Former Detroit Lions cornerback and famed assistant coach Dick LeBeau and former Denver Broncos RB Floyd Little were named as the first finalists for the 2010 Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2010 by the senior committee earlier today (special thanks to commenter boardgame for bringing it to our attention).
Write ups on both LeBeau and Little follow the jump…but before we get into those details, while both Little and LeBeau were on the list of possible 2010 Senior Candidates assembled by Tony P. back in January, I’m not sure if either would be at the top of my list today. Little embodies to me the type of player who apparently you had to see play to want in–his statistics alone don’t do much for me, and simply “saving a franchise” doesn’t do much for me in terms of the Hall of Fame. LeBeau was a solid player who never won much in terms of post-season honors, and has probably been bumped up a level with his defensive coaching record. Overall, I’d say they are two ok selections, but probably not the best–and I’d be surprised if both made it in next winter.
Let us know what you think in the comments.
LeBeau was a standout defensive back for the Detroit Lions from 1959 to 1972, accumulating 62 interceptions over the course of his career, good enough for 7th all-time (3rd when he retired). He was a 3 time pro-bowler, and still holds the record for consecutive games played as a cornerback, with 171.
Possibly more notable for LeBeau are his coaching achievements–he started coaching with the Philadelphia Eagles in 1973, moved to the Green Bay Packers in 1976, before moving to Cincinnati in 1980, where he was named defensive coordinator. LeBeau helped lead the Bengals to two Super Bowls, and was credited with inventing the zone blitz while in Cincinnati.
In 1992 he moved on to Pittsburgh, spending three seasons as defensive back coach, before being promoted to the Defensive Coordinator spot there in 1995. He returned to Cincinnati as defensive coordinator and assistant head coach in 1997, and took over the head coaching job from Bruce Coslet during the 2000 season, before assuming the job full time in 2001. Plagued by…well, being the Bengals, he achieved only a 12-33 record in his three seasons.
After being fired following the 2002 season, he spent one year in Buffalo as assistant head coach, before returning to his current position of defensive coordinator in Pittsburgh, where he has helped the Steelers win two Super Bowls.
Dick LeBeau Player Profile
Dick LeBeau Coaching Profile
Floyd Little was the 6th selection of the first common NFL-AFL draft in 1967, going to the Denver Broncos. He became the first ever first round selection of the Denver Broncos to sign with the team, having lost all previous 1st round selections to their NFL counterparts.
Playing for the Broncos for nine seasons, he rushed for 6,323 yards and 43 touchdowns, adding 215 receptions and nine receiving touchdowns. He also returned two punts for touchdowns, and threw one touchdown pass during his career. He was a five-time pro bowler, and one time All-Pro, in 1969.
Little earned the nickname “The Franchise” by helping start a string of sellouts for the Broncos, saving the team from moving to a new location.
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Like I posted earlier, these were not great selections and politcs had as much to do with their nominations as anything.
Both are acceptable nominations, just though not really HOF’s.
Lebeau was a good DB who played forever and then went on to coach forever, gaining fame with his Zone-blitz scheme that he is either the pioneer or early trailblazer of. His only head coaching experience came with the Bengals where he was terrible.
Little was a durable, versatile and fine over-all RB that played on a bunch of poor broncos teams. He might have been the pound-for-pound toughest player in the NFL(for his time) considering his small stature but enormous workload on those sub-par Broncos teams.
Honestly, I would say Little is the Hall Of Very Good and Lebeau is more of a Lifetime Achievment Award type nominee. They only have a total of one 1st-team all-pro selection between them. I’m not sure I would vote for either one of them.
There were many better choices than these two that were available to the Senior Committee. I’m not thrilled with these choices today.
Also, Little will have to be included in a finalist field this year that will have atleast one other RB that is a lock for the HOF-Emmitt Smith- and maybe also a second RB in Roger Craig.
It would’ve been much better on the surface to go with nominees who wouldn’t have much competition in their way at the same positions, like my selections of S Johnny Robinson and LB Chuck Howley.
There normally isn’t a lot of same positional players making a HOF induction class. That probably hurt Cris Carter last year when Bob Hayes was selected. Humphrey too with Bruce Smith’s induction at the same postion though I wasn’t sold he was a great nominee anyway.
Both are well deserving for the HOF. I think the committee should have put Jerry Kramer instead of Floyd Little this year, because Emmitt Smith will get in, and the voters do not/will not vote in two of the same position. I think its unfair to Floyd Little to be matched up against Emmitt Smith. Dick LeBeau has a lot going for him. 63 Int’s (7th All time) 3 time PB and named to 4 All Pro Teams. 2 SB rings as a Defensive Coordinator.
Floyd Little was on our List only because he was a 5-time PB but I’ve said more than once that I would never support Floyd Little for the HOF. He was a fun little RB but with only one 1,000 yd season and only a 3.9 career avg per carry. Damn!!! I just said only one RB was in the HOF with less than a 4.1 career avg. Little is no Big John Riggins at 54 career TD’s vs. Riggo’s 116.
And I just said I would hate it if LeBeau was picked over Johnny Robinson. It was Johnny’s time!! The LeBeau pick has been a year long campaign by the Steelers organization and the media. I HATE THE PROCESS!!
These picks make me SICK!! 50th AFL represented by a guy who spent most of his career in the NFL. Way to stick it in the AFL’s eye!! I think I’m done with these Voting idiots!!
In theory, LeBeau’s 2 rings as a coordinator don’t count–it should be on his playing days only, since he is still an active coach–not that I believe that will happen (especially since the Steelers were the ones pushing him for inclusion). His 4 All-Pro teams were all 2nd team or “non-official” teams–by what most seem to consider official, he was a 3/0.
I do have a feeling that the AFL 50th anniversary, if it was taken into account at all, would have been considered for this year, to match the induction/HOF Game/Celebration Year–and Ralph Wilson was the pick for it.
Will be interesting to see what happens in January.
Also interesting–look at the list of guys listed as “Similar Players” for both guys on their Pro-Football-Reference profiles (links in the story).
Little matches up with 3 HOFers (and 1-2 with an outside shot). LeBeau matches up with zero HOFers (maybe 1-2 with an outside shot)
I always question great coordinators who were sorry Head coaches. Maybe next voters will elect fantastic Team Trainers and Waterboys?
The Floyd Little election is a statistical joke. Talk about lowering the bar. And he was know Gale Sayers with a 3.9 average carry. Who cares how hard he fought. I know Little was a tough SOB and fun too watch.
If the voters do the right thing Little will go the way of Humphrey last year. If not they just opened the argument for about a dozen or more very good RB’s. Chuck Foreman is pissed off today!!
Jerry Kramer deserves it more than any other player. He was one of the best guards ever to play the game. He also kicked. He was named to the All Time 50th NFL team. I read his book. The book is called “Instant Replay”. The book is about how it’s like playing pro football for the Green Bay Packers. It’s a great book neither the less.
Last comment on Floyd Little. Only twice did he avg. over the League avg. which was generally 4.0. Only one time did his team win more than 5 games which was his last year at 7-5-2. He may of had a huge impact at the box office but compared to other great RB’s it was “little”.
I just can’t understand why the HOF Voters fail to select Johnny Robinson who was a fantastic football player and all-arounf athlete. I just don’t see him in the category of the unfortunate many who have been left to languish on the so-called fence for so many year.
The most well known fence sitters to be nominated but not selected until somewhat recently are: Lynn Swann (14 times) , Carl Ellers (13) , Paul Hourning (12), Tom Mack (11), Willie Wood (10), John Henry Johnson (9), Art Monk (8), John Stallworth (8). Jack Youngblood (8) , Don Maynard (8), Jim Ringo (7) and Harry Carson (7).
Now for the hard luck Players nominated the most but still sitting on the fence waiting for their HOF call. Jerry Kramer (10), Bob Kuechenberg (8), Ray Guy (7), Charlie Conorley (7), Johnny Robinson (6) and LC Greenwood (6).
It’s hard to believe so many Seniors going into the HOF after never receiving a single nomination after they finished playing. I feel good about these players getting one day selected to the HOF. It’s all about getting select again by the Senior Committee. The Committee needs to realize the have unfinished business!! No one gets selected over 5 times unless they’re view as a great player. Look at all of the players selected after so long too. If a player keeps getting strong support I believe it will happen. We’ve got to start a major push for all of these forgotten men!!
In Johnny Robinson’s case he was nominated starting in 1980-83 and than in 1985-86 so he’s due to be remembered.
correction- I meant Little had “little”on his team’s record.
