is a better idea with voters like Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge and historians like Bill Belichick Chris Willis John Turney and Ken Crippen like the Blue Ribbon that elected the Centennial Class
The Pro Football Hall of Fame should have been founded earlier then we wouldn’t be talking about Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell Al Wistert and Buddy Parker not being in the Hall of Fame
I’m so glad Randy Gradishar finally made it
I thought Torry Holt would be the Wide Receiver elected because he’s been waiting the longest of all the Wide Receivers and out of all the Wide Receivers on the 1970s 1980s 1990s and 2000s All Decade Team Torry Holt is the only one not in
I thought voters would want to put in Reggie Wayne before Dwight Freeney
With the election of Dwight Freeney every First Team Defensive players on the 1970s 1980s 1990s and 2000 All Decade Team are in
With Andre Johnson the first Texan in there’s someone to knock on the door of JJ Watt in 2028 and introduce him at NFL Honors
Three of us including myself tied in our contest with 3 out of 5 predictions correct – we didn’t get it all right but never did anyone in world I suspect
Parker is by far the most worthy of all these candidates and McCmichael doesn’t belong at all. I think the only way the hall can recover from this among football knowledgeable is if one of the voters to betray the others and explain publicly who voted against parker and why. Because the process right now show that the hall has closed the doors on pre 70’s people just because they are pre 70’s.
Parker is head and shoulder more deserving of every coach that has been elected since Parcells.
What the few decent Hall voters need to do to correct this is what the AFL City HOFvoters did back when the NFL ones refused to vote for any AFL players. They voted down Fran Tarkenton until they got the memo. A few decent voters should refuse to vote for any coaches/contributors until Parker is voted in.
Never would have thought the year the hall elected Gradishar I would grade them a Z- for their work on that class.
our contest winners….with 3 correct predictions each…. Paul, Justin and BSLO… we were three who predicted Peppers, Johnson,Willis
(thought I posted this last night but does not appear to have appeared here)
but I don’t think any of us should feel to bad as I doubt any where in world did someone go 5/5..as Gates OUT and Hester IN were not widely expected outcomes
and wow anyone predicting seniors and coach would have been way off.. as no one would have expected both Parker and Powell to be turned down by the full committee-will be plenty of thoughts and discussion on here and every other Hall related webpage, blog, podcast and Twitter in coming months…
and I like to may way too early next class predictions (heck why bother waiting as not going to be any more accurate next Feb…LOL)
class of 2025 LukeK, Gates, WAnderson, Holt, DWoodson (yea I am going with four from the 2024 election 6-10….whatever…)
There will be plenty of other predictions but thinking 2025 will be even harder than 2024 where we saw 3 moderns from 11-15 group in 2023 jump to election in 2024…so yea any of the ten 2024 returning finalists can be in 2025 mix…and yep many are going to predict too many 1st ballot in 2025 (as many folks tend to do) but I don’t think Eli and AdamV will be elected-but very likely finalists.
as reminder for 2025 first ballot: 2025: LB Luke Kuechly (CAR)*, RB Marshawn Lynch (SEA), QB Eli Manning (NYG), OG Marshal Yanda (BAL), S Earl Thomas (SEA), K Adam Vinatieri (NE), LB Terrell Suggs (BAL), OC Travis Frederick (DAL), KR/PR/RB Darren Sproles (PHI),
How many first ballot finalists are we thinking for next year? Eli, Adam V, Luke K and Suggs?
My much too early prediction is Gates, Luke K, Holt, Woodson and Jared Allen with Eli, Adam V , Anderson and Wayne in the 6-10 range.
This year’s defensive class does open things up at DE and MLB for Allen and Luke K, with Holt, Woodson and Anderson also at the top of their respective positions.
I dont believe Kueckly will be first ballot …
2025 Early Wishlist
Woodson
Gates
Wisniewski
Nalen
E Allen
2025 Early Prediction
Anderson
Gates
J Allen
Holt
Woodson
Great call, Andy P …
With Powell and Parker shut out, that ends the idea of a pre-60s super-senior getting elected, even if he was a considered designation of the three nominated players, hopefully by 2026, but these overrall voters dont care …
John Turney has a great argument about why voters turned on Parker because he left two ball teams before a season started, but those were different times, where a head coach could leave the team with a field general QB and assistant promoted from within.
Coaches cant get away with that now in todays’ game but even Jimmy Johnson got elected and only coached nine seasons, basically giving up on both teams he coached due to exhaustion. People will say Jones fired him, which happened as well but Jimmy was tired and let Jones do the dirty work. In 2000, both Johnson and Marino left the game.
I feel that the voters also were divided on Parker and Kraft. Kraft should get in for 2025–with Belichick gone–and I am hoping the voters rectify, and elect Parker for 2026 …
Voters made it pretty clear they have no interest in pre 1970 candidates – Powell and Parker are done – senior and coach-contributor committees will not come back with any pre 1970 finalists – in fact betting for next several elections it’s all 1980s to 1990s players and contributors
Sadly, youre right Paul and Judge Clark had a ‘cast with Rick Gossellin, who stated that the voters are getting younger and losing track of the games’ history …
It sure makes a person wonder about the timing of some of these players getting in. I think Freeney was very overrated his whole career. Willis maybe eventually but why did Zach Thomas have to wait so long? I guess I can’t complain about Hester because he was the best at what he did but is what he did of more value than a player who was on the field more?
I don’t understand keeping Powell out. He clearly has the stats. They obviously aren’t respecting the AFL.
Lack of tackles, assists, interceptions, TDs or not, Freeney was seen and known by these younger voters. Freeney was on a team with Peyton Manning, Marvin Harrison, while Jared Allen wasnt. Despite one championship, that Colts team now has six members to the HOF, counting Dungy and Faulk. Wayne will make seven members.
To my knowledge, the only eligible player that scored more TDs than Antonio Gates without making the HOF is Shaun Alexander and theyre still waiting, though Gates will probably get in next year.
Agree with you Tony on Freeney. Very overrated. I would have voted for Jared Allen over Freeney any day, and Suggs next year had Freeney still been on the ballot. Leslie O’Neal was better than Freeney and he’s fallen into the Seniors pool.
Hey gang if I sounded a little short there’s a reason I’m dealing with a very serious family emergency and I’m not too sure when I’ll be back on
Youre okay Robert … I was frustrated for Gates, Powell and especially Parker … Dont you remember how gleeful I was on PFRA, when he got the nomination in August?
I figured with Kuechly coming up, they had to put in Willis …
Yes I do and as I stated on pfra my guess i believe voters weren’t that familiar either one since powell hadn’t played since 1968 and Parker hadn’t coached since 1964,
One other thing Brian I’m pretty sure they go offensive heavy with the seniors in 2025, since 5/6 the last two years have been heavy on defense
Sharpe, Jacoby and Roger Craig have a great shot if that’s the case. Perhaps not all three but possibly two of them.
I’d say watch out for Craig and Sharpe based on how close they have been the last few years ,Here’s the thing Bo knows I’m torn between kuechenberg and jacoby
If was on the coaches committee I would put forward Parker again even until he is elected even when Belichick is on the ballot. I think the only reason they refused to put in Parker and Powell is being prejudiced against people who stopped their career before the voters were born. Frankly I think the only way to correct the problem is to do what the AFL voters did when they refused to elect any AFL players and hold hostage someone who the recency biased voters want in.
I highly doubt that both Parker and Powell were turned down by anything other than prejudiced for being born too early.
There isn’t a lot of video on Art Powell. He was a big WR at 6’3″ 211 lbs for those days and his shoulder pads made him look bigger. Maybe they weren’t impressed by what they saw? The guy clearly had some moves but he did look a little out of place to me..
Dont be surprised if Ken Anderson gets alot of consideration this year, or even gets elected.
Eli Manning will be a hot topic, especially with his brother already voted in but I am confident, he wont be first ballot and doesnt deserve to be.
He might make the HOF, but he also regressed more than any potential, HOF QB I have ever seen.
If he does make it, he will thank Ordell Beckham, who was blessed with god-given talent but was inconsistent and arrogant in his time with the Giants. Very disappointing for fans who expected the Giants to win alot more games than they did.
After Eli Manning won his second SB in early 2012, his record as a starter was only 48-67 until his retirement, as the Giants only went to the postseason a single time, the remainder of the decade.
In championship games he was clutch, but wasnt accoladed alot and wasnt a HOF thrower like Namath, Fouts, Jurgensen or Moon, who made the HOF despite a .500 or less overrall record. I would vote no, with Plunkett still not in but believe Eli will get in eventually …
I doubt very much we see Powell (or Parker) as finalist any time soon..also very unlikely those committees bring back any pre 1970 candidates….for coach-contributor Kraft and MikeH were next two with most support last two elections-guessing one will be their 2025 finalist…for seniors and 3 slots, these would seem to be the favorites for 2025:
WR Sterling Sharpe (F2023-F6,F2024)
RB Roger Craig (F2024-F6)
QB Ken Anderson (F2023,F2024-F6)
G Bob Kuechenberg (F2023-F6)
CB Albert Lewis (F2024)
OT Joe Jacoby (F2024)
So I would go with Sharpe and Craig….KAnderson could be 3rd (or replace Sharpe/Criag) but that last slot is often a surprise – plus to get a defensive player (and one they can get elected)- lets go with Albert Lewis
for my 2025 moderns predictions its Luke K, Gates, Holt, JAllen, Woodson…. and yea good luck getting 5/5 right as will be surprises and yep I just defaulted to four from the 2024 final 6-10
Predicting SF will win the SB over KC today.
Can the Chiefs prove me wrong, going back-to-back, which I dont believe will happen again?
Can the 49ers prove me wrong, with the Yorks hoisting the Trophy, when I feel they are disliked by the other owners?
We know which great players could have the games of their lives but what player could come out of nowhere to be the difference? Could the rookie, Rice be the difference for KC, or another player like McKinnon or Valdez-Scantling?
Could Juaun Jennings, Greenlaw or Chase Young on defense step up for SF?
Lets hope the end of the SB gets played out without controversial penalties. Hopefully, just the players will decide it …
My gut prediction is SF over KC by a touchdown. Hard to go against Mahomes but I think SF just has more firepower and is healthier.
As for the senior nominees next year…I do have a feeling that maybe the Powell/Parker debacle indicates there may just be no appetite for “old” candidates so my dreams of ever seeing the likes of Al Wistert, Verne Llewellen, Billy Howton etc being inducted are probably dashed. My personal top 3 for post-70s players would be Lemar Parrish, George Kunz and Joe Jacoby although it’s close. For my own tastes, I think the committee often bats about .330. For every really excellent nominee there are two underwhelming ones (although not necessarily flat-out bad). I have a feeling one of the three slots will go to a solid player from Paul’s list above and the other two could easily be guys who weren’t much on the radar last year. Something along the lines of Sharpe, Carl Banks and Jim Plunkett (in other words, I’ve become highly pessimistic about this once exciting process – I suppose it’s been worth it just to get Gradishar and Howley in).
Not to say I told you so and I certainly am not as knowledgeable about the HOF process as most of you guys but I felt it in my gut a couple years ago that they were done with the pre-modern players. Now it appears the 1960’s also. I didn’t think there could be too many left from the 60’s. Several who have been selected I’d like trade in now. LOL
Thats true Jeff … we have to hope that certain players still have a chance. When I first came on this thread, many didnt believe Howley had a chance but fan sites like this one, TalkOfFameNetwork, PFRA, PFJ and others kept demanding that his case be heard and it was.
We have to hope that the Seniors and Contributor committees continue to clamor and champion for older players and coaches, no matter what era they played in. One thing I dont like is all these homer beat writers deciding the fates of forgotten players and coaches. The Hall Of Fame needs more historians and researchers doing the voting instead but the process to determining these voters will need to change …
I’ll still contend and hopefully I’m not deemed crazy but I believe in my heart that between parrish and Anderson , parrish is the best eligible senior Bengal player, I see your a George Kunz supporter Jeff that makes me happy.
Tony P: I think your on to something in concerns to powell with looking way out of place
Best Eligible Seniors by SB Teams
Chiefs: Ed Budde Jim Tyrer(Won’t get in for Obvious reasons) Deron Cherry Albert Lewis
49ERS; Roger Craig
Intense, defensive game. 49ers should be up at least 13-9 but both teams are full of nerves.
Found our first dumb voter Jason Cole who clearly refused to vote for Buddy Parker (and likely Art Powell) because they were “rejected by those who saw him play”
He “thought” they spent too long speaking on Buddy Parker because he clearly doesn’t belong.
Said it on the Jason Smith podcast (Transcript available on line)
Chiefs proved me wrong. Watch out Tom Brady, with the way the media is talking, Mahomes and Reid will catch those seven championships in no time. Hardman had a terrible season until that TD catch. Great year for Kelce, now if only can only hang on to Swift … haha.
Chiefs defense saved the game. Had Chris Jones not hit Purdy, Samuel would have scored on an easy TD pass. The missed extra point by Moody might have cost them the game. The 49ers get inside the Chiefs ten yard line in overtime but fail to get a TD to take a 7 point lead …
yt can you post a link to it so all of us can read it I’m having trouble finding it online
https://app.podscribe.ai/episode/96271350
another podcast by Jason Cole from before the election where he says Buddy Parker is not a hall of famer
https://app.podscribe.ai/episode/90742356
They are not allowing me to post a link.
He gave too interviews on podscribe where he says Parker doesn’t belong in the hall
the one I mentioned before after the election episode 96271350 titled “Hour 3 – Knicks Win Trade Deadline + Biggest HOF Snub”
He also gave an interview when Parker was nominated where he said Parker didn’t belong episode
90742356 titled “Jason Cole talks 49ers Crushing Cowboys, Eagles & NFC.
