More info on this later, but it appears via various announcements on Twitter and other sources that the following players have been named the class of 2018:
- LB Ray Lewis
- LB Brian Urlacher
- WR Randy Moss
- WR Terrell Owens
- S Brian Dawkins
- G Jerry Kramer – senior committee
- LB Robert Brazile – senior committee
- Bobby Beathard – contributor
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Great class. Three first ballot names and delighted for Kramer at last. The speeches should also be epic.
There will be at least seven new finalists next year and we might see another three first ballot picks with Reed, Bailey and Gonzalez. I’m confident at least one of the OL gets elected in 2019.
Agreed it is a very good class and addresses issues at S and WR plus with Urlacher clears deck for next year. But three very strong and liklely 1st year players getting in 2019 (Tony G, Reed, Bailey-all better than any returning candidates) battle for final two modern slots will be tight
The injustices of Kramer, Brazile and Beathard have been corrected.
agreed corey
Good class. Lots of star power. Will be a crazy set of speeches.
As a Redskins fan, I can’t help but be disappointed by Jacoby’s omission. He was very deserving — as all of the OL finalists were. The last time that the electors failed to select an OL in back to back years was 2006-07. This is the new backlog, and it will need to be addressed soon, but unfortunately, it will not be soon enough for Jacoby who will fall into a very deep senior pool.
Lewis and Dawkins are great picks. As is Moss. I’m on the fence with TO, but I understand that he was going to get in eventually. Urlacher is the one that puzzles me. Not necessarily that he was inducted (he is deserving), but I can’t believe he was a first ballot inductee when Zach Thomas (who has almost exactly the same credentials) has been waiting years to even make the semi-finalists list. I agree that Urlacher had an advantage over Thomas in the “eye-test” (and the fact he played middle LB in Chicago) but in every other way, it is puzzling how the two players have been treated so vastly differently.
Definitely new blood next year with 7 new finalists and only 8 holdovers. Would like to see Holt, Thomas, Mills, Mecklenburg, and Woodson get some consideration. All great players that have been overlooked too long.
With any justice, Kramer and not Lewis will be the last to speak.
Urlacher was 4/8, All Decade and DPOY. Sounds like a worthy first ballot Hall of Famer to me. Not to mention I up loving him as a child in the early 2000s.
Remember the logjam of Carter, Reed and Brown? Is there a new list logjam forming among Faneca, Mawae and Hutchinson?
Will have to see which OL ended up 6-10 as they battle over two open slots in 2019
Corey: You forgot Boselli! Yes, there is definitely a OL backlog. However, I’m not sure how this one will shake out. Some times it is easy: Fault (1st ballot), Martin (2nd ballot), and Bettis (couple years later). Sometimes it takes a while, but when it gets sorted out, it flows easily in consecutive years: Carter (2013), Reed (2014), Brown (2015), and Harrison (2016). At least to me, this one is much more difficult to predict — especially with a lack of stats to refer to.
Wow final 10 not elected were the four OL plus Law, really going to be battle for OL getting in next year
Jacoby Walls Lynch EJames Bruce did not advance to final 10
Then that would leave boselli Faneca Hutchinson Law Mawae who didnt make final 5
Yep
Great Class! Although I do wish we could have seen Jacoby squeeze in there some how. Looks lke it is off to the dreaded Seniors list for Jacoby and Walls. Good Luck to both of them.
Since Jerry Kramer got inducted who moves up to number 1 deserving senior
I had Kramer as the third most deserving senior. For me it’s Johnny Robinson.
Corey: Rick Gosselin agrees with you.
Here is what Clark Judge had to say: http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/hof-judgements-youth-served-owens-moss-lewis-elected/#comment-88141
19 could be the same with three 1st timers i think possibly law could get one of the last spots who could get another
Yea I see Law fighting those 4 OL for a spot, right now thinking voters will need to sort out OL and could elected two next year after none this year
Interesting election dynamic that went on.
Walls and Jacoby never had a chance, as both failed to survive the first cutdown. In fact, Jacoby was the only one of five o-linemen who failed to do so. Jacoby did better his first time out than his last two. And it looks like they drew a line in the sand with Jacoby, which pretty much ends it for guys like Lomas Brown, Mike Kenn, and Chris Hinton.
No question there’s a big o-line logjam. All of Mawae, Boselli, Faneca, and Hutchinson got into the final 10 but blocked each other from the final 5. We’ll see how they manage to solve that one.
Two smaller logjams, Moss/Owens and Lewis/Urlacher pushed all the way through as a pair and were elected. Lucky for them they were small enough to do so.
Dawkins was the only single player logjam breakout guy, from the DB group.
I’m glad they elected both TO and Moss . That really going to help the future logjam at WR. if they did just one WR this year, then the other would get in next year, which would push back Holt and Bruce. Then that would trickle down and push back Wayne, both Johnson’s, etc. And electing Lewis and Urlacher will hopefully help Zach Thomas, whom I’ve been pushing for to get in for years. It will “weaken” the talent at the LB position.
I keep seeing people say Bailey’s a lock for next year. Comparing him to Reed and Gonzalez, those two have arguments as the best ever at their respective positions and are at minimum on the Mt. Rushmore for FS and TE. Can the same be said for Bailey?
He’s deserving, but I think they can wait a year or two on him. Then again, I thought they could’ve done the same with Urlacher and Jason Taylor before him.
Hines Ward’s also in the mix at WR.
i can see your logic steve about bailey but to me hes 1st ballot but who knows what will happen in 2019
At 5(2)/10 all decade Champ has a pretty impressive PFHOF resume which will hard for voters to ignore
Sorry make that 5(2)/12 all decade
Ed Reed and Tony Gonzalez are first ballot locks.
Bailey should be first ballot, though I name him 50-50 for 2019. I’ll stick with him for now.
Give me one of Mawae/Faneca/Hutchinson as well.
Then I’ll take James as the final spot.
Senior – My heart and head is pointing to Robinson, though it also depends as to who is rotated.
Contributors – Pat Bowlen and Gil Brandt are my picks.
I just looked at Champ’s profiles again. He’s a lock next year.
Last year there was some wondering on here whether the Hall voters were starting to factor in things other than the Big Three honors, which stood to make things harder for me to rank current resumes. This year the HOF voters voted in two players at each of two different positions, and one of those players at one of those positions wasn’t even a first-year guy. That makes it impossible to say for sure that Ed Reed will keep John Lynch out next year, to take just one example of how this affects the ability to predict future classes.
It almost feels like the Hall voters this year mostly went with the most visible, well-known names, which could be a problem for resolving the OL logjam. I actually didn’t consider Urlacher a first-ballot guy and that was looking at the honor numbers, though I didn’t have Jason Taylor as a first-ballot guy either.
There should be a lot of room for new faces next year with seven open slots. And despite the fact that no TE has ever been first ballot, it wouldn’t surprise me if Tony Gonzalez makes it though along with Ed Reed and Champ Bailey.
I guess I should of wrote on this article. I put some thoughts about the new HOFers on the “Prediction” article. Feel free to criticize. lol
I agree with Steve about Bailey. Looking at his Int’s he only had a couple exceptional years. I suppose they didn’t throw his way.Made it to the Super Bowl his last year. I can see him waiting a year to let some other deserving guys who need to be in since none of them made it this year. I don’t see how they can leave John Lynch out when he was so important to Tampa Bay’s D. Hines Ward was a football player!!! Just a numbers game but you know these greats have egos about when they get picked. I wonder if TO will mention? Haha
Tony I think we are starting to see a new dynamic with the voters where they pass over other deserving players on the ballot for a stronger contender-the idea that a new player can wait to give others who have been on the ballot a shot at election appears to not be the case. Jason Taylor and now Urlacker made those jumps right to the election, while 3 players (Mawae, Boselli, and Law) have been the final ten now two years in a row and not been elected! That is why I think voters will not hesitate to elect Champ 5(2)/12, all decade next year along with Gonzalez and Reed (both considered among top 5 all time at their positions). But I do think in terms of the other 2 slots in 2019 Mawae, Boselli and Law have to be the top contenders as they clearly have repeated support of the voters to get as close as they have last 2 years. I know Hutchinson and Faneca were also in final 10 this year and certainly would be strong contenders as voters need to sort out the four OL now all set for election, and any 1-2 of those 4 OL could be elected next year.
So my 2019 prediction is going to be Reed, Gonzalez, Bailey, Mawae and Boselli. Looking to 2020 only Troy Polamalu is a strong 1st time selection so that year will clearly provide opportunity to finally elect others like any remaining OL finalists from this year but also Law, EJames and Bruce.
As to the other 2019 finalists I would agree with others with Robinson (senior) but with only 5 committee members making that selection it tends to be very unpredictable as shown with recent selections, and Bowlen/Brandt (contributors) with George Young as the wildcard there.
It is also possible when the PFHOF Board meets this summer they will address bylaws in regards to 2020+ elections for senior and contributors plus any special arrangements planned for elections in 2020 in honor of 100th anniversary of the NFL. I would like to see elections of 2 seniors and 1 contributor each year (and move coaches into contributors) and in favor of larger class of seniors, perhaps as many as 10 all decade team members for 2020.
John Turney of PFRA believes that a Contributor could be George Young, Pat Bowlen or Art McNally for 2019. He believes while the Senior Pool is a crapshoot he thinks it could be Drew Pearson, Johnny Robinson, Chuck Howley or Randy Gradishar.
Chuck Howley or Johnny Robinson Please! And Pat Bowlen probably but who has a better resume than Robert Kraft.
For 2019 I’m thinking it could be Bailey or Law with 2 OL, or Bailey and Law with one OL. Reed and Gonzalez are slam dunks.
Johnny Robinson was a finalist like 6 straight times in the 80’s and than a forgotten man. I wonder who’s that guy now. Honestly I haven’t been following the internal results closely. A lot of us keep thinking it’s Johnny’s turn but do you think maybe the Senior Judges have shut the door on that happening? They have to be aware of him. I wonder why they finally let Kramer in? Maybe they have something against winners? Floyd Little was a GREAT Bronco but to me a little bit of a reach. Could say that about Dick LeBeau too. That should of been Johnny’s year. Did you hear H?OFer Lance Alworth said he was the best he played against? He thinks he’s a HOFer.
Well, Kramer had been in the room before and was turned away more times.
The question is why? Why turn Robinson away? An AFL player in Canton isn’t uncommon. Being a Chief didn’t hurt Culp.
The reason Johnny Robinson likely went six times as finalist without getting elected: back when he was a finalist, there was reportedly a notable bias against AFL players by the HoF voters from NFL cities. Robinson was reportedly the most unfortunate casualty of this thinking. It also significantly delayed the elections of folks like Don Maynard and Buck Buchanan.
these are the 5 seniors i would like to see considered
LB Maxie Baughan
LB Randy Gradishar
LB Chuck Howley
LB Randy Gradishar
S- Johnny Robinson
I think bachslunch is correct. I was disappointed when his teammate Emmitt Thomas got in. It felt political because he had gotten some national media attention for being an Atlanta Coach in the middle of the season. Same feeling with with attention Dick LeBeau. Johnny hasn’t been seen running his Boy;s Home for years in Louisiana .Did Kenny Easley have a better career than .Lester Hayes? Hayes had a magnificent year leading them to a SB win as a wild card team. It’s my favorite Playoff run to win it all. I loved Plunkett too.
2018 – Robert Brazile, Jerry Kramer
2017 – KENNY EASLEY
2016 – KEN STABLER, DICK STANFEL
2015 – MICK TINGELHOFF
2014 – RAY GUY, CLAUDE HUMPHREY
2013 – CURLEY CULP, DAVE ROBINSON
2012 – JACK BUTLER, Dick Stanfel
2011 – CHRIS HANBURGER, LES RICHTER
2010 – DICK LeBEAU, FLOYD LITTLE
2009 – BOB HAYES, Claude Humphrey
2008 – Marshall Goldberg, EMMITT THOMAS
2007 – GENE HICKERSON, CHARLIE SANDERS
2006 – JOHN MADDEN, RAYFIELD WRIGHT
2005 – BENNY FRIEDMAN, FRITZ POLLARD
2004 – BOB BROWN, Bob Hayes
2003 – HANK STRAM
2002 – GEORGE ALLEN
2001 – NICK BUONICONTI
2000 – DAVE WILCO
i thought both easley and hayes were good
Gronk just said he will “look at his future”. I don’t think he retires, but if he does, would he make the HOF as a modern era candidate? Not sure. I would say yes, but TEs don’t get a lot of love going in right away. Many experts think or thought at a time John Mackey was or still is the best TE ever. He didn’t make it until his 15th ballot if not mistaken. Part of why it took him so long was because a ton of big names weren’t in yet. But, the fact not 1 modern era TE has made it first ballot tells you voters don’t view them like they view a QB, WR, RB. Tony G I think breaks that mold, because his resume is very overwhelming. He accomplished virtually everything at the TE position except for a SB appearance/win(I kind of wish he went to the Pats at end of career during the 2014 season. As a Jets fan it pains me to say that, but he deserved a ring).
One other thing I remember reading about the anti-AFL bias of those 80s HoF election committees comes courtesy of something I remember from a Dr. Z. article. If memory serves, he said that the AFL city voters finally got fed up with the situation; in retaliation, they refused to elect the obviously qualified Fran Tarkenton until they did the same for Joe Namath.
It will indeed be interesting to see what happens with Gronk. He has had a brutally tough career with injuries and likely has made enough money to last him the rest of his life if he is at all financially prudent. If he walks away now, he would join players like Calvin Johnson and Patrick Willis who also had had enough and hung it up early. I wouldn’t at all blame him if he did. My guess is that despite having a career that looks a lot like Todd Christensen’s at this point, if he retired now he would probably get in as a regular candidate after bit of a wait.
And John Mackey was an atypical case as far as his long HoF wait. The Baltimore representative at the time didn’t like him for some reason and reportedly tanked his candidacy repeatedly until his behavior was exposed by a fellow local reporter. He got in the next year, which was also his final regular ballot. The supposed reason given was that he had bad hands, but there could have been any number of things afoot unspoken such as Mackey’s union activism or his color.
Comparing Christensen to Gronk is not even close. I liked Chritensen a ton but the argument could be made that Newsome and Winslow were better. Even though there are many TE’s today that I would put in the HOF candidate class, Gronk is by far the best and even with the injuries has had more elite seasons than Christensen had.
Robert, any one of Robinson, Baughan, Gradishar or Howley would make me very pleased.
I do think Robinson would get elected if nominated. They turned away Stanfel twice, Humphrey once and Kramer once. All of those injustices were corrected. These aren’t the 1980s anymore. Almost everyone they put forth deserves it, except Dave Robinson and Stabler, and Culp was a reach.
We need two seniors a year again. May Gosselin please be successful in his push for Robinson. It’s been way too long.
Great post Corey! All of you guys are so knowledable. Oh man, I got to believe Gronk is a shoe in HOFer He’s generally regarded as the best TE maybe ever on most of the shows I watch because of his size. I think he’s a bull like Mike Ditka. Plus he’s a great block which some of the others weren’t If you listened to Shannon Sharpe he’ll say no one is better than himself. lol Not a fan of that guy.
How many of you guys think Bill Belichek won’t be with the Patriots next year? I agree with the Big Mouth of the West Colin Cowherd that it’s 50-50. I got a question, after the 30 for 30 special the “Two Bills” who do regard as the better Coach on the field putting their Super Bowl record aside? I know that’s a tough one. lol
Interesting question about Bill Belichick and retiring. He is 65 years old. Some folks coached until their 70s (Marv Levy and George Halas up until age 72, for instance), but others retired at about his age. Could go either way.
Thanks for the kind words Tony.
Belichick still could come back. It does beg the question if it’s more of him or Brady. The Pats had a losing season his first year there in 2000 when Bledsoe started.
Then again, Brady goes down in 2008 and they still go 11-5.
Thanks for the kind words Tony.
Can anyone explain a HOF Coach pulling a 3 year starter in Malcom Butler RIGHT before the Super Bowl game and not giving him one play in the Super Bowl.? He was seen crying during the National Anthem. It doesn’t sound like a credible move especially for someone that wants the support of his players in the future. I think there’s a lot going on behind the scenes with Kraft and the decision to keep Brady over Jimmy Garoppolo long term. And than Belichek practically gives Jimmy Garoppolo away. Than the stories of “tension” lol and now the Butler move. IMO Belichek is being defiant and will be gone. Kraft broke the rule of always letting Belichek buy and sell the groceries. :)
So unlike the MLB HOF the NFL HOF is suppose to be only about play on the field. If that’s the case will Darren Sharper and Jim Tyrer ever be excepted? That would be really tough. I don’t ever see it happening. It’s a shame!
Maybe they could put them in without a ceremony or platform to speak. Hey OJ is still there! lol
Tony and Andy, the only thing IMO this website is missing is the ability to “Like” comments. That said the quality is impressive. You’ll done a great job over the years!
Kraft should get up every morning and kiss each one of Belichek’s rings. Coach has earned every right to be defiant especially regarding the roster. Without Bill B there is no way these Patriots win 5 SBs and he does get to buy and sell the groceries.
Maybe you can’t have “Likes’ without having thumbs down too? In that case I agree with not having. Your website needs to remain positive. That’s a refreshing quality you have. :)
Tyrer is a name that still come up from time to time in the seniors candidate discussions and Sharper has the resume with 2(4)/5, SB, all decade, but I doubt the voters will ever come to support either as it would be a PR nightmare for the PFHOF and HOF especially in this age of awareness and concern over sexual abuse and domestic violence. With so many other qualification candidates it will be easy for voters to simply ignore these two. The PFHOF does not have a personal character or morality requirement for election, so the chance always remains that a player could be elected with a questionable off the field record, and some would claim it was a factor in the past with Chris Carter and Michael Irvin, and most recently TO Some are already saying (not me!) that it was crossed this year with election of Ray Lewis.
Oh and as to Gronk, at this stage his resume is PFHOF strong (5/5/ 2 SBs, 2010s all decade?), so I would see him as a very good candidate to be elected in due course. But do believe the shorter career (yes mostly due to injuries) but also only 8 seasons, would delay his election as it did for T Davis. As to retirement, natural thing for a player who just lost the SB to say, lets see what the coming days, weeks and months bring.
And yes the PFHOF voters historically have down graded the TE position (along with S and G), but here is what I keep reminding people, many of those bias existed for decades and stayed in place for many years when there was very little turnover or new voters on the committee. But the committee has increased in size, seen many old time voters leave and many newer and diverse new voters added. This is not the same committee of the 70s and 80s, and in fact much different from the early 2000s. In last several years I think we are seeing many of the often accepted or taken as a given procedures and voting preferences (and voting blocks) falling by the wayside including better treatment of short careers, less willingness to slot players and line them up for future elections, and welcoming to players from all positions, including P and K. I look at TO and how the possible resistance by a block of voters was broken in just a few years, in the past players with a strong blocking group of voters were kept out for years, in some cases only to fall into the seniors candidate. Plus look at how many full classes are now elected, just over a decade a go a total class (moderns plus seniors) was often only 4-5 total. All of this may make the elections less predictable but I am not so sure that is a bad outcome as we are seeing more deserving players elected and more in a fair and timely manner.
Gronk is 4/5, an All Decade lock, a two time champion and considered one of the best tight ends of all time. His election is when, not if, especially considering the numbers of enshrines who played less than 10 years.
I see a Super Bowl in Jimmy G’s future, maybe even against Brady next year. What a buildup that would be. The script writes itself as that trade could be an all time error on New England’s end, not to men if that does happen, Kyle Shanahan would want revenge from two years prior.
I’m surprised Seymour wasn’t a finalist. He’s arguably in the top two with Gronkowski among players not named Brady from the dynasty worthy of enshrinement.
Paul, that’s great info and encouraging. I do see the step up to get older players in. I don’t see Gronk as Davis because so many think he is the best ever they’ve seen. Max Kellerman said it again today. LOL No I don’t usually agree with that dude but he probably has influence. Also while Gronk has missed alot he has continued his career unlike Davis who didn’t last long . We’ll see but I have Gronk going in 1st or 2nd year. Anything else I’d be surprised.
I”ve only rooted for New England one time ever and that was versus Philly I think in 2004. Not in my DNA as a 30 year fan of the Dolphins through the Marino era. From that Team I grew to really admire Corey Dillion, Willie McGinest and Mike Vrabel. Seymour was really good maybe great for a time but when I think of those early teams I think of their LB’s including Bruschi and Ted Johnson. All do respect to Seymour, Ty Law and Wilfork. Any of those guys a good HOF Candidate? For some reason I thought Vrabel was the special sauce of the D.
I’d have to say no on Corey Dillon (didn’t get to 12,000 career rushing yards), Willie McGinest (0/2/none), Mike Vrabel (1/1/none), and Tedy Bruschi (0/1/none). They may have been special sauce which is a good thing for a sandwich, but hamburger’s what gets in the HoF — if you’ll pardon the labored analogy.
Hahaha Probably right, Wow I’m surprised McGinest doesn’t have a better profile. I’m still rooting for Dillion. Maybe not quite the yards but did play for a crap team in Cinncy. Those were hard fought yards, He was hammer and a tough guy. Loved the year he had with New England.
Ty Law is clearly a good candidate Tony as he survived the cut from 15 to 10 for consecutive years now. Law is clearly the top returning CB on the ballot and I think both him and 2019 first-time eligible Champ Bailey will be the next CBs elected. could be one or both next year but I’m confident they’ll both get elected by 2020. Charles Woodson will then a first-time eligible in 2021 and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Ronde Barber also make the jump to Top 15 finalist by then.
The best chance Vrabel has getting in is if he coaches the Titans or some other team to a Super Bowl title or multiple titles. You never know.
Sorry Paul I mispoke thinking Gronk had played more years. You point taken. Still I think he’ll be viewed more like Sayers than TD.
I need Edit button. lol
Belichek has 3 years left on his contract. I don’t think he’s ready to retire but wouldn’t it be interesting if Kraft traded his HOF Coach? Grueden were traded. It would be historic!! I haven’t heard that idea anywhere. Most people are sure he’ll stay. Note Josh McDaniel seems to be holding off on a taking a job.
Besides TB and BB, the only other NE players I see with solid PFHOF chances as moderns are Gronk, Seymour and Law (players with major career in NE, thus not counting Moss). May be odd that a franchise with 5 SB wins may only end up with 5 PFHOFers, but I think that is the nature of those 5 wins over 16 years and the constant rebuilding of the team with BB forcing out many players before they became too expensive or old or “divas”. And besides QB, at the high profile positions like RB, WR, OT, DE, there were major changes in personal year to year with many of those not having more than 1-2 SBs and small number of quality seasons (all pro, pro bowls etc…).
I have no doubt that Gronk will get into the PFHOF if he retired today, I just wonder if the numbers and awards in an eight year career will be enough to warrant first ballot selection. Only takes 7 or 8 voters to stop a player from advancing at any stage as finalist, could very well be that many that hold his short career against him at least for one year.
Kind of interesting never heard before. Can you imagine specualtion today? LOL http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2010/03/dec-26-1989–i-dont-my-actions-arent-governed-by-furtherest-thing-from-my-mind.html
So although I did watch the game, by this time of year I am burned out by the 24/7 media attention on the NFL, meaning I usually stay away from much of the printed, TV and radio press attention and stories on the SB in the weeks, days and hours leading up to after the game. Although I do focus on any PFHOF news, and perhaps I may have missed it (or in same cases it takes a few days before it lights up as an issue), but seems like the usual and annual tradition of mass media and social media ripping the voters and voting process seems very mute this year. Of course you have your upset Pittsburgh fans (Faneca) and Washington (Jacoby) and occasional Dallas supporter (Walls), but every years some one deserving is left out and those fans are up in arms about it. Perhaps with Moss and TO (and even Lewis and Urlacker to some extent) the lighting rods for these attacks against the process have been dimmed-at least for this year??? Or am I missing out on this annual tradition this year for a change?
im glad you liked 4 of the five i posted corey which position of five should i post next
Ya Paul it was a homerun group and needed to get TO off the table so not much to argue with in the Modern Era. It will all get revved up again. :) I’ll be a sorry evaluator in the future because I must confess to not watching a single game this season. lol I just follow the sports news closely as a Fantasy guy.
I’ve watched a lot of Cowboy games in my day living here in Texas and while Emerson Walls had a freat knack for the ball he didn’t pass the eye test for me. I would say Jacoby marginally did. The TV loved his look and being a quote, Hog.
My prime years of watching games ( especially Cowboys, but also prime time games and playoffs) was 1978-early 2000s so in time my ability to fairly evaluate potential HOFers will be much less. For me the 24/7/365 hype and over saturation of all media has been double edged sword-easy to be informed and follow news but also overexposure and exhaustion year after year and during season. I still follow but not as close or same interest and focus, not so much about the state of game perhaps more about family work and other interests. I tend to be much more selective and focused in my efforts to keep engaged and interested for example no pre or post game shows, more online with less real time watching and instead of 2-3 games every Sunday, more RedZone.
Followed Cowboys since 1977, never thought or saw Everson Walls as a HOFer, was still pleasantly surprised to see him in final 15 and would have had no problem if elected. But frankly many more other players including other current moderns, some from his era, are more deserving, and now in the senior pool also many many more deserving including other DBs-even a fellow Cowboy DB in Cliff Harris. And strongly feel even among just Cowboys, Howley, Pearson and Harris are more deserving. Frankly I hope he does not become a favorite of the committee who turn around in a few years and put him up as a senior-hate hate hate when the new kid on the block suddenly jumps equal or more deserving players who have waited there years
It’s like everything now, there’s too much opinion so you have to take a lot of it a with a grain of salt even with so called reliable sources. lol There’s usually more to the story. Like with the Patriots but I do believe Belichek wouldn’t of wanted to get rid someone as groomed and good as Garoppolo. His hand was forced when Brady came out and said he would continue for 5 more years and Kraft sided with him. I don’t know what will happen but to say there’s “tension” is under said. I don’t know the future but nothing would surprise me. I agree with three Cowboys you mentioned and would add Leroy Jordan although he would never get in. I go back to 1971 with the Cowboys.
This is the first time (born 1972) that all five of the modern era inductees are younger than me. Feeling very old.
Is this first modern class with everyone a post 1990 career ( no one played in league 1980s or earlier)??
Paul, Did you see this on NFL.com?
“Not being elected to the Hall of Fame is not a travesty for Drew Pearson. Yet, according to a voter I spoke with, Pearson’s name has never even come up. Say what?! The former Cowboy great was named first-team All-Decade of the 1970s. Pearson is the only skill-position player named first-team All-Decade from the ’30s, ’40s, ’50s, ’60s, ’70s, ’80s or ’90s to not make it to Canton. And yet, his name never comes up? What the #$@&?! Pearson made this insanely clutch catch to beat the Rams in the playoffs as a rookie. Roger Staubach authored the original Hail Mary — Pearson was the first one to read it. How about his two touchdown catches in the closing minutes of the 1980 Divisional Playoff to knock off the top-seeded Falcons? The three-time All-Pro also started three Super Bowls. OK, I’m done.”
IMO that’s negligance for this group. Pearson is an example of a case where lack of Pro Bowls doesn’t tell tell the story. He’s a HOFer period! If you don’t think so you didn’t see him enough. He’s the greatest sideline WR ever IMO better than even Cris Carter.
I agree about Drew Pearson and hope some day he gets his chance in front of committee as senior (after his now infamous enthusiastic speech at the 2017 draft held in Philadelphia there was some talk that UT would raise his profile as senior candidate) and there were some post election comments in last few days that suggested he is in the mind of seniors committee for once. I think his case has been hurt by poor season and career numbers and no big SB numbers, plus perhaps some push back on Swann and Stallworth elections. But agree that you would be hard pressed to think of another WR in NFL history with major clutch catches in critical games including playoffs. If you use the PFHOF measure of a player who must be included in any definitive history of the NFL then Pearson meets that criteria.
Speaking of Gronkowski, only Jerry Rice has more postseason TD catches. Rice 22, Gronk 12.
Different time with all teams being run first. Running the ball worked well for Green Bay, Miami and Pittsburgh in particular. Back than you just knew a HOF WR by the eye test. Paul Warfield may of been the first 1st ballot HOF WR with Jerry Rice and now Randy Moss since, Warfield had 29 catches in one of Miami SB years. He was still considered the best. I think 14 were TD’s, LOL
2019 prediction – Ed Reed, Tony Gonzalez, John Lynch, Kevin Mawae, Steve Hutchinson, Bob Kuechenberg, Cliff Harris and Gil Brandt
Here is what Rick Gosselin has to say about Johnny Robinson “With Jerry Kramer’s enshrinement, Johnny Robinson is now the only first-team all-decade player of the 1960s without a bust in Canton. He sits at the very top of the queue.”
My early prediction
1. Tony Gonzalez
2. Ed Reed
3. Champ Bailey
4. Kevin Mawae
5. Alan Faneca
6. Johnny Robinson
7. George Young
8. Art McNally
My way too early prediction:
1. Ed Reed
2. Tony Gonzalez
3. Ty Law
4. Alan Faneca
5. Tony Boselli
6. Johnny Robinson
7. George Young
8. Pat Bowlen
Way too early from me prediction
Bailey
Faneca
Gonzalez
Law
Reed
Bowen
Brandt
Johnny Robinson
IEarly or late half my picks are usually wrong lol I didn’t pick Johnny but I sure hope you guys are right.
my way way way too early prediction:
Bailey
Boselli
Gonzalez
Mawae
Reed
Pat Bowen
Art McNally
Johnny Robinson
Let’s hope next year is Robinson’s year. It all depends on if Gosselin is rotated and how much pull he has.
Drew Pearson and Cliff Harris are the only first team all decade players of the 1970’s not to be inducted into the HOF; Harris only a one time finalist and Pearson never a finalist.
The 70’s Cowboys captured two Super Bowl titles, won more games, more playoff appearances and appeared in more Super Bowls than any other team in the decade.
2019 class:
Ed Reed, Champ Bailey, Tony Gonzalez, Tony Boselli and Alan Faneca
Chuck Howley(SC): I believe the most deserving Senior remaining, much less others like Robinson, Harris, Pearson and others.
hmm this is interesting some of us want howley and some of us want robinson interesting
I want both. I just happen to want Robinson more.
im with you corey
To me it’s a great injustice when a great HOF QB who’s known as a passer and doesn’t have a Pro Bowl WR they played with for years in the HOF. You know where I’m going. LOL All I’ll say is when they put Pearson in they better do the same for one of the Mark’s Brothers. Both could be considered the greatest 5’9″ WR’s who ever played. These guys were “tough”, fast and incredibily acrobatic. We all know as great as Marino was he wasn’t Steve Young accurate.
Man I wish I could edit. Second line, WR’s “aren’t in the HOF”
Since joining this board I have been a strong advocate for Howley and every year at announcement time hopeful he would be selected. After years of enduring the frustration of yet again seeing him passed over I have no idea if or when he will be the senior candidate and have yet to read that a member of the committee really come out strong in his support. Yes he in the mix, perhaps in final ten, and as such should be selected soon. But at this point st least Robinson’s name is being tossed around more including by voters so as a prediction that is who I went with as he is also very deserving. But come announcement day in late August if Howley is selected I would be estatic, just not counting on it
The HOF missed a chance to hit an incredibily popular homerun with Kramer and Johnny on the same team which would of gone further to rehabilitate their reputation. Hopefully they went reach for non winners for a few years better know as pick some Cowboys. lol
I would rank my next ten senior candidates as such:
1. Johnny Robinson
2. Chuck Howley
3. Lester Hayes
4. L.C. Greenwood
5.. Alex Karras
6. Cliff Harris
7. Ed Budde
8. Cliff Branch
9. Randy Gradishar
10. Roger Craig
I’ll be really glad when some of these old timer “winners” get in but I can’t ignore they are were robbed of the enjoyment to live as HOFers. Is Howley in good enough shape to even attend? Kramer is an engaging guy and would of been a great HOF ambassador for the game IMO.
That’s a very thought ful list. My only changes would be drop down Craig and Budde slightly and add Bob Kuchenburg and Drew Pearson to the list. My argument for Kuch even though his slightly lower profile is: he was part of 4 SB teams, he made Pro Bowl at both G and T (in the pinch) and his game NEVER leveled off over 13 years.
Now that Kramer is in Johnny Robinson, Kansas City Chiefs All Pro safety is the last member of the NFL Team of the Sixties not in. He should be the Senior Candidate this time. He was selected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s All-time Team (AFL),
NFL Team of the Decade 1960s, Pro Football Hall of Fame’s First All Pro Team, Chiefs’ All-time Team, Chiefs’ Hall of Fame,
Chiefs’ Silver Anniversary Team, All-Time Super Bowl Team Nominee, 6x All AFL First Team, 2x All AFL second team, 8 Pro Bowls,
3x League Championships, 8x Divisional Championships, played Super Bowls I and I, Member of Super Bowl IV Champions,
2x Interception Leader of AFL/NFL 66, 70 (only player to lead two leagues), 5x Interception leader of the Chiefs, 57 career interceptions which was Chiefs record at retirement, Credited to have redefine the role of safety in modern professional football Louisiana Sports HOF, Missouri Sports HOF, LSU Sports HOF, LSU Team of the Century, LSU National Championship.
Sure, why not? My current top 10 Seniors:
Lavvie Dilweg
Al Wistert
Duke Slater
Johnny Robinson
Chuck Howley
Billy Howton
Maxie Baughan
Harold Jackson
Kenny Anderson
Randy Gradishar
Bill Howton at one time in his career was the NFL All time leader in receptions and receiving yards, being the first to break Don Hutson’s marks.
Lester Hayes was NFL Defensive player of the year in 1980 with the SB Champion Raiders. He had 18 total Int’s that year(reg season and playoffs). In 1983, Hayes and Mike Haynes formed what by many is still the best CB duo ever and won another SB title with the Raiders. Hayes made 5 pro bowls, multiple all pro teams and all decade of the 80’s.
Interesting about Howton but I’m not seeing HOF from his stats. He had two great years and very few touchdowns in the rest. Of course I never saw him play. I assume from the teams he played on they all were losers. I’d be disappointed if he got picked over a bunch of other players we’ve mentioned including Lester Hayes. I was a diehard Dolphin fan but the year of 1980 was magical for the Raiders and I rooted for them all through the Playoffs. They were the first WildCard team to win the Super Bowl. I think only the Ravens have done it since but could be wrong. Hayes was unbelievable and Plunkett was so much fun to watch and damn hard to not root for that year.
Does anyone know why the great Don Hutson didn’t start in so many games according to Pro-Reference.
As for Don Hutson my guess would be Pro-Football-Reference’s stats are incomplete as far as starts back then. But, talking about future HOFers, I have this feeling Julius Peppers will be a first ballot HOFer. Now, he will appear on the ballot in 2023 if he retires this off season and it’s down the road, but he should be the best remaining D-Linemen on the ballot by then by far. If he comes back and has a season like last year, he’ll be 3rd all time in sacks, behind Reggie White and Bruce Smith. Of course it took Kevin Greene(who is currently 3rd all time in sacks) 12 years to get enshrined , but his resume vs Peppers’ doesn’t stack up well (3/5/90s for Greene vs 4/9/00s for Peppers, plus DROY ,and a long shot at 2010’s ADT). I’m basing it off of Jason Taylor and Brian Urlacher. They both won DPOY awards, which Peppers never won(Surprisingly. He’s had some pretty impressive years). I just think 4/9/00s is a great resume for a first ballot HOFer. I know a lot of people on here don’t put much stock into first time inductees. I think it’s tough to get in first shot though.
I have also been thinking. Everson Walls made the semifinalists and finalists for the first time ever on a very stacked ballot. it may be due to it being his last year on ballot. I think Steve Atwater might get a late surge coming soon like that. I hope so at least. He is well deserving.
That’s a good thought on Atwater. We might have to adjust our thinking for when we make our final 2018 HOF picks. Other DE’s who will get consideration for 1st Ballot are Demarcus Ware and Jared Allen. They have the same number of sacks at 138. What do you think if JJ Watt comes back and was able to have one more 10 plus sack season than called it quits due to back injuries Can he get into the HOF?