After searching different info, there seems to be a conclusion that this nomination of Lebeau will not include his credentials as a defensive coordinator, but only judged as a player in the NFL.
This because active coaches aren’t eligible until they retire and wait the mandatory five years. So atleast by theory, his defensive assistant resume should not be counted when deciding his case.
Wow, if that’s true then this was not a good nomination at all!!
I can see a case being made for him as a coach and player, but just as a player alone, that seems like a wasted pick. I couldn’t imagine Lebeau being in the same room of busts as contempararies like Emlen Tunnel, Herb Adderly, Dick Lane, Lem Barney, Jim Johnson, Mel Renfro, Willie Brown, Mel Blount and etc; Lebeau just simply was never that caliber of player as those…..despite the high int total.
Good points boardgame. Or in the same room with AFL Legend Johnny Robinson.
Here’s what well respected bachslunch predicted about future nominees and he knows his stuff about who’s worthy and not especially with the old timers. This also goes to show what Tony said too about the Senior Committee’s selection being all over the map and not making sense. I’m a believer now!!
2010 Nominees
Al Wistert (senior) OT
Lavie Dilweg (senior) E
2011
Deion Sanders DB
Marshall Faulk RB
Cris Carter WR
Ray Guy P (last year eligible)
Ken Anderson QB (last year eligible)
Mick Tingelhoff (senior) C
Duke Slater (senior) L
2012
Shannon Sharpe TE
Michael Strahan DE
Jonathan Ogden OT
Harold Jackson WR (last year eligible)
Kenny Easley DB (last year eligible)
Chuck Howley (senior) LB
Johnny Robinson (senior) DB
2013
Andre Reed WR
Tim Brown WR
John Randle DT
Junior Seau LB
Larry Allen G
Verne Lewellen (senior) B
Jim Patton (senior) DB
2014
Warren Sapp DT
William Roaf OT
Aeneas Williams DB
Curtis Martin RB
Dermontti Dawson C
Cliff Harris (senior) DB
Billy Howton (senior) WR
His 2012 prediction should of been this years. That would of been perfect IMO. Two sure fire winners from two of footballs best teams of the era.
I can see two rejections!! We spend all of this time reflecting on the positive possibilities and they select two bottom feeders. I have nothing against these men and what they did for the game. But the way the Voters have made so many really great players wait and wait and nominating them multiple times just to pull these one timers out of the hat. It’s just lousy timing IMO. This decision really cries out for the case of more nominees like 4 or 5. We all should send letters to get their attention about how we as fans feel about the process.
Here’s what I wrote about Floyd Little months back on two ocassions when asked to support him by Chad.
“I determined Little and Lamonica did’t have the stats. I will look at again but Floyd Little only had (1) 1,000yd season and poor career avg 3.9 and only went over 4.0 which is the NFL average two times. I remember the guy was real popular and fun to watch. Denver always went crazy for their players. I think he had additional notoriaty because he was the workhorse at his size at 5?10? tall. I’m sure lots of folks have tried for him before. NO for me.”
“Floyd Little Very marginal- Stats are low even for the time, Post Season is OK but primarily in AFL. How many RB’s are currently in HOF? I’d go for Calvin Hill or Greg Pruitt before Little. Will keep considering. Chad, If we can’t find two better choices at RB we’ll put him on list Lol!!”
Tony P…
I can think of numerous players off the top of my head that were better choices. Why the committee contiues to play Russian-Roulete with many of these senior nominees is confusing, especially with such obvious better selections on the board to nominate.
We all would’ve been happy with the selections of Howley and Robinson(who were my predicted nominees), instead I feel somewhat deflated by these selections. It makes no sense!!
The committee passes on Howley(6/5) and Robinson(7/6) from two great era teams to instead choose Lebeau(3/0) and Little(5/1), who each played on mainly subpar teams. Again, it makes no sense at all.
I’m wondering with Lebeau nominated now, does this open the door up for a player like Ken Riley who has more int’s than Lebeau and did make 1st team All-Pro honors in 1983(his last season); Lebeau never made any 1st team All-Pro team by any publication.
The only negative with Riley is he never was elected to a Pro-Bowl where as Lebeau made three.
Also, if you look at Lebeau’s All-Pro honors, it’s very unimpressive. For him to play as long as he did and is now being brought up for HOF consideration, you’d think his post-season All-Pro resume would be more impressive than this:
1964…AP all nfl 2nd team, UPI all nfl 2nd team
1965…Sporting News 1st team all-conf, AP all nfl 2nd team
1970…Pro Football Weekly 2nd team all nfl
1971… UPI 2nd team all-conf
Again, NOT once being recognized as a 1st team all-pro by any publication and very few all-pro honors of even the all-conf or 2nd team all nfl
I went to the HOF website and looked at the RB’s in the HOF and noticed all the great names in that category. Just browsing at the list, Floyd Little did seem to bring the bar down if you included his name to the others there.
The more and more I look at these two senior selections, the greater doubt I am starting to have of their worthiness, especially since Lebeau will only be judged on his plauying merits and not coaching too. What was the rush on Lebeau when he could’ve been brought up after his retirement and then his coaching merits would’ve been included.
Ken Riley is not a HOFer!! He was a nice steady opportunistic CB. Int’s are nice but don’t always reflect a HOF caliber player. What happened to the Post Season counting for something? Looking at the leaders of the int. list I see a number of players who aren’t of HOF caliber IMO including: Dick LeBeau, Dave Brown, Eugene Robinson , Pat Fischer, Bobby Bryant, and John Harris with all over 50 int’s.
If the Senior Committee really wanted to pick a player to represtent the AFL’s 50th Anniversary why did they pick a player who spent only 3 years of his career in the AFL? Everyone knows RB was not a particularily strong position in the AFL. The AFL was a throwing league. If they wanted a glamour position why not WR Otis Taylor who did something memorable for the AFL in the SB? He’s long over due!!
Thirty-five RB’s are ahead of Floyd Little on the career rushing yards list who are no longer playing and still waiting for their HOF call. Actually in fairness to Little, his 6,323 yards are the most of any player left not in the HOF who began their career in the 1960’s. He’s the best the AFL has to offer stat wise. But will the Voters buy that?? IMO NO!!
I don’t think the Modern Football era should view the RB position so differently from generation to generation? It’s a fact that RB Jim Brown who proceeded Little’s time slightly has a rushing total not so uncomparable to today’s RB’s with 12,312 yards and not far behind is OJ Simpson’s with 11,236 yards.
Jim Brown played the same number of years (9) as Little. The Senior Committee has just nominated a RB with 6,000 less yards and a very average 3.9 yds a carry. I know Brown was great but is a half a Jim Brown HOF worthy? Lol!! It wasn’t for 34 years but I guess it is now. I would of picked a true AFL RB in Abner Hayes like My Coniglio recommended.
If Floyd Little is elected I want to see some of my favorite RB great too watch from the 70’s (IMO better than Little) get in like: Greg Pruitt, Larry Brown, Lawrence McCutcheon, Chuck Foreman, Calvin Hill, Lydell Mitchell, Wilbert Montgomery, Chuck Muncie and FB – Mark Van Eeagn.
I don’t think Riley is a HOF either, but an election of Lebeau to the HOF opens up a pandoras box to players like Riley, much less those others you mentioned with a high total of int; none of which like Riley are HOF’s.
And if coaching credentials aren’t involved in Lebeau’s nomination, what other argument would be for him than career int. That’s not much of a candidate if you ask me, much less his low post-season profile.
Again, what was the rush on him when it would’ve been better to nominate him after his retirement. Then coaching profile could be honestly used in his presentation, instead of now when it’s not suppose to be used but probably will be. To me, that kind of taints the whole thing!
Those RB’s you mention really do stack up to Little, including Muncie, who I had no idea had 19 rush TD’s in a season…WOW!
I remember him in SD with ‘Air-Coryell’ and obvioulsy they were very fun to watch. I’m surprised they never made it to the SB. I still remember watching that playoff game vs Miami where SD got the big 24-0 lead to only watch Don Strock almost come back and win. I think Wes Chandler had a punt return for a TD early in the game that helped build the 24-0 lead. Chandler was one heck of a player.
In surfing around, it looks like the mainstream opinion is Lebeau has a good chance at election with Little not as good a chance(Peter King). The problem with the predictions on Lebeau is they keep mentioning his coaching prowess as a reason for induction though that isn’t suppose to be part of the nomination.
Right now, I don’t think I could vote for either because Little and Lebeau just don’t look like HOF’s. The only way Lebeau gets in is with the coaching stuff and that’s not suppose to be used with him still a current coach in pitt.