Cole needs to stick with writing books about Plaxico Burress and Chad Johnson.
@yt I approved your post with the two links.
Just a heads up to everyone that has had issues posting links, I believe the filter that is bumping posts to moderation is set to do so when there are two links, not just one. Should be ok to post one link at a time.
Best Super Bowl finish in NFL history. Even better than Brady’s comeback versus Atlanta in Houston IMO. The Kansas City Chiefs came from behind four times in the game with two being last second. Never bet against Patrick Mahomes and I don’t. LOL
This could be one of the best playoffs runs to win a Super Bowl also. Who really thought they would beat the Bills and Ravens on the road after playing the Dolphins? I like the the two weeks off before the Super Bowl. Maybe the Chiefs don’t win if only one? Two weeks makes for the best SB.
Brian I agree. The Chiefs Defense was as important as Mahomes in the win overall. They really shut down the 49ers which I wasn’t sure if they could do. Mahomes did his magic but it was the Defense all year that kept them in games. That young Defense might be even better next year.
I wonder if Kelce hangs around at 35 years old? There’s no doubt where the Chiefs could use some help. They could use a number one WR and improvement at the Tackle position.
Look, there was alot of offensive holding on both sides but the Niners could never get to Mahomes when it counted. Those tackles deserve credit because they were terrible in the first half. I truly thought at halftime, the Niners would get to Mahomes more than the Bucs did in early 2021.
Both Kelces’ need to come back, theyre both great players and great for the game. The 49ers held Travis to one catch in the first half for one yard but had no answer for him in the second half. Andy Reid designs and calls the best pick plays since Bill Walsh. On both TDs to Valdez Scantling and Hardman, everybody ran to Kelce, while those guys got wide open. Mahomes as QB will get the credit but Kelce was MVP to me …
Since 2013/14 when Russell Wilson won the SB with Seattle, only Brady and Mahomes have won championships with the teams that drafted them. (Foles left Philly but came back as a backup) Can a new QB drafted by their team, finally unseat the Chiefs? Or will a team have to stop a potential three-peat, with a traded, or free agent QB?
Taylor Swift got her SB win which is totally on script for the NFL and only thing that matters to me and millions of other fans…………………
(rumor I heard is that the game head referee has a daughter who is a big time Swiftee.
Haha … the Brian Tuohy site, thefixisin.com agrees with you!
Peter King voted against Powell.
still don’t get how someone (for Football reasons) could vote against Powell but vote for McMichael.
Hope he also voted against Pearson because if Powell doesn’t belong, Pearson certainly doesn’t belong.
He also alludes to something major happening during the Parker debate.
The voters simply dont know NFL history. Since 1940, when the Bears won and popularized the T Formation, only 9 total teams have went to either three straight championship games or SBs.
Teams Going To Three Or More Consecutive World Championship Games/SBs
Bears — 4 (1940, 41, 42, 43)
Eagles — 3 (1947,48,49)
Rams — 3 (1949, 50, 51)
Browns — 6 (1950,51,52,53,54,55 –NFL only)
LIONS — 3 (1952, 53, 54)
Packers — 3 (1960,61,62)
(twice) — 3 (1965,66,67)
Dolphins– 3 (1971,72,73)
Bills — 4 (1990,91,92,93)
Patriots — 3 ( 2016, 17, 18)
Other than the Rams, who changed head coaches like underwear, every coach of these teams had or will make the HOF except — Buddy Parker, who not only won 2/3 but was 4-1 against Paul Brown!!
Peter King hasn’t ever indicated lack of interest or support for AFL candidates or pre 1970s coaches and players so there is something else at play with his decision there…. I suspect I know what it may be……
Paul, do you feel voters may have pulled a trade-off for someone next year and Powell in the future?
I think Kraft will go instead of Parker but can Parker get another chance?
Agree with everything I’m reading. Good insight. Is it possible Deion Sanders comments about the levels in the HOF is making some shy away from the older players now. I’m glad Johnny Robinson got in before the shift.
I am glad Pearson, Branch, Howley and Gradishar got in … they may be it. It will be interesting to see if any other 70s players make it, so Ken Anderson has a small window possibly. I was hoping Dick Anderson and Jake Scott would get their voices heard but its doubtful now, but Kooch still has a chance. Hell, do any senior interior players have a chance with these voters? No wonder Bachslunch and Rasputin got frustrated …
Tony I know for 100% certainty that deion was not talking about seniors but more in terms of modern Era players
I think in terms of Scott Anderson Kooch and
K. Anderson I don’t think the window has entirely closed on those guys but they need to get in asap, mainly because I think voters might be familiar with those 4 guys since they played in the 70s and 80s
I’m hopeful for any of these 12 players i listed to be finalists in 2025, Brian I apologize ahead of time I’m more of a 70s 80s guy
Dick Anderson
Ken Anderson
Roger Craig
Joe Jacoby
Harold Jackson
Mike Kenn
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Albert Lewis
Lemar Parrish
Jake Scott
Sterling Sharpe
Deion Sanders was clearly referring to players he saw that he doesn’t think belong, he was a baby when Powell stopped playing, and not even born when Parker stopped coaching.
It is amazing the year that the hall turns down 2 super qualified people, they allow in a mistake that only got in because of a sympathy vote.
Looking at the top 10 career in touchdowns (all types) after a season Art Powel is the only person who was ever in the top 10 most career touchdowns to not make the hall since 1960.
Paul what possible reason is there for not including Powell in the hall? The only reasons I see is I didn’t see him, those who saw him rejected him, or the AFL didn’t play defense or wasn’t a real league. I figured King (who I know supports old time NFLers) might still hold the old time NFL writers opposition to the AFL.
Robert does Kunz have a chance (I think he is over qualified but), he is an offensive lineman whose a 70’s player (so much of the voters never saw him) who never won a championship, who didn’t even make an all decade team. I’m not sure this voting group will ever vote for him. Each one individually kills candidates all together may be a death sentence.
I’m not sure the Seniors crew will even put forward 70’s player that didn’t play decently in the 80’s until this mess is straightens out.
I’ll agree with that yt
Great names Robert but difficult for many of them. Look out for players like Stanley Morgan, Mark Clayton and Deron Cherry. I hate to say it but it may finally be over for Benton, Shofner, Howton, Patton, Brito, Retzlaff, Meador(jeez) and Baughan. Only the senior committee can prove me wrong if they can persude others?
“I’m unable for reasons of voting security to say something significant that was discussed.”
Peter King on Buddy Parker.
Even if it was racism, that still shouldnt excuse him.
George Preston Marshall was ordered by the federal government to include black ball players and he was admitted to the HOF early. Like John Turney stated, the Steelers had more colored players than any team in the league in 1964. Parker even gave John Sample and Gene Lipscomb second chances as players once the Colts let them go. Parker knew that Sample had been a thief in the Colts lockerroom …
Brian: of those names you mentioned I’m in favor of deron cherry and Stanley Morgan and I’m a maybe on Clayton, I’d also would add Henry Ellard and Karl Mecklenburg
Don’t blame king at all about voting security
2/6 LC Greenwood although only 78 sacks, was in on many tackles with his speed and quickness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yq-s8VMPPc
Between the 20s, Henry Ellard could put up some big numbers, Robert and he is worthy of the HOF but his TD numbers hurt. He only had four seasons with over 6 TDs and one in the single digits. Karl Mecklenberg is a great candidate as well but I wonder if half of these voters know who he is?
Sorry … double digit TDs for Ellard …
Assuming the reason for people voting against Parker goes against the rules (character issues that have nothing to do with football), or the spirit of the hall (we don’t vote for people who were important before the 70’s), than breaking the hall’s rules is the only way to uphold the halls rules.
It is not like the hall has never broken their own rules before, by not admitting Tyrer and shadow banning Sharper. The whole lost a ton of credibility in the among football historically knowledgeable by denying Parker and to a lesser extent Powell, King or anyone else revealing should make the hall give him an award for whistle blowing. In all my years over following the Football hall this is by far the lowest I ever felt towards the hall voters. And I thought every senior the hall turned down since I started following it belonged and this goes back to when they still turned down moderns.
The hall puts in someone who likely does not belong for reasons that go against the rules, but and exclude 2 who clearly belong, including one who is in the upper half of the hall for reasons that go against the entire concept of the hall
this (by a voter) makes for a very interested read as issue that has been raised in past about Parker apparently spilled over into a very contentious election meeting…
https://thelandondemand.com/news/2024/feb/12/inside-the-2024-pro-football-hall-of-fame-selection-meeting/
background story here…
https://www.metrotimes.com/arts/were-the-detroit-lions-discriminatory-when-it-came-to-fielding-black-players-25651136
Thanks Paul …
I tried to get Richard himself to enlighten about Parker’s racial issues in the NFL but he didnt. This article explained enough but we cant change how NFL history, and unfortunately, society was back then. Could he have won more with black athletes?
Of course, but his team was tight-knit as they were and full of veterans that would have been a hard line-up to crack. Regardless, his accomplishments as a HC speak for themselves. Who cares that he resigned from the Cardinals, he was co-coaching the team and wanted to be the head man with Detroit. Bob Mann was a true pioneer though and the Lions should have kept him but the trade allowed them to get Bobby Layne.
other concern here is that off the field issues are not to be considered (that was made very clear during TO election mess), and voters like King strongly view they should NOT be…yet we know public comments were made when Powell was named finalist that his civil rights activism was mentioned as part of his case, plus we apparently have an election meeting which became very heated over the Parker case (over 1 hour discussion–far more than others, far more than the norm) in which PFHOF President Porter apparently had to step in and remind voters of the rules.
There is going to be fall out over this in the coming months, the results but also how discussion during meeting proceeded and topics raised…perhaps changes to the election process for seniors, coach/contributor, discussions and reminders to voters about the rules… and would not surprise me to see changes to the membership of the selection committee with voters replaced–not publicly (as Hall has made changes in the past without no notice) but we will see come summer perhaps changes as voters serve at pleasure of the Hall with appointments by the Board and we have seen in recent years some no longer serving, death and voluntary retirement, but I am aware of one voter losing his position (but not the circumstances). I know (from direct correspondance in recent days) that many voters, and members of those committee are very upset at the results and how election was conducted-conversations during these discussions, and Hall has a mess on its hands it needs to address. carefully and quietly over the next several months-but just watch as change is coming from the result of this….
That may all be true Paul but they get what they deserve. The Contributor and Senior Committees ENDORSED Parker and Powell with a voting process that the media milked out during the summer, just like with the modern selections during the winter. You said yourself last year, that you didnt believe the overrall voters would reject candidates, due to all the work that goes into the committee, voting processes, yet here we are …
I still hope we get 8/9 seniors voted in but its a shame that a multiple championship winning coach gets rejected, while contributors who never coached or played, get elected.
I would agree in regards to nominating Powell as a senior finalist, as I had concern from that announcement (and sure seems like other voters did) that his off the field activities was highlighted by the seniors committee and that was a mistake.
But in the case of Parker, the coach-contributor committee made an excellent choice and members of that committee did outstanding work in researching his resume and making strong push in that subcommittee and to the full committee for his election, the failure to elect lies on the shoulders of those voters on full committee who raised or implied racism and other aspects to sink his election-that was wrong, very wrong.
5 out of 6 seniors nominated 2023-2024 have been elected, and I do believe we will see the senior committee come back for 2025 with three solid candidates–but unfortunately ignorance and lack of interest/understanding of the history of pro football among far too many voters means they will not bring forth pre 1970s candidates-fortunately there are many from 1970s into 1990s.
Lets hope ur right, but I suspect even great players from the 1970s could have a hard time as well. If younger voters are adamant about players they have SEEN, forget about anyone who started their careers in the early part of that decade.
Oh I agree – 70s players could also find themselves shafted
Paul : only if they played in the 60s and 70s , 70s 80s players should be fine
Tony P: completely forgot about lc Greenwood e replaces ellard on my list, do you have any other names that I might have forgotten.
If anyone has any other names I might have missed let me know
To me Bob Baumhower was a special kind of player who should be in the HOF. I think he has the record for sacks from the NT position. His career was derailed by an injury but I think he did enough.
Art powerl cearly belongs even if is taking into account AFL defenses. He is head and shoulders better at scoring touchdowns than any other receiver not hall of famer!
most career receiving touchdowns in 1967
Rank Player TD
1 Don Hutson 99
2 Tommy McDonald 83
3 Art Powell 81
4T Don Maynard 68
4T Raymond Berry 68
6 Bobby Mitchell 65
7 Sonny Randle 64
8 Lance Alworth 63
9 Dante Lavelli 62
10T Billy Howton 61
10T Pete Pihos 61
let’s say the Powel’s playing in the AFL was worth 10 extra TDs he still is third in receiving TDs, penalize it much more and Maynard and Alworth start to look like mistakes
From the link Paul posted
Tony Grossi:
“The first votes to cut down from 15 to 10 came at 4:30 p.m. – 7 ½ hours into the meeting.
Eliminated on the first ballot were Eric Allen, Jahri Evans, Rodney Harrison, Fred Taylor and Reggie Wayne – exactly the way I voted.
The second vote from 10 to 5 came at 4:45 p.m. Eliminated were Jared Allen, Willie Anderson, Antonio Gates, Torry Holt and Darren Woodson. I had Allen and Anderson on my ballot.”
My notes.
Woodson has only four years left as a modern era candidate, but he’s made enough progress it’s likely he’ll make it within that timespan. Eric Allen only has two more shots. He needs a Sam Mills type leap.
Paul if you are correct I don’t get this vote, Despite the rules saying only football play.
hall of fame worthy Buddy Parker gets killed for supposedly being against blacks, hall of fame worthy Art Powell get killed for fighting for black rights, and not hall of fame worthy Steve McMichael gets inducted because of his off the field sickness.