2019! lol I’m tired insomnia a you know what. :)
Tony, I strongly disagree about Howton. He had two years (1952, 1956) where he was pretty clearly the best WR in the NFL, plus a third (1957) where he was considered sufficiently elite to be named a consensus 1st team all pro. Plus he was named 2nd team all pro by at least one organization twice more (1955, 1959). And he played long enough to be an elite compiler at the position — when he retired, he was the career leader in catches and receiving yards. Strong peak, fine career value? That’s a no-brainer for me right there.
Howton also played on terrible teams his entire career, mired on the awful 50s Packer teams and traded just before they broke out and became competitive. He spent a year on the at least halfway decent 1959 Browns squad, then went to the horrendous expansion Dallas Cowboys where he finished his career.
Plus, he deserves major points for his union activism, being an early champion of the NFL Players Union and its first president, where among other things, he forced implementation of a pension plan for the players and fought for revenue on things like trading card royalties and such. It likely cost him career-wise too, as his trade from the Packers and banishment to the expansion Cowboys (which found its roster loaded with jettisoned union activists from other teams) almost surely came from union activities.
I think he’s an absolute must, one of the worst Senior snubs out there.
I knew I had posted a top-70 Seniors list before on another thread here. Here it is updated, today at least:
1-10: Lavvie Dilweg, Al Wistert, Duke Slater, Johnny Robinson, Chuck Howley, Billy Howton, Maxie Baughan, Harold Jackson, Ken Anderson, Randy Gradishar.
11-20: Verne Lewellen, Jim Tyrer, Lemar Parrish, Jimmy Patton, Walt Sweeney, Cliff Harris, Ox Emerson, Del Shofner, Riley Matheson, Dick Barwegen.
21-30: Alex Karras, Winston Hill, Jim Ray Smith, Mac Speedie, Dave Grayson, Cliff Branch, Tommy Davis, Drew Pearson, Bobby Dillon, Gene Brito.
31-40: Bobby Boyd, Billy Wilson, Eddie Meador, Harold Carmichael, Duane Putnam, Joe Fortunato, Deron Cherry, L.C. Greenwood, Bill Forester, Joe Klecko,.
41-50: Ed Budde, Abe Woodson, Joey Browner, George Kunz, Larry Grantham, Tom Sestak, Mark Gastineau, Houston Antwine, Earl Faison, Bill Bergey.
51-60: Pete Retzlaff, Lester Hayes, Art Powell, Joe Jacoby, George Christensen, Jerry Smith, Donnie Shell, Mike Stratton, Gene Lipscomb, Ken Gray.
61-70: Lionel Taylor, Gale Gillingham, Roger Brown, Louis Wright, Marvin Powell, John Niland, Todd Christensen, Otis Taylor, Tommy Nobis, Lee Roy Jordan.
With Lynch (and Reed) on the ballot, Altwater may make one final appearance on the final 15 in 2019 but I suspect that is as far as he gets-and like Jacoby and Walls will end up in the seniors pool.
Jared Allen (4/5) does not strike me as a 1st ballot guy, whereas Ware (4(3)/9,SB,all decade) does.
When J.J Watt does retire he is clearly a PFHOFer at 4/4/3xDPOY, 2010s all decade?, but like Calvin Johnson, Patrick Willis (and possibly Gronk if he retires this year) if Watt retires now, I think voters will hesitate to elect any of them as 1st year candidates due to short careers. As much as one can point to Terrell Davis (3/3/MVP/2SBs/SB MVP/all decade) lets remember he was not elected until his eleventh year of eligibility. Now I am not suggesting that Johnson,Willis, Gronk or Watt would wait that long, but a least a few years is likely.
good lists there bachslunch!! But I wonder how you and others posting here think about the seniors committee view on pre-1960 candidates?
I wonder if perhaps as the seniors pool starts to grow with more additions from another decade (1980s), if the committee has moved on from the early decade candidates especially from 1920s-1940s, and may be in some cases even the 1950s?
It may be that a special election of a larger group of seniors in 2020 could go along ways to final clearing of the pre-1960s eras candidates-although I would hope that such an election would also include some from 1960s and 70s.
I’ll defer to you on Howton but that’s my opinion just from the stats why he might not of been picked. I just don’t think WR was respected much before 1960 unless they played for a winner. Look at Crazy Legs stats who’s stats don’t quite match Howton. I see your point now.
That said I wonder if we’ll ever see another player put in that played pre-1960. I’m thinking there won’t be a lot of input for the older players and the Commitee may right off as complete some time soon if they haven’t already and the 60’s is on the clock. I know that view sucks to hear but I think it’s reality. I hope I’m wrong!
I notice you don’t have any Miami Dolphins. hmm Gotta put in Bob Kuchenburg who was part of at the time the greatest Offensine Line ever. HOF C-Langer, HOF G-Little, T- Norm Evans and T- Wayne Moore. He came so close to being in multiple times. Wow I thought Otis Taylor was in already. I’ve researched a lot of these so I’ll pick a group of deserving that I want in most from your lengthy list.
Johnny Robinson, Chuck Howley, Harold Jackson, Ken Anderson, Randy Gradishar. Cliff Branch, Alex Karras, Jim Tyrer, Drew Pearson, Harold Carmichael, L.C. Greenwood, Joe Klecko,.Ed Budde, Larry Grantham, Bill Bergey. Lester Hayes, Joe Jacoby, Jerry Smith, Donnie Shell, Todd Christensen, Otis Taylor, Tommy Nobis, Lee Roy Jordan.
I think their must be some more players from the 80’s who would be good candidates. I would add off the top of my head John Brodie, Mike Curtis, Jake Scott, Dick Anderson and of course Bob Kuchenburg..
Funny how they talk about Tom Brady like he’s the only QB who played great at an older age. Maybe not at 40 but Earl Morral Comeback POY at 38,, Brodie MVP at 35, YA Tittle MVP at 35,36 and 37, Johnny Unitas MVP at 34 and managed a team to SB at 37. Otto Graham MVP at 34 his last year, Sammy Baugh PB at 37 Roger Stauback PB and best year was his last at 37.
Just read your comments Paul. Thanks for the good feedback. Sounds like we may be thinking alike on potential for many more pre-60 players to make it. Gotta happen some time you would think. Maybe the rare case I suppose.
Having no Dolphins is just the bad luck of the draw; like the Vikings, they’re in pretty god shape re the Senior backlog. Bob Kuechenberg might be the best not in from the Senior pool, though his 2/6/none profile is a little thin for me; have heard he may look good in film study, but just not sufficiently sure of that. Otherwise, we’re talking folks like Jake Scott (4/5/none), Dick Anderson (2/3/70s), Bill Stanfill (2/5/none), and Bob Baumhower (2/5/none). Scott might have the best argument of the bunch, though he, like the rest of these folks, is a short career guy.
QB is one of the most over-represented positions in the HoF, though I think Anderson is must regardless. John Brodie and Roman Gabriel would be next in line at the position after him — but Anderson is in a class by himself in the Senior backlog.
Not sold on Mike Curtis (2/4/none, also looks middling at Crippen’s film study site).
Forgot QB Craig Morton, had his best season at 38 Hahaha just saw John Hadl made the PB throwing 15 Td’s and 26 ints with a 4-9-1 team, hmmm
Fair analysis on my Dolphins. Jake Scott was SB MVP and Dolphins say he was the catalyst for the team;s toughness. He hit like a John Lynch and was involved in one of the biggest trades of the 70’s when he joined fellow Safety Ken Houston with Redskins.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/sports-columns/ron-kantowski/jake-scott-super-bowl-forgotten-hero-resurfaces-at-las-vegas-drag-race/
I remember a MNF or Playoff game where Dick Anderson intercepted Ken Anderson 4 times. lol I think that was his DPOY.
I think the top of the Senior Candidate list should be Johnny Robinson who has been deserving for many years, over thirty to be exact, He was the victim of having voters from NFL cities during his time and there existed a strong bias against the AFL which was the result of fierce rivalry that existed then and somewhat now.
Johnny Robinson was as superstar in his day. He was selected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s All-time AFL Team, The NFL Team of the Decade 1960s (Which he now is the only member of that team not yet inducted, Probably the greatest Team ever chosen. He was selected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s First All Pro Team which was a selection of the greatest players since the game began and immortalized in the Hall of Fame. He played in Super Bowl I and Super Bowel IV. IN super Bowl IV he played with three broken ribs from the game the week before against Oakland Raiders. He was member of the Super Bowl IV Championship Team. 3x League Championships, 8x Divisional Champions, 6x All AFL First Team, 2x All AFL 2nd Team,
8x Pro Bowls, 2x Interception Leader of the AFL/NFL (Only player to lead two leagues), 57 career interception which was most in Chiefs history, 5x interception leader of the Chiefs ( Credited as redefining role of saftey in modern pro football),
,17 career touchdowns, played in the two longest games in professional football history. Chiefs were an amazing 35-1-1 when Robinson made and interception which was a 89.12% winning percentage. He was a real impact player. member of Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame, Missouri Sports Hall of Fame, LSu Sports Hall of Fame , LSU Team of the Century, LSU National Championship Team, Kansas City Chiefs’ All-time Team, Kansas City Chiefs’ Hall of Fame, Chiefs’ Silver Anniversary Team, All-time Super Bowl Team Nominee, Lance Alworth is on record stating that Johnny Robinson was the greatest defensive player that he ever played against. Jack Kemp, JOhn Hadl , Joe Namath and Daryl Lamonica, Don Meredith all stated that Johnny Robinson was the best defensive back they ever played against. Robinson was profiled on Monday Night Football game against the Baltimore Colts in 1970 as the greatest safety to ever play the game
Interestingly enough, one could make a case for the Anderson/Scott duo as the second best safety pair in NFL history. Only better one I can think of would be Yale Lary and Jack Christensen of the 50s Lions, both HoFers.
Anderson/Scott are unfortunately just another case where for decades the voters simply ignored the safety position as also evidenced by the number of all decade safeties still in the seniors candidates pool.
It seems to me another trend that we may be starting to see with NFL players is those who have had successful careers (SBs, earned big money contracts, awards etc..) deciding to retire with less than 10 yr careers (in some cases 7 or 8 years only) due to concerns over long term health issues-and already having lifetime financial security. Clearly not seen with players like Brady, Brees, BenR, Eli and others pushing 15+ yr careers but Calvin Johnson and Patrick Willis are recent examples (and Gronk and Watt may be others). May be an interesting trend in coming years that will rise as a question or issue as soon as election finalist lists in the 2020s.
George Blanda started a game at 41 and won. He threw 3 passes at 48. lol Not exactly Tom Brady but impressive to me for the time. Gordy Howe of football. :)
I liked your comments.
Another interesting fact about Johnny Robinson is that he played running back his first two seasons in pro football and was excellent before being moved to safety for his leadership on defense. That season they won the championship and he recorded two critical interceptions that game which at the time was the longest professional game in history with double overtime. He then played the next ten seasons as safety winning eight division championships and three total league championships and a Super Bowl. He recorded a critical end of game interception against Buffalo in the end-zone to help propel the Chiefs into Super Bowl i. He made critical play against Oakland in AFL playoffs where he broke three ribs and started and played entire Super Bowl IV the following week making an interception and fumble recovery. Johnny Robinson made 57 interception playing only ten years of his twelve year career. Also, he had 17 touchdowns. No telling how many more interceptions he would have made if he had played safety his entire career. He meaningful play and made critical timely interceptions that made him a real impact player.
Johnny was one hell of a great athelete and a pass catching RB. All those Ints weren’t by accident. He played RB back at LSU next to Heisman winner Billy Cannon. They were good!
I always wanted to do this so here it goes: I made a list of the top QBs for Senior Nominee:
1. Ken Anderson
2. John Brodie
3. Phil Simms(I know he is still eligible but he has no shot as a modern era candidate and I believe 2019 will be his last time on the ballot)
Those 3 seem obvious to me. Then the next tier are in no order because to was hard for me to do so: Jim Plunkett, Earl Morrall, Daryle Lomonica,Tobin Rote, John Hadl Roman Gabriel, Frankie Albert(If he had a longer career he’d be in by now).
Then these next ones probably have no shot due to the Senior Pool being so deep, but definitely had good careers: Charlie Conerly, Joe Theismann, Jim Hart, Danny White, Jack Kemp,Jim Hart.
In about 30-35 years this list will change. We’ll have perhaps names like Boomer Esiason, Donovan McNabb, Tony Romo, Carson, Palmer, Vinny Testaverde, Drew Bledsoe, David Krieg,Joe Flacco, Matthew Stafford on it. The last 2 are still active and could still have a career worthy of the HOF. If I were to guess who has the better shot it would be Matthew. I can see him getting to around 55-65k yards passing, which in any era would get you a bust; but in this era it may be like getting 1,000 receptions for a WR(In the year 2000, just Jerry Rice had 1,000 receptions. Now we have 14 and will continue to add up as the years go by as I expect Brandon Marshall, Antonio Brown and Julio Jones to eclipse that number the rate they’re playing).
Tell me what you think about my lists. I can see QBs added or taken off it and switched out of tiers.
Isn’t it odd how old so many of these players are living to be in a game that’s so brutal?
Brad, I’ve changed my mind on John Brodie. A real Pro, great man with a nice story near the end who threw a really nice ball but not a HOFer. The stats just don’t add up. Simms and Anderson should be. I loved watching some of these players (Plunkett, Hart, Gabriel and of course Morrall but don’t see any HOFers.
“Isn’t it odd how old so many of these players are living to be in a game that’s so brutal?”
I think better overall heathcare, training, conditioning, diet etc…. all helps, especially when players can come back from what would have been a career ending injury just a few decades ago. But I do think as awareness about long term health impacts especially concussions increases, but also back, knees etc… – plus even average players can retire by age 30 after just one big second contract or FA deal – the incentive to leave the game including after a SB is going up. Look at case of Romo, yes ever never got to the SB, but back problems made him consider his future health, so he leaves the game with $100 million in career earnings, jumps right into a nice paying gig, and can play golf and spend time with his family.
There are likely always going to be a few really dedicated players who just love the game, want to win, and will stay in the game into their late 30s, but not so sure they will be as common in the coming decades compared to now.
Frankly never felt that Phil Sims had much of a case for PFHOF; 1(2), SB MVP, with average/below average career numbers, one great season (1986) just seems weak.
Besides Anderson, there are no current QBs who I see better than many other senior candidates from other positions, and as for Boomer Esiason, Donovan McNabb, Tony Romo, Carson, Palmer, Vinny Testaverde, Drew Bledsoe, David Krieg,Joe Flacco, Matthew Stafford-still not a real strong one in the group in my view.
Historically the seniors candidate path has not favored QBs very well (likely as the modern candidate path has served them very well indeed), seems like those that then fall into the seniors pool that special focus played to QBs is gone-and players from other positions with more all pro selections, all decade teams, etc…. can out complete them for the seniors slot.
I like the Simms stats for wins, yards and TDs. We’re overlooking one of the
Brady is chasing Vinny Testeverde for oldest playing QB.
l
let me simpifly it for everyone Anderson yes Brodie Maybe Simms On the Fence bwt paul do you decide who is worthy or not
Lets see, I said we were overlooking someone when the ambien kicked in. I’ll work on recalling that. LMAO
Thought I’d take a look at a couple of adjusted-for-era QB rankings for the non-HoFers, specifically Chase Stuart and Kiran Rasaretnam. Stuart’s is a single catch-all number ranking, while Rasaretnam breaks down into best4/best7/best10.
In both systems the best QB not in by far is Anderson. After that it gets a little bit conflicted, though Stuart especially likes Brodie, with Hadl and Gabriel not too far behind. Rasaretnam’s approach gives an edge to Gabriel with Brody a little further back, followed a little bit of distance by folks like Charlie Conerley and Hadl. Phil Simms lags a good bit behind all of them. The QBs mentioned with first Stuart’s ranking and then Rasaretnam’s 4/7/10 listings:
Anderson. 10; 3/3/5
Brodie. 17; 35/23/16
Gabriel. 28; 21/17/15
Hadl. 22; 50/40/25
Conerley. 44; 38/36/23
Simms. 82; 60/42/33
So when I say Anderson is in a class by himself with Brodie and Gabriel the next most qualified, that’s where I’m coming from.
I’m not sure I’d even consider any the other Senior QBs, and that definitely goes for Simms. I’d for certain pick Hadl or Conerley ahead of him, especially given that they each have one title under their belt like Simms does.
Here’s the link to Rasaretnam’s rankings:
http://newqbrating.blogspot.com/2010/04/c-scores-new-way-to-evaluate-pro.html#sthash.lSVVvetB.dpuf
And here’s the link to Stuart’s rankings:
http://www.footballperspective.com/the-greatest-qb-of-all-time-v-part-ii-career-rankings/
Paul I appreciated your consideration for the health of today’s players but my curiosity is why we don’t see CTE much in the players of the 60’s anf 70’s when the rules were more liberal toward hitting. Is the whole thing overblown or is it something more prevelant with the size and speed of players. I don’t know but I gotta believe Dick Butkis and Tommy Nobis rang plenty of bells. Maybe there is a whole big population of sufferers I’m niave to. I just haven’t heard of many issues to players pre- 1980; I mean look at some of the high profile guys who we know took their share of licks like Frank Gifford , Dick Lebeau, Bob Greise, Terry Bradshaw, Dick Butkis, Mike Ditka, Roger Staubach, Jim Brown ect…
I saw the HOF special on the players selected for 2018 last night. I’m glad Jerry Kramer has a good attitude and seems to be enjoying the process at such old age. Of course TO was no where to be seen for the show with his “brothers”. It will be interesting to see if he takes advantage to rehabilitate his repution with his speech to the football world.
Good job finding souces to back up your opinions. They are tools not determiners as they acknowledge. The best Chad Pennington years don’t mean much to me and they can’t judge clutch. I guess the year was 2010 of article. The second source says Anderson isn’t a HOFer. I think they just leave out too many intangibles. They are what they are and I’d say the first guy fot it more right. I’d use as reference.
Hmm my bad!! The first does say best “passer” and hello the second is not recommending that Anderson isn’t a HOFer. The second is a lot better than I thought. Still wouldn’t have Anderson so high. I did watch a lot of his games and wasn’t real clutch and very mistake prone durging first half of career in what I saw.
Any of these lists can’t weight in rules in favor of Offense. I still like Johnny Unitas right near the top. Love Marino but he’s not top five of QB Rank list. I think it’s too hard to make a formula that will be anything more than an aide.
Tony, we may not “see CTE much” in older players as much because of under-reporting of the issue more than anything else. My guess is that it has always been there, just not appreciated or acknowledged as much.
In addition, players have become bigger and more athletic over time and that may have resulted in more damage to the recent players when hit, bringing about catastrophic circumstances down the road more easily.
Regarding the two QB ranking lists, two things:
-sabermetric style thinking in football is still in its infancy, plus the sport being more of a team game than baseball brings more variables into account. I think we’re still in the development stage to an extent on this. Still, I like a system that seems to produce viable results, and these two seem pretty on the mark. I think they’re about the best out here on the subject as of now, and of much value.
-Rasaretnam’s rankings occurred in 2010 if memory serves, which means the most recent players are based on incomplete data. And it looks likely he has passed away, so regrettably there may be no further updating or refining of the approach unless someone takes it on as their pet project.
Good insight I’m learning. :) I’m going to research the CTE subject and get back with what I find.
The CTE issue to date is very uncertain and complex but also at same time very disconcerting. I think that there are now close to 100 donated brains from former players showing telltale evidence of CTE and hundreds of players sued the NFL over heath care claims related to CTE from concussions. The science and understanding is far from settled and known and is focus on many studies but it is an issue of concern for players, and not just from the oldest of them who played in the 1960s and earlier. Tony Dorsett is just one case of a player you would not think of first in terms of CTE but has been very vocal about his health and related issues. It is also very possible that until recently many players who died suffering from memory loss and dementia were very unreported and no cause noted. And yes these same health issues are all too common in the general population so challenge remains to tie a cause and effect specially from head injuries and concussions from football. But what is has raised is the discussion and debate among current and former players and their families and my point is whether it will cause more players to retire earlier than in past especially those that have had successes with financial rewards and championships. Its impact to youth and HS football is also a concern in terms of future player development. I am not saying that the game is suddenly going to disappear along with no pipeline of new players coming out of HS and college into the NFL, but could change the quality of depth and skills we have become familiar within the pro game in the coming decades. No one knows whether bigger or faster players are creating a greater risk, as at the same time there is much more preventative and intervention in the case of head injuries than has existed in the past. And yes in many ways the game was much more violent in the past, but would suspect many of the subsequent heath impacts were simply explained away as getting older. But it is clearly an issue on the minds of current players (along with long term health issues with knees, back) that they can see in the limited mobility and health impacts to retired players, some not yet that old but clearly suffering,
Yes I remember about Tony Dorsett, Their need to be more player who are vocal but I’m sure NFL doesn’t want that. I have followed some. So important that young brains are protected, goes for soccer too.
If you had to guess who do you think will be the 15 finalists in 2019? I think this would be a given: Bailey, Boselli,Bruce, Faneca, Gonzalez, Hutchinson, James, Law,Lynch and Mawae. The last five spots have just in my opinion are Barber, Butler, Holt, Johnson and Rice. I think contributor will be Bowlen and McNally. Young or Brandt would also be fine. I have Robinson as the Senior Nominee. I would like to see Howley or Pearson get consideration.
Rob.
There will be 11 as you forgot about Ed Reed. If we take the 8 returning finalists plus Reed, Gonzalez and Bailey I think it’s fair to say they will make up the bulk of the next two HOF Classes. Of the first time eligibles in 2020 I can only see Troy Polamalu and Patrick Willis breaking into the Top 15 at the first time of asking. So that’s 13 names fighting for 10 spots.
Things start getting tough again in 2021 with P.Manning and C.Woodson effectively only leaving 3 available spots among the other 12 finalists.
I wonder if AP is coming back for another year? IMO should hang’em up.
@Boknows34 Yes I forgot to include Reed. So that leaves 4 finalists out 15 who do you think it will be?
I really think they need to squeeze in Zach Thomas somewhere in the semifinalist list. His stats are really similar to Urlacher.
I would expect Zach Thomas to start appearing in 25 semifinalist list and maybe even final 15. Other “new” or returning names to the 2019 final 15 could include Jimmy Johnson, Don Coryell, Steve Atwater, Karl Mecklenburg (last year as modern), Simeon Rice or Richard Seymour.
So I would go with 2019 final 15 as
Steve Atwater
Champ Bailey
Tony Boselli
Isaac Bruce
Alan Faneca
Tony Gonzalez
Steve Hutchinson
Edgerrin James
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
John Lynch
Kevin Mawae
Karl Mecklenburg
Ed Reed
Zach Thomas
Wow, Zach Thomas getting some love. Big Dolphins fan as you know . Thomas was a tackling machine and over-achiever, that said I don’t think as a LB in the time he played his game was diverse enough to be a HOFer. I remember his play hurting them too much in the bigger games. I guess I’m agreeing with the bad pass coverage D reputation he had. I’m always glad to see a Dolphin player get in the HOF but I wouldn’t be a supporter of his. Yes I know he has the accolades. I’m sure he’ll eventually get in.
As an emerging Texans fan back in the day, I can’t but help but think when I hear the name Boselli, there’s that big name trade that flopped because he got hurt. lol I don’t know about him, he was awesome but was he as good as Ogden, Water Jones and Roaf? Maybe as good as Jones but his career was short and since when do we have treat OL like RB’s? I wouldn’t support him to get in
I didn’t remember right. Boselli was the Team’s 1st pick in the expansion draft. I knew it sucked!
Well Zach certainly has a PFHOF profile of 5(2)/7/all decade, as does Boselli at 4/4/all decade, to me if you are all decade you should be in and way to many all decade players already in seniors pool.
Including Jimbo Covert ? lol
I wouldn’t support Leroy Butler from 1990 Decades Team either. Roaf was second team behind Boselli. Unless the voters change their attitude Boselli’s short career he won’t get in until a Senior. Funny how Bruce Smith said Richmond Webb was the best he ever played against unless he didn’t play Boselli. Could of given Webb more respect I suppose because he played him twice a year for years. I thought Ogden was the best of their time with Roaf a close second. Upon more reflection I would say the NFL got it right by putting Boselli ahead of Roaf but Roaf did it at such a high level for so long his career easily surpasses Boselli IMO
In a golden era of Left Tackles, Boselli was a 1st team All Pro for three consecutive years (97-99) in the late 90s and a 1st team All Decade. I’ll always remember that playoff game in 1996 when he totally dominated Bruce Smith in his prime. That’s when I knew he was special.
Boselli’s short career was the only thing stopping him from joining Jon Ogden and Walter Jones as a first ballot choice. There’s no doubt he’s a HOFer. You know one when you one despite the short career. I mean, if people consider Rob Gronkowski to have done enough already to be a HOFer if he never played another game, then Boselli is a fair comparison.
Gronk
102 regular season games
5 Pro Bowls
4 All Pros (1st team)
All Decade 2010s? – almost certain
Boselli
91 regular season games
5 Pro Bowls
3 All Pros (1st team)
All Decade 1990s
Not sure why you would thinks voters are not supporting Boselli’s case when after only on the ballot for a few years he has been in final ten each of last two elections positioning to be elected in next few years
I like you’re post Bo. That said Tackle isn’t a skill position. I believe it should matter. While does Paul say 4/4? To me 5 PB’s looks slightly better.
Paul, if I recall back in my school days 10 or more years was considered “many” not exactly a ringing endorsement by the voters for someone who was considered the best Tackle . . Maybe he’ll get in soon because politicking for “your guy” has greater weight as each year goes by. I believe if Johnny Robinson had the support Jerry Kramer’s had from Green Bay fans he would already be in the HOF. Did you see the HOF Special on the NFL Network? I don’t doubt the Packer fans deluged the Committee with mail every year. Just like the fans did with Floyd Little. So much for bias against the AFL. He played 9 years, had one 1,000 yd rushing season and didn’t even avg. 4.0 yds per carry for career. I know he was fun to watch because he was an all-purpose player. Denver’s one shining light in 15 years of futility. Doesn’t make him HOF worthy IMO. Yup 2010 should of been Johnny Robinson’s year but instead they reached for losing team players. Did it again with 3 time Pro Bowler Dick LeBeau after he gets a bunch of attention after the Steelers 2009 SB win.
Shouldn’t look back but I keep thinking about how Johnny’s going to be 80 years old this year and has been robbed of the satisfaction of the greatest honor. For the record Johnny’s the same humble great man he’s always been. He still puts in his time every day at the Boy’s Home he runs in Louisiana for so many years. He’s making a difference in his community. :)
Hmmm. just saw that Boselli was 2nd Team All – 90’s not 1st. I know you gotta watch out using Wikipedia. I’d take Richmond Webb before Boselli.
As to my “many” comment I was referring to the election results of each the last two years where Boselli received enough votes from the committee to advance into the final 10 (as did Mawae and Law), historically that is a strong indication of pending election. Thus I do not think Boselli is at risk of eventually falling into the seniors pool-in fact his election is very likely in the next 1-3 years- that was the point I was making. And yes there is a current logjam of 4 OL on the ballot, but from what I can tell no other quality new OL appear on the ballot from 2019-2023 (and some of those classes only have 1 or 2 very likely 1st ballot HOFers), so very good chance all 4 OL get elected in the coming years, including perhaps as many as 2 next year. Especially considering no OL have been voted in last two elections. Those OL could go in any order, but clearly there is support from the voters for Boselli, but well aware that the logjam needs to break and resolve split voting as what as needed recently with WR and S positions.
I think Boselli is deserving, but so are the other 3 OL – hence the challenge for the voters. But frankly I do not care what order they go in as they are all deserving and all are getting in PFHOF. If the voters can break the logjam by first electing others besides Boselli (whose short career may be seen by some voters as a negative), then so be it. Any election of 1-2 OL in 2019 will clear the deck for all 4 to get elected.
And I agree with you 100% on the case for Robinson (which is separate issue from Boselli), and yes no doubt years of pressure from fans would have had some influence on the senior committee to select Kramer as a candidate. But I am not going to take issue with that approach or the outcome as I think Kramer has a very strong case. At this I am just not sure what it is going to take to get Robinson elected and not aware of any efforts by KC or its fans to place pressure via a writing campaign, or whether any member of the seniors committee is advocating hard for his selection. I am also with you in regards to how Robinson (and some other seniors, most notably Howley) are also very deserving and are quickly reaching a point in their lives where health concerns are very serious, yet we have a recent history (much discussed here) of senior candidates nominated and eventually elected of lesser qualifications, for examples I would point to:
2016 – KEN STABLER, DICK STANFEL
2014 – RAY GUY, CLAUDE HUMPHREY
2013 – CURLEY CULP, DAVE ROBINSON
2012 – JACK BUTLER, Dick Stanfel
2011 – LES RICHTER
2010 – DICK LeBEAU, FLOYD LITTLE
I have no idea who the 2019 senior candidate would be as it appears several names (including Robinson and Howley) are in the mix, and when only 5 committee make the final decision it could go one of many different ways. I fear we will lose both Robinson and Howley before they are elected and frankly I am holding out for a special larger class of seniors in 2020 as a means of getting them both elected along with other top deserving candidates, especially pre 1970s players.
Great insight Paul! No issue at all with Kramer.
Johnny Robinson (1960-72) was the top three senior candidates last year with Kramer and Brezile. Now that Jerry Kramer was voted into the HOF, Johnny Robinson is the last member of that NFL Team of the Decade 1960s to be left. That team is known as the greatest Team of Decades. Quite literally the Legends of the game. A virtual ‘who’s who of professional football up and down that team. Johnny Robinson was recognized as the best safety of his day and the player who redefined the role of safety in modern professional football. A list of his accomplishments and awards are lengthy but here are a few:
Member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s All-Time Team (AFL)
Member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s First All Pro Team-(First Team)
Member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s NFL Team of the Decade 1960s
Member of the Kansas City Chiefs’ Hall of Fame
Member of the Kansas City Chiefs All-time Team
Member of the Chief’s Silver Anniversary Team
HOF’s All-Time Super Bowl Team Nominee
6x All League First Team, 2x All League Second Team, 7 consecutive Pro Bowls. 17 career touchdowns
Played Super Bowl I and IV, Member of Super Bowl IV Championship Team despite having played with three broken ribs making an interception and fumble recovery during the game. Was the defensive leader of the powerful Chiefs’ defense.
3x AFL Championships, 8x Divisional Championships, Super Bowl IV Championship,
2x Interception Leader of the AFL / NFL (only player to have ever led two leagues),
57 career interceptions was Chiefs team record at retirement and was leader among all active pro players at retirement. Was third on the all-time list at retirement. Was five times the interception leader of the Chiefs. Outstanding running back his first two years in pros before being switched to safety where they won the 1962 Championship in double overtime that year.. Robinson made two interceptions that game. When Robinson made an interception during a game the Chiefs were an amazing 35-1-1 (789.12 winning percentage) compared to a 553. percentage when he didn’t make an interception.
Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame
Missouri Sports Hall of Fame
LSU National Championship Team
LSU Sports Hall of Fame
LSU Team of the Century
Should have read when Johnny Robinson made an interception in a game for the Kansas City Chiefs they were 35-1-1 an (89.12%) winning percentage. That is a real impact player! Robinson is most deserving for senior candidate. He is long overdue more tha thirty years. He should have been the first safety in HOF. Lance Alworth is on record stating that Johnny Robinson was the best defensive player he played against. Don Maynard stated he was the best safety along with Tom Flores, Bobby Bell, Curly Culp, Chris Burford, Don Meredith and John Hadl. His contemporaries thought he was the best and belongs in the Hall of Fame.
Tommy: I am just curious how would we know that Johnny Robinson (1960-72) was the top three senior candidates last year with Kramer and Brazile? Typically the seniors selection committee (nor the PFHOF) does not release names of those discussed and the voting results. For some years the semi-finalist list of 10 seniors (based on votes of all members of the seniors committee) links out, but in terms of the voting by the 5 committee members who make the final selection, including reduction votes from from 10 to 5 and then final decision are not publicly released. We know Robinson is in the mix and would great if he finished 3rd this year, but do we really know that as confirmed fact?
Plus here is one really important caveat about the voting and selection of a senior candidate. Each year different members of the full seniors selection committee 9 members rotate off and others onto the 5 member subcommittee who meets, discusses, votes and determines the selection. As a result that mix of people on the committee changes each year, hence preferences and voting patterns also change. In other words just because a candidate may have been 3rd one year, does not mean he holds a similar level of support the next.
Again I hope and wish that Robinson was in fact held in such high regard this year and will again for 2019, but I have followed this senior candidate selection process too closely for too long to have any expectations as to how it plays out year to year, including based on any information we may gather from the recent years selection process.
Amen Paul! It’s fools gold to get expectations too high with these people. lol. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone not supportive of Johnny since I found this site over 10 years ago. Yet I have to assume someone who’s counted through the years must of been reluctant. I’d say the same for Howley. I hope those people or person has retired!
Senior selection committee needs to have term limits of 10 years. haha that won’t happen! We need a Convention of the States just like for Congress and Supreme Court. LOL
Like it’d ever happen — but they couldn’t do better than the brightest folks here and at the PFRA site as the Senior selection committee. Get this backlog sorted out in comparative no time.
Yes I would like to see a larger senior selection committee (say 15 voters from the full committee), with all participating in the final vote (not just a rotation of 5) and those 15 each have three year terms, for example every three years 1/3 members rotate off and are replaced. I would also be willing to consider adding some voting members who are current PFHOFers, perhaps 3-5 out of that 15, who would also have three year terms and rotate off and be replaced. I just think leaving the decision up to same 9 people – and the only 5 of them making the selection each year-is not giving enough mix of new views and opinions. I mean think about it, it is likely that the final 10 are very similar each year, perhaps a few new ones are added, so year after year after year the same people are debating many of the same people-how productive and insightful is that??
If only the Senior Committee consisted of all of us.
yup, ZoneBlitz! ZoneBlitz! ZoneBlitz! hahaha
Larry Fitzgerald is coming back for at least 1 more year. He needs 92 receptions to be in sole position of 2nd all time in receptions. He has had over 100 in each of the last 3 seasons. I expect him to move into that 2nd slot next year. And who knows, maybe he comes back 1 more time and gets to 1,400 receptions. It’s nearly inevitable he will become the 2nd leading receiver in yards too. He is already a possible first ballot HOFer, but if he can have a Pro Bowl season this upcoming year, he’ll be well positioned for 1st time enshrinement.
If PFHOF voters can elect Moss in his first year there is no reason that even if Larry Fitzgerald retired today that he should not also be 1st ballot selection….. insert mike drop here…..
Larry Fitzgerald is class personified. The NFL could of used more of his look this past season. I wonder if the players will be on the field this year for the National Anthem?
Fitzgerald is top class both on and off the field and will be the next WR to be a 1st ballot HOFer.
Pushing back his retirement by a year will also allow more time to clear another potential backlog at WR. Now that Moss and TO are in, we have Bruce, Holt and Ward as returning semi-finalists, Bruce as a finalist.
Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson and Steve Smith will all be on the ballot between 2-4 years before Fitzgerald. One more season for Larry and he’d be eligible in 2024.
I’ll defer to you guys on how soon Holt should get in. Not a name I think about when I think about the best career’s at WR but can’t ignore his accolades. I guess in this new age of spread offenses there’ll be a lot WR’s getting into the HOF and that’s a new phenomenon I’m not used too.
I am not really sure where Holt in fits in with the parade of WRs now on the ballot and more to come in next several years. And have no idea how PFHOF voters are going to sort them out, I think Bruce will be next in 2020 or 2021, but after that voters will struggle, and it is also very possible like the OL on the current ballot, that a logjam at WR could stall elections for a few years due to vote splitting.
http://talesfromtheamericanfootballleague.com/sign-the-petition-and-spread-the-word-johnny-robinson-for-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame/
Thanks Tony, I added my name
very cool! I bet a bunch of people will if they see Johnny’s accomplishments and can find the website.
