As I’m sure most of you have seen or heard, the Hall of Fame officially announced the Class of 2011 tonight. Making the final cut were:
DB Deion Sanders
RB Marshall Faulk
Contributor Ed Sabol
DE Richard Dent
TE Shannon Sharpe
LB Chris Hanburger (Senior Candidate)
LB Les Richter (Senior Candidate)
So our thoughts on the class?
Well, we hit on Sanders, Sharpe and Dent, and it seems three out of five isn’t bad. Leading up to the announcement, I probably would have put Faulk on my list as well, as it made more sense to get at least one of the three backs out of the way right away. I would suspect Martin is next, although it wouldn’t shock me if he had to wait another year.
I’m still not 100% sold on Dent, although the career numbers are obviously there. To be fair, he mostly played before I was seriously into football, so I’ll have to give some benefit of the doubt on this one.
Sanders was a no-brainer, although I still think he’s lucky the voters don’t pay attention to unofficial stats like “willingness to tackle.”
I’m glad Sharpe finally made it in–as much as I wasn’t a huge fan of him due to his mouth, he clearly deserved it, and I’ve had him on the list each of the last couple of years.
I’m still a bit surprised by the Ed Sabol induction–unless he’s in poor health, it’s just shocking to me to see someone go from not even showing up on lists to suddenly going all the way through. And I do kind of feel like the Hall should have a special “contributor” label that doesn’t necessarily take the spot of a player. That being said, NFL Films is a huge part of the history and growth of popularity of the game, and I definitely don’t hate the election.
As for Hanburger and Richter, as per usual, I don’t know enough about them to really say since they played before my time–but I know they are better than last year’s senior candidates, and I’ll take the general consensus that I’ve seen in the comments that they are solid enshrinees.
On the flip side, I’m glad Jerome Bettis didn’t make it on his first try, in part because I just didn’t think he was a first ballot guy, and in part because my level of annoyance would probably be turned up a notch tomorrow with his Steelers in the Super Bowl. And being a Vikings fan that works with several Packer fans, my level of annoyance can’t get much higher for tomorrow’s game.
At the same time, I am still somewhat disappointed that Dermontti Dawson didn’t make it–must have something to do with my affection for offensive linemen.
I am still surprised that neither Tim Brown or Cris Carter even made it to the final 10–and that Reed still made it there ahead of them. I suspect the voters will (hopefully) do something about that logjam next year.
What say the rest of you? Anything particularly surprising for you? And don’t forget to check back to see our 2012 Hall of Fame Inductees post sometime in the next few days.
Loading ...
C-Mart 2012!!
I would say the big surprise was Sharpe over Carter. The momentum on Sabol has been growing in the last year and at age of 95 perhaps voters finally decided to do the right thing and get him selected as he should have been in years ago. Sabol is also not the only person to jump into the list of 25 semifinalists to being elected in one year, it happens often as voters push to get a player elected. And yes I agree the whole problem with contributors and taking spots from players needs to be fixed with a separate catagory for contributors every 2 or 3 elections (perhaps in place of one senior candidate).
Before the vote was announced I had finally settled on a list of Hanburger, Richter, Faulk, Reed, Sanders, Dent and Sabol. I was only one off. Of course, you only have my word on that.
I have to say that if I hadn’t found Zoneblitz, I may have only got 1 right. I would like to thank the regular commentators for imparting their knowledge. Zoneblitz is certainly one of the most informative sites when it comes to Hall of Fame discussion.
What does this year’s selection mean for future Hall of Fame classes? Here are my thoughts.
DB Deion Sanders
I don’t think Deion’s induction opens the way for any particular player.
RB Marshall Faulk
Unlike the WR backlog, it looks as though the votes have a plan for dealing with the RBs. I think it’ll be Martin next year and Bettis the following year.
Contributor Ed Sabol
I agree with Ed being 95-years old, perhaps the voters felt that time was running out for him. Does this make a special voting procedure for contributors more or less likely? I don’t think change will come as a result of this and the next contributor will have to wait a while, especially given the current backlog of players.
DE Richard Dent
As the voting approached, I became more convinced that Dent would get in. This year’s Bears’ D drew comparisons from the `85 D in some sections of the media and Dent’s name came up. He was also an honorary captain for the Bears in their NFC Championship game. It’s a good way to get his name in the minds of the voters. I also suspect that they knew that a D-line and linebacker backlog needed to be dealt with. I suspect next year we may see two from the group of d-linemen and linebackers be elected.
TE Shannon Sharpe
I’m not so surprised that Sharpe went in before the three WRs left on the ballot. However, I’m concerned as to how the voters will approach trying to relieve the backlog at the WR position.
I can’t really argue with this class at all. The only semi-big surprises for me were that Carter once again failed to make it to the cutdown to 10 players and no offensive linemen got in.
I really like that the HOF has stayed true to their word of getting more defensive players in. They’re doing a very good job of wittling down the backlog of modern-era candidates.
I was also intrigued by the fact that nobody really made a jump forward or took a step back this year in the pecking order, except Sabol of course. Carter, Haley, and Brown all stayed in the bottom 5, Reed, Kennedy and Dawson once again made the final 10 and two Final 10 guys from last year (Dent and Sharpe), made it in. My guess is that at least 3 of the Final 10 guys from this year will get in next year, with Kennedy having the best shot at induction.
I am thinking right now that the finalists for next year will be as follows (with the top 5 getting in):
*Andre Reed
*Dermontti Dawson
*Cortez Kennedy
*Bill Parcells
*Chris Doleman
Curtis Martin
Willie Roaf
Charles Haley
Cris Carter
Tim Brown
Jerome Bettis
Will Shields
Roger Craig
Don Coryell
Kevin Greene
Filling out the semi-finalists will be:
Aeneas Williams
George Young
Paul Tagliabue
Ed DeBartolo Jr.
Art Modell
Terrell Davis
Steve Tasker
Joe Jacoby
Donnie Shell
Ron Wolf
My ideal choices for the senior candidates would be Jerry Kramer and Johnny Robinson.
THis is supposed to be the Hall of Fame. Sorry but Richard Dent (1 All-Pro selection) just doesn’t make my cut. Was he a great player? Probably but Hall of Fame I ‘m thinking not. It seems that the some of the selections are mirroring what is occuring in our society-the bar is being lowered. Is he along the same lines as say Deacon Jones, Joe Greene, Bob Lilly, Reggie White, or Merlin Olsen? Hardly. If Chris Hanburger was so good, why didn’t he get in when he was eligible before?
@J Rok, to me Dent is the most controversial selection as well. In fact I think most of the Defensive Line logjam people talk about is made up of guys who are borderline. I don’t have a major problem with Dent getting in but his profile certainly is less compelling than some of the guys at other positions who were left out.
As for Hanburger, it’s a fair question. And he played before my time so I don’t have any personal opinions to offer on him. But from what I’ve read and from what his profile offers, it appears he is one of the guys who legitimately fell through the cracks during his eligibility. And I’m glad the veteran’s committee is there to correct some of those misses.
@BSLO, sometime in the near future I’m going to do a little studying up on some of the potential senior candidates, but my early leanings are the same as yours. Kramer and Robinson seem at quick glance to be the next most glaring misses from years past, IMO.
I think Ben hurt his Hall of Fame case a little. Not a good game for him. Aaron Rodgers looked great. Got the MVP, something Ben didn’t get. He could win more championships with his relatively young crew. Charles Woodson just increased his Hall of Fame chances. Claymaker is on his way and possibly Nick Collins. Claymaker has 2 quality seasons. Nick has 3.
Charles Woodson is 34 years old. He will probably play next year (if there is football). I don’t think he needs another Pro Bowl or won’t make it. Getting Defensive Rookie of the Year and Defensive Player of the Year is big and hasn’t been accomplished by a whole lot. And winning a Super Bowl just puts icing on the cake.
Woodson:
7 Pro Bowls
2 1st team All-Pro
3 2nd team All Pro
All Decade Team
Defensive Rookie of the Year
Defensive Player of the Year
Super Bowl ring
He’s well on the way to Canton.
Aaron Rodgers is now officially on the long-term radar.
For some limited insight as to the vote this year read Jim Trotters SI.com article from yesterday, especially the discussions voters have on candidates, clearly they are aware of the WR issue and the upcoming future candidates and their impact on this election.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jim_trotter/02/05/HOF.insider/index.html
Pete King also had some comments on the 2011 election in his MMQB today (see page 2 of link)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/02/07/super/1.html
I don’t think one loss in the Super Bowl hurts Big Ben’s HOF chances at all. It’s the body of work in the Regular Season and Playoffs that people look at. For example: Dan Marino won enough big games (8 playoff games) for me to judge his career as being HOF or not. Of course with Dan his stats blow you away so he’s an easy pick . Big Ben is easy for me too with a 10-3 or 10-4 Playoff correct. Dan’s record was 8-10. Damn that Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith!!!
There’s no falling through cracks for the Great Packer, Jerry Kramer . Jerry’s being ambushed at every turn. He was nominated the first 9-times eligible as a Finalist and in 1997 he was selected as a Senior Candidate only to be one of the rare rejections by the Voters for a 10th time. Did he piss off the wrong people? Really too bad but I’d say his chances at the HOF are cooked now. He remains a classy and eloquent man who speaks on behalf of suffering retired NFL players.
The same for the AFC’s Johnny Robinson who was nominated 6-times as a Finalist. We can only hope that he gets selected as a Senior Candidate like Hanburger.
I don’t know how Hanburger a 9-time Pro Bowl and 4-time All-Pro player could of fallen through the cracks. I certianly remember him well as one of the better players on the “over the hill gang” in Super Bowl 7 which held a Dolphin’s Offense to only 14pts. Hanburger was ironically never on the List of 15 before making it this year. Amazing!!!
IMO when the Voters selected the rather weak D-Lineman of Fred Dean into the HOF than they blew a wide open hole for Richard Dent to be selected. Dent IMO had a better overall career.
Jerry Kramer should have been inducted first ballot IMO. I have his book Instant Replay. Looking at his stats, he was great. He was on the All Time Team at one point, 50th Anniversary Team.
Johnny Robinson was great too. Started out as a Flanker. Did ok. Than played Safety. 6 straight First Team All Pro seasons later, 8 total all pro teams. Two Seasons of 10 Int’s. Led the AFL and NFL in Int’s. Only missed 4 games in his career.
Who in the following eligible players for next year will make the Hall of Fame eventually?
QB: Drew Bledsoe
RB: Tiki Barber
RB: Corey Dillon
WR: Keyshawn Johnson
WR: Rod Smith
G: Will Shields
I’m picking Will Shields. Is Larry Allen a first ballot Hall of Famer? 6/11/1990’s/2000’s. 1 ring. One of the best linemen of all time. I think he is.
Brad of that list I agree only Shield but it may take him a few years, as will Larry Allen as HOF voters are not that likely to elect a G or T for that matter as a first ballot HOFer.
No one commented on my Shane Lechle post. But, he’s a 6 time first team all pro. He has at least 4 more seasons. Could end up with 7 or 8. Would be pretty hard to not put him in. I understand he’s a punter, but that is being dominant. If Devin Hester has another All Pro season, he could be on the fast track to the Hall too. Time tells everything.
Will Shields will make it in within 3-5 years. With neither Dawson or Roaf getting in this year though, he may have to wait a bit longer.
Tiki Barber is probably the only other player listed that will be a perennial name on the preliminary nominees list. The others had nice careers but don’t measure up as Hall of Famers. Most of the rest will probably be on next year’s preliminary list, but will be afterthoughts come 2013.
Guards rarely ever make it in on the 1st ballot (John Hannah and Bruce Matthews are the only recent guys I can think of), but I think that if anyone can break that cycle, it’s Larry Allen. He was named to 11 Pro Bowls at 3 different positions (I’ll admit some were more based on reputation), 6 first-team all-pro teams, 2 all-decade teams and he owns a Super Bowl ring. He was pretty durable for his entire career, missing just 21 games over 14 seasons, and he consistently played at a high level throughout his career, making the All-Rookie team in his rookie year and being named a Pro Bowl alternate in his final season. In terms of icing on the cake, he’s also regarded as one of the strongest players in NFL history (he could bench press 700 pounds!), giving him a possible leg up legacy-wise over other lineman candidates.