I think that if racism killed Parker some who were against it being used and wanted to follow the actual rules of the hall decided to counter by killing the clearly worthy Powell to show those voters that only on the field things matter.
I guess the lesson to take out of the hall of fame class, is if one wants to be elected to the hall of fame, don’t get tagged as a raciest or a fighter against racism, and be a popular player for reasons that have nothing to do with football (wrestling) get a harsh terminal illness.
and to think we started this years hall of fame conversation by getting in to an argument over the fact that hall does have a unofficial character clause (that just killed Buddy Parker and their pretending there isn’t one also killed Art Powell). Between those who break the rules and those who think that pre 70’s don’t matter the hall is one big mess in ways it never was before.
Tony P: I’m very willing to add baumhower to my list tell you what just for you I’ll remove ken Anderson and replace him with baumhower how does that sound.
Look, Mongo had a great career. He is deserving, but like fellow white players, Klecko and teammate Hampton, they were loved by white beat writers who put them in for popularity as much as play.
Mongo simply jumped the process, ahead of other players and gets voted in, where Powell went through the same process, but was considered a trouble-maker and militant for wanting equal treatment for the black athlete. It wasnt just off the field stuff for Powell. If he was treated badly in the South or other segregated areas, he simply wouldnt play in the game.
Cookie Gilchrist and Abner Haynes are HOF worthy but wont make election because they stood up as players as well. After boycotting the 1964 AFL All-Star game, the Chiefs traded Haynes to Denver. Gilchrist dealt with so much racism in Canada, he refused induction into their HOF. Gilchrist fought with his owner in Buffalo because they didnt compensate him properly for playing on offense, defense and special teams. Yet by 2050, every damn owner will be elected to the HOF. Character clauses for players and head coaches are an issue.
You’re my new best friend Robert. LOL
I’ve been a strong supporter of Mongo for a while. It seems like if Powell did all that he would be embraced by today’s social justice culture. Maybe that’s why he was brought up in the first place? lol I do think he’s deserving strong consideration just off his stats. It’s good they took a look at him. If it is how you say Brian they shouldn’t waste any more time on him because it’s unlikely he gets across the finish line because of some strong feelings of dislike. That’s good info, thanks for sharing you too Boknows.
I am hoping TonyP that since they were both rejected, and now egg is all over the voters faces’ they will put them in like Tagliabue, (undeserving) and Stanfel (after he died, of course)
I wont hold my breath …
YT is right though … there is an unofficial character clause that needs to get eliminated, otherwise they need to stick to their supposed, rules …
there is no unofficial character clause…
Hall has policy that off the field issues are not to be considering when discussing the resume of a PFHOF finalist…problem Hall is facing is with voters ignoring that policy—apparently even after being reminded of policy during the Zoom election meeting on Jan 17th – and resulting failure for both Parker and Powell to be elected in what apparently was a very contentious meeting and an outcome that has upset several very prominent voters. Going forward Hall needs to have voters sign agreement to follow the rules and perhaps starting removing voters who raise the issues (voters serve at the pleasure of the Hall Board who appoint them, voters can be removed and other added as needed, no reason given, no public notice)-perhaps an example needs to be made of some voters in coming months-remove before next election cycle starts this summer. Pretty sure we have not heard the last of the fallout from the class of 2024 election.
Brian : overall I was satisfied with the centennial class with the exception of Ed sprinkle , I thought they could have gone with another player. My pick would Have been Ox Emerson or Dilweg
I’ll be back sometime soon to give my picks for the three seniors and 1 contributior
All in McMichael is a popular 2/2 player on the arguably the most high profile team ever. He seems overrated even before he got the nomination and I never though he was going to make it. I don’t think he comes even close to the hall without his wrestling career keeping his name active.
I need lot bigger profile from a 2/2 player on high profile team. This guy wasn’t even the all decade pick despite being on arguably the most famous super bowl winning team ever, and playing the entire decade.
BTW for what ever it is worth here was DR Z’s all decade team of the 80’s Defensive tackles
DT Jerome Brown Joe Klecko Tim Krumrie
DT Dan Hampton Randy White Gary (Big Hands) Johnson
no McMichael
Paul a (rose) character clause by any other name.
Yt: would you support Gary Johnson as a senior nominee
yt…I think we are mixed up the idea of a character clause…facts are that the Hall does not have one, voters are specifically instructed they can not consider off the field aspects of a candidate (and apparently Hall President had to intercede during the Jan 17th Zoom election meeting to remind voters of that)….with reality that some voters went ahead and voted against Parker (and some raised the racist claim during the debate)..either voters follow the Hall’s instruction and procedures or face the Hall removing them..personally for me, going forward any voter raising off the field issues in the discussion should subsequently be removed as a voter.
Robert
I don’t way too many seniors with better records, though if he was the senior nominee I would not Buddy Parker him.
If we are looking to induct Walsh era 49ers Craig is my top pick, if we are looking for a senior DT I prefer Roger Brown
Paul (if you don’t read this whole thing at least read the quotes after the link)
Fact is leaving character aside there is zero chance that Jim Tyrer and Darren Sharper are not currently in the hall, that means for certain crimes there clearly was a character clause for years (and in Sharper’s case it seems it is the hall’s who stopped his nomination, not the voters). And now we find out that Buddy Parker may have also been blackballed by an unofficial character clause. Reality is if a single voter (regardless of whether or not it is against the official rules) stops someone from making the hall due to character, that means in reality (regardless of any spin) that character is relevant for the hall process. And if the hall doesn’t stop it, if it knows about it, that means that hall truly allows character to matter (even if it does not sanction it) , even if officially they don’t. If the hall takes steps to remove a rapist who is otherwise worthy of the hall than character matters to the hall at least for more egregious cases.
Paul despite your twisting yourself into a pretzel to try and pretend that people actually follow the official rules that ban a character clause, but there has been a character clause for decades for the hall. Go back and check articles where people were afraid that LT was going to be denied the hall due to character. If Ray Lewis, LT were not “drop the mike” hall of famers, they both would have been hurt, and in Lewis’s case might never have made it. (LT likely would have made in the short time between drugs use no longer being seen as that bad and his new charge of statutory rape)
read former hall president John Bankert very well “However, in the STRICTEST sense, that SHOULD not count against his contributions on the field”
That means that character in truth does matter for the hall and it always has, and the hall once officially recognized the fact.
Right now the character clause that is in practice happening in the real process, basically allows any crime only if you are a drop the mike hall of famer, if you are not Ray Lewis or LT, non football stuff matters and the more borderline you are the more it matters. Paul if let’s say OJ first became eligible in 96 think he makes the hall?
You might like the hall ignoring the rules and banning Sharper without changing the rules, but the same two facedness that allows stops Sharper and Tyrer from making the hall despite their belonging according to the official rules (murder and rape have nothing to do with football), allows the same process to likely have stopped Parker who you want in. This is why I said very clearly the hall must clarify their rules and not break them for results they agree with. They have the ability to make the rules actually hold, but it is very hard to tell a voter not use his own moral judgment that Parker doesn’t belong when the hall itself ignores the rules and considers off the field stuff. Both you and I might not agree that racism is worse than rape, but to many people in America today racism is the worst crime in the world, and murderers and rapists are not as bad as segregationists. I would be shocked if there was not one reporter in the room who did not view racism as worse than murder.
I guess the one good thing about this is maybe a pre 60’s senior who does not have race as an issue, might get through. Question is how many are modernists and how many are “anti racist”.
BTW not convinced that Parker was a racist at all, for example if THEORETICALLY Bobby Layne or Doak Walker who were also both from Texas, were racist and told Layne that they refuse to play with a black player (they then make an exception for Johnson giving him the superstar treatment) . If Parker was 100% sure they would not play he would have to be a fool to ignore them. (keep in mind that one of the owners of the team Walter Briggs also owned the Tigers who didn’t integrate until 58).
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1998/10/20/former-nfl-star-arrested/
“There is no mention of any kind of personal problems or conduct of an individual up for consideration,” John Bankert, executive director of the Hall of Fame, said from Canton, Ohio. “That’s not to say that won’t be a consideration as the national board of selectors looks at this terrific athlete. However, in the strictest sense, that should not count against his contributions on the field.”
A 36-member committee of pro football writers and broadcasters will select the 1999 inductees Jan. 30 in Miami, the day before the Super Bowl. A candidate needs 80 percent approval (29 votes) for election.
Three offered divergent opinions:
Furman Bisher, Atlanta Journal-Constitution: “As far as I’m concerned, character’s involved. . . . It’s pretty hard for me to see a man like that in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.”
Jerry Green, Detroit News: “If he’s found guilty, I think I’d make him wait. I would abstain until he’s clean. . . . I think Lawrence Taylor belongs (in the hall) but I hate to see him doing idiotic things.”
Ira Miller, San Francisco Chronicle: “Character’s an issue, but I don’t think it’s the kind of thing that would weigh that heavily. It’s past his playing career and it has no impact at all on pro football. . . . I mean, we’ve got one murderer in there now.”
_ Times staff writer Mike Brassfield and researchers Barbara Oliver and Constance Humberg contributed to this report.
Paul your position about the character clause is possibly why Parker failed to get elected. You said a few months ago that not amending the charterer clause stops the Barry Bonds like issues from entering the football hall discussion, a few months later and you are proven wrong big time. The no character clause needs to be amended and clarified.
Theoretically speaking a voter who nominated Sharper for the hall because Sharper according to the actual rules of the hall belongs. He sees that Sharper is not nominated and President Porter tells him we don’t give a damn about the rules, Sharper’s despicable off the field issue bans him from the hall. Now this voter is thinks “systematic racism” is equal to or worse than rape, and is convinced that Buddy Parker was a racist who stopped integration of the Lions. All said and done, football integration has much more football hall of fame relevancy, than raping someone (and someone, and someone etc) does according to the rules of eligibility. Why should that voter now care what President Porter says?
the no character clause does not need to be amended-the Hall needs to insist voters follow the rules and any voter publicly or during election meeting raising off the field issues needs to lose their vote.
voters don’t select or elect the nominees-they can make recommendations, ask names to be added (just like anyone can), PFHOF has full authority to finalize list of nominees to appear on the ballot-hence Sharper will never appear as a nominee because Hall will and has authority to keep him off-its their list of nominees.
voters role is to vote on semi-finalists, finalists and to elect PFHOFs based on the ballots provided to them..the rules that are provided to the voters when it comes to considering, discussing and voting on candidates on a ballot do not allow them to consider off the field issues.
let me repeat this again…voters have no control or authority over the initial list of preliminary candidates.Hall sets that list, they choose who appears and who does not. the voters role and responsibility starts when presented a ballot and asked to vote for semi-finalist, finalist and final election-that is where voters can not consider off the field/character. In past have they? yes, have some voters made public comments or discussion regarding character and other off field issues during election meeting, yes…were they held accountable for doing so in violation of the rules of voting, NO…but 2024 election mess clearly shows Hall Board needs remind voters of the rules, their role and responsibilities and remove any voter who will not follow them.
Powell had a case (as presented by senior committee, and stated publicly) built in part on his off the field involvement in civil rights activism-outstanding and valuable efforts….but should have never been part of his case
Voters considering off the field issues/character cost Porter his election—should never have been case, voters ignoring rules or applying a character clause was wrong–he would have been elected otherwise–Hall needs to send a message here, remove those voters from the committee.
Do what they should have done in past-enforce their rules and insist voters follow them. I don’t care what voters may have suggested in past about LT or Ray Lewis-which was wrong, and should not have been factor, for fortunately for Hall they dodged the PR mess that would have resulted as they were both elected..but bit them with TO and now with Parker. Hall President, staff and Board are not the same as 5 yrs ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago when these actions or comments by voters got a pass….I don’t care about the past, lets address the here and how, Hall Board needs to get the voters in line, these are rules you must follow when submitting a ballot and considering a candidate-otherwise your service is not longer required.
Lets take the Parker mess and turn it into a change for the positive, insist the Hall no longer let voters – appointed by them – run and ruin this process and decent deserving candidates and their families with this appalling treatment.
(plus I hope Darren Sharper dies a painful death one day and rots in hell for all eternity)
That is enough
Come on guys stop arguing this is a place to discuss not argue
We’re all upset that Buddy Parker and Art Powell didn’t make it
Character clause or not they still got rejected because a lot of voters don’t know who they are because they coached and played a long time ago
Can’t we all just get along
we can all agree that the voters on the full committee who raised character and subtle claims of racism again Parker were wrong..stop blaming the Hall, and Porter, rules or process or procedures.. …. instead direct our anger and frustration at those stupid uninformed voters who need to just focus on the playing/coaching resume, become educated about the history of the game and leave all the other crap out of the discussion
I am not upset or looking to argue with anyone on here…but pissed at the voters, frankly hope the Hall removes any who expressed disinterest or lack of knowledge of the game pre 1990 during the election meeting and insisted on bringing up any off field crap.
If the hall ignores it’s own rules and excludes sharper, dont expect the voters to keep the rules more than the hall itself. While banning voters who voice their breaking the rules is a possibility, expect voters who understand that the hall itself considers off the field stuff in banning players, will take matters into their own hands and just not be honest about it.
Let’s say something happens before the next election that makes jason taylor, not worthy of the hall in the eyes of some voters. You think if the hall takes away a vote before next year. You think they will be honest and say what ever off the field reason or they will give a phoney football reason.
Alex Karras was kept out of the hall for decades partly because he was seen by some as not football worthy and partly due to gambling. He gets in through a special committee at the same time the nfl reversed decades of attitude towards gambling. In short karras until times changed was also blackballed. If the hall started banning voters who said gambling they may switch to say he only made 4 pro bowls in a league that was watered down due to the afl regardless of their views on karras actual football resume.
