It reportedly took the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s voting board less than a minute to determine that Brett Favre
Courtesy of the Pro Football Hall of Fame
would be a first-ballot enshrinee in the class of 2016.
Favre headlines a class that also includes coach Tony Dungy, WR Marvin Harrison, DE/LB Kevin Greene, T Orlando Pace, contributor Edward DeBartolo Jr. and senior candidates Dick Stanfel and QB Ken Stabler.
Voters started the day by whittling a group of 15 finalists down to 10. Those eliminated on the first cut were K Morten Andersen, S Steve Atwater, WR Terrell Owens, G Alan Faneca and RB Edgerrin James, meaning the five modern era candidates who made the final 10 but were not selected were QB Kurt Warner, T Joe Jacoby, RB Terrell Davis, S John Lynch and Coach Don Coryell. The group of 15 finalists was unveiled last month.
Once the five modern-era finalists had been selected, selectors voted yes or no on each of those candidates and on Stanfel, Stabler and DeBartolo. Each needed 80 percent yes votes to earn enshrinement. The class of 2016 hits the max number of eight that can be inducted in any given year.
Throughout the process, Favre’s election has been seen as just short of a guarantee. Harrison emerged as another strong candidate despite having dealt with some legal issues in the years since his career ended. Pace joins Jonathan Ogden and Walter Jones as left tackles from the early 2000s. Dungy emerged from a trio of coaches – Coryell and Jimmy Johnson being the others – who have seen the momentum for their enshrinement ebb and flow in recent years. And Greene has been a semifinalist each of the past 10 years and a finalist the last four.
Senior candidates Stanfel and Stabler both died in 2015. Their candidacies – particularly that of Stanfel, who has been in front of the senior committee three times since 1993 – were criticized by some observers, who felt there were stronger senior-eligible candidates. I’m a bit surprised that the committee voted him in, given that he’s missed the cut twice previously. And I’m not convinced that Stabler was the most deserving of Oakland Raiders senior candidates – I’d have preferred to see Cliff Branch or Lester Hayes get the nod – but many respected minds who played and/or observed the NFL in the 1970s say he’s a worthy candidate. So I’m not going to be bothered by his inclusion.
DeBartolo’s legal troubles also were a source of debate – discussion amongst voters on his candidacy reportedly took nearly an hour.
The selections mean both Tony and I hit four of the five modern-era candidates. I missed on Tony Dungy, instead picking Jimmy Johnson (whose case I still believe is stronger). Tony picked Kurt Warner instead of Marvin Harrison.
My initial reaction is that there aren’t many surprises this year. It’s a solid class, though I think there are stronger senior candidates who could have been selected. The more I read about Stanfel, the more questionable I think his position is – particularly given that it took three tries with the senior committee. But at least now that he’s in, the senior selectors can move on to others. In getting Greene elected, voters finally put to an end the wait for a guy whose eventual enshrinement has seemed a near certainty for awhile.
At the same time, I still think Johnson deserved to make it before Dungy. And the list of legitimate candidates from the safety position who can’t seem to get a sniff of the final room is going to continue to get longer.
Next year’s first-time eligible candidates include LaDainian Tomlinson, Jason Taylor, Donovan McNabb, Brian Dawkins and Hines Ward. We’ll take a stab at predicting the class of 2017 in the near future.
What are your thoughts?
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I went 8-for-8: http://sports.morganwick.com/2016/01/predictions-for-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame-class-of-2016/ Admittedly, not hard to do. I just took last year’s 6-10 candidates and swapped out Warner for Favre. Some of the finalists raised the prospect they’d go way off the reservation, but in the end the class was eminently predictable.
Great job, NFL, tape-delaying NFL Honors even on the East Coast. The show’s just beginning on CBS and the HoF class (the main reason I intended to watch) is all over the place already. And I’m on the West Coast so it doesn’t even start for me for another three hours (something CBS has figured out they needed to fix with the Grammys). You’re making billions of dollars because you represent live programming for the networks and you can’t figure this out?
I also went 8/8 with 5/5 moderns predicted this time last year, yea may seem easy but previous elections hard to predict always surprises and not as simple as adding sure 1st ballot Farve with four 2015 finalists, not so sure 2017 is going to be as easy
I’m happiest for Stanfel. I wish he was here. At least he’s no longer in the senior pool.
I know I’ll have dissent here but I can’t really find myself to think Stabler is deserving. It’s unfortunate he died and I’m sorry he had CTE, but this was a sympathy vote.
Now we get to guess who the lone senior candidate for next year will be. Any takers?
Corey, I’m glad Stanfel got in because it seemed like the senior committee was going to keep nominating him until he got there. The more I read about him, the more it seems like he was a solid-but-unspectacular player who had a short playing career and missed a lot of time during that span due to injury. That spot, to me, could have been filled with a stronger candidate. Perhaps I’m missing something. Maybe he was a good enough assistant coach in the years following his career (sort of like a Dick LeBeau situation, though it’s my understanding voters aren’t supposed to look at it that way) that his case was strengthened. So it goes.
He was a 5/5 All Decade guard. Stephenson also was 5/5 All Decade in a seven year span. Stanfel deserves it. He should’ve been inducted decades ago.
Now can we please get Robinson in there?
I had my strong views about Stabler and Stanfel back when they were nominated last August, but tonight they were deservingly elected. As to 2017 senior I continue to hope for Howley but long given up on predicting what that committee is doing. For 2017 contributors I would go with Gil Brant and Bobby Bethard
Johnny Robinson and Jerry Kramer are way overdue. I know TO not making the final cut does not bode well but I do still think he gets in next year. If not he is easily front runner for 2018. Randy Moss eligible then, who I think could get in 1st ballot, but probably won’t since TO didn’t. But, TO going in next year will clear the path for Randy in 2018 or 2019 then we will have to deal with Hines Ward and Reggie Wayne, for the future along with Calvin Johnson. And once Andre Johnson retires, he will be in conversation. I don’t know how much longer Larry Fitzgerald plays, but he could play another 3-4 seasons and approach 1,300-1,400 receptions.
I like Bobby Beathard. He made 7 SBs and won 4 of them. Ryan Leaf pick shouldn’t hurt his chances.
Every team makes a bad pick. Beathard’s resume cannot be argued against.
What about George Young? He’s been discussed before.
Congratulations to the new class. As have posted elsewhere, did not think Stabler, Stanfel, or DeBartolo were deserving, but hey, they’re in. At least they’re cleared off the decks and hopefully we get better candidates next year. And in a way, I’m glad for Stanfel even though I’ve soured on his candidacy — being a three-time Senior loser wouldn’t have been a nice thing. And with Stabler in, there’s no rationale to keep out Ken Anderson when he comes up in future.
I had guessed the inductees correctly, and no question the five regular candidates are deserving. As always, the committee did well by the regular candidates with minimal drama — something you can’t say about the Baseball Hall voters.
LaDanian Tomlinson is the only real first ballot guy next year, so most of the folks who made the cut from 15 to 10 this time should be in next year’s class, likely Lynch, Jacoby, Warner, and Davis.
Randy Moss has a stronger resume than TO in my mind. Another player hurt by not making the final ten is Edgerrin James, although LDT was probably going to keep him out next year anyway, but being behind Terrell Davis in the pecking order is not a good sign (although Edge has more time to get in).
2017 is definitely harder to predict than 2016 was. Will the Hall pick John Lynch or Brian Dawkins at safety? Will Joe Jacoby’s sudden momentum carry him into the Hall next year, or was it a one-year phenomenon and Faneca will leapfrog him? Tomlinson, Warner, and Coryell are the favorites for the final three spots, but does TO bump out Coryell?
I think Stanfel and DeBartolo are worthy. I just can’t say the same for Stabler.
(Terrell Davis I don’t see going in next year if LDT is going in, for the same reason I didn’t have Kurt Warner going in this year: it would make two players at one position with one of them not being first-ballot.)
I was 7 out of 8 for Hall of Fame selections. I have no idea who the Senior Committee committee is going to nominate in August.
Who would you guys picked to be the 15 finalists, 2 Contributor Category nominees and Senior nominee?
15 Modern Era Finalists
Steve Atwater, Terrell Davis, Joe Jacoby, Alan Faneca, Terrell Owens, Ty Law, Don Coryell, John Lynch, Kurt Warner, Jason Taylor, Brian Dawkins, Isaac Bruce, LaDainian Tomlinson, Morten Andersen, Edgerrin James and Jimmy Johnson. 2 Contributor: Bobby Beathard and Gil Brandt. 1 Senior Chuck Howley.
Thats for 2017
Modern era finalists next year — for sure Faneca,, Jacoby, Davis, Tomlinson, James, Warner, Owens, Andersen, Atwater, Dawkins, Lynch, Coryell, and Taylor.
The last two are wild cards and likely will be chosen from Mecklenburg, Kenn, Bruce, Holt, Law, Johnson, and Mawae. No idea who they’ll be.
Seniors and Contributors? I’ve got my preferences, but your guess is as good as mine here.
I think I want Al Wistert as my senior pick. Beathard and George Young for contributors.
Rob
I like your list but have 16 names there. Which one would you drop? I’m guessing Law or Bruce.
With Dungy elected I think we’ll see Johnson back in the Final 15 next year. With the 10 returning finalists I would also add Tomlinson, Taylor and Dawkins as first time eligible candidates.
2017 looks a bit light on the defensive side so I’d probably go with Ty Law or Darren Woodson as the 15th finalist.
If Owens is the only WR among the 2017 finalists I think he might jump over Davis, who will have a first ballot lock Tomlinson to contend with at RB. Davis for 2018 with Edge James a year or two afterwards. TO and Moss will both be elected by 2019.