The only things that hurt Allen in my opinion are the amount of competition at his position (Dawson, Roaf, Shields, Ogden, though I have to believe one of the 1st 3 guys gets in next year) and the depth in 2013’s first-time class (Strahan, Ogden, Sapp). I think in the end though, they’ll go with Strahan and Allen as 1st ballot guys that year with Ogden also having an outside chance as well. I think Sapp will have to wait an extra year or two. It’d be a nice touch to see him and Derrick Brooks get inducted together in 2014.
As for Lechler, I fully agree with Brad. Despite the fact that he’s a punter, as far as I’m concerned he has surpassed Ray Guy as the best punter of all-time. To be named to 6 first-team AP teams and 2 second-team AP teams as a punter is simply ridiculous. It’s an extremely tough position to get multiple post-season awards at, let alone that many! It’s not like any of them have been reputation awards either, as his punting average is 1st all-time by almost a yard and he’s been a pretty good directional punter as well. It’s hard to argue for him to be a 1st-ballot Hall of Famer, but I think he should get in within 5-10 years. If he doesn’t get in, then they might as well stop voting for special teams players. Ray Guy is a guy that many fans get very riled up about when it comes to Hall of Fame snubs, but he’s got nothing on Lechler in my honest opinion.
jerry kramer and randy gradishar as senior nominees for class of 2012!!!!!
I also like Randy Gradishar as a Senior list nominee, but I think the other should be either Johnny Robinson or Pat Fisher. Although it is disturbing to not know why Jerry Kramer has nor been put up again.
It may be a while before Jerry Kramer comes up again for Senior consideration, as he was a regular finalist 9 times and a Senior nominee once without being elected. There may be a sentiment (not necessarily unreasonable either) that there are plenty of Senior-eligibles who have never gotten a chance (Al Wistert, Jimmy Patton, Maxie Baughan et. al.).
Agreed that Johnny Robinson should be in the HoF. But I do not think Pat Fischer should be getting brought forward before other DBs who look more worthy such as Patton, Robinson, Bobby Dillon, Jack Butler, Abe Woodson, Bobby Boyd, Eddie Meador, Dave Grayson, Cornell Green, Lemar Parrish, and Cliff Harris. Fischer’s postseason profile of 2(2AP)/3/none is meager compared to the others listed. He’s a long-career, high lifetime INT, low honors type of DB like Dick LeBeau and Emmitt Thomas, neither of whom I think should be in the HoF.
Billy, I would love to see Randy Gradishar get nominated, but I’d be very surprised to see them put up another LB as a senior nominee next year after putting up 2 this year. I think that they will probably nominate a DB this year, and probably a WR or OL to balance things out.
bachslunch, you make a good point with Kramer and Robinson. They both were finalists several times as modern-era candidates (and as a senior nominee in Kramer’s case), so it’s reasonable to say that they’ve had their chances, so maybe they should wait awhile. If the committee will put in borderline cases like Thomas and LeBeau, pretty much any of those DB’s you listed should be able to get in if nominated. Personally I’d be fine with any of those names.
One thing I’ve noticed in the past couple of years is that they’ve tended to nominate players at positions where there isn’t a current logjam. That might deter them from putting up a WR, OL or DL candidate. With the current senior’s backlog, I think you have to put up guys that you know will have a good chance to get in.
Maybe we’ll see another LB or 2 DB’s get nominated if that’s the case, because there certainly isn’t much to go with at QB, RB or TE. They’ve never named a true QB as a senior’s nominee to my knowledge, they have pretty much milked RB to death and aside from MAYBE Raymond Chester and Riley Odoms, there are really no worthy Senior candidates at TE.
If Shane get 9 first team all pros, than I think BSLO will agree with me, he would be first ballot worthy. Looking at Jimmy Patton’s resume, I am surprised he isn’t in. 5/5/none. Not bad at all. Dick Stanfel,Lavvie Dilweg, Ox Emerson, among other who have gotten over looked too.
No punter will ever be a 1st ballot selection. Selectors have enough issues with multiple all pro OG and S and at least those players get selected at some point. Only one pure kicker is in the HOF and no pure punter has been elected so let’s not get to carried away with the special team players, that includes Tasker and Hester.
If Lechler was a 9-time first-team All-Pro, he’d be first ballot worthy, but I still think he’d have to wait for a slow year to get in. There are simply too many voters that view punters, or any other ST player for that matter, as part-time players who are less worty of induction than other players. I think Lechler and guys like Tasker, Guy, Morten Andersen, etc. will and deserve to eventually make the HOF, but I would have a hard time backing any ST player as a 1st-ballot inductee.
I actually only view 7 current players as 1st-ballot Hall of Famers if they retired right now: Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Ray Lewis, LaDainian Tomlinson, Tony Gonzalez, Champ Bailey and Ed Reed (and coach Bill Belichick). That’s a pretty select group so maybe I’m biased, but I think first-ballot status should only go the absolute best of the best. Even though Lechler has been an absolutely fanastic punter, I’d have a hard time putting him in with that group of players.
BSLO, I like your list of 7 current 1st ballot HOFers, but I would probably delete Bailey and add Antonio Gates with Drew Brees, Brian Urlacher, Jason Taylor, and Dwight Freeney very close as well.
As for next year’s class, I think it safe to say that three or four of this year’s 6-10 will be inducted. Personally, I hope it is Kennedy, Dawson, and Reed to help “clear the backlog.” The other two spots will likely go to some combination of Parcells, Martin or Bettis, and Roaf or Shields.
The one player that could receive considerable support that hasn’t to date is Aeneas Williams. He has post-season honors of 8/4/90s with another 2nd team all-pro as well. His candidancy to date has been hampered by Rod Woodson / Deion Sanders and playing for the woeful Cardinals. Now that Woodson and Sanders are in and no other DBs coming up for a while, Williams should get some attention (Peter King’s “hall of very good” comment notwithstanding).
Finally, while talking about the future class of 2013, Ogden is the most likely first ballot player from that year, although I believe there will be others. He was just ranked as the 72nd greatest player in NFL History. Larry Allen by comparison was 95, Michael Strahan was 99, and Warren Sapp wasn’t ranked. Speaking of Ogden, he was one of three Ravens on the NFL’s list along with Ed Reed (88) and Ray Lewis (18). That means that the Ravens, as a 15-year old franchise, have had more top 100 players than the Redskins a franchise that dates back to 1932 (Baugh (14) and Green(75)). Unfortunately, although a Redskins fan, I can’t disagree.
It’s hard to make the top 100 greatest list. Like very hard. Just think top 100 players. There is 53 players, give or take, per team. You to be named as one of the top 100 is better than being in the Hall because there is over 230 players in the Hall. I think if you are on the list, you should be first ballot. IMO
After a 8 year career Gates is currently a 3/7/2000s team player which would already him a HOFer plus he likely has another 2-5 prime years left in his career.
As to the various OL on the ballot and in future years the competition will be tight and very interesting in terms of order of election:
Roaf 2011 6/11 90s 00s (election in 2012!)
Shields 2012 9/12 00s (election in 2013?)
Ogden 2013 6/11 00s (election in 2014?)
Allen 2013 6/11 90s 00s (election in 2014? 2015?)
Pace 2015 5/6 00s (election in 2016 or beyond)
Jones 2015 6/9 00s (election in 2016 or beyond)
All the more important that Roaf and Dawson get elected in 2012 or 2013.
I remind people that Randall McDaniel (9/12/90s) was not a first ballot selection. OL have a tough time as first ballot selections and the vast number of newly eligible players in the coming years is going to create greater challenges.
And Parcells will not be elected in 2012 as a first ballot selection, he may take another 2-3 years for election.
My order for WR’s is: Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Andre Reed, Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, Issac Bruce. I hope 2 out of Cris Carter, Tim Brown, and Andre Reed are in before Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, and Issac Bruce are eligible. Not including Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, and Hines Ward because they’re still “active”. The next “generation” will include Andre Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith(Panthers, he is only 31 believe it or not. has at least 4 more seasons left), Larry Fitzgerald, and possibly Roddy White and Brandon Marshall. My front runners are: Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, and Larry Fitzgerald. But we will see.
If Devin Hester is a 5/5/00’s or he has 20 total return TD’s (or could do both) HALL OF FAME. If he has another 3 TD return season, He would probably be first team All Pro. 4/4 , with 17 return TDs.
Brad, in your WRs to watch, you forgot DeSean Jackson. He already has more 40+ yard scoring plays than any player in NFL history. On his current pace, he would replace Paul Warfield as the greatest deep threat in NFL history. Not saying he will, just that he has a chance.
My bad. I meant to say: Players who have years left, but are going to retire within the next 2-5+ seasons. you know what I mean? DeSean Jackson is well on his way to the Hall. Obviously it’s early. But yes, he is probably the best deep threat in the history of the NFL. He averages 18.2 yards per catch. That is really unheard of in today’s football. Look at the top WR’s in the NFL, and there not in his league really. And throw in good punt returning. He doesn’t have a whole lot of receptions. I don’t think it should hurt him at all. YPR(yards per reception) is stellar. To make the Hall(not saying for everyone) you need a “breakout” year. And in 2009, DeSean had 12 total TD’s (9 receiving, 2 punt returns, 1 rushing). I would classify that as a break out season (so far in his career). Revis in 2009, had as good of a season as anybody(relative to there given position). His AV (Approximate Value) that year was 22. 17th best since 1950. Pretty good in my book.
Bachs lunch
i just have 1 simple question
what is ur problem with emmitt thomas and dick lebeau please tell me
In his MMQB to day, Feb 14th, Peter King discusses the criticism of the selection of this years class
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/02/13/mmqb/index.html?eref=sihp
Paul, thanks for posting the link. It’s sad and ironic, actually, that there has been so much vitriolic griping directed at the HoF voters this year, as this is arguably the best class voted in in a good few years now (I’d have voted for them all except Richard Dent). As far as I’m concerned, they did exceptional work this time around.
Robert Ewing, my problem with Dick LeBeau and Emmitt Thomas is that they would appear to be significantly less worthy than several Senior-eligible DBs currently not in the HoF. LeBeau’s postseason honors profile is a paltry 0(0AP)/3/none and Thomas’s is 2(1AP)/5/none (that’s 1st team all pro selections/pro bowl selections/all-decade team selections). Compare with a host of other Senior-eligible DBs currently not in, including:
Johnny Robinson — 6(6AP)/7/AllAFL
Cliff Harris — 4(3AP)/6/70s
Jimmy Patton — 5(5AP)/5/none
Lemar Parrish — 3(1AP)/8/none, and fine KR
Abe Woodson — 5(2AP)/5/none, excellent KR
Bobby Dillon — 5(4AP)/4/none
Jack Butler — 3(3AP)/4/50s
Cornell Green — 4(3AP)/5/none
Bobby Boyd — 4(3AP)/2/60s
Dave Grayson — 6(4AP)/6/allAFL
Eddie Meador — 2(2AP)/6/60s
I fail to see why any of them got a leg up here, except for the fact that they have a lot of lifetime INTs. And I’m not convinced that any DB with lots of lifetime INTs and poor profiles should be elected before any of the above. Will explain further on this point if asked.
The argument that LeBeau’s HoF case is significantly strengthened by his coaching record is questionable. His record as an assistant coach in Pittsburgh was indeed excellent, but he was a bust as both assistant coach and head coach in Cincinnati, which accounts for about one-third of his career in this regard. If you want to make the case that LeBeau deserves to be in the HoF because he invented the zone blitz, I say he should have been voted in as a contributor, not as a DB. Thomas also has some assistant coaching on his resume, but I’m not aware that his career is even at the distinction level of LeBeau’s, plus there’s no “innovator” boost for him.
Will be interesting to see if the seniors committee stays on their defense trend and moves from LBs to DBs for 2012 selections. There certainly seems to be a strong interest in getting more defense players elected to the HOF and the pool of senior candidates, especially DBs, seems stronger then the offense. Plus surely the seniors committee can see the building number of RBs, WRs, and OL on the modern candidate list that also needs addressing.
Thank you for posting that link Paul. I read that article this morning and would have to agree with bachslunch’s assessment…why the heck is this year’s class causing so much uproar?
There have been countless complaints and articles written about the need for more transparency, the need to includes players/executives in the voting process, the need to disclude writers from being voters, etc. and I simply have no idea where it’s come from.