Parents who eat cookies before dinner will not get their kids not to regardless of punishment.
Remember most character issues are not going to be used successfully on the drop the mike players to kill their chances. Theoretically tom brady murders someone before his election he is a heck of a lot more likely to get in than if a 10 time all pro Center committed the same crime.
DIFFERENT POINT
I saw that LT only made the hall because green changed his vote from a no to an abstain. Does the hall still allow that in which case it might be easier to deal with seniors by having those who feel they dont know enough about parker to abstain themselves?
Paul are you sure about that at the preliminary level? What if Sharper or Tyrer were write-in votes from the fans themselves? Would those votes be ignored?
Is their any transparency in who decides for the HOF at the preliminary level?
If like you say, there is no unofficial character clause, then the HOF simply has to allow Tyrer, Sharper and Parker to get elected but its simple:
They dont want a public-relations black eye …
Yes I know for fact that Hall has filtered out nominations from fans – had conversations in recent years about that with PFHOF staff, the Hall, voters or fans sets the preliminary list.
Again I think two different aspects are being mixed here – Hall sets the preliminary list they decide who is on it- they run the show, it’s their Hall, their decision. Voters get to elect PFHOFers but must follow rules given to them for the steps of elections and ballots that when voting on candidates they can’t consider off field issues. The Hall doesn’t need to let Sharper or Tyrer appear on ballot- they run the Hall. Voters needs to consider every candidate on ballot solely for on the field and that includes Parker.
Thank you
And in recent years I have had direct conversations with voters and Hall staff over the process of nominating candidate and the voting steps
Agreed Andy P can we just get along and move on
Sounds like a good debate. I think you explained it well Paul. Even I understood. LOL Yes it’s too bad some of the voters don’t adhere to the Hall’s rules once the Hall has made a decision who the participants will be for election. Those members should be reprimanded. It really muddies up the process. And it’s not fair to the players or contributors. I hope the Hall will crack down. Some views were a sign of the times. I don’t think we should delve into that part of history to determine eligibility. It seems many in our society want to relitigate great men of the past pointing to possible bad behavior over color. I don’t think it’s fair to measure people to our more recent ideas. I’m not for taking George Washington off Mount Rushmore and I’m not for saying Parker was a bad Head Coach who doesn’t deserve to be in the HOF because of a possible character flaw.
Plus in the case of Parker there is no evidence that he was a racist- unfortunately he coaches in era when many organizations and owners in the league were racist but Parker was not
Honest op: I think with better research and a better of understanding of the times i think powell is the most likley to get another look in the near future unless some other wr’s pass him in the queue
Sterling Sharpe will probably be the next WR to be nominated.
I think he has very good chance..but 2x final six senior finalist Roger Craig likely has best chances..as to the final two slots the question is whether the voters will respect and follow the queue or will one or two voters press their “guy” to jump from nowhere to election by making side deals with other voters on the seniors committee (“if you two vote for our guy Powell, we will give our two votes to your guy, McMichael”) as was case in 2024
agreed paul we could see another player jump out of nowhere if you had to pick a player who would it be
Pick my top senior? Figuring no pre 1960 candidates will be considered – I would go Craig
Complete surprise senior pick? Clay Matthews Jr
What about WR Otis Taylor G 130 AV 95 Rec 410 Yds 7306 Y/R 17.8 TD’s 57 ?
I always thought since Bob Hayes was inducted Taylor would get his due. Hayes 132 AV 98 Rec 371 Yds 7414 Y/R 20.0 TD’s 71
Both WR’s had 2/3 profiles with 1 Super Bowl win. In addition Taylor was a part of 2 AFL championships and UPI AFC MVP in 1971.
Always thought of AFL players, especially the WRs, that Taylor had a very strong case. But now with Powell rejected, seems hard to believe the senior committee (with so many other strong candidates to consider) would bring him to full committee as their finalist-sad but seems true.
Another debate besides Eli Manning, will be whether Marshawn Lynch will be elected to the HOF? These younger voters might put him in first ballot, haha … I feel he is deserving but needs to wait awhile.
in regards to Otis Taylor I have trouble supporting a receiver who was never in the top 10 in career receptions, receiving yards or touchdowns. In regards to extreme peaks like Megatron or even more so Sterling Sharpe I make exceptions but Taylor’s career numbers are not even close to hall of fame worthy, and he don’t come close to those 2 at their peak, and as opposed to them had one of the most accurate passers ever throw to him.
I think people just like very good but not great receivers from much beloved teams. It’s no coincidence that by far the 3 worst hall of fame receivers are Stallworth, Swann and Pearson. Who would if they were unlucky enough to have played for the falcons instead, would be lucky to get a nomination to the senior pool.
Its hard for Otis Taylor to accrue big numbers when youre playing for a smash-mouth running team. He had no one helping as well, as Pitts and Wright barely caught passes to take away double coverage on him. The best Chiefs receiver opposite of Taylor was Chris Burford, who retired after the 1967 season. Injuries to Dawson also hurt Taylor’s numbers.
Marshawn Lynch won’t be first ballot-likely going to wait until after AP and Gore are elected-but there is much that is appealing to current voters regarding his resume
Regular season career stats are only a part of a players PFHOF resume – Stallworth, Swann and Pearson have post season stats and honors (all pro and all decade) which are also big part of the conversation around their respective cases. It only fair in discussing players case to consider the complete resume.
Gore will stir plenty of debate as well but is deserving, due to longevity and toughness overcoming knee injuries in college. He wont be first ballot though … Peterson will.
Speaking of sterling Sharpe what’s our opinion on him deserving of a senior spot
If we exclude pre 1960 seniors – Sharpe is in my top 5 so very deserving in my view
i concur 100% he is in my top 5 of deserving seniors not including pre 1960 players, question is if we include pre 1960’s players where would you put sharpe
Somewhere around 8th I think
I grew up in Wisconsin back in the 1980s and 1990s. Sterling Sharpe is the best Wide Receiver from his era not in the Hall of Fame. I thought Jerry Rice was the only Wide Receiver better than Sterling Sharpe in the era Sharpe played in. He was a dominating Wide Receiver in a short career.
He’s more than Hall of Fame worthy. If it wasn’t for his neck injury, he wouldn’t been inducted already. Sharpe led the lead in receptions multiple times, led league in Touchdown receptions multiple times and led league in receiving yards. The argument for Sterling Sharpe is Gale Sayers, Terrell Davis, Patrick Willis, and Tony Boselli are inducted into Canton and there is no reason for Sterling Sharpe not inducted into Canton as a result.
Everyone agrees Sharpe is deserving and will get elected but older voters who know Packers history would still like Dilweg and Lewellen to finally be voted in as well but its doubtful to happen. Another Packer, Isbell, attracts voter attention as well and the competition with other candidates, keeps Sharpe from getting enough to pull through. With senior numbers still an uncertainty beyond 2025, this upcoming summer voting process will be scrutinized because any nominated candidate could be shot down by late, next January.
Even those older voters (and are on the senior committee) can’t even get Dilweg or any other pre 1960 selected as senior finalists-they are all doomed to never be elected under current rules and process. Sharpe was finalist in 2023 and 2024-Isbell was not in 2024 so I think as far as the Packers seniors go there is a path to election for Sharpe. If the committee selects any pre 1960 candidate for class of 2025 finalist they do risk full committee not electing them…my guess is that they go safe with some combination of KAnderson, Craig, Sharpe,Jacoby, ALewis -and if there is a surprise for the 3rd seniors slot it will come from post 1970s candidate from 2024 semi-finalist round in Lester Hayes, Jim Marshall or Clay Matthews Jr. And give outside chance to Meador (1960s) or Baughan (played in 1960s)
I hope what happened to Art Powell doesn’t happen to Tommy Nobis Maxie Baughn Eddie Meador etc
I think under current rules and process every pre 1960 candidate is doomed and doubt senior committee selects any of them as finalists
pauls actually right on 8 of my senior 2025 Finalists ,
Ken Anderson
Roger Craig
Lester Hayes
Joe Jacoby
Albert Lewis
Jim Marshall
Clay Matthews
Sterling Sharpe
My other four finalists would be Bobby Boyd LC Greenwood Bob Kuechenberg Everson Walls
my top seniors (again, not even going to bother adding Wistert, Dilweg, Emerson)
1. WR Sterling Sharpe (F2023-F6,F2024)
2. RB Roger Craig (F2024-F6)
3. LB Maxie Baughan(F2023,F2024)
4. CB/S Eddie Meador (F2023,F2024-F6)
5. QB Ken Anderson (F2023,F2024-F6)
6. G Bob Kuechenberg (F2023-F6)
7. CB Albert Lewis (F2024)
8. LB Tommy Nobis (F2023)
9. OT Joe Jacoby (F2024)
10. CB Lester Hayes
And actually any combination of three from these ten would be fine for me (if voters have no interest in pre 1960 players).
I am not a huge advocator for Jim Marshall or Clay Matthews Jr-they are much further down on my top 25 seniors list. Not saying they are not deserving to lack a resume but for me they are both a step down from my top 10 list.
But we are clearly in a senior selection process by which 1 or even 2 slots are being filled by a pet project of a few voters pressing the others to vote for them-likely in exchange for agreement for the others to vote for their finalist as well–in a quid pro quo arrangement—clearly how McMicheals and Powell jumped from no where to selection as 2024 senior finalists..and if nothing chances such a surprising selection of one or more seniors in 2025 is likely again…just watch for any surprising names among the 12 seniors considered for 2025 election.
I’ll add this paul I have Joey browner as the best viking senior candidate in terms of browns its either schafrath or collins
I think I know why Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen and Cecil Isbell weren’t elected the first years of the Hall of Fame it’s likely voters were suffering from Packers fatigue
That would be my guess too Andy
How about bobby Boyd paul
I have him in my 11-15 grouping
Thanks for the clarification paul Bobby Boyd might be my pet project
Good debate. I’ve taken a break from posting on the HOF because I’ve wanted to digest the 2024 vote before sharing my views. I also was turned off by the level of negativity among the usual public voices (including the Talk of Fame guys, Rick Gosselin, etc.). After some contemplation, I’ve come to understand (but not completely agree) with this the results. I also have some unanswered questions. But in the end, as explained below, I think the process is healthier than it has been and is heading in the right direction. Let’s all extend a little grace to each other and the process.
First, the modern selections:
Peppers was a clear first ballot hall of fame guy, particularly for this group of voters. By that, I mean he was a physical freak who could at times make spectacular plays with his outrageous athletic ability. To my eyes, this is the number one characteristic valued by today’s board of electors (and frankly most fans). It also helps that Peppers had wonderful counting stats, even though he never had a monster season and probably could never have been called the best player at his position. Therefore, he is actually something of an unusual first ballot guy. Still an obviously positive selection.
Judged from the same prism, it makes sense that Andre Johnson was the first of the 3 wide receivers selected (or 6 if you count Steve Smith, Ward, and Boldin). As I’ve said many times, I would have picked Holt, who had the longer peak, has been widely underrated, and frankly waited too long. That said, there is no doubt that Andre Johnson once held my household’s “best WR on Earth” title (2008-09) and clearly belongs in the Hall. He was just a tick below Calvin Johnson as a physical specimen and probably a better route runner and complete WR. Wonderful selection.
Willis was another wonderful selection that many of us predicted would make the Hall this year. He was forced to wait (perhaps too long) because his career was cut short, but there is no doubt in my mind he is one of the top 5-10 best ILB in NFL history. Glad he was inducted. And it made sense to get Willis inducted this year before Kuechly is added to the ballot next year. To allude to something Brian Wolf said about others, Kuechly is perhaps slightly overrated because of the color of his skin. In short, Willis and Kuechly had almost exactly the same career: Games (118 to 112 Kuechly), INTs (18 to 8 Kuechly), Sacks (12.5 to 20.5 Willis), Solo Tackles (690 to 733 Willis), FF (7 to 16 Willis), FR (9 to 5 Kuechly), Pro Bowls (7 each), All Pros (7 to 6 Kuechly), but Kuechly has the only AP DPoY. That said, I doubt Kuechly (perhaps because of his being white) waits anywhere near as long as Willis.
I’m an unabashed Freeney fan, and am glad that he got elected. As I noted above, I felt that he would begin his ascent this year, but I didn’t expect him to jump Jared Allen. He undoubtedly played in the perfect system for his skill set (see QB, get QB), but that shouldn’t be held against him. Afterall, the same can be said of Marshall Faulk (good RB in Indy, otherworldly in St. Louis). He wasn’t really a one-dimensional player as much as he was a player who was largely asked to do one thing. And it allowed his teams to win a ton of games. Couple additional points: First, I see the superficial comparison to John Abraham, but it is largely a product of numbers. For me, based on the “eye test,” Freeney was the far superior player. Second, I am concerned, however, that the room was clearly biased toward Freeney over Jared Allen, given that both his coach (Dungy) and GM (Polian) are voters. If nothing else, this is an appearance of impropriety that should be addressed.
Finally, Hester. I don’t agree with the argument that because he was the best returner (really punt returner) he should get in the Hall. First, before the expansion of rosters in the mid-1970s, he couldn’t have even made an NFL team. Also, there are many, many NFL players who would have been Hester’s equal or better as a returner if they would have been given the opportunity—Darrell Green and Deion Sanders for sure. But those players starting rolls were simply far more important than a couple returns a game. Moreover, it is undoubtedly true that each of the 10 unelected finalists and 10 more unelected semifinalists contributed more over their careers to their teams’ winning of games than Hester did for his teams. And frankly, it probably isn’t even close. All of that said, Hester IS the best punt returner I’ve ever seen (never saw Sayers), and I’m ok with (or at least understand) that making him a HOFer. But that needs to remain a very high bar for future candidates.