It wasn’t necessary but thanks to Paul and Tony for correcting name breach. You guys rock!
signed the johnny robinson petiton
What do you all think about the prospects of this class (from 2018 current/possible retirements)?
Class of 2023 first year eligible candidates 20023: Darrelle Revis ? Adrian Peterson? Julius Peppers? Antonio Gates? Dwight Freeney? Marshawn Lynch? Frank Gore?
Jason Witten probably has only one more year left at most. Apparently he’s already been offered a TV job.
Glad that both LBs made it first ballot, but not that selectors appear to be passing over 1990s safeties. Dawkins’ early induction before any of those older guys may be a terrible signal. On senior candidates I, of course, still think Howley is the most deserving as he has been for many years now.
Unfortunately my experiences with “Dallas representative” Rick Gosselin on the Talk of Fame site in recent years have been discouraging and have reinforced my critical postings of him here and elsewhere. Despite prodding by me and other posters he wouldn’t publicly state that Howley (or any other Cowboy) deserves to be in the HoF.
A while back he posted an interactive poll of the most deserving senior candidates not yet in for readers to vote on, and he didn’t even include Chuck Howley in the 8 options. Non Cowboys fans are baffled that guys like Howley, Harris, and Pearson aren’t in Canton. Someone above mentioned historian John Turney. Turney chose Chuck Howley as his starting Mid Decade 1965-75 OLB recently, alongside Dick Butkus and Bobbie Bell, and ahead of HoFers Chris Hanburger, Dave Robinson, and Dave Wilcox. Sitting in that prestigious spot makes his omission from Canton even more glaring.
ToF writer and HoF selector Clark Judge has been more supportive of Cowboys. He’s assured me more than one once that Gosselin is supposedly a good advocate for these guys. I like Judge but I just haven’t seen it. Either Gosselin is extremely cagey in public for some strange reason or he’s more anti-Dallas than the typical national media figure, which is saying something. Unless something changes, the prospects don’t look bright for any Cowboy getting a senior nomination as long as Gosselin is squatting in the Dallas spot. One can’t even be sure about Jason Witten’s chances for Canton since Gosselin has publicly talked him down about every time I’ve seen him mention Witten.
PS – Paul, Drew Pearson’s season numbers weren’t “poor”, they were excellent for his era.
Rasputin, with an 11 yr career Pearson was in the top 10 in receptions-only 3 seasons, yards-5 seasons, TDs-only 2 seasons; led league one season in yards (never in receptions), his 3/3/SB/All Decade team profile certainly makes him worthy of PFHOF consideration along with several famous key game winning catches. But his low career and season numbers (still taking into account the era he played) plus was basically a non-factor in the 3 SBs he played in have hurt his cause with the voters. Again I strongly support his case and feel he is very deserving, I was only pointing out the counterview some have of him.
As to Gosselin, I tend not to put too much weight on the views or voting patterns of one voter (out of 48) in regards to modern candidates, thus Witten’s qualifications will stand and by judged regardless of how Gosselin views him, and just because he played for DAL does not even mean Gosselin would present him as a finalist. Since Gosselin is one of only 9 senior committee members (and some years rotates onto the 5 member selection committee who makes the final decision on the senior candidate to be presented for vote by the full committee), the potential for him to have a key role and voice for/against Cowboy players does exist. But again he is one voice/one vote and we are well aware that at least in the case of Howley there is support for his selection as a senior candidate- is Gosselin blocking or advocating for his election, who knows. But recent history shows Gosselin has certainly advocated for others besides Howley which would seem to suggest in that case he may be a barrier.
Joe Thomas has announced his retirement. HOF23
Yep. we have our first HOF Class of 2023 enshrinee in Joe Thomas 7(2)/10/2010s All decade?
Joe Thomas is an immediate HOFamer even though he played for the worst Franchise since 2000. It will be interesting who else retires or isn’t signed that could go in with him. Fitzgerald and Peppers are already committed to playing another year. Gronk, Revis and Peterson may all be done however.
Paul, finishing in the top 10 in the NFL in yards 5 years, the top 5 in the NFL 3 years, the top 4 in the NFC 4 times, #1 in the NFC two years, and in the top 3 in the NFC three years isn’t “poor”, especially considering that Drew Pearson had a relatively short career, with his peak truncated by injury. While he had some great, impactful plays in the 80s he shined statistically in the 70s.
Pearson “only” led the NFL in yards one season with 870 in 1977, but these guys all only won 1 receiving title too: Cliff Branch, Harold Carmichael, Michael Irvin, Don Maynard, Tom Fears, Elroy Hirsch, and Tommy McDonald.
Most of the few with more than 1 only won 2.
These HoFers and candidates had ZERO receiving titles: Lynn Swann, Fred Biletnikoff, Tim Brown, Cris Carter, Bob Hayes, Charlie Joiner, Dante Lavelli, James Lofton, Art Monk, Andre Reed, John Stallworth, Charley Taylor, Paul Warfield, and Mel Gray.
Pearson posted two 1,000 yard seasons apart from his league leading 870 yard year, which also stacks up well against the era’s best. Cliff Branch only had two 1,000 yard seasons, one of them also being his lone receiving title. Biletnikoff only posted one 1,000 yard season. Tom Fears had two. Hayes had two. Hirsch had one. Paul Warfield only had one, and it was in the 1960s, not the 1970s, which were stat deflated from the 60s. Same with Charley Taylor. Carmichael had three 1,000 yard seasons, but one of those came in the stat inflated 80s. He only posted two in the 70s. Stallworth posted two in the 80s and only one in the 70s. Mel Gray, 4 time Pro Bowler and 1 time first team All Pro selection, never had a 1,000 yard season. Neither did HoFer Lynn Swann.
So Pearson having 3 different seasons in the 70s where he either won a receiving title or had over 1,000 yards is far from “poor”. It’s excellent.
Here’s how some great era WRs stack up in per game averages.
Yards/Game in the 1970s (excluding rookie season)
Drew Pearson – 61.2
Cliff Branch – 55.9
Lynn Swann – 54.7
Mel Gray – 51.6
John Stallworth – 50.8
Harold Carmichael – 50.4
Paul Warfield – 49.1
Charley Taylor – 48.5
Charlie Joiner – 47.5
Fred Biletnikoff – 45.3
So Pearson was selected first team All Decade for good reason. He wasn’t just riding the coattails of a great team. Pearson was a big reason that team was great.
Meant Pearson finished in the top 4 in the NFC 5 times and the top 2 three times.
Paul said: “As to Gosselin, I tend not to put too much weight on the views or voting patterns of one voter (out of 48) in regards to modern candidates,”
I’d like to agree with you but since that one voter is the “Dallas representative” I worry that the lack of push from him has hurt Cowboy candidates, especially considering the anti-Cowboys bias that still exists elsewhere among voters. It might make more difference with Dallas than having a liability as representative would for another team. I agree though that it’s far more likely to have an impact on the senior committee, where Gosselin sits and reportedly holds great influence.
“we are well aware that at least in the case of Howley there is support for his selection as a senior candidate”
Do you have hard evidence of that or are you just talking about non-voting media pundits?
I am not so sure whether the expansion of the committee to 48 members (with many additional not tied to a NFL city media) has maintained a strong NFL city “representation” role or function for member has had been the case for many decades in the past. Many of the voters have more of a national presence and broader understanding of players then simply to one city or team. I am aware of many cases in recent years where the voters presenting modern finalists were not members of their local media. Such changes to the size, diversity and representation on the committee in my view has also lessened if not eliminated the so called “anti-dallas” bias that clearly did exist for decades up until about ten years ago, elections of Bob Hayes and Rayfield Wright evidence of that case. Should Gosselin be a stronger advocate for DAL candidates? Yes, but I am not convinced that he alone-or forming an block of voters-is stopping senior candidates like Howley, Harris and Pearson from election. I believe Judge Clark among others have stated support for Howley and that it exists among the senior candidate voters and he has been in the final 10 and 5 considered in recent years. Yes Howley, Harris and Pearson are all deserving, but when you see the many other all decade team members going back as far as the 1940s and 1950s still not elected, it reflects the broader issue with the depth of the senior candidates pool and less attempts to intentionally not select Cowboys players as many other teams (KC, NYJ, Oakland, Denver) have similar complaints.
Rasputin I have stated that support Pearson’s case and that he is very deserving. I am just presenting the counter arguments that have some basis that he was not a decade long dominate player and often underperformed in the playoffs. And unfortunately including the increasingly strong dismissing of pre 1980 WRs by many voters due to the incorrect perception that their numbers are weak-hurt by the odd approach to compare them to the post 1990 passing era WRs also now appearing on the ballot. I think he greatly suffers from the common approach by voters to look for the flaws and weaknesses in a candidate as a reason for not electing him, while dismiss the contributions and achievements.
One problem with that, Paul, is that Gosselin actually fought for Hayes’ induction. I remember him publicly admitting to being under enormous pressure after the 2004 fiasco and developing a personal interest in advancing Hayes’ cause after he sadly passed away. While I agree that the eventual induction of Hayes (and before him Wright, the same year as Aikman) showed the anti-Cowboys clique had eroded some, it didn’t completely go away, and regardless there was a lot of ground that needed be made up due to the past bias.
Gosselin hasn’t been fighting for any Cowboys since then. I hope deserving Dallas players can still be inducted despite Gosselin, but it hasn’t happened yet. I guess we’ll see.
I agree that the failure to elect Hayes as a finalist was the peak of the anti-Cowboys bias among a voting block of committee members at that time and a real failure of Gosselin. And yes the previous decades of dismissing Cowboys players real hurt Hayes plus Howley Harris and Pearson-a price they are still paying. But the committee has expanded and included newer voters so challenge those Cowboys face now unfortunately like many other players and teams is the depth of the seniors committee presenting a real barrier, one not unique to just the Cowboys players. Nothing can be done now about past voting patterns as all we can hope for now is that over time Howley, Harris and Pearson get their chances. An expended special NFL 100th anniversary seniors class in 2020 as suggested by many should help
My email notification must of got turned off. I thought you guys were hibernating. lol
I’m going to sound like a broken record but I watched Dan Marino highlights on life story a couple nights ago on NFL Network and I don’t care about the numbers, the HOF needs to get one of those Mark Brothers in there. They were so good and tough at only 5’9” tall. Every bit as talented as Lynn Swann IMO. Too bad the two can’t count as one entry, seriously. lol I suppose Clayton has the best argument.
How do you tell the history of the NFL with the most prolific passer of his day not having WR’s in the HOF? That’s what they say now about how you know if you have a HOF player or not. I would sure like to ask the Committee about this unusual situation. It’s not like Marino spread the wealth that much like they do today. Marino had two guys and that was pretty much it for his best years from 84-93. They were essentially both number one WR’s which made the Offense so dangerous but also predictable. I can’t name a RB he had during their time. And there were no 3 or 4 wide outs. Can you imagine if Marino did spread it out in today’s game with that arm and quick release. LOL Danny Boy didn’t always have the best judgment in some of the big games but I’ll take his arm talent over anyone who has ever played. He was a thrill to watch as were his WR’s.
I think the problem with the Mark Brothers is that they fall into a rather large group of 1970s/early 80s WRs in which few really standout from the others, plus the wave of WRs since the 1990s benefiting from passing game focus and putting huge season and career numbers has in my view resulted in the PFHOF voters (including the seniors committee) from considering those WRs. I suspect in some of the voters minds a great QB made those WRs and they do not deserve PFHOF status on their own (not that I agree with that view). Plus the fact that they are buried deep in the seniors pool with all decade and players with multiple all pro selections from other positions also fighting for a chance to have their cases heard by the full committee, for many for the first time. Since 2000 there have been 30 senior nominees and Bob Hayes (2x) is the only WR among that group, shows how pre 1990 WRs simply do not have the respect of the voters, and I am not so sure that is going to change any time soon.
Sounds like good analysis Paul and I wouldn’t want these guys to in before some deserving 70’s WR’s like Drew Pearson and Cliff Branch. I sure hope the 80’s -early 90’s WR’s aren’t being held to the Jerry Rice standard. lol Is Art Monk the only predominately 80’s WR in the HOF? Ya sadly although I think the Mark Brother career’s were a little better than some of the other WR’s the Redskins, Oilers, Broncos, Rams Bengals etc.. had they were all pretty close in talent. Little WR’s mattered back than unlike today. The main thing Clayton and Duper have going for them is Marino lobbying for them but I agree their chances are slim. It worked for Bradshaw with John Stallworth. I couldn’t believe how quickly he got in after Bradshaw and Lynn used their platforms. Sorry but seems unfair that Bradshaw gets two WR’s in the HOF and better QB’s don’t. Maybe that goes to what your saying. WR’s made Bradshaw. LOL Love the guy’s personality but he’s a over rated IMO because his Team’s won so much. lol I don’t disagree he belongs in the HOF but it did take took him a long time to mature into a good QB. I thought Stabler and Griese were better in their prime. I know Roger Staubach was better.
As to Stallworth, 4 SBs with highlight TDS and big game numbers, Stallworth still holds the Super Bowl records for career average per catch (24.4 yards) and single-game average, 40.33 yards in Super Bowl XIV. He has 12 touchdown receptions and a string of 17 straight games with a reception in post-season play. Stallworth also scored touchdowns in eight straight playoff games at one point (1978–1983), an NFL record (from Wikipedia), gave him a very strong case-I could argue better than Swan. I am never so sure lobbying by former coaches and players, including those in the media and PFHOFers really makes that much of a difference to voters.
I don’t ever remember a player, during his induction ceremony, lobbying so hard for another player. It’s like Swann would of felt guilty if Stallworth didn’t make it. I suppose I could be remembering wrong but it did catch my attention. I think Stallworth was better than Swann too but for some reason he was somewhat unsung on a Team with so many stars. Maybe because he came on later in their run? Everyone remembers Swann for his catches in the first Super Bowl vs Dallas. His legend was cemented and than talked about for years during great team success. If Dallas won those games SB games I bet Pearson would be in the HOF. He made one on the most famous catches ever versus the Vikings. His career was ended premature due to a car accident. Get that man into the HOF. Maybe this year?
Pearson certainly has his supporters here, including me, as he is only member of 1970s decade offense team not in PFHOF. Although I would have no problem with his selection must admit it would cause disappointment to see Chuck Howley yet bypassed again and perhaps for sometime, in a life that may be close to its end
I’m all for Drew Pearson as a HoFer. His stats strike me as comparable to Harold Jackson, Harold Carmichael, and Cliff Branch — and I feel they should all be in. Pearson and Carmichael are all-decade choices, which may help their case a little bit. Here’s hoping, anyway.
Regarding the Marks Brothers, my problem with their candidacy is that they more or less split the career of a staggeringly great WR between them. Their stats are very good and quite similar, but like Gary Clark, they’re for me just a tad behind other WRs not in, such as Sterling Sharpe or Henry Ellard. Put these two Dolphin WRs together and you’ve got one major no-brainer HoFer.
I agree that Pearson, Jackson, Carmichael and Branch are all deserving and should get into the PFHOF-just that I feel that perhaps 10-15 others already in the pool from other positions and decades should be in first as they have waited longer and are equal if not more deserving. Reason why I am really hoping for an expanded seniors class in 2020 and starting wit 2021 at least two seniors each election class
Players like:
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s
OT Al Wistert 1/8/40s
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s-80s
DT – Alex Karras 4(5)/4 60s
LB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s
LB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
LB- Randy Gradishar 5/7
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s
Frank Gore just signed a 1 year deal with the Dolphins. If he plays one snap in regular season, his eligibility will be pushed back to 2024, which will bode well for him due to how deep the ballot is already ; and not too mention who will be added in the future. I just hope Edge is in by then so Gore becomes the biggest name RB on the ballot(If AP retires this year and gets in first ballot).
I agree with everything bachlunch said. lol I like your list Paul. I know bachslunch is a big supporter pf Meador but I’m not familiar with him. If he gets in I want another 2/6 Rams LB to make it, Isiah Robertson. The Rams were a team of the 70’s I know no Super Bowl win but they where always really good because of their great Defense and Ground Chuck’s running game. Robertson was a real catalyst.
I want to know when Broncos WR Rod Smith gets into the HOF? Has he gotten close? He was some WR and tough. The accolades don’t do him justice.
Sorry but only way Broncos Rod Smith gets into PFHOF any time soon is if he buys a ticket
Hey Paul do you decide who gets in the hof who made you king
Ya that comment was a discussion ender before it got started. Maybe someone else has a constructive opinion? At least I’m talking about someone for a change from this century. lol
I thought Rod Smith was really good with the eye test. Eight 1,000 yard seasons isn’t bad and he was a big time WR for a back to back SB winner. He had his best seasons with Brian Griese, lol I think he should get some serious consideration down the road. Hopefully they won’t count his domestic violence bad behavior against his chances. Not suppose too. He was a real pro on the field.
The biggest problem with Rod Smith’s HoF fitness is that there are a bunch of WR contemporaries who were just that much better than him. He played from 1995-2006 and his career overlapped significantly with Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Tim Brown, Cris Carter, Isaac Bruce, Hines Ward, Torry Holt, Derrick Mason, Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell, and Mushin Muhammad — and it’s tough to make an argument that he’s necessarily better than any of them. Then consider that the first six of these WRs are in and that Bruce, Ward, and Holt have a good shot at election, and that makes Smith pretty much a non-starter. Unless you want to go 14 deep at the position, which will be hard to justify.
Very good player for sure, but I just don’t see him as worthy.
Don’t forget about Sterling Sharpe in the 90s mix. I still think he’s the most deserving modern era skill position player not yet in.
Good point Bachs. I really only thought of Moss and Owens during Smith’s prime. I forgot about Harrison. Smith is very comparable to Issac Bruce except he didn’t play as long for the number of TD’s and catches same with Ward. Those two should make the HOF. Jimmy Smith will likely get in also. One of the most exciting players ever to watch with the big plays. I never have liked Torry Holt much although I know he piled up enough stats in the Rams wide open Offense to make the HOF. The media seemed to gush over him.
IMO Rod Smith was better than Derrick Mason, Keenan McCardell, and Mushin Muhammad. Rod Smith was so good in his prime that he made Brian Griese look great for a couple years. Than he elevated Jake “the snake” Plummer. The Broncos were always a run first Offense so he didn’t get the opportunity a few of these guys got. Smith will probably pay for not playing as long as the rest of these guys too. His only positive outside of talent is maybe people will consider he was a young star on the Broncos back to back SB wins. Maybe he makes it in 30 or 40 years. LOL
Just expressing an opinion folks-and having some innocent fun with it. Just too many other better WR and as mentioned by others he falls into large group of average WR from same era with nothing that really separates him from the crowd.
“Average”, come on man! lol
The HOF has shown in the past (Lynn Swann) they care about post season play. I believe it’s the reason Swann made it in and Rod Smith is comparable.
Just looked it up, Rod Smith has a higher Value rating than Torry Holt 126 to 123 according to Pro Football Reference. Derrick Mason 115, Keenan McCardell 113, and Mushin Muhammad 106 are all lower and should be out of the discussion but would not say were average.
Does anyone think Shannon Sharpe was a little over-rated and fortunate to play TE when he did? His AV number is 104. Jason Witten is 114 and Tony Gonzalez is 149. He only had 1 or 2 notable Playoff performances out of 18. He was a great blocker though I suppose. It looks like the next best TE’s were Jay Novacek a 53 and Ben Coates 49. Sharpe sure acts like a jerk towards Gonzalez when he’s on his show. It’s like he can’t stand the idea Tony Gonzalez is considered better. lol
Swann scores TDs in 3 SBs, two 100 games and SB MVP, if we are comparing Swann to Rod Smith based on playoff numbers Swann wins that one clearly
The definition of comparable is “similar”, not equal. My only point is that both were good in the Playoffs and this might be something they look at when evaluating Rod Smith. I’ve acknowledged he’s a long shot but wouldn’t summarily reject as you do for being only ‘average”. We have a difference of opinion. :)
Lynn Swann 16 games 48 catches 907 yds 18.9 avg 9 tds
Rod Smith 13 games 49 catches 860 yards 17.6 avg 6 tds
Sterling Sharpe was a shoe in before injury forced him to retire. I wouldn’t have a problem with him being in the HOF along the same thinking of Gale Sayers. I would think Sharpe’s 7 year career would stand up with other greats fairly well.
Ok OK OK, Rod Smith was an outstanding player – a great player – a fantastic player, where can I sign the petition to get him into the PFHOF??
And I think Sharpe has a chance but short careers are a major factor in the minds of many voters, and I know T Davis got in and voters are considering Boselli (although back to back years in final 10 and no election). And at least for the next 10+years in the modern candidate pool with all the WRs coming out with full careers and better numbers and awards, Sharpe may be waiting a long time. And lets not hold out better hope if he fails into the seniors pool as we all know how hard it is for even all decade players to get out and elected.
Rod Smith strikes me as a classic Hall of the Very Good type player. No shame in that.
And I’m as big a supporter of Sterling Sharpe for the HoF as you’ll find. Rasputin is right. But so is Paul with the observation about short careers being a stumbling block. I see Sharpe as being similar to Del Shofner, another huge peak but short career WR who unfortunately languishes in Senior purgatory. I’d love to see them both get in someday.
bachslunch, what do you think about Torry Holt? Are you surprised Rod Smith has a higher value on Pro Football Reference despite having 4 fewer PB’s, 1 less AP, less catches, less TD’s, less yards, less avg., all in more games? I was and wasn’t because I favor Smith.
At least from the number and awards criteria Terry Holt 1(1)/7/SB/All Decade has a strong PFHOF case, but since he has retired others have passed him in career receptions and yards (he now sits 21st and 16th, which I suspect is and will continue to hurt his chances for some time.
I also think along with Rod Smith and a few others, the large number of WRs with higher career numbers already still on the ballot -or appearing in coming years (I Bruce, R. Wayne, A Johnson, H Ward, S Smith, C Johnson L Fitzgerald) is really going to hurt others like Holt and R Smith with a huge log jam and need to create a “pecking order” that could last a decade of longer, and I am not sure when and if all those are considered let alone elected. By 2025 and beyond there are clearly going to be modern candidate WRs left out from election.
Jim Plunkett has his supporters for the HOF but I think another QB no one ever talks about is more deserving. I’ll give you a hint he played in two Super Bowls was a two time MVP won 62% of his games and had more TD’s than Ints which was pretty good back in the day.
For what reason(s) does Gene Washington of the 49ers never get discussed? I’m just curious. Is it because the honors fell off after his first four seasons in the league?
I remember him, there were two with that name one in Minnesota too He was Brodie’s top WR. Without looking I suppose his run of excellence may of been short lived. He was a really good one.
Gene Washington from Minnesota was good, too.
I’m not necessarily an advocate of Gene Washington from the 49ers, but with a 3/4 profile, others with similar or even worse profiles get discussed, nominated and sometimes inducted.
HOF apparently doesn’t like WR except for the rare talent prior to the 1980’s, Understandable I suppose with the League being so running dominate. Than the West Coast Offense slowly shifted balance towards passing for good. Now WR is important enough to give credit. I liked the old boring smash mouth run first, run second and run third with a spectacular bomb once in a while. That ship has sailed. Probably going to give WR’s flags soon to eliminate collisions all together. :) It will be interesting this year because you can’t even touch helmets.
Of the receivers who peaked in the late 90’s and on, I’d probably put them in this approximate order of HOF worthiness:
Moss/Owens/Harrison (in the HOF)
Holt/Bruce
Ward
—————-HOF Cut off————-
Rod and Jimmy Smith
Ochocinco and Mason
Keyshawn Johnson/McCardell/Driver
Freeman/Moulds/Horn/Troy Brown/Terry Glenn, etc.
Of the guys who peaked earlier than that who are still in the modern era pool, it would go something like:
Sharpe
Tasker
——–HOF Cutoff—–
Clark/Ellard
Rison
Herman Moore/Fryar
Anthony Miller
John Taylor/Anthony Carter/Ernest Givins
Everybody Else
I think Rod Smith is just below the cutoff for WRs. His high approximate value score on Pro Football Reference is driven by the great teams he played for and steady production. I didn’t expect it to be better than Holt’s, but Rod Smith’s teams had a 65% winning % vs. only 50.5% for Holt. He also consistently had over 1,000 yards but only had 3 seasons over 1,200. Holt on the other hand had 6 1,300 yard seasons and made an all-decade team. I don’t think there’s a good comparison between the two. I’m not necessarily saying Holt was the better player, but Holt had the better career.
I completely agree with bachslunch’s statement. He’s a classic Hall of Very Good player. Though I will admit, he’s one of the best of the “very good”…if that makes sense.
By the way, Tony P are you referring to Daryle Lamonica?
One thing I have always wanted to ask the contributors on here…how much do you think performance in non-NFL professional leagues should impact a player’s candidacy for the Pro Football Hall of Fame?
We’re starting the lose some of the best USFL players to the senior’s pool and the remainder will be in the senior’s pool shortly. There are a lot of guys who had “Hall of Very Good” NFL careers (or better) who were also great in the USFL like Nate Newton, Sam Mills, Cary Clark, Herschel Walker, Kent Hull, Keith Millard, WIlliam Fuller, Anthony Carter, Vaughan Johnson and Frank Minnifield. Perosnally, I’d put Newton and Mills into the Hall without the USFL being taken into account, but with guys like Clark, Walker, and Hull, I feel like you could seriously help build their HOF cases by considering their production in that league.
There’s also the very unique case of Doug Flutie, who was probably the best CFL player of all time (DEFINITELY the best I ever saw at the very least), had an okay season in the USFL, and spent a few years as a solid starter in the NFL (including 1 Pro Bowl year).
Anybody think any of these players gets put over the top based their performances in other professional leagues? I can’t recall an inducted player who got over the top based on this, but I think guys like Jim Kelly and Warren Moon may have gotten in on the first-ballot based on their combined careers with the NFL and the USFL and CFL respectively.
Unlike the AAFL and AFL that merged with the NFL, and brought teams and records with them, that was not the case for the WFL or USFL (yet in the actual PFHOF their histories are presented). Not sure whether it is a sense that the WFL and USFL were lesser quality or the hatred and competition the NFL had with the WFL and USFL (for signing players and driving up salaries etc…), but to my understanding the performance of players from those two leagues that ended up in the NFL was never really a factor in their election to the PFHOF. In the NFL, Moon 1/9/MVP/OPOY (retired 3rd in NFL career passing, 4th in NFL career TDs) was certainly deserving of election, including first ballot, without any consideration of his CFL time. Kelly 1/5/4B appearances, also put up some impressive season and playoff passing numbers, and I think benefited more from the Bills as press favorites and their infamous (and history setting) 4 straight SB appearances. Again I do not recall any discussion of his USFL numbers as a factor in his election. And lets remember PFHOF voters love high profile successful QBs, which gives them that advantage over many other positions.
I am not too sure about the PFHOF chances of those USFL players listed, and again really not so sure their USFL successes or numbers will make their cases stronger with the voters. Flutie is in the CFL HOF, but nothing he did in the USFL or NFL would ever be enough to get him in the PFHOF as at best he could be considered a “very good” pro QB with a few seasons, but no major season, playoff or career achievements in the PFHOF.
Sam Mills 1(2)/5 is an interesting case who could someday see consideration out of the seniors pool. I am not sure whether the same support exists for Nate Newton 2(6) but his profile does at merit some discussion. Plus they would be up against many more deserving NFL career players. For me Herschel Walker (2)/2 is perhaps the most intriguing case, only because of the historical aspects of his career-first big signing of the USFL (and puts up huge numbers including a record setting 2,400 yd rushing season), joins the Cowboys in dual backfield threat with Tony Dorsett, and then that history making trade with MINN that helps DAL build the core of their 3xSB team-but his NFL seasons and career numbers, even when adding receiving and KR are average at best. But could you tell the history of the NFL in the 1980s with no mention of him? He could be an interesting case some year down the road if the number of seniors selection committee members remains remains small and a voter with a strong sense of pro football history were to pick up his case.
Since it is the Pro Football HOF it does raise an interesting question I have thought about over the years-what is the role and impact of players who spent time in other leagues than the NFL. For what ever reason the voters have never really addressed that question (at least not publicly) and seems like unless there is major changes in that view-unlikely as time will only further bury those leagues-their impact and significance will not be factor in voting.
Daryle Lamonica makes for a very interesting case as senior candidate (although personally in terms of QBs I would place Ken Anderson 1st). His profile of 2(1)AFL, 2 NFL Pro Bowls, 2xAFL MVP, 3xAFL champion, 2X SB appearances makes Lamonica a very worth consideration for the PFHOF.
I think Gene Washington of the 49ers is hurt by having only a four year peak in a short 9 year career. His 3(1)/4 profile draw attention, but the lack of sustained success in terms of multiple years near the top in receiving numbers, no major season awards, no major playoff successes, and limited by the short career-hence not great career numbers – really hurts his case. He strikes me as a guy who if he had played a little longer and seen the 49ers have better seasons, his chances would have improved greatly, Instead his seen as just another very good player buried in a seniors pool with many more qualified and deserving candidates.
BLSO your list looks accurate to me. And I won’t hold it against you that you left Clayton and Duper off your cutoff list. LOL!! As far as raw talent I’d put Jimmy Smith in the HOF near the top of your list. You’re right his career probably doesn’t quite add up to a HOFer. Unfortunately his career was checkered with drug use. I’m not sure if it affected him from reaching his full potential. His story is pretty remarkable because of his rocky start. I think he has a better chance than Rod Smith and wouldn’t rule out getting in years down the road.
Jacksonville has some intriguing players on the borderline with Jimmy Smith, Fred Taylor and Tony Boselli.
Considering other League success is an interesting topic. Warren Moon is one player that I would of put into the HOF even if he had a much lesser NFL career. So that should make the idea acceptable. I think Herschel Walker didn’t have a NFL HOF career but he clearly was a HOF caliber player with the USFL. Once he wasn’t handcuff by Dorsett his 1,500 yards in his 6th pro year was crazy good for a 3-13 Dallas Team. While his rush game did tail off with the out of this world expectations in Minnesota (I was living there) he remained a good overall threat for the rest of his career. In his NFL career, “Walker gained 8,225 rushing yards, 4,859 receiving yards, and 5,084 kickoff-return yards. for 18,168 total combined net yards, ranking him second among the NFL’s all-time leaders in total yardage as of his retirement.” He is worthy of a thorough examination for candidacy. Unfortunately I think he falls short.
The mystery player is QB Earl Morrall. Not saying he should be in the HOF but I was really surprised his career stats were so impressive. He never got the acclaim he should of for the Dolphins’ undefeated season although he was the AFC MVP. He had a history for blowing the big game in SB 3 after leading the Colts to 15-1. I think he could of led the Dolphins to a win over the Redskins but they might not of gotten past the Steelers without Griese. They barely got by the Browns.
Thanks for the responses guys. Good discussion! I agree that Herschel Walker is really the only guy whose USFL career was so good that it would potentially impact his HOF case. The RB senior’s pool is pretty thin, so I wouldn’t say that a nomination would be out of the question once he ends up there. Like Roger Craig, I think his chances actually are better in the senior pool than the regular vote.
I’ve always wondered why the Pro Football Hall of Fame never considered having some sort of “non-NFL” wing. A lot of the competing professional leagues have been short lived, but the CFL at a minimum has a lot of history behind it, and . If they ever made the decision to come up with an additional voting category, that would absolutely be my choice.
Tony P, I only didn’t include Clayton and Duper because they are now in the senior pool. Clayton for me would be between Ellard and Rison, while Duper would likely be in the same group as Moore and Fryar. I can’t really see a case for Duper, though he was better than his 3 Pro Bowls would suggest. His year to year production was quite the roller coaster though. A little bit too inconsistent to be considered for the HOF in my opinion.
Clayton on the other hand may have a case. His 5 Pro Bowls are at least a conversation starter and his 84 receiving TDs are impressive for any time period. Unfortunately, there are a dozen or 2 WRs like that in the senior pool so he would really need a heavy advocate to ever get a nomination.
Thanks for your thought on the Mark Brothers. I’m thinking Clayton could get in sometime way down the road. I’m still hoping for the first two for one HOF entry. LOL The Dolphins had a great line of WR in their history starting with HOFer Paul Warfield, Freddie Solomn, Nat Moore thru Clayton, Duper and Fryer. RB is another story. Hard to believe Larry Csonka still holds the Dolphin rushing record with 6,737 yds. IMO in he doesn’t finish off his career in style with the Dolphins in ’79 he doesn’t make the NFL. Funny story, he was going to come back the next year and Coach Shula wouldn’t give him like a $20,000 raise to $240,000 so Zonk said screw it and retired to go fishing. LOL
Of course I meant ‘Csonka doesn’t make HOF. lol
Clearly I didn’t remember Shannon Sharpe very well. He was like a WR and not much of a blocker. I know he was important to the Team but I remember John Elway, Terrell Davis and Rod Smith more. I especially remember Sharpe when he went to the Ravens and won their SB.
For some reason Steve Atwater is being denied the HOF. I thought a FS was in position to get more Ints. than 24. But he had a heck of a lot of tackles. That’s what I remember him for. A 2/8 with 2 SBs and a reputation as one of the best should of landed him in the HOF by now. I suppose it’s Safety disrespect.
It sounds like I’m stuck on the Smith’s lol there’s another one I’m high on for HOF named Neil Smith 1/6. I was so happy for him when he won the SB with Denver in ’97. People forget the improvement on D that the Broncos made. He was a big part of that Defense and winning the SB. GB had a really good RB Dorsey Levens who they held in relative check. It was a lot Terrell Davis but not all. :) Keeping that GB Team, a 11 point fav to 24 pts was a great feat. All that running TD did keep the ball out of GB hands. It was a great game plan much like the Giants vs Bills SB. Rod Smith had 0 catches and Sharpe had only 38 yds. Rod Smith got his in the next SB as Elway aired it out.
Correction the Denver Defensive improvement was made in 1996 the year they shockingly lost in the Playoffs to Jacksonville in Denver. The improvement came with the addition of Bill Romanowski, Alfred Williams and John Mobley. i guess no one would think Romo is a HOFer. Damn good player on both 49ers and Broncos and a real winner. The type of nasty gutsy player that makes a Defense better. I wish there was a HOF for difference makers like him. If there was Miami’s SB MVP Jake Scott 2/4 would be in there.
Has there ever been a HOFer who played for more consistently bad teams than potential HOFer Joe Thomas? The Browns were 10-6 in his 1st season with no playoffs, 7-9 than 5 wins or less in every year. Only one I can think of is Floyd Little. Sorry Mr. Little 1/5 but it’s a cryin’ shame you are in the HOF before some of the ones that are on the still on the doorstep. Only one !,000 yd season 43 TDs and 3.9 career avg. His stats just don’t add up. I wonder what someone like Corey Dillon thinks playing for a crappy Cinncy rushing for over 8,000 yds. with them than having a career year at age 30 and SB victory with New England? I think he’s a HOFer but I remember he didn’t have much support here. That was about 10 years ago.
I am also a supporter of Rod Smith but I don’t see him or Steve Atwater getting in unless the Senior Pool put them in many years down the road. Some names mentioned above that do not get enoght love include: Sam Mills, Jake Scott, Kent Hull and Sterling Sharpe. To me they were all great players at their respective positions and contributed greatly to championship caliber teams. The HOF hopefully will include those players some day. Remember if Sharpe doesn’t get hurt, he is a factor for Bret Favre in both of the Super Bowls he played in.
PS I thought Shannon was one of the more overrated players to get into the HOF. He was a terrible blocker for TE and had a lot of drops.
I do think Atwater has been hurt by the well documented and often discussed disregard by PFHOF voters for the position which has a long history going back decades. And also having Lynch and then Dawkins appear on the ballot. There remains a chance Atwater is elected, but with Reed and then Tony P soon to be on ballot, plus Lynch, it may be very difficult for Atwater to get in on modern ballot before his eligibility expires. Then who know what happens once he falls into the deep seniors pool. Recent elections have shown voters not playing much attention to previous finalists or time remaining on the ballot if 1st year candidates are deserving voters seem to be having no problems selecting them over other deserving candidates who have been finalists longer-another trend that is not in Atwater’s favor.