Jacoby has two years left on the ballot, and with the golden generation of Jones, Roaf, Ogden, Allen and Pace all now in, I think he has enough momentum to be elected by 2018.
PS: I wish I had a £ (yes I’m British and the £ is stronger than the $) :-) for every time I read on social media.
“(Insert Favourite player) got robbed. The HOF is a joke and a disgrace.”
Hey guys, they can only put in a max of 5 from 15. You’d think this was their favourite player’s one and only chance of Canton to see the negative reactions.
I’d be more upset if a senior candidate I wanted fell short.
They’ve gone with two GMs and an owner in the two years we’ve had the contributor category.
Next year I think we might see a change in direction with Gil Brandt and Steve Sabol. Young and Beathard certainly appear to be the next GMs in contention.
Yes or No for the following owners?
Modell
Bowlen
Kraft (only a matter of time imo)
Jones
Corey, I agree, because you never know if they’ll ever get another chance with the depth of the Seniors Pool. TO will be on the ballot for another 19 years should he need it.
Then again, Humphrey was nominated in 2009 before his 2014 election. Stanfel got elected after falling short in 1993 and 2012.
Jerry Kramer was nominated in 1997, nothing since. Why nothing since then? Personallly I would nominate Wistert and Robinson first but Kramer is probably third on my list of senior snubs. Kramer’s exclusion is not only wrong, it’s contradictory.
The reason Jerry Kramer hadn’t gotten in before mystified me as well (and to an extent still does), but Ken Crippen’s film study website provided a clue. Kramer apparently was a great pulling guard who was at elite level blocking on running and screen pass plays, but not especially good at pass protection. I don’t think that’s enough to keep him out, but with film study guys like Dr. Z on the committee, I’m sure they were aware of the issue.
Re Contributors: I definitely think the major GM types should be in (Beathard, Brandt, Young) as well as Sabol and McNally. Could go either way on Tagliabue. Not excited by any of the possible owner candidates but would probably rank them Robert Kraft, Jerry Jones, Art Modell, Bud Adams, Jack Kent Cooke, Clint Murchison, Pat Bowlen. Both Bucko Kilroy and C. O. Brocato were contributor semifinalists last year and I’m not in any hurry to see them elected. Kilroy would probably have to be a combo type candidate anyway (he’s a hall of the very good level guard). Brocato may have as good an argument for scouts as anybody along with Bill Nunn, but not sure how high priority they are.
Interestingly enough, there appears to be a well-established NFL scouts hall of fame:
http://www.ourlads.com/scouthof/
Maybe that’s good enough for that particular category.
I think Jack Kent Cooke or Bobby Beathard would be good choices. for contributers with Paul Taglibue. I never originally though of Taglibue, but I realized he must be deserving after watching Roger Goodell the last few years..
The Senior nominee should come come from the pool J. Robinson, Howley, Kramer, Branch or Lester Hayes.
Any chance it’s Kuechenberg? His name has been thrown around.
I don’t think Dr. Z is on the committee anymore, which is good.
I grew up with n Tags as commissioner. I don’t remember him getting the hate Goodell has gotten.
@Boknows34 I would probably drop Bruce for Law. Thanks for pointing that out.
I never did see a list of the finalists considered by the seniors committee for 2016 (HOF does not make it public), but in recent years some names did emerge including:
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
G – Bob Kuechenberg 2/6/70s-80s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014)
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s-80s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
DE – L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s (finalist 2013, 2015)
DL Joe Klecko 2/4 (finalist, 2015)
LB – Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s (finalist 2012, 2014)
LB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012, 2014)
LB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
LB- Mike Curtis 2/4/60s-70s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
LB- Randy Gradishar 5/7 (finalist, 2015)
LB Robert Brazile 5/7/70s(finalist, 2015)
CB- Bobby Boyd 0/2/60s(finalist, 2015)
CB-Pat Fischer 0/3 (finalist, 2015)
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
S- Ken Riley 0/4 (finalist 2014)
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014)
But then Stabler and Stanfel were not on recent lists – although their names have floated around for years and Stanfel was senior candidate 2x before. Also keep in mind that the 5 voting members of the senior committer rotates each year, so hard to develop strong year to year trends on possible favorite senior candidates. Only one common characteristic to the senior committee selections is uncertainty. Good chance the two 2017 candidates come the above list, but good be anyone or complete surprises. I think a defense position (dominating this list) is likely, starting with LBs or DBs as they have the deepest pool of senior candidates and voters keep talking about needing more defense, or better balance with offense, in PFHOF..
In terms of Owners mentioned by boknows34, here is what I think if they should be in Canton:
Modell-No
Bowlen – Yes
Kraft – Yes
Jones- No
As to 2017 moderns, I remain stunned that majority of 46 voters did not even advance TO into final 10. I am thinking his wait may extend beyond 2017 to 2019/2020 (Moss will add to challenge when he joins ballot in 2018) as voters clearly have issues with his candidacy and the division could take a few years to be resolved (also possible their one year, non 1st ballot “punishment”may be all it is).
Beyond LT lock for 2017, I see Warner, Jacoby and Lynch as well positioned for election; Coryell has made the important next step into the final 10 and appears to have support from many, and same for TD unless voters feel giving RBs two of the five slots is not fair.
As to the 2017 contributor slot, I am not a big fan of adding another owner so soon, but focus should move on to GMs/scouts in Bobby Beathard, Gil Brant, or George Young (with Ed Sabol Jr as a wildcard). And with five more contributor slots from 2017(2), 2018(1) and 2019(2), Paul Taglibue may also be selected at some point, even though his previous appearance on the final 15 modern was controversial and he got lack of support, so I am not sure they are yet ready to consider him, but at some point he will get in.
As to the current five year plan (2015-2019) of alternating 1-2 slots between seniors and contributors, at the end of that period I would like the HOF Board to vote to move forward with 1 remain more deep in quality deserving candidates than contributors.
I’m happiest for Ken Stabler’s family and Kevin Greene. I’m a little disappointed John Lynch didn’t make it. I’m not sure if Tony’s reputation as a great guy wasn’t more responsible than his accomplishment for getting him into HOF. I’m just saying everyone is talking about Peyton being a top 5 QB of all-time and you would think the Colts would of done more. Truth is the Colts rarely had a Defense that was above average and Dungy was a D guy. It looks like Dungy took T.O.’s spot. Owens was never going to be rewarded with year one election.
As I posted before I tend to supportive and then most happiest for the candidates who finally get in after years of disappointment as finalist and have to go through the wait and let down year after year – this year was Greene. For 2017 and beyond that “torch” is passed onto Warner and TD.
Lynch is simply caught up in the numbers game and disrespect HOF voters give safeties, his jump into the final 10 this year leads me to believe he is close and voters are starting to understand the need to address the Safety position, I think he is in great shape for next year.
In recent years as Dungy entered as a finalist and repeatedly into the final 10 it became clear there was strong support among HOF voters for him, building two great teams, winning a SB (and many years as an outstanding assistant coach). Do I think he was the innovator that Coryell was or the team builder/motivator 2xSB winner JJ – no, but at least getting Dungy in breaks down the coaches logjam and improves future chances for both Coryell and JJ.
One other thing re Dungy and PFHoF fitness. He doesn’t have to be at the level of Lombardi, Brown, Lambeau, Landry, Noll, Halas, and Shula. There’s a very well established second tier of HoF coaches that includes Allen, Madden, Ewbank, Gillman, Levy, and Grant — and Dungy fits well in such company.
What a devastating defensive performance from the Broncos tonight. Very happy for Ware and he’s a cert for Canton. Von Miller is certainly on track too. That 2011 rookie class is really special.
Looks like Marshawn Lynch has retired. I feel his lack of career numbers will unfortunately leave him short.
I really do hope Peyton decides to finish his incredible career on a high and goes into Canton in 2021 with his old buddy and Heisman rival Charles Woodson. Truly one of the NFL’s all time greatest players. It’s been a pleasure to watch him and his career deserved a 2nd championship. The first starting QB to win a Super Bowl with 2 teams.
I agree Bo that Peyton should retire on a high note. I don’t want to see him follow in Johnny Unitas’ footsteps. Johnny had a chance to retire in the same fashion after Super Bowl 5. I agree with the comments on Tony Dungy. And I would rather see Johnny Robinson in before Lynch. Paul, I passed on your info regarding the folks in the mix year to year on the Senior selection to J. Rob’s nephew. It is very much appreciated! Johnny is said to sincerely believe he belongs in the HOF and has been affected by the timing of Ken Stabler’s induction. He does not want that to happen to his family. I sure wish we could affect change for Johnny.
Robinson is a senior and Lynch is a modern, although both are Safeties I do not see how the election of one is going to impact another. The senior committee will select their two candidates in late August and could go in many different directions, I doubt they consider the possible positions coming out of the modern candidate pool in the same election year.
I agree that the seniors committee selecting two recently deceased players sets in my mind a really bad potential trend when so many senior candidates are in their late 70s or 80s (I noticed Howley was one of the few SB MVPS unable to attend the game yesterday), it would be terrible in mind if that slot became a memorial. Lets get in the pre 1970 seniors before it is too late for all of them – if they are truly deserving and Robinson and Howley clearly are the committee needs to get them in soon.
I think there’s only one Senior next year, unfortunately. Would be great if it’s Johnny Robinson, but we shall see. Also agreed that Lynch getting in or not doesn’t impact Robinson in any way except maybe positively, making the latter’s snub seem that much more egregious.