One final point: Gates is obviously a HOFer, almost certainly being elected next year or the year after. I’m shocked, however, by all the voters and members of this community who act like his exclusion this year was a travesty. If anything, the board acted exactly like we have all advocated: applying a high bar for first ballot guys allowing others to be elected first. Gonzalez could be argued to be the best TE in history (personally, I think it is either Mackey or Gronk), and that is why he was a first ballot guy (first ever for a TE). Gates was a wonderful player, but no one has argued he was the best TE in history. A short wait is okay, especially if it helped break up the WR and DE logjams or ended the Hester debate. At times it seems like some of the voters—and I’m especially thinking of Rick Gosselin who now sounds like he expects the HOF to be his personal fiefdom—just want to complain. After years of complaining about the “latest is the greatest” trend, he actually complained loudly about Gates being excluded. We can’t have our cake and eat it too.
Now the Seniors/Contributor candidates:
Gradishar was a slam dunk. Long deserving. Glad he got elected.
McMichael was far from a slam dunk. I remember him being a Madden favorite. He was a beast to move. I suspect that Brian Wolf’s comment about his race has some merit, but he was also about as famous as a DT could be in those days (along with the Fridge). He played on a very high-profile team. He was an engaging personality. And he got to the quarterback A LOT. And he did all of those things for a LONG time. If this makes him a borderline HOF, I’m ok with it. Afterall, I have my own borderline cases that I strongly support—Jacoby, Mecklenburg, Cherry, etc.
It is also certainly true that McMichael had a campaign behind him, and that his ALS probably played a role. That said, this has ALWAYS been the case when it comes to the seniors committee. The “abyss” is not so much because of the number of players in it (I’m a big hall guy, but there still aren’t really 30 “no doubt” senior candidates), but because of the process’s utter randomness. Someone like Turney should do some interviews and find out who were the “near” misses that never get discussed today. We know of one: Roger Brown. In an old Talk of Fame podcast, a retired elector noted that Brown tied one year for the senior candidate slot, and after some additional discussion, the person he tied with got the nomination (sorry, can’t remember who it was). Think about that. He was one vote away from being a likely HOFer, and now (nearly) no one talks about him (shout out to YT who mentioned him above). I believe this was the real impetus behind Porter pushing for the multiple rounds of Seniors voting. I think he wanted pressure to build so that we got more Gradishars, Robinsons, Kramers, Tingelhoffs and less … well I’ll let you pick your least favorite senior candidates. That said, I don’t think it has worked yet, but I remain hopeful that each year will help. That said, nothing can (or could) explain the treatment of poor Bob Kuechenberg.
Powell is tough for a lot of reasons. Simply put, he was a challenging candidate that I’m at least glad got to have his case hear. His TD total is truly amazing. I thought it was going to get him in the HOF, which follows a recent trend of voters over emphasizing a single stat (i.e., Riley’s INT total, Klecko’s “all pro at three positions,” etc.). I also believe that his fight for racial justice IS an “on field contribution” and rightly should be considered in his candidacy. Afterall, without Powell’s efforts, there would be a lot different make-up of the people “on the field.” Finally, the argument that Powell is a precursory to Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, and Julio Jones is fair. He was abnormally big for his era, and that likely contributed to his ridiculous TD total. It took me some time, but I definitely came around to his candidacy. Going into the vote, I even thought that he was a more worthy HOFer than McMichael. For this reason, I was upset like many of the rest of you after the announcement.
That said, the criticism of the early AFL is valid. It was an inferior league, and the people who try to argue otherwise aren’t being honest. Of course, there were great players—Alworth, Mix, Dawson—and great teams—the ‘63 Chargers—but this doesn’t mean that the leagues were on equal footing or that there should be an equal number of HOFers from each league. The argument—used by Clark Judge for instance—that because Alworth and Willie Brown played in the AFL, then the league was on equal footing with the NFL is silly. Was the USFL the equal of the NFL just because Jim Kelly, Gary Zimmerman, Reggie White, Steve Young, and Sam Mills (all HOFers) played in the league? Of course not.
Moreover, if anything, the HOF voters have already overemphasized this period and glorified the so-called “golden era” of football. If Art Powell had made the HOF, there would have had 11 HOF WRs per year from 1965-1968, which would be the most HOF WRs in any era. No one can seriously believe that the pass catchers from 1965-68 (i.e., Berry, McDonald, Maynard, Mitchell, Alsworth, Taylor, Warfield, Bilentnikoff, Hayes, and (if elected) Powell) were the best era ever for WRs (with all due respect to Berry, Alsworth, and Warfield who should be on any list of candidates for the top 10 WRs).
Finally, on a broader point, here are the number of active HOFers per year for the 1960s and early 1970s: 54 (1960), 61 (1961), 64 (1962), 65 (1963), 71 (1964), 71 (1965), 70 (1966), 74 (1967—including 10 rookies!), 74 (1968), 79 (1969), 78 (1970), 83 (1971—most for any year), 79 (1972), 77 (1973), 77 (1974). By 1988, the number is only 51 (or 4.05% of the league, the lowest percentage of the pre-modern candidate era since 1942). Now admittedly, the 1980s haven’t had an influx of seniors yet, but that means there are approximately 25 HOFers missing from the 1980s to get to the same levels as the 1960s and early 1970s.
All of this is to say that the voters’ decision to exclude Powell has some justification. They aren’t necessarily ignorant of the game’s history as many have characterized them. They also don’t necessarily have a bias against older players. Instead, perhaps they did their homework, had legitimate questions, and those questions weren’t answered in the selection meeting. If anything is to be blamed for Powell missing the hall, it is his presenter and his other supporters not being prepared to address the legitimate questions and skepticism of the panel. Look, we want the HOF to be exclusive (even big hall guys like me). The full panel is not a rubber stamp, which is appropriate given all of the complaints followers of the HOF process have with the senior committee in the first place. This actually might be a step in the right direction, as it might make the committee stop taking on pet projects and just pick the best actual candidates—regardless of position, era, franchise, etc. And while this is not going to be a popular opinion on this board, it is also time to move beyond the 1960s and early 1970s. Well over 8% of the leagues’ roster spots in 1964 were filled with HOFers! This is really high, although not the all time high which occurred in 1958 when the percentage was 13.33%–i.e., 56 HOFers played in 1958 on 12 teams each with 35 roster spots. In short, the history of the pre-modern era has been well respected and honored in the Hall.
However, I still feel bad for Art Powell and his family. Once nominated, I think he should have been a HOFer, but I don’t think the voters are really to blame for being skeptical and asking hard questions.
Parker was another challenging candidate, just as he was a challenging person in real life. I know about his record against Paul Brown, and it is impressive. I also understand that he is undoubtedly a better candidate than Cowher, Jimmy Johnson, Flores, or Vermeil (although not as good as Coryell, at least for me). From this perspective, he should be a HOF coach.
However, racism is NOT an off-the-field issue as it dramatically impacts what happens on the field. It was more than fair to ask questions about this topic. It was also fair to ask questions about the circumstances that led him to leave the Cardinals, Lions, and Steelers as again these issues dramatically impacted what happened on the field. I simply do not know enough about either of these issues to fairly judge Parker’s candidacy, but I do want these issues to be judged. If it could be determined that Parker deliberately refused to employ black players and abandoned his teams on the eve of their seasons for spite, I can understand that he would be judged as lacking the qualifications for the HOF. On the other hand, if it was determined that Parker readily employed black players—especially as he had a personal awakening along with much of the rest of the country during the civil rights movement—and there were extenuating circumstances that explained his abrupt resignations (or if his qualifications were so overwhelming that these resignations are outweighed), then he should be a HOFer. It is clear that this debate occurred. The board discussed his candidacy for over an hour. This is the exact process we all want. I don’t have the information that those board members have. I wasn’t in the discussion and didn’t hear the pros and cons. As such, I’m going to defer to the board.
One argument, however, that is not appropriate is that the electors in the past judged him and found him lacking. As I’ve explained in the past, the standard for a HOF coach has dropped dramatically since the coach committee was separated from the players. None of the coaches that have been elected since Dungy would have been elected under the prior system. Now one can argue that the only standard was too high. But we need to admit that the standard has been decreased and therefore older candidates need to be fairly judged under the now modified standard. As noted above, Parker has a better win/loss record, championships, and history of innovations (two minute offense and new defensive alignments) than most of the coaches who have been elected under the now lower bar for induction.
But, I’ll reiterate, I’m not convinced that the reasons raised against his candidacy were either wrong (or for that matter correct) or inappropriate. In fact, while we’ve all heard that the Board was directed not to consider “off the field” issues, I haven’t actually heard it was during the debate of Parker (rather than Powell or some other candidate, although this third option seems unlikely). To me, neither Parker’s potential racism and potential abandonment of his teams nor Powell’s social advocacy are strictly “off the field” issues. Therefore, I think they were fair issues to be discussed. Just as TO’s disruptive antics were fair to be discussed.
Finally, I’m a little hesitant to wade into the character clause issues debated by Paul and YT. Simply put, I don’t think it is a problem either way. No system involving humans will ever be perfect. But humans making decisions en mass do tend to come to appropriate results. This is the theory behind juries, elections, etc. Using this as a guide, I’ll simply say the voters usually get it right, and let’s provide them with a little more grace—with regard to who gets in each year and over many years. The process is flawed, but it gets a lot right. In fact, it gets way more right than wrong. I know we want to discuss and focus about the edges and the borderline, but sometimes I like to step back and look at the bigger picture. This class is great. I love Willis and Andre Johnson getting in. I love Holt, Jared Allen, and Gates being poised for future years. Hell, I love Eric Allen and Darren Woodson finally getting discussed. I even love the spirited debate about Parker and Powell.
And I wouldn’t assume the worst of the voters. We know they take their responsibilities seriously. They do the best they can even if we don’t always agree year to year. Again, let’s all give them and each other a little more grace. Let’s disagree without being disagreeable, which frankly us zoneblitz posters normally do an excellent job of doing.
For myself, I’m closing the book on the 2024 HOF selection process and turning to 2025 when I’ll again be pulling for Holt and hoping Marshawn Lynch makes a beast quake like run into the final 15 (perhaps a bit optimistic, but we’ll see).
Oh, and I’m solidly on the Eli Manning is not a HOFer side of the debate (but strongly in favor of Rivers when he comes up in a couple years). I think this one will last a few years :)
We have over 60 years of history that revealed no evidence that Parker was a racist (including numerous reports and news stories) so why is it that several prominent voters have publicly raised questions as to why is was mentioned by a few voters and apparently made as a negative issue against his case-within just a one hour on legacy of a coach finalist nominated by that committee after considering 25 nominees and lengthy through research and debates by those coach contributor committee members? Including well researched presentations by Judge and PaulK who spent hours preparing and stunned to see unsupported allegations dropped into conversation.
Why? We may never know but what we all know is that it’s wrong and Hall needs to address the travesty so a candidate and their family plus the subcommittee members are never again treated in such a terrible and disrespectful manner.
It was wrong and should not be sugarcoated, suggest anything about it was normal and justified, nor should it be forgotten and needs to be addressed by the Hall with changes to the process and voters serving on the committee – and I look forward to the ramifications.
question for the group; if you had to induct 1 of these o linemen who would would induct and why Budde Hinton Jacoby Kenn Kuechenberg Sweeney, Notice i didnt put in Jim Tyrer for very obivious reasons
keuch
As a Washington fan, I want Jacoby, who was the best of the Hogs (with all due respect to Grimm). That said, I think Kuechenberg has gotten a raw deal and that should be corrected. Sweeney and Kenn have great cases too. Also a supported of Kunz and Ed White, neither of whom were on Robert’s list.
Justin just to be 100% clear i do support both kunz and white, bigger fan of white though
I think both Jacoby and BobK are deserving and both have gotten a raw deal repeatedly over the years from the voters for reasons which are completely baffling for me-in fact perhaps the most bewildering decisions of any multiple finalists for PFHOF who have not yet been elected
agreed 100% paul like you i think Kuechenberg and Jacoby has gotten raw deals over the years and hopefully they get in soon
Kooch and Jacoby are also my top 2 OL Seniors candidates.
Andy Russell just passed away. A 7x Pro Bowler and big part of the Super Bowl teams in Pittsburgh. His name will now be up there for consideration. Unfortunately once players/coaches pass away ,their candidacy gets heightened. I say unfortunately because they should have been alive to see it happen.
Passing way hasn’t helped Greenwood, Nobis, Baughan – it’s mixed in terms of raising awareness and elevating them in the election process
If they do choose another Steeler it will probably be Greenwood.
Nobis and Baughan had Howley and Gradishar ahead of them but it’ll be interesting to see who they go with the next time the Seniors committee looks at LBs.
There’s two I’d like to see get consideration Bo knows: Bill Bergey and Mike Stratton
Jason Kelce announces his retirement.
Will kelce have a wait when hes eligible I think so
He’ll wait and I hope they elect Jason and Travis in the same Class.
agreed 100% that would be perfect and poetic
Rick Gosselin said on the Eye Test for Two episode about the Class of 2024 finalists that this year could be a clean up year and it was I think next year could be a clean up year too
Rick Gosselin said on the Eye Test for Two episode about the Class of 2024 the selection committee isn’t getting older it’s getting younger he said I just think we’re losing the history of the game
Andy i agree 100% most likley 2025 is another clean up year in terms of modern era inductees, could it be possible we get no first time inductees
25 names will almost certainly be elected from 2025-29.