Look I agree that they potentially opened up a can of worms by electing Sabol (which highlights the need to separate contributors into their own category, which is the ONLY change I’d like to see in the voting process), and that they probably should have inducted a receiver and maybe Dent’s credentials don’t look as good as some of the other defensive players, but those are all relatively minor complaints that have mirrored similar situations that have come up in the past.
And seriously, after the media complained for years that Dent wasn’t in, suddenly he’s the target of criticism… and what’s with the hate for Chris Hanburger? He’s the best senior candidate they’ve inducted in years and yet he’s getting heat for being unworthy? I don’t see any of those same comments about Les Richter! A lot of this probably has to do with the incorrect perception that Hanburger blocked someone like Cris Carter from getting in, which anybody who takes 2 seconds to read the selection process knows is NOT the case! I can’t figure out the backlash at all, they had a tough decision to make this year and I think they did a good job. The system is not broken.
Also for the record, I don’t see how players or executives would be any less biased than than the media, except for when it comes to candidates that were cold toward the press. I’d be fine with expanding the voting body to include some hall of famers or executives, but I’m really not sure that that would cure any bias that exists. Do you really think that for example Jerry Rice isn’t going to go into the voting room and push mostly for Roger Craig, or for other wide receivers? I don’t.
I think it is driven by writers and readers (including those posting on websites and blogs) who are always looking for an opportunity to attack the systems and the voters. Unfortunately we live in an age in which the internet provides an easy means to make and sustain such attacks. In this case it is driven by many people who simply do not understand the voting process (such as as the separation of the senior candidates), that with the limited numbers some players are going to have to wait a few years to be elected, and not everyone (including Carter) are first ballot selections. People are complaining about Carter now, it was Monk a few years ago, and in the coming years another poster child for their attacks will arrive after Carter is elected.
Take an honest look at the voting process for the HOFs of hockey, baseball and basketball and ask yourself who has the better system. Even through the football HOF is not perfect, and there have been plenty of changes in recent years to the process, I challenge anyone to honesty look at the alternatives and think they would be big improvements. Advice and suggestions from players and team executives, including HOFers (which the seniors committee does solicit) is fine but a greater bias would be introduced by allowing peers to vote.
Looking at it more and more, I am even more convinced Kurt Warner is a Hall of Famer. I understand he didn’t have a long career, but he sure was productive:
32,344 passing yards, 208 TD’s to 128 Int’s. 65.5 completion %, 2nd all time. 2x NFL MVP, 1x Super Bowl MVP. Led the NFL in completions 1x, completion % 3x, passing yards 1x, passing TD’s 2x, and Paser rating 2x. He is one of only 2 QBs to throw for 100 passing TD’s with two different teams. Led two different teams to the Super Bowl. Holds the top 3 passing yard records(game) in Super Bowl history. And his life story is as amazing. Pretty impressive resume I’d say.
Forgot to add:
Most yards passing, Super Bowl (Career) – 1,156
Most yards passing, Playoffs (Single Season) – 1,147 (in 2009).
Most touchdown passes in a single postseason
Highest career completion percentage, playoffs – 66.5
One of only 2 quarterbacks to complete 80% of his passes in two playoff games (tied with Tom Brady)
Highest rate of games w/300+ yards passing (min. 100 games played) – 41.9% (52/124)
Most Yards Passing in the first two games of a season
Most consecutive games w/300+ yards passing – 6 (tied w/ Steve Young and Rich Gannon)
Most games with a perfect Passer Rating.
Only NFL quarterback to throw 40 touchdowns and win a Super Bowl in the same season.
Only quarterback to throw for over 14,000 yards with two different team
And there are others.
I think Kurt Warner will have the most interesting case of any upcoming players.
Personally I think Warner should eventually get in. You make a great argument for him Brad, but I think the fact that we was really only even above average for 6 seasons of his career will mean a long wait. Sure he was a top 10 or even top 5 QB in each of those 6 years, but it’s hard to say if that’s really enough.
In terms of his peers, I would put Brady, Manning, Brees, McNabb (don’t laugh every other QB with over 100 regular season wins is in or guaranteed to be in) and probably Roethlisberger in ahead of him. If they decide to induct a lot of QB’s from this era, like they did with the 80’s/90’s QB’s, then he stands a chance. He’ll be in for a tough fight though.
Another thing that may hurt him, fairly or not, is his fumble rate. I have never seen a non-scrambling QB fumble as much as him! He sits 14th on the all-time list of fumbles, but everybody around and ahead of him were either scramblers (e.g. Cunningham, Elway, Culpepper), played forever (e.g. Favre, Krieg, Moon), or just plain suck (Jon Kitna).
From the decade of the 00s it would appear to me the likely HOF order would be Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger, Brees, Warner, then McNabb; with perhaps only 4 or 5 elected not all 6. Also it is looking very likely that all except Warner and McNabb still have plenty of time (another 4-5 years) to improve their case. McNabb would need at least one SB win and some all pros to move up this list and pass both Brees and Warner. But at age 34 I am thinking time is running out for him.
Jon Kitna had a pretty good year this year surprisingly. Overall career, yeah he was bad. I mean, two seasons of 4,000 back to back is pretty good. But 168 tds-163 ints. Not good. Kurt Warner’s two MVP’s and Super Bowl MVP is pretty impressive. He is number 90 on the Top 100. Pretty good to me. I think he can , yes CAN be first ballot. Probably not. But, we will see. Hey, the Hall has put a kicker in first ballot. So, they have done crazy things. Shane Lechler could be scary. As in, if, and, its a big IF, but, if he gets a total of 9 first team all pros, I don’t know how you can’t put him in first ballot. Devin Hester needs at 5 total Return TD’s and he will make canton IMO. 20 total returns is a high number. He will play another 3 seasons, at least. Chicago can’t have someone like him hit the market sometime soon. Bears don’t really have a great WR corp.
Philip Rivers has a better resume than Eli Manning, correct? IMO YES. Eli has a ring , yes, but it’s not all about rings. Titles are a team accomplishment. We consider Dan Marino as one of the greatest QB’s of all time, he has no ring.
Philip Rivers
Passing Yards: 19,661
Passing TD’s: 136
Int’s:58
Season’s of 60+ completion %= 5
4,000 yard seasons:3
NFL passing yard title:1x
Eli Manning
Passing Yards: 22,646
Passing TD’s:156
Int’s:113(2x Int NFL Leader)
Seasons of 60+ completion %= 3
4,000 yard seasons: 2
Eli has 20 more TD’s, but Philip has 55 less Int’s.
Champ Bailey is a 10 time Pro Bowler,a couple on per reputation yes, but I would say maybe 3 max, and he has made 3 First Team All Pros(6 total all pro). Also a member of the 2000’s All Decade Team. Is he is a sure shot Hall of Famer?
A different player, who I think is a sure shot despite his position, is Brian Dawkins. 4/8/00s. He wasn’t a ball hawk like Ronnie Lott or Ed Reed. However, Brian was a great blitzer in his prime. He also recorded 35 forced fumbles. Ed Reed has 10. Ed Reed is a first ballot without a doubt in my mind. Is Darren Sharper making Canton? To me it’s a little tough. 63 Int’s and 11 returned for TD’s. Led the NFL in Int yards 3 seasons, with three different teams. 3 season’s of 9 Int’s is tough to not make Canton. His 2/5/00s isn’t really bad. I have no idea how he made 2nd All Pro playing in only 8 games and starting one.
In conclusion , it’ll be interesting what happens.
Chris Hanburger was a very stellar player for the Redskins in the 1960s and 1970s and probably should have been there a long time ago. As much as I like Deion Sanders – that shying away from tackles and hits bothers me a bit. A Hall of Famer should be an all around great player, not one who was just a great ball-hawk and had quite a few interceptions. He was also a great return man. I’m ok with the other selections especially Marshall Faulk who has over 12000 yards of total offense.
Most of the people complaining about the selection this year (including those in the media) are completely unaware of the rules for the election especially that the two senior candidates are nominated and elected separate from the modern candidates. So it makes no sense to compare the qualifications of Hanburger to Carter for example.
I suppose the debate over the election of Sabel over Reed or Carter at least has some reasoning to it, except that many feel the HOF is not just about players but the history of the game. And no change to the voting rules or committee membership is going to change those debates (unless contributors like senior candidates are nominated and elected separately).
And since Reed (final 10) finished higher then Carter (final 15), the Carter supporters appear that they will have another field day when he is not elected again next year!
I was mad that between Andre Reed, Tim Brown, and Cris Carter, none got elected.
Re Deion Sanders: he was not just a ball-hawk, he was (at least according to Dr. Z, who is pretty knowledgeable on such things) along with Jimmy Johnson one of the two best pure cover cornerbacks in NFL history. When you cover a receiver that well, you’re not going to see too many QBs throw in your direction, and if nobody throws in your direction, you’re not going to be making a lot of tackles. His extreme prowess as cover back and kick returner is plenty reason enough to get him in the HoF.
And if your cornerbacks are leading the team in running play tackles, that says a lot bad about your d-line and LBs, doesn’t it? Sanders mostly played on good teams during his career, if memory serves, so other folks took primary responsibility here.
Besides, even if we buy into the idea that Sanders didn’t tackle well, he’s hardly alone among players from the last 20-30 years, and not just among cornerbacks. That point was brought home emphatically during the shabby tackling display put on by pretty much the entire Saints defense in their recent playoff loss to the Seahawks during Marshawn Lynch’s 67-yard TD run. Sorry to say, one sees problems like this all the time in NFL games, though not normally on such a concentrated single-play meltdown.
Mick Tingelhoff is way past due. 6x Pro Bowler, 5x First Team All Pro(5 out of .6 seasons). Played in 240 consecutive games( Which I believe is the longest for a center). He was never a finalist. Another person who I find interesting is Paul Krause. 81 Int’s, 3/8/none. Made the Hall of Fame as a Senior Nominee. Which I find strange. He has a great resume.
Brad E., Paul Krause actually was not a Senior candidate when he was elected to the HoF, though he did get in fairly late in his candidacy eligibility (14th eligible year, 3rd time as finalist). Not sure what the delay was, though similar things have happened to other DBs equally for unfathomable reasons (Roger Wehrli elected at 20th eligible year and 2nd as finalist, Willie Wood at 13th eligible year and 10th as finalist, Mel Renfro at 14th eligible year and 4th as finalist).
Agreed with you about Mick Tingelhoff, who for reasons unknown was never once a finalist despite 6 pro bowl nods and 7 times named 1st team all pro by one organization or another (5 by AP as well as some other organizations, plus one additional year each via NEA and Pro Football Writers). He definitely belongs in.
Commentary I have heard about Tingelhoff was that he was manhandled in the Vikings Superbowl loses, not that I agree with that assessment but wonder if the voters share that view.
If postseason play hurts you for the Hall, than Dan Fouts shouldn’t be in. He is in really based on his regular season stats. Not postseason(12 TD’s to 16 Ints in the postseason. In his first game he got picked off 5 times and last postseason game he got picked off 5 times as well). Not exactly good numbers. He is making Mark Sanchez (9 TD’s to 3 Ints) look like a Hall of Famer :). Just kidding.
Here is my opinion about Super Bowl ring(s): If you have it(Super Bowl ring(s)), than it should help your stock. If you don’t, it shouldn’t hurt your stock.
This might be a stupid question but; Will there be a Hall of Fame class next year despite there might not be an NFL season?
Yes, it is my understanding that the NFL induction ceremony and the selection process for the following year will go on regardless of whether the owners and the players are stupid enough to let this wipe out an entire season of games.
Andy-Thanks.
If Floyd Little is in the hall with a 1/5/none, than Billy Wilson should be considered, 1/6/none.
Also, Del Shofner has to be inducted before BIlly Wilson. 5/5/60s is a strong case. He was Hall of Fame QB Y.A. Tittle ‘s favorite target.
there better be a 2012 hall of fame class next year despite a shortened nfl season, if not, i’ll be pissed.
There will be a nfl season in 2011 guaranteed, neither the players or owners are going to walk away from $ 9 billion – monies they would never get back.
I think Jimmy Orr is an underrated player. Now, the “eye test” when it comes to Pro Bowls and All Pros, yes it doesn’t look good. But, as a WR, he was pretty good if you really look at it. He was a great receiver via stats, as far as yards per catch.