Also agreed that Marshawn Lynch’s career will be seen as too short and he won’t get in.
yes one slot for seniors in 2017, I was just suggesting that Robinson and Howley are the next two most deserving (at least in my mind), here is hoping one get the call and the other soon.
Isn’t Kramer around 80, too? Hopefully the rotating committee will nominate one of them. I still want Al Wistert. When’s he getting nominated?
I can’t see Marshawn as a Hall of Famer. When he was at his best, he was fantastic, but he didn’t sustain his greatness long enough for a short career. You can have a short career and still be deserving, but Lynch didn’t do enough. Yes to Megatron, Willis, Thomas, Revis and Peterson, but I think the only way Canton could ever justifiably open its doors to Lynch would be if he excelled as a coach or contributor.
According to Wikipedia, Al Wistert is still alive at age 95. And yes, Jerry Kramer just turned 80. Others still alive: Chuck Howley is 79, Johnny Robinson and Maxie Baughan and Larry Grantham are 77, Eddie Meador and Bobby Boyd and Roger Brown are 78, Del Shofner and Tommy Davis are 81, Billy Howton and Bobby Dillon and Joe Fortunato are 85, Pete Retzlaff is 84. Dave Grayson is 76, Duane Putnam is 87, and Jim Ray Smith is 83,
Quite a few to pick from there. Let’s just hope they go with someone like Greenwood or Kuechenberg.
I mean, I hope they don’t. Focus on the older living.
Amen to all of that!
The question of the day is, does Marshawn Lynch deserve being in the HOF? First thing I think of is how many players their are with more multiple 1,000 yd seasons that aren’t in and might never get in. Skip Bayless who I can’t stand says Lynch compares with Earl Campbell and he will be a HOFer. I have a hard time thinking Lynch is a good. My question is which player was better between Lynch and Terrell Davis?
TD much better then Lynch (and he has a 2,000 yard season, 2 SBs, MVP, and SB MVP to prove it! Lynch is not getting into the HOF, I always saw him as a player who would rise to the occasion in key games during season and most recently during the Seahawks SBs runs. But the quality of years and career is simply not there.
I have been following sport news, social media and the web in recent days and actually a little surprised about the lack of anger over the 2016 HOF elections, yes supporters of TO are out in full force but response seems muted compared to last several years. Maybe that TO has any many detractors as supporters or that players deserving are getting elected with many logjams resolved. Seeing very little outcry for TD or Warner, maybe as some start to understand most of the finalists each year are deserving but with only 5 slots many simply have to wait their turn.
I expect to again see loud cries for Jerry Kramer as the senior candidate (but with the committee recently selecting his teammate Robinson, Kramer clearly lacks their support and likely again for 2017).
As to 2017 moderns, beyond LT, I feel (and have heard of) support for Warner and Jacoby from the 2016 voters, so they appear on path, TD also but may be impacted by LT on the ballot. So for now for me three modern slots are set (LT, Warner, Jacoby) with Lynch and TD next possibilities.
First off, let’s establish this: Skip Bayless is an idiot and a sell out, who has chosen to take big money to shout opinions on television that are rarely agreed with over maintaining any level of credibility or dignity. More power to him, but I find nothing he says worthwhile…
But for argument’s sake, let’s say Lynch was like Campbell. It’s an interesting comparison – which is probably the nicest thing I’ll ever say about Bayless. Campbell played eight years, had five Pro Bowls and three first team All Pro awards. Lynch played nine and was a 5/1.
Campbell led the league in rushing his first three seasons – including a 1,900-plus one in 1980 – and led the league in TDs twice. Lynch did lead in TDs twice, but never in rushing. In fact, Lynch’s third best rushing season would have been Campbell’s third best.
Lynch was a better, or at least more consistent, contributor as a receiver. I don’t think Lynch stands up to Campbell career-wise. I don’t think it’s a given that Lynch won’t make it, but I think, at first glance, he’s probably a no more than a yes… and, right or wrong, Lynch probably hurt himself with the voters – the media – by being standoffish on most interview requests – including the highly publicized “I’m only here so I won’t get fined.”
My guess is Bayless is setting the stage to give himself an opportunity to rip on the media and the Hall of Fame voters for several years running for not voting Lynch in. His shtick is pretty predictable. Lynch is a maybe. But Bayless is always an ass.
The only way Lynch being compared to Campbell is a valid comparison would be if people did no research on the latter at all.
I wish I could be paid money to spew nonsense like Skip Bayless. It must be so nice to be rolling in cash by saying complete garbage all the time.
Bayless is paid $ 4 million a year to intentionally shoot his mouth off, all the time knowing the responses, attention and criticism it will draw, thus ratings for ESPN.
There’s only one problem with that: I don’t watch the four letter network unless it’s broadcasting a game. I could get way more intellect about Canton in this very comments section.
I guess it’s easy for me to sit here and call him an idiot, etc. He probably laughs all the way to the bank. And nobody has ever offered me $4 million to yell stupid things. I’d like to think I’d take maintaining my credibility over the cash, but … who knows. Maybe he’s the smart one.
Well someone (actually plenty of them) must be watching him and put up with his clearly intended counter views on every single sports issue or he would not have the ratings to be on the air and making that dough.
Chuck Howley has been the most deserving senior candidate for years, but unfortunately Dallas doesn’t have a Hall of Fame representative to push his case. By contrast Detroit has two, Dave Birkett and Rick Gosselin, the latter an influential senior committee member who was reportedly instrumental in pushing through old Lions Dick LeBeau and Dick Stanfel in recent years. Maybe if Dallas had a HoF rep then Howley could finally get the Canton shot he deserves.
Lest some uninformed lurker looking for facts here be misled, my last post was dripping in bitter sarcasm.
The part about Gosselin. The part about Howley being the most deserving senior candidate is true.
I cannot make Howley my first priority if it were solely up to me as to who would be nominated by the seniors. However, if it was up to me, I can assure Howley wouldn’t have to wait much
If I had my say, Al Wistert would be the Senior Nominee for 2017.
Then Kramer and Robinson for 2018.
Howley could be the nominee for 2019. He does belong, just that the other three should get their turns first.
I agree with everyone’s analysis.
Bayless also argued this morning T.O. didn’t deserve to be in the HOF because he destroyed the 3 teams he played for. LOL I never thought I’d find a TV Sports persona that irritates me as much as Howard Cosell. Skip does that for me. lol He comes across as a pompus ass just like Howard. I get tired of Stephen A. ‘s race baiting too but he’s entertaining and carries First Take.
One question I have is do you guys think it was harder for for a RB to gain yards when Earl was a Back or nowadays? Might be hard to answer because the game the game was geared towards the run but now the players on D are bigger and faster.. Well maybe not faster. :)
Offense in general is easier now, including the running game. RBs don’t tend to carry offenses as much as they used to because teams are passing so much more, but that passing does open up the field more, and has caused defenses, on average, to focus more on stopping the pass, leaving a little more room to run.
The salary cap has also had an impact. Teams no longer tackle in practice, which often shows on game day in reduced defensive quality, and they rarely see the need to spend an expensive second contract on a RB given that position’s diminished role, opting to draft new ones instead, making it harder for RBs to accumulate long career volume stats.
I disagree that they should necessarily induct the oldest guy first. Howley is more deserving than the other players mentioned, and pretty old himself anyway. But I do agree with those who said it was a mistake to nominate to lesser deserving players who recently passed away in a sympathy vote. When the more deserving players are old and still alive it makes not screwing around and wasting time all the more important.
that should read two less deserving players
When you consider Howley, if inducted next August, he’d be 81, if still with us. Conversely, were they to nominate and elect Wistert, he’d be 96 on the day of his induction if he were here to see it.
That’s a big difference.
Also, yes, Howley should be in Canton, but you are very unlikely to convince me he deserves it more than Johnny Robinson does.
Robinson belongs too but his stats and accolades are inflated by virtue of playing in a league of expansion teams that clearly wasn’t on par with the NFL by the team the merger was negotiated and the first Super Bowl played.
By contrast Howley played for an expansion team in the established, premier league, and was instrumental in their rise to the elite.
Robinson’s first Pro Bowl came the year after his team (then the Dallas Texans) had won the AFL championship. Howley’s first Pro Bowl came before the Cowboys had yet had their first winning season. Robinson would have made his share of Pro Bowls if he had played in the NFL (I do think he’s HoF worthy), but probably not quite as many. and it certainly would have been tougher to land first team All NFL selections than it was to receive first team All AFL selections.
Plus Howley was a Super Bowl MVP.
I meant by the time the merger was negotiated.
FWIW, Ken Crippen’s film study website has reports on both Robinson and Wistert. Robinson ranked 8.2, the highest of the 26 players they have done so far. Wistert ranked 8.0, tied for second with Lavvie Dilweg. He hasn’t done a report on Chuck Howley yet, though given the general rumblings I’ve heard, my guess is he looks excellent in film study and would grade out well also. I think we’d be hard pressed to find better choices than these four.
Dick Stanfel and Spec Sanders got the worst grades at 7.4
You need to know the AFL wasn’t an inferior league, hence Super Bowls III and IV. Robinson played no small role in helping the Chiefs win its only big game. He had a fumble, an interception and three broken ribs. You could’ve made the case that he, not Dawson, should’ve been the MVP of that game.
Robinson was drafted by the Lions in the NFL, but as a safety, he would’ve been blocked by Yale Lary. Thus, he became a Chief.
Need I also remind you of his comparison to Larry Wilson? He was a first ballot who made two All Decade, 75th Anniversary and the case could be made that Robinson was better. He definitely has the numbers.
I’d also say with certainty that Robinson is the best DB who isn’t in without question. Howley is one of the best linebackers not in.