Jared Allen, Willie Anderson, Antonio Gates, Torry Holt and Darren Woodson were the 6-10 this year if there is a cleanup year in 2025. All five should be among that 25. Time is running out for Woodson (2028) but I think he makes it next year.
That would leave this year’s 11-15 and semi-finalists fighting it out with a deep list of first time 2025-28 eligibles for the other 20 spots until 2029. Some obvious slam dunks are among them including Brady, Fitzgerald and Brees. Some will get elected but are likely to get pushed into the 2030s.
Boknows don’t forget about Gronkowski and Watt
Yes, it is a very deep group from 2025-28 so I just gave a few slam dunk examples rather than list everyone. Big Ben, Adrian Peterson and Adam V will also have yellow jackets by 2029 with Brady, Brees, Gronk, Watt and Larry Fitz.
Agree that 2025 has best opportunity for at least 4 returning finalists to be elected, could be all 5…and gets harder with 2026-2028 elections each have 2 or perhaps 3 first ballot elected…. plus others candidates for eventual election as I count another 10 likely eventual PFHOFs-although some might take 4-5+ years.
Witten should be elected by 2029 as well but probably not first ballot, though he is deserving. Gronk will though …
I think it is time to enter Chris Jones into the HOF conversation. 5x PB,2x AP, 3x SB winner. He just re-signed with the Chiefs. They for sure are a SB contender for next 4+ years as long as Mahomes us healthy. He is also trending upward being an AP last two seasons.
Emergency comment
PFRA is down
PFRA is back
Fletcher Cox retires.
And uncertain PFHOF prospects
worth noting that 2010s all decade, 5x first team all pro DT Kevin Williams can’t even get into semi-finalist round, now I realize Fletcher Cox has a ring and higher media profile, both of which will most certainly help his case and election opportunities, but there are also many other DTs (beyond noted exception of Aaron Donald) who are also waiting or will be. So its very likley Cox has a long and uncertain path to election.
Your not going to believe what I found out
On Episode 93 of the Eye Test for Two Bill Polian says he Bill Belichick Ozzie Newsome and Ron Wolf all members of the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class studied film of the pre 60s players and rated them and concluded that all the players from era that deserve to be in are in so there’s no need to worry about seniors pre 60s
If that doesn’t tell you what happened to Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert in the room I don’t know what does yet they still elected Bobby Dillon Duke Slater Mac Speedie and Ed Sprinkle
Here’s a link
https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/eyetestfortwo?selected=BRCM5684505504
im going to play devils advocate and say i agree with ozzie bill and ron 100% they would know and i wont question what they said
like i said before 2025 seniors will be offense heavy i believe with at least 1 or two of them being an offensive lineman
How much film is there of Lavvie Dilweg?
is there even 5 minutes including smiling for the camera before a game, and shaking hands while running for congress years after his football career?
to answer your question yt im not sure if their is any surviving footage
I dont trust their conclusions … Dilweg and Lewellen dont have alot of film to evaluate playing in the 30s and Ken Crippen and others thought they were worthy. George Allen wrote a book about great players and thought Wistert was just as good playing defense as offense, not to mention blocking for the NFL’s leading rusher at that time!
Emerson blocked for a team that held the season team rushing record before it was broken by the 2019 Ravens … what, over 85 years ago?
does any 20-30’s (early) player belong based on actual film studies?
Unless there is surviving footage of them playing yt the answer is no
And if there is surviving footage of one game, can you judge a hall of famer based on only one game, or worse a newsreel of one game.
My point was there is no way film footage should change anything about Lavvie Dilweg’s career. Numerous clear non hall of famers has one great play in major games (one that might have film coverage the type that might survive till today from the 30’s), and numerous hall of famers had blunders. Film studies alone only work if you have a decent sample size. Assuming there is any footage at all of Dilwig
I agree regarding issue of using (and actually) having film to review pre 1950 players..its not fair as some players have more film than others, and even those with film it is often a game or two or highlight reals..on that limited basis there is no way to evaluate quality of a player and film givens advantage to those with it, and huge disadvantage to many who have none. Frankly it is also why many of the all decade selections for 20s 30s 40s and 50s are questionable, as they were made in 1969 – and in many cases on very little direct knowledge/data/film of players the voters never reported on or saw play. I realize there is no solution to lack of film, just pointing out making definitive assessments that players were not PFHOFers is also not possible and no one should claim otherwise, including historians and current voters.
Aaron Donald just announced his retirement. He is for sure getting in first ballot. I know when you get elected doesn’t necessarily matter,but he is a no brainer. Arguably the best DT ever.
We have our first HOFer from the Class of 2029.
Yep, Donald will be first ballot but I really thought he would challenge Page’s total of 148 sacks at tackle. Too bad because his teammate Kobie Turner has talent as well and I thought both could get 15 sacks apiece next year. Though I feel Lilly is the best overall, Donald was just ahead of Randle and just behind Page as a pass rusher …
Donald, who?
Since all the others have done it here are my predictions for seniors and contributor
Ken Anderson
Roger Craig
Tommy Nobis
Robert Kraft
Andy P ill agree on Anderson Craig and Nobis Kraft im not so sure
Anything is possible with the senior finalists..but suspect Nobis has last chance then many others..Anderson and Craig (along with Sharpe) are solid picks but guessing not three will be elected as literally anyone a recent semi-finalist has potential chance if they have a strong advocate among the 12 voters on the committee..Kraft is also possible for coach-contributor as we know he has been among the top few final candidates considered in recent years, along with MikeH and MikeS.
Right now the senior process is a complete mess..from now until meeting in August, more interested in seeing if Hall decides to wade in with some major improvements
YT Ken Crippen has studied film of Dilweg Emerson and Wistert he used to have scouting reports of them and others on his website I emailed him and he told me that he will be moving them to the Football Learning Academy website and he would like to repackage them to make it easier to update and add new reports
Here’s a couple snippets of his scouting reports on Dilweg Emerson and Wistert from the Football Learning Academy blog
Dilweg
Based on film study, he was a beast on defense. He usually lined up in the seven-technique or nine-technique position. He was extremely quick off the ball and was able to shed blocks easily. That quickness also allowed him to drop into coverage with other ends or backs. His reaction times were very fast and he closed in on plays quickly. On offense, he showed excellent route-running abilities and made quick cuts with excellent footwork.
Emerson
On film, Emerson played well in all three phases of the game. He had a real nose for the football and was in on almost every play. On offense, he was able to get to the second and third levels of the defense. The team ran well to his side. He was quick off the snap and had excellent explosion. A hard hitter. On defense, he could stuff the run and was alert. His motor never stopped. He stopped runs up the middle and was quick enough to get to runs on the outside. He showed good pursuit on plays downfield and was able to quickly disengage from blocks.
Wistert
On film, Wistert showed excellent agility and kept his balance, even on slippery fields (the 1948 NFL Championship Game was definitely a test). He showed excellent instincts and was excellent in all three phases of the game. In run blocking, he got off the snap quickly to engage the defender. Once he released from the defender, he quickly looked for second and third level guys to block. He could pull in either direction and hit the defender with force. He could seal and wall off the defender in any direction to open a hole for the runner. On pass blocking, he showed excellent lateral movement and agility. His head was on a swivel when he was not engaged with a defender. He always looked for a block and made great decisions. He was also quick enough to pick up missed blocks by his teammates. When he played left guard, he showed enough agility to drop back and protect against the rushing right defensive end coming around the outside of the left tackle.
I’ll post a link to the full reports when he posts them on the website
Here’s a link to Football Learning Academy
https://www.football-learning-academy.com/
Robert not sure about Kraft what do you mean his resume says it all he needs no discussion plus someone’s going to have to knock on the door of Rob Gronkowski in 2027 and Tom Brady in 2028 and introduce them at NFL Honors
I’ve got a statement ready that I’m planning to say for when Tom Brady is announced as a Hall of Famer in 2028 at NFL Honors
You can now join your boyhood hero (Joe Montana) your owner (Robert Kraft) and your tight end (Rob Gronkowski)
I’m planning to be in Canton in 2028 when Tom Brady gets inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame I’m going to attend the Gold Jacket Dinner (I’m going to have to get a suit) and the Induction Ceremony I hope to see Robert Kraft with a Gold Jacket
Rick Gosselin said on the Eye Test for Two episode about the Class of 2024 the selection committee isn’t getting older it’s getting younger he said I just think we’re losing the history of the game
Yes Judge, Kaufman, and Peter King have all lamented the same-in their mid to late 60s or older, they (along with several other voters, including those on senior and coach-contributor committees) will begin to retire from the PFHOF selection committee over next several years, leading to turnover of membership and one that will increasingly get younger.
If we think of a new voter being perhaps 20 years into their professional career, they would have started covering game in 2000s- not only will pre 1960s era soon be forgotten (not covered or studied by these new voters) we will quickly see same treatment for 1970s and 1980s candidates. No one to advocate for Ox Emerson, heck no one to advocate for Nobis,…heck no one to advocate for Joe Jacoby. We are at edge for that exact situation which is only going to get worse as each election year passes and we seen changes to the 50 member voting body.
Also many of those old timers, who started covering league in 1970s and 1980s also were historians in sense that many studied history of NFL in the eras that they were not reporting on and also wrote books of former teams and players-current younger voters are not also doing that work due to nature of how sports media is delivered today-less writing and research, more reporting and looking to drop news on social media before their competition-focused on current game not its history.
Time is likely past for pre 1960s candidates, and in next several years same will be for 1970s and 80s…
Paul don’t forget about Dilweg Lewellen Isbell Wistert Baughan Meador Greenwood etc
Also did you see my post about Ken Crippen’s scouting reports on Dilweg Emerson and Wistert
yep all those cases appear to be “dead in the water” under current election process with the current slate of voters..not because they don’t have strong resumes or not deserving but because too many of the voters clearly simply do not care about “ancient” history and are not interested in listening to the cases or taking time and effort to study and learn about history of the game pre 1980s.
unfortunately I don’t hold any hope any will be elected anytime soon if the status quo remains in place
I wouldn’t say greenwood case is dead in the water just yet since a bulk of his career was in the 70s and 80s, i think it’s more along the lines of players prior to 1960 , and as painful as is I’m ok with it
Your ok with it Robert how come
Also did you see my comments about Kraft
I’m more familiar with players who played in the 70s and 80s In terms of kraft id be OK with him as the contributor nominee
Of all the players mentioned in earlier post, Greenwood likely still has a slim chance BUT let’s remember the seniors class of 2024 had 31 semifinalists (was to be 25 but ties were added)….and he was not among those 31…
Agrees 100% he has to at least be one of the semi finalists, question for the page who is the better chiefs senior nom deron cherry or Albert Lewis
I would lean Albert Lewis
Likewise paul I’m a strong supporter of Albert Lewis 100%
Looking Ahead
Bringing up again what BoKnows emphasized with the elections from 2025 – 2029, with many players coming up ahead. I am predicting that these 25 players will make the HOF before the Class Of 2030
They are in order of yearly eligibility, rather than preference …
Predicted HOF Inductees 2025 – 2029
Darren Woodson
Willie Anderson
Rodney Harrison
Torry Holt
Fred Taylor
Hines Ward
Reggie Wayne
Jared Allen
Jahri Evans
Vince Wilfork
Antonio Gates
Luke Kuechly*
Adam Vinatieri
Marshawn Lynch
Terrell Suggs
Drew Brees*
Larry Fitzgerald*
Jason Witten*
Frank Gore
Adrian Peterson*
Rob Gronkowski*
Ben Roethlisberger
Tom Brady*
JJ Watt*
Aaron Donald*
Of course other players might get in as well, while some of these will continue to wait but we will see.
*Deserved or Probable First Ballot Selection
I did think about adding Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas from the Legion Of Boom to the list but not sure they will get elected by the Class Of 2029. Right now Bobby Wagner has not signed with a new team, so if he retires, he will be first ballot in 2029 but I am hoping the Cowboys or Titans sign him …
Another guess is will Wilfork get in before 2029? He is more involved in the voting process than Kevin Williams. Can Pouncey get in at center before Mangold? I dont believe a center will make it till 2030 or 2031 with Kelce …
Bobby Wagner signed with Washington.
I think the years after next year could be clean up years too
Brian Wolf
I agree with most of the inductees except Rodney Harrison Fred Taylor Hines Ward and Vince Wilfork
What about seniors
I have no idea on the seniors Andy P …
I still hope three are elected next January.
Thanks BoKnows …
my seniors to watch for 2025: Ken Anderson Roger Craig Joe Jacoby Bob Kuechenberg Albert Lewis Sterling Sharpe
I think that list of 2025-2029 looks pretty good and complete, always could be a few that wait longer than 2029 but given current semi-finalists, and others to join next 5 years plus how voters view candidates and typical voting trends, its likely a strong list of likely elected.
Given what we have seen in last two senior elections, good luck to anyone trying to predict all three-once we see the 25+ semi-finalists this July those three could literally be anyone on that list….and there are a few I am not a strong supporter of, but reality is that they will be elected as majority of semi-finalists will be and close to 100% of player who once become finalists eventually get elected.
As to players eligible but not yet make semi-finalists round, and with their modern eligibility ending by 2029….their chances at election as modern candidates is increasingly very slim and uncertain. Richmond Webb for example (last year as modern-2027), if he is not a semi-finalist in 2025 his chances as modern elected are very unlikely.
And it would be an interesting exercise to go back to start of the 2021 election cycle and look at the list of modern semi-finalists that year plus first ballot additions 2021-2024 and now see if such a list from 2021 predicting the 20 moderns to be elected turned out to be true by 2024 election.