I think you guys might be a little hard on LeBeau. He did make plays, had great hands, and has the record for most consecutive games played by a corner. He was every bit as good a player as Roger Wehrli.
I agree with everything Tony P says about Floyd Little. He is NOT a HOFamer, But take a better look at Dick LeBeau. He should not be compared with Ken Riley but more along the lines of Roger Wehrlie.
I don’t think LeBeau is a horrible pick and I can accept LeBeau but only on his total NFL package of work. I strongly believe the timing of his nomination is incorrect!! Boardgame is 100% correct about their being a rush and a misjudging of his eligibility. He should be retired first.
Plus, I don’t like LeBeau’s nomination now because it clearly appears that the Senior Committee was pressured to pick him. As far as I know the guy was never nominated after he left the game. So it appears he received very little consideration by the people who watched (played against) him the most.
Now you have 25 year old Steeler Players, most of which usually don’t care or know anything about NFL history, lobbying the public what a great player Dick was and how he deserves to be in the HOF based on his playing days alone. I’m highly skeptible of his HOF worth versus a player like Jerry Kramer who was nominated 10 times after he became eligible. IMO these guys deserve a 1st crack on the Senior level. I know I’m sounding like a broken record!! Lol!! I’m done on this topic.
I was wondering if Lebeau actually invented the ‘Zone-blitz’ and someone said it was actually Bill Arnsparger that came up with the idea first with his dolphin teams. After doing research, that ends up being correct and I found where Lebeau even credits Arnsparger with giving him the idea for the coverage scheme.
I was under the impression that Lebeau was the father of the ‘Zone-blitz’ and its orgins, that seems now to be Arnsparger’s place in history.
I think Arnsparger was the def coordinator of those ‘killer bees’ defenses of the early 80’s dolphins. I remember them well, especially A.J. Duhe who was a freak of a player atleast for a few years. I remember he was always all over the field making plays and the dolphins defense had him playing multiple spots in the front seven. He’s probably long forgotten now though.
For the record, as a kid growing up in the decade of the 80’s, my favorite player in the early part of that decade was John Jefferson of the Chargers. Though the Chargers weren’t my favorite team, I was drawn to him and all the great offense too of the ‘Air Coryell’ bunch.
The funniest thing about it was Jefferson always wore those goggles and I remember wanting a pair but never could find any at the stores. So every time me and my friends would have back-yard football games(two-hand touch of course..LOL), I would wear my swimming goggles to try to look and play like my favorite player.
Eventually, JJ would be traded to the Packers and though teamed up now with James Lofton, Jefferson really struggled and tailed off. I always was surprised that he fell off in Green Bay. Of course, the Chargers luck out and land Wes Chandler to replace him.
BTW, being a fan of Otis Taylor and his future induction into the HOF, I found out he actually finished in the top 5 this year by the selection process finding the 2010 candidates.
That’s suppose to be good news for a player in the future when he finishes that high. We now know three of the final five(Taylor, Lebeau and Little), but still would like to know who the other two were?
After doing some more research on Lebeau, I found out that between 1960-72(Lebeau played from 1959-72), there was actually 17 different CB’s who made AP 1st team all-pro with a few players making the team more than once over that period like Herb Adderly and Jim Johnson. Though again, 17 different players is quiet a lot over that span, but yet Lebeau was not one of them.
I also have to wonder if an inclusion of Lebeau into the HOF not only lowers the bar of the players already inducted at CB, but now allows other players of Lebeau’s caliber to have a better shot at induction too. I’m not saying I think these players are actually HOF’s, but with a Lebeau induction, their case deserves merit more than I think it would’ve before.
A couple of paticular players come to mind like Richie Petitbon and Bobby Boyd(among possible others).
Petitbon is a similar case to Lebeau becasue of his brilliant stint with Joe Gibbs and the redskins as their Def coordinator for all those 1980’s skins SB teams(and the 1991 redskin SB champion team too). He had a fine playing career too from 1959-72 where he made 4 pro-bowls and 1 AP 1st team all-pro(Lebeau 3 pro-bowls/no AP 1st team all-pro), including making the pro-bowl and AP 1st team all-pro in 1963 when he was also on the NFL Champion Bears team.
A comparison of their resumes:
Lebeau…62/762/3(185 gms); 3/0
1964…AP all NFL 2nd team, UPI all-nfl 2nd team
1965…SN 1st team all-conf, AP 2nd team all nfl
1970 Pro Football Weekly 2nd team all nfl
1971…UPI 2nd team all-conf
Petitbon…48/801/3(179 gms); 4/1
1962…Ap 2nd team all nfl
1963…AP 1st team all nfl, NYDN 1st team all nfl, UPI 1st team all nfl
1966…SN 1st team all-conf
1967…AP 2nd team all nfl, NEA 2nd team all-nfl, NYDN 2nd team all-nfl, UPI 2nd team all-nfl
1971…UPI 2nd team all-conf
Another interesting case is CB Bobby Boyd who played from 1960-68 for the Baltimore Colts. It’s really hard to see where Lebeau has a stronger case than Boyd(or even as strong), especially when coaching prowess is taken out of the equation.
Boyd went to two Pro bowls and was AP 1st team all-pro three times where as Lebeau went to three Pro bowls and was never AP 1st team all pro. His 57 int’s came in only 121 career gms compared to Lebeau who got his 62 int’s in 185 career gms. Also, he was Top 10 in Int’s seven times in a nine year career compared to Lebeau who was only five times in the top 10 of int’s during his 14 year career.
Boyd is also on the all-decade team of the 60’s and Lebeau is not.
Another name to even think about is Cornell Green who went to five Pro bowls and was AP 1st team all-pro three times, makng the Pro bowl multiple times at both CB and S. He played for the Cowboys from 1962-74. All these are just to possibly name a few.
Again, I just wonder with an inclusion of Lebeau to the HOF, will that lower the bar enough to allow others who seem to be the equal or better of Lebeau now to have stronger cases too? That’s not really a good thing if so.
Tony P, when you said Floyd Little was 35th All time in rushing yards, you were comparing his stats to todays players. When Floyd retired, he was 7th All time in rushing yards.
1. Jim Brown 12,312
2. Jim Taylor 8,597
3. Joe Perry 8,378
4. O.J. Simpson 8,123
5. Leroy Kelly 7,274
6. John Henry Johnson 6,803
7. Floyd Little 6,323
It’s like saying Roger Staubach shouldn’t be in the HOF because thereis 51 players have more passing yards than him that are not in the HOF. That’s unfair IMO to compare players from different decades. Compare players to the players they played with. That’s why I think Floyd is a good choice.
I agree with boardgame. Bobby Boyd is a better pick than Dick Lebeau. Bobby Boyd has 7 seasons with 6+ Int’s. 5 seasons with 7+ Int’s. 3 seasons with 8+ Ints, and 2 seasons with 9 Ints’! Whereas Dick Lebeau has 4 seasons with 6+ Int’s, 2 seasons with 7+Int’s, and 1 season with 9 Int’s.
Brad,Brad, Brad,
I think most people realized what I was saying. My only point was to look at how so many players are in front of Little who I consider much better who won’t ever be in the HOF. If you read what I said, I pointed out the number ahead of him, than followed up because I know it wasn’t the best way to look at his accomplishments by saying ,
“Actually in fairness to Little, his 6,323 yards are the most of any player left not in the HOF who began their career in the 1960’s. He’s the best the AFL has to offer stat wise. ”
Having watched Floyd Little in his best seasons in the early 1970’s, IMO he was NOT a HOF RB and I believe his low avg carry bares that out so why manufacture him into one 34 years after his retirement? Floyd Little hasn’t just been overlooked on a team’s 2nd highest profile position for 28 years since being HOF eligible.
After my original upset at his nomination I now have no doubt he will be elected and have stated so. Hooray!! for Denver fans. I’m oh so freaking happy!!
Who cares that 10-time nominee Jerry Kramer who played on 5 World Champions or 6-time nominee Johnny Robinson arguably the face of the AFL who played on 3 Championship teams were summarily passed over on the AFL’s 50th Anniversary.
Who can argue with that logic??!!!
I still don’t think the 50th anniversary played a significant factor in determining who was going to be nominated–I think this was the year (Ralph Wilson) that was really considered, given that the HOF Game was an AFL throwback game.
Jerry Kramer has been nominated before, in 1997, and not made it. Only four players have been nominated twice, three making it on the second try–Marshall Goldberg (1979, 2008), Lou Creekmur (1980, made it in 1996), Henry Jordan (1989, made it in 1995), and Bob Hayes (2004, made it in 2009).