Brad, agreed that there are a lot of unfortunate HoF omissions at WR, a position the voters seem overly strict with.
Del Shofner is one of many I think belongs in, but like some other worthies such as Mac Speedie, Sterling Sharpe, and Lionel Taylor, his relatively short career is a bit of a hurdle.
Also agreed with Billy Wilson as worthy, as well as Billy Howton, Harold Jackson, Harold Carmichael, Cliff Branch, Drew Pearson, Stanley Morgan, Henry Ellard, and Irving Fryar (add in KR credit here).
This of course doesn’t count the deserving Cris Carter, Tim Brown, and Andre Reed, all of whom I think will indeed be elected in the next few years.
With so many good names above, it’s harder for me to get behind Jimmy Orr in such company. He’s very good but strikes me as a shade lower than these other folks.
I didn’t have a problem with the Hall of Fame class of 2011, but I did have a problem that no Wide Receiver was elected between Cris Carter, Andre Reed, and Tim Brown. Tim Brown, IMO, overall has a better resume than any other WR not in the Hall of Fame. Not only was he a great WR with 9 straight 1,000 receiving yard seasons, but was a good returner (5th most punt return yards all time, 5,320 PR yards). 9x Pro Bowler, and yes no 1st team all pro, but, he made 7 all pro teams. 4th in receptions, 4th in yards, 6th in receiving TD’s. 19,679 all purpose yards, 5th all time.
Also, the Hall of Fame prioritized Curtis Martin ahead of Jerome Bettis. C-Mart was on the final final ballot before they select the nominees. So, based on that information, I think Curtis Martin could make the Hall oF Fame next year. I think Curtis might have made it this year if Marshall Faulk wasn’t eligible this year. Love him or hate him, Curtis Martin was consistent. Started his career with 10 straight 1,000 rushing yard seasons. Only Barry Sanders and Curtis Martin hold this record. Only Emmitt Smith(28th Top 100), Walter Payton(5th) ,and Barry Sanders(17th) have more.
Are Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, Fred Taylor,Corey Dillon,and Tiki Barber Hall of Famers?
The Edge is a definitely in my book.
Tim Brown made one (2nd team) all pro team, Chris Carter made three (including one 2nd team), Carter was also selected over Brown for the 1990s Decade Team. The lack of all pro selections and playoff successes are what are delaying their HOF elections, although both will get in it may take a few more years. Reed’s additional playoff numbers and four AFC championships appears to be getting more attention and interest by the voters (Reed has two 2nd team all pro teams). I think the problem in voters minds is that not much clearly seperates these three WRs.
“Are Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, Fred Taylor,Corey Dillon,and Tiki Barber Hall of Famers?”
None, although James may have the strongest case and he could get in but it will take several elections. There are just too many 10,000+ yard RBs from the 2000s with weak playoff successes and not much to separate them.
Tim Brown was actually named a 1st team all pro two years, in 1988 by Pro Football Writers, Pro Football Weekly, and Sporting News, and again in 1997 by Sporting News.
The problem here with Andre Reed, Cris Carter, and Tim Brown is that they’re stuck in a logjam and it has apparently been hard for the voters to vault one in thus far. Happens sometimes. I’d expect that to change next year when there aren’t any real first-ballot types eligible, and electing Shannon Sharpe this year may help clear some space as well. In fact I’ll be very surprised if none of these three get in next year (and perhaps even two might).
And also, not too far from now, Issac Bruce and Torry Holt will be on the ballot, and both are worthy(But, I do think Issac will have to wait, due to his lack of pro bowls and APs).
One of the 3 receivers will make it next year. With Reed seemingly having the most support, it’ll probably be him. If I had to pick between the 3, I’d definitely take Carter despite his lack of postseason success.
I think his 8 pro bowls are much more impressive than Reed’s or Brown’s given that he had to compete against the likes of Rice, Irvin, Sharpe, Herman Moore, Andre Rison and then later Owens, Moss, Bruce, Holt, etc. The NFC also had guys like Art Monk, Gary Clark and Henry Ellard whose primes ended just before Carter’s began.
Brown and Reed didn’t have nearly the competition in the AFC with only guys like Anthony Miller, Jimmy Smith and Marvin Harrison having any sort of sustained success during their primes. Reed actually had less than 1,000 receiving yards in 4 of his 7 Pro Bowl seasons! As for Brown, only 7 of his pro bowls came as a WR. As others have said, I think the reason for the logjam is that all 3 deserve to make it, but none of the 3 have a rock solid case to put them above the one another.
“Tim Brown was actually named a 1st team all pro two years, in 1988 by Pro Football Writers, Pro Football Weekly, and Sporting News, and again in 1997 by Sporting News.”
Most of the posters here (as well as the HOF voters I suspect) only recognize AP (voted on by PFWA) all pro first or second team selections, and on that count Brown only has the one 1st team all pro selection
Now I am not saying that Brown (or Reed or Carter) should not be in the HOF, I think all three are deserving, but this assertion by some that their omission is some sort of major disgrace is misguided.
Paul wrote: “Most of the posters here (as well as the HOF voters I suspect) only recognize AP (voted on by PFWA) all pro first or second team selections.”
I’d actually like to know the basis for that idea. Note well that Pro Football Writers and Sporting News select an all-pro team as well as AP to this day, and in past there were other organizations that did so as well, most notably NEA and UPI. In fact, there has been a fair bit of very contentious discussion on this idea at the pfraforum’s website, with several knowledgeable football people there (one of them John Turney, who appears to have an inside connection with the HoF voting committee of some sort) hotly disagreeing with the idea that AP is the only team that counts. There has been sentiment for the idea, for example, that the old NEA teams were often more savvy than AP for the years the two ran concurrently.
Myself, I’m unsure how best to weigh the prestige of various teams chosen in one year, which is why I changed my formula of
AP 1st team all pro teams/pro bowl squads/all-decade teams
(let’s say 5/8/90s)
to
all 1st team all pro teams(number of these via AP)/pro bowl squads/all-decade teams
(let’s say 7(5AP)/8/90s)
which takes into account both ways of thinking. Personally, I’m thinking taking into account all the all-pro teams of a given year as being worth considering is better unless and until a good weighting system for these teams can be devised.
“I’d actually like to know the basis for that idea.”
Just that many of the career or stats summaries of players often only highlight AP all pro teams or certainly give it more “weight”. Perhaps in the past when there were competing equal selections of all pros by different sources it makes sense to consider others, but over the last few decades has the AP team not become the standard? What does the HOF refer to when highlighting all pro selections of nominees and elected players??
Paul, thanks for the feedback on my question. Some ideas:
Re: “Just that many of the career or stats summaries of players often only highlight AP all pro teams or certainly give it more “weight”.” A likely source here is the pro-football-reference website, which in its thumbnail postseason honors descriptions counts only a limited number of teams in its “1st team all pro” tallies, specifically the UPI teams from 1931-1939 and AP teams from 1940-present. These totals seem to be cited at other sites such as wikipedia, perhaps for convenience sake, perhaps because this website is well-respected, perhaps for other reasons. Pro-football-reference, good as it is in many ways, has apparently come under criticism for being so arbitrarily restrictive. In response, it has modified how these numbers are counted on an earlier occasion from the time when they lumped 1st and 2nd teams together as equal. They also now give detailed lists that show 1st team and 2nd team league and conference numbers for all available organizations lower down on the player’s record. Note also that pro-football-reference has some errors in its listings — for example, it credits Grady Alderman with having been named a 1st team all pro by AP in 1969 when in fact he was a 2nd team all pro. There’s a lot I like about pro-football-reference, but it’s not infallible either.
Re: “Perhaps in the past when there were competing equal selections of all pros by different sources it makes sense to consider others, but over the last few decades has the AP team not become the standard?” Good question. Only AP, Pro Football Writers, and Sporting News still choose such teams nowadays, but my understanding is that the PFW team historically carries a good reputation as well as AP. Less sure about Sporting News. But there’s still the general question of reputation here from day one to now, and it’s one I haven’t been able to determine satisfactorily. In fact, that might be an interesting football-based research paper for someone to consider.
Re: “What does the HOF refer to when highlighting all pro selections of nominees and elected players??” I didn’t know either, so I decided to take a look at a member’s career capsule. The one for Harry Carson says “In addition to his nine Pro Bowl appearances, Carson was named first- or second-team All-Pro six times…” A look over at pro-football-reference shows Carson assigned a “thumbnail honors” of 9 pro bowls and no all-pro selections at the top of his entry, while below it shows Carson being named a 1st team all pro by Pro Football Weekly in 1981 and Sporting News in 1984. He received 2nd team all pro selections from one organization or another in four other years: 1978, 1982, 1985, and 1986. Given all this, it looks like the HoF indeed gives credence to Carson’s 1st team all pro selections by Pro Football Weekly and Sporting News.
I don’t know if it’s just me, but, Ronde Barber has an underrated resume. He is a 5x Pro Bowler, 3x FIRST TEAM ALL PRO, not too bad. 2001 Int leader with 10. Has 40 Int’s and 26 sacks(record for corner). 208 consecutive games played. 13 non offensive TD’s( 4th most all time). 1 Super Bowl ring, but yes rings don’t get you in. Ask Charles Haley or Shannon Sharpe, considered one of the best Tight Ends all time and has 3 rings. He held basically every record for Tight Ends. Wasn’t a first ballot, was a 3rd ballot.
Devin Hester is definitely not a Hall of Fame yet. What makes him different than Eric Metcalf, much better offense than Devin. and Devin has the same amount of punt return TD’s as Eric. Offense/Defense> Special Teams yards.
personally, i think the senior nominees for the class of 2012 should be jerry kramer and either randy gradishar or johnny robinson and then the five modern-era guys will get in next year will be andre reed, bill parcells, curtis martin, willie roaf, and either charles haley or cortez kennedy.
Bach: Great work on the detailed analysis of all pro teams, I doubt any of the actual HOF voters have given that topic as much consideration as you have! Certainly worth some consideration when evaluating players.
Where is Ronde Barbers’ Hall of Fame status at?
My guess for 2012 is that Andre Reed, Curtis Martin, and Willie Roaf are the modern-era guys with the best chance. Given that there has been a definite push to try and get more defensive folks in, this likely bodes well for Cortez Kennedy, who has been in the top 10 finalists the last two years and has been eligible longest.
It’s tough to know who the fifth elected will be. It could be another WR (Cris Carter), or a LB (Kevin Greene might make a fast run in like Rickey Jackson did, or Charles Haley might possibly sneak in), or perhaps Dermontti Dawson will be elected (maybe ahead of Roaf as he’s been waiting longer, or less likely, with Roaf). Again, getting a defensive player in may be the priority.
It’s hard to know about first time eligible Bill Parcells — chances are excellent he gets elected sooner or later, but he might wait a couple years.
I see first time eligible Will Shields waiting a good few years but getting in eventually. Randall McDaniel wasn’t elected until his third eligible year, so it’s very likely Shields takes notably longer.
Who will be the 2012 Seniors? Beats me. That seems exceedingly hard to predict.
Re Ronde Barber. As far as I know, he hasn’t retired as of now. With a postseason honors profile of 3(3AP)/5/00s and a long career, he’s at the top edge of CBs for his time and it certainly appears he belongs in. He’ll be up against Champ Bailey at 5(3AP)/10/00s and Charles Woodson at 3(2AP)/7/00s, though, who have similar or slightly better profiles and equally long careers and could have more voter cachet than Barber — and there’s always a chance he’ll get forgotten about in relation to these two players. Zach Thomas could suffer similarly at LB. Hopefully that won’t be the case, but one never knows.
Am thinking Ty Law at 2(2AP)/5/00s stands an even tougher time here — he’s probably 4th in the depth chart for CBs. I doubt he makes it in.
the 2012 seniors should be randy grandshiar and johnny robinson
As time goes by I hope what the Mark Brothers accomplishments will land them in the HOF.
The Mark Brothers exceptional toughness should be considered along with their spectacular play adjusting to Marino’s under throws.
Experts in this most recent Draft generally aren’t even considering 5’9″ WR’s as 3 down players.
The career numbers of the Mark Brothers are not high on the career lists and lacking significant post season honors (All Pro teams and SuperBowl wins) I doubt either will ever get any serious consideration for the HOF, especially considering the number of more deserving WRs from the 1970s/80s yet to be elected also.