I took this initial crack at assessing outcomes for 2021-2024 elections, starting with 2021 semi-finalists and adding 1st ballot candidates added for 2022-24 elections (E=elected, F-still finalist, SF-still finalist, X- not elected as modern), note I did not include players who joined semi-finalist for first time, for example Albert Lewis), so this is based on those semi-finalists in 2021 and 1st ballot additions for 2022-2024 who in 2021 we would have predicted to appear on ballot and elected:
Class of 2021 semi-finalists
• Peyton Manning E
• Charles Woodson E
• Jared Allen F
• Calvin Johnson E
• Eric Allen F
• Willie Anderson F
• Cornelius Bennett SF
• Rodney Harrison F
• Ronde Barber E
• Tony Boselli E
• LeRoy Butler E
• Alan Faneca E
• Torry Holt F
• John Lynch E
• Clay Matthews X (S)
• Sam Mills E
• Richard Seymour E
• Steve Tasker X (S)
• Fred Taylor F
• Zach Thomas E
• Hines Ward SF
• Reggie Wayne F
• Patrick Willis E
• Darren Woodson F
• Bryant Young E
(E = 13/25 + 10 still eligible)
2022 first ballot E = 0 (+ 3 later elected:Ware,Hester,AJohnson)
2023first ballot E = 2 (+ 1 later elected:Freeney)
2024 first ballot E = 1 (+ 1 likely elected:Gates)
Total: 2021 finalists 25 (13 elected)+ 2022-2024 first ballot elected/likely elected=8
It would be nice if Nalen, Wisniewski, Webb, Bennett, E Allen, etc can break through but its doubtful.
If Young and Mills can do it though, anything is possible. The process usually plays out.
Young and Mills had advantage of being semifinalists in years before final year as modern candidate. Of you listed Eric Allen is well positioned (now a finalist) but others are quickly running out of time
So roughly 50% of the semi-finalists in 2021 were elected within the next four Classes. I’d say a further five are in good position to be elected in the following four (2025-28). J.Allen, Holt, Wayne, Anderson and Woodson. That would be 18/25 from say 2021-28.
I’ve taken a look back at the 2017 semi-finalists to see how many have been elected in the eight Classes from 2017-24.
E* is elected but not as modern era candidate.
Morten Andersen – E
Steve Atwater – E
Tony Boselli – E
Isaac Bruce – E
Don Coryell – E*
Roger Craig – X (S)
Terrell Davis – E
Brian Dawkins – E
Alan Faneca – E
Chris Hinton – X (S)
Torry Holt – F
Joe Jacoby – X (S)
Edgerrin James – E
Jimmy Johnson – E*
Mike Kenn – X (S)
Ty Law – E
John Lynch – E
Clay Matthews – X (S)
Kevin Mawae – E
Karl Mecklenburg – X (S)
Terrell Owens – E
Jason Taylor – E
LaDainian Tomlinson – E
Hines Ward – SF
Kurt Warner – E
Darren Woodson – F
17/26 elected (15 as modern era, two as coaches/contributor)
6 Now in the Seniors pool
2 finalists (Holt, Woodson)
1 semi-finalist (Ward)
good work..it seems likely that 80%+ of semi-finalists get elected eventually (as moderns), so odds are pretty good but not all are. And besides the “obvious” PFHOFers that hit the ballot in year one of eligibility, and elected within 5 years or less..it does seem besides that cohort, if a player is going to have a strong chance they need to get to the semi-finalist list as soon as possible and then make step to finalist-the longer those steps take the less likely they are going to be elected. Going back to when the semi-finalist round was added (2003?), I am not aware of a player who did not make semi-finalist round until their last year of modern eligibility get elected-in fact rare for player to get elected last year as modern when first time as finalist (but like Mills it can happen).
and modern semi-finalists ending up in the seniors pool is a bleak prospect-just look at your list and how many still sit there with uncertain prospects of ever being elected…
I’ve been wondering how come in 2016 they elected Dick Stanfel who played in the 50s but this time they didn’t elect Buddy Parker who coached in the 50s
Younger Group of voters in 2024 Andy
Parker also faced false allegations of racism
Luke Kuechly will be an interesting candidate coming up for 1st ballot selection. Though deserving, its very rare for any player to get voted in that quickly over an eight year career …
The last to do it was Earl Campbell, which surprised me. I didnt know he was a first ballot selection till recently. Gale Sayers, if I am not mistaken, has the shortest career for any first ballot selection at seven years, unless someone knows of an another player?
Correct Brian Sayers has the shortest career for a first time inductee with only 68 games Kuechly has 118 Earl Campbell with 115 Games
Thanks Robert … Gale and Earl stood out on the eye test, like Kuechly, but Willis fans may howl if he is voted in first ballot without waiting … might be better to just have another clean-up year.
Whats interesting about Campbell is that he did most of statistics during his first four seasons, with only one more 1000 yard season his last four. He just wore down …
Will be very interesting to see how voters view Kuechly as first ballot..could be in a class weak in terms of strong 1st ballot candidates he gets in class of 2025, its leading to one of the most difficult classes in recent years to predict. Returning finalists who made final 10 (Gates,Holt,JAllen,Woodson,WAnderson) have a huge advantage.
not a problem Brian my pleasure, it’s going to be interesting how the voters handle kuechlys case will he get in the first year or will he have a willis type of wait, im thinking hes more of a year 2 guy than a year 1 guy again it depends on the voters
Short career or not, Kuechly is more deserving of first ballot selection than Urlacher, though its subjective of course. I put more stock in first ballot selection than those who follow the yearly class eligibles …
that i will agree with 100% Brian LK’s Credentials are out of this world
challenge LK faces as potential 1st ballot election is the short career, otherwise his PFHOF resume checks off all the boxes voters look for.
Only the true greatest players of all time (Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus-interestingly drafted by Bears same year) over came that limitation on their resumes
You want to know something noticed with Steve Atwater Leroy Butler and Ronde Barber when they were finalists they started out by being among the first 5 cut during the cut to 10 then the next year they were among the last 5 cut during the reduction to 5 the next year they were elected I think that’s what’s going to happen to Darren Woodson next year
agreed paul 100% the short career is the biggest hurdle he has , im thinking with the backlog hes a year 2 guy but sometimes you never know
Yes there has been a recent pattern of players advancing from semi-finalists (year x), finalists (year x+1), final 10 (year x+2) and then elected (year x+3). If there is “room” in the final 5, given slots could go to first ballot or in case of class of 2024, players jumped right from final 15 to election (Willis/Hester). But yes once you see a player make that progress via those steps to final 10, and having time left on the modern ballot, they tend to be elected.
Hence Woodson, JAllen (2x final 10), WAnderson, Holt (2x in final 10) – plus Gates, are all well situated to be elected 2025-2027 time period. I think voters not electing Gates, unexpectedly (to many) opened up path that helped Hester make the jump from top 15 (in 2023, his 2nd yr on ballot) to elected in 2024-jumping over others from 2023 final 10 like Holt and JAllen-both of whom look primed for 2025 election-especially given lack of strong 1st ballot finalists.
I think Gates, Hot, Allen all look as strong odds to be in class of 2025, with Woodson perhaps next one. But that 4th slot, and certainly the 5th slot are wide open..not so sure any 2024 Final 11-15 player makes jump to election in 2025, but do we get a first ballot in LK or even Adam Vinatieri-as I think that is where the greatest uncertainly/unknown exists for that election.
My 2025 prediction remains at Gates, JAllen,Holt, Woodson and LK but could get 2 of those wrong……
as to seniors and coach-contributors, given the 2024 unpredictable results I challenge anyone to get those 100% correct..currently thinking is that MikeH, MikeS and Kraft are in running for that one slot, and for seniors, could be anyone on the 2025 semi-finalist list, those with best chances would seem to be Sharpe, Craig, KAnderson, ALewis, Baughan, Meador but could be any 3 of those or others..impossible to know how what direction senior committee goes and support from full committee on any senior candidate at this point.
I have a confession when I learned Buddy Parker was the Coach/Contributor finalist I was happy for him but I was also worried because he coached in the 50s and a lot of voters don’t know who he is and the selection committee as Rick Gosselin said is getting younger not older so I was hoping he would be elected but at the same time I was worried he wouldn’t be elected
Sorry I didn’t tell you this in August please forgive me
Now I wish Robert Kraft had been the Coach/Contributor finalist hopefully he’s elected next and I can see him with a Gold Jacket when I go to Canton in August 2028 for Tom Brady’s Hall of Fame induction
Andy ill be honest like you i figured parker wouldnt get elected because he mainly coached in the 50s and 60s and for various other reasons none of which dealing with racism
Robert various other reasons like what
1. Low Win Total only had 104 Regular Season wins other Candidates Marty Schottenheimer Dan Reeves 190 Tom Coughlin 170 Mike Shanahan 170 Mike Holmgren 161 George Seifert 114
2. Quit on the Lions Prior to the 57 season had he stayed on he would have 3 nfl titles with the lions
3. Voters were probably thinking why are we considering him over coughlin shanahan Seifert Holmgren ETC
Yea let’s elect a HC with more career wins but no championships–good thinking there by the voters..seems like issue #2 was discussed-seems minor point given the 2 NFL championshiops…as to #3 voters should follow the recommendation of the coach-contributor committee and all their work and efforts in considering all candidates including those other coaches..again the full committee did a disgrace to the process, Parker’s family and to their peer voters serving on the coach-contributor committee..but the worst of if was the false (and off the field) allegations of racism which are unfounded.
still holding out hope that Hall President, staff and Board are so embarrassed and annoyed at how that election meeting unfolded that they take steps to improve the entire election process before we start on the 2025 cycle.
Paul what steps do you hope Jim Porter the staff and the board take to improve the entire election process
I really like Jim Porter and the job’s he’s doing I hope he’s still the president in 2028 so I can meet him when I go to Canton to see Tom Brady get inducted and tell him what a great job he’s doing
Let me share with you his mantra his mantra is get it right and he certainly got it right by expanding to three seniors hopefully he can get it right by improving the entire election process and having a special election for pre 60s candidates
Expectations or not, The Texans are loading up for next season and the fans are in for another positive ride. They get Stephon Diggs from Buffalo–weakening their team–added to a roster with Stroud, Mixon, Collins, Dell and Brown. They get Hunter on defense who will compete with Anderson at getting to the QB. If they can get corners in the draft, this team could challenge even more.
With the Bills, you wonder if they will ever give enough weapons to Josh Allen, who deserves a championship. Their window could be closing unless McDermott can still keep the team hungry.
Could this season be his last in Buffalo? Can the Bills get solid starters in the draft?
Damn, I forgot to mention Shultz for Houston. Lots of receivers but one ball for that team. Could Stroud become the next Warren Moon ?
some ideas I would have for Porter regarding voters:
1) have term limits or rotate set of voters so each year there would be 20-25% voters rotated out and replacements rotated-refresh and bring fresh views while also keeping experienced voters on the committee (those rotated out would sit out 5 yrs before eligible to return)
2) as more media types retire from professional (several recently have or soon will be), look to diverse committee not just by adding younger media reps as replacements, but also ensure historians and others who have better understanding of the history of the game pre 2000 are on committee as voting members-say 10-15 of total 50;
3) consider increasing size of senior and coach-contributor committees from 12 each to 20 to get more voices in those rooms when those elections are made;
4) re-enforce the existing rules given to voters to follow in terms of no consideration of off the field aspects (apparently he had to interrupt meeting last January to remind voters of that)…voters who will not follow that rule, raise those topics in presentations or discussions should be removed permanently as voters;
5) for 2026-2028 continue with 3 seniors per year but mandate one slot for pre 1960 candidates
and finally for the most controversial recommendation- remove the requirement the seniors and coach-contributor require 80% yes from the full PFHOF selection committee..give those two subcommittees authority to make direct elections (as is case with BBHOF era committees), have those committees meet in person in Mid January to elect, and the following day full committee meets to elect up to 5 moderns (as is current process). With the 2024 elections it is pretty clear to everyone involved and those fans, public and media that follow elections, that the full committee does not value or respect the work of those two subcommittees, plus many voters lack the interest or knowledge of the history of the game prior to 1990s-so I say take their role in electing seniors and coach-contributors away from them.
I was going to suggest Paul’s “controversial” recommendation of a direct election from a Seniors and Contributors panel and have a separate Modern Era panel. From a finalist list as we have with the modern era, cut it down to a top 6, then a final list of 3 Seniors and 1 contributor followed by a vote requiring 80%. Of course there may be a crossover of some electors onto both panels, so have one panel sit on one week and the modern era panel can focus on 15 names the week after.
The plan this January was for a two day election meeting in Atlanta (cancelled due to bad weather impacting travel plans of voters) so if Hall is looking to two day meeting-seems easy to consider holding subcomittees on afternoon of day 1 and they stay in town and join full committee next day to elect moderns.
note: last year Porter talked about re-considering the current tight two month senior and coach-contributor election process (which jumps from semi-finalist ballot-to finalist- to subcommittee meetings to select their finalists over July-August), perhaps changing that timeline to mirror moderns-which would give those subcommittees more time to consider those series of ballots… Sept to Jan…be interesting to see if that is changed for 2025 election cycle…
(as to Boknows suggestions, those subcommittees already have stages from 25+ candidates to 12 to 6 and to 3 finalists selected for election. with 1 for coach-contributor
id be ok with them removing the 80% requirement for seniors and contributors 100%, now heres another question i have is three seniors enough or should we go to 4
I think if Hall continues with 3 each year for 2026-2028 that there is no need to go to 4….but voters really need to start putting forth the strongest of candidates as Powell resume had holes and McMichael election was emotion driven… with potentially 12 more senior slot available there is a great opportunity for voters to really make some advancements in reducing the top of of the pool of senior candidates.