Not sure what that means for Kramer’s chances–having the second nomination available to them makes me think that they are trying to go back in some cases (Hayes, Goldberg) to give guys another shot–but they’re only 50% at that, and I see seven others that have been nominated once and not elected, many earlier than Kramer. He will likely get a second chance–but it may be a few more years. He was apparently #1 on NFL Network’s list of Top 10 players not in the HOF.
Brad…
Unless I’m wrong, I think when Ken Willard retired in 1974 he was the seventh leading rusher in NFL history, only then to be passed by Floyd Little the very next season in 1975.
So in reference atleast in 1974, you could make the same argument for Willard as now about Little; The only RB’s ahead of them in rush yards all being HOF’s when they retired.
Willard retired in 1974 with 6,105 rush yrds, while the next season Little gained 445 yrds in his last year to bring his career total to 6,323 rush yrds.
These two players actually seem very similar per their careers with the exception that Little has more all purpose yards as a return man. Though in looking at Little’s return stats, I’m clearly not blown away by them.
Comparing the two players, the stats are again similar:
Floyd Little…1967-75(117 games), 6,323 rush yds(3.9), 43 rush TD’s, 215 rec, 2,418 rec yrds, 9 rec TD’s….8,741 yfs; 5 pro-bowls, 1 AP 1st team all-pro
Ken Willard…1965-74(132 games), 6,105 rush yds(3.8), 45 rush TD’s, 277 rec, 2,184 rec yds, 17 rec TD’s….8,289 yfs; 4 pro-bowls, 0 AP 1st team all-pro
Again, very similar players with Willard playing his entire career in the NFL while Little spent some of his career in the pre-merger AFL(1967-69).
And while I think Willard was a nice player, he ceretainly isn’t someone i would think to be a HOF caliber player.
I think Floyd Little and Dick Lebeau were good players with Little probably better on a superior team. However, I still think both come up short to atleast my qualifications for the HOF.
Lebeau just seems a good corner who played a long time and Little has so few dominant seasons in what was a short nine year career anyway. There seems to be only about five years where he was atleast a pro-bowl player in his short career and even then, some of those best years of Little aren’t that dominant.
I’ll continue to stay open-minded on the matter, but right now, I’d have to vote NO on both for the HOF.
Let me make a correction on Willard, actually Don Perkins was ahead of him with 6,217 yds rushing(4.1) when Willard retired in 1974.
Perkins played for the cowboys from 1961-68(107 gms) and went to the pro-bowl six times and was AP 1st team all-pro once.
Though I’m a big fan of Jerry Kramer, I’m guessing the senior committee is scared that with a second senior nomination of Kramer being his final last shot and with so many times he’s been rejected before as a modern and a senior candidate, their probably getting cold feet to nominate him again.
I think he’s one of the biggest snubs out there and wish the senior committee would bring him back up for nomination again.
Article mentioing the LeBeau nomination:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_640735.html
Check out Moon’s comment…
It ends up when Perkins retired in 1968, only four other RB’s had rushed for more yards than him in NFL history: Jim Brown, Joe Perry, Jim Taylor and John Henry Johnson….all HOF’s!
So if we put Floyd Little in because he was the 7th leading rusher of all time when he retired and the other six in front of him were all HOF’s, do we now put Don Perkins in the HOF too? Perkins was the 5th leading rusher in NFL history when he retired and the other four ahead of him are all HOF’s.
My opinion is their both Hall of very good, not Hall of Fame.
Tony,
Great point about Kramer. I didn’t know that so that might make a big difference. It just seems like guys who are nominated a lot should get a crack when they become a Senior ex. Johnny Robinson. Why do you think it’s so hard to vote Kramer into the HOF? Bob Kuechenberg is starting to be the same way. You can’t have one of the greatest teams (Miami) ever to block up the middle without your LG. I don’t care what the post season says Bob was a HOFer. You know when I grew up watching I don’t remember much talk about how important the Left Tackle was. Maybe because most teams ran so much? Now it seems like a Guard is sort of an after thought.
You’re probably right about the AFL thing too. I honestly think Dick LeBeau’s going to have a tough time if the voters are honest and just look at his playing days.
Little should get in because everyone who comments his so wrapped up in his heart. Look at his website. It’s really nice but those Denver fans would have most of the players who played their in the HOF if they could. If they were that good they should of won more. I will give to the fans though!! Also the site talked glowingly about his return skills which look nice but nothing too outstanding. He was a tough little back who did it all and the sports hero of the community. I thought the NFL didn’t look at a player’s character too much?
Larry Csonka must of been sort of close to Little’s total with Larry Brown a little more behind when Little retired? You want to talk about heart, no one played with more than Brown and he gave up his body for the game in a short time. I know he has some HOF support and if Little gets in I’ll be backing Brown all of the way. That dude went diving and flipping over everone and he was mostly deaf too.
I’ve heard the same about Perkins as being very serviceable but know one is banging the door to get him in and it’s only Little rabid Denver fans that have been screaming for him. They also shout about having so few player representing Denver in the HOF. They’ll be looking good now if Atwater, T Davis, Gradishar, Rod Smith and Little get in along with Elway. I’m bigger on Smith than Davis but both are fighting a numbers game with so many greats at those positions.
Do you guys think Larry Csonka would carry the ball today as a FB? IMO, if he couldn’t move the pile he’d be half the great player he was as a runner in today’s game with so much speed and strength. He’d probably be a TD maker like Lendale White. Well before White lost the weight. :)
Good research boardgame!
sorry I forgot to include: http://www.littleinthehalloffame.com/homepage.html
A really well done site and they fluff him up real well.
I just read the Pittsburgh article. Don’t these sports guys know LeBeau is going in as a player only?
Between Little and LeBeau there will be such a good feeling at the ceremony everyone can stand around and sing Kum Ba Yah!!! :) It’ll be great. Lol!! You can feel the love for these men already.
I got my info on profootballhof.com. I really wasn’t that high on Floyd, but I think he should be in the HOF.
As a Jets fan, I think Winston Hill should be nominated one day. He had 13 seasons in a row where he played in every game. He was a member of the 1968 Jets(Super Bowl Team). He was an 8 Time Pro Bowler.
Here is his All Pro stats:
1964…..Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 2nd Team All-AFL
1968…..Sporting News: 2nd Team All-Conf.
NY Daily News: 2nd Team All-AFL
1969…..Associated Press: 2nd Team All-AFL
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 1st Team All-AFL
NY Daily News: 1st Team All-AFL
Sporting News: 1st Team All-AFL
UPI: 2nd Team All-AFL
1970…..Associated Press: 1st Team All-Conf.
Sporting News: 1st Team All-Conf.
UPI: 1st Team All-Conf.
Pro Football Writers: 2nd Team All-NFL
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 2nd Team All-NFL
1971…..UPI: 1st Team All-Conf.
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 2nd Team All-NFL
1972…..Associated Press: 1st Team All-Conf.
Sporting News: 1st Team All-Conf.
UPI: 1st Team All-Conf.
Pro Football Writers: 2nd Team All-NFL
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 2nd Team All-NFL
1973…..Pro Football Weekly: 1st Team All-Conf.
Sporting News: 1st Team All-Conf.
UPI: 1st Team All-Conf.
1974…..Pro Football Weekly: 1st Team All-Conf.
UPI: 1st Team All-Conf.
I also think Larry Grantham should be nominated one day as well. He was on our list we made for the HOF. I did a write-up on him. He barely missed games(missed 7 games). He too was a member of the 1968 Jets. He was a 5 Time Pro Bowler. He went All Pro in his first 5 seasons! Here is his All Pro stats:
1960…..AFL: 2nd Team All-AFL
Associated Press: 1st Team All-AFL
UPI: 2nd Team All-AFL
1961…..AFL: 2nd Team All-AFL
Associated Press: 1st Team All-AFL
NY Daily News: 1st Team All-AFL
Sporting News: 1st Team All-AFL
UPI: 1st Team All-AFL
1962…..AFL: 1st Team All-AFL
Associated Press: 1st Team All-AFL
UPI: 1st Team All-AFL
1963…..Associated Press: 1st Team All-AFL
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 1st Team All-AFL
NY Daily News: 1st Team All-AFL
UPI: 1st Team All-AFL
1964…..AFL: 1st Team All-AFL
Associated Press: 1st Team All-AFL
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 1st Team All-AFL
NY Daily News: 1st Team All-AFL
UPI: 1st Team All-AFL
1965…..Associated Press: 2nd Team All-AFL
NY Daily News: 2nd Team All-AFL
UPI: 2nd Team All-AFL
1966…..NY Daily News: 2nd Team All-AFL
1967…..Associated Press: 2nd Team All-AFL
NY Daily News: 2nd Team All-AFL
1968…..Associated Press: 2nd Team All-AFL
NY Daily News: 2nd Team All-AFL
1969…..NY Daily News: 2nd Team All-AFL
Sporting News: 2nd Team All-AFL
UPI: 2nd Team All-AFL
1971…..UPI: 2nd Team All-Conf.