People having this conception the AFL was inferior all these years later is quite troublesome to me.
Found the post I was looking for by Matt Reiser at the pfraforum. He and Ken are the primary folks who run Ken Crippen’s website, and as I understand it he contributes a good bit to the film breakdown. He posted this regarding Senior candidates not in the HoF and is both a small-hall guy and a die-hard believer in film study as a primary case component:
“Top 6 based on what I’ve seen, studied, and for two on how obvious they seem based on what I’ve read:
Kenny Easley, Johnny Robinson, Al Wistert, Chuck Howley, Duke Slater and Lavvie Dilweg.”
Again, FWIW.
This is what Rick Gosselin had to say a few days ago. ” rom Rick: I thought we picked the five most deserving modern-era candidates. If both Marvin Harrison and Terrell Owens are Hall of Fame wide receivers, then you go with the one who was in his third year or eligibility. That was Harrison. Kevin Greene ranks third all-time in sacks behind only Bruce Smith and Reggie White and it took him 12 years to get in. Tony Dungy has the sixth best winning percentage all time behind five Hall of Fames — Madden, Lombardi, Allen, Halas and Shula — and Belichick is right behind Dungy in seventh. Orlando Pace was an all-decade selection in one of the greatest offenses of this era. Brett Favre was a slam dunk, which is why his entire presentation and discussion lasted six seconds. Next year LaDainian Tomlinson is eligible. He’ll be the Brett Favre of that class. Keep an eye on Joe Jacoby. He reached the finals for the first time in his 18th year of eligibility. He had some support. He’ll be back on the ballot again next year, I’m sure, and will have more support with Pace out of the queue. “
Corey, of course the AFL was inferior, hence Super Bowls I and II. It’s ludicrous to pretend that an entire league made up of expansion teams WASN’T inferior, unless you have no respect for the NFL whatsoever. The AFL obviously got better as years went on, but by 1966 it still wasn’t on par with the NFL. Lamar Hunt himself said that the only true game played between the pure AFL and the pure pre-merger NFL was Super Bowl I. The Packers dominated the Chiefs, the best AFL team, and said convincingly that there were several NFL teams better than they were. There were.
The merger was a gradual process that was negotiated and began in 1966. After that year, aside from the Super Bowl, you get the common draft, which quickly pushed talent in the two leagues toward equality. The AFL kept its name for a while but no longer existed as completely separate entity. Its teams got better fast. Even so, just because the best AFL team could beat the best NFL team by 1968 and 69, that doesn’t prove the average AFL team was as good as the average NFL team then. It wasn’t. We know this because the old AFL teams didn’t do that well in 1970, after the merger was completed, the modern conference alignment established, and interconference play introduced.
Since the NFL was clearly the superior league throughout at least most of the 60s, it’s reasonable to not treat AFL accolades from that time as being completely on par with NFL accolades. It’s also reasonable to figure that even a great player like Johnny Robinson probably would have made a couple or so fewer Pro Bowls and first team All Pro selections if he had been in the NFL all that time.
Oh, and there’s no senior era LB candidate whom you can credibly argue is more deserving than Howley.
Actually, yes there is. Maxie Baughan, Randy Gradishar and Robert Brazile are all linebackers who you could argue are more deserving. I know you’re a Cowboys fan, so maybe that’s why you like Howley. I’m a Bears fan, but you don’t see me pushing so hard for Fortunato, who wouldn’t be a terrible choice but he’s not near the top.
All I see is that you pointed out Super Bowls I and II, which was won by one of football’s greatest dynasties. The other two teams were not Lombardi’s Packers and lost. Lambeau also celebrated pre-Super Bowl titles in 1961, 1962 and 1965.
The truth is that I don’t know for sure how Robinson would’ve done compared to other defensive backs if he was in the NFL all those years, but for senior candidates, give me Robinson over Dillon, Patton, Boyd, Harris, Shell, Hayes, Woodson, Fischer and anybody else who has escaped my mind at the moment.
I also gave you facts about when the common draft started, and made a cogent logical point about the AFL being an entire league of expansion teams that you entirely ignored. The Packers barely squeaked by the Cowboys and some other teams on their way to annihilating the AFL champion in the first two years after the merger process started. which is why they could honestly say there were several NFL teams better than the top AFL team. That was true at least until the last couple of years of the decade, after Robinson had already gotten most of his accolades.
It’s fair to say that great HoF safeties like Larry Wilson and Willie Wood, who were gobbling up the accolades in the superior league when Robinson (finally) started receiving them in the inferior league, would have retained many of those awards if Robinson had played in the NFL, and that certainly Robinson wouldn’t have scooped up ALL the same accolades he got in the AFL.
Baughan, Brazile, and Gradishar only made 2 first team All Pro selections while Howley made 5. Plus none of them won a Super Bowl, while Howley did and was named MVP in another one. So no.
And spare me the fandom crap. I’ve spent as much time arguing for Sterling Sharpe’s induction here as I have for anyone else. I also argued against Terrell Owens’ first ballot induction, despite him being a Cowboy for a few stat studded years. Plenty of non Cowboys fans rate Howley at or near the top of most deserving players still not in. The facts speak for themselves. You don’t have to be a Cowboys fan to see them.
Looking objectively (which is what I always try to do), I would indeed rank Chuck Howley as the most deserving Senior LB not in (5/6/none, plus reportedly would grade really well in film study). Would probably next go with Maxie Baughan (5/9/none), Robert Brazile (5/7/70s), and Randy Gradishar (4/7/none), wishing I had good study information for them to supplement. But I decidedly think they all belong in.
Note that I include all 1st team all pro organizations and not just AP (except for Sporting News into the 80s because they chose so many players that it’s really just equivalent to all-conference).
Howley does have the Super Bowl MVP. The others beat him out in Pro Bowls, which meant more back then. Brazile has All Decade, which is very important for a player who wants to get in. Gradishar, like Howley, is a 20/20 member but also a DPOY.
Also, we don’t know for sure on Robinson. What if he did indeed play for the Lions? He was blocked off by Lary.
This is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the NFL Hall of Fame. He is clearly overqualified for Canton and was honored first team AFL All Time Team.
I must point out, Robinson started earning his First Team All AFL and AFL All Star honors around the same time Wood and Wilson did. It’s not like Robinson was a late bloomer.
AP first team All Pro selections are more prestigious and meaningful than Pro Bowls. Gradishar has one more Pro Bowl than Howley while Howley has 5 first team AP All Pro selections to Gradishar and the others’ 2. It gets to a quantity versus quality of accolade issue. Howley was judged to be the very best at his position for fully half a decade, straddling the 60s and 70s.
Howley should have been 1960s All Decade (not sure why Larry Morris is there, but Dave Robinson made it because he was a Packer, and the others were MLBs, that being a more prestigious position back then). But if All Decade status was that important then Cliff Harris and Drew Pearson, who are on the 70s All Decade team with Brazile, but are first team unlike Brazile, should have been moved to the highest priority for induction long ago.
Robinson made the “All Time” team of a league that existed independently for about 7 years and wasn’t on par with the NFL. My concern with the timing of his Pro Bowls was that even in a league where every team had only started in 1960 (and he was playing by that year), and his own team had already won a championship in 1962, he didn’t start making Pro Bowls until 1963. His own teammate safety Dave Webster was a Pro Bowler and first team All Pro in 1962, and several other teammates had been selected as All Pros going back to 1960. By contrast Howley, who was already great, was overlooked his first few years because he played on an expansion team that was competing in an established league, and therefore a team that wasn’t very good. He got noticed and rewarded with accolades before the Cowboys had their first winning season. He wasn’t riding team success against lesser competition.
I agree that it’s the Pro Football Hall of Fame and that Johnny Robinson belongs in Canton. I even think Robinson would have probably had a HoF worthy career if he had played solely in the NFL. I’m just pointing out that it’s wrong to assume AFL accolades, especially from the early to mid 1960s, are completely equal to NFL accolades on a 1 to 1 basis.
Okay, by your logic, how do you know Robinson wasn’t overlooked like Howley was?
Frankly, I don’t have a problem with Brazile, Harris or Pearson. All Decade isn’t the be all, end all, but I think it’s a big box to check off on your resume if you’re a Canton hopeful. Some don’t always get it right. Heck, Marino never was All-Decade.
I think Harris should wait behind Robinson, though and I think for receivers, top priority should go to Billy Howton, Del Shofner and Cliff Branch before turning attention to Pearson. It’s not that Pearson is unworthy, but I see a hierarchy and Pearson doesn’t crack my top three senior receivers like the aforementioned do.
I found myself less enthusiastic about the seniors this year given the circumstances. Usually they’re my favorite part.
Here’s my stance on recent selections and whether they should be in or not.
Chris Hanburger – Absolutely
Les Richter – Yes
Jack Butler – Yes
Dick Stanfel – Yes
Curley Culp – No
Dave Robinson – No
Claude Humphrey – Yes, but I wasn’t crazy about him
Ray Guy – Absolutely
Mick Tingelhoff – Absolutely
Ken Stabler – No
I feel you could say some undeserving players were selected with deserving players left out.
They elected Stabler when they should’ve elected Branch. They should’ve gone for Kramer but went for Robinson. They didn’t go for Robinson when they should’ve and instead went Culp. Even Ed Budde, Taylor or dare I say Tyrer would’ve been decent choices over Culp.
The voters elected Swann when they shouldve elected Andy Russell. They elected Namath when they should’ve gone for either Grantham and/or Talamini.
Sadly I’m not in charge of this stuff, because there’s a lot of cleaning up they could do. They can’t get rid of those already in but they can correct omissions and I absolutely loathe the rotating basis of one and two every other year.