I’d love to be on the ballot . LOL I thought I was the only one to do that. lol Just messing with you Paul. Not aware of Atwater comments did he get upset with them omitting him?
I always thought Derrick Brooks was the best player on Tampa Bay’s Defense but Lynch’s the tone setter with his big hits. That was a great Defense at every level.
opps meaning Troy P or Troy Polamalu, and was not referring to comments by Lynch but by posters here and in media (including among some PFHOF voters) regarding issue with lack of Safeties in PFHOF and need to address
Can I say Sharpe made it fashionable to be a WR like player to play the TE position? At 6′ 2″ and 228 lbs he sure racked up the accolades along with the catches from the TE position. I’m pretty sure Sharpe doesn’t make the HOF if he’s a WR. I’m thinking the first really success non prototype TE was Todd Christenson. I believe he was a converted RB.
Brent Jones 0/4 was another pretty good WR type TE.
I guess I’m missing the mark on TE talk because most of great ones are in the 230 lbs. range. Some play bigger and are good blockers like Mike Ditka and some are just bigger and limited receivers..
The TE most often cited as being the first real WR in sheep’s clothing was Kellen Winslow. One might perhaps make a case for Jerry Smith as well, but it’s Winslow who usually gets the credit.
I can see Jerry Smith that way, that’s a great example. He was a really small TE at 208 lbs. Maybe Ozzie Newsome should get some credit? Winslow was a big TE so I didn’t think of him that way.
Antonio Gates would be the heaviest HOF TE at 6’4″ 260 lbs, Witten is close 6’5″ at 257 and of course if Gronk makes it he would be the biggest ever at 6’6″ 265. Kellen Winslow and Tony Gonzales are the same at 6’5″ 250 lbs.
And Gates is still out there as a unsigned FA, are his playing days done and PFHOF clock starting?? Along with Darrelle Revis ? Adrian Peterson? Dwight Freeney?
I don’t think Dwight Freeney is an automatic for HOF. I saw him a lot versus Houston. Seems like he got most of his sacks versus David Carr and Matt Schuab. lol A really good pass rusher with that patented spin move but not much of a tackler. Despite his 3/7 he’s no where near Jared Allen as a player. I guess Demarcus Ware is first in and Allen 2nd and ???
Maybe 2018 will be Julius Peppers last year? Any other DE on the verge of retirement and an imminent HOFer?
With a profile of 3(1)/7/SB/2000s, appears to me that Freeney will be getting into the PFHOF, perhaps not first ballot but not going to have a long wait.
Yea Pepper signed one yr deal with CAR for 2018, so very likely his last year.
As to PFHOF candidates at DE there are Allen (2021), Ware (2022), Freeney, and Peppers. Allen will have tough time to be 1st time HOFer with Manning, Woodson and C Johnson on that same ballot, but at 4(5), 11th career sacks Allen is getting in but could see a wait-as the very next year Ware appears on the ballot with a 4(3)/9/SB/2000s/8th and will be 1st ballot selection.
I’m more impressed with Leslie O’Neal’s career stats than Freeney’s. I wonder if he ever makes it? What about John Abraham? Both those guys have better much higher AV than Freeney. Not trying to get hung up on that (AV) but it is a tool. I never thought Abraham was a HOFer. O’neal on the other hand I thought great player. 0/6 is surprising to me. He made Pro Bowl at 2 positions and was a 275 lbs Linebacker. He was very agile for his size.
It was good to see O’Neal named as a 2018 semi finalist after being inexplicably left off the preliminary list until recently. His 132.5 sacks are tied with LT for 13th all-time. Simeon Rice also broke through as a semi finalist this year and both Rice and O’Neal are the only two pass rushers in the Top 20 sacks list who are currently eligible for Canton but not elected.
John Abraham joins the ballot in 2020, followed by Jared Allen (2021), Robert Mathis (2022) and Demarcus Ware (2022). Freeney would be 2023 if nobody signs him while Julius Peppers is looking to at least 2024 with him returning next season.
It’s going to get crowded at DE, though Peppers, Ware and Allen should be easy choices. After that it’s a bit of a logjam.
I think O’Neil has a good chance for election but yes it will soon again get very crowded at the pass rushing DE/LB positions with Ware, Allen, Freeney, then Peppers getting in first-in some order, before others get their chances to have them discussed in the room as finalists, including Rice, O’Neal, and Abraham. AV is a good stat for comparison but I am so sure it is one used or recognized by many voters (I may be mistaken, but have not read any extensive discussions about its use), but recent years clearly have shown voters are less concerned about electing those who have been on the ballot already over 1st year candidates with strong profiles including multiple all pro, top career stats, all decade team and SBs.
You guys are good. I can’t remember dates at all. What do you have an Excel speadsheet to remember these eligibility dates? LOL
Thinking about AP and 2,000 yard seasons, does Jamal Lewis make the HOF and when? Also pure opinion but who do we think had the most impressive 2,000 yard season? lol I know that’s a tough one!!! Give it your best shot, just one. :)
Sanders and AP had the best avg carry at 6.1 and 6.0 respectively. In AP’s he was coming off an ACL injury. No one is close to Davis’ s 21 TD’s. Than you have to consider age, quality of Team and era played in. Is it getting easier to do?
1 Eric Dickerson+ (24) 2,105 1984 RAM
2 Adrian Peterson (27) 2,097 2012 MIN
3 Jamal Lewis (24) 2,066 2003 BAL
4 Barry Sanders+ (29) 2,053 1997 DET
5 Terrell Davis+ (25) 2,008 1998 DEN
6 Chris Johnson (23) 2,006 2009 TEN
7 O.J. Simpson+ (26) 2,003 1973 BUF
Oh ya, one player did it in 14 games! LOL
Oh, beggin’ my pardon, OJ’s avg carry was 6.0 also. Did that just make picking a whole lot easier?
Thinking about OJ Simpson, I know do we have too! lol, I remember 1975 more than the 2,000 yd season. I believe it was his best season and one of the greatest ever. I still remember his Thanksgiving game versus Detroit as incredible. And according to AV it is close to the best ever for a RB at 25. Only LT edges him with a 26 with his ridiculous 28+3 = 31 TD’s in 2006. Barry Sanders best was a 20 and Jim Brown had 4 seasons better than that with a 23 best. Emmitt Smith had 3 seasons at 20. He also is the oldest RB I’ve come across with a 1,000 yd season at 35. But it looks to me like Walter Payton was the best RB after age 29. Paytin’s career had an amazing encore that I don’t know has ever happened for a RB. For my money he was the hardest runner I ever saw although Earl Campbell is a close second than Larry Brown, Larry Csonka, and a slew of other greats. Maybe it’s in the name. lol Never saw Jim Brown but I’m sure he’s near the top.
Twenty AV seems to be the pure gold standard with many great seasons falling short including surprisingly Shaun Alexander’s 1880 yd 27 rush TD season at AV 17. My guy Corey Dillon comes up very small with AV as Shady McCoy has already surpassed him career wise. He might have to take a seat on any HOF talk although I still stand by the eye test for him.
A good stat to remember when looking at RB’s is the old standard of 1,000 yards is equal to approx. 71.43 yards a game or 1,143 yards for a 16 game season. I hope they don’t change to 18 games. lol So technically when I said Emmitt Smith reached 1,000 yards at 35 he wouldn’t of qualified under old standard. I think it matters.
Please look at Jim’s Brown’s career at Pro Football Reference.com. Can anyone explain how the AV comparison makes sense?
Ironically NFL Network is airing top ten rushing seasons. Earl Campbell’s 1,934 yards is 10 but many think top 4 and even number 1 considering his OL. I would say top 5 for sure because of how hard those yards were to get. Their list is flawed already. lol
Jamal Lewis’s 2,000 yd season didn’t make list.
9. Chris Johnson
8. LT 31 TD’s
7. Walter Payton 1977 – got to be higher
6. Jim Brown 1963, 6.4 yds a carry
5. Terrell Davis – very great but gotta be lower considering QB and OL
4. Barry Sanders – gotta be higher. In a Dome. All time negative rush leader. lol
3. Eric Dickerson Southern California 14 fumbles
2. Adrian Peterson 2012, a Dome
1. OJ Simpson 2003 yds, played in Buffalo
I’d put Peterson 1, Simpson 2, Sanders 3. Payton 4, Campbell 5, Dickerson 6, Brown 7, Davis 8. LT 9. The top 4 are unbelievable Not sure about 10. Only reason I put Brown down a spot is I think as an athlete he was a little ahead of the competition with his evolution for size and speed. LT would be higher if considering elusiveness. He had a Pro Bowl QB in Rivers. I’m sure that helped each other.
R.I.P. Grady Alderman, another good player in the Senior pool who has left us.
As to Jamal, one great season in a nine year career doesn’t get one in the PFHOF
Hard to believe I’ve never heard of him. Wow 1/6 and LT for all those years in Minnesota. Looks like a really good one who should of gotten more acclaim. Higher AV than Jerry Kramer 107 to 90.
It took forever for Tingelhoff to get his due. So, sadly, Alderman being forgotten about is hardly a shock.
I agree one great season but what do we call 1,300 yd seasons? I remember anything over 1,000 yds in the 70’s was real accomplishment and if you had enough of them you would usually be a HOFer. Larry Csonka and Leroy Kelly each only had three of them. Floyd Little had one. lol I suppose it’s all relative to what the competition is doing but Lewis has three 1.300 yd seasons plus a 2,000 and Dilfer as a QB. I don’t think he’s a HOFer but it begs the question how much more would he have to do?
I’m thinking Alderman didn’t get more notoriety because Minnesota didn’t have a 1,000 yd rusher until 1975 with Chuck Foreman, they didn’t win a SB and the Defense was stellar. Maybe of I would of watched SB 4 than I might remember him. I was only six! lol The Vikes had really good RB’s not great. I remember Tinglehoff from the multiple SB teams in the 70’s and the Superstars Team competitions.
I guess I broke the rule again by discussing players already in the HOF. lol
Tony who cares if dickerson fumbled the ball 14 times
The people who evaluated his performance.
Fumbling the ball won’t keep a great runner out of the HOF but when you’re boiling down performances to one year for comparison every stat matters.
https://forwardmile.com/nfl/prediction-hall-of-fame-2019-nfl/
I guess they don’t what Pat Bowlen looks like.
I don’t think Champ Bailey should get in before Ronde Barber. If anything put them in together. Barber is underrated playing in Tampa Bay. I’ve always liked him a lot. Has the same really high AV of 150 as Bailey. 8 td’s is really impressive. It would be neat if Tampa teammates went in together. I wonder if that has ever happened?
They also screwed up their 2019 predictions as there are only one senior slot and two for contributors
With only 5 modern slots. attempting to put two CBs in at same time above other more deserving players on the 2019 and other ballots is simply not far. If voters were to consider two players at the same position, in the next few years that would more likely be OT/OL. And in recent years it has become very clear these PFHOF voters are less interested in time on ballot over qualifications of 1st time candidates. In fact one could argue, and appears the voters agree, that Law 2/5/3xSB/2nd team all decade is more deserving than Barber 3(2)/5/SB/2nd team all decade.
Regardless pretty clear that likely both will have to wait until Bailey 5(2)/12/1st team all decade and Woodson 4(4)/9/SB/1st team all decade. Barber and Law are getting in but may take a several more elections. I really do not get to hung up on 1st ballot elections or order of players from same position with similar profile and the order they are elected because there are limited slots and many factors that impact when one is elected, as at end of the day it is getting in that counts not when.
And yes teammates have gone in together before, for example Montana and Lott.
Thanks for the input. I agree it’s not as important exactly when a player like Barber gets in. I just hope it’s not much longer. If Tampa Bay gets 4 players into the HOF in the next couple years would that be the most from one Defensive team? I’m thinking it is. I think the Bears and Steelers had 3 each. Maybe Green Bay had 4? Oh wait Kansas City will have 5 when Johnny Robinson gets in.
70s Steelers have four: Blount, Greene, Ham and Lambert with a possible 5th someday in Greenwood
I didn’t know Jack Ham was in the HOF so I overlooked him. Now I have to look at the year to see why. lol
1988 OK that explains it. LOL
Are any of today’s big 3 WR’s Julio Jones, Antonio Brown and AJ Green a lock for the HOF? At 28 is Julio Jones is a 2/5 and with a 300yd game. Antonio Brown is a 4/6 and Green has been a PBer his first 7 years of his career.
OK I’ll answer my question. lol Pretty obvious that Brown is a lock. Jones is close and more TD’s would help his cause. Green is a maybe. All three are extremely skilled. I’d like to see Green with a better QB.
This kind of begs the question, is 2/6 Chad Johnson a HOFer?
I suspect Julio and Antonio will be the 1st team WRs on the 2010s all decade team so I would say their chances are looking pretty good for the PFHOF (since there careers are not over and likely play more years I would haste to call them “locks”), also Green is building a strong PFHOF case.
I don’t think Chad J has much of a chance as his career numbers fall short of the large number of WRs from his era that will be getting into the PFHOF and those are have (and will) follow him in the increasingly pass orientated game of today. Of course it would be easy to say he would have a chance someday as a senior candidate, but when that pool contains all decade team members who have been waiting for a chance for 20+ years, hard to say his future will be any better.
What do we think of James Harrison’s chances? He has a very interesting and unique career profile: 2(2)/5/2xSB/DPOY. At first glace seems little marginal to me, but could be interesting if he ever advances to the final 215-which may take a several years on the ballot.
Johnson has more yards and TD’s than those players but I agree with you the HOF is way down the road if at all. He doesn’t quite make the eye test for me although he was very good. And I wonder if his antics, although harmless, might hurt him with some? In the same way people maybe don’t remember Joe Horn for his talent. Not saying Horn deserves HOF. lol I don’t know there have been so many good WR’s the last 30 years. Does it seem like announcers don’t talk about past players very much? They are so much more analytical in their broadcasts than say in Curt Gowdy’s day. They say that’s what the people want. I prefer a little more color in commentary. Haven’t had that since Madden left the booth.
I would think Harrison has a good chance because he played for a team that was always relevant. I don’t see him as being too far off from 1/7, 2 -time DPOY Terrell Suggs and Harrison does have one of the most famous SB play. :)
Not sure what other WRs you are referring to but Chad is 35th career receptions, 34th in yards, and and 50th in TDs, those numbers will really hurt his chances-not the antics. Regarding WRs whose careers significantly overlap with his, Chad is behind PFHOF strong contenders (and likely elected) Bruce, Holt, Wayne, A. Johnson, Ward, Calvin J, plus others that may get consideration in S Smith, Boldin, B. Marshall, D Mason, W. Walker – that’s 11 other WRs. No way Chad gets in before or even with all of those. The post 2000 passing era is going to see more and more 800+ career receptions (and even 900+), 11,000+ career Yrds, 80+ career TDs from WRs not getting into the PFHOF-there are just many of them posting those kinds of numbers.
I was just trying to say there are more good WR’s in this passing age like a Joe Horn or a little lesser who are easily forgettable if announcers don’t remind us of them. They are too busy dissecting every play now and showing a dozen replays. They probably figure with just a few clicks we can educate/remind ourselves and they’d be right. lol I just like to romance about the old days. :)
I know it’s not important but I’d like to see Andre Johnson go in on the 1st ballot. On of the best I’ve ever seen and all the more impressive considering the QB’s. Not Tim Brown impressive but still. First impression no on the second group of WR’s except Steve Smith. You forgot Rod Smith again. Hahaha
What about Wes Welker? Is that who you meant? He in for me. I was thinking you meant Wesley Walker.
Yes I was referring to Wes Welker, and I am not so sure he is a clear cut PFHOF-again caught up in the 10-15 WRs from same era with similar career numbers. I think once we get past Julio, Antonio, A Johnson, C Johnson, L Fitzgerald (plus WRs already on the ballot), not really sure we will see many more WRs from 2000s elected.
IMO Welker is a lock because he was so excellent at his one job, being an extension to the New England running game. He never makes it if he doesn’t land in the PERFECT situation.
Welker may get a chance but for me hard to call anyone a “lock” without the numbers to back it up (career, season, awards etc…). And I think it is going to be real hard for PFHOF voters to get past the lack of numbers. Especially with the other 10+ WRs from his era all above him in career numbers.
I used too strong a word. I strongly favor him but you’re right the voters may not. I was basing my comment too much on an eye test but being more objective I’d suppose his chances are only slightly over 50%.
I think it would be great (but often difficult and perhaps too subjective at times) to have a stronger consideration for the “eye test” – which I often refer to “could you write the definitive history of the NFL in the era without discussing _____________’. In the minds and thoughts of the voters I suspect it does come into play at times, for example when candidates are very close in terms of the “numbers” or for positions like OL that do not lend themselves often very well to a numbers focus.
And that approach would certainly have value, and could be helpful and more useful, but perhaps only if the number of slots each year as more than 5. I guess at some point there will always be a distinction or level that will exist to separate the PFHOF from the “very good”
Add Freeney to class of 2023 as he is retiring
Does anyone question if Miami Center 4/5 Dwight Stephenson deserves to be in the HOF? As a Miami fan I was surprised when he was elected. Great player but short career. Must of been the eye test?
I think Nat Moore was under valued. Great career for the time he played in but only 1/1.
Will a kick returning specialist like Billy “White Shoes” Johnson, Ricky Upchurch, Eric Metcalf, Devin Hester ever get into the HOF? Can you talk about the 1970’s without Johnson? Upchurch was even better. Clearly there were fewer great returns in the 1960’s, 70’s and 80’s compared to from 1990 to today. especially punt returns. I wonder what happened? I wonder if Steve Tasker or Bill Bates ever get strong consideration? Maybe it’s too hard to evaluate all the great special teams players in history. I doubt they were paid attention to like more recently.
If you had to pick a Team of Offensive skill position players who would you pick? I’d have to pick Jerry Rice as one WR for the underneath catches. My FB would be Jim Brown and RB Marshall Faulk (best combo back ever). Second WR Randy Moss is my deep threat. Third WR and another 1st ballot HOFer would be another deep threat and the best route runner in his time Paul Warfield. That’s a scary threesome! lol My TE would be Gronk who’s a road grader who can run like a deer. Lastly I’d need a QB who could make all of the throws and also be elusive and clutch. Actually how elusive does he need to be with these weapons? lol No I don’t want Tom Brady. I’ll take the highest rated QB of all-time Aaron Rodgers. If you can pick a more talented team let the debate begin. lol
With only five modern slots, unless that number changes I doubt we will ever see a KR/PR or ST player make the PFHOF. Lets remember there are only two kickers and one punter (via seniors pool) in the PFHOF so clearly voters are not supportive of what they see as “part time” players.
A whole lot of support for Tasker like there was for Ray Guy. Not sure it’s fair to many other great STers. There’s the whole thing, it’s 1/3 of the game. Yes, one play at a time. lol If they consider another P seriously, I’d pick Shane Lechler.
Paul, since no comment on the other stuff I’ll assume you agree. :)
Not sure about the whole lot of supper for Tasker-as he ever made the 25 semi-finalist list? And support for Ray Guy never got him elected via the modern route, took the 5 member seniors selection committee to get him on the ballot as a finalist. And special teams are not 1/3 of the game, if you count plays/snaps it comes out much lower. Kickers can some more cred as they score points, or make critical gaming winning FGs, a few punters can really impact field position (interestingly from Guy’s era and earlier he was not even the best at that). PFHOF has over 50 elected classes and over 300 players, and only 3 K/Ps over 50+ years. I am not so sure there will be a rush to elect many more over the coming decades of elections. Time and time again voters have largely and consistently favored full time offensive and defensive player for those only 5 slots a year-I doubt that will change, especially as rule changes reduce the impact of ST and KR/PR. An only the top few career points Ks and all decade punters are ever going to even be in the discussion. Right or wrong that is where the voting lies.
I guess because Steve Tasker was announcing Texan games every week I heard more commentary about him being deserving of the HOF. I don’t really have an opinion if he should or shouldn’t.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/410954-the-legend-of-special-teams-icon-steve-tasker
First Dwight Stephenson in his short career was one of the best Centers I have ever seen. He was incredibly quick but still strong. Nose tackles one on one with Stephenson had no chance. If the Dolphins had run more often he would have been even more well known.
Hester will get in the HOF one day but I don’t believe any of the other SPEC Teamers mentioned are getting in any time soon.
This would be my all time first team.
QB- Tom Brady
RB- Jim Brown
RB- Walter Payton
RB- Barry Sanders
FB- Marion Motley
WR- Jerry Rice
WR- Randy Moss
WR- Terrell Owens
TE- Rob Gronkowski
C- Jim Otto
G- John Hannah
G- Jim Parker
T- Anthony Monoz
T- Forrest Gregg
K- Adam Vinatierri
P- Ray Guy
DE- Reggie White
DE- Deacon Jones (Barely over Bruce Smith)
DT- Melin Olsen
DT- Joe Greene
OLB- Lawrence Taylor
OLB-Jack Ham
ILB- Dick Butkus
ILB- Jack Lambert
CB- Deion Sanders
CB- Mike Haynes
S- Ronnie Lott
S- Emlen Tunnell
Oh man, I love it! lol I don’t agree with all but I can see an argument for all. I’ll have to digest a little longer. lol :)
T.O.’s not a 1st ballot HOFer. I’d rather have Steve Largent or Paul Warfield on my team. :) Jim Brown was a FB so I’d replace Motley with OJ Simpson. For G I’d go with Larry Allen over Parker and for T Bruce Matthews over the great Forrest Gregg. Matthews might be the best OL of all time. Maybe Gregg should stay over Munoz who was know as one of the greatest pass blockers ever?
For CB it’s real hard to not pick one of the great Steelers Mel Blount or Rod Woodson. Woodson would be my pick with an AV rating that blows even Deon out of the water. I love Deacon but I’d go Bruce Smith and it’s not close for me. I like Randy White too but couldn’t oust Merlin Olsen. I’m not sure about Jack Hamm? There aren’t so many great OLB’s compared to ILB. Hard to leave Ray Lewis off the list. including Kansas City’s Derrick Thomas and Bobby Bell and Philly’s Chuck Gednarik. I guess Hamm gets it for his intellect.
Bottom line is you can’t go wrong with any of these HOFers on your Team. Just splitting hairs. :)
Chuck Bednarik!!
I’d go with Bob Lilly over Merlin Olsen or Joe Greene.
I was surprised to see that Ray Nitschke was only a 1/2. So maybe there’s hope for others?
Guess you’d have to win 5 SB’s. lol
Ray Nitschke was actually 2(5)/1, 5x NFL champ (2X SBs), plus 1960s all decade team-he was later also on NFL 75th anniversary team. Odd that he was 2x first team and 5x 2nd team All Pro, but during the same period only selected once to ProBowl-weird. So not too sure whether he sets standard for 1/2 players making the PFHOF, although you are right that winning 5 NFL/SB Championships would help (likely helped Charles Haley)-but not many players in entire history of NFL can make that same claim. Brady certainly would not need the 5 SBs alone to be elected, even if he lost all of them, his many all pro/pro bowl seasons or just 3X MVP would have got him elected.
Generally Olsen slightly edges Bob Lilly, and Alan Page tops both of these guys as a pass rusher. Page was a great all-around DT but I think he loses a lot of support from the general public as being the BEST because of the way his front line performed in 4 bad Super Bowl loses, Miami’s OL and Larry Csonka crushed Page right up the middle all day long. :)
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1127942-the-top-10-defensive-tackles-in-nfl-history
That’s strange about Nitschke not gettng PB credit. Thanks for dropping the knowledge Paul.
I have no idea who Adam Lazarus is but I have to disagree with much of his list.
Bob Lilly had more first team AP All Pro selections than Olsen and Greene, was on 2 All Decade Teams, and was first team All Decade 70s while Olsen was 2nd team. They didn’t distinguish between 1st and 2nd team on the 60s team, but both Lilly and Olsen were on the HoF’s “Combined” NFL/AFL 1960s All Decade team.
Lilly had the best combination of quickness, strength, agility, motor, and technique I’ve ever seen in a D-lineman, and no NFL player was tougher. He was lights out against both the run and the pass. Merlin Olsen played alongside Deacon Jones most of his career, making things a little easier for him. By contrast Lilly was undeniably the foundation of the original Doomsday defense. He was routinely triple teamed and still collapsed the offensive line play after play. He was unblockable.
Page may have gotten trucked by Csonka, but Lilly didn’t! The Cowboys shut down a great Miami team that would go undefeated the following year cold in Super Bowl 6. Lilly was the most important guy in Dallas becoming the only team in NFL history to hold its SB opponent without a TD. His iconic, record setting 29 yard sack of Bob Griese became the indelible image of that game. Guys could sometimes run a little on the Steel Curtain but they couldn’t run against Doomsday. Pittsburgh ranked #1 in rushing defense only once, and in the top 4 only twice in Greene’s career. But the Lilly-led Doomsday defense ranked #1 against the rush five years, including four years in a row at one point, ranked either 1st or 2nd nine years, and ranked in the top 4 eleven years.
Lilly also scored 4 TDs while Olsen scored one and Greene never scored any. That may not seem like a big deal but it does further illustrate Lilly’s athleticism. That he made a Pro Bowl having to play defensive end on a recent expansion team early in his career showcases his versatility.
More than one respected NFL figure, including (but not limited to) Tom Landry, has called Lilly the greatest player they have ever SEEN. In 1999 the Sporting News Ranked Lilly as the greatest defensive lineman of all time.
I give the edge to Bob Lilly.
I don’t have a dog in the fight I’m just going by several publications. It’s probably not fair to compare such great legends. Lilly did have some pretty good players in Larry Cole and Jethro Pugh both underrated.
You may not like the results of the following story but it does reveal some very interesting sack information I’ve never seen before. I never would of thought Mean Joe was so far down the sack list with only 66. Still he was such a great run stuffer.
https://www.dailynorseman.com/2015/10/16/9558877/nfls-a-football-life-recalls-career-of-the-best-defensive-tackle-alan-page
I wonder how Jethro Pugh feels playing next to Lilly for all those years having as many sacks and not making one PB? Maybe he got some of those sacks because Lilly was double teamed I don’t know? Still it makes you wonder. He’s not the only one I look at Steve McMichael and HOFer Dan Hampton. McMichael was IMO the best Texas Longhorn DL ever and a beast among many on those great Chicago Bears Teams. He is a HOF caliber player in my book.
Diron Talbert was a hell of a player on those Redskin, “Over the hill gang” Teams and obviously didn’t get enough credit making only one PB. And I knew the Giants’ George Martin was one heck of a player who was overlooked. More sacks than Lilly, Olsen and Greene and never made a PB. I hope some of these guys are getting a good look by the Senior Committee.
Actually, Tony, I appreciate your source for confirming that Bob Lilly had more sacks than Merlin Olsen and Joe Greene, even if I don’t agree with his championing of Page as the best DT in his (admittedly, lol) biased and fawning blog. I agree with you about Jethro Pugh, Larry Cole, and others being underrated. But of course there’s more to playing DT or even DE for that matter than sacks. Charles Haley didn’t have a ton of sacks but was rightly viewed as a great pass rusher. Jim Jeffcoat (who also appears on your blogger’s list with over 100 sacks) had more sacks coming off the bench than Haley did in the 3 years they were teammates at Dallas.
Harvey Martin, DeMarcus Ware, and to some extent Randy White are well known to have been the sack masters in Cowboys history. But Bob Lilly is consistently ranked as the best defensive and often overall player.
I’m not sure what all “publications” you had in mind, but there’s a lot of shallow click bait out there. I cited HoF voters (All Decade teams), contemporary media (AP first team All Pro selections), and The Sporting News giving the edge to Lilly. It wouldn’t shock me if people are forgetting about Lilly. He didn’t become a broadcaster/actor like Olsen or star in an overly famous coke commercial like Greene. I’m not sure how many people under 30 even know who he is. That’s a shame, because in my opinion as a student of history, and in those of many of their contemporaries, Lilly was the greatest. Maybe an NFL Football Life episode would help educate people.
Should have added that Lilly recovered 18 fumbles (returning them 109 yards), Olsen recovered 9 fumbles (returning them 68 yards), and Greene recovered 16 fumbles (returning them 10 yards). They each had 1 interception, with Lilly and Olsen scoring on theirs. Lilly’s fumble return yardage was also interrupted when he entered the endzone 3 times. The other two never scored on a fumble return, nor did either earn a Pro Bowl at another position like the versatile Lilly did at DE.
Lilly had more touchdowns, more sacks, more top rush defense rankings, more first team All Pro selections, and stronger All Decade status.
Meant to add that if they kept a stat called “collapsed the offensive line and made three blockers look silly” Lilly would dominate that.
Just for the record I have Lilly and Page ranked right behind Olsen and Green. Then I have Randy White and John Randle ranked right behind them.
Guess you weren’t going by run defense, first team All Pro selections, or that other stuff I cited, including sacks since you have Randle and White ranked lower still.
That’s like a Dream Team for DT. lol I didn’t see him play but I would suspect Alex Karras should be on the list. The player I saw play the most was the “Manster” and IMO it would be hard to top his play in his prime.
http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/best-dt-not-hall-fame-mongo/
None of it is by numbers. It is all based on what I’ve seen with my own eyes, film or what I have read form national coverage. Local coverage is way too biased. I have every Super Bowl except the first two on DVD and over 300 other games on film that date back to the sixties. I have a lot of NFl fim stuff on old VHS tapes that I’m having put onto DVD (Costly but not too bad). Numbers can tell a tremendous story but certainly not the whole story. A perfect example is Bruce Mathews. He was a great player but he made his last few Pro Bowls on reputation. He was no longer “elite” after his 13th season (still a remarkable achievement. I have him ranked as the 5th best Guard behind Hannah, Parker, Larry Allen and Gene Upshaw. His reputation cost some Pro Bowls to other more deserving players. Having said that, he is the most versitle lineman of all time. He was Pro-bowl caliber at every line position! Ken Houston and Mel Renfroe are other examples of guys who made Pro Bowls that should not have at the end of their careers.
Alex Karras would be in the Hall of Fame if it wasn’t for some gambling issue (Hornung got a pass because Jim Taylor and Bart Starr went to bat for him.) I have 11 defensive tackles ranked ahead of him but would certainly endorse him for the Hall of Fame.
It wasn’t the number as much for me on Matthews it was making the PB at T-G-C. As far as reputation carry over it’s very common although not usually for four years.
When you rate a player are you doing based on having the greatness career or who you think was the best in their prime?
I think it’s too hard to pick which of the greatest of great players was actually better especially from the non skilled players. Career is much fairer way although still not always absolute.
I don’t think I can help but look at both a players peak and their career in totality. The thing that makes it mot difficult is how the size and speed of players has changed. Technically Forrest Gregg and Jim Parker had unbelievable skills that make them two of the best offensive lineman today. But in today’s game, they would be way too small.
Bill, I suspect you have much more visual information than the most football fans so you can evaluate with more accuracy. I know more than me who’s going off memory which is fading fast. LOL Plus growing up in the 1970’s my exposure to different teams was very limited compared to today’s standards. That said being starved for football we all watched extra closely I believe.
I agree Tony- What is also fun is to listen to the opinions of Ron Wolf, Gil Brandt, Tony Dungy and others about their opinions of all-time great players. Sometimes they can be biased but I like their opinions of players they played against.
Tony, you can find a lot of old games on youtube and the NFL has sold DVDs of some of them in the past. I think it’s best to combine the eyeball test with stats and other hard, objective facts, including witness testimony as Bill said.
I think I’ll check them out thanks.
Guessing the selection of the NFL 100th anniversary team will be based more on reputation than film study-so I applaud anyone who takes the time and effort to study film in making comparisons of players across decades.
This guys collection is insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!! https://gc009.k12.sd.us/xdolphingamesontape.htm
If you’re a Miami Dolphin fan you’re forced to live in the past. lol Lots of highs from the last SB win in 1973- 1996 but also crushing losses in big games. IMO with hindsight, Don Shula deserves so much more credit than he receives. He wasn’t just a top level Head Coach but also one the truly great football people of all-time. He was the glue that keep the organization’s standards so high. I never thought we’d end up being a crappy organization after so much winning. :(
I’ve moved on to support my state team, the Houston Texans, well as much as I still support the NFL these days. They need to get their act together.
When does the 100 Anniversary Team come out? I don’t know how they can compare modern players to the old-timers. How big is the Team? i’d hate to have to pick RB. I suppose they will be heavy with SB winners? Will Jim Brown be the only 60’s player? I suspect most from a team will be Steelers and Packers.
Jason Witten expected to retire. While, the ballot just got more crowded in 2023. I think he has a shot at first ballot, but chances are he will wait 2-3 years. That’ll push back worthy players who are going to be on the ballot in the future and some that are on it now.
100th anniversary team will come out in 2020 season, look at 75th team for much of the roster and add/replacements from a 10 or so recents would be my guess, Brady, Moss, Ray Lewis, TonyG, are a few that come right to mind
Jason Witten is definitely a hall of Famer but I could see him having too wait a few years. There are going to be a number of good players still left on the ballot from now until then and I can see a number of HOF Players retiring in the next year or two. I will miss watching him play. He was a professional all the way! Gates could be done this year as well. 2023 will be a stacked ballot.
I think Wittens chances at 1st ballot election really depends on whether Revis and/or Peterson are also on ballot
Updated HOF eligibles: I’ll throw in a few long shots too as well as the obvious.
2019 – Ed Reed, Tony Gonzalez, Champ Bailey
2020 – Troy Polamalu, Patrick Willis, Reggie Wayne
2021 – Peyton Manning, Charles Woodson, Calvin Johnson, Jared Allen, Steven Jackson, Wes Welker, John Abraham, Logan Mankins, Kevin Williams
2022 – Demarcus Ware, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Nick Mangold, Devin Hester, Vince Wilfork, Robert Mathis
2023 – Joe Thomas, Jason Witten, Dwight Freeney, James Harrison
In limbo: Adrian Peterson, Darrelle Revis, Antonio Gates
I’d also add P.Manning. Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders and possibly Ed Reed to Brady, Moss, Lewis and Gonzalez on the 100th anniversary team/squad.
And Gates currently without a team, if he is done playing could make 2023 even tighter for Witten especially since Freeney Gates Peterson and Revis are all on (or likely to be) all decade team members
Thanks Paul. I don’t think Stephen Jackson, Robert Mathis and, Logan Mankins quite make the grade. I was thinking Charles “peanut” Tillman had a shot until I saw he was only a 2/1. Still a really good player with 8 int. tds.
Reggie Wayne is still one that a have a little double take with when everyone talks like is a shoe in. I guess because for me he was over shadowed by Marvin Harrison and I maybe undervalued because Peyton Manning seemingly made everyone look better. I know Wayne was REALLY good! Not quite Andre Johnson good IMO but U-tastic. :)
For some crazy reason I was confusing Jim Parker for Buffalo’s Billy Shaw and I’m familiar with Shaw’s skill set as mainly a great pass protector. Bill, I now see why you rated Parker so high. lol
Opps…I missed Joe Thomas on my list of potential class of 2023 enshrinees: If Witten does in fact retire it could be very hard for him to secure election his 1st year on the ballot against Thomas, Dwight Freeney, and possibly Darrelle Revis ? Adrian Peterson? Antonio Gates? – those are five players with more all pro selections plus secured or likely all decade team selection. I dont think Witten would wait long, unless 2019 and 2020 retirees include wave of top QBs including Brady, BenR, Brees, EManning, PRivers.
Curious who y’all think is more HOF worthy at this point Eli Manning or Phillip Rivers?
Eli vs Rivers could be an interesting PFHOF debate for the voters, actually Eli alone will likely led to some pretty wide ranging views.
Eli 0/4/2SBs/2 SB MVP/career 6th yrds, 8th TDs,41st pass rating (15th INTs)
Rivers 0/7/ career 9th yrds, 6th TDs,8th pass rating
Eli will likely not be seen as a 1st ballot election, and may wait a several years-especially if up against other QBs from his era, but those 2 SBs with 2 MVPs is going to carry a lot of weight with the voters-and lets keep in mind its not just the two games alone, but he got his team there, yes not with huge passing numbers. But QB play is as much about making no mistakes and giving your team best chance to win and advance to the SB.