Timmy Brown from the Eagles should, IMO, be considered one day. Tim can run and catch pretty good and KR/PR very well. He has 31 rushing TD’s, 26 receiving TD’s, 1 PR TD, and 5 KR TD’s. Not to mention, he returned a miss field goal 99 yards for a TD! He avg. 4.3 yards per carry and 26.0 yards per KR. He was a 3 Time Pro Bowler, should have Pro Bowled in 1966.
Charley Hennigan, is one of the most productive WR’s in the AFL. 3/5. Led the AFL in receiving yards 2 times and receptions 1 time. In 1961, he had 3 games with 200+ receiving yards, 10 games with 100+ receiving yards, 1,746 receiving yards in just 14 games! He probably would have beaten Jerry Rice’s 1,848 receiving yards record! 28 100+ yard games, 4 200+ yard games. Consider this man one day for the Hall!
Ottis Anderson….
When he retired in 1992 with 10,273 rush yrds, that was 8th in NFL history, trailing only RB’s Walter Payton, Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Jim Brown, Franco Harris, John Riggins and OJ Simpson in league history. All except Anderson are in the HOF!
Anderson ran for atleast 1,000 yards in five of his first six seasons; the only one of the six he didn’t run for atleast 1,000 was the strike shortened season of 1982.
He ended his career with the Giants where he was the perfect work-horse for Bill Parcells, becoming the Comeback player of the year in 1989 and another solid season on the SB Champion Giants team in 1990(1,800 rush yards and 25 TD’s in 1989-90). Anderson played a wonderful SB that day for the Giants.
Anderson was also a versatile back who not only could run, but had nice receiving skills too.
You wonder why Cardinal fans haven’t been beating the Ottis Anderson drum, considering he matches up so well with Floyd Little?
As someone who saw Ottis Anderson in his absolute prime with St.Louis, he was a beast on those early 80’s Cardinal teams.
Ottis absolutely hit with an explosion that this league has only seen a few other RB greats do before. I remember seeing him shred the Cowboy’s Flex Defense. The Giant’s used his him like a sledge hammer to beat the Bills in the 1990 SB.
I love that RB but when I look at his stats and the other RB’s around the league I think he just comes up short.
IMO they should put him in based on the talents he showed in his first couple years and than his heart after injuries affected his flare. I’d have know problem with his HOF election. I just don’t think it will happen. And yes, he’s a heck of a lot better than Floyd Little.
Brad…
Timmy Brown compares very well to Floyd Little with the exception that he has a lot less rush att’s.
In fact, I would grade Brown a better receiver and return specialist than Little and though his carries are quiet a bit less than him, he was an effective rusher with a career 4.3 avg.
What should help Brown too is these Denver nuts keep imploring that when Little retired in 1975, he was 8th all-time in All Purpose Yardage with every player but one ahead of him in the HOF. Well, that other player ahead of Little that’s not in the HOF is Timmy Brown, who ranked 4th on the same list as Little(8th).
Chuck Foreman….
1974- 15 Total TD’s
1975- 22 Total TD’s(WOW)
1976- 14 Total TD’s
Chuck Foreman…1974-76(51 TD’s); in just three seasons Foreman almost had as many TD’s as Floyd LIttle did his entire career(54 TD’s)!!!
Who Timmy Brown? I go look him up …..hmm, nice little career but I hate to disappoint so many folks. There will be very few players go into the HOF from the 50’s and 60’s. If I had to predict I’d say 5 or less and they’ll be done. Lots of work ahead to get the 70’s-90’s caught up.
John Hadl, Johnny Robinson, Jim Tyrer, John Brodie, Jack Kemp, Mick Tinglehof, Eddie Meador , Otis Taylor, Bill Bergey, Chuck Howley, Chris Hanburger, Alex Karras, Lee Roy Jordan or Roger Brown are all possible to chose from.
Chuck Foreman’s been made for years about not being in the HOF. And he was a FB really so you can expect his avg carry to be less because they run the ball up the middle more. Only Greats like Larry Csonka or Jim Brown could average over 5 yards from the FB position.
I refreshed my appreciation for Zonk after I read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Csonka I love my Dolphins and Zonk but any doubt about him being a HOFer went away after I read this. I wish I could of seen all of his games like you can on Dorect TV now!!!
Chuck was a great pass catcher too! Chuck Muncie’s game was a lot like Foreman’s but Muncie had even more power. IMO both had HOF talent.
Muncie had some really nice years for those bad Saints teams before moving to SD to join “air coryell’. He should get extra credit for that, much less then the nice career he had in SD.
He was really good in SD. I remember him a lot back then on those chargers teams and like Jefferson, he wore those goggles I could never find(LOL).
I remember Muncie being a beast with the California Bears and beating up on my favorite USC Trojans much to my dismay at the time. I hated Muncie for that for a long time. :) Funny how college carries over. Except for Adrian Peterson, I should hate him as I’m a huge Longhorn fan but I don’t. He’s too much fun to watch!!
Had you guys seen this website?
http://www.littleinthehalloffame.com/
I stumbled across it today on Pro-Football-Reference.com, sponsoring the Floyd Little page. I also noticed a change to their title tag structure (I think it’s a change)–they’ve gone from ‘NFL Football Statistics’ to ‘NFL & AFL Football Statistics.’
At least I don’t remember the AFL reference being there before…
Tony,
I posted Little’s website a couple posts up. :) It’s very well done and fluffs up his credentials very well.
I’m not seeing changes but it wouldn’t be the first time. Lol!! :)
The Floyd Little clan have picked up a new rallying cry and spreading it all over the net.
They say that from 1968-73, Little rushed for more yards than OJ Simpson. Well, they seem to forget that Simpson wasn’t in the NFL until 1969.
The truth be told is that when both were in the NFL starting in 1969(Little’s 3rd year and OJ’s rookie season), they played at the same time through Little’s retirement after 1975.
During that span of 1969-75, Little rushed for 5,358 yards while OJ rushed for 8,123 yards.
OJ’s 8,123 rush yards alone in that span are more than Little’s entire career(6,323 rush yards).
Floyd Little fans are really starting to make themselves look bad pulling these kind of tactics.
First unlike many great RB’s, it’s well known that O.J.’s career began slowly and there were some that thought he might be a bust. So for Little’s fan to make a comparison is a lot ingenuious.
The main thing I’m hearing from Little supporters is how he saved Denver from extiction which may or may not be true. Who outside Denver cares and how would that effect his HOF worthiness.
If Floyd Little is elected next year to the HOF, I wonder what that does for other just as worthy RB’s like: Lydell Mitchell, Chuck Foreman, Greg Pruitt, Timmy Brown, Don Perkins, Ottis Anderson, Chuck Muncie, Ken Willard, Lawrence McCutcheon, Larry Brown, John David Crow and William Andrews?
I believe that Larry Brown, William Andrews, Chuck Foreman and Ottis Anderson were actually better players than Little. I would take them to start a team over Little.
Also, I think that Lydell Mitchell, Greg Pruitt, Don Perkins, Chuck Muncie and Lawrence McCutcheon were just as good as Floyd Little.
Ken Willard, John David Crow and Timmy Brown were also similar players to Little.
As much as I respect the RB’s above, I just don’t think I really ever thought of them as HOF’s. But now if Little is elected, the HOF door has probably just opened wider for these players above. I wonder if that’s a good thing or a bad thing?
Here is the list of final senior candidates that the committee chose from before deciding on Dick Lebeau and Floyd Little:
LC Greenwood, Chuck Howley, Alex Karras, Bob Kuechenberg, Tommy Nobis, Dave Robinson, Otis Taylor, Dick Lebeau & Floyd Little.
I know I read that Otis Taylor finished in the final five, so they must have cut this original list of nine down to five before picking the two nominees.
The process starts out with a list of 68 senior nominees that then are cut down to 17 finalists by a mail vote of the nine senior committee members. Then five of the nine senior committee members meet in late August to discuss the 17 finalists and eventually cut that list down to five players, choosing the two senior nominees after that.