I just laid out my reasoning. Robinson was on a team that was already good (by AFL standards) before he started getting accolades. Howley started getting accolades before the Cowboys were good enough (in the tougher NFL) to have a winning season. Not definitive but an observation worth noting.
I agree with you on All Decade status also being worth noting but not being the end all be all, which is why I think Howley is the most deserving Cowboy, with Harris and Pearson at #2 and #3. I think Robinson, who accumulated his accolades in an inferior league, should wait behind Howley.
Going over the senior candidate selections since 2005, in my view almost 1/2 of those had qualifications surpassed by senior candidates still in the pool – including those who have been the senior candidate pool for 20 years or more already. Plus slots were lost (including years when there was one slot and those with two slots) where a senior candidate was not elected – thus also resulting in future slots taken up by a candidate nominated a second time (or in the case of Stanfel 3x), again more “wasted” slots. Then we have modern candidates not selected when they were finalists, including some in the final 10 or even final 5, that end up in senior candidate slots within a few years (Humphrey, Wright, Hayes). Overall the HOF voters, seniors and full committees, have done a poor job over the last 20+ years in managing candidates and those elected, including not filling the full allotment of slots, resulting in back up of candidates into a pool where those candidates have continued to linger from their 60s into their 80s. I recently read an interview with Chuck Howley where he indicated he is suffering from dementia -remembering he was not able to attend SB 50 in person to be recognized as a SB MVP. Understanding that he is unlikely to be the only member of the seniors pool with serious life threatening health issues, my concern again is that the senior candidate position could very easily turn into an annual memorial if the committee does not start to move forward the best qualified candidates who we (and all the committee members already know) are deserving from the pre 1970s era before they are all gone from us.
I saw him from the Super Bowl. He still looked marvelous for his age.
If it’s a memorial, it’d be a disgrace. I hope not. It was sad Tingelhoff couldn’t speak because of it.
Maybe we’re not entirely happy with things, but it’s better than the supposed corruption.
I’m not concerned with modern era players. Almost all of them will eventually gain election. It’s just prioritizing. It’s the Senior pool that I’m concerned about.
“but it’s better than the supposed corruption. ”
??
So am listing all Seniors since they first went to the two-person format. First listed whether they were elected or not, then after the slash whether I think they belong in or not. Y=yes, N=no, U=on the fence.
Bob Brown. Y/Y
Bob Hayes. NY/U
Bennie Friedman. Y/Y
Fritz Pollard. Y/U
John Madden. Y/Y
Rayfield Wright. Y/Y
Gene Hickerson. Y/Y
Charlie Sanders. Y/N
Marshall Goldberg. N/N
Emmitt Thomas. Y/N
Dick LeBeau. Y/N
Floyd Little. Y/N
Claude Humphrey. NY/Y
Chris Hanburger. Y/Y
Les Richter. Y/Y
Jack Butler. Y/Y
Dick Stanfel. NNY/U
Curley Culp. Y/U
David Robinson. Y/N
Ray Guy. Y/Y
Mick Tingelhoff. Y/Y
Ken Stabler. Y/N
The “undecideds” are really hard for me to pin down. I guess they’re unenthusiastic yeses more than anything else.
Paul hadn’t we discussed before of backroom politics in Canton during the 1980s??
Bias and favoritism and voting blocks, yea it came up over the years here so I am glad with the addition of more voters and with retirements resulting in rotation in of younger and more diverse votes. Just no sure if the results are that much better epecially in regards to seniors.
My way to early 2017 modern candidates prediction:
Coryell (40% confidence)
Jacoby (80% confidence)
Lynch (60% confidence)
LT (100% confidence)
Warner (80% confidence)
Post 2016 elections I am hearing plenty of discussion that Warner and Jacoby are next deserving and set for next step of election with 2016 positioning them (general consensus that Warner was close to final 5 this year). Also Coryell momentum continues with first jump into final 10, but will it be enough to get coaches elected in back to back years, some uncertainty there. Lynch is well positioned as the best defensive candidate from the final 10 in 2016 and he could break the current -and to soon to get worse – logjam at the Safety position. I understanding adding Dawkins into the mix for 2017 may have impact here, but do voters see strong need to elect Dawkins, given issues with Safeties, when 2016 election already moved Lynch into that position?.
I think if voters can get past two RBs and offensive heavy class, TD could be in play, if not 2017 he would move to top of returning candidates for high probability of election in 2018.
If they are responsive to 2016 criticism, TO is possible (plus he will hit another barrier in 2018 with Moss on the ballot – oh would that be fun discussion!!).
I do not foresee any jumps to election for other 2016 finalists or 2017 1st time ballot candidates.
Paul if you had to guess who would be your 15 finalists for 2017? Who do you think makes the top 10 in 2017?
Have already posted who I think is likely to make the regular finalist list above. As for cutdowns, here’s my guess:
First five cuts: James, Taylor, Dawkins, whoever the last two additions are.
Next five cuts: Owens, Faneca, Atwater, Andersen, Coryell.
Voted in: Jacoby, Lynch, Warner, Davis, Tomlinson.
Most likely variables: Taylor makes the cutdown to 10 and Andersen doesn’t. Coryell is elected and Davis is cut from 10 to 5.
When will Kevin Mawae make the cut as a Finalist?
2017 Final 15
Morton Anderson
Steve Atwater
Don Coryell
Terrell Davis
Brian Dawkins
Alan Faneca
Rodney Harrison
Edgerrin James
Joe Jacoby
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
John Lynch
Terrell Owens
LaDainian Tomlinson
Jason Taylor
Elected (5) Predictions
Don Coryell
Terrell Davis
Joe Jacoby
John Lynch
LaDainian Tomlinson
opps forgot Kurt Warner, so ignore previous post:
Final 15
Morton Anderson
Steve Atwater
Don Coryell
Terrell Davis
Brian Dawkins
Alan Faneca
Edgerrin James
Joe Jacoby
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
John Lynch
Terrell Owens
LaDainian Tomlinson
Jason Taylor
Kurt Warner
Elected (5) Predictions
Don Coryell
Joe Jacoby
John Lynch
LaDainian Tomlinson
Kurt Warner
Brad,
That is a tough question. I am guessing 3 to 4 years for making it as a finalist. The Center position tends to get ignored by voters although not to the degree of Kickers or Punters. What I look at is when Steve Hutchinson first gets on the ballot and the amount of head coaches could be finalists.
While Dungy got voted in the Hall of Fame, it is still possible that 3 coaches can be finalists in a year. Right now, Don Coryell and Jimmy Johnson will be finalists in 2017 for sure. The catch is there is a possibility of Bill Cowher being the 3rd coach as a finalist.
It will be interesting to see if the voters think Bill Cowher will really stay retired or not. The other problem with his candidacy will be that several coaching contemporaries of his now have at least as many titles and lots more wins, Tom Coughlin, Mike Holmgren, and Mike Shanahan among them.
I do not think HOF voters will be in a hurry to move to elect coaches just because Dungy got in this year. Coryell advanced into the final 10 for the first time which means he is primed for election soon, and likely JJ will return to the final 15 perhaps as early as 2017. Not sure sure any coach also makes the final 15 any time soon.
Speaking of HOF will Revis make the All Decade Team of 2010s? It would push him closer to first ballot. Although won’t count for 2010s, his 2009 season was one for the averages. Shut down TO,Moss,Andre Johnson,Steve Smith,Chad Johnson,and others. As for the coaches you are talking about, I do think Cowher has a shot at being a Finalist this year. When will Mike Shanahan make it äs a Finalist?
ages not averages haha.
Yes for Revis on the all-10s team, Definitely getting in the HoF, could be first ballot depending on how the rest of his career plays out and who else is first-time eligible. Again, I just don’t see Cowher as a finalist yet unless he stays retired for the next couple years, and even if so, not so sure he’s a finalist for a good while given what I said above. Shanahan does have a lot of wins and two SB titles but his reputation isn’t the strongest despite this, most exemplified by his toxic stint in Washington.
Further reading about Shanahan revealed he had a horridly toxic two-year stint as the Raiders coach in the late 1980s
Since 1998, Ton Dungy becomes only the third coach to be elected as a modern candidate (Marv Levy 2001, Bill Parcells, 2013), so beyond recent finalists Don Coryell and JJ, I doubt HOF voters are interested or in a rush to elect more coaches over deserving players.
Do you guys think its possible that coaches will be put in the contributor category after the 2019 elections?
I would hope as I doubt there are enough contributors to continue to warrant 1 or 2 a year (whereas there are enough seniors for 2 a year)
First off, the hall voters came up with a great class of 2016. The only surprise was that there really were no surprises.
For 2017, I would have to almost completely agree with Paul’s predictions with the exception of Ty Law getting the bump to finalist over Kevin Mawae. My guess is that LT, Jacoby, Lynch and Warner are pretty close to being locks, but once again it’s that 5th spot that up for grabs.
I don’t think Dawkins or Taylor make it right away, and can’t see Davis making it with LT on the ballot and no decent RB’s coming up over the next few years. The two wildcards are really Faneca and TO. Did they only miss the cut to 10 this year because they were first-time eligibles, or are they really behind guys like Davis and Coryell in the pecking order?
I’d like to see Coryell make it next year, and Johnson reenter the finalist list. If the hall can induct those two, I don’t think there’s much of a rush to get another coach in for awhile. Personally, I’m not a huge fan of Cowher’s credentials, and I don’t think the hall will push him forward as long as he keeps flirting with a return, If there was going to be another coach that made the jump to the semis, my choice would be Dick Vermeil.
BSLO who would you like to be the Senior and Contributor Nominee in 2017?