After P Manning, Brady, BenR, Brees (and Rodgers? and Eli??), I am not to sure where Rivers fits in after electing those five who at least some career overlap with him. With a few more good seasons he will move up on the key career passing lists, but lack of All Pro and playoff successes (SBs) will hurt his chances. He may get in, but could be in for a long wait.
I don’t think either Eli or Rivers should be in the HoF at this point. Manning has been below the NFL average in passer rating for literally half the seasons of his career. His completion percentage is below the league average for his era too. He won 2 Super Bowls on the strength of a defense during the parity era. I look at QB championships somewhat differently in the parity era than in the Great Team Era, when your team had to be good on both sides of the ball to win it all. This century there’s been more of a difference between QB-driven teams and defense driven teams. I don’t automatically give the same credit to a QB who rides a defense to a title even if he does play well in that game and maybe a few others along the way. Eli contributed to those championships but not to the same extent that Brees, Rodgers, or Brady contributed to theirs, or his brother contributed to his first one.
I put Eli Manning in the Jim Plunkett category.
Plunkett may be a decent omparison, but in many ways is not a good one. Plunkett was never selected to even a Pro Bowl, yes won 2 SBs and 1 SB MVP, but also never made top 10 in any career passing numbers. I agree that Eli falls short of many of his peer QBs, and has some serious career number issues and will have a wait for the PFHOF, but I think it will be real hard for the voters to dismiss his 2 SB MVPs and top ten in career passing yards and TDs forever. It also may not be a perfect, but I wonder if Kurt Warner may be best comparison to Eli?
Is everyone sure Jason Witten won’t make the 2010s All Decade team? He has posted 5 Pro Bowls and an AP first team All Pro selection this decade. Assuming there are 2 slots and one goes to Rob Gronkowski, it might be between Witten and Graham for the other one and it’s unclear how much Graham has left, though a couple of younger guys could tie them in Pro Bowls if they keep making it these last two seasons. Still looks close to me. If Witten does go to broadcasting maybe that would help keep him prominent in a good way on fellow media voters’ minds. All Decade voters sometimes do funny things. Of course I think Witten rightly should have been All Decade on the 2000s team and received a few more first team All Pro selections because blocking should count too for a TE, so it would be fitting if he got it this decade when it’s seemingly more of a stretch.
No, Kurt Warner was a phenomenal passer whose teams had exactly the kind of QB-driven success I talked about. Eli is a below average passer with some good moments, hence the rough but apt Plunkett comparison. No QB should be enshrined in Canton if he’s a below AVERAGE passer in his era. Of course this is such a passing stat inflated era that finishing top 10 in career yards means almost nothing if you played a long time. Several guys ranking ahead of him on that list from the same era have stronger HoF resumes. And 4 Pro Bowls, some of which were questionable, isn’t much of a HoF case by itself. The Plunkett comparison deals with a sub par QB who won 2 SBs. Plunkett posted an ever higher rating in his 2 SBs than Manning did in his, 122.8 to 96.2, but people rightly haven’t overlooked the rest of his career. Winning a SB is a huge deal, especially for a QB, but it’s not the ONLY thing that matters in HoF consideration.
Witten sure has a shot, but seems like his game and numbers have been on slide down most of this decade while other TEs Kelice and Olsen are picking up the All Pro votes-and will have chances again for 2018 and 2019 teams. I am certainly not suggesting Witten will have a long wait for election to the PFHOF, but if he faces five other all pro/all decade team members on his first ballot, with only 5 slots someone is going to be left out, maybe two of them in fact.
As I said the debate over Eli for the PFHOF is going to be an interesting one to see play out among the voters. Agree that one can not overlook the career numbers, but top ten in yards and TDs is still valued, and 2 SB MVPs hard to avoid-especially since QBs are judged on wins and SBs more so then any other position (right or wrong). I do think he will have a wait, but thinking in the long term Eli will be elected.
It’s been easy to avoid Plunkett’s 2 SB wins. I just don’t see that Eli is much better. He had a slightly better career with still below average stats and wasn’t even as good in absolute terms in his 2 SBs as Plunkett was.
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
I’d barely induct Ben Roethlisberger at this point, and he’s more deserving than Eli Manning. How many QBs from this era will be enshrined? There are only 7 QBs who mostly played in the 1980s/90s in, not counting Brett Favre or Kurt Warner, who both
played more this century, who overlapped with Eli, and who are already in Canton. That would add up to at least 7 HoFers from this 2000s-2010s era before you get to Eli and that’s not counting Russell Wilson or any great non-SB winning candidates (so far) like Matt Ryan, Mathew Stafford, Philip Rivers, Tony Romo, Carson Palmer, etc. who have much better stats than Eli. So far every era has SOME non-championship QB HoFers. If Andrew Luck, Cam Newton, or some other newer guys also overlapping with Eli end up having HoF quality careers then the Canton pipeline could get extremely tight.
Not as easy to avoid fact that Plunkett was never selected to a pro bowl or all pro-can we say that about any other current PFHOFer-especially a QB? Plus career and season numbers give him a career comparison that only includes one PFHOF-Ken Stabler, who at least has a 1/4/MVP/all decade profile with his 1 SB. I get that Plunkett’s two SB (and 1 SB MVP) merit his name in the conversation, but would take a huge leap from there to election. I just think the leap is much less difficult for Eli.
Ben R has a case very much like Eli, with top 10 passing numbers and the two SBs – again likely to wait several years from election, but voters do love them multi SB winners and top ten career passing numbers.
Eras are often hard to define, decades are easier (and yes I know many QBs careers cross decades), but if 1970s, 80s and 90s have 5 or 6, I see no reason why the 2000s and 2010s could not have at least 6 each if not more given the passing era that greatly benefit QBs
Great discussion! I think Rivers has played some of his best ball late in his career without LT. He hasn’t had much to work with. Made the PB with after a 5-11 season and two straight seasons now at 35 and 36. He’s a great leader and is the one guy I’d really like to see win a SB. I think he’s been the better QB over his career than Eli but the SB’s will always give Eli the shine over Philip which in the end will outweigh for most who are evaluating. I think both get into the HOF eventually. As far as no All Pro’s for Rivers, two names Brady and Manning. lol
Loved watching Plunkett but his body of great play wasn’t nearly long enough. I’d put Phil Simms and Joe Theisman in before him.
Big Ben’s gptta be viewed as a better QB than Eli. lol
Eli’s case doesn’t rest on his 4 Pro Bowls. It rests on his team’s 2 Super Bowl wins as Plunkett’s does. There are certainly lots of QBs with 4 or more Pro Bowls who AREN’T in the HoF. Stabler’s passer rating was firmly above the NFL average in his era and his completion percentage is identical to Eli’s in ABSOLUTE terms at 59.8%, which is astonishing considering that the league average increased from 51.1% in Stabler’s rookie season to 62.2% last year. Stabler had vastly better stats for his era than Eli does, he had 4 Pro Bowls like Eli, and he was NFL MVP unlike Eli, but look how long it took him to get inducted. He was very borderline. That this era benefits QBs so much may work AGAINST Eli since it waters down how meaningful top 5, let alone top 10, placement in career volume stats like yards are. Eli’s stats in particular come from him simply playing a long time.
Stabler led the league various years in completion percentage, TDs, yards/game, and passer rating. Eli has never led the league in any of those things. Eli has led the NFL in interceptions 3 years, however, unlike Stabler who never did that.
Either way, whether’s he’s inducted or not, Eli Manning will be a first. Either he’ll be the first starting QB with at least one career Pro Bowl to win multiple SBs and not make the HoF, or he’ll be the first QB with below average stats for his era across the board to be inducted. I wouldn’t induct him because I don’t think he’s even one of the top 10 or 12 QBs from this era, but it may come down to how crowded the candidate field ends up being.
What about Rivers?
John Riggins is the only player I recall in the HOF with 1 PB but also 1 AP same year.
I view Rivers as a guy who’s a little inferior to Tony Romo but is playing longer. They’re similar enough that I used to say either would have to win a SB to cement HoF status. But if Rivers ends up playing well for several more years he may have a legitimate regular season case with volume and efficiency combined, along with 7 Pro Bowls and counting, to earn a spot. He’s certainly better than Eli Manning.
Thanks.
I’m not quite buying the inferior to Tony Romo but hey we all come from a different perspective. :) I think if Romo could of followed up the excellence he showed in 2014 than I’d be more inclined to agree. Yup one SB would of cemented.
I partly base that on Romo having a better passer rating, a higher completion percentage, and more yards/games as a starter, in addition to having more mobility and an improvisational brilliance that was unsurpassed when he played. But I did say “a little”, lol. Rivers has the advantage in durability, which does matter, though part of that was Romo having some terrible offensive line play in the early years of his career when he was frequently running for his life and almost single handedly carrying the team.
In the top ten in key career passing numbers will get Rivers in the PFHOF discussion in the future
when will you quit the eli bashing rasputin
I would love it if RIvers had one Super Bowl team under his belt. All-time great guy and leader who has never quite had enough to compete on the grand scale and then of course plays in the AFC during the Brady era. if he even makes a Super Bowl he should go in. I agree that Roethlisberg and Eli have a better chance but i would rather have Rivers running my team. And sorry Cowboys fans…ROmo is not making the HOF!
Another factor to consider is the number of QBs playing longer careers and maintaining very good numbers, in case of Eli and some others perhaps not at All Pro or even Pro Bowl but good numbers, in 2016 season Eli passed for over 4,000 yards and 26TDS-yes not top of the league given the passing era we are in but still pretty solid numbers for a guy in his 13 season and then at age 35. Of course Brady sets the standard for late career performance but Rivers has 14 seasons, Ben R has 14 seasons, and there is Brees at 18 seasons, age 39, and last two Pro Bowls. Both Montana and Marino played 16+ seasons, but for each the last few were below average. Just wondering if at any other time in NFL has there been several starting QBs in league at same time still performing at good to excellent levels all with 14+ seasons?
For perspective, 7 of the top 10 career passing yards are held by post 2000 era QBs, and likely 2 of the others (Elway, and Moon) will be passed by Ryan and Rodgers in the coming few years. In career TDs, 8 of top 10 held by post 2000 era QBs, with Ryan perhaps 3-4 seasons away from displacing Tarkenton. What is also interesting is once you get get pass Brady, Brees, Rivers, BenR, Eli and Rodgers, with the exception of Ryan, there is big drop down on those lists to other current QBs. If we assume that it is likely that Brady, Brees, Rivers, Eli, and BenR all retire in next 2-3 yrs, it will take some time before the next era (post 2010 QBs) catch up to them.
One final observation about career passing leaders, its not just a few outstanding seasons (5,000 yards, 40TDs) that is required, but rather a sustained level of above average (3,500-4000+ yrds, 30+ TDs) over 10 yrs+ to get in the top ten. Clearly the post 2000 passing era rules and focus favors today’s QBs – and will do same for the post 2010 QBs, but the keys are both years and sustained top season numbers. With average QBs now looking at $25m a year salaries, even with advances in heath care, training etc…, with the concern over long term health and concussions, how many top performing QBs in the future will have 14 year+ careers? Are the current “big five” career numbers QBs a rarity more than a trend? Just a thought.
Yes, IMO with more QB’s collecting big stats they’ll be a little more irrelevant in the future. The one’s I would focus on are TD to Int. ratio, wins vs. losses, playoff success, accolades earned and lastly the eye test.
I am not so sure the top ten career numbers of any kind, including passing (but also rushing and receiving, sacks, INT) will become less irrelevant as still a pretty impressive career accomplishment to reach that level-even though it is clear that in terms of passing, QBs in the post 2000 era are at an advantage. I do think the impact will occur below the top 10 where career numbers that were achieved in the past and seen as significant including for PFHPF consideration (10,000 yrs rushing, 900 receptions, 40,000 career passing yards, 300 career passing TDs) will be seen more as the norm.
How do people feel about DeMarcus Ware’s chances fro the HOF. To me Leslie O’neal was a very similar but the only way he has a chance is if the Senior committee gives him a call.
DeMarcus Ware is 1st ballot PFHOFer-easily and no question. He also has advantage of 1st year on ballot with a lack of other serious 1st ballot election candidates. His profile screams PFHOF at 4(3)/9/SB/8th career sacks/All Decade, hits exactly what voters are supporting.
I agree, I’d put Ware, Peppers and Jared Allen on roughly the same level. All fantastic pass rushers.
Jared Allen 4/5/11th career sacks appears on the ballot in 2022 – a year before Ware. I am not so sure voters would view Allen as 1st ballot but he has a chance (he certainly is deserving of election at some point). If he falls onto the 2023 ballot, given recent tendency of the PFHOF voters to ignore time on ballot and select 1st year candidates with all decade creds, I would have to think Ware would get elected over Allen in 2023. if it came down to that choice.
I’m not looking to go “eli bashing”, robert ewing, I’m just looking at the facts. I don’t know of any HoF QB whose efficiency stats were below the NFL average for his era and I don’t think such a QB belongs in Canton.
Some quibbles with Bill’s team above:
QB: Joe Montana, maybe Otto Graham
FB: move Jim Brown here
RB: add Emmitt Smith
TE: John Mackey
G: it’s close for me between Jim Parker and Larry Allen. Flip a coin
WR: replace TO with Ray Berry
K: Nick Lowery, maybe Lou Groza
P: Sammy Baugh
DT: replace Joe Greene with Bob Lilly
DE: agree with Deacon Jones over Bruce Smith
CB: replace Mike Haynes with Dick Lane or Jim Johnson
Re Jim Plunkett vs. Eli Manning. I think Eli is the better of the two in regular season play. Hard to get worse than Plunkett. I wouldn’t vote for either as a HoFer, but Eli has a better case of these two.
I think Ware, Peppers, and Allen are all HoFers, and Dwight Freeney makes four. O’Neal (and Simeon Rice) strike as borderline, barring a compellingly overwhelming film study argument.
Agreed with Rasputin on the comment re robert ewing — nobody around here seems to bashing without a thoughtful argument. Robert, your best bet is to look at the argument and produce an effective counter case. That’s what we’re all doing, and for me that’s the best way to go about it. I say join in the discussion with concrete case thoughts of your own— I for one would welcome it!
Bachs, I’m curious how much you considered 5/9 CB Willie Brown with 52 Ints. who ended his career with a long SB TD ? Is that SF’s Jimmy Johnson you’re talking about.?
I like your pick of Raymond Berry.
RB seems like a position that’s too subjective to ever get agreement on. lol
I forgot to look at Punter. For me Shane Lechler is head and shoulders above everyone. He didn’t get the mention he could of because he played for bad teams in Oakland. Hopefully he win a SB with Houston. :)
I don’t think I can go against K Vinaterri’s big game kicking.
Was John Mackey considered evolutional like Gronk for the TE position? Why do you think Ditka’s name continually comes up as the best TE of his generation? Is it fair?
What do you think about the idea that Alan Page was the greatest DT with like 50+ more sacks than his peers?
Tony P
Yes, that’s the ‘Niners CB Jim Johnson. Willie Brown is in my top 4 CBs, just missing the cut for me.
Tough choice for me between Ditka and Mackey. Mackey has a slight edge for me, but one could certainly justify Ditka.
My top 4 DTs are Olson, Lilly, Greene, and Page. Can see an argument for any of them potentially.
I go for adjusted FG pct by era for PKs, which has Lowery far and away the best. Groza predates some of the period, but was darned good. Vinatieri is about average era adjusted.
I could see Lechler as a punter option, though Baugh likely would beat him relative to his era.
Baugh is a great choice but I didn’t choose any pre-WWII players as I just don’t have enough data…in comparison to era. Certainly those more qualified than me would probably give strong consideration to Baugh as a P, Mel Hein as a Center and Don Hutson as a wide receiver. I like Raymond Berry but he was mostly a possession receiver. A better version of Biletnikoff. But still, Berry is in my top six receivers of all-time. Jimmy Johnson was a HOF shutdown corner however he had not so great hands. Could have had many more interceptions if not for many drops. He was moved from receiver to CB early in Pro career because he couldn’t catch. He could blanket a receiver though! My top 5 CB’s are: D. Sanders, M. Haynes, R. Woodson, Night Train Lane and Mel Blount. Haynes did exactly what Johnson could do, just a little better in my opinion. R. Woodson could do everything well and had great hands. Lane and Blount were so effective that rules had to be changed in both era’s that these guys played in so that receives would not be killed!
With Witten’s retirement, let’s remember that although he will some day be in the Hall of fame, it may take awhile. At least as long as it did for Sharpe. It will not only because of other first time players eligible but because I see a significant amount of players that will have been long over due still not in.
I HATE HATE HATE the media and social media focus on1st ballot PFHOF changes each time a PFHOF caliber player retires-same happening today. They make it seem as some type of special honor when it really isn’t because with only 5 modern slots and always 10-15 deserving players more often than not some players wait. I will say this without reservation, Witten is a PFHOFer and will be elected even if it takes a few years and I doubt it will be long. Very possible that class of 2023 could be stacked with five other 1st ballot players, all of whom are multiple all pro and all decade team members in Thomas, Revis, Freeley, Gates and Peterson. I don’t care if Witten is not 1st ballot or waits 2-3 years cause he is definitely and deservingly gettin in PFHOF
Well, you know what they say about LBs and DBs — if they had great hands, they would have been TEs and WRs. Besides, if your coverage is that good, you’re not going to need good hands because no one will throw in your direction anyway. Same thing with Deion Sanders and his aversion to tackling — the guy he’s covering won’t get the ball anyway, so it doesn’t reallly matter that much.
Thanks Bachs, great perspective. Lowery really was great.
Growing I remember Jim Bakken was considered pretty good. Kickers of the 70’s don’t look that good compared to today. lol Miami’s Garo Yepremian was really popular and had a long FG streak for his time until Mark Mosley beat it.
Does CB Charles Woodson get any love in the pecking order of all time greats? His 13 career TD’s is pretty great. I would imagine he’s a first or second ballot guy?
Charles Woodson will be a 1st ballot PFHOFer, hits all of what voters value with a profile of 4(4)/9/SB/DPOY/All Decade
Yes, I like Charles Woodson a great deal. I would rank him right behind Lane and Blount. I would probably put Champ Bailey in the low teens as far as all-time great Corners.
Sounds right to me. lol I sure wish Darren Sharper hadn’t of screwed up his life so bad or he’d be an early entrant too . I like the the way he played. Other than him or Tyrer I can’t think of a player who blew his HOF chance with bad behavior. opps take it back Alex Karras might be another case.
Tony P- you are so right about Darren Sharper, Jim Tyrer and Alex Karras (although I think he eventually gets in). I can’t think of any other tragic or disturbing circumstance that has kept anyone else from consideration. The only other situation is some players that had late starts to their career because they went to the USFL. It didn’t hurt Jim Kelly, Reggie White or Gary Zimmerman but I truly think if Herschel Walker had gone directly to the NFL he would have had a legimate chance to put up NFL numbers that would have put him in consideration for the NFL Hall of Fame. Gary Clark WR might have done the same.
An alternative history where the Herschel Walker did not leave after his junior year to play for the NJ Generals, but instead stayed at Georgia for his senior year and then drafted into NFL (at that time only seniors were eligible for the NFL draft) would have been interesting. New England held the 1st pick in the “weak” 1984 draft and selected Irving Fryar and had Craig James at RB. Very likely they would have selected Walker, giving him two additional seasons in the NFL (he was not drafted by DAL in 1985). Hard to say whether he would have still had a 2,000 yrd season in the NFL, but two Pro Bowl RB seasons could have been possible, 1st team All Pro much harder; Curt Warner, Earl Campbell and Joe Cribbs were AFC RBs, Eric Dickerson had All Pro season as 2,000+yrd rushing season in 1984; Marcus Allen and Payton were 1985 All Pro. And without splitting carries with Dorsett in 1986/1987, Walker likely would have had chance for strong rushing seasons, and pro bowls (2nd team All Pro) for four seasons 1984-1987. But who knows beyond that as from 1989-1997 (9 additional seasons) he only had one 1,000 yrd season. Makes you wonder if toll on his body or NFL teams adjusting to him would have also happened in an alternative NFL history. I think the only way his alternative history would have placed him in much stronger consideration for the PFHOF would be to assume his USFL numbers (including 1,800+ yrd season, and 2,400+ yrd season) would have occurred in the NFL-or very similar numbers – that would have gotten him to his combined USFL/NFL career numbers at 5th all time in NFL career rushing and #1 in total combined yards. Hard to believe his USFL numbers would have transferred to the NFL. And he would have battled some pretty good deserving PFHOF players for All Pro and All Decade teams in Payton, Dickerson and others. The key question for me would be by starting in the NFL and having 5-6 really good seasons would the last several years (where his numbers really fall off) been any different??
Even in this reality Herschel Walker retired ranked #2 in career all purpose NFL yards in 1997 with 18,168, behind only Walter Payton. Adding 3 more prime seasons would only increase that, probably by a great deal to the #1 ranking. He had over 1,300 yards from scrimmage in each of his first 4 NFL seasons, including leading the league with 1,606 in 1987 and posting 2,019 in 1988. Given his utter domination of the USFL those 3 years he played there it’s very likely that if he had joined the NFL earlier he would have churned out elite seasons similar to those that followed.
But makes you wonder if he would have reached a similar level of domination (first team all pro) each of his first three years in NFL or lack of quality depth across the USFL was more of a factor. Plus wonder if after 6-7 very good seasons in NFL would remainder of career improve compared to reality? I know he built up impressive career total yards but would that alone improve him to PFHOF status or more pro bowl caliber 1000y seasons through out career to the end?
Though the USFL (like the early AFL) wasn’t equal to the NFL in quality it was a good league with lots of good and great players. Walker was arguably the very best player in that entire league during its existence. That tells me he’s not the kind of player who comes into the NFL needing a year or two to acclimate before breaking out. He’s the type who comes in and makes at least a Pro Bowl his rookie year. That wouldn’t have surprised anyone considering how great he was rightly perceived as being coming out of college. He’s still widely in the argument for greatest college player of all time.
He didn’t need to rush for 2,400 or even 1,800 yards in a season like he did in the USFL for another couple of prime years to have made a big impact on his NFL rushing totals. Two more 1,500 yard rushing seasons, very feasible for him if he’s not splitting carries with Dorsett, puts him well over 11,000 rushing yards even without revising what he went on to do in real life. If he only averaged 500 receiving yards those two years (in real life he had 837 and 715 receiving yards in his first two NFL seasons) he’d be tacking on at least 4,000 all purpose yards, bringing his career total to well over 22,000 even assuming no extra kick returns.
Big variables are in play though, like what team he lands at. I think he might have been in the HoF already if he had stayed at Dallas. A big, unasked for trade like that can derail a player’s career, especially when teams like the Vikings and Eagles misuse him as they did. Perhaps my clearest memories of Walker were after his return to Dallas in 1996. I remember being in awe of how much tread he still had on the tires and how physical and effective he was returning kicks, playing FB, or doing whatever they asked him to do. Without Emmitt I’m convinced he still could have been a good feature RB even then. The man just had an undefeated MMA career in his 50s. He won multiple superstars events, was an Olympic bobsledder, danced ballet, and even won a reality cooking show contest among other things. One should never count him out of anything he sets his mind to.
I think Walker had a HoF quality career in real life as it is. I would vote to induct him based on his great NFL APY total. Any credit given to his USFL production or overall pro records by the “Pro Football” Hall of Fame would be a bonus.
I hate to disagree Rasputin. I can see you have you have the type of passion for Walker as I do for a couple of my Dolphin players. I’ll say If there was an all-athlete HOF Walker would be a shoe in along with Bo Jackson. He was so awesome in his 1,500 yd season for a crappy team which made it even more impressive but I believe he’ll be always known for being a bust in Minnesota in an awful trade. And only one real impressive NFL season won’t get it done IMO. No shame lots of fine football players don’t make the HOF.
I’d love to see Darren Sproles in the HOF one day for his 22.000 yds of all around productivity but I don’t think it’s ever happening. IMO Ottis Anderson is the most deserving RB’s not to be in the HOF.
If we’re talking all purpose yards, I can see an argument for Herschel Ealker for the HoF, especially if we’re adjusting for period. Sproles is good, but his totals would be inflated a bit given when he played. One could do worse.
And Walker had more than one impressive NFL season, Tony P.
Living here in Austin I remember how exciting and awesome Herschal was when he joined the Cowboys. They live and breathe Cowboys down here. lol Every sports cast is all about the Cowboys starting in July. Walker had the misfortune of joining a team that had a HOF and beloved player in Tony Dorsett. I think it’s like you said it all comes down to how he was used in his career.
I was living in the Twin cities when he arrived in 1990 and I don’t know if there’s ever been a player put under more scrutiny. I listened to the great Sid Hartman frequently and the big complaint was that he ran too straight up and wasn’t good enough at gaining yards when he hit the line., He was great at running in a straight line with his blazing speed and strength and if he got up to speed with a crack he was gone as folks bounced off of him. That’s why he was so good as a kick return guy. The problem is he just wasn’t allowed to get up to speed in Minnesota and his straight up style made him easier to tackle. He still did good but he couldn’t live “the trade” and few could.
Ok I’ll give you one great season, two very good that could of been great, three good ones and three decent. A nice career but IMO not HOF worthy. Will always be a career of what could of been and a little bit of a mystery to me. Have you seen the guy? He could still play today. lol He is one impressive human being, a great role model that’s easy to pull for.
Check that, all about the Cowboys and my beloved Longhorns. :)
Has anyone heard what the the heck the knock is on OJ Anderson? He was a sensation when he broke into the League and had some really good years for a mediocre Cardinals team than blew out his knew really bad, was ineffective for two years and recreated himself as a power back. The Giants don’t beat the Bills in the SB without the 33 year old RB dogged determination. I know 3.1 average isn’t but getting a 1,000 yds on that average is. He was a workhorse and a great do everything player in his last year. If I’m not mistaken he blocked pretty well and caught the ball very well. The 80’s was a strong decade for Defense especially in the NFC so consideration should be given when looking at his numbers. If John Riggins can be in the HOF so should OJ. He didn’t exactly have the Hogs to block for him. lol I remember him as one of the most elusive runner of the time.
The early 80’s was a damn impressive time for RB talent with Earl, Dorsett, OJ Anderson, Billy Sims, George Rogers, Marcus Allen, Riggins, Dickerson and Walter. I might of missed one or two. lol
Chuck Muncie!
Yea I agree it is possible Herschel Walker could have had a career similar to Eric Dickerson and ended up in the PFHOF, add 3-4 more 1,000 seasons, a few all pro and pro bowls, maybe a 1800-2000 yrd season and he would have been there (not in reality but under the alternative history that he never went to USFL and got drafted right into NFL after completing a senior year at Georgia). Interesting in that in the 1980s (especially in second half of the decade) the NFC was weaker in terms of consistent top performing RBs with Dickerson the one exception. Plus many early 80s RBs simply fall off in production or were injured – including Sims and Rogers. Riggins making the 80s all decade team (2nd team) is pretty revealing of the lack of sustained quality RB play throughout the decade as he career ended in 1985 with two 1,000 seasons in the 80s, but only 1/1 profile, but MVP and SB MVP/win helped his PFHOF status.
As to OJ Anderson I think he gets lost in the 1980s RBs discussion and with only a 1/1 profile easy to forget that he had a great all pro rookie season and was a SB MVP. But perhaps that is the issue, just one good season and one memorable game? At one time he held an impressive spot in the top career rushing leaders but in recent decade has seen him fall to 28th. Not sure he ever will have a chance, now fallen into seniors pool?
I thought Anderson passed the eye test for a HOF player in his first six seasons and that might get him in the HOF conversation but apparently not. I mean when he came out I was thinking wow his name is OJ !! That’s tough to live up too but then I thought wow this guy really is great. Being in St. Louis he didn’t get quite the exposure he could of. Hell I think the media talked more about the Jets Freeman McNeil than Anderson. lol And I do know Dallas didn’t look forward to seeing him. lol will always remember how he torched the Cowboy’s Flex Defense for 193 yds on 21 carries in Anderson;s first game as a pro. They still lost the game. lol
Other RB’s during that time period that were effective but had less distinguished careers include: Freeman McNeil, Joe Morris, William Andrews, James Wilder, Wendell Tyler and Curt Warner. Don’t forget a guy that I would put in the HOF right now in Roger Craig.
If the PFHOF is serious about addressing the backlog of senior candidates – via a large special class in 2020 for the 100th anniversary of the NFL or making the annual senior slot 2 or more – getting pre 1980 off the seniors list and into the PFHOF, will help players like Roger Craig and OJ Anderson at least have a chance as a finalist and having their names debated in front of the full selection committee. At this point with more 1990s/2000s modern players arriving on the ballot each year, plus the large number of all decade players pre 1980s in the seniors pool, I would find it hard to make the case for Craig or Anderson (and some other post 1980s players) over other more deserving and often longer waiting candidates.
Tony P, I’m honestly not sure which Walker season is the “one” you’re allowing was “great”. The year he led the league with 1,606 yards from scrimmage? The one where he posted 2,019 yards? Or the one where he had 1,574 yards while scoring 14 TDs? That was only two off the franchise TD record later broken by Emmitt Smith. Then there’s the 1990 season where he led the league with 2,051 all purpose yards. While that was at Minnesota Walker’s total Dallas kick off return average of 25.3 y/r, all compiled in his last 2 seasons of 96/97, remains one of the highest in franchise history.
Is it just me or does the statistic of total yards from scrimmage lack meaning and significance in terms of season and career performances, seems like many people including PFHOF voters dismiss its value? Compared to total passing, rushing or receiving yards I too have a challenge giving total yards its place. Has any RB ever been elected to PFHOF largely based on total yards gained (compared to say their rushing yards?) What about WR?
The main reason I can see to downplay the total yards from scrimmage case would be the significant number of yards kickoff return men normally put up. It’s not unusual for such players to put up ca. 20-25 yards in the bank of every kickoff return — something one doesn’t see much on punt returns, for example. But that depends on how one sees it, I guess.
To be clear, “yards from scrimmage” is just rushing and receiving, not returning. All three count toward “all purpose yards”. People aren’t used to players excelling in multiple categories. Usually they’re mostly a rusher, a receiver, or a returner. Herschel Walker is the only player in history to have over 4,000 yards three different ways. To me that makes him different than someone like Brian Mitchell (mostly returner) or even Darren Sproles (only 1 thousand yard season from scrimmage), though I’ve actually seen some HoF buzz and arguments for those guys too. I’ve always said he has a unique HoF case, one that’s hard for some to wrap their minds around because it doesn’t neatly fit a pre-established template. But I’d induct him solely on his NFL career. Then there’s the issue of it being called the “Pro Football” Hall of Fame and not the “NFL Hall of Fame”. Counting his USFL stats Walker has more total yards than any other pro football player. It seems wrong for the man holding that record to not be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Should clarify that I’m talking about American pro football there in terms of Walker’s record.
Walker might be the type of player who would need the innovative out side the box thinking that tends to come from the senior committee route rather than the modern. Perhaps someday they will take that shot so at least his case can be heard in from of entire committee. With a (2)/2 profile I doubt he ever gets into final 15 as modern, same for other KR/PR and total yards/combined yards types like Mitchell and others. Really hard with only 5 modern slots to get one up to players with fewer plays per game and lack of sustained season and career numbers and awards.
And I think Walkers PFHOF case would be much stronger if USFL numbers were included (that of course is a separate debate). Hard to say if the voters would ever take that into consideration, unless the smaller seniors committee makes the case – noting they are the only way there is a Punter in the PFHOF.
And while I can agree that most people, including fans, have no idea how to value combined yards (or all purpose yards), although Walker had two all pro/pro bowl seasons, he only led the NFL in total yards once and all purpose yards twice, only twice was in top10 for season kick returns and kick yards, and only 2 career KR TDs and is 11th in career all purpose yards (not in top 20 of any other career numbers). As others have noted in terms of combined yards and all purpose yards stronger cases can be made for Mitchell and Sproles. Walker only had two 1000 yr seasons, two 10+ total TD seasons, and as a receiver only 50+ reception seasons within a 12 year NFL career. Yes he was a unique versatile weapon but really for only 3 or 4 seasons, Besides one 75 reception season, his last 5 seasons were pretty average (or worse). I am a big Walker fan, like Bo, he really brought a new size speed talent combination into the league but in both cases the peak was quick and short, and not stained enough. For me it would be really hard to make a strong case for Walker, over other RBs including peers not yet in the PFHOF.
Now if the PRO FOOTBALL HOF were to be more receptive to considering his USFL numbers, then it could be a much different case. Do I think they should-yes, do I think they ever will, unlikely as for whatever reason people dismiss the USFL as a glorified semi-pro minor league operation that really lacked quality depth across the league (some argue that he faced higher quality or equal while in college as his USFL and Georgia numbers are remarkably similar).
But I agree it makes for an interesting debate otherwise, and more so to consider alternative histories if he had joined the NFL after his senior year or if the USFL had merged with the NFL (like the AAFC and AFL) giving their players and numbers instant credibility.
The all purpose yardage argument with Walker is primarily a career volume one. Retiring ranked #2 all time is by definition almost as good as one can do. That he did lead the league in various categories in single season stats adds credibility to his case. That he was much stronger in offensive play than the mostly kick returning Mitchell marks Walker as qualitatively different and gives him the edge in that comparison. Sproles is more similar to Walker but also is less of an offensive player. Sproles has never had a 1,000 yard rushing or receiving season, and only exceeded 1,000 yards in combined yards from scrimmage once. Most of his yards have come from kick returns.
Walker had 9 years of over 1,000 yards from scrimmage and 6 years of over 1,300 yards from scrimmage. For comparison Roger Craig, whom has been heavily pushed by some for the HoF, only had 7 years of over 1,000 yards from scrimmage and finished with 73 TDs to Walker’s 82 (Walker had 84 counting the returns).
That said, I agree with what you said earlier about Walker standing a better chance in eventual senior committee consideration, where they seem less guided by accolades like Pro Bowls and might be more capable of thinking outside the box.
I have always viewed Darren Sproles as a big time weapon. I wish he was used more beginning of his career. He had LT and Michael Turner ahead of him with the Chargers. Turner was a very solid back in himself with the Falcons. 2x Pro Bowler and 1x All Pro, with a near 1,700 rushing yard season. Anyway, I know it’s a big long shot he gets in, but Sproles to me is ballot worthy for sure and deserves consideration. I hope he can play another 2 years but a mid 30s RB doesn’t appeal to teams(Frank Gore got signed because teams like to sign future HOFers).
I agree with you Brad. He was a one man wrecking crew at KState. I don’t think many thought he could have the same effect in the NFL with his lack of size but he has. He’s one of the better punt returners I’ve seen. And can you imagine if Sproles was used in San Diego like he was used in New Orleans? Still he’s had a very good career. Maybe he’ll get consideration as a Senior.
If regular offense and defense all decade and all pro players sit in the seniors pool for decades I would not hold out much help there for Sproles or any primary KR/PR or even many other K or P or ST players unless PFHOF rules are ever changed to get many more slots for senior selections.
Does anyone think these RB stats could make the HOF one day? 82 starts 1780 att. 8172 yds 86 tds. 4.6 avg. 339 catches 2962 yds 8.7 avg 8 tds 3- time All Pro over 10 year career.
ok just curious 5 best senior qb nominees
5 best Senior QB nominees
1. Kenny Anderson
2. Roman Gabriel
3.. Charlie Conerly
4. John Hadl
5. Cecil Isbell
OK I’ll play. lol
1. Anderson
2. Gabriel
3. Simms
4. Hadl
5. Theisman
6. Plunkett
7. Hart
8. Brodie
9. Kilmer
10. Morrall
What no one likes a mystery question? lol
“Does anyone think these RB stats could make the HOF one day? 82 starts 1780 att. 8172 yds 86 tds. 4.6 avg. 339 catches 2962 yds 8.7 avg 8 tds 3- time All Pro over 10 year career.”