The big surprise of the nine candidates was Kuechenberg considering he was just a modern finalist last year(his last year as a modern nominee). I was also disappointed not to see Johnny Robinson on the final list of nine.
I’m guessing that these hold-over finalists(minus Lebeau and Little) will have the best chance at being selected as the two senior nominees next year, with of course two more nominees joining them to replace Lebeau and Little.
The two I would like to see join the other seven that weren’t selected this year are Johnny Robinson and Jerry Kramer.
My two favorite choices for next year would be the selections of Chuck Howley and Otis Taylor.
Lol!! Hahahaha, IMO they picked the only two players who weren’t good enough to be in the HOF. Not exactly. Who the hell is Dave Robinson a 1/3?? Numbers wise there isn’t a lot of justification to pick any more 60’s LB, and if they were to add one he sure as hell wouldn’t go over Hansburger 4/9 or Howley 5/6 or many others. These voters really may be touched in the head!!
Some won’t like this (even me to a degree) but based on my research these guys, Johnny “Rob”, Jim Tyrer and maybe Kramer are the most outstanding from the 60’s to get into the HOF. Lets get them in and be done with the 60’s. The 60’s are already very well represented.
Lets get on with the decades tht are so far behind. Voters are screwing up when they manfacture HOFers like LeBeau and Little. Like you said boardgame, just letting Little in would seemingly open doors for many other players not normally considered. It’s just dragging out things.
That shows that Kooch really has the support but the Committee couldn’t pull the trigger for fear of a wasted pick.
I too am disappointed by the continued Robinson snub. It’s like your best shot is if your a coach at some level or in the media after your career so people keep seeing you. Many of the Seniors being snubbed are out of the limelight. A good example is Atlanta’s coach Emmitt Thomas getting in over his mentor Johnny Rpbinson. The other way is by being known for being snubbed time after time.
boardgame, if you have time I’d like your opinion on my Contest team of suggested picks for the proposed remaining HOF spots
Tony…
Your selections are fine, but these are some I might change.
I would replace Lomas Brown with Chris Hinton who has a 7/1 profile and made the pro-bowl at three different positions(LG, LT & RT) while also making AP 1st team all-pro at RG. I’ve always wondered why Hinton didn’t get more HOF consideration?
John Brodie and Lamonica seem like better choices than Kilmer at QB; replace Brooks with William Andrews and Ottis Anderson; replace Morgan with Harold Jackson and have Ed Budde at 60’s guard; Raymond Chester deserves a look maybe over Riley Odoms.
I’m not so sure that Rickey Jackson was better than his team-mate Pat Swilling. When I use to watch those Saints teams under Mora, I always thought that Swilling was actually the more dominant player than Jackson though it seems he’s been forgotten some what where as Jackson is still in peoples minds…not sure why??
A player that will never get any HOF consideration now is Mark Gastineau, but in his prime, he was as good as I’ve ever seen(despite the antics). Some other players that probably fall short of HOF status too that I enjoyed watching were Too-Tall Jones, Dennis Smith, Gary Clark, Billy Simms, Lester Hayes, Nolan Cromwell, Mark Bavaro, Clay Matthews, Kenny Easily, Todd Christensen, Wesley Walker, Albert Lewis, Everson Walls, Karl Mecklengberg, Curt Warner, Mike Quick, Wes Chandler and of course, John Jefferson.
I wonder if that CB tandem of Hanford Dixon and Frank Minnifield will ever get any merit for HOF consideration? I thought as a combo they were as good as I’ve ever seen.
What I thought was strange is looking back at all the players who I enjoyed seeing play during mainly the 80’s, but noticing how few pro-bowls/all-pro teams they were chosing too. These players were some of the best back then when I remember, but to my surprise, very few if not any post-season accalades.
These players included are: Dexter Manley, Roy Green, Jacob Green, Michael Carter, Dave Butz, Jim Burt, Keith Millard, Henry Thomas, Eric Wright, Wendell Tyler, Webster Slaughter, Carl Banks, Rod Martin, Joe Washinton, Joe Cribbs, Gary Anderson(RB/KR), Levon Kirkland, Reggie Kinlaw, Seth Joyner, Joe Morris, Christian Okoye, Stephon Paige, David Fulcher, Leroy Irvin, Kevin Mack, Earnest Byner and Steve Bartkowski.
One day all these non-HOF type players I’ve listed in this post will be just forgotten. These same players that I watched and enjoyed growing up as a kid, it will be like they never even exsisted.
When Dick Stanfel was rejected as a Senior’s nominee back in the 1990’s, it was because the Senior Adviser, Bob St Clair, was a big reason(preping Stanfel up) that the committee chose Stanfel.
Well, it ends up that St Clair and Stanfel were not only college team-mates at the University of San Francisco, but also room-mates there too.
The committee didn’t actually realize this until after they had nominated Stanfel as the senior nominee, causing some like Dr.Z to re-think their position on Stanfel. It ends up some of the committee members like Z ended up not voting for him.
I think that is very unfair to hold this against Stanfel and would hope they bring him up again as a nominee one day. He looks like a HOF to me and I always wondered why he didn’t make it the year he was nomninated. Well, atleast now we know why, as unfair as it may seem.
Tony,
I really do believe that Chuck Howley, Otis Taylor, Jerry Kramer, Jim Patton, Johnny Robinson and Pete Retzlaff are HOF’s from the 60’s and need to be in. I don’t believe Tyrer will ever be inducted because of the Murder-Suicide.
I found some interesting stuff about Redskins RB Larry Brown that the Floyd Little clan forgot to tell us.
In 1973, he bacame the ONLY active player to have five consecutive 1,000(+) combined yardage (rushing/receiving) seasons in a row and with his rushing yardage total that season, one of only three players ever at the time to rush for 5,000 yrds in five seasons(1969-73); the other two being OJ Simpson and Jim Brown.
The Floyd Little fans say he lead in rushing from 1968-73, yet Larry Brown and OJ Simpson was still in college in 1968. When both Brown and Simpson came into the NFL in 1969, they both had more rushing yards than Floyd Little from 1969-73.
I’m surprised the Redskin faithful aren’t pushing Larry Brown for the HOF more with Little now nominated as a senior nominee.
The Redskins are too busy worrying about getting Hawgs in the HOF…
Anyone else seeing a Voice Five ad on the site/this page? Hoping it’s just my computer…if others are seeing it, I’ll have to figure out where that’s coming from…I sure as heck didn’t approve it.
boardgame,
I lost my last post; It went poff!! Hate it when that happens.
I agree with your points. Like I said it’s easy to argue for other player at several other positions. Hinton and H. Jackson were on my board for a long time. I do think S.Morgan was a little better. Also if they only pick one my 80’s LB it’s damn tough to leave Ricky Jackson out of the HOF more than any other of about a half dozen greats including believe it or not my main man Kevin Greene. Which makes me sick!!
Lamonica I think lacks the stats but I’d love to see Brodie in but doubt he will. Kilmer does seem to have the stats and certianly the name recognition. I love the story of RB turned to QB known for ever for throwing wobblers.
I considered most of the guys for my ream you mentioned very closley. Just look at all of the HOFers on my team. That’s a lot of players to add and like you said many will just fade away in our memories. I like your final picks. I mainly want them to leave these fringe HOF players alone and take care of business before these voters forget or don’t know about the players of the 80’s like the 50’s and 60’s.
I almost selected Dexter Manley or Charles Mann. Actually I see Mann in but they probably will cancel one another out. Much like Klecko and Gastineau but I think Klecko has a little more celebrity and skills standout better than Mann. Isn’t it amazing the voters haven’t ever selected a Nose Tackle?? Baumhower 1/5 might get in representing the Killer B’s like Klecko should for the Sack Exchange IMO. And Smerlas was the start of Buffalo’s Defensive strength along with Chuck Knox (who should be in the HOF) and the Great Isiah Robertson with spark plug Joe Cribbs on offense.
Which brings me to Robertson. That guy gets no recognition. I did look at Reference.com’s scoring on the tough picks. Some of the 70’s LB’s were tough to judge. Their scoring was only an aid but I did agree many times. Great LB’s off the team are Matt Blair, Robert Brazile LeeRoy Jordan, Tommy Nobis and Chris Hanburger.
I just couldn’t ignore Bill Bergy’s greatness. Remember that Cinncy team had some good teams and it was because of Bergy’s toughness, Coy Bacon’s sacks and Lemar Parrish and Ken Riley’s int play. Bergey was hot property when they traded him to Philly and he was still a strong presence along with Humphrey in the Eagle’s march to the Super Bowl.