I think for the senior nominee, they will go for a defensive player this time around. If they go that route, the two best options would be Johnny Robinson and Chuck Howley…but I wouldn’t get my hopes up. There was a quote last year that stated that the committee wants to see guys that have “been in the room before”, so following that logic, it would make sense that a guy like Lester Hayes or LC Greenwood might net a nomination. There are no CB’s or DE’s expected to get elected next year, so the shoe would fit so to speak.
My guess is that they will go with LC Greenwood.
For the contributor slots, I’d be very happy to see Gil Brandt get a nomination. He’s an absolute no-brainer, and after inducting two GM’s and an owner, it would be nice to see a talent evaluator get their due. For the second slot, I’d like to see another GM since I think hey are quite underrepresented. My vote would be for Bobby Beathard, though the “previously in the room” argument would favour George Young.
I’ll throw my guesses out as Gil Brandt and George Young.
ill second that about greenwood brandt and beathard
Jared Allen (136 career sacks) has announced his retirement.
First time eligibles 2021:
Peyton Manning?
Charles Woodson
Jared Allen
Calvin Johnson?
We’ll have to wait and see on a few others. Kevin Williams, Andre Johnson, Wes Welker. Steven Jackson.
I think the 2021 class could 2 or 3 first ballot hall of fame players. Jared Allen. Charles Woodson is First ballot. If Peyton retires, he is going to be first ballot also. Jared Allen has a chance to be first Ballot. If he’s not, I don’t expect him to wait long to get inducted since he was one of the top defensive ends in his era.
There is only 2 reasons Jared Allen could wait a short time. The first reason is Jared Allen’s production after he turned 30. While Jared had good seasons at the age of 30 and 31, his production really slipped after he turned 32. When Jared was in his 20’s, he was on his way to be a 150-170 career sack player if his production really didn’t slip like it did.
The 2nd reason is Jared is on the same tier as Michael Strahan, Jason Taylor and Julius Peppers in terms of defensive ends.
There was a quote last year that stated that the committee wants to see guys that have “been in the room before”,
Interestingly the opposite has also been stated in recent years: give guys that have never been in the room before to have their cases heard in front of the full committee, I believe that was the case made for Guy, Robinson, and Culp.
But with only 9 senior committee members, and rotating to only a selected 5 each year who have the final vote leading to selection of the senior candidate, different opinions and priorities as to reasoning and the candidate selected is going to vary from year to year.
Personally I would rather see players who are deserving but not yet discussed in front of the full committee have a chance over those who have in the past and were not elected.
Paul who would like to see be named the Senior Nominee in 2017?
Paul who would you like to see be named the Senior Nominee in 2017?
Tony Dungy is having Donnie Shell present him for the Hall of Fame. Could you guys see Donnie Shell being a Senior Nominee in the Future with Dungy supporting Shell for HOF like Rod Woodson did for Dick Lebeau for the Hall of Fame?
Chuck Howley
With a 3(1)/5 profile Donnie Shell does not have a very strong profile compared to many senior candidates, and with some apparent push back from HOF voters on more 1970s Steelers HOFers, I am not that sure he currently has strong support for selection over other more deserving candidates. LC Greenwood 2/6 70s team is a stronger candidate, who may also continue to be hampered by the same issue of already enough 70s Steelers in the HOF.
If all decade teams hold weight (and they appear to for many HOF voters) and if the Committee wanted to “clean up” senior candidates from the 1970s they best look first at the only two 1st team members of the 70s all decade team not elected to the HOF in Drew Pearson 3(1)/3 and Cliff Harris 4/6. There may be more deserving senior candidates then Pearson and Harris, but before Shell and Greenwood, Pearson and Harris are more deserving.
Here’s a list of Senior-eligible safeties with honors:, listed more or less as I’d rank them:
Johnny Robinson 6/7/allAFL
Kenny Easley 4/5/80s
Jimmy Partton 5/5/none
Cliff Harris 4/6/70s
Bobby Dillon 5/4/none
Eddie Meador 3/6/60s
Deron Cherry 3/6/80s
Joey Browner 4/6/80s (will hit Senior pool next year)
Donnie Shell 3/5/none
Nolan Cromwell 3/4/80s
Jake Scott 4/5/none
Dick Anderson 3/3/70s
Ken Crippen’s site has film study rankings for Robinson (8.2, the highest of anyone ranked at any position) as well as Dillon and Meador (both 7.7, about middle,of the pack).
I’d draw the in-out line pretty much right about Shell. Regardless, Shell is not even the highest priority within his own position, never mind overall. Dungy’s just shilling for a former teammate.
Typo — that should read Jimmy Patton above.
bachslunch, that’s a a great rundown of the safeties in the seniors pool. I think that the hall really needs to get the first 6 on your list inducted for the position to not be considered woefully underrepresented. I’m a bit less crazy about Cherry, Browner and Shell, but without inducting them, the 80’s would be largely ignored.
Cromwell, Scott and Anderson and probably no’s for me as well. I’m interested to see what happens when LeRoy Butler inevitably hits the senior’s pool. He is to this point the only first-team member of the 1990’s all-decade team that hasn’t been at least to the semi-finalist stage.
What does everybody think about Donovan McNabb’s eventual Hall of Fame chances? He’s eligible for the first time next year, and I think he’s probably the most on-the-fence QB candidate in either the senior or modern era pool. He doesn’t have great counting numbers or a Super Bowl ring, but he is a 6-time Pro Bowler with 98 career regular season wins, 9 playoff wins, and a 2:1 TD:INT ratio.
I ran him through the analysis I do every year of the modern era candidates for the hall of fame, and he came in a healthy 3rd place behind only Kurt Warner and Boomer Esiason. He was comfortably ahead of the next tier of QB’s consisting of Randall Cunningham, Rich Gannon and Phil Simms.
I don’t think McNabb has any chance for the PFHOF,, no SB wins, no all pro, no all decade, no great record single seasons (never passed for 4,000 yards, one 30 TD season), no great or top 10 career passing numbers. Is there any current PFHOF QB with that type of profile? Once voters get past 6+ HOF QBs from the 2000s era, others may be consider but I do not see McNabb getting in. I see him as more Danny White (not getting in) less Kurt Warner (2x MVP, two SBs, SB MVP getting in soon).
The good news is that both Leroy Butler and Darren Woodson have a lot of eligible years left before they hit the Senior pool, 10 and 12 years respectively. The bad news is that they’ll probably need every bit of that eligibility and still might not get elected. Hope they make it in, though.
I’m also not especially taken with Donovan McNabb as a HoFer. Like Boomer Esiason, John Brodie, and Roman Gabriel, he’s good but will fall short.
I have a hard time seeing Mcnabb getting inducted before the Senior committee. The 1999 to 2009 time period had a lot of good, very good, and legendary Quarterbacks.
The 1999-2009 has 4 first ball of Fame quarterbacks with the first of them being inducted is Brett Favre. Brett was a type QB in 2 different decades. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees are First Ball Quarterbacks.
Mcnabb is in the same group of quarterbacks as Philip Rivers, Eli Manning, and Ben Roethlisberger is. Tony Romo isn’t quite in the same group since injuries have affected his stats a lot.
The truth is not all the Quarterbacks in the Mcnabb, Roethlisberger, Rivers, and Eli Manning Group is going to get inducted.
My problem with Mcnabb is his stats didn’t standout, he had durability issues, and he had problems taking his teams past the NFC championship game.
What I said about the NFC Championship can be used against Andy Reid at the same time.
If we look at the current makeup of the seniors pool and project forward to point at which McNabb would enter that pool his 0/6 profile is not that strong when candidates with multiple all pro and all decade teams are in the pool, some still waiting decades later for election. I doubt his case or situation is going to improve much in the senior pool which likely then will have many of the same types of candidates as today – with qualifications better then McNabb.
The QB position is tricky, because it’s probably the most likely position to produce a borderline inductee. It’s also a position that is heavily represented in the HOF, and really only has two even somewhat significant snubs at the moment in Kurt Warner and Ken Anderson.
Warner is likely going in next year, and Anderson has previously been a 2-time finalist in the modern pool and a finalist in the seniors pool. I’d be surprised if he wasn’t inducted at some point over the next 10 years regardless of whether he’s the biggest snub or not.
The reason that I brought up McNabb is that I think he will at some point in time become the new cut-off point for QB’s. I completely agree that there is no one in the hall of fame with his credentials, but there are also very few players outside the hall with his credentials.
The biggest issue I have with his resume is that it lacks an x-factor. He doesn’t have a Super Bowl ring, elite counting stats or an overwhelming postseason award resume. What he does lack though is a resume-killing stat like John Hadl, Roman Gabriel (both have 0 playoff wins), Boomer Esiason (losing career record), Phil Simms (2 Pro Bowls), Jim Plunkett (0 Pro Bowls) or Rich Gannon (very short peak).
Out of the players currently eligible, his 6 Pro Bowls are 2 more than any non-AFL QB not in the hall, he has more career wins and has played in more playoff games than any QB not in the hall of fame, his counting stats aren’t spectacular but they don’t tank his chances, and you can chalk up much of his lack of great single-season stats to injuries.
I’m not saying that he would be a great choice, but I think that there’s a time in the not so distant future where he will be arguably the best QB not in the hall of fame. Whenever you are at the top of the heap at your position, your chances are definitely better than average of eventually getting the call to the hall.
I am not sure so senior committee members focus on nominated by position, so I doubt McNabb gains an advantage there. Instead I look at the seniors pool over the last 20 years and so how many candidates with SB wins, all pro, all decade qualifications are still waiting, and projecting ahead 20 years thinking McNabb will be in a similar pool, that could even include other QBs from his era and close to his era as equally qualified.