Any playoff successes (or numbers?). Any single season top rushing seasons? Guessing not All Decade? How many 1,000 yard seasons?
Based on what you provide I would think such a candidate would have a hard time getting elected.
How about a time period for context, Tony P?
Priest Holmes.
As to top 5 senior QBs, the only one I would see as a PFHOFer is Anderson (and maybe Gabriel). All I do know is that there are many more deserving players, especially at LB and DB than there are at QB. My top 10 seniors only has one QB (Anderson) and my top 25 still only Anderson, whereas my top 10 has 5 LB or DB and my top 25 has 13 LB or DB!
I would put Holmes in the Shaun Alexander and Marshawn Lynch category slightly behind Corey Dillon and Ricky Waters,
Agreed Bill, along with Jamel Lewis, Steve Jackson and Fred Taylor, and not so sure any end up in PFHOF. Nothing really outstanding that makes one of them stand much above the others and many lack all pro, pro bowl selections, playoff successes, etc… Sure they may end up in the seniors pool but we all know how deep that is and how hard to get out to be considered for election
You got it Rasputin! The ‘Priest” is a bit of a legend in KC as y’all know.. He had a record setting Sun Bowl but I don’t think anyone guessed he’d have great NFL success. He had two of the best NFL seasons for a RB with 21 and 23 AV. Can’t say if he ever makes HOF. I’d lean not because he may suffer the narrative of the Bronco RB’s that anyone could rush for a 1,000 yds in that offense. He was sandwiched between Larry Johnson and Jamaal Charles. I hope that doesn’t happen.
My bad Holmes was the first of those 3 KC RB’s Wow it doesn’t seem like that long age.
Just not so sure that 3 great seasons (and only four 1,000 yr seasons) in a 10 yr career is going to be enough for Holmes to get in PFHOF
Yeah, he was good when I followed him at Texas but the extent of his NFL success probably caught most Longhorn fans by surprise too. UT underused him and he was overshadowed by Ricky Williams his senior year. He was a truly great NFL running back and was the first to break Emmitt Smith’s single season rushing TD record of 25 by scoring 27 in 2003. He also won a SB ring as a Ravens backup, lol. With Terrell Davis’ induction I think a guy with as spectacular a peak as Holmes’ has to legitimately be on the table for serious discussion. Maybe a long term senior pool guy, but a serious candidate.
Yeah, Tony P, he was good when I followed him at Texas but the extent of his NFL success probably caught most Longhorn fans by surprise too. UT underused him and he was overshadowed by Ricky Williams his senior year. He was a truly great NFL running back and was the first to break Emmitt Smith’s single season rushing TD record of 25 by scoring 27 in 2003. He also won a SB ring as a Ravens backup, lol. With Terrell Davis’ induction I think a guy with as spectacular a peak as Holmes’ has to legitimately be on the table for serious discussion. Maybe a long term senior pool guy, but a serious candidate.
As I posted before I am not so sure Terrell Davis’ election really helps set the stage for other short career RBs as a NFL MVP, SB MVP, all decade team, 2x SBs, 2000 Yrd season and 3/3 profile is not common and hard to replicate.
And as long as we have all decade team members waiting in the seniors pool for decades I would not hold out much hope for any player who ends up in there
For the Class of 2019 there will be eight eligible returning finalists.
Ty Law
Tony Boselli
Kevin Mawae
Steve Hutchinson
Alan Faneca
Isaac Bruce
Edgerrin James
John Lynch
There will also be 11 eligible returning semi-finalists from 2018.
Steve Atwater
Ronde Barber
LeRoy Butler
Don Coryell
Torry Holt
Jimmy Johnson
Karl Mecklenburg
Leslie O’Neal
Simeon Rice
Richard Seymour
Hines Ward
Roger Craig, Joe Jacoby and Everson Walls will now be in the Seniors pool.
So, eight finalists and 19 semi finalists are back on the 2019 ballot along with first time eligibles and Top 15 locks Ed Reed, Tony Gonzalez and Champ Bailey. Who else do we see breaking into the Top 25 and Top 15 next year?
Are you from Texas Rasputin? I’m impressed with your Longhorn knowledge. I’ve been in Central Texas since 1969 when I was 6 years old. You do the math. lol We turn out good RB’s and CB/S but not much else lately. A couple years ago I thought Jamaal Charles was a HOF shoe in but now it looks like Preist has the best chance of the lot of Ricky, Benson, and Jamaal. As a Longhorn fan I always think what might of been if Benson and Jamaal stayed a year or two longer in school. lol
I’m tired of Joe Jacoby! lol Put Bob Kuchenburg in first!! He wa better over a longer period of time and also was in his time in the early 70’s with HOFer G Larry Little, HOFer C Jim Langer, RT Norm Evans and LT Wayne Moore part of greatest OL in history up to that point. He’s so past due!! The man is now 70 let him enjoy it for a little while. :)
RIP Billy Cannon, a Heisman winner and giant of LSU Football and close friend of Johnny Robinson.
SUMMARY
AFL Career as RB/FB/TE/Ret
G 133 – Rush 602 – Yds 2,455 – Y/A 4.1 – TD 17 – Rec 236 – Yds 3,656 – y/r 15.5 – Tds -47 – Yds Scrim 6,111 Ret Yds 7,993
I bet Bachlunch remember Billy. I didn’t get to see him. Here are some thoughts taken from Johnny’s nephew Troy.
“My heart is heavy for the family of Billy Cannon and for my own. Billy was a dear friend (brother) to my cousin Johnny Robinson. The bond between them two was something to be admired. ”
” I pray for strength and guidance to all who knew Mr. Billy and for peace knowing he is in Gods kingdom now. Forever LSU #20!!”
Forgot to state , Billy Cannon was a 3 time AFL Champion and 2 PB/ 2 AP
“He’s so past due!! The man is now 70 let him enjoy it for a little while. :)” No offense intended, and not implying a slight to the case for Kuchenburg, but I can quickly name two other more deserving players who should have chance to enjoy it first before their “time” is up (and both are currently in poor health): Howley (81) and Robinson (79). But my pointing that out to notable PFHOF voters who have blogs and other forums on which they discuss candidates and voting, only gets dismissed as a non factor.
2018 Final 25
Steve Atwater
Ronde Barber
Tony Boselli
Isaac Bruce
Don Coryell
Roger Craig
Brian Dawkins
Alan Faneca
Rodney Harrison
Torry Holt
Steve Hutchinson
Edgerrin James
Joe Jacoby
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
Ray Lewis
John Lynch
Clay Matthews
Kevin Mawae
Karl Mecklenburg
Randy Moss
Terrell Owens
Brian Urlacker
Hines Ward
Darren Woodson
2018 Final 15
Ronde Barber
Tony Boselli
Isaac Bruce
Brian Dawkins
Alan Faneca
Edgerrin James
Joe Jacoby
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
Ray Lewis
John Lynch
Kevin Mawae
Randy Moss
Terrell Owens
Brian Urlacker
2018 Elected (5) Predictions
Tony Boselli
Brian Dawkins
Ty Law
Ray Lewis
Kevin Mawae
opps sorry, those were my 2018 lists, let me correct to 2019 predictions, my bad!
Yes I’m from Texas, Tony P. I think the Longhorns are firmly on the upswing if they can figure out the QB situation. Success breeds success in college. And O-lineman Connor Williams just went high in the draft so hopefully they’re expanding back out from just RBs and DBs, lol.
Jamaal Charles has a long term case too given his insanely high y/a. While I share some of Paul’s skepticism of their chances I hold out a little more hope because it seems like there a lot fewer RBs from this era having the type of careers traditionally viewed as HoF worthy. The current game just isn’t conducive to long, stable running back careers at high volume production, particularly with a single team and multiple expensive contract renewals involved. That could mean more room for guys like Charles and Holmes.
I’ve always thought Vince Young should have stayed a year longer too. He made enormous strides in the passing game from his sophomore to junior seasons and with more polish might have had more success in the pros. Plus Texas would have walked to a repeat national title with all the returning players they had and the lack of another great team in the country.
Here let me try again!
2019 Final 25
Steve Atwater
Champ Bailey
Ronde Barber
Tony Boselli
Isaac Bruce
LeRoy Butler
Don Coryell
Alan Faneca
Tony Gonzalez
Rodney Harrison
Torry Holt
Steve Hutchinson
Edgerrin James
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
John Lynch
Clay Matthews
Kevin Mawae
Karl Mecklenburg
Leslie O’Neal
Ed Reed
Simeon Rice
Richard Seymour
Hines Ward
Darren Woodson
2019 Final 15
Steve Atwater
Champ Bailey
Tony Boselli
Isaac Bruce
Don Coryell
Alan Faneca
Tony Gonzalez
Steve Hutchinson
Edgerrin James
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
John Lynch
Kevin Mawae
Karl Mecklenburg
Ed Reed
2019 Elected (5) Predictions
Champ Bailey
Tony Boselli
Alan Faneca
Tony Gonzalez
Ed Reed
Now Paul, you should know I was talking in respect to Joe Jacoby. lol Of course I want Johnny in immediately!!! Been saying it for 10 years.
Paul being a skeptic? LOL I think we’re all too soft in Paul’s world. lol I still like you Paul. :) lol
Rasputin, yes the thought crossed my mind that Connor could be really great if he stays healthy. Brian Orakpo represented UT really well at LB with 4 PB’s. I hope Malik Jefferson turns out to be a great pro and future HOFer. Jordan Hicks isn’t bad either for the Eagles with 5 ints. at MLB. Looks like I may of shorted UT’s NFL success. lol I just wish the talent would transfer to Longhorn success. Maybe this year?
And IMO like so many great NT’s before him, I don’t believe 5-time PBer, ex-Longhorn and Steelers Casey Hampton 5/0 was a premier run stuffer (only 9 sacks ) will not make the HOF because the stats don’t reflect the importance of the role he played.
We’ve discussed here before, the great NT’s of the past like Fred Smerlas 5/1 with 29.5 sacks, Bob Baumhower 5/1 with 39.5 sacks before he blew out his knee, Joe Klecko 4/2 with sacks ? (12.5 as NT, played DE and DT for more than half his career) and Jerry Ball 3/1 with (32.5 total sacks but only 15.5 as a NT).
Maybe getting Curly Culp (68 sacks but played DT for half his career) in will be the start of something? Could they really elect Vince Wilfork 5/1 with 16 sacks but played multiple positions and ignore these other guys?
I will continue to say Alabama alum, Dolphins great (THE Killer B), Rookie of the Year and Defensive POY as a NT lol , Bob Baumhower 5/1 should be in the HOF as one of if not the best pure NT’s of all-time. :)
I know Tony, was just giving you a hard time for fun. And it’s not that I am a skeptic or take issue with posters promoting deserving players to be considered for the PFHOF, just my frustration coming out directed at the voters, especially seniors committee, who for too long have done great disservice to many players still waiting decades later for election. So yea perhaps I overreact or lash out at some candidates suggested when I know how hard it is for even all decade and multiple all pro players to get in given the limited slots each year and the all too frequent decisions-some going back decades- about who does get in, while at expense of others by the voters.
Paul, nothing wrong with being tougher judge of talent I was only teasing you not trying to criticize.
The HOF should be only for the top career standouts or players having such an excellence that we need them to tell the NFL story like a Ernie Nevers, Gale Sayers or Terrell Davis.
Everyone seems to have a slightly different HOF criteria but we can all agree on most. That said, there’s a natural tendency to view a few of our favorite players with our hearts over our heads and know one really likes to be called out on it. LOL :)
Just an observation, looking at Terrell Davis other than playing with SB talent and having an opportunity to excel more in the Playoffs, I don’t see much difference between Priest Holmes and Davis. Priest really shone once he became the main man with the Chiefs. I hope Priest is given real HOF consideration down the road.
Well playing with SB talent is often an advantage that many players have (including some who are able to use it to build a PFHOF career, but many others do not). Really hard for me to separate a player who achieves greatness on his own versus those that may have benefited from association with other greatness on the same team. Hard to known which one was the more important factor-and can be said for many PFHOFers. Emmitt Smith, Terry Bradshaw, etc…. the list goes on.
All I know and can observe and back up with facts/data is that Terrell Davis had one of the most remarkable high achieving short careers that earned him 3/3/2xSB/MVP/SB MVP/2000 yr season/All Decade Team. I look at that and compare to Priest Holmes and I see a difference, makes it hard for me to make a strong case that Holmes is equally deserving of the PFHOF, fair or not fair as impossible to speculate on team success and role it may have played under an alternative future where KC wins SBs. I just look at RBs in the PFHOF, and then compare to Priest (several of his peer RBs), look at limited slots for election, and the competition with equal or more deserving players at other positions and figure he did not have a PFHOF career, a great outstanding few years but not PFHOF. A perspective, based on voting history, I suspect would be shared by the majority of PFHOF voters. Admittedly if the PFHOF elected 8-10 modern players a year, that assessment might be very different-not that I am endorsing that many slots, but just making an observation that election is and always has been a “numbers” game-limited slots each election. Even over decades some players will continue to fall short.
For the record Emmitt Smith was winning rushing titles before he won any Super Bowls, and in fact before his offensive line had a single career Pro Bowl between them.
I love Terry Bradshaw’s personality but hate the way he talks about how his Team was so much better than my Dolphins when they went undefeated. He sounds like a total jealous boob. The Steelers biggest weakness in the early 70’s was him. lol He was pretty great the last half of his career but was very inconsistent/ mediocre in his early days. Steeler fans howled for Joe Gilliam and even Terry Hanratty in 73-74.
Shula pushed his Team damn hard after their embarrassing loss to Dallas in SB 6. What part of Steelers were better than the League’s number one ranked Offense and Defense? It was that weak finesse Dolphin D that knocked Bradshaw’s ass out for a big chunk of the game. lol And never again will an undefeated Team have to play on the road in Pittsburgh in the Playoffs. lol That was ridiculous! Miami did get lucky in that on Dec. 31st it was a toasty 58 degrees with a 16 mph wind.
IMO Emmitt Smith would of been a HOFer where ever he played. Maybe he only tops 12,000 yds. lol He was incredibly durable!
Did not mean to single out Emmitt, was just looking for examples were a debate exists about PFHOFer benefiting from team, I don’t think he is the best example just one some people bring up, not that I agree
Your right Paul, Emmitt has his detractors probably borne out of jealousy and dislike for the Cowboys.
Usually they’re people who don’t know that Emmitt was the best RB in the nation at both the high school and college levels.
Agree and some who don’t like the Cowboys 90’s success. It seemed to come too easy but they were just that good.
I thought Emmitt was one of the classiest people to ever play the game. I loved listening to him with Norm Hitzges on Dallas’ KLIF sports talk. As a lifelong Cowboy hater that’s where my fandom started and ended, :)
I’ll leave the rest of my other opinions on their players in a lock box out of respect for Cowboy supporters. Next topic!! LOL
“I’ll leave the rest of my other opinions on their players in a lock box out of respect for Cowboy supporters. Next topic!! ”
I could never understand why some fans lump all (or many) players from the same team into their dislike or hatred of a team or specific player. I certainly have NFL teams I do not care for, and individual players across the league and NFL history, but do not hold that against every player of that team.
And yes Cowboys have their share of players fans love to hate,, but I suppose so does every team. And I know their successes and promotion drive fans to hate the Cowboys, but they have plenty of players every fan should at least appreciate and not out right hate: Witten, Sean Lee, current OL, Staubach, Drew Pearson, Dorsett, Lilly, just to name a few.
Oh I appreciate their talent and would never short change but in the moment I always despise all things Cowboys. I can’t really explain it except to say I’ve always been surrounded by Cowboy fans and they seemed a little too braggadocious when they were winning and they won a lot. lol
They’re the only Team I’ve disliked for decades in any sport. Hell I root for the Celtics now and I bleed purple and gold in the 80’s with my all-time favorite Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Strange thing is I kind of liked Tom Landry. I watched his Show every Sunday morning. Cowboy hate is a strange dynamic for me. The only thing that comes close at present is my dislike for LeBron James. :)
I appreciatRe your honesty, Tony P. Some Cowboys haters try to deny it, especially in HoF discussions.
Why would anyone hate LeBron James? Guy has carried entire teams into playoffs and finals while giving 10s millions to education causes. Works as hard at his game as anyone and leaves it all on the court. Top 5 player of all time. I was not too thrilled by the whole Decision stupidly but as a player and person he certainly is way above many other current and historical professional athletes
I don’t think one should “hate” anyone but I have no respect for Lebron James as a man. He’s a juvenile moron who held a press conference to call Phil Jackson a racist because he used the word “posse”. I repeat. He held a press conference to call Phil Jackson a RACIST because he used the word “posse”. That and James has said lots of other dumb political/racial crap over the years, in addition to being obnoxious in other ways. The most charitable explanation is that he’s been pampered most of his life and is somewhat detached from reality.
Hate is too strong a word for any of this stuff. I should try not to use but you do hear it a lot in sports for example talking Eagles and Cowboys rivalry. lol
Actually it’s more of regarding someone or a Team as the villain or villainous versus the good guys or “white hats”. Who we pick is different for every fan. And as a fan I just don’t like LeBron James’s style. Lots of little reasons that all add up not saying he’s an awful person I just won’t root for him and love to root against him. lol Same way I’ve always been a Jack and Phil guy and don’t like Tiger although he seems a little more humble now days which I like. Still I like to root against him. :)
It’s a case where once a villain, the more they win the the bigger the villain becomes especially if they beat your favorites. That’s how that works. lol
Ya, what you said Rasputin! lol I was trying to be too kind. :)
I tend to dislike players who make it all about them, throw teammates under the bus, blame everyone else except themselves when something goes bad, and cheap shot artists. Even if they play hard and help team win the other attitudes and behaviors make me turn against them. Some examples include TO, Deion, Warren Sapp. Players like Tom Brady are not my favs but can respect his game and success including focus and work ethic
May be reasons to not like Tiger and LeBron, but hard to not appreciate the drive to succeed and work ethic , plus great achievements, even if they may not be the most personable or fan friendly. I can also appreciate that unlike many other players they both give a significant amount of time and money to good causes
It’s easy to for multi-millionaires to donate to charity (that’s sometimes even arranged by their PR agents), but I appreciate whatever good his donations to legitimate causes have done and I respect his athletic talent and greatness as a basketball player. I don’t respect his integrity, intelligence, or maturity. Hopefully one or both of the former improve if the latter does over time, but that’s not a given.
I generally don’t tend to look to top professional athletes (who have lived a very sheltered life with special treatment and attention) for their integrity, intelligence or maturity. Especially in this age when they are given a special status often as young children. It’s rare to find any superstar who might have those attributes and more often to be disappointed in them and expect too much from someone who spent a life only being very good at playing a game.
True. but some are worse than others.
Ugh!! James in another Final, it’s like Brady in another SB. It’s good for the fans of those guys but not for the sport IMO.
We need some new Teams winning the SB in the NFL. Not an Eagles fan at all but seeing them win the SB was pretty cool for the NFL IMO.
My sentimental hope, all though a real long shot now, is that Kansas City wins a Super Bowl for Andy Reid. IMO that would guarentee him a HOF spot. Maybe just another appearance?
Wins 183 Losses 120 1 .604 Playoff games 24 Wins 11 Losses 13 .458
Only two losing seasons out of 19.
Correction three losing seasons.
Better said Reid has had twelve 10 plus win seasons.
I think George Allen, Bud Grant and Marv Levy are the only non-SB winning HC’s in the HOF. ???
IMO Chuck Knox, Bill Cowher, Tom Coughlin and Mike Holmgren are deserving for HOF and a good amount consideration needs to be given for Marty Schottenheimer, Dan Reeves, Don Coryell and George Seifert.
Until coaches are moved into the contributors category none of those will ever even have a chance for election
agreed on the contributor part paul
Please explain, are the HC’s now taking a player’s spot?
Tony P, yes as it now stands coaches are considered along with the modern player candidates, they would fill slots in the 25 semifinalist list, and then if receive enough votes advance onto the final 15. So yes, every coach who advances along that voting sequence is taking a slot from a modern player. This is an issue many voters have complained about as they are unwilling (especially when it gets to the final 15) to advance a coach over a player. The only current reasonable solution-also one advocated by many voters-is to simply move coaches into the contributors slot (perhaps rename to coaches and contributors). If we assume moving past 2020 that contributors still have at least one annual slot, that would give all the serious candidates including owners, GMS, scouts etc. and coaches a decent change at election. After nominating 6 contributors (actually having 5 elected) from 2015-2018, and with 2 slots available for 2020 – last year of the current five year seniors/contributors rotation – the PFHOF Board will be looking at new selection rules for 2020 and beyond, adding coaches to contributors is one very likely change for future.
Thanks Paul, I’m surprised they’ve haven’t changed yet. I hope it changes soon. I suppose they could treat the contributors in the same way like the Senior Selections? Do you know if they have to select 1 Senior every year or could they possibly select none one year? Can’t imagine that happening.
The current five year period of alternating between 1/2 seniors and 1/2 contributors ends with 2019 (2 contributors, 1 seniors). Will have to wait and see what PFHOF Board decides to do with its election rules for 2020 and beyond. Its always possible the seniors or contributors committee could decide not to nominate one (or the full allocation), but highly unlikely since those committees are populated by PFHOF voters who strongly advocated for these categories. Of course even once nominated, possible the full voting committee could chose not to elect a senior or contributor-that has happened on occasion. I would guess after 2019, we may see special elections in 2020 for NFL 100th anniversary-perhaps a one time large seniors class (8-10?), and stating 2021 my prediction would be 5 modern slots, 2 seniors and 1 contributor going forward with strong possibility of revised coaches and contributors category since it appears to have strong support from the voters.
So what HC who hasn’t won a SB would you say is most deserving? I’m thinking Chuck Knox (died this month) who had success with 3 teams without out much of a QB unless you count Dave Krieg who actually had great career stats . Is Krieg a HOF candidate? I always remember him being a fumbler just like Roman Gabriel.
Don Coryell
Both Coryell and Knox are HOF worthy IMO.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/obituaries/chuck-knox.html
W hat about Jeff Fischer? Haha just kidding! :)
As far as most deserving of all I have to think Bill Cowher is high on the list with mostly no-name QB’s and a 149-90 and 12-9 record with two SB appearances and one win.
Jimmy Johnson is out there too! Anyone think he should of been inducted before Jerry Jones? Or maybe not at all? I would never go so far as to say he isn’t deserving but his detractors might because he had the fortune of coaching so much talent that even Barry could coach to a SB win. Note it was Jimmy’s genius to get that talent.. lol If he could of co-existed with Jones maybe they have Kraft – Belichek success? Just wasn’t in the cards for Cowboy’s future.
Even worse cards were dealt to Miami Dolphins future, at least you had the glorious 90’s. LOL We never could get past Buffalo and San Diego under Shula and only won Wild card games. And than there’s Jimmy and Dan’s last game which will live in Dolphins Playoff infamy forever losing 7-62 to Jacksonville.
Who knew the Dave Wannstedt years would be the high point of the last 20 years. lol He was a pretty good HC but if you can’t get a good QB for over 20 years it’s tough to win in the Playoffs. Great Dolphin defenses were wasted in the early 2000’s!! Thinking of that. when will Zach Thomas be a HOFer?
I meant to say Jimmy Johnson only won Wild Card games with an aging Marino before the sour end. If I remember right, Marino threw two ducks out to the flat that intercepted and returned for TD’s. It could be the worst butt whipping in modern day Playoff football? lol
Jimmy J has been a finalist in the recent past, and I am guessing will be again soon, so along with Coryell, appear to be the next two coaches to be elected. But getting them elected (over modern players) will remain an issue given quality of modern players in final 15 into the foreseeable, likely to take some time to even just get those two coaches elected let alone any others deserving. Creating a combined coaches/contributors slot would seem to me as the only real solution.
Since he had to complete against players, hard to say Jimmy should have made it before Jerry since Jones only had to complete against other contributors in a different process (involving only 5 committee members) and a much smaller pool of candidates. So I do not see Jimmy vs Jerry as a direct competition for election since they do not go head to head for a slot. And yes I think building and coaching the 90s dynasty makes Jimmy J a deserving PFHOF selection, which I suspect will happen eventually.
I think the best coach to not win a SB was Marty Schottenheimer. I would put him right up there with Coryall. Jim Mora was pretty good as well.
If we’re considering non-Super Bowl winning coaches not in the HoF, am thinking one could make the best case for Dan Reeves, who got to four of them without a victory. He also has a long career with a 190-165-2 W-L record. Of eligible coaches, only Marty Schottenheimer has more wins (200-126-1), though he never made the SB. Chuck Knox also never coached in a SB and has a lifetime record of 186-147-1.
The issue with Jimmy Johnson and the HoF of course is his short career (80-64-0) and tepid record after leaving Dallas. Winning three SBs and being his own successful GM helps his argument, though. I’m currently on the fence with his candidacy, okay if he gets in, not consider8ng it a travesty of justice if he doesn’t.
I agree, Jimmy deserves to be in the HOF. I’m thinking his career is comparable to Marv Levy (minus Levy winning SB’s)?. I say Levy because I think many folks think Jimmy may of gone to 4 straight SB’s too and could of even won 3 or 4 straight SB’s if he stayed. I guess Mike Shanahan would be the more obvious comparison.
Bachslunch, I might have one foot up on the fence on Johnson. lol He won two SB’s not three. That’s the thing I thought detractors might bring up saying look even Barry Switzer a College HC could led that Team to a NFC championship Game and a SB win. I’m personally more impressed with Jimmy’s formation of the Team and the habits his players carried over from his leadership despite the undisciplined Switzer’s leadership.
I thought Marty Schottenheimer was a hell of a HC with bad luck because his players couldn’t get it done in the biggest moments of the Playoffs. If only Earnest Byner held onto the ball. Or a few Kickers made some clutch FGs. He wore his heart on his sleeve much like Bill Cowher and his players played really hard for him. He definitely belongs in the HOF sooner rather than later!!
Apparently no final decision has been made by the PFHOF Board but at this point does not seem to be interest in one time special expansion of senior candidates for 100th anniversary of NFL in 2020-picked this up on social media from a sports reporter who is not voter but has inside connection to PFHOF
Apparently there are currently no plans to have special expanded seniors class in 2020 for 100th anniversary of NFL
TO is skipping Canton induction.
IMO, that’s not right and only gives credence to why his entrance was delayed. Lots of players have waited too long and this move seems disrespectful to the humility they all were able to show when the Hall of Fame came calling. I don’t think Owens is very smart. Does anyone remember a player dissing the HOF and fans like this?
Not a total surprise given his lack of attendance at PFHOF events and activities since his election, thinking PFHOF will take the high road and given him all the same honor and recognition deserving of all those elected, feel bad for others elected who will have this public and media attention over their special time and for his fans who already spend $100s to attend
I totally agree Paul!! Except call me naive but I’m surprised and disappointed because I was really ready to turn the page on TO and have a better opinion of him after this Ceremony. I don’t know who he thinks he’s punishing? Man he gave a lot to football but he got a lot too. If he wanted more he should of changed his behavior. I don’t get it. Is he trying to prove he REALLY doesn’t care what people think of him? It’s really a contradiction from the look at me way he approached his career. If he thinks his career will be celebrated in the same way by not showing he’s wrong. A missed opportunity maybe he changes his mind?
I wasn’t sure but I just heard TO will be the only physically able inductee to ever skip his own ceremony. And the sad thing is I fear many of his peers will makes excuses why it’s Ok for him.
If you read his press release carefully makes one suspect PFHOF would not pay him an appearance fee so he is going to set up his own paid ticketed event-just wait and watch
Not so sure his peers really care, especially PHOFers including his classmates, but on some media some of his fans and supporters are backing his “give it to PFHOF and the voters”
At least TO has found yet another way to stand out, LOL. And the ceremony will be shorter to sit through.
TO said he paid Canton a visit and decided he could find a better place to celebrate. Haha. Was it about money? LOL If I was the HOF I’d show a video and that’s it, no live feed or bust reveal. Why should they make an exception for the king of divas?
I think it’s about money and I hope PFHOF takes the higher road and treats his induction same as all the others
I suppose so, I just hope it’s not going to set a precedent for other guys to follow who feel salty about when they were picked. If it’s about money is that better? I don’t think so. lol
I don’t think TO will set any new trend since many deserving candidates have had to wait years yet they always attended to receive the honor. For TO everything has always been about TO, he never got the bigger picture on everything. Agreed wanting money to appear is not any better but I have my suspicions that it will be the case since he only made this decision after his first and only visit to PFHOF for his event planning meeting. I think it was only then he realized he would not be getting paid and decided to go ahead and organize his own event and charge fans to attend-just wait and see
Wow, Shannon Sharpe is really ticked off at TO. Mike Ditka had to wait 12 years. I bet he won’t be diplomatic. lol Can’t wait to hear from Cris Carter who felt slighted too and waited twice as long as TO. It’s always the Receivers crying the loudest just like in the game. lol Nope, the HOFers aren’t going to receive this well. What a boneheaded decision.
I was wrong that many people would excuse him. I was thinking mostly about many young players who value voicing themselves over doing the appropriate thing by standing for the flag. Just my opinion not try to start a new debate. :)
Ok I’m done with this topic but it’s only starting for the media. lol
Chris Carter went on a public rant yesterday about this, perhaps I am wrong but I have yet to see supportive or understanding comments from any current PFHOFers. Guessing many, including his PFHOF classmates. will prefer to not comment publicly which is their right (and you can be sure they will be asked about this repeatedly including during the August events). But I certainly would not take their silence as endorsement of his decision. TO is also getting mostly trashed on social media-except by a minority who feel he has every right not to attend or support his effort to get back at the PFHOF or voters-although TO has been careful enough to not make that intention stated.
I think current players and current/future PFHOFers mostly appreciate the honor of the election and also are not big supporters of TO to begin with-always seemed to me that he never had feel supporters in the league including teammates and other players to begin with. Not surprised that none are rallying to his side which makes me believe he is not starting a wide spread movement against the PFHOF, voters and the process, even though many are frustrated at the delays in their deserving election.
The whole situation pisses me off because many people including voters, fans and PFHOF members supported his election and were truly upset that he had not been elected (and TO spent plenty of social and mainstream media time bashing the voting), and encouraged his election, then welcomed it this year. Yet here is TO still not happy. Meanwhile we all know of other deserving modern candidates on the semi-finalist and finalist lists with TO who would have loved to be elected and receive the honor, and here they remain while TO would even accept it.
It also annoys me because after reading his press release (where he basically dissed “Canton”) it become immediately clear to me that his issue-not raised in last several months-came over money, as is the main reason why he prefers to organize his own event for which he will most certainly charge a fee for fans to attend-just watch and wait for. Frankly if that is how he feels, fine but don’t hide the intent or trash the hard working staff and 5000 volunteers who by all accounts put together a great event for the PFHOFers.
I too am done with this and done with TO. There are simply more worthwhile PFHOF debates and discussions to have, including reforming the voting process, getting more seniors elected, and advocating for deserving candidates to be elected in the coming years. TO can take a flying leap off a cliff as far as I am concerned!
Well said Paul!
Sorry I can’t resist, “the King” “chosen one” greatest ever LeBron James shows up minutes after his embarrassing Game 4 sweep with soft cast on hand and describes bone bruise as playing with a broke hand since end of Game One. lol Couldn’t go one more 10 minute media session without it. lmao They’d laugh at him if he was in the NFL. :) This is why people don’t root for the man. Always drama, look at what I did. The greatest players don’t need to toot their own horn. Never a more talented player than LeBron but never one needing more attention. and boy does he get it.
With the current modern players – recent finalists – yet elected and the upcoming 1st ballot candidates over next five years, who do you will experience the longest delay for election that would be seen as controversial (the length of wait NOT the player themselves!).
For the record Lebron isn’t the GOAT. Jordan was better. Some other guys may have been too.
Probably have to be a WR like Anquan Boldin or Calvin Johnson. lol I don’t think Boldin is a lock.
I hope they don’t keep Hines Ward out for much longer. He’s a player where the stats and accolades don’t tell the whole story. His toughness was impactful.
John Lynch shouldn’t have to wait any longer IMO and fans of Tony Boselli will be very disappointed if he doesn’t make it in soon. I can see Edgerrin James falling down the list. And of course I don’t think Dwight Freeney will go in as quick as some might but I could be wrong. :).
If Adrian Peterson doesn’t make it in is first year that would be talked about a lot.
When I posted the question I really had not thought of my answer but I would agree that Peterson would be a surprise to many, not sure how he or his supporters would react but it certainly would be controversial. Also agree that Lynch is most deserving. Calvin will an interesting debate but if TD has to wait I see no reason why Calvin should be quicker.
Do you guys think Edgerrin James gets in in the next couple years? Is there a better RB to consider at present? He has a 134 AV and Corey Dillon is only in the 90’s which is surprising. Has Dillon ever made the 25 list?
Rasputin, I guess it depends on how we define GOAT. Most impressive career 6-0 with 6 Final’s MVP’s is Michael Jordan. The most unstoppable completely skilled player I put LeBron at the top. He’s a freak of nature. Shaq and Wilt were the other unstoppable players.
To win a NBA Championship, all things the same with no stars but above average players I’ll take MJ every time. Than Kobe, LeBron, Bird and Magic are in the mix. I like winners with killer mentalities who can make their free throws in the clutch.
I think 2019 is going to be really tight with 3 very likely 1st time elections (TonyG, Reed and Champ) and 2 of four OL from 2018 final 10 likely next in line-3 OL have been waiting a few years and are next in line. But when I look at 2020-2022, I only see 1 or 2 likely 1st time elections each year so the current remaining 10 finalists from 2018 are going to get into those slots, including Law, Lynch, James, remaining OL, Bruce and 1-2 of the coaches as 2020-2022 could have up to a total of 11 open modern slots. 2020-2022 having many fewer likely 1st ballot elections compared to 2019 and previous 3 elections have had.
Most Likely 1st ballot elections (other future PFHOFers will be added to these ballots, but unlikely 1st ballot selections):
2020: Troy Polamalu
2021: Peyton Manning, Charles Woodson
2022: Demarcus Ware
Points/Game
MIchael Jordan – 30.12 (1st)
Lebron James – 27.15 (4th)
Scoring Championships
MIchael Jordan – 10
Lebron James – 1
1st Team All Defensive Teams
Michael Jordan – 9
Lebron James – 6
Steals/Game
Michael Jordan – 5.3
Lebron James – 1.6
Yearly Awards
Michael Jordan – Defensive Player of the Year, 5 NBA MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, Rookie of the Year
Lebron James – 4 NBA MVPs, 3 Finals MVPs, Rookie of the Year
NBA Titles
Michael Jordan – 6
Lebron James – 3
The facts make it easy to argue that Jordan was better on offense and defense than Lebron, which comports with my eyeball test. I had someone tell me about Lebron that he doesn’t remember ever seeing anyone just automatically get whatever team he’s playing for to the NBA finals year after year like this. But Jordan automatically won his team championships year after year. Michael Jordan was more unstoppable and better overall.
Meant 2.3 steals/game for Jordan, which is still significantly higher.
Also meant only 5 first team All Defensive Teams for Lebron James to Jordan’s 9.
I think when considering GOAT in any professional sports, even team sports, the debate has to start and end with number of championships if for the sole reason that the aim of the game is to WIN. What Lebron has done in his career is impressive-getting several less than ideal teams to the finals-and for that he is to be commended for. But the all time NBA GOAT has to be Jordan. While making it into the top 5 of all time-where Lebron currently resides – is still a very impressive achievement given the rich history of great NBA players.
Michael at his best was better than LeBron IMO. He was better both offensively and defensively. However if you look at career averages it looks like pretty much of a wash to me. Accolades is Jordan now but the one I care about most is Finals 6-0 with 6 MVP’s. and never a game 7. Jordan will never be surpassed.
To show you how dug in old school I am I won’t give it up for Tom Brady being the GOAT like everyone does. I still think Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas are in the mix and I would favor Montana.