I was a big fan that year for Rod Martin and Jim Plunkett. I should hate the Raiders but my Dolphins got the better of them too. I’ll never forget the Raider’s miracle along the Erie over the Browns. Why did Sipe throw the ball?? Raiders were the first Wildcard team to win the SB that year, not without some luck for sure. Talk about a Cinderella Team. :)
Billy W. said: “I think you guys might be a little hard on LeBeau. He did make plays, had great hands, and has the record for most consecutive games played by a corner. He was every bit as good a player as Roger Wehrli.”
I would like to see proof that LeBeau was as good a CB as Wehrli was. Note well that postseason profiles (AP 1st team all pro/pro bowl/all decade team) for these players aren’t even close:
LeBeau (0/3/none)
Wehrli (3/7/70s)
Wehrli also had a reputation of being one of the best pure cover cornerbacks in the history of the NFL. Dr. Z, whose opinions I normally respect, has said so in print and he is/was a devoted film study guy (Jimmy Johnson and Deion Sanders were the best, according to Dr. Z). It seems fashionable in some quarters to gripe about Wehrli’s HoF worth, but I don’t see a shred of evidence to back it up.
Like many here, I simply don’t get LeBeau as a HoF worthy DB unless the Hall gets a whole lot bigger. There are too many worthy DBs with much better postseason profiles out in the cold right now, including Johnny Robinson, Jimmy Patton, Dave Grayson, Bobby Dillon, Cliff Harris, Lemar Parrish, Abe Woodson, and Jack Butler. Get these guys in, then let’s talk about LeBeau. Besides, one is not supposed to consider coaching records until 5 years after retirement, and LeBeau is still active.
And I’m not taken with Floyd Little for the HoF either after doing some more research. If he goes in, so should Chuck Foreman, for starters.
Tony P, I think C-Mart will get inducted in 2012. Why 2014?
Tony P said: “I honestly think Dick LeBeau’s going to have a tough time if the voters are honest and just look at his playing days. ”
Unfortunately, from what I’ve seen it looks like several HoF voters aren’t going to play fair on this one. It already seems some of these folks are determined to take LeBeau’s coaching record into account anyway, even though no coach is supposed to be considered until they’ve been retired for five years. Really shabby, if you ask me.
And I’m thinking it’s no coincidence that some of the hardest lobbying pro-LeBeau has come from ex-Steelers like Rod Woodson and Jerome Bettis. Big surprise, but it’s just as biased as Denver or Dallas fans whining that their players get no respect or Vikings fans squawking about Jim Marshall or John Madden crowing about Ray Guy. It’s all shameless homer-ism and has precious little to do with whether the player in question has any business in the HoF.
Ottis Anderson, like Eddie George and Fred Taylor, will probably end up being among the better RBs not in the HoF. For whatever reason, the HoF voters have decided that’s where they’ll draw the line at that position.
The time has come for a separate panel to elect the seniors for the pro Football Hall of Fame. As newspapers continue to die, higher paid writers will be let go and those who remain will be well under the age of 40. The majority of the voters will not have seen a game pre 1985 +/-. How can they honestly consider anyone whose career ended before then. The Hall needs to consider changing the Hall of Fame weekend to the following:
1. Have a panel of ten HOF’ers made up of two from the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s and two others to put together a list of 4-5 deserving candidates each year. With all the names mentioned on this site that should be no problem.
2. The regular voters no longer have to consider 2 senior candidates with their players.
3. Have an HOF Dinner Friday night, the senior enshrinement on Saturday, the traditional enshrinement on Sunday, and the HOF game on Monday.
M Goss, I’m really starting to see things your way on this issue, given how poorly the HoF committee’s voting record has become the last couple years (Fred Dean in? Seriously? And “No” votes for Randy Gradishar and Claude Humphrey in what may be their last chances? They’ve pretty much squandered the good will they gained by astutely electing Roger Wehrli a couple years ago). Not to mention how weak or just plain bad the Senior Nominees have been the past few years (Marshall freakin’ Goldberg? Bob Hayes? Emmitt Thomas? Dick LeBeau? Floyd Little? Gag. Meanwhile several eminently worthwhile candidates ranging from Lavvie Dilweg to Al Wistert to Jimmy Patton to Mick Tingelhoff yearly go nowhere). Not to mention in addition the worthy players who have never reached regular candidate finalist stage (Harold Jackson, Harold Carmichael, Robert Brazile, ad nauseum). The regular HoF voters used to be more astute and consistent despite some unfortunate snubs — but they never used to elect the Fred Deans and Emmitt Thomasas of the football world.
I’m not sure a panel of HoF players and coaches would do much better, though, given that the shameless partisan lobbying of folks such as Jerome Bettis, Rod Woodson, and John Madden is the norm rather than the exception — not to mention how badly such selection committees have sometimes done for the Baseball Hall of Fame (crappy non-deserving players like George Kelly and Jesse Haines get rammed through the Veterans Committee into the HoF by the Frankie Frisches of the world, and now the opposite extreme where a voting poll hasn’t elected anyone in years) despite some astute choices such as George Davis.
Am thinking the best composition of such a committee would consist of truly knowledgeable football historians, like the sort of folks at the Professional Football Researchers Association, guys like Ken Crippen and Bob Gill and Sean Lahman and Rupert Patrick and (before his recent and untimely death) Bob Carroll. There are some seriously able folks there, which is apparently more than can be said for the current Seniors Committee.
I agree that drastic change needs to be made and suggestions have been made on this site previously. I too am not sure that a panel of all HOFers would be good. Seem like diversity would be the best.
First their needs to be areement that fundamental change is required. That won’t be easy because the folks being given the power won’t give it up easily. We need to find out the main powers to be within the HOF.
Can Andy Farkas,Lee Artoe,Dick Todd, Cecil Isbell(how isn’t this guy in!), Tommy Thompson,Pug Manders, and Willie Wilkin make the Senior Nominee?
Who??!! LOL!!
Floyd Little deserves it because he played for a perrenial loser and still produced as
one of the greatest All-around players the game will ever see. A legend who both Elway and
Jim Brown state should be in the HOF. His impact on one of only 20-some teams at the time should
not be discounted. He obviously did not have the Hogs-type line to block for him and was the Broncos
only real threat who defenses keyed on every play. Stats are nice but you have to look at the whole picture and
impact on the game. He took a franchise on his shoulders, saved it, and taught it how to win… just ask
Elway who wrote about him in his book. Little was not “little” even though you like to joke that way. Read ‘America’s Game’ by the way. Greatest book ever about the NFL.
Powderfingers, you’ve got a few problems with your pro-Floyd Little argument, For starters, please provide concrete proof that Little was “one of the greatest All-around players the game will ever see.” Greater than Marshall Faulk or Jim Brown? More all-around versatile than Doak Walker? Plus:
–John Elway (also a Bronco) and Jim Brown (also a Syracuse alum) are hardly unbiased voices here. It’s akin to Al Davis primping for Tom Flores and Jim Plunkett for the HoF, or John Madden shilling for Ray Guy for the HoF.
–why did Little deserve HoF election instead of Larry Brown, who was his contemporary and has a very similar career and very similar stats?
–would you please provide proof that Little “saved the Broncos franchise?” And even if that’s the case, why does it even matter to his HoF case?
–if Little was so great, why didn’t he elevate his “perennial loser” franchise into some success? And if you’re going to argue this way, you also need to give a significant push to players like Don Perkins or Billy Howton or Claude Humphrey.
Bachslunch,
I’m with you right until “–if Little was so great, why didn’t he elevate his “perennial loser” franchise into some success? ” . Lots of great running didn’t elevate their teams from misery. Most recently comes immediately to mind is Stephen Jackson of the St. Louis Rams who hasn’t been able to lead his team to more than a handful wins throughout his career including a 1-15 record last year.
I love that you brought up Larry Brown. He left it all on the field running with a reckless disregard for his body parts. Also, was mostly deaf. IMO the best all-time Redskin RB. Sorry Riggo! Plus I can only remember one decent OL player C- Len Hauss. Brown should be in the HOF. Another player from the 70’s getting the shaft.
I’m not sure I’d put Steven Jackson in the ‘great’ category yet–in part because he hasn’t really helped elevate his team.
How much more can a RB elevate his team than 15 games 324carries 1416yds 4tds 4.4avg 94.4a game 51 catches and only 2 fumbles? In 2006, his 1st PB season was nearly identical except for many more TD’s the Rams were 8-8. Shows how really bad the Offense was that he only got in position for 4 tds all year. If he has another PB season and they go 8-8 again will it be because he elevated this season and not last? Most likely it will be Sam Bradford that does the elevating. It’s all about the QB.