Frankly given what I have seen with senior selections in the last 1-15 years and knowing how deep that pool is (and will be in the future) I would not suggest it was a possible step to PFHOF election for anyone – as many appear to never get out! You end up there and your chances are not great.
Donovan could have All Proed in other eras. He had to deal with Peyton, Brett,Brady,Rodgers,and Brees, 5 of top 10-12 QBs ever. He could get in via Senior Nominee.
Does not matter whether he would have been all pro in other era, all that matters to the voters is what he achieved during his actual career. When we have all pro and all decade players in the seniors pool who have been waiting decades for election out of the pool I would not place much hope in McNabb ever getting out of it. He will stay among the very good to good QBs and not HOFer. Given what we see and know about the seniors candidate pool I would never suggest it as a likely venue to the HOF for anyone, just too many delays and uncertainty in there, may get in that deep pool to never emerge again.
Andy when will the site publish the predictions for the Hall of Fame Class of 2017?
John McClain who is on the Senior Committee admitted in an interview that Robert Brazile finished 3rd behind Dick Stanfel and Ken Stabler last year for the Senior Nominee’s. He believes Brazile will make the Hall of Fame in the next 2 to 3 years. Here is a link to the interview http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/houston-sports-talk/e/chronicle-texans-beat-writer-john-mcclain-42008429.
Thanks for the information on where Robert Brazile finished in the Senior Committee last year. This shows there is a senior committee selection problem or a voter problem in terms amount of times Dick Stanfel was nominated by the Senior committee.
I have no problems if Robert gets selected over Jerry Kramer. Brazile is one of the linebackers from the Senior committee side not inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
At a 5/7 (70s) profile Brazile certainly ranks among the top of the current senior candidates and as a LB comes from one of the deepest high quality positions among the senior candidates (I have 6 LBs from 1960s-70s era on my top senior candidates list). So I would be pleased to see that group represented, and would be hard to argue against Brazile, although personally I still think Howley would be a better selection from seniors and from among that group. At least based on that profile he would be a much better pick them some recent senior candidates and many others in the pool, including some supported by others in recent years. Given that 2017 is a one senior candidate slot election year I would not be greatly opposed to his selection and I know his candidancy has had support and interest on this board and publicly over the years..
Here a few comments from Rick Gosselin from his chat today. ” Another of the great oversights. But Karras has the same problem as Howley, Harris and Pearson. The Lions had a senior candidate in the Class of 2016 (Dick Stanfel) and two others since 2010. The senior committee cannot serve as a clearing house for one franchise. Karras belongs in Canton — but, like Howley and Jerry Kramer, that moment may still be years down the road.” Here is another one about Cliff Harris and Drew Pearson ” Both are in the senior pool. Cliff has been a finalist once and Drew has never been in the room to be discussed. Drew will have a tough time with the explosion of 100-catch seasons and 1,000-catch careers. His stats will pale in comparison. And Cliff will have a tough time because this committee doesn’t enshrine safeties. The last safety enshrined to actually play in the NFL was Ken Houston, who retired after the 1980 season., So this committee hasn’t found a safety in the last 36 years that it considered worthy of Canton. I’d probably say Harris stands a slightly better chance than than Drew of getting in because at some point the door for safeties has to be opened. And Cliff should be one of the first standing at that door.” Here is a third one “Chuck has been discussed in recent years. There are a handful of Cowboys who deserve consideration for the franchise’s next senior slot: Howley, Cliff Harris, Drew Pearson, Harvey Martin. How would you stack them? The other issue is that the Cowboys have had two senior candidates in the last 11 years, Rayfield Wright and Bob Hayes. The senior committee is not a clearing house for any one particular franchise. Like the Cowboys, the Jets, Colts, Chargers and Titans have all been around since 1960. But those four franchises have never had a senior candidate in the 44 years we’ve been selecting senior candidates. Every franchise has 2-3-4 players it believes has been treated unfairly by the HOF selection process, that’s a senior pool of 70-80 players right there. When you bring out only 1 or 2 per year, that creates a very slow-moving queue.”
Over the last several years Gosselin has been all over the place with his PFHOF comments, and as to using the senior candidate pool for one franchise apparently the senior committee does not feel it a problem given the number of Lions, Chiefs, Raiders elected in recent years. Plus he points to Titans(Oilers) as having no senior candidate in 44 years – forgetting Curley Culp (3 all pro teams and 4 pro bowls with Houston)
And Alex Karras (0/4 60s)??? Gosselin has become a real A**hol* by pimping for Lions senior candidates, while totally dismissing equal or more qualified Cowboys. He actually thinks that after three Lions and two Cowboys as senior candidates over the last 11 years, that Karras even belongs in the discussion????- where his is support for Howley, Harris and Pearson who are all much more deserving then Karras????. I say we forget about any more Lions senior candidates for the next several years and look at other teams, same perhaps for the Raiders and Chiefs.
And too bad the Jets, Colts and Chargers have not had senior candidates – go ahead and put them up against everyone else in the senior pool, this should not be about whether every team needs to be represented but that the best qualified is deserving. I could care less if a team thinks it has 2-3-4 players it feels have been treated unfairly by the HOF voters, the best should get in not based on team quota approach.
For me it is apparent that a few senior committee members including Gosselin have stupid views, bias and motivations for certain players and teams that creates unfair discussion and decisions, especially when there are only 9 members on the committee and rotation of only 5 each year voting on a candidate to nominate.
If Gosselin gets Karras selected over the dozen or more qualified candidates (because Detriot is underrepresented) during one of his years as a voting member, it will be a complete joke to the process, HOF and especially the many more deserving, and getting older, senior candidates like Howley, Robinson. If Gosselin continues to push for more Lions instead of Cowboys (his place on the HOF committee is based on his media position in Dallas as how all the 32 voters from cities are determined), then the PFHOF board needs to seriously consider appointing a different Dallas representative.
Let it be known that the HOF voters got themselves into a jam with Cowboys by their actions during the 2004 HOF election when Hayes, Wright and Harris all made it to the final vote and were all rejected – yes that year when up to 5 moderns and 2 seniors could be elected, on the final 7 ballot only 4 were elected, with Hayes (senior) plus wright (last year as modern) and Harris (last year as modern) were rejected. Yes the HOF seniors committee did the right thing by quickly turning around and nominating Hayes and Wright as seniors that were elected, but it created a completely unnecessary delay and backlog into the seniors candidate pool.
Karras’s honors profile is actually 4/4/60s and he grades out really well at Ken Crippen’s website (7.9). I’ve come around on his candidacy given the number of other gambling/point shaving types now in (Layne, Hornung, Schmidt, Stabler), but I don’t see him pushing to the head of the line, either.
Another concern I have with Karras and sorry to be blunt about this, but he died in 2012. Do we and the HOF voters want to make the senior candidate elections a memorial, instead of focusing on more deserving candidates who are still alive to experience the honor. I am not saying he should not be considered but why not recognize those still alive who are equally or in many cases more deserving, rather than this focus on getting certain teams represented (and if that a reason why the Lions who as we know have had 3 recent senior candidates). For Gosselin to even suggest Karras in the context of possible senior candidates and in the same discussion as Howley (and perhaps even Harris and Pearson) – and raise the team recognitions using Karras as example is an insult to the process.
Agreed that the living should be getting Senior priority, the oldest especially. We listed examples earlier if memory serves.
As a Jet fan the biggest snub is Joe Klecko. One of the best in league at three different positions. Anthony Munoz said he up there with the best he has ever face, Anthony Munoz perhaps the best offensive linemen ever. Also said “Joe was the strongest guy I ever faced. He had perfect technique — hands in tight, great leverage. My second year, 1981, we went to Shea and beat the Jets, 31-30, but he was such an intense, smart player, I knew I was in a battle. He was the leader, the guy who kept that unit together.” 2nd snub would be Larry Grantham. Then for sure,Mark Gastineau.
And Winston Hill is the only one that has a glaring resume. Marvin Powell needed another 2-3 PBs and perhaps 1 more 1st Team All Pro selection. Borderline in my book.
Am all for Winston Hill as a HoFer nowadays. Profile is 1/8/allAFL and he grades out really well at Ken Ceippen’s site (7.9). Marvin Powell is no slouch at 3/5/none, though Hill strikes as the bigger of the two snubs-wise.
Art Powell is one I missed. Short career but very productive. 4/4/All AFL with 81 Receiving TDs, only behind Don Hutson and Tommy McDonald.
“The Pro Football Hall of Fame amended its by-laws last year to allow members of the Hall – particularly members who work in the media – to participate in future voting as at-large selectors. And, as a first step, it had Hall-of-Famers James Lofton and Dan Fouts sit in as observers at this month’s selection meeting.”
http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/fouts-id-welcome-chance-to-participate-in-hof-selection/
Thoughts on next possible step, giving them a vote?
Paul I wouldn’t be surprised if they do that. There are a lot of hall of fame players who work in the media who want to vote. I do think their opinion should be heard and that coaches should be involve in the process as well.
I’ve never been a fan of having ex-players (or coaches for that matter) as part of the HoF electorate. Too often, they seem to be shills for their former teammates rather than objective voters. The example set by the various BBHoF Veterans Committees graphically shows the problem.
I guess with 46 current members of the HOF voting committee, adding 2-4 former players or coaches is fine by me since by number they would not have unfair representation or influence (BTW some current members of the committee are also not always objective and serve as shills or allow their bias impact their voting). Perhaps TO is available to join the committee since he appears to have the time and passion to continue complaining about the process?