I agree that Montana and maybe some others were better than Brady at their best. I don’t know that I’ve seen this type of longevity and sustained excellence though. A lot of that is a function of better medical care and rules protecting and benefiting QBs more than ever, but Brady is an extreme example of quality longevity even for this era.
It’s the old question is it Brady or Belichick ? Early on I think it was more Belichick. Especially the first SB win. :) It was the second greatest upset in SB history. Quit a feat! But Brady was damn lucky to get by the Raiders (better team) in the “tuck rule game”. He did just enough to win. He was a young guy learning his way. He made a clutch 1st Down and short drive at the end of the SB which showed the type of player he would be. Vinaterri was the key in those big early year wins.
Montana was just the opposite. It was all about the Montana “magic” in San Fran’s first SB winning season. Also Montana and the Niners had a much tougher road to get to their 4 SB’s in the decade of the Bears. Redskins and Giants.
I personally think that 1984 Team who beat my Dolphins in the SB was a top 10 team of all-time. Curious if we think the Patriots 2007 16-0 team can be top 10 while losing to Eli’s Giants in SB? Does not closing the deal make a difference?
Doesn’t it seem like if Floyd Little can be in the HOF than they could find room for Otis Taylor? Is that man being slighted simply because he’s a Chief?
Never understood why Little was seen as a worthy PFHOFer as a senior candidate-was it to appease the Broncos fans? At the time of his selection many all decade team members were more deserving-many are still in the pool waiting! I think Taylor suffered for many years under the anti AFL bias held by some voters, and now wondering if with election of teammate Emmitt Thomas and strong push for Robinson that his case has been set aside.
I wonder why Taylor didn’t make PB in 1967? I know I bang on Little around here, I hope people know it’s not because I think he wasn’t a really good player. Like you say Paul, it just seems like trying to put a square peg in a round hole when you try to explain why he’s in the HOF and some others aren’t. I mean only (1)1,000 yd rushing season and now we we have RB’s with several and they probably won’t get a sniff at the HOF. I always thought 1,000 yards was the gold standard back than. It’s like lowering the bar. Maybe I’m missing something? Was he Gale Sayers good? His career avg. carry wouldn’t indicate that. With Little being in they better put Don Perkins, Larry Brown, Lawrence McCutcheon, and Chuck Foreman in too.
Not sure any player compares to the unique (and high quality) career that Gale Sayers had. First five years made 1st team All Pro and was a true two position threat at RB and KR. Led the NFL in rushing two seasons, plus two seasons led NFL in KR average and TDs (still holds career record for KR average). Has any other KR/PR in NFL history also had career with multiple season leaders in rushing yards or receiving yards/receptions?
What Paul, now you’re in love with the guy. lol :) Only led NFL one season 1971 his only 1,000 yd season. He did carry the ball more than anyone in the League with a 4.0 avg. Csonka had only 80 less yards in almost a hundred fewer carries. Leading doesn’t always mean the best. Who really cares about KR’s and his stats don’t look all that impressive to me. He only did full time returning for his first two years and his last. He returned 7 kicks to lead League in ’71. He never returned one for a TD. I’m more impressed with his PR’s. He had a very good career avg. with 11.0 yds and a couple TD’s still not great but very good
Floyd Little was a bright spot playing for a bunch of crappy teams in Denver. For that, we’re suppose to put a yellow jacket on him? Little was a good little player in a fairly down time for great RB’s. From the end of Jim Brown in 1965 to the emergence of the Juice in 1972 there was the greatness of Gale Sayers and Leroy Kelly and than a bunch of good but not great RB’s. Little’s a HOFer now and no one can take away but come on man!
I hate tearing down a great man. I think you baited me. lol See what you made me do. :)
OK Paul, I have egg all over me!!! LMAO. I apologize, I thought you were talking about Floyd Little after you mentioned he couldn’t compare to Sayers. I baited myself and it probably won’t be the last time. lol I should of known you weren’t going to make glaring errors in your stats. :)
It’s really tough for me to pick only one GOAT QB, so I narrow it down to six: Joe Montana, Otto Graham, John Unitas, Sammy Baugh, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady. Sorry, not going to whittle it down further that this.
And agreed that Floyd Little is a terrible HoF choice. For me, it’s between him and Paul Hornung for the dubious title of worst HoF running back.
I agree it’s too hard to pick just one especially the way the game has evolved. I wouldn’t be inclined to include Sammy Baugh but if I did I’d add Sid Luckman too.
I’d include 3-time MVP Brett Favre with his 508 TD’s and 71,000 yds and 3 AP’s/11 PB appearances including at ages 38.39 and 40. I know he wasn’t the most cerebral QB but he was a great QB.
What about 5-time Grey Cup winning QB Warren Moon who didn’t arrive in the NFL until age 28 but still made 9 PB’s? Too bad he didn’t start in the NFL. What if he would of went to Bill Walsh’s 49ers?
Ask yourself, who would John Madden pick? LOL
Considering overall talent, could Aaron Rodgers and Steve Young squeeze into the conversation? I would add these guys to Favre because if you include Peyton Manning and Sammy Baugh it’s not all about Championship legacy. It’s too hard for me to ignore these guys in their prime years. I would be happy with any of them leading my Team if I needed to win.
If you start squeezing Rodgers and Young into the discussion you are no longer talking GOAT QB, but starting to put together a top ten of all time list.
Folks there are only 2 (maybe 3) QBs in the entire history of NFL even worthy of consideration for GOAT: Brady, Montana and Unitas, There.is.no.debate. End.of.story.
I get your point Paul but than is there no room for winner and star player every year like Otto Graham? Not sure a QB in his time could do anymore. If it’s mostly about legacy, I’d add him to put 4 QB’s in the discussion.
blob:https://www.youtube.com/9bdd7eb8-a0be-4b9d-88da-f6851381bd43
My top 10 QB’s since WWII. Football was too different then to include Luckman, Baugh and Herber.
1. Brady
2. Montana
3. Unitas
4. Manning
5. Marino
6. Elway
7. Graham
8. Favre
9. Staubach
10 Starr
My list looks a lot different. LOL That’s how 10 Ten QB lists go. :) They all are so different.
l love my guy Dan Marino but Favre was better. Aaron Rodgers is better too. I can’t ignore that Dan never won anything. My opinion of Elway is lower too. As entertaining as Roger the Dodger was he wouldn’t make my list. And a lot of people would take exception to having him above Terry Bradshaw’s 4 SB’s. lol
For me Brady, Montana, Graham and Unitas are 1A based on Legacy which is the most important criteria for me than I go combination with an emphasis on talent.
5. Peyton Manning,
6.. Brett Favre
7. Aaron Rodgers
8. John Elway
9. Dan Marino
10. Steve Young
Favre and Rodgers will likely change positions as Rodgers’ numbers grow. Elway was always behind Marino until he got lucky with a running game and to his credit made the most of it. Marino is is above Young striclty based on his legend.
11. Roger Staubach
12. Terry Bradshaw
13. Drew Brees
14. Fran Tarkington
15. Sonny Jurgenson
16. Kurt Warner
17. Dan Fouts
18. Warren Moon
18. Len Dawson
20. Bob Griese
21. Bart Starr
22. Troy Aikman
23. Ben Rothlisberger
24. Joe Namath
25. Ken Stabler
Donavan McNabb, Phillip Rivers
Tear it up guys! lol
I did put some thought and research into this. Kurt Warner was really tough to place because his success was short but exceptional. Of course has anyone had greater weapons than the greatest show on turf? What he did making the Cardinals relevant was impressive. Hey maybe he makes a comeback. lol Sonny Jurgenson is another interesting consideration that gets forgot about a little in the time of Johnny U, Bart Starr and Joe Willy. I think he threw one of the best balls in any time. And I know record setter Fran Tarkington gets forgotten about in the QB greats discussions and he’ll tell you. lol
I probably should of included YA Title in there somewhere. I had him in and took him out.
Won’t anyone criticize my list? LOL !!
This is even more subjective than usual because QB greatness is less defined by Pro Bowl style accolades than other positions. Stats weigh heavily but aren’t clear cut due to football’s basic nature (which stats and weighed how?) and both championships and intangibles count more with QBs than any other position.
People may assume I’m just being a Cowboys fan here but I’d have both Staubach and Aikman in my top 5. Aikman because he’s the most accurate passer in NFL history and that says a lot, with loads of toughness and intelligence and a gun for an arm to boot. Staubach retired with the best career passer rating in NFL history which, combined with his great mobility and off the charts intangibles, should at least earn him serious consideration for a top 5 list.
Both men also consistently did well on the biggest stage in the biggest moments. I’m not just being a fan. After watching Aikman routinely outduel and outperform guys like Brett Favre, Steve Young, Dan Marino, John Elway, and Jim Kelly, who all played in more stat friendly systems, I really would feel better with him as my QB over any of those guys in some kind of all time competition. And if you care about championships you’ve got 8 NFC Championships and 5 SB titles between Staubach and Aikman.
I don’t think you’d go wrong with either.
The rest of my list would include Montana, Manning (you know which one, LOL), Unitas, and Baugh in no particular order. And yes I know that adds up to 6 but I’ve got Manning and Unitas basically tied at this point. I don’t rank active players on lists like these because their legacies are still in flux, so no Brady, Brees, or Rodgers. I’d have Otto Graham, Sid Luckman, and Steve Young just on the outside. I don’t count Graham’s AAFC years (at least not on par), Young was a West Coast system guy handed the keys to a fully loaded Ferrari, and I give Baugh a slight edge over Luckman. Perhaps the most impressive thing about Baugh’s passing stats is that he led the NFL in completion percentage an incredible 8 years. He wasn’t exactly a dump off QB either, leading the league in yards/attempt 3 seasons. Luckman threw more bombs, but Baugh threw significantly more often than Luckman and posted a much higher completion percentage. Luckman ended up with a slightly higher career passer rating but Baugh posted the best passer rating season between them, an amazing 109.9 in 1945 (the NFL average that year was 47.6), and the slight career difference is mostly due to Baugh playing a little longer and throwing a lot of passes even on the downside of his career, while Luckman tailed off so his down years didn’t count as much against him. It’s very close but I give a slight edge to Slinging Sammy.
Luckman won 4 titles to Baugh’s 2, but Luckman’s, especially the first 2, were as much system wins as there have ever been. Sid Luckman was technically the first great modern QB because he was the first true modern QB. Baugh predated him a couple of years and was the first great passer but he played tailback his first few years. In those days the NFL mostly used the single wing formation, where the tailback received a shotgun-like snap and did the feature running and most of whatever passing occurred. It was basically what people now call the “wildcat”. The “quarterback” was just a blocking back. The Bears introduced the T formation in 1940 where the “quarterback” received the snap, usually under center, and typically handed it off to a running back or kept it to do most of the passing. This called for the quarterback to be a quick, smart player and the team’s best passer, creating the modern version of the position.
In the 1940 regular season Baugh’s Redskins had beaten Luckman’s Chicago. The Bears unveiled the T formation in the championship game, not during the season, and throttled Washington 73-0, an NFL record that still stands. Needless to say the rest of the NFL quickly embraced the T formation. Some guys like Baugh went from being called a “tailback” to a “quarterback” while mostly still doing the same stuff he had been, though things around him changed. But the Bears had a head start. They repeated as champions in 1941, their first full season in the formation, and appeared in the title games the two years that followed, winning one. The Redskins got a measure of payback in beating Chicago in the 42 championship game.
Baugh’s other championship came in his rookie season of 1937 and he was very much the leader of that team. In his first season Baugh led the NFL in passing yards and made first team All Pro. He didn’t need a radical new system to do it either. Again, it’s very close but I give a slight edge to Baugh.
Thanks for the feedback Rasputin. Very interesting insight into Baugh and Luckman. I thought Baugh might be viewed slightly higher because he was a more prolific passer but thought for the time if you included one you’d have to considered the other. My list does go beyond the end of WWII.
I can’t put Aikman that high. I could put him slightly higher though. He was perfect for his Team and was accurate although Steve Young and Brett Favre were more accurate over their careers. My problem is Aikman , he never asked to carry the load like many other QB’s. It’s not his fault that he had one of the best OL’s ever, a HOF WR, HOF RB, terrific TE and FB. Offensive talent wise the Cowboys may be the one team that could surpass the St. Louis Rams. The Cowboys just had a more conservative philosophy. It’s just my opinion, but I don’t think Aikman would of had nearly the success if he had to carry the load. That’s why I have Aikman so close to Bart Starr. And I have to put the accolades into the equation for comparison. Bob Griese was in the same position with great talent everywhere but he was able to prove he could succeed without so much support.
I watched Roger Staubach a lot growing up. I’ll give you he was narrowly the best QB of the 70’s. But I can’t put him higher than 11 which i think is pretty high praise with so many great passers of the ball. Also he never got to call his own plays like a Bob Griese. When it comes to shear guts and determination Roger might be top 5.
,
Bob Griese was strong on accolades and I recently defended him in arguments on other sites with people who tried to dismiss him as an overrated “game manager” who doesn’t belong in the HoF. I agree that Griese did show his greatness as a passer at times. But Aikman carried more of the load than Griese did, LOL. The Cowboys were balanced, pretty close to 50/50, while the Dolphins were more like 2 thirds running, and Griese consistently had a great defense. Griese was out for most the undefeated season but they clearly didn’t lose much with Earl Morrall. Also, aside from Aikman’s spectacular playoff performances, even their regular season play heavily relied on his ability. Dallas typically passed early to get down into the red zone quickly where they fed it to Emmitt to score TDs. Once they built an early lead they transitioned to feeding Emmitt between the 20s too. This combination led to Aikman’s stats greatly understating how vital he was to the dynasty. But, like Griese, there were times when he was unleashed to do more and got the opportunity to rack up some big numbers, especially on a day when the running game just wasn’t working. Go watch the 1992 game at Denver, for example (or at least the game winning drive which may still be on youtube, and was almost all Aikman passing), or the close 1990 win at LA when the running game had had been largely stymied but Troy lit it up that turned the Cowboys’ season around and launched a 4 game winning streak that almost got them to the playoffs and set things up for that next step in 91, along with other games. Of course sometimes he’d have to pass a bunch too even when Emmitt was having a good day, like the classic comeback shootout against Washington in the 1999 opener that Dallas won when Aikman hit Rocket with a 76 yard bomb in overtime. I think Aikman would have flourished statistically in a system like Favre’s or Young’s.
And to be clear by “most accurate” passer in NFL history I’m talking about physically throwing the ball, not completion percentage. The latter is a stat dependent on a number of factors, some out of the QB’s control, though Aikman did have one of the best career completion percentages in NFL history when he retired and I think still owns the career SB completion percentage record.
Aikman was more accurate than Favre, Young, and those other guys. I could tell by watching. You could even see it in off beat stuff like the contests David Letterman used to have the SB champion QB do like throwing the ball through a moving cab’s window. Aikman nailed stuff like that on the first try almost like an android. Favre, Young, Elway, and others missed throw after throw. I also think Aikman set some records in the accuracy Pro Bowl competitions they used to have.
All of these QB’s are HOFers and had many shining moments. And Dallas in the 90’s was an all-time great team. I like your passion for your Team’s HOF leader. :)
Bob Griese was a great passer who didn’t show it as much during their SB years. I think it showed real greatness to keep his ego in check . I’m sure Shula had an influence on that! LOL When I say he proved he could carry a Team I was talking about after 1973 when he had to pass more. Bob was considered the smartest QB at reading defenses and the most accurate in his time. Yes, he did manage a game well with his play calling but to say he only was a “game manager” is laughable. His 6 TD’s passes on Thanksgiving Day wearing his famed eye glasses vs. the Cardinals proved his skill passing the ball. I believe it tied the record. Like Aikman the stats don’t totally reflect the accuracy. There are 30 QB’s ahead of Aikman for career pass % but I would concur he was one of the most accurate. His throws over the middle to Jay Novacek were deadly to an opponent.
Thinking of the QB’s who were good ones in the 70’s many seem to have a longer learning curve than today’s good ones. Is that correct and if so is it because playing QB was more difficult back than? One one hand I would think playing QB is more complex today but on the other hand it was was physically more difficult for both QB and WR’s back in the day. The passes tended to be longer in the 70’s. I think that caused the INT rate to be higher. I’m sure it’s more complicated than that but that’s my theory. lol I blame Bill Walsh’s West Coast Offense for the start of all these short passes. It changed the game forever.
Defenses were more formidable back then in part because the rules were different. Landry preferred that a QB serve as a backup for a few years before assuming the full time starting role. It’s a little easier for a rookie QB to do at least alright in today’s game. Then there’s the pressure from the salary cap. Franchises can’t just stock up multiple blue chip QBs and groom them for years. There’s more push for immediate results from high draft picks and teams want to know if they’ve got a franchise QB before their rookie contract is up.
As for the “30 QB’s ahead of Aikman” in completion percentage, that just shows big stat inflation. If you look more closely you’ll see virtually all those guys played in the 21st Century. In 1999, his last full season, only 2 qualifiers ranked higher than Aikman: Joe Montana and Steve Young, both products of the high percentage West Coast system. That’s despite Aikman having been drafted by the worst team in the league and immediately thrown to the wolves in the NFL’s strongest, most brutal division. The pounding he took those first couple of seasons likely shortened his career, which saw him struggling with chronic knee and back problems in the late 90s even as his team eroded rapidly around him. And again, accuracy and completion percentage aren’t precisely the same thing anyway.
Don’t forget concussions ! That factored heavily into both Steve Young and Aikman’s decision to retire.
Maybe if Troy had the quick release of Dan Marino he wouldn’t of gotten killed so much? lol Sorry that’s me being a smart aleck . :) I do think it saved Dan from a lot of bigger hits but he still had his share of getting hit on some not very good teams in the late 80’s. It’s ironic that Marino never missed a game for 10 years until he rolls out all by his lonesome and blows out an achilles tendon. That injury hurt him for the rest of his career although few noticed because Dan couldn’t run to begin with. lol Has anyone seen the perfectly skilled QB yet? if Brady could scramble like Joe Montana he would be pretty darn close to perfect.
What I remember during Troy’s run is him being criticized when compared to other great QB’s for having a slower release and not throwing the deep ball as well. Maybe some of it was out of jealousy but I could see some of what they were saying especially the deep ball accuracy.
Fran Tarkington was criticized for not having a having a deep ball at all. lol They always questioned if he could throw it 50 yards. lol It doesn’t matter if you’re a great leader and do enough other things well. I’m sure Dan Marino would sacrifice a little poorer arm skill for 3 SB wins, LOL
People talk about Tiger’s amazing comeback from spinal fusion and it is impressive but there’s another guy who made one in 1986 named Joe Montana that some forget. Probably all the ones who rush to crown Brady as the best ever. lol We all know what Joe did after this, only won two more SB’s and led the KC Chiefs to the Playoffs.
I took this from an article in the LA Times back than.
Montana, who is playing again after having surgery on a career-threatening back injury Sept. 15, is having a difficult time convincing people–mostly reporters–that he’s all right.
They want to believe Montana, but it isn’t that easy.
Now it’s one thing to have back surgery and one day resume an active career in your garden, but it’s another to come back and lead your team to a possible division title.
Just 56 days after an operation to repair a ruptured disk in his back, Montana returned to the starting lineup and led the 49ers to a 43-17 victory over the St. Louis Cardinals. In that game, Montana completed 13 of 19 passes for 270 yards and 3 touchdowns.
His return was hailed as a miracle in some circles. San Francisco has won four of six games since Montana’s return, and Friday night the 49ers can win the NFC West title if they defeat the Rams at Candlestick Park.
Ram Coach John Robinson speaks about Montana the same way he does about Marino.
The Rams tried to pressure Marino last Sunday in the hope that he would have to rush his passes. Marino rushed 29 of them to his receivers for 403 yards.
“Both defy the values relative to sacking them,” Robinson said of Montana and Marino.
In other words, they’re something special.
Aikman actually had a quick release and he threw gorgeous deep balls, including the aforementioned 76 yard winning bomb to Rocket Ismael or some of those long strikes to Alvin Harper early in the decade for example. He didn’t throw as many as some other QBs simply because of the system and type of plays they ran. They changed it and coordinators up sometimes (and Aikman showed versatility in successfully adapting to guys as different Norv Turner and Chan Gailey) but typically that decade Dallas ran a lot of fast developing timing routes. It wasn’t the Romo style offense where he drops back and stands there for a long time looking around for one of several deep receivers to throw to like a video game. Aikman’s skills, especially his precision, allowed the luxury of running plays where the ball could be delivered to a predetermined spot before the WR even made his break.
And yeah, Montana may always be on my top 5 list because I watched him do so many incredible things.
Rasputin, maybe you want to get in on the discussion these people are having over the QB List the ultimate Cowboy homer – Gil Brandt has made?
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000815754
At least he picked the talent of Brett Favre and Dan Marino over Aikman but I don’t agree with much else. Elway is too high IMO and I would never put Staubach over Unitas or Manning over Montana. Bradshaw, Tarkington and Brees are about where I put them. But come on man!! No Aaron Rodgers who I’m convinced is a top 5 talent of all-time. He can do it all and has a SB win. See what I mean about these lists being so different. LOL It’s too hard to come to any agreement when multiple criteria are considered. I forgot Jim Kelly on my list. He was pretty great. I’d actually put him right behind Bradshaw but ahead of Tarkington.
I don’t consider Brandt to be a Cowboys “homer” but at least he rightly put both Aikman and Staubach in the top 10 and Staubach in the top 6. I don’t post there because it’s FB only and I have no intention of signing up for FB, LOL.
Ya, I’ve sold my soul to FB. LOL!
Gil Brandt was with Dallas the entire time of Tom Landry. But I see he’s from cheesehead country. LOL
I saw those articles purportedly authored by Brandt. The lists on them were uniformly terrible.
There was some speculation at some websites that he didn’t actually pick the players on these lists, or that maybe he’s gotten too old to do player evaluation well anymore. No idea, myself.
Much as I think Brandt should be in the HoF, I don’t think these lists can be taken seriously.
Interesting, I see that he came out with his top 150 prospects before the draft. I kind of question at 85 that he’d even want to be that involved.
Bachs, I’d take your list serious. LOL! I tried to be as objective as possible with my QB list but it really does feel like you’re getting into the weeds. It was fun though.
Are there any QB’s we think are on the HOF bubble?
Is there anyone on this site who isn’t passionate about a current Team? I’m basically a man without a Team. I root for the Texans because of proximity to me but with the way football is changing and the non-sense going on, I’m not very enthusiastic, I LOVE talking about the past. :)
I try to avoid the NFL site unless I’m researching statistics or reading an article that popped up somewhere else.
Of the most recent HOF Semifinalists these people have made the list the most.
Steve Atwater – 7 times
Don Coryell – 10 times
Roger Craig – 10 times
Joe Jacoby – 8 times
Jimmy Johnson – 5 times
John Lynch – 6 times
Karl Mecklenburg – 7 times
Ty Law – 4 times
Kevin Mawae – 4 times
Edgerrin James – 4 times
Rank the probability of each one making the HOF within the next 10 years and maybe briefly discuss an argument for or against anyone of them.
Well, I’d say the chances of Craig and Jacoby making the HoF anytime in the next 10 years is nil. Both have run out of regular candidacy as of last time around. The former was a finalist only once, the latter 3 times.
Of the rest, I’d say Law, Mawae, and Lynch will make it in within the next 10 years, probably in descending order of likelihood. James will probably get in eventually, but maybe not within 10 years from now. Atwater’s window closes within 10 years, and he may or may not get in — my guess it’ll be close. Coryell may or may not make it in, but his chances improve if coaches get lumped in with the Contributors — not counting on it within the next 10 years, though. Not betting the rent on Johnson, and definitely not within the next 10 years. Mecklenburg probably is a non-starter and is nearly out of time as a regular candidate.
If Chuck Howley has to wait forever I don’t think Mecklenburg ever gets in all despite a 3/6. His Defenses got crushed in SB’s. And it was a fairly weak decade for AFC Defense especially compared to the NFC.
I’d like to think Roger Craig would get in within 10 years but probably not. Hopefully after because he was unique for the time. I think he’ll get in eventually.
I’d say no HOF for Jacoby and Coryell makes it but not in the next 10 years.
The rest is the order I think it should be if I was in charge. lol These go in within 10 years
1. Lynch
2. Law
4. Mawae
5. Atwater
6. J. Johnson – could see this going either way but I’ll say 60-40% he’ll get in. I support by the same amount. lol
7.E. James – I”l say he gets in but wouldn’t support. He was really good but IMO even more of a product of Colts fantastic Qb – Wr play than Roger Craig was in his Offense.
With only 1-2 strong 1st ballot elected candidates from 2020-2022 I could see all the following elected by 2022: Lynch, Law, Mawae, James, Johnson, and Altwater
1-2 strong likely 1st ballot candidates each year total 3-6 from 2020-2022 would leave up to 9 slots to fill, plenty of room for remaining 2018 finalists, won’t take as long as ten years to get them elected
You know what would be interesting is if someone could figure out of all the semi-finalists, say from 1980-2005, who weren’t put in as first time eligible HOFers, what percentage actually made the HOF? Do we think it would be 50-50?
Sounds like a research project for someone in here! I suspect number would be higher than 50%, one number I have heard it that if a candidate gets to the final 15 over 85% of them get elected (that may include eventual election as senior)
It does seem as if most folks who reach finalist stage get elected eventually. There are always a few who don’t sneak through, though. The recent elections of Ray Guy and Jerry Kramer thinned that herd a little, though.
Currently, the following folks have been finalists five or more times and not gotten in:
Bob Kuechenberg (8)
L. C. Greenwood (6)
Johnny Robinson (6)
Charley Conerly (7)
I’d be fine with Robinson or Greenwood getting in.
I concur bachs id be ok with robinson or greenwood nobis and russell eh not so much
Yes Paul, who will take that project on. lol Wow 85%, makes you wonder what keeps the other 15% out?
Bachs know he’ll get a comment on his omission. lol
I believe a couple things in people’s minds may be holding Bob Kuechenberg back, One is they’re remembering him for being part of a great Dolphin OL of early 1970’s SB’s instead of giving him credit for standing out on his own on teams that for the most part couldn’t run the ball very well.
Maybe they think he was given favor during his career because of his early fame. Or maybe now, they associate him with what some view as an obnoxious celebration every year of their Undefeated Season. Thank you, thank you New York Giants!! LOL Kuch was a great Guard in his time and I’ll always believe he’s HOF worthy . I think he’ll make it one day.
Of course the Steel Curtain is one of the greatest DL’s in NFL History. Greenwood was famous as a key part of those teams but individually doesn’t quite make the grade for me with his 73 1/2 sacks for a pass rushing DE in a 4-3 D. Besides Greenwood is already in a HOF. In 2012, the Professional Football Researchers Association named Greenwood to the PRFA Hall of Very Good Class of 2012. LOL Apparently he was OK with not being in the PFHOF because he felt the Team was well represented especially with Joe Greene. My favorite on their D-Line was Dwight White.
Conerly was a savvy QB and the toast of New York city in the late 50’s but a NO.
I feel it in my gut this is Johnny’s year to finally be a HOFer!!!! :)
Who is Russell? Andy ?
Dolphins great Larry Csonka on Nobis: “I’d rather play against Dick Butkus than Nobis,” (Sports Illustrated)
AJC columnist Furman Bisher on Nobis: “There isn’t much more one can say about Tommy Nobis. In the glow of a winning team, where he would have been a star on the isolated camera, he would already have been residing in Canton. It’s not a Falcons thing, it’s a Nobis thing, and here is a man who lives up to all the ideals I would establish for admission to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.”
Nobis passed away in December 2017.
I wish their was an edit button for my posts. lol
I think this Gil Brandt ranking thing must be legit if it’s on NFL.com. But I don’t think he’s doing a very good Job. lol
Derrick Thomas as second best LB of all time? LOL! I don’t know how any serious list could compare inside LB’s with outside.
He’s got Chuck Howley at #8 all-time ahead of Ray Lewis, Junior Seau, Brian Urlacher, Jack Lambert, Jack Hamm, Mike Singletary, Chuck Bednarik etc… basically all-time great LB’s. If this is the case wouldn’t more people be howling for Howley? lol
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000816217?campaign=tw-nf-sf190315027-sf190315027&sf190315027=1&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral
Plenty of people “howl for Howley,” for the HoF, and not just Rasputin. Rightly so, I might add.
Re Kooch and his failure to make the HoF, am thinking there are a couple reasons why:
1. There are already five guards who overlapped him who are enshrined.
2. Two of his o-line teammates are already in the HoF.
3. His honors are okay, if a little thin at 2/6/none.
Barring a strong film study argument, I’m on the fence with his candidacy at best.
All true, 2/6 may be thin for O-Lineman I didn’t consider that. .
Sorry 1/6 for Kuechenburg. I imagine he’s really the definition of a fence sitter for lots of people. Lots of very good players with 1 AP and even some HOFers with one or none but those selections are usually controversial.
I concur with bachs on kuechenberg
I want to hear from Bill, the man with all the SB’s and over 300 games on DVD. LOL Their must be a few Dolphin games in there. Tell me what you see?
If you have the time and want to learn all about Bob Kuechenberg the player this is a 2 hour youtube interview. It starts out a little slow talking about his days at Notre Dame but is very entertaining as he goes through his Pro experience. It is definitely raw and unfiltered!!
He tells it like he sees it from Larry Csonka being a wimpy blocker to himself whooping the MVP Alan Page’s ass all game long in SB 8 to Dan Marino running Shula’s Team as he lost his fire as a Head Coach by the mid-80’s .
I think he convinced me he deserves to be in the HOF. I know he was one smart and tough German who played with a lot of heart once he found a home with the Dolphins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6NkwYtCpHs
I have Kooch’s honors as 2/6/none. I count all non-AP first team all pro selections as equal, except for Sporting News pre-1980s (which was more like an all-conference squad). NEA named him to their team in 1975 and both AP and PFWeekly did in 1978.
I would have no problem with Kuechenberg as a senior candidate-but not before other 10-15 more deserving candidates get in.
I’m not sure if I can think of 10-15 deserving players who retired prior to 1984 before Kooch. Just off the top of my head -Chuck Howley, Johnny Robinson, Cliff Harris, Cliff Branch, Lee Roy Jordan, Harold Jackson, Larry Grantham, Bill Bergey, Jake Scott and Isiah Robertson. OK I have 10. lol I wouldn’t put all in before Kooch. I’m sure y’all have some older candidates.
How about putting some glue guys in the HOF like Jim”Hacksaw” Reynolds who sawed a Volkswagen in half or Matt Millen was in the middle with his 4 SB winning Defenses? LOL I’m not serious but these guys were important to winning.
Seniors I would induct before Kooch: Howley, J. Robinson, K. Anderson, Dilweg, Howton, Speedie, Wistert, Baughan , D. Slater, Lewellen, O. Emerson, B. Wilson, D. Putnam, G. Brito, Branch, H. Carmichael, H. Jackson, C. Harris, L. Parrish, B. Boyd, W. Sweeney, Budde, K. Gray, Faison, Kara’s, Sestak, Antwine, T. Davis, R. Brown, Lipscomb, R. Matheson, Parton, Meador, B. Dillon, A. Woodson, Gillingham, Barwegen, Greenwood, Gastineau, Klecko, J. Browner, D. Cherry, N. Cromwell, D. Grayson, Tyrer, W. Hill, G. Kunz, Gradishar, Grantham, Forester. Just off the top of my head….
PaRton, Karras. Damn autocorrect.
Patton, Karras. Damn, Damn, autocorrect.
Anyone else Bachs? lol I’ll be dead before your list is complete and so will Kooch. OK I get it you’re not a supporter. :)
I’ll take the Player who started in 5 SB’s and along with his HC (until Brady -Belicheck) had the greatest winning percentage in football history at 151-51 in mostly 14 game seasons, And every time Kooch went unnoticed he gained notice again with his play making more PB’s including two at the tail end of his career.
Re Matt Millen: not that he has any kind of argument for the HoF as a player, but if we’re considering such things as “winning,” his GM stint with the Lions was dog-awful.
My Seniors candidates list (top)-likely needs updates adding recent additions from modern candidates list:
G – Bob Kuechenberg 2/6/70s-80s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014)
T- Joe Jacoby 2(1)/4, 80s
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s (finalist 2012)
OT Al Wistert 1/8/40s (finalist 2014)
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s-80s (finalist 2012)
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s-80s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
OE LaVern Dilweg 20s (finalist 2014)
DT – Roger Brown 2/6/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013)
DE – L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s (finalist 2013, 2015)
DT – Alex Karras 4(5)/4 60s (finalist 2012)
DL Joe Klecko 2/4 (finalist, 2015)
LB – Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s (finalist 2012, 2014)
LB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012, 2014)
LB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
LB- Mike Curtis 2/4/60s-70s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
LB- Randy Gradishar 5/7 (finalist, 2015)
CB- Bobby Boyd 0/2/60s(finalist, 2015)
CB-Pat Fischer 0/3 (finalist, 2015)
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
CB – Lester Hayes 1/5/70s 80s (finalist 2012)
CB – Everson Walls 0/4
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
S- Ken Riley 0/4 (finalist 2014)
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014)
Top Ten – pretty solid and set list
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s (finalist 2012)
OT Al Wistert 1/8/40s (finalist 2014)
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s-80s (finalist 2012)
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s-80s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
DT – Alex Karras 4(5)/4 60s (finalist 2012)
LB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
LB- Randy Gradishar 5/7 (finalist, 2015)
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s (finalist 2012, 2013, 2014)
Why isn’t Howley in the HOF with his credentials? My only point was if he was top ten all-time wouldn’t someone in the national media mention him? I’ve never heard his name on the NFL Network or ESPN. No doubt he’s very deserving but it’s not a travesty in most eyes.
The lists of people who deserve to be in the HOF are as diverse as trying to come up with a top ten all-time list. One list had Howley third on it’s list of deserving players than another three lists didn’t have him at all. I wish there was consensus to get the oldest players in first but there isn’t.
This is a pretty popular website. You can vote on the list to raise guys up the list.
https://www.thetoptens.com/nfl-players-not-hall-fame/
Football historian John Turney recently named Chuck Howley first team All Decade on his 1965-75 team, and in the comments section on the Pro Football Journal site said, “I think Chuck Howley should be in the Hall of Fame.” It’d be nice if we could get a clear statement like that one way or the other out of Dallas HoF selector Rick Gosselin. Seems like the very least he could do.
Elliot Harrison also did a Top 10 all time Cowboys segment a while back on the NFL Network which he closed by citing Howley as an honorable mention and making a special HoF case for him. I think he was the only non top 10er mentioned. That was good to see. It’d be nice if more media types followed suit.
The best LB in Cowboy history shouldn’t have to wait any longer. Do you ever hear Jerry Jones, Troy Aikman, Irvin and other high profile Cowboys lobbying for Howley? That would maybe help. I didn’t see Howley play much but if he’s viewed as the best and he is, meaning better than Lee Roy Jordan, than the HOF should be of been a no brainer years ago because I thought Jordan was great. This omission is just strange to me for such a high profile team like the Cowboys. When did the Cowboys get on the map as one of the most popular NFL teams. In the late 60’s?
I think Howley’s case has been impacted by several factors (some of which have also impacted other players still in the seniors pool)
– anti-cowboys bias that existed among a group of long tendered PFHOF voters from the 1970s to mid 1990s (check out former voter Dr Z comments from mid 1990s which led him to resign from the seniors selection committee after decades of service)
– lack of All Decade team selection, seems to be a major factor-increasingly so-for election
– long time preference among voters to select offense players more so then defense, in both modern and senior pools (has changed in recent years), note number of LBs from 1960s and 1970s not elected -plus efforts in recent years to address that
– among the Cowboys greats from the Landry era, he was not as high profile in both name and position, delays in electing Mel Renfro, Rayfield Wright and Bob Hayes also pushed Howley back, Cliff Harris and Drew Pearson are also very deserving but when their names come up and focus shifts it takes away from Howley yet again
– limited election slots each year (starting when he was first eligible there have been elections with only 2 moderns and of course for decades only 1 senior), many years open slots went without a selection-creating backlog for many deserving modern and then senior candidates including Howley
-in the case of his senior candidacy, when the committee only numbers 9 and than only 5 of meet to select the senior nominee, a candidate needs a strong advocate in the room, pretty clear Howley has not had one and some point the blame at the “Cowboys delegate” Rick Gosselin who seems to take more efforts to get Detroit players elected and advocates for other less qualified and somewhat more obscure candidates who have no widespread support. Some would make the case that when Gosselin is among the 5 member senior candidate selection committee (whose members do rotate on and off) he should be screaming and banging the table in support of Howley instead of pursuing his latest pet project; Ed White??? Andy Russell??