Maxie Baughan should be considered. 9x pro bowler and 2x first team all pro, 7 total. He was a rookie on the 1960 Eagles championship team and made the Pro Bowl that year.
Maxie Baughan is a great senior Nominee, but where do you begin with Senior LB’s that could(?) be HOF worthy. Here is my list
1. Randy Gradishar
2. Maxie Baughan
3. Chuck Howly
4. Robert Brazille
5. Tommy Nobis
6. Andy Russell
7. Bill Bergy
8. Mike Curtis
out of your list there i would have to pick grandishar, howley, and baughan
my class of 2012 would be either one of the running backs, jerome bettis or curtis martin, andre reed or cris carter, cortez kennedy, dermontti dawson, and maybe bill parcells, depending on how they vote him in or not, but if not him maybe charles haley or willie roaf. and my seniors better be either jerry kramer, randy gradshiar, jim marshall, maxie baughan, ray guy, lester hayes, any of those would be just great.
I would say Curtis Martin will get elected next out of the Running Backs. Not saying Jerome Bettis is bad, not one bit, I just think Curtis was overall a better player. He was more consistent and was a better receiver. Yes Jerome won the Super Bowl, but so did Shannon Sharpe 3 times, and held at the time of retirement basically every Tight End record, but wasn’t a first Ballot, nor a second ballot. So that right there tells you Super Bowl rings don’t always(not saying all time) get you in quicker.
Throw Tim Brown in the list for players who have a shot. He was very versatile. 5th most punt return yards and 4th most receiving yards. Jerry Kramer should have been in a long time ago. Ray Guy, maybe, but, Shane Lechler might break the wall for punters/special teams.
chris, I’m fine to varying degrees with your other Seniors, but could you please explain why Jim Marshall should be in the HoF?
the question should be bachslunch, why isnt jim marshall in the HOF?
chris, I’ll be glad to share with you why I don’t think Jim Marshall belongs in the HoF. It has to do with the fact that in his 20 year career, Marshall went to two measly pro bowls and was named a 1st team all pro exactly zero times. Yes, zero.
If you want to bring up Marshall’s consecutive game streak, I’ve got two thoughts for you:
–as I understand it, Marshall’s consecutive game streak was prolonged in his later years by bringing him into a game for a token appearance and then sitting him on the bench.
–those comparing Marshall to Cal Ripken or Lou Gehrig are being unfair to these two baseball HoF-ers. Both Ripken and Gehrig were HoF-ers with or without their consecutive game streaks. As it is, that’s the only HoF argument Marshall has, and as such he has no better claim to Pro Football HoF membership than Everett Scott has to Baseball HoF membership — and in fact, their HoF cases in their respective sports look a lot alike.
If one wants to champion a Viking who has a long consecutive game streak for HoF membership, I say choose Mick Tingelhoff. He had the 2nd longest consecutive game streak in NFL history when he retired and currently ranks 6th all time. More importantly to his HoF case, he went to 6 pro bowls and was a named a 1st team all pro by one or another organization seven times. Why he’s not in the HoF totally escapes me — and why anyone would stump for Marshall instead of Tingelhoff absolutely mystifies me.
I agree with Bachslunch. Streaks are great, but it doesn’t mean you’re a hall of famer all of a sudden. You need great accolades such as Super Bowl wins/Appearances , Pro Bowls, more importantly All Pro Teams. Streaks come after all those. I agree with you can Mick. I’ve said before in pasts posts.
I share in the surprise that Tingelhoff is not elected. Both him and Kramer are by far the 2 biggest OL snubs.
Del Shofner is a snub too. 5 first team all pro’s is pretty good as a WR. He could have had 6 straight, but he was the teams punter instead , didn’t see much time at WR(doesn’t make too much sense). Larry Grantham was pretty good for the Jets. What is his chances for making the list one day?
WRs who would be good seniors candidates:
Cliff Branch
Drew Pearson
Harold Carmichael
Harold Jackson (all 4 from the 70s)
Billy Howton (broke Don Hutson’s career records for receptions and yards. First player in history with 500 rec and 8,000 yds milestones)
Lavvie Dilweg (1920s Packer and 5-time All-Pro, 1920s decade team)
Del Shofner (5-time All-Pro in the late 50s/early 60s, 1960s decade team)
Good list of Senior WR candidates from boknows34 — agreed with all these folks. I’d definitely add Billy Wilson and Mac Speedie to the list as well, and probably also consider Lionel Taylor and Art Powell.
also plenty of worthly LBs and DBs for Senior nomination, we should find out last week in August as Seniors selection Committee meets in a few weeks after this years event.
how bout randy grandishar?
chris, I think you’ll find most folks here are supportive of Randy Gradishar for the HoF. Linebackers who played inside in 3-4 defenses or outside in any configuration are not well represented in Canton (especially from the 50s through the 70s). Gradishar fits the first of those descriptions. And his postseason honors are competitive at 5(2AP)/7/none. I certainly think he belongs in, myself.
The trick will be deciding in what order to induct the many deserving LBs not in, though — electing Chris Hanburger and Les Richter earlier this year was a good start, and note that other very deserving Senior-eligible LBs such as Maxie Baughan, Chuck Howley, Joe Fortunato, Larry Grantham, and Robert Brazile need to be factored in here, and none of them have ever gotten to finalist stage. I say get them all in. The fairest way to accomplish this is likely via seniority, which means Gradishar will need to wait a few more years. But Gradishar is clearly deserving.
Although there appears to have been a focus on defensive positions for the Seniors in recent years (which if it continues to hold will advantage the many deserving LBs and DBs), it may also be time to address the aforementioned backlog of Senior WRs. However they may be impacted by the other backup of WRs in the modern candidate list.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame classes of 2012 and beyond
Who are the likely inductees in the Hall of Fame classes of 2012 and beyond?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/03/the-pro-football-hall-of-fame-classes-of-2012-and-beyond/
ESPN poll on the Class of 2012
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/ballot/_/id/4533/bound-canton-2012
My vote: Carter, Dawson, Kennedy, Martin, Roaf
3 offense, 2 defense
3 linemen, 2 “skilled” positions
Nine balanced class of modern players; and all of whom have been considered in previous elections
Paul, thanks for posting the link above. For a HoF article written by what one assumes to be a knowledgeable sportswriter, it’s surprisingly misinformed. I’ve put up some observations there in the comments section.
At the voting site boknows34 posted, I selected Cortez Kennedy, Curtis Martin, William Roaf, Andre Reed, and Kevin Greene as the folks I thought would likely be elected next year from the regular candidates. But we’ll see what actually happens.
My Senior Nominee List for 2012
Offense
WR- Harold Jackson
WR- Harold Carmichael
WR- Cliff Branch
C- Mick Tingelhoff
G- Bob Kuechenberg
OT- Al Wistert
Defense
CB- Ken Riley
SS- Johnny Robinson
LB- Robert Brazile
LB-Lee Roy Jordan
LB- Maxie Baughan
P- Ray Guy
Coach Chuck Knox
well what do u think of the list who would u add, subtract, or tell me about someone i missed
Fun exercise, Robert. Back about a year ago over at the pfraforum, a bunch of us chose our “all Senior snub” team, trying as much as possible to include those we felt were worthy and represent as much as possible a full team. The complete thread is here:
http://www.pfraforum.org/index.php?showtopic=1264
My team currently would be close to the one I posted at the time. Updated modestly since then:
C Mick Tingelhoff
G Dick Stanfel
G Riley Matheson
T Dick Schafrath
T Jim Tyrer
TE Pete Retzlaff
QB Roman Gabriel (arguably one of the better players at position but not necessarily a HoF-er)
RB Verne Lewellen
RB Deacon Dan Towler (arguably one of the better players at position but not necessarily a HoF-er)
E Lavvie Dilweg
E Billy Howton
DE Claude Humphrey
DE Gene Brito
DT Duke Slater
DT Al Wistert
ILB Randy Gradishar
OLB Maxie Baughan
OLB Chuck Howley
CB Dave Grayson
CB Lemar Parrish
S Johnny Robinson
S Jimmy Patton
K Jerry Kramer (really an OG, but this lets me include him)
P Tommy Davis
KR Abe Woodson
Some bad logjams exist that didn’t permit inclusion of some very deserving players, mostly at DB, OLB, guard, and E-WR. At present, I don’t think there are any modern era Senior QBs or RBs who deserve inclusion. Reserve the right to change my mind at any time.
Here is my list using a 2/5 rule + Team of Decade players:
T – Al Wistert 4/1/40’s
RT – George Kunz 1/8/60’s-70’s
RG – Walt Sweeney 2/9/60’s-70’s
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s
RG – Dick Stanfel 5/5/50’s
C – Mick Tingelhoff 5/6/60’s-70’s
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s
LT – Winston Hill 0/8/60/70’s
WR – Otis Taylor 2/3/60’s-70’s
WR – Drew Pearson 3/3/70’s
LE – Mac Speedie 3/2/40’s-50’s
LE – Lavvie Dilweg 5/0/20’s-30’s
RDT – Roger Brown 2/6/60’s
NT – Curly Culp 1/6/70’s
LDE – L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s
LDE – Gene Brito 3/5/50’s
ROLB – Robert Brazile 2/7/70’s-80’s
RLB – Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s
RILB – Randy Gradishar 2/7/70’s-80’s
MLB – Bill Bergey 2/5/70?s
MLB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s
LLB – Joe Fortunato 3/5/50’s-60’s
LLB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
DB – Jack Butler 3/4/50’s
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
SS/FS – Dick Anderson 2/3/70’s
SS/FS – Jake Scott 2/5/70’s
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s
Based on this list (and simply going by the pro bowl/all pro/team of decade numbers) my vote for the 2 Senior players would be:
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
Re my observations immediately above:
“QB Roman Gabriel (arguably one of the better players at position but not necessarily a HoF-er)”
and
“At present, I don’t think there are any modern era Senior QBs or RBs who deserve inclusion.”
it may well be that Ken Anderson has now dropped to the Seniors pool. If so, I’d put him at QB in my Senior snub team (replacing Gabriel) and include him among such players who do deserve inclusion. He’s the only eligible QB not in I feel very strongly about.
Ken Anderson (and any other player whose last season was 1986) would now be in the Seniors Pool for the 2012 election. Although I believe Anderson is certainly worthy of consideration there are a number of Senior players who deserve consideration first, including numerous Team of the Decade members and 5/2+ players of which Anderson is neither.
Paul i like your list for the senior nominees but i would add Harold Carmichael and Harold Jackson at wide receiver
Bergey was not an all 70’s selection
My Final 2 senior Nominnes for the class of 2012
T- Al Wistert- Lets get him in while he is still living
S- Johnny Robinson
hey, you guys know when will they annouce the senior nominees for 2012, i know its later this month, but when will it be? anyway, my senior nominees should be jerry kramer and johnny robinson, i like kenny anderson but will they nominate a quarterback as one of their senior nominees, im not buying it even though it would be nice if they did that though.
I did not include Carmichael and Jackson on my list as I consider Cliff Branch and Drew Pearson as stronger candidates from the 1970s WR pool.
Last year the announcement of Senior candidates was on August 25th, so look for a similar time frame this year.
The canidates were good last year and obviously both made the HOF, but the seniors once again have a chance to right some wrongs as they did with Hanburger. To me there are 4 slam dunk should have been HOF’s years ago and they are:
1. Jerry Kramer G Packers
2. Randy Gradishar LB Broncos
3. L.C. Greenwood DE Steelers
4. Chuck Howley LB Cowboys
All four of these guys have been passed over for numerous seasons for reasons known and unknown. The fact of the matter is that there have been recent inductees who did not ave the impact on their teams and the league as much as these four omissions. This will not clear up the logjam of deserving seniors but any of these four will be a step in the right direction.