It seems as though Al Wistert has just passed away.
Wistert apparently passed away yesterday at 95. No question he was one of the absolute worst HoF snubs, honors profile of 6/1/40s according to pro football reference. It’s utterly shameful the HoF let his case sit unaddressed for so long. He should have been elected years ago.
Peyton will announce his retirement on Monday per Chris Mortensen. Lock for 2021 Hall of Fame Class.
I think Al Wistert is now going to be a senior Committee Nomminee for the 2017 Pro Football Hall of Fame class. I am guessing this because Senior Committee picked Ken Stabler and Dick Stanfel last year after they died,
@packerfan4ver I get where your coming from. But has anyone been a Senior Canidate who died in a year they were nominated and it wasn’t during a summer month? I do think Wistert deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Clark Judge of Talk of Fame Network said that someone told him that he believes a Deceased Senior Finalist has to be dead for a year to be considered a finalist to get the emotion out of the decision.
The other reason I thought about was Rick Gosselin has proposed to the Hall of Fame an amnesty year to celebrate 100 anniversary of the NFL and Gosselin has proposed 10 candidates one in each decade. They seemed to be focused on Post 1950s candidates.
It will be telling how the senior committee handles the case of Al Wistert. At least for Stanfel and Stabler their names were mentioned as candidates in the years before their deaths (Stanfel was a 2x previous candidate). I am not sure whether Wistert has had that level of interest and consideration. Although the HOF does not release the annual finalist list of senior candidates, from other sources I have incomplete lists from 2012-15 with Wistert only appearing in 2014 (several others candidates appear on the each every year). But will emotion come into play and with only one senior candidate slot in 2017 does Wistert get advanced over clearly several other candidates more qualified and who had been considered more often by the committee in recent years. Does the senior committee which to turn the senior nominations into a memorial year after year, or start doing their job and advancing the best candidates from the pool while they are still alive to enjoy and appreciate the honor and experience.
I’m not sure how many other candidates are clearly *more* qualified than Wistert, though I can see an argument that some are *as* qualified. A postseason honors profile of 6/1/40s is darned good for a primarily pre-pro bowl era player, and in fact is likely in the running for the most 1st team all pro selections for someone not in the HoF. He’s also tied for the highest film study score at Ken Crippen’s website at 8.0 — that’s equal to Lavvie Dilweg and Johnny Robinson, who I’d rank alongside Chuck Howley, Duke Slater, and Kenny Easley as most deserving Senior.
Rob, that would be great if they indeed do an “amnesty” year in 2020. If it’s one per decade for folks not in, that’s an interesting scenario. They’ve got four more open Senior slots over the next three years, so hopefully we’ll see Howley, Brazile, and Robinson get in before then. If so, here’s a good way to slot them:
1920s: Duke Slater
1930s: Lavvie Dilweg
1940s: Al Wistert
1950s: Billy Howton
1960s: Jerry Kramer
1970s: Randy Gradishar
1980s: Kenny Easley
1990s: Karl Mecklenburg (or Mike Kenn if Meck sneaks in under the wire)
I could get behind that, assuming Howley et al have already gotten in.
Wistert would have made a better senior candidate then several others in recent years, but having not considered him (likely due to a short 9 year career, plus none of the voters seem to have problems assessing a candidate who played so long ago, before voters were even born). Unfortunately yet again the voters find themselves making another memorial selection.
The 10 player one per decade special seniors selection for the 100 anniversary of the NFL in 2020 is an interesting idea (I floated such a proposal for the recent 50th anniversary of the HOF). not so sure the PFHOF Board will agree, but perhaps.
I’m a bit interested to see what Hall of Fame support Logan Mankins gets as a Guard despite him not being a first ball hall of Fame Player in 2021.
I’m guessing he is going to be a Semi Finalist as some point and be a possible finalist.
I mentioning him because Logan has 7 Pro Bowls, 1 first all pro team and 5 2nd all pro teams in his 11 year career.
When it comes to Guards, you would have to start with the all decade teams, so unless he makes the 2010s all decade team, it will be a long shot with only 1 all pro selection since HOF voters tend to often dismiss the position.
Brian Waters has a compelling resume as well. He is definitely next up for 2000s Guards. Alan Faneca,Steve Hutchinson, Larry Allen,and Will Shields were of course ahead but all those are among top 5-10 ever.. Can Olin Kreutz make semi finalists someday? Not sure. Another Center from start of the century is Nick Mangold who has a HOF case better than Olin. Nick should make 2010s All Decade Team. IMO lock for at least 2nd Team.
The HoF is notably stingy with centers, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they elect Kevin Mawae and call it a day for the 2000s. My guess is whoever gets named the top 2010s center would have the next best shot at getting in. That may be Nick Mangold (4/7/10s?), or it could be someone like Ryan Kalil (2/5/10s?) or Maurkice Pouncey (2/4/10s?) depending on how well they age. Re the guards mentioned above, am thinking Jahri Evans (4/6/10s?) and Marshal Yanda (4/5/10s?) are the front runners ahead of Brian Waters (2/6/none) and Logan Mankins (2/7/10s?).
Calvin Johnson is officially retiring from the Lions. I think he will make the HOF at some point im not sure he will be a first ballot guy.
I think the 2021 Pro Football Hall of Fame ballot is very deep for players being eligible for the first time ever.
Calvin’s not a first ballot guy. There is question on how many Wide Receivers are going to be on the ballot at that point besides Reggie Wayne.
The other thing is Charles Woodson, Peyton Manning are first ballot players. Jared Allen could be first ballot also for that class. Based on the three players I mentioned, there isn’t any room for a 2nd Wide Receiver in that class.
Not sure why you are thinking 2 WR 1st ballot for 2021, likely looking at Manning and Woodson only, with Allen and Johnson taking 3-5 years to get in. Not so sure about Wayne as we are in an era of plenty of 900+ reception WRs, with more to come with several to appear on future HOF ballots within the next 5-10 years, and unlikely they all get into the HOF. Including Andre Johnson who could also be on 2021 ballot.
And just because a player is HOF quality like Allen, it does not mean automatic 1st ballot as there are likely to be other returning players on the 2012 just as deserving. Having three # 1st ballot HOFers in a given year is rare. Allen’s profile does not strike me as 1st ballot, although clearly he is HOF deserving.
Allen, Calvin Johnson, Wayne (and perhaps Andre Johnson) will all appear as 1st time candidates on the 2021 ballot, but I doubt any of them get elected that year. Manning and Woodson are the two 1st time selections for 2021 (having three 1st time selections is rare) and there will be strong returning pool of candidates as well.
WRs from this era are going to be challenge as many have 900+ receptions (could be five in the pool around 2021, plus Witten), and Calvin with 731 receptions, but the all pro teams; just like recent debates over the 1990s era WRs, it will take several years for the HOF voters to sort our those WRs and I am not so sure they all end up in the HOF after all is said and done.
I see Allen as a strong HOF contender, but not case for 1st year election.
Jason Taylor has a better resume than Jared Allen; as far as him being named DPOY,playing longer, and being versatile as far as running ability after he picks up a fumble, among other things. I see both as 2nd-3rd ballot HOFers. Jason’s teammate Zach Thomas with 5/7/00s has yet to make the semi-finalists. I hope he makes it soon because ballot is getting deeper and deeper; and he is well deserving of enshrinement.
Jahri Evans is a lock for 2010s All Decade Guard. I see him getting into HOF eventually even without another AP/PB. But, if he can get to 9 total PBs and another AP his chances go up greatly, rightfully so. What if Drew Brees and Tom Brady retire same year? Are both getting in? I say definitely. It happened with Steve Young/ Dan Marino and Warren Moon/Troy Aikman.
Reggie Wayne is eligible in 2020. He didn’t play last season.
Paul,
I didn’t 2 first Ballot Wide Receivers for 2021. I said 2 Wide Receivers in the same class and that isn’t the same as having 2 first ballot Wide Receivers.
Of courses some in the media and the public are already declaring the 2012 HOF class to be best of all time, assuming as many as 3 or 4 1st time selections, when the reality is that Manning and Woodson are the only ones. Allen and CJ, next in line, with likely longer waits.
Of course some in the media and the public are already declaring the 2021 HOF class to be best of all time, assuming as many as 3 or 4 1st time selections, when the reality is that Manning and Woodson are the only ones. Allen and CJ, next in line, with likely longer waits.
Projected 2021 class as “best of all time?” It is to laugh, and loudly — shows how much history those dummies know. The inaugural class of 1963 had Baugh, Halas, Thorpe, Nagurski, Nevers, Hutson, Lambeau, Johnny Blood McNally, Hubbard, Mel Hein, Fats Henry, Dutch Clark, Bert Bell, and Joseph Carr. No way any other year comes even remotely close.
If we ignore the special case of the inaugural class, what class do folks feel is the best of all time?
IN case you missed it, we (finally) did post our 2017 predictions: https://www.zoneblitz.com/2016/03/09/2017-football-hall-of-fame-inductees/
I’m very appalled they couldn’t elect Wistert when he was alive.
Of course this class won’t be best ever. But, if somehow Brees ,Brady,and Rodgers all retired too we’d have them in with Peyton at least, could be best ever if that occurred. .Anyway, I do think this is however, the deepest ballot for past 2-3 years. So many great players have yet to make semi-finalists /finalists. And to think we have to add in future: Reggie Wayne, LT,Hines Ward,Jared Allen, Charles Woodson,Patrick Willis, Steve Hutchinson, Calvin Johnson and others.
Peter King tweeted tonight that the Contributor Committee voted for ten finalists this week and the countdown from 10 to 2 will take place on August 16th.