Other than a shorter career, there weren’t any holes in Powells’ candidacy. He dominated the AFL just like Lavelli and Speedie dominated the AAFC and they made the HOF. He was the primary receiver in NY over Don Maynard and Oakland with Fred Biletnikoff … even in 1978, ten years after he retired, he was still 5th all-time in TD receptions and even today, only 15 receivers who have retired, averaged more receiving yards per game.
What holes are you referring to paul I have an idea on them but I want to hear them from you before I share mine
criticism regarding having numbers and accolades in early years of AFL when competition was not very strong, debate as to whether he was the most deserving of AFL WRs not already in the Hall -can’t say I agree with those assessments but voters raised them.
most likley with powell i believe its mainly the debate about whether he was the most deserving afl receiver not in the hall ,BTW the most deserving afl receiver not in the hall is Lionel Taylor
I would take Powell over Taylor. Taylor was a great player on a bad team. Powell helped put the Raiders and Al Davis on the map. Being traded for Lamonica helped win them a championship.
Alot of these modern receivers trying to make the HOF have to be nervous with not only Fitzgerald coming up but Antonio Brown as well. I looked at Brown’s stats again and didn’t realize how effective he was as a kick and punt returner. Winning that ring with the Bucs should get him elected but I am not sure if he will be first ballot or even make it by 2029.
You want a HOF player to give everything out of his talent, but he took it for granted and became a nightmare for teams after leaving the Steelers. I really wouldn’t be surprised if he got elected in the same class as Big Ben …
OJ Simpson has died …
Murderer or not, an incredible life. Hopefully his kids can find peace in their own lives.
And no, the HOF will not kick him out …
I certainly would not characterize OJ as having an incredible life-not how I would think of a person who murdered 2 people
….hope his soul rots in hell for all eternity
(and no the PFHOF will not nor should not kick him or others out…it does raise the interesting dilemma all a major sports HOF face-as none have any current policy or process to deal with a murderer if one was ever a candidate for election….)
Fitz may or may not be first ballot, but won’t wait long for election….as to A Brown-he is going to wait a very long time..several years, perhaps much longer….
I hope O,J. Simpson found the Lord before he died. Other than that good riddance!!
As far as Antonio Brown, I hope youre right Paul, yet these younger voters may put him in quicker than we think. I still think that hit he took from Vontaze Burfict in that 2016 playoff game, affected his brain thereafter …
I think Richard Sherman might get voted in by 2029 as well. It will be close yet I hope Vinatieri doesn’t wait too long.
Antonio Brown was a moron and idiot long before that hit…and I think many are underestimating how many voters (including younger voters) are going to hold his behavior walking off the field during a game against him…I foresee 5 to 7 yr wait on the ballot…
I don’t really worry too much about players clearly who are PFHOFers (like Sherman and Vinatieri) wait-in both cases likely less than 5, could be much sooner.
This is what I was going to post before my zoneblitz went down for me. Who I think should definitely get in *
*Tiki Barber – one of the most impressive stat lines and eye test for me.
*Corey Dillon – Passes the eye test and much like Earl Campbell the whole show in Cinnci. He was great from the beginning. A real bruiser. The difference was Dillon played for a bad team. Finished great with the Pats. I’ve always been very high on.
Ricky Watters- a money player and passes eye test. He’s very much like Roger Craig. Both caught the ball well. Still a tweener who I lean no on because of his year to year yards per carry. But that could be picky. Might get in as a Senior?
Fred Taylor- Passed the eye test. Great average. Low TD’s because of WR weapons. Didn’t get a lot of national exposure or might have more PB’s. Only one PB like John Riggins. I’m not sure if someone nicknamed Fragile Fred can be in the HOF? lol I lean no, maybe as a Senior.
Shaun Alexander – Very Good but doesn’t really pass eye test for me. He will likely get in HOF because of 100 tds in same way Marcus Allen did. I don’t support either one. I was a big fan of each in college.
Eddie George- Might be the most well remembered of all. Loved the way he played for the Titans. I can’t support a 3.7 career avg. A definite NO!
Tony P heres where i stand on each running back and if i view them as a Hall of Famer
Barber Yes
Dillion Yes
Watters Solid Yes
Fred Taylor- Not as a Modern Maybe a senior
Alexander No
Eddie George NO
If Alexander ever gets in the first two people he should thank in his speech are Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson. He’s also a No from me.
Great minds think alike in terms of Alexander not ever getting into the hall of fame boknows
Alexander was a smart runner who utilized his blocking well. Anyone with 120 TDs counting postseason deserves consideration. Imagine had he played 13-14 seasons?
I think very quickly voters will move on to 2010s RB in AP, Gore, Lynch and perhaps McCoy. At that point the 1990s early 2000s RB prospects will fall off their radar
Brian, I agree on Alexander. He was a slippery RB who like you say was good at maximizing his blocks. But he was spent as a runner by 30 much like Eddie George. I misspoke on his HOF chances. I thought he had played for 10 years. He was no Terrell Davis just a very good RB who had some super seasons behind a great OL with a great HC. I hope you’re wrong Paul. :)
my guess (and that is all it is) is that we see Taylor and perhaps Watters elected as moderns-the rest will have to take their chances as seniors as I just don’t see these voter electing multiple RBs from 1990s early 2000s, specially when the 2010s RBs hit the ballot in next few years.
Agreed on taylor and Watters 100% Paul although I must admit I’m a bigger fan of watters
Paul here’s the problem I have with suggestion #5 of your ideas for Jim Porter on how to improve the entire election process which is mandating one senior a pre 60s candidate if Buddy Parker didn’t get elected then imagine what would happen if the Hall made one senior slot a pre 60s candidate he wouldn’t be elected because the voters never saw those guys play nor have they heard of them that’s why I think a special election for pre 60s candidates is a better with voters like Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge and historians like Bill Belichick Chris Willis John Turney and Ken Crippen like the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class
The Pro Football Hall of Fame should have been founded earlier then we wouldn’t be talking about Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert not being in the Hall of Fame Buddy Parker too
I’m going to write to Jim Porter to tell him the Pro Football Hall of Fame should have a special election for pre 60s candidates
I daydream of being on the panel for a special election for pre 60s candidates
Chris Willis just came out with a book called the NFL’s 60 Minute Men: All Time Greats of the Two-Way Player Era, 1920-1945 in case you don’t know Chris Willis is the head archivist at NFL Films and was a member of the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class he’s written multiple books about Pro Football I got it just a few weeks ago and I love it I recommend it I’ll put a link to it below
https://www.amazon.com/NFLs-60-Minute-Men-All-Time-1920-1945/dp/1476691320
If Tiki had played another season or two I think he’d already be in.
Andy P..its why another of my recommendations was to remove the requirement that senior and coach-contributor finalists receive 80%+ yes voters from full committee…like BBHOF, let those committees directly elect into PFHOF, for the very reason you highlight and one acknowledged by some voters-that many younger members of the full committee simply don’t have the knowledge or interest to consider pre 1960 players.
And going forward in next several years as voters like King, Kaufman, Judge, Gosselin leave the committee that situation is only going to get worse.
Paul what do you think of my idea for a special election for pre 60s candidates
Also did you see the link for Chris Willis’s new book
Yes that’s an idea others including myself have also floated recently, as I suspect a class of 6 or 8 of pre 1960 would address the most deserving and by direct election by panel of historians would then allow Hall and voters to move forward no longer needing to consider the era. Just not sure just 4 years away from the expanded centennial class of 2020 whether the Hall or voters would support such an effort.
Maybe by 2030 there would be support for a special election before closing the door.
Boknows id be ok with something like that by 2030 which would be a decade after the centennial class , my question is paul what is a good number to induct im seeing on here 6 or 8 id be in favor of 8
I’m just not seeing Fred Taylor with only 1 PB over Corey Dillon with 4 PB’s and a similar stat line. The only 1 PB running back I know of in the HOF is John Riggins and Taylor doesn’t have the TD’s or the glory. Taylor was a tough runner and I suppose he missed out on 2-3 PB’s but I can say that about others too. IMO there are more RB’s just as deserving who have the accolades.
What Tiki Barber did in year 30 and 31 is incredible to me. I don’t care if he wasn’t used a lot early on. He had nearly 1,400 yards and 11 TD’s one year with 4.6 ypr and didn’t make the PB. Taylor wasn’t close to the receiver Barber was. I think you’d be hard pressed to find too many RB’s that were used more than Barber for a 5 year period. Terrell Davis didn’t last over 3 years with high usage.
I find it interesting that the younger fans / analysts say Gayle Sayers shouldn’t be in the HOF. For 20 years after there was no doubt by those who say him about the skill he exhibited. Now they can criticize so easily. They just look at the numbers. The same thing with Bob Griese being a game manager . Anyone who saw him knew he could throw the ball with most of the best QB’s of the time and was one of the most accurate in his time . Plus his claim to fame was being the best at reading defenses and making the right move. I’m glad they didn’t get hung up with number back then or Paul Warfield might not be in the HOF. IMO I have him right behind Jerry Rice. He was one of only a handful of WR’s to get elected on the first ballot. When you can make plays look so easy that’s greatness. He had grace and athleticism in spades.
I we are talking just pre-1960 players, looking at my current list of 25 senior candidates, I see need for a special class of 5 or 6 (Lavvie Dilweg, Ox Emerson,Al Wistert, Verne Lewellen, Cecil Isbell)…unfortunately that would not include Baughan and Meador who played in the 1960s and are in my top 6 most deserving seniors from all eras. And yes my list would elect those remaining from the 2020 Centennial class finalists. Not so sure there are strong cases for other pre 1960s, so guessing 5 or 6 is about right. I have not seen but would certainly entertain considering others if cases can be made for them.
And I think if one were looking to parallel the 2020 special class election of seniors, and if Hall were to wait until 2030 to do so…its likely you could set qualification to pre 1970 and elect ten seniors and be done with that era. Reality is that time is also running out for 1960s players as committee gets younger, and perhaps even more significant by 2030 the senior committee will also be much younger, with voters who never saw, considered or researched the 1960s. As each year goes by, the eras of seniors considered by the committee will get more recent-appears impossible today for any pre 1960s (unless mandated), easy to see by 2030 same situation would occur for the 1960s decade players.
Here would be my 10 if they went that route
Maxie Baughan
Jim Benton
Lavvie Dilweg
Ox Emerson
Ken Kavanaugh
Verne Lewellen
Eddie Meador
Tommy Nobis
Art Powell
Del Shofner
Robert dont forget about Isbell Wistert etc
Maybe every 5-10 years or so they can close a decade with a special class.
Pre 60s – I’d add Al Wistert, Jimmy Patton, Billy Howton to the names above.
1960-69 – Add Baughan, Nobis, Powell, Meador etc or anyone else deserving who is still unelected.
thanks for the feedback Andy P heres the new list
Maxie Baughan
Lavvie Dilweg
Ox Emerson
Cecil Isbell
Verne Lewellen
Eddie Meador
Tommy Nobis
Art Powell
Del Shofner
Al Wistert
Btw Boknows id be ok also with special class every 5-10 years and those 10 were the ten off the top of my head , i will say my next five would include patton howton jim ray smith Fortunato Benton
My guess is that the Hall board, staff and voters are really not that keen on frequent large special classes, suspect best bet is one “final” early senior class of 8-10 (pre 1960 or pre 1970) and they will be done with those eras. Not even sure that going forward we will continue to see annual classes as large as 9 per year after 2028
im thinking the same way you are paul one final early senior class and thats it from that era
Yea and not even sure there is widespread interest or support for that idea among media, fans and most voters. Suspect it would take Porter, Hall staff, historians and voters like Kaufman, Judge, Gosselin, King to push Board on the idea of a special one time panel to direct elect such a class.
Right now I have no idea how likely it is that may occur one day in future.
Just a first time random comment—With the proliferation of players declining Pro Bowl invites and undeserving players being selected in their place (see Tyler Huntley in 2022), how will Pro Bowl selections be treated in the future in relation to HOF candidacy?
Reading comments from current voters, they clearly are aware of the lower value of Pro Bowl selections from the post 2010 era, likely always still be a consideration but players are not going to get consideration for PFHOF based on large number of Pro Bowl selections, focus will continue to be on all pro selections, all decade, career stats and playoff successes. Agreed it is getting more common for many current/recent players to have multiple Pro Bowl selections, but even with 4 or 5 selections its becoming a far less important factor for voters.
Paul—Thanks for the response!
Anyone, what makes y’all think they would have more special elections after the centennial one? Are they going to admit those great men of football on the panel got it wrong or could have done better?
tony im one of those for the record thinking that they shouldnt do another one based on the reasons you listed
Robert I’m confused you said you’d be ok with something like a special election but now your saying your one of those for the record thinking they shouldn’t do another one what made you change your mind
Do you want to see Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert in the Pro Football Hall of Fame or not well I think this is the only way they’re going to get in
for the record andy p i would be in favor of one but only for players prior to 1970 70 to the present would be under the current 3 senior format
Tony p the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class did a solid overall job in electing 15 worthy players coaches and contributors but only four of the players were pre 60s Bobby Dillon Duke Slater Mac Speedie and Ed Sprinkle and only one was pre WWII Duke Slater
As we’ve seen the remaining pre 60s finalists from the Centennial Class haven’t been named senior finalists because the voters never saw those guys play nor have they heard of them that’s why I think a special election for pre 60s candidates is the better idea with voters like Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge and historians like Bill Belichick (he’s a football historian that’s why he was on the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class) Chris Willis (who was on the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class) John Turney and Ken Crippen like the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class
The Pro Football Hall of Fame should have been founded earlier then we wouldn’t be talking about Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert not being in the Hall of Fame Buddy Parker too
I daydream of being on the panel for a special election for pre 60s candidates
you would be a perfect fit andy on that panel you would be a great asset 100%