As great as OJ Simpson was he only elevated his teams to a best record of 9-5 and one Playoff game in 11 years.
I don’t understand why longevity, consistency, and professionalism is not considered when thinking about a HOF player. Ken Riley played 15 years with 1 team, a constant pro, at the time of his retirement he was 4th all time that ever played this game. Name any other sport that would not recognize that achievement. The argument that he never made a Pro Bowl is so weak! We all know that its a popularity contest. The other argument he played with Lemar Parrish is even weaker. One i believe that only played together for 6 or 7 years what about the other 8 or 9 years second that they threw at him to avoid Lemar. If that was the case he still had to have the skills and ability to be in position to make the interception. Also if that was true, why don’t the corners that played alongside Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders have a lot of interceptions. I can answer that, 1 they probably didn’t stay in the league long enough or they weren’t in a position to make the play.
So please stop overlooking the numbers. Numbers don’t lie! Ken Riley deserves to be in the HOF and anybody else that was the numbers to back them up.
Jerome, the only possible HoF argument Ken Riley has is his large number of lifetime INTs. As I’m sure has been said around here before, Riley never went to a pro bowl and was a 1st team all pro only once in his 15 year career — and those are pitifully bad numbers for a HoF cornerback wannabe, even worse than those of weak HoF CB selections Emmitt Thomas and Dick LeBeau.
If just “longevity” and “consistency” and “professionalism” in combination were desirable HoF traits, long-snapper Trey Junkin and guard Ray Brown would be great HoF choices. But they have no business in.
You can assert whatever you like, but simply put, the argument comparing Lemar Parrish to Riley is indeed a very strong one. Parrish was a 1st team all pro 3 times, went to 9 pro bowls, and was also a first-rate kick returner, so I recommend you “stop overlooking the numbers.” Those numbers indeed don’t lie. During the time Parrish and Riley were CB teammates (1970 to 1977 inclusive), Riley had about half again as many interceptions (36) as Parrish did (25). Parrish also went to 6 pro bowls and was named a 1st team all pro by NEA in 1976 during this time while Riley’s numbers here are zero and zero. This evidence strongly suggests that QBs of the time avoided Parrish and threw against Riley, and also that contemporary observers considered Parrish the better player. And Riley did not do much kick returning — he was clearly not in Parrish’s league on this aspect of the game. And that’s why Parrish would be a decidedly better HoF choice than Riley.
Your argument that Riley “had to have the skills and ability to be in position to make the interception” conveniently ignores that numbers suggest he appears to have gotten thrown on more often than Parrish. And there’s normally a reason that this occurs — the CB being thrown on isn’t as good in coverage. And even if he was a better cornerback than the ones who played alongside Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders, that doesn’t necessarily mean Riley should be in the Hall of Fame. One can be a good player for a long time and still not necessarily be at Hall of Fame level.
And please explain how we know the pro bowl back then was a “popularity contest.” Not to mention all-pro teams. And please convince us with good specifics that lifetime INTs are so meaningful that they automatically should vault a player with this argument — and with nothing else — into the HoF.
bachslunch:
Thanks for your comments. i know you view the Pro bowl as a great determining factor but to me it’s just a popularity contest, once you make it 1 time you will surely make it again. Just go back and do you research and look at the stats of several players.
I never said Parrish wasn’t deserving of consideration as well but to say longevity as well as numbers don’t matter is crazy.
Name another sport where you are in the top 5 in a particular stat and they are not considered one of the best.
Have you ever played football or any sport? If so you would know how hard it is to get an interception. Or play for 15 years professionally.
Numbers aren’t everything. Vinny Testaverde, Dave Krieg, etc. have a ton of stats, but aren’t Hall of Famers. It is strange to think Paul Krause, who has THE MOST Int’s wasn’t a first ballot nor a 10th. It took him a while. But my point is, stats aren’t everything. I just want to say, the Hall of Fame is just a decimal of the NFL players. So, not everyone will make it.
I agrees Stats are not everything. Nor should how many pro bowls you played in or Super bowls you have won either.
I think if they have the numbers the research should begin there. For example Ken Riley has the numbers. Now lets peel the onion. Look at the receivers and quarterbacks in his era, go back and look at his stats against those players. because I have done that and his case is strong.
It appears that many people just look at the surface ie (Pro bowls, super bowl, all pro) which is easy to do.
If anybody would like to see Ken Riley numbers against the HOF Receivers over his 15 year career I will be happy to email them to you and then I would like to hear your thoughts.
Jerome, several things to bring up:
–please explain why lifetime INTs are such an incredibly important and meaningful stat. You’re hanging very hard onto this as something that trumps any other consideration for HoF DB worth, and I’d be interested to know why.
–if longevity were so incredibly important in a HoF argument, Ray Brown and Trey Junkin would be HoF-ers and Gale Sayers and Dwight Stephenson would not be. And no one would even be considering Terrell Davis. But there are clearly significant limits to this line of thinking.
–the reason why I’m pushing for Lemar Parrish over Ken Riley is that not everyone can get in the HoF. And as I’ve outlined above, Parrish seems to have a better HoF case. And there are a whole lot of worthy Senior DBs to consider. It’s not clear to me why Riley must be pushed to the head of the line here.
–I do view 1st team all-pro selections and to a somewhat lesser extent pro bowls as important in HoF consideration. They tell us what contemporary observers thought of the relative worth of players at non-skill positions at the time, with very few exceptions. We really don’t have good, reliable, meaningful numbers for o-linemen and defensive players. Really, it’s not so much a question of “numbers,” it’s a question of “which numbers to value, and how to weigh them.”
–you asked me to do some more research, and here’s some info for you. There are a lot of players who only went to one pro bowl in their career, including Ray Nitschke, Ray Brown, Tedy Bruschi, Carl Banks, Mike Vrabel, Duane Bickett, Dave Brown, Dave Waymer, Karl Kassulke, Tom Neville, Len Rohde, Leon Searcy, Korey Stringer, Barret Robbins, Ray Collins, Thurman McGraw, Dave Pear, Dan Currie, Keith Bulluck, Tim Harris, Lee Roy Caffey, Bob Skoronski (also, Dan Koppen and Jon Stinchcomb have only been once but are still active) — the list is in fact good-sized. Despite your assertion, there are no guarantees of going more than once to a pro bowl.
–the argument that I somehow had to have played football in order to have a right to offer up opinions on HoF worth makes utterly no sense — no more sense that the idea that a music critic has no right to review a clarinet recital unless he plays the instrument.
Unfortunately election to the HOF is always about “numbers” especially in the case of the Senior Candidates. Only 2 can be nominated for consideration each year and the number of potential candidates (not including Riley and Parrish) is easy 20 to 30 players with better “numbers” then Riley and Parrish. The key number is the many players and only 2 annual nominations. As deserving as the may be it is hard to make a strong case for either of them when so many better players, including Team of the Decade members and players with multiple all pro and pro bowl memberships still wait. I could easily make the case for at least 20 players more deserving then Riley and Parrish even when not looking at any numbers. Hence the problems with the Senior candidates, many worthy for consideration, limited opportunities for nomination, and a large number deserving.
One more point to make re Ken Riley. Depending on how large a HoF we wanted to have, Riley might indeed belong in. But as Paul mentioned directly above, there are a lot of overlooked DB Senior candidates, including Lemar Parrish, Jack Butler, Abe Woodson, Cliff Harris, Bobby Dillon, Jimmy Patton, Dave Grayson, Johnny Robinson, Eddie Meador, Lester Hayes, Bobby Boyd, and Cornell Green. It’s hard to see why Riley should be pushed to the head of the line in front of all these players.
The number of DBs in the HOF (22), especially those who played at least 1/2 of their career in the 1970s (8), makes you wonder how many more should be elected, considering that the cases for Harris, Wright and Anderson (all members of the 1970s decade team) are perhaps stronger then for Parrish and Riley. We may be close to reaching the top number for DBs in the Hall from one decade (1970s). Plus as bachslunch there are still many other more deserving DBs from the 1960s and 1980s to also consider.
So yes it is a “numbers” game – as in how many DBs should be in the Hall and representing one decade. For example there are 6 Qbs from the 1970s in the Hall, with perhaps one or two more getting in some day (for a max total of 8). I doubt one could make a strong argument that another 5 DBs from the 1970s deserve election (giving 13 total), perhaps 1 or 2 at the most (10 or 11), given that voters are not very kind to Safeties to begin with.