This is a pretty popular website. You can vote on the list to raise guys up the list.
https://www.thetoptens.com/nfl-players-not-hall-fame/
Would be more helpful it was updated to remove Kramer and TO who have been elected.
I like the website but it’s not a very serious site. I found it when I wanted to know what people thought was the best decade for music. I have a virtual tie between the 60′ s and 70’s. Couldn’t believe the 80’s was number one. ack!!
I don’t understand anti-Cowboy bias. I’m as anti-Cowboy winning as anyone ever but I don’t think it clouds my judgment on on their talent. It’s pretty bad when you have people in important positions that can’t separate their feeling for a team. If a Team has a whole Defense of HOFers put them all in. Who gives a damn! lol I don’t know why Teams like Dallas, Oakland or Miami who had really long winning runs wouldn’t have all of their best players in the HOF. Winning matters to me. Get them in than focus on the rest that aren’t as obvious. I guess I just reversed my position on Greenwood. lol I don’t know about 2/7 Andy Russell? I didn’t think he was when I saw him play but that was near the end of his career. I know he was really loved by Steelers fans and his players. IMO no way Ed White is a HOFer. He had some great years in Minnesota. I know he had a PB in SD but I thought his play dropped off significantly when he left Minnesota. I don’t think I like this Gosselin fellow. lol Picking Claude Humphrey, Floyd Little and Dick LeBeau seemed to be feel good political choices. Not saying Humphrey isn’t worthy. Still I don’t know how Jerry Kramer, Chuck Howley and Johnny Robinson got ignored.
I agree very much with your list Paul. The only one that I’m not sure should be set is Eddie Meador. Plus I don’t agree with EVERYONE that thinks Ken Anderson is so urgent. I saw him play too much inconsistent QB play through much of the 70’s. He had great weapons in HOFer Charlie Joiner, Issac Curtis and Bob Trumpy so he had good stats for the time . However he didn’t seem to be a very good leader. He did finish his career in great fashion. By 1970’s standards he’s a HOFer but not more urgent than Bob Kuechenberg to me.
Ed White got a lot of notoriety from being on “Superstars” the Pro Team competitions where he showed he was one of the strongest players in football. I still remember him in those tug a war competitions. lol Can’t remember who won. I know the Vikings, Steelers and Dodgers participated.
I know Bachs will really disagree with me on Eddie Meador. I do hope he gets in one day fairly soon. :)
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/15/sports/sp-crowe-nest15
I agree on the bias issue, Tony P. I loathe certain teams but I always strive to be fair and objective in evaluations, When I argue against McNabb for the HoF, for example, it’s not because he’s an Eagle but because he doesn’t deserve it and I make my case with facts. While I don’t loathe the Packers I think they’re overrepresented in Canton but I’ve spent a lot of time here and elsewhere arguing for Sterling Sharpe’s induction. In fact I think he’s the most glaring 1990s omission. I also rate Reggie White as the greatest DE of all time and he was both a Packer and an Eagle, LOL. And I’ve argued that Sammy Baugh, a Redskin, is the greatest all around NFL player of all time.
I’ve never seen anyone come close to making a rational argument against Howley.
Rasputin, if Green Bay is over represented which players would you remove? I only see a couple possibly.
Looking at their list the only one I don’t believe belongs is 1/3 Dave Robinson. I’m sure he was a fine player and I suppose I could be convinced but just looking at the stats I’m not. He never made a PB after age 28 and for a LB that seems a little weak. Maybe he was terribly underrated? lol
I know Paul Hornung was a polarizing personality for good and bad but I can’t say he definitively doesn’t belong like Bachs. Hornung would have a tough time getting HOF attention notice by today’s standards but he was “sliced bread” back than. lol
It’s close for me but I’m not inclined to support Sterling Sharpe. I wouldn’t hate if he made it.
The reason I think bias against a Team is so bad because most people can separate and be objective. The hard part IMO is being 100% objective for the players on your favorite Team which you grew up with and the reason you love football. They shine more than the others.
For clarification my statement about Eddie Meador came off wrong. I was saying Bachs is a big supporter of him. And I changed my mind on Meador’s worthiness. I realized there were some parallels with Johnny Robinson and I like that he excelled as an underdog. Gotta support those undervalued Safeties for the HOF. :)
It’s more about the order some of them have been inducted than feeling strongly that they should never be in Canton, though Dave Robinson and Paul Hornung are certainly borderline at best.
Now we apparently have separate organized efforts on social media pushing to get Roman Gabriel and Pat Fischer selected as this years senior candidate-names I am not aware that have ever been mentioned as serious candidates or that have widespread support over others we all know and have discussed…..sigh….hate it when more deserving long waiting candidates continue to get pushed aside, I certainly neither of these two get serious consideration from the seniors committee any time soon
In my view no way Dave Robinson should have been picked over Kramer Howley or Robinson in fact his selection has only delayed further their more deserving elections
I agree with both of you guys. Order does matter. It would be nice to have the perception the Committee knows what they are doing. When Robinson was chosen, it was like hmm, I we can’t really think of anyone so lets throw in another Packer. lol Over the last decade too many times they’ve ignored the more obvious choices. I’d sure like to be a fly on the wall when they discuss candidates.
Pat Fischer!!! I’ve never heard his name come up. LOL I had a poster on my bedroom wall of Larry Csonka running Fischer over 20 yards down the field in Super Bowl VII. lol
Here goes Paul with his annual dave Robinson tangent here’s an idea let it go the man is in the hall of fame
It wasn’t Paul I was the instigator. :) No doubt we’ve had thoughts here that have been regurgitated a few times over the years. lol There’s a lot of frustration over some of these lesser profiles players being selected over other players we view as more deserving players.
I’m glad Jerry Kramer finally made it but I fear there’s a ways to go before there’ll be resolution on some of these old-timers. I wish it wasn’t so but the more time goes by the more in the shadows these players become. Every year feels like a lost opportunity. Hopefully the HOF Committee eventually gets it right.
I know why they put up those polls over at the Talk of Fame website. It’s to stimulate talk and interest. Problem is, it’s not an accurate reflection of anything other than the ability of (perhaps) one person to stuff the ballot box. Pat Fischer (3/3/none) has no business in the HoF, especially when folks like Lemar Parrish, Bobby Boyd, Dave Grayson, Abe Woodson, Cornell Green, Louis Wright, and Lester Hayes aren’t enshrined. Fischer reportedly looks only so-so in film study and he has a weak honors profile. And while I wouldn’t complain horribly if Roman Babriel made it into the HoF eventually, he’s low priority being at a position badly over-represented in Canton — and certainly not a head of Ken Anderson.
And while I agree that Dave Robinson shouldn’t be in ahead of guys like Howley, Baughan, Gradishar, etc., he’s one of those players who apparently played far better than his meager 3/3/60s honors suggest. My gripe with Robinson is more about the ordering than the fitness.
Gabriel. Damn autocorrect.
lol.
Ok, a moment of sincerity. Ya it’s easy to be a little over critical. I’m guilty of it and think about it when I’m expressing myself. Honestly, I wouldn’t want these HOFers or their families to read some of what I say because it comes purely out of frustration. The truth is I really don’t begrudge any of these players being honored. When you get down to it, “ALL ABOUT THE ORDER” once a player gets into the HOF.
Thanks Robert, your comment struck a cord for me. I’ll try to do better. :) That said, y’all shouldn’t expect me to be any less critical or opinionated about guys who aren’t in yet.. LMAO!!
Sorryyyyyyyyy Robert, I will be sure to never again discuss Robinson or any other already elected PFHOFer
Paul, I don’t believe that lol, nor should you if that’s your preference. I was only speaking for myself. I think Robert was probably just razzing on you a little.
its cool, probably should get up on that soapbox a little less frequently as he is right once elected nothing we can say or do, and usually I am not a fan of dishing on PFHOFers in order to raise the case of other deserving candidates. Its just the annual frustration of seeing so many long waiting players get passed over year after year.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but if you can’t get on a soapbox here about the HoF, where can you? I have no problem with that, and no amount of scolding is going t9 make me feel otherwise.
I agree 100% with both sentiments! :)
I may be misguided at times in my thinking but you’ll alway get a open honest opinion and I don’t shut up unless I want to. LOL
After years of trying I finally got Rick Gosselin to say that he thinks Chuck Howley belongs in the Hall of Fame:
“I would agree. Chuck Howley belongs in the Hall of Fame.”
Unfortunately he immediately followed it up with these comments minimizing the urgency of his case:
“So do Drew Pearson and Cliff Harris. Every established NFL franchise has 3-4 players it feels has not gotten a fair shake in the selection process. That gives you a slate of about 80 candidates who deserve to have the candidacies discussed. Johnny Robinson, Randy Gradishar, Alex Karras and Ken Anderson all deserve to be in the Hall of Fame in my opinion. And committee gets to make one nomination for the Class of 2019.”
But that’s an improvement over not even saying that much I guess. A slight improvement.
Any thoughts on Calvin Hill’s chances? He really did great late in his career as a 3rd down pass catcher for the Browns. Most RB’s are done by 30.
Some of my favorites to watch were Mercury Morris, Terry Metcalf, Greg Pruitt and James Brooks. I think 1/5 Pruitt is definitely HOF material.
I liked Joe Delaney too.
https://www.breitbart.com/sports/2018/06/29/joe-delaney-gave-his-life-trying-to-rescue-drowning-children-35-years-ago-today/
Hill was a great RB and one of those rare guys who made first team All Pro as a rookie. Might have had a better chance at Canton if he hadn’t left Dallas for the WFL while he was still in his prime. That may have disrupted his career. I think the old Cowboys RB with the best shot might be Don Perkins, who had 6 Pro Bowls and retired ranked #5 in career rushing. I think it’s fair to say he’s the best RB from the 60s who’s not already in the HoF. But I’m not sure what the prospects for any senior Cowboys are. In public comments at least Gosselin doesn’t seem to have any urgency at all in advancing their cases.
I think two maybe three Cowboys will make it in time. I personally would like to see Drew Pearson in first followed by Cliff Harris. One thing I wonder is, did Tony Hill’s success take some of Pearson’s shine off? Hill was awful talented. And Drew wasn’t “the main man” his last 6 years.
Ya Calvin Hill is forever a Cowboy icon but probably never a HOFer. Did you hear Bob Kuechenberg talk about what the AFL was for Larry Czonka? Zonk wasn’t good enough to get off the Bench. lol Without the Dolphin OL creating space he couldn’t get a yard on his on because he wasn’t fast enough to the line. But if he had a hole where he could get a couple yards Kooch said the only one he ever saw harder to bring down short of getting five yards was Earl Campbell.
I think Pearson’s average profile 3(1)/3/all decade has held him back and placed him into a rather large group of similar 70s/early 80s PFHOF candidates including Branch, Stanley Morgan, Harold Carmichael, and others , Pearson also had a real drop off in production in the 1980s. I do think he is deserving of the PFHOF due to the fact that you could not write a history of the NFL of the 1970s without meaning his several major game winning catches. I suspect his case is also harmed by very similar cases being made for Cliff Harris and Chuck Howley, splitting consideration among the senior voters-including Gosselin – for future Cowboy senior selections. Personally as much as I would like to see Pearson get in, Howley in my mind is a higher priority.
Sorry- I was away on vacation but I wanted to weigh in on Bob Kuechenberg. In my opinion Kuechenberg does belong in the HOF. This should have happened when he was still eligible. Since he wasn’t he stands behind, a seniors list that is at east 12 deep before you get to him.
By the way he was very good early on during the SB years. He actually was way better personally in the early 80’s. He excelled early as a run blocker but was occasionally beat as a pass protector in the 70’s. In the 80’s he was still a great run blocker but became a top notch pass protector, So much so that he played some left tackle in the 80’s and was successful.
Eddie Meador should be in the HOF too. I have him about 8 deep on the senior list.
Johnny Robinson is the number 1 player who should get nominated this year. Than I have a list of 24 other players who should get into the Hall at some point unfortunately, with a number like that (and sure to grow) some of these may be permanent.
Thanks for the feedback Bill. You’re my new best friend. lol
Paul, I just listened to David Spada’s interview with Chuck Howley. Hard not to root for such a humble, engaging, high character man like that. Feel like I know better the type of player he was. I like those interviews. Ya, I’d move Howley to the top of my list right there with Johnny Robinson.
Does seem to be strong buzz around Robinson this year-as has been in last few years-hoping it turns into positive outcome from the seniors committee vote late next month. But as with previous decisions one never knows the outcome.
Aint that the truth!! IMO if they put Robinson and Howley in next after doing Kramer this year that would go a long way towards repairing the negative image I have of this process right now. If they continue to reach for say a Harold Carmichael they’ll lose all respect in my eyes. Might as well have a monkey spin a wheel. lol
I remember when the Steelers won their last SB than coincidentally Dick LeBeau was chosen as the Senior Nominee. Atlanta rises to prominence and the national media does a story on the 65 year old Emmit Thomas’s many decades as an assistant coach and than he gets chosen. I know it sounds cuckoo but maybe they do elect Carmichael, Philly’s all-time leading receiver and this years Black College HOF selection. If it happens after the Eagles SB I’ll know it’s not just ironic. And boy would it tick off Cowboy fans.
http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/state-case-harold-carmichael/
Harold Carmichael would not be the worst WR in the Hall Of Fame but I would put him behind Cliff Branch, Drew Pearson, Del Shofner and a few others. Sometimes it does seem like current press will put a senior candidate back into the limelight. Having said that and knowing that I am probably in the minority, I believe that both Thomas and LeBeau were Hall of famers. The problem was, that their were others that I would have chosen over them. the one senior candidate that was elected recently that i cannot wrap my head around was Floyd Little. I try not to knock anyone who has been elected, but their were at least a dozen players from the AFL that I would have chosen ahead of him.
I’m not taking the bait on that one!! LOL
No problem with Carmicheal just would be if selected now ahead of other more deserving players. I don’t know how they can’t think of these really old player’s ages at least a little. Do we really want a bunch of HOFers who can’t represent themselves at their Canton Induction? I bet they thought they had more time with Kenny Stabler. Not always the case. Jerry Kramer is barely able to walk. The Senior’s who get elected are usually so damn old. It really magnifies the backlog. What do you think about a player only getting one nomination? I’m thinking about Claude Humphrey in particular. IMO these spots are too valuable to give a guy another crack unless things change.
………..(silence)…………………
I’d be fine with Harold Carmichael getting into the HoF someday, though whether he’s a top priority guy is another question. I’m thinking not as much. Among WRs and two-way ends, I’d give higher priority to folks like Lavvie Dilweg, Billy Howton, Del Shofner, Mac Speedie,, and Harold Jackson.
As for getting more than one Senior shot, that depends on HoF fitness for me. I’m fine with Claude Humphrey getting a second shot because he should have gotten in the first time around. And given his health issues (diabetic and other problems), I don’t begrudge that second chance coming so soon after his first Senior try. Note well that Jarry Kramer was a second try Senior as well, and I’m fine with him being elected also.
Andy or Tony any chance you could start us off with a new topic -perhaps your 2019 predictions (as this thread is getting pretty long and dated)
Bachs, so you do think they take into consideration the health of who they nominate? I don’t think Claude was much of a reach so why did he need to get nominated twice? Tell me, do they nominate more players than can be put in for a given year? Is that what happened? If not I’m still a you only get one crack at it as a Senior guy. Has anyone failed twice?
Happy 4th of July ZoneBlitz folks!!
I second that Paul. lol
I’ll second that Paul. lol
No idea how health and age play into it, but I have no problem if they take those things partly into account. My thinking is that Claude Humphrey should have gotten in on his first Senior try. He was very deserving, I think.
There actually have been several two time Senior nominees: Marshall Goldberg, Henry Jordan, Jerry Kramer, Bob Hayes, and Lou Creekmur. And Dick Stanfel was the only three time nominee. All but Goldberg were inducted eventually, and to my way of thinking, I’m fine with all but Goldberg being in (Hayes and Stanfel are more on-the-fence types for my taste, but not unreasonable choices either).
Thank you Sir. It would be hard not to bring the human element into the decision a little. Who lol never heard of Goldberg. Only one I know is the wrestler. :) In theory that’s 7 more nominees who missed out. Maybe if not a second chance denied than make them wait X years before another nomination?
I went back and looked at the election process and it looks different than I remembered. I thought the number of Seniors put in 1 or 2 was contingent on the number of Modern elected? 5 modern could equal 2 senior and 6 only one senior. I also remember the senior committee being 6 people not 9 and I don’t remember so many players being nominated initially. In fact I don’t remember them sharing the internal workings, if there were any before the players were selected. I could be wrong but it does sound improved some.
So what do we think about Terrell Owens if it’s true no former Team would help to foot the Canton bill which can cost $400,000? He’s having his ceremony at his college alma mater for free.
It once was set for maximum of 7, voters would first debate on senior and then vote (needing 80%) , if senior elected there would be max of six modern slots to then fill from 15 remaining moderns. I believe when they went to 2 seniors they dropped the varied modern slots, just went with max five moderns and up to two seniors. Then 5 yr cycle of alternating 1-2 seniors/contributors was set, which ends with 2019 election
PFHOFers and their immediate family get all expenses paid, team parties (which have gotten very large in recent years) are up to a sponsoring team. My theory is that once TO went to his planning meeting at the Hall and found out they would not pay him an appearance fee or spring for a huge party he then backed out. His loss as PFHOF staff and 1000s of local Canton volunteers put in a great week of events where PFHOFers are treated as royality. There are good reasons why every other PFHOFer has attended and only makes his absence look worse on him
Just to be clear seniors have never (and current seniors and contributors) competed against themselves or the moderns for an election slot. They are first discussed individually then get an immediate deciding vote for each, yes or no and needing 80% yes to get in. Then committee moves on to discussing 15 moderns, followed by votes down to 10, then 5 and then a final vote on the five, each individual needing then 80% of that final vote to get in
That’s good info Paul, thanks. You know the other day ESPN was telling a poor TO story, no Team would help pay for his expenses and some analysts were giving him a pass now. I hope more comes out and they follow up with the facts you’ve given. Could be a fake news alert! lol
Terrell Owens, his presenter and immediate family would not have to pay anything. That should be enough for any player. In the not to distant past (I could be wrong but I believe it was when 49ers from the Debartolo era started having lavish after parties that teams started to pay for and it has kind of become the norm. Then the Cowboys started paying for days worth events pre-and post induction, but not all teams do this.) I’m sure more than anything T. Owens has his feelings hurt because he played for both of those franchises and they had no plans to do this for him.
And yet he is hosting his own free event where no one is being paid and no party expenses covered by anyone else. ESPN is likely right on in terms of the party cost issue, but I found it odd that it was only after his first and only meeting at the PFHOF (they host each candidate for a day long orientation on event planning) is when he suddenly decided not to attend. Makes me wonder if lack of an paid appearance fee was also an issue. Combined with his lack of attendance at several post election PFHOF events, including press conference, initial measurements and fittings, it appears more likely he is taking the childish approach to simply be difficult at each state. One has to wonder has he actually sat for his bust measurements??
Personally I think it is great that the PFHOF is taking the high road and making no addition comments beyond their initial statement that TO was not attending. I hope they present his career highlight video and unveil his bust during the ceremony, then simply move on to the next one. NFL Network and NBC covering the event will no doubt discuss his absence, but lets hope they have the sense to not let it dominate the event or take away from the other deserving enshrinees.
I agree that the Hall should remain low profile and classy. I wonder if the crowd will do the same? lol There’ll be a lot of Philly fans there for Dawkins. Also the ultimate team guy Ray Lewis can’t be happy with TO so I wonder how much he’ll speak about it leading up to HOF induction? It will be interesting.
In terms of the actual event, and media coverage, I think TO’s no-show will largely be a minor distraction quickly lost among the activities and other 7 enshrinees. Unlike the live televised event, at best TOs “speech” may get a clip on the major sports evening news shows.
Depends on what he says. lol He loves some me! I wonder if he’ll have someone there to at least represent him ? I’m not sure what the point is of having the bust reveal if no one is there from his friends or family.
As to bust reveal, it’s fir the fans attending and for PFHOF to take the professional high road and treat TO equally as if he did attend, not create any more debate or controversy
I’m sold on Johnny Robinson my two contributors would be bowlen and Brandt thoughts
For me as a fan I could care less about the bust. I only want to see the player and presenter reaction to it but go ahead and go through the motions I suppose. The whole thing is so anti-climatic without the player and family. Do you think they should do TO first and get it over with quick? I’m thinking so. They could say, our first guy isn’t here because he has a history of acting like selfish turd. lol
I’d be very happy with Robert’s scenario.
I’m with Robert on Johnny Robinson (though Chuck Howley would be a great choice, too) for the Senior nominee. I feel these two should absolutely be the next two Seniors on the docket. They’re alive, the two most highly deserving, and extremely old.
Also fine with Gil Brandt, though my preference is to have Art McNally as the second Contributor choice given his age and the fact that officials are poorly represented in the HoF (Shorty Ray is the only one). Owners are pretty heavily represented in comparison to GMs and folks like McNally and Steve Sabol.
However, I can see the wish (assuming one feels he’s sufficiently qualified) to fast-track Pat Bowlen in given his health issues. If we’re going by most qualification deserving of owners, I’d personally opt for Robert Kraft (alive and very old himself) or Ralph Hay (deceased). But as they say, YMMV.
But these things tend to be pretty much impossible to predict. If they come up with Marshall Goldberg, Joe Thomas, and Carroll Rosenbloom as nominees, it wouldn’t surprise me all that much. Major-league disappointed, too, but that’s another story.
Johnny Robinson’s nephew Troy has shared some stories that reflect the importance of Johnny to the Team and how good a player he was. Zero doubt in my mind he belongs in the HOF.
Troy will share anything he can to get Johnny into the HOF. This is what Troy shared today,
“He’s getting lots of people tons speaking on his behalf. More are coming out. BART star said in super bowl one they discussed the chiefs defense. They were very afraid of the chiefs. One play turned that game and had Stram listened to Johnny those TD passes may not have happened. He had Johnny playing run first and he begged Stram to let him rotate the center. After that game Stram let Johnny call all defensive plays. Studying the film Starr asked Lombardi how to game plan against Johnny Robinson his reply was keep the ball away from him at all cost. He told Starr he was best safety he had seen.”
Another player Lance Alworth did a short video to support the push for Johnny to the HOF. if I can figure out how to share I will.
I’m going to do all I can for the “Johnny Push” by posting on other websites to make people aware.
https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/vahe-gregorian/article214378094.html
ok goldberg would be very very weak whats everyones thoughts on rosenbloom and joe thomas
I was using Thomas and Rosenbloom as (relative) nightmare scenarios, just to make the slate weak but potentially plausible. Rosenbloom would be behind lots of owners for me: Kraft, Hay, Bowlen, Adams, Modell, Cooke, Murchison, and Robbie at the very least. Thomas would be behind Brandt and Kilroy for sure. Both do have some level of plausible argument, but am thinking not an especially strong one.
Rosenbloom looks to be a great NFL owner. He was the Owner for 3 NFL Championship Teams. I’m surprised he’s not already in the HOF. He had the good sense to bring Don Shula into the fold as a player and later hire as a HC. i could make an argument that no Owner has had a better run of Head Coach hires than Weeb Ewbank, Don Shula, Don McCafferty and Chuck Knox. He was popular Owner with his players. Is there something I’m missing?
What did Joe Thomas ever do? Pro-Reference shows he was a Colts and 49ers General Manager and briefly a HC over a 7 year period in the 1970’s but nothing HOF remarkable. I do remember he was the hot name for building the Colts with Bert Jones and John Dutton but that was relatively short lived. He’s 97 years old now.
Caroll Rosenbloom’s record as an Owner:
Reg. Season Playoffs
Baltimore Colts 1953-1971 154 90 6 8 4
Los Angeles Rams 1972-1978 72 26 2 4 6
Total 26 Years 226-116-8 12 10
Joe Thomas’s main claim to fame is being Director of Player personnel for the buildup of those great early 70s Dolphin teams. He also built up a decent Bert Jones era Colts squad and began to lay a foundation for the 80s 49ers teams when he was fired. He apparently was a prickly fellow who tended to rub folks the wrong way.
The question re Rosenbloom is whether he’s a better owner candidate than the other owners I listed. I can’t think he is, unfortunately. Perhaps I’m missing something?
Again, both are plausible but not to me very high priority.
agreed bachs on the high priority for rosenbloom and thomas
Bachs, I thought you didn’t favor Robbie for the HOF? The biggest thing he did was hire Shula and got slapped with tampering losing a 1st round pick. It proved worth it. lol
I knew I should of known that Joe Thomas name better. lol The Dolphins is why he got so much fame. But if you listen to Bob Kuechenberg, Monte Clark is the one that made their OL jell into greatness. Still he did draft a bunch of really excellent players who Don Shula could excel with. He also was GM for the Vikings from 1961-65. In his career he drafted HOFers Tarkington, Tinglehoff, Krause, Eller, Greise, Csonka and acquired Buoniconti, Langer, Little and Warfield. Jim Marshall was a good player for a long time too. So were Jim Kiick, Bill Stanfill, Jake Scott, Dick Anderson and acquistion Garo Yepremian. I don’t know he was pretty good at picking players. lol Wikipedia says he died in 1983 which sounds more plausible.
Bud Adams won the first two AFL Titles when the League was the weakest than for much of the next 50 years his Oilers and Titans were irrelevant. I like Owners that win more than they lose. I don’t care if he was one of the AFL founders he wouldn’t get my support. Art Modell is a different story because the Browns were usually at least relevant. It was too bad what happened in Cleveland after he had built up so much good will. Modell also went out winning with the Ravens. He would be at the top of the list for me along with Rosenbloom for deserving it but I suppose they should put Kraft and Bolen in sooner because they are still alive.
I’m actually not much of a fan of Joe Robbie for the HoF. Murchison or Cooke either. I’ve just listed them as plausible possibilities. The only two owners I feel strongly about not in are Kraft and Hay. Am more on the fence with Bowlen, Adams, and Modell.
Yeah, you’re right about Thomas and the early Vikings teams. His case is plausible, though not for me as strong as either Brandt or Kilroy. And the latter needs his HotVG level playing career to make it for me.
I naturally respected Joe Robbie as the Owner of my favorite team but I wouldn’t support him for the HOF. I’m thinking Clint Murchison Jr. has about the same case as Robbie.
I could get behind Joe Thomas after my memory kicked in with a little help. lol
Bachs, I was hoping you would give further comment on Rosenbloom being a “nightmare scenario” that’s why I asked if I was missing something. :)
Aren’t you a Colts fan from way back? Wasn’t Rosenbloom very competitive and outspoken? I would imagine he rubbed some Colt fans wrong first firing Weeb and than the way he left?
I would go with Brandt and Bowlen but going forward hoping the contributors are not overloaded with owners as more deserving GMs and scouts should be recognized
The reason I’m not a big fan of owners like Robbie, Cooke, Murchison, and Rosenbloom for the HoF is that I don’t support owners who won but didn’t do much else. Which is why I think Eddie DeBartolo is such a horrible HoF choice — as far as I can tell, he contributed nothing to the sport and didn’t do anything significant along the lines of committee work.
Gotcha thanks, Here’s my Senior Safety list in order of need to be in HOF.
Johnny Robinson
Eddie Meador
Donnie Shell
Jake Scott
Joey Browner
Dick Anderson
Nolan Cromwell
Rick Volk
You forgot Cliff Harris, Tony.
opps! Oh that’s tough now but I’m going to give Scott the nod over Harris in priority but I’m sure most won’t agree. :) IMO both deserve to be in the HOF.
2/5 vs 3/6 but Scott has 20 more ints. in 15 fewer games and although not flashy was an excellent punt returner. That’s probably why Scott gets a slight edge in Approximate Value over Harris. Scott also has a SB MVP because of his 2 ints. although I think I agree with Kuechenberg that DT Many Fernandez should of been MVP with his 17 tackles. That’s half a season for some DT’s. lol He was a beast that day against the Redskins.
Everyone always brings up that Jake Scott maybe didn’t play long enough but he didn’t start his NFL career until 25. I’m not entirely clear on it but it appears after High school he went into the military as a Marine and than went to play Georgia Bulldog football where he set the season record with 10 ints. in his sophmore season. He only played there 2 seasons but still holds the Georgia career int. record with 16. He certainly had a knack for the ball. lol Than in 1968 he went to Canada to play for the BC Lions. He could of been drafted into the War but wasn’t because he served previously so I don’t really understand going to Canada. Plus didn’t being in college make you exempt? So I’m not sure why playing only 9 years based on his circumstances is being held against him? Maybe it isn’t? If he wasn’t a great tackler I could understand being snubbed but he was one heck of a hitter.
Interceptions, while worth noting, are overrated. They only account for a few plays each season. There’s far more to playing safety than that. And “AV” isn’t a real stat. It’s a convoluted proprietary metric cooked up by PFR that’s really only useful for separating long term major contributors from players who contributed significantly less, not for precision comparisons. Cliff Harris was excellent in both coverage and run stopping, and was one of the hardest hitters in the league. He helped revolutionize that position. That may be why he was voted first team All Decade, along with making more Pro Bowls and first team All Pro selections than Scott. The Cowboys definitely missed when he retired. After ranking #3 in pass defense his final year of 1979 and having ranked in the top few the previous several years they plunged to #16 their first year without him and stayed mid-pack or worse for years after that. I definitely give Harris the edge. In fact I’d put him just under Johnny Robinson at #2 on the safeties list.
The list of Senior deserving safeties is very long. It absolutely should include, in no particular order:
Bobby Dillon
Jimmy Patton
Johnny Robinson
Eddie Meador
Cliff Harris
Donnie Shell
Nolan Cromwell
Deron Cherry
Joey Browner
If you include hybrids who played both positions:
Dave Grayson
Cornell Green
Jake Scott and Dick Anderson wouldn’t be the wors5 selections, either, though I’m not enamored of the former’s short career or the latter’s short honors.
And agreed with Rasputin, interceptions are overrated. It can tell you that the player was a ballhawk with a nose for the ball, or the player got thrown on a lot, or that the player played forever. In other words, not much.
Cliff Harris had a 6 year Pro Bow run vs Jake Scott’s 5 Pro Bowls but Scott had a 5 year run as 1st or 2nd Team All Pro to Harris’ 3 year run of 1st Team All Pros only. Dick Anderson and Ken Houston got in there a couple times. These were the 4 best Safeties in NFL in the 70’s That’s still leaves a lot of AP spots for Safety. Who got them?
Cliff Harris played for the highest profile Team of the 1970’s. He went to 5 SB’s. It’s only natural he would be picked to the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s All 1970’s 1st Team. Ken Houston 2 /12 was the other one. Dick Anderson 2/3 was named PFHOF All 1970’s 2nd Team along with Larry Wilson a 1/1.
It all a bunch of BS politics when it comes to Jake Scott if you ask me. I’ll never believe Harris or Anderson were better than Jake Scott who is on Pro Football Reference’s All 1970’s 1st Team with Ken Houston . I believe they take the politics out of it when choosing a Team. IMO both Harris and Scott should be in the HOF. But I wouldn’t be surprised if one day they pick Anderson over Scott. Or it may be another Duper -Clayton situation where one screws up the other.
I thought Cornerbacks were the ones usually picked on and burned by the QB especially in the days of two WR’s? Miami didn’t have a single Pro Bowl at the CB position so it makes no sense they would pick on their two best players in the secondary. And I can promise you many of those interceptions by Scott and Anderson were important to stopping drives in Miami’s famous bend but don’t break Defense years. So I’m not buying the theory Scott was thrown on more than Harris or anyone else who was a great player. lol I wish we could see how many balls were knocked down too. Being a ball hawk is a big part of playing Safety and Scott made All Pro as both a FS and SS. I just don’t agree with the generalization that Interceptions over a career are over rated as I wouldn’t say that lack of them necessary shows that a player wasn’t good. For example Steve Atwater with only 23. If you can make up for a lack of them fine but anytime you get an interception it has a chance to stop momentum of the other team and we all know how important that can be in football. I doubt the game that Anderson got 4 picks and 2 TDs off the Pittsburgh Steelers on a Monday in 1973 they were trying to pick on him after the 1st int. lol and same goes for Jake Scott. He got one too!
Bachs, I’m getting the feeling their wouldn’t be a Dolphin in the HOF if up too you. Well, maybe one. Don Shula. LOL :) You gotta be a Baltimore Colts fan? lol I know how intense that rivalry was in the 1970’s. I REALLY didn’t like the Colts. Especially Bert Jones!
Gotta say too, I don’t really get your support for Nolan Cromwell who was a hell of an athlete/player for a few years but per your standards falls short on accolades.
I have heard a lot of thing s but saying interceptions are overrated is simply insane
I’ve come around more on Cromwell for the HoF, though I’m not convinced he’s a head-of-the -lone guy, either. His profile of 3/4/80s is respectable, plus he apparently looks extremely good in film study.
I’m also not anti-Dolphins when it comes to the HoF. It’s just that they’re a team that happily has seen pretty much all its deserving HoFers get in. I have no quibble with Shula, Griese, Langer, Buoniconti, Stephenson, Little, Marino, Taylor, Csonka, Warfield, or Beathard. And I’m on the fence re Kuechenberg, Scott, and Anderson, though I don’t see them as high priority folks, either.
Cliff Harris was a big reason the Cowboys went to so many Super Bowls. He retired relatively young too. If he had played longer maybe they would have went to some SBs in the 80s.
Johnny Nolan Robinson
#42 Safety, Kansas City Chiefs (1960–1972)
1st round, third overall, of the 1960 NFL and AFL Draft
CAREER HIGHLIGHTS
•57 career interceptions in 10 seasons playing defense (Third on all-time list at retirement and Chiefs all-time interception leader as safety)
•18 career touchdowns
•Led league with 10 interceptions in 1966 and 1970
*Leader in League Interception Returns
•1962, 1966 & 1969 AFL Championships
•Super Bowl Champion (Played Super Bowl I and Super Bowl IV)
•Seven-time All Star / Pro Bowler (1963 – 1968, 1970)
•Seven-time First-Team All AFL/All Pro selection (1965-1970)
•Two-Time Second Team All AFL / All Pro selections (1963, 1964)
•One of just 20 men to play all 10 years of the AFL (played post-merger and led NFL first year of merger)
•Pro Football Hall of Fame All-Time AFL First Team
•Pro Football Hall of Fame Combined Team of the Decade – 1960s
*Pro Football Hall of Fame First All Pro Team First Team
•Kansas City Chiefs All -Time Team
*Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Fame
*Missouri Sports Hall of Fame
*Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame
*LSU Sports Hall of Fame
*LSU Team of the Century
*LSU Undefeated 1958 National Championship Team
PLAYERS, COACHES & ADMINISTRATORS
Simply put, Johnny Robinson is one of the greatest safeties that I ever faced. In fact, I can’t think of any that I’ve seen in the 50 years since that have been better. When we ran cross patterns against Kansas City, I knew that I was going to get hit hard. I had to prepare myself specifically for him, both mentally and physically. Johnny Robinson absolutely deserves to be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Lance Alworth, Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 1978 – San Diego Chargers & Dallas Cowboys, 1962-1972
Johnny Robinson is one of the best to ever play the game and is long overdue for induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. He was a great and honorable player, and I never had to worry about taking a cheap shot from him. It was my honor to play against Johnny Robinson, and I would surely cast my vote for him.
Don Maynard, Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 1987 – New York Giants, Titans/Jets, St. Louis Cardinals, 1958-