Ok Here is my final list of nominees by pos
RB- Chuck Foreman 5/4
WR- Drew Pearson 3/3
WR- Cliff Branch 4/4
WR- Harold Jackson 5/3
SE- Del Shofner 5-5
C- Mick Tingelhoff 6/5
G- Jerry Kramer 3/5
OT- AL Wistert 1/8
DE- LC Greenwood 6-4
LB- Randy Gradishar 7/5
LB- Chuck Howley 6/5
LB- Robert Brazile 7/5
S- Johnny Robinson 6/6
S- Cliff Harris 6/4
CB- Lemar Parrish 8/3
P-Ray Guy 7-6
DE- LC Greenwood 6-4
and yes i did put greenwood twice my bad so what do u think of my list
For a starting lineup you need 2 OT and 2 OG so I would add
RT – George Kunz 1/8/60’s-70’s
RG – Dick Stanfel 5/5/50’s
and replace Jackson with
WR – Otis Taylor 2/3/60’s-70’s or
LE – Mac Speedie 3/2/40’s-50’s
RB- Chuck Foreman 5/4
WR- Drew Pearson 3/3
WR- Cliff Branch 4/4
WR- Otis Taylor 2/3
LE- Mac Speedie 3-2
SE- Del Shofner 5-5
C- Mick Tingelhoff 6/5
G- Jerry Kramer 3/5
OT- AL Wistert 1/8
RT- George Kunz 1/8
RG- Dick Stanfel 5/5
DE- LC Greenwood 6-4
LB- Randy Gradishar 7/5
LB- Chuck Howley 6/5
LB- Robert Brazile 7/5
S- Johnny Robinson 6/6
S- Cliff Harris 6/4
S- Louis Wright 5/2
CB- Lemar Parrish 8/3
DB- Dave Grayson 6/4
P-Ray Guy 7-6
this is my revisied list thanks for paul’s help i added louis wright 5/2 and Dave Grayson 6/4 to the list what does everyone think of my list now or should i add anyone else
Chuck Foreman is on my all-time underrated team along with:
1. Stanley Morgan WR
2. Harold Carmichael WR
3. Ken Anderson QB
4. Roger Craig RB
5. Rick Caseras FB
6. Mike Curtis LB
7. Bill Bergey LB
8. Pete Retzlaff TE
9. Lemar Parrish DB
Reading from a post above, I would say the four ‘majors’ in selection of all-pro teams would be PFW, NEA, AP and UPI, though in doing research on players, it seems NEA quit in about 1993.
The seniors that scored the highest on my list were:
Tingelhoff(33), Patton(25), Howley(24), Brazile(23), Stanfel(23), Karras(22), Humphrey(22), Dillon(21), Kramer(21), Brito(20) and Cliff Harris(20).
My problem with Tingelhoff is being a Center and it seems that position is filled to the brim already with Dawson about to be elected, who may be the greatest C of all time and certainly redefined the position.
Do we need to put any more Vikings in the HOF for a team that was blown out in four SB’s? And don’t forget all the screamers and yellers for Jim Marshall that will still be around.
Karras and Humphrey bring all their baggage and Dillon was on bad teams in his short career. None of them really stand out as players that have to be put in the HOF.
Stanfel it seems should have already been elected when he was a senior nominee before.
He matches up very well with Bill Willis, and unlike Willis, played his whole career in the NFL. Stanfel was a force on Lions teams that went to three consecutive NFL title games(winning two) and was elected to the NFL all decade team of the 50’s.
I’m so-so on Brito but perfectly fine with Patton, Brazile, Howley, Kramer and Harris as senior additions to the HOF.
My two senior picks announced next week would be Howley and Kramer. Howley is much deserving and would be the first LB from the Dallas Cowboys inducted into the HOF, hard to believe!
Kramer is also a very deserving candidate that was a mainstay in possibly the most famous phrase(play) in NFL history, “the Packer sweep”.
BTW, Drew Pearson(along with Larry Allen and Charles Haley) just got named to the Cowboys ROH this week, so I wonder if that will help Pearson and Haley in their quest for the HOF with Allen obviously a shoe-in.
I have read that Stanfel’s failure to get elected as the ’93 senior nominee was probably because of Dr. Z’s distaste for how Stanfel’s friend and former USF roommate Bob St. Clair had lobbied the Senior Committee to get him nominated. While that may mean Stanfel was unfairly rejected, to say that he “matches up very well with Bill Willis” is a gross overstatement. Remember that Willis was one of the first four players to re-integrate pro football in 1946 — a year before Jackie Robinson took the field for the Dodgers — and that Willis was the first full-time black starter in the modern era. Moreover, he revolutionized his position. Technically a nose guard or defensive middle guard, his quickness and intelligence allowed him to play off the line of scrimmage and caused Paul Brown in his memoir to refer to Willis as “the forerunner of the modern middle linebacker.” The AAFC as a whole was weaker than the NFL, but the Browns and Willis were most certainly not inferior to their NFL counterparts. Had the Browns played in the NFL from ’46-’49, or had Willis not been excluded from playing in the NFL because of racism until ’49, his All Pro selections, championships won, and score in your system would all greatly exceed Stanfel’s. As it were, to say that Stanfel’s HOF case matches up with Bill Willis’s is to ignore the very great impact that the latter had on how the game is played and who is playing it.
I found the article where Dr. Z mentions why he did not vote for Stanfel here:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/dr_z/news/2003/08/01/insider/
For the record, my top choices would be Wistert, Howley, Tingelhoff, and Dick Schafrath. These guys are all still alive to enjoy the honor, and none of them has ever been a HOF finalist before. My problem with choices like Kramer and Johnny Robinson is that they have already been a finalist multiple times and been rejected. What is fair about giving Kramer an eleventh real chance at getting elected when guys like Wistert, Howley, Tingelhoff, Schafrath, and a good number of others haven’t even had a single one?
Kyle,
I’m not degrading Willis and his mark on the game as a pioneer, much less the quality of player he was.
However, both look similar in the fashion of Stanfel has a short career and Willis did not have the longest stay either, including his time in the AAFL.
Yet both were among the very best while they played on the field, and yes, Stanfel’s career was entirely in the NFL while Willis’ wasn’t. There’s nonthing getting around that, but it shouldn’t minimize Willis either as far as him being a pioneer of the game and one of it’s best players.
And on the field, where as Willis might have picked up more post-season honors with an entire career in the NFL, there’s no way from what I have studied that he blows Stanfel out of the water in caliber of play on the field.
Stanfel(5/5/13…23), in his seven year career, was either a pro bowler and/or AP 1st team all pro every year but once and he was a big part of the Lions teams that went to three consecutive NFL title games(winning two).
He then went to the Redskins and in his short stint there, became to this day one of their ’70 Greatest Redskins’ and was eventually honored as a memeber of the NFL all decade team of the 50’s.
I would easily support Stanfel’s nomination and hope he gets in very soon, though we can’t wait forever either.
I would support Wistert, but how much longer are we to wait. Honestly, I guess I had giving up on the subject of him going to the HOF by now.
Maybe the committee does the right thing and finally gets it done this year, something I would be happy with.
I think Chuck Howley is the most worthy senior remaining, much less no Cowboys LB has ever been elected to the HOF(not a reason for induction, but still hard to believe).
Many feel Jerry Kramer is the most glaring snub in the NFL HOF, as we’ve heard mainstream as well. This is a a worthy nominee whose career also tells a rare story that should be preserved in the HOF.
Kramer’s time-capsule moments of his block on Jethro Pugh in th “Ice Bowl”, his FG to seal the 1962 NFL Championship Game and of course the famed “Packer Sweep” are ‘once in a few’ storylines that should be preserved.
Kramer was also a worthy HOF player even without that above.
However, if he fails this time, then it’s time to move on and go for somebody else in the future.
It’s hard to believe a NFL HOF without Jerry Kramer, but others need a chance too.
Same thing with Bob Hayes a couple of years ago and thankfully he finally got elected.
From the ESPN HOF 2012 poll above, I chose as my five:
Don Coryell, Dermontti Dawson, Charles Haley, Andre Reed and Willie Roaf.
Those I passed on this time that I think get in eventually:
Aeneas Williams, Paul Tagliabue, Will Shields, Bill Parcells, Curtis Martin, Bill Cowher, Cris Carter and Tim Brown
The ones I didn’t vote for that I personaly, am iffy on, but not to say won’t make the HOF some day(some of these probably will):
Cortez Kennedy, Chris Doleman, Roger Craig, Terrell Davis, Ed DeBartalo Jr, Kevin Greene, Ray Guy, Lester Hayes, Art Modell, Rod Smith and George Young
I still can’t believe Coryell isn’t in the HOF. “Air Coryell” will live forever so how can the innovator not be preseved too.
1,000 years from now some 12 year old football fan will know of “Air Coryell” like the back of his hand.
Don Coryell was a great coach at SDS in college, then completely turned around BLEAK enviroments in St. Louis and then San Diego.
His teams did fall short in the playoffs, but atleast in SD, you can blame a lot of that on the ownership giving away Fred Dean and John Jefferson. The “Freezer Bowl” didn’t help Coryell either.
However, they brought in Wes Chandler to Coryell’s offense and not only did he match Jeffersons production, but put up arguably one of the greatest seasons ever for a WR during his stint.
Charles Haley is still the only player with five rings and gave the balance of power to the Cowboys over SF in the early 1990’s. Haley absolutely turned the Cowboys into a Super Bowl Champion.
And I’m not so sure Richard Dent or Chris Doleman have the same impact on the Cowboys as Haley did. I was never that much impressed with Doleman or Dent.
DeBartalo is actually an interesting candidate, considering his ownership was a leading factor in turning the 49er’s into a dynasty(I think people forget that sometimes), but his off-the-filed troubles will probably keep him short of the HOF.
Lester Hayes was one of the best CB’s I ever saw and had arguably the greatest season ever for a DB in 1980, but he actually scores pretty low by my system and of course the whole “stick-um” thing.
I’ll again ENRAGE all the Cortez Kennedy fans by saying once more, I just wasn’t all that impressed when I watched him and thought Michael Dean Perry was right there on the same level. It’s safe to say Perry won’t be getting in the HOF anytime soon.
Kenney certainly had a high peak for sure(especially 1992), but I always had the feeling when watching them…..he, Doleman and Dent were over-rated.
However, both Kennedy and Doleman do have worthy resumes and seem to be on the right track for induction, it’s just they probably wouldn’t be in my HOF, as I’ve watched the NFL since 1979 and have first hand opinions on most these nominees who I saw play.
Looking at Harry Carson, I’m starting to wonder if that was a bad selection by the HOF or atleast I can see why it took him so long to get elected.
On the surface Carson looks the part with nine pro bowls and five all pro seasons by the four ‘majors’, but I also noticed when scoring him, he has NO 1st team all nfl selections by any of the ‘majors’. So his score by my formula was only 9/5/none…(14).
He had chances at numerous 1st team all nfl selections from AP, PFW, NEA and UPI(‘majors’).
The problem was he not only got beat out by Jack Lambert and Mike Singletary(HOF’s), but also Randy Gradishar and Karl Mecklenburg(non HOF’s) for those 1st team honors. In fact, rarely did he even finish in the top two of most decorated post season honors inside LB’s.
Let’s break down his all pro seasons:
1978…he was only the fourth most decorated ILB behind Gradishar, Bergy and Lambert
1979…he actually got NO all-nfl honors by any voting association but received a few conference honors; he finished WAY behind other ILB’s like Lambert, Gradishar and even Dewey Selmon finished above him with an AP 2nd team all nfl vote
1981…again he finished well behind Lambert and Gradishar for most honored ILB
1982…this was probably his best showing as he finished the second most decorated ILB(behind Lambert) and received an AP all nfl 2nd team vote
1984….he finished behind Singletary and Jim Collins as most decorated ILB
1985…he finished again behind Singletary and this time Mecklenburg as most decorated ILB
1986…same story as he finished behind Singletary and Mecklenburg; both Singletary and Mecklenburg were named AP 1st team all nfl ILB for the second straight season
Again, what’s concerning in Carson’s case is it’s one thing to lose out among all time legends like Lambert and Singletary, but he also had chances vs the likes of Gradishar and Mecklenburg, who are not in the HOF, and still fell short to them as they got the AP, PFW, NEA and UPI 1st team all nfl honors and Carson didn’t.
Lastly, I now must add Karl Mecklenburg to serious HOF consideration after doing his profile with a score of (6/4/10..20). This is surprising too because I thought he was a good player but not HOF, now I’m not so sure. He certainly should get some consideration.
Kyle
believe it or not i do agree with you its time we got some new finalists for the senior nominees and the one that really piqued my interest was dick schafrath 7/4 a lot of people remember gene hickerson but a lot of people dont remember dick schafrath also i clicked on that dr z article listed and i counted about 16 of his guys have already been selected by the hall so that means most are in most are not ur point about new nominees that i will agree upon.
Kyle Do u have a complete list of senior nominees that i can look through and judge and by chance kyle are u on facebook
Board game what is ur math for figureing out that stuff because quite frankly im confused
Now then My 2 Senior Nominees for 2012
Dick Schafrath 7/4
Robert Brazile 7/5
Robert:
My scoring system is # of pro-bowls, # of 1st or 2nd team all nfl seasons as selected by the four majors(AP, NEA, UPI and Pro Football Writers) and total # of 1st team all nfl selections combined from the above four majors.
Take for example one of your nominees:
Dick Schafrath…6/4/6(16);
(6) pro bowls
(4) seasons he made 1st or 2nd team all nfl as selected by the four majors(1963, 1964, 1965 and 1969)
(6) total 1st team all nfl selections by one or all of the four majors(1963 AP 1st team all nfl, 1964 AP 1st team all nfl, 1964 UPI 1st team nfl, 1965 AP 1st team all nfl, 1965 UPI 1st team all nfl @ 1969 AP 1st team all nfl)
My minimum score is 21 so he falls a little short by my formula, though he was an excellent player who blocked for back to back HOF RB’s on very successful Browns teams of the 60’s.
I actually thought he would score higher than 16 but would still consider him for the HOF since these are still case by case nominations.
The formula has been pretty successful in line with the true HOF’s mostly score 21 or higher, the players out of the HOF mostly fall short of 21 and those HOF players that could be weak choices normally fall short of 21 too.
I don’t use it for WR’s and RB’s because those are such stat dominated positions and it seems NEA stopped voting about 1993.
Doleman and Kennedy were hurt some in my formula because of that and could’ve scored higher, though I still don’t really think thier strong HOF material, just my opinion.
I scored up some of the more recent retired players who should make the HOF from the 90’s an 2000’s, which then all of them scored in the high 20’s and even 30’s without the NEA votes.
Derrick Brooks really surprised me with his high score. I knew he was great but he might be looking at 1st ballot induction with that great resume of his, much better than I thought.
Also, in doing scoring that i haven’t made public on here, a lot of the older retired HOF’s from the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s who I’m sure we all feel were strong HOF choices easily scored well above 21, some even in the 30’s.
Bobby Bell, Willie Lanier, Bill George, Jack Ham, Jack Lambert and Ted Hendricks were just some of the examples.
The ‘total number of 1st team all nfl selections’ by the four majors has shown to really be the seperating gadge between the real strong HOF choices, the weaker HOF choices and those that are still on the outside looking in.
Well we should have a decision later this week and since it is virtually impossible to pick 2 names out of a potential list of 20+ (when given their recent work the committee could select any of them), I am going to improve my odds by listing my top 5 with the idea that if my #1 and #2 are wrong I still may have a chance with the other three!!
1. RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s
2. S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
3. C – Mick Tingelhoff 5/6/60’s-70’s
4. RILB – Randy Gradishar 2/7/70’s-80’s
5. LLB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
Again this is not necessarily whom I would select, but those I am guessing would be most likely to be selected by the Committee.
Paul:
Gradishar has as good of a case as Harry carson, for sure!
Karl Mecklenburg has went up in my eyes too.
Board Game
according to your formula what would be your scores for dermontti dawson willie roaf and will shields i would be interested in that also what would be derrick brooks score compared to michael strahan also larry allen vs jonathan ogden
Now Then on to my Elite 8
OFF
C- Mick Tingelhoff 5/6
WR- Cliff Branch 4/4
RG- Jerry Kramer 5/3
OT- AL Wistert 8/1
Def
S- Johnny Robinson 6/7
LB Robert Brazile 7/6
LB Randy Gradishar 7/6
LB Chuck Howley 5/6
Now Looking at that who should make my final four
I am thinking that the effort to add more Defensive players to the HOF will continue via the efforts of the Seniors Nomination Committee, along with OL. Along with the 3 modern WRs to be on the 2012 ballot it looks to me that any WRs (or RBs and QBs) among the Seniors nominations would seem to me to be much more unlikely.
Robert:
Dawson…7/6/11(24)
Roaf………11/9/9(29)
Shields….12/6/4(22)
Brooks….11/9/9(29)
Strahan…7/6/8(21)
Allen…….11/7/12(30)
Ogden…..11/9/11(31)
Ogden got the highest score, Strahan the lowest, but all seem to be locks for the HOF.
Atleast in comparing Ogden to Allen, I would take Allen still.
Allen made AP 1st team all nfl and the pro bowl the same year at three different positions(RG, LT @ LG), including six straight seasons from 1996-2001 he was both pro bowl and AP 1st team all nfl; Allen missed most of 2002 because of injury or it could’ve been seven straight seasons of both pro bowl and AP 1st team all nfl.
Allen is on both of the all decade teams of the 90’s and 2000’s, and was the mainstay of what is called one of the greatest O-lines in NFL history that heled Emmitt Smith become the all-time rushing leader. Allen would be the first Cowboy offensive lineman elected from that unit.
Also, don’t forget Allen as a rookie stepped in for the Injured Erik Williams and thrived at RT which helped the Cowboys still finish strong and make it to the NFC Championship game, despite at the time losing what many felt was the best offensive lineman in the NFL and certainly the Cowboys’ best one.
The only reason Allen didn’t go to the pro bowl that year as a rookie was probably he didn’t play in enough games; Williams got hurt in about the middle of the season(car wreck).
Allen might be the greatest O-lineman to ever play and certainly should be a first ballot lock for the HOF.
Ogden to me is also a lock for the HOF and maybe even first ballot, but I would take Allen over him.
The only year he wasn’t a LT was as a rookie when he played LG and didn’t make any honor teams or a pro bowl. The most years he made back to back AP 1st team all nfl was two, 2002 and 2003, compared to allen’s six years in a row.
Ogden also did not make both the 90’s and 2000’s all decade teams like Allen, Ogden just made one.
If I was to rank these players as far as worthy to the HOF and order they’ll probably be picked for induction, it would be like this:
(1) Larry Allen
(2) Derrick Brooks
(3) Jonathan Ogden
(4) Michael Strahan
(5) Dermontti Dawson(redefined the C position)
(6) Willie Roaf
(7) Will Shields
I’m in agreement with the sentiment above that Karl Mecklenburg at 4(3AP)/6/none has a better HoF case than one might think. Besides Harry Carson, who is already in the HoF, he and Sam Mills at 3(1AP)/5/none are the best two ILB (inside LB in a 3-4) from the era I can think of. Carson’s 2(0AP)/9/none is no slouch, of course. Hardy Nickerson at 2(2AP)/5/90s (but played more often as a true MLB) looks to be close to this group.
Guys like Chris Spielman at 2(1AP)/4/none and Vaughan Johnson at 2(0AP)/4/none and Levon Kirkland at 1(1AP)/2/90s are at the next level down.
boardgame: Although I can appreciate the reasoning behind creating such a list, in all fairness players should be ranked in relation to their year of eligibility. So as you may rank Brooks (2014) higher then Roaf (2011) and Shields (2012), it is very likely that Roaf and Shields (and perhaps even Dawson) will be elected before Brooks even comes onto the ballot.
I just read on another blog that it seems Ken Anderson and Jack Butler have momentum as possibly this years senior choices, not sure if this poster was using insider info or not. He also seems to think the two choices will be announced Wed.
I’m not thrilled with either choice and Anderson would seem Hall of Good/Very Good to me as someone that watched him in the 80’s.
His career seems to revolve around 1974-75, then a drop off, and back to prominence in 1981-82. For sure he was a HOF player in those four years, but the rest looks like above-average/good to me.
Though WOW, his supporters are like the Floyd Little, Dick Lebeau and Art Monk clan. It’s literally giving me a head-ach reading all the stats they have for Anderson(LOL).
Butler certainly had a strong prime of about five years(1955-59; some solid years before that too), 52 int’s in just 103 career games and a member of the All decade team of the 50’s.
However, Butler had a short career on a bad team. He ranked more like a 2nd tier senior nominee in my eyes, but not a terrible choice either.
I like Howley, Kramer, Stanfel, Brazile, Patton and Harris much more as nominees than Anderson or Butler.
Although I do not have a huge problem with Butler or Anderson I do believe that a number of other senior candidates are more deserving and have been waiting longer for consideration. I know that the Seniors Committee votes first to select a top 10 in advance of the meeting so their discussions are limited to those predetermined selected 10. And many of the names we have been discussing (not Butler and Anderson) have in the past been include on the list of 10. It would be a shame if those did not get their chance before considering others such as Butler or Anderson. But I guess we will soon see. I know every year the result seems both surprising and disappointing when considering that others are more deserving then those selected.
Another website seems to be reporting the selections are Stanfel and Butler.
I like the Stanfel pick but just am so-so on Butler, not a terrible choice either though.
The HOF website now confirms they are the two senior nominees.
Butler is a fan favorite of Steeler nation and they always show up big to the HOF ceremonies. Expect a lot of Steeler fans in Canton.
Sadly, even if they get the Stanfel induction right this time, this nomination could’ve been for another deserving nominee today if they would have got Stanfel in the first time.
The same website that predicted it would be Stanfel and Butler, the writer seems to be an inside source, also gave the finalists that the committee chose from.
They are Ken Anderson, Maxie Baughan, Cliff Branch, Roger Brown, Jack Butler, Curly Culp, Mike Curtis, Ray Guy, Cliff Harris, Lester Hayes, Chuck Howley, Claude Humphrey, Alex Karras, Jerry Kramer, Bob Keuchenberg, Eddie Meador, Tommy Nobis, Dave Robinson, Johnny Robinson and Dick Stanfel.
My top choices going in were Tingelhoff, Patton, Howley, Brazile, Stanfel, Karras, Humphrey, Dillon, Kramer, Brito and Harris.
Well look what happens when you are aware from the computer for a few hours…..
and of course neither were in my top 5, oh well like I posted earlier one is always surprised and disappointed with these nominations each year.
I have no major issues with Stanfel or Butler, but still feel that many others (including the many familiar names to all us from their finalists) are more qualified.
It is interesting to note what names are on or not on their finalist list as it would be to run an analysis on the comparative scores for all those players.
One observation I would make is that perhaps the total number of pro bowls and all pros does not carry as much weight with these voters but team of the decade does?
And I agree the continued disrespect towards AFL only players continues to be a major problem.
Guys – Great comments flowing recently here. We did post a story on the senior nominees here (https://www.zoneblitz.com/2011/08/24/hall-of-fame-names-2012-senior-nominees/) if you’d like to comment there. We also (finally) will have our official 2012 list going soon, too–might be soliciting some opinions from some of you for that as well.
Anyone who knows football knows that out of all the 10,000 yd rushers, noone did it under more adverse conditions then Correy Dillon. How else, except for a rare blend of speed and power, do you rush for that many yards at an exceptional ypc facing 8men in the box defenses facing Pitt and balt 4gms a year. Broke Brown and Paytons records. Enough said.
Correy Dillon will never make the HOF, not fair to compare his numbers to players who played 12 to14 games per year during their careers, and both Brown and Payton had better individual seasons and careers. Sorry but Dillon is just another face among the many more recent 10,000 yard rushers, most of whom will never be elected.
Never is a long long time.
yes it is
Yea unfortunately Dillon falls into a large group of post 2000 era RBs with 10,000 yards who will not make the HOF: Eddie George, Warrick Dunn, Ricky Watters, Tiki Barber. Just like most of the 800+ receptions WRs from that same era are also not making HOF: Derrick Mason, Keenan McCardell, Jimmy Smith, Muhsin Muhammad, Rod Smith, Keyshawn Johnson. The current era of offensive focus is creating just too many players with high season and career numbers. Once you get past the top 4 RBs and WRs from the team of the 2000s decade (RBs James, Tomlison, Alexander?, Lewis?; WRs: Harrison, Moss, Holt, Owens) hard to see any of those others getting elected. If we keep to the benchmark of four from any position from any decade, it makes it hard to justify another 4 or 5 RBs and WRs after the decade team members, 1 or 2 more maybe (WR Isaac Bruce?; WR Hines Ward;) but more beyond those is a reach.
Jason Witten is having another great season. He will probably be a Pro Bowler for the 8th time. I think he is a Hall of Famer. He needs 2-4 more seasons with at least 60 receptions, 600 yards, very plausible. Gonzalez and Antoino Gates are Hall of Famers already IMO. Out of Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers, and Eli Manning, will all three make the hall, will two, or one, or none? I say All three can, but Eli needs to cut down on Ints. Philip Rivers needs to win playoff games. Ben may have the best resume with 2 Super Bowl wins.
Devin Hester, any thoughts?
I think Ben has the best chance of the three at this point, Eli may need another SB or 2 as his overall career numbers are likely to be average at best. He may end up like many other one time SB QBs (Phil Simms) outside looking in. Unless you set multiple annual or career passing yards, QBs like Rivers need multiple SB wins to get in HOF.
I still believe Devin Hester will have a long hard road to get into the HOF regardless of how high he pushes the return records. Special team players, including Ks and Ps simply do not get much respect in the voting and until the voters consider more Ks and Ps they will never give serious discussion to a kick returner regardless of his numbers and impact on the game.
Witten (2/7) – and at this stage of his career still only 29 years old and 8 years in the league – has put up some very impressive numbers. If he can play at a high level for another 5 to 6 years and end up in top 2 or 3 all time in TE career numbers with 900+ receptions (he currently has 648), he will be in the HOF – of course a SB win would also help! His one challenge as I see it is that his career borders the 2000s (against Gates and Gonzalez) and the 2010s which is seeing many new young TEs put up numbers. In the 2010s as his career winds down will he secure enough future all pro and pro bowl selections to add to the 2/7 he currently has? Will he have a chance at the team of the decades for the 2010s or run out of years if he retires before end of this decade?
Devin Hester is the best returner of all time, yes that alone doesn’t get you in, but I think he has 3+ more returns left in him. They can use him as Kick returner more, can’t avoid him too much like they have on punt returns by punting it out of bounds. If Steve Tasker is a finalist for the Hall of Fame, I think Devin deserves it as well at least. His first two seasons in special teams won’t ever happen. He can get first team All Pro again this year if he keeps it up, so would be his 4th. That is a lot for a returner. Shane Lechler punting at an All Pro level again, could be first team again, for the 7th time. If any punters deserve it ,it is Ray Guy and Shane Lechler,two Oakland Raiders.
HOF voters will first have to select a few Ks and Ps before they would ever consider Steve Tasker or Devin Hester. Tasker may have made the list of 25 semi-finalists, but he has yet to make the list of 15 finalists who are actually discussed and voted on at the selection meeting. And many players make the list of 25 each year some never to appear again or get further in the selection process. Again even Ps and Ks have had a hard time getting to the list of 15. Until that happens I am not even sure voters will select Hester as a semi-finalist of 25.
The ongoing issue HOF voters are going to have with the 800+ reception WRs and TEs was again pointed out by Peter King in his column today…
“Hall of Fame Headache Dept.: Art Monk retired after the 1995 season with 940 catches, most in NFL history. On Sunday, Derrick Mason of Houston became the 11th player in 16 years to pass Monk. Mason had one catch in the 41-7 rout of Tennessee, giving him 941.
Larry Fitzgerald, 27, is 296 catches behind Monk. Andre Johnson, 29, is 242 behind him. We haven’t even begun with the children of the aerial generation, the receivers just starting their careers in a time of unprecedented passing.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: The 44 electors for the Pro Football Hall of Fame will have to define what a Hall of Fame receiver is over the next few years, because they’ll be facing an onslaught of receivers way beyond Tim Brown, Cris Carter and Andre Reed. Isaac Bruce (1,024 receptions) or Torry Holt (920)? Or both? Hines Ward (980) or Mason (941)? And the tight end position could get similarly silly, numbers-wise. Tony Gonzalez has 289 more catches than any tight end in history.
There has to be something to separate these guys, and each voter has to search his/her conscience to judge them on more than numbers. I am one of the voters. It’ll be interesting, and perhaps maddening, to see how it unfolds.”
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/10/24/Week7/index.html#ixzz1bjszwPAl
Charles Woodson is a hall of famer. Is he a first ballot? I say he can be because he is playing at a high level right now stat wise and stats are facts. He has, after this season, at least a season or two left in him and could play beyond. After he left Oakland, his Hall of Fame chances were much better than the average player , but still low. He has played his best ball with the Packers.
Champ Bailey first ballot Hall of famer?
Champ Bailey (6/10, team of 2000s) and Charles Woodson (6/7, team of 2000s) both have very good chances, but it will all depend on the other finalists in the year they are first eligible as such elections are really a numbers game in terms of the qualifications of other candidates. They would not be the first of similar qualified candidates not to be elected in their first year even with those numbers of awards.
I like Charles Woodson as a HOFamer as well. OF the cornerbacks right now. I would list right now as having the best HOF chance when they retire:
1. Darell Revis
2. Charles Woodson
3. Champ Bailey
At this point in their careers Woodson and Bailey are locks for the HOF even if they retired today, they should be 1 and 2 on such a list.
With Revis it is still more of a projection since at age 26 and only a 5 year career so far, it will be another 5 years or more before his HOF status can be determined. Revis would not be the first early career HOF projection to fall short once his career winds down.
Reality is that it is likely both Woodson and Bailey will be elected to the HOF before Revis’ career is even finished let alone when he is eligible (2023 or later?.)
Darrelle Revis, even if its early in his career and yes I am a big Jets and Revis fan, but he is playing like Deion and can actually tackle, which wasn’t Deion’s strong suit, which is an understatement. Darrelle is playing at an All Pro level again this year and if he makes it, he is a 3 time first team all pro in just 5 seasons as a corner. Deion is a better athlete than Revis overall, but Revis ,just as a corner, is up there with him without a doubt. Nnamdi Asomugha is not on Revis Island’s level, especially this season. Nnamdi is getting picked apart. Yes, sometimes you can make a play on Revis. Hey, as good as Tom Brady is, he throws interceptions!! But, ever since Revis’ rookie season, he hasn’t gotten ripped apart for a game. Bring up Ted Ginn jr and Randy Moss and THAT IS IT who have burned him for big touchdowns since his rookie season, which by the way, he led ALL corners in tackles in 2007, rookie season.
Nick Mangold is another future Hall of Fame Jet to watch out for IMO. Patrick Willis is just a freak, that is all. 2007 draft will go down as one of the best EVER PERIOD
Between Adrian Peterson, Patrick Willis, Joe Thomas, Darrelle Revis, Jon Beason, Calvin Johnson, David Harris, LaMarr Woodley, Leon Hall, Dwayne Bowe, Brandon Meriweather, Ryan Kalil its a very good draft. The first 4 players I named can be one of the best all time at there position when it is all said and done. They have had 19 Pro Bowlers so far. Maybe its premature to say it will go down as one of the best, But it’s looking like it could.
I would say at the very most 3 or 4 HOFers could come from the 2007 draft only time will tell. But for a historical perspective it would be hard to beat these HOF draft years: 1953(7), 1957(9), 1961(7, including 4 of the best of all time), 1964 (10), 1965 (5), 1967 (8), 1983 (7, 6 in 1st round) and my favorite 1989 (4 from the top 5 drafted).
And it will be a long time before your first 4 players would be considered the best of all time at their positions, they have 90 years of NFL history and players to surpass, once each of them gets to 9+ All Pro = 10+ ProBowls, top 5 career numbers and outstanding playoffs and SBs before we start to consider any of them for that lofty status.
Having followed the NFL for over 30 years, I have seen many early career successes not end up as HOF let alone best of all time – those are very high standards to meet.
Yeah, I agree with you. But the 2007 NFL draft was a pretty good draft nevertheless thus far. 4 are having pretty good success early in there careers. When it comes to recently retired guard Alan Faneca, what is his hall of fame chances?
Alan Faneca (9/9, team of the 1990s) will make the HOF but with the large number of OL coming up for election over the next several years it may take a while, plus the HOF is not always fair to OG.
Speaking of offensive lineman, does anyone think Max Montoya, Richmond Webb, Bruce Armstong or Nate Newton ever have a chance at Canton?
Of those Webb (5/7, team of 1990s) would seem to have the best chance, but the number of outstanding OL on the current ballot and coming on in the next few years will mean it will be years before he gets a shot. The other three simply do not have the creds.
Agreed Paul. Kevin Mawae is a Hall of famer, you agree?
Yes I would agree with Mawae, but Centers have a hard time getting into HOF so it is going to take some time
I agree. Offensive linemen have a very tough time getting in on first ballot. I think Jonthan Ogden and Larry Allen do have a shot for first ballot status to be honest, since they both are considered as top 100 players of all time and given that over 8,000 players have played professional football. Out of them both, I would say Larry Allen has the better shot, but Ogden has a shot as well.
Demarcus Ware is a hall of famer. He is playing at an All Pro level this year; at least worthy of 2nd team, I personally believe first team. Anyway, 5x pro bowler, 3 first team all pro, 2x 2nd team all pro. He has led the NFL in sacks twice, just one of a hand full to do so since 1982(sacks became an official stat). He has at least 4 seasons left of football after this season. He has 88 sacks total. I can see him having over 126.
Brian Urlacher. Many call him overrated, but one thing that is true, he is pretty darn good. 7x pro bowler, 4 first team All Pro, 1x 2nd team. 2001 Defensive Rookie of the Year and 2005 Defensive Player of the Year. Thoughts about his teammate Lance Briggs? Julius Peppers? I think Peppers will have a good chance of getting in when his career is over.
just a heads up as we should be seeing the list 25 semi-finalists of modern candidates for 2012 HOF election sometime within the new two weeks.
Awesome, I can’t wait!
My prediction for the semifinalist list is:
1) Curtis Martin
2) Jerome Bettis
3) Roger Craig
4) Terrell Davis
5) Andre Reed
6) Cris Carter
7) Tim Brown
8) Joe Jacoby
9) William Roaf
10) Will Shields
11) Dermontti Dawson
12) Charles Haley
13) Chris Doleman
14) Cortez Kennedy
15) Joe Klecko
16) Kevin Greene
17) Aeneas Williams
18) Donnie Shell
19) Steve Tasker
20) Bill Parcells
21) Don Coryell
22) George Young
23) Art Modell
24) Ed DeBartolo Jr.
25) Paul Tagliabue
What is Joe Klecko’s chances of making the Hall one day? He deserves it. C-Mart should make it this year. If it weren’t for Marshall Faulk being eligible last season as well, he would have been first ballot.
Drew Brees, on pace for another 5,000 passing yard season. He will get it most likely, because he is on pace for 5,340 passing yards after 9 games. Dan Marino had 5,084 passing yards in 1984, highest ever. Drew Brees is a first ballot hall of famer RIGHT NOW, especially if he gets 5,000 passing yards and that would put him north of 40k of passing yards and his 256 passing TD’s already good for 12th most all time.
Yes every time he returns one for a TD, I post, but there is NO sign off him slowing down.
Klecko is worthy for consideration for election into the HOF, unfortunately until he gets enough votes to be a finalist and have his case heard it is going to be a long haul for him. With the number of high quality new candidates to appear on the ballot over the next several years, I am all to afraid that he is going to end up in the Senior pool.
Brad – I assume you’re referring to Devin Hester’s return TD?
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2011/11/15/hester-aims-halls-returner/
Yes Tony. If any returner deserves it , it is Devin Hester. Brian Mitchell is on the ballot, but he has returned a lot for a lot of yards and still doesn’t have the TD’s like Devin, but no one else does either. Returners are either good at punt returning or kick return, some are good at both, but Devin is amazing at both. The reason why I like Devin so much as a football player is because of his first two seasons. 6 return TD’s in back to back years. Getting 6 return TD’s in two seasons is tough. No one will BEAT or MATCH 6 return TDs in a season and Devin did it twice. And the last two seasons have been good too. His receiving is mediocre, yes, but it isn’t terrible. Devin is capable of having over 22 return TDs for his career, needs 4 more. That is due able for him. When they make the 100 year NFL team, like they did for the 75 year team in 1994, If Devin Hester’s name isn’t under returner, than they shouldn’t even make the team, because he is THE BEST RETURNER OF ALL TIME and there really is no close 2nd.
The semi-finalists will be announced tomorrow.
https://twitter.com/#!/ProFootballHOF/status/138713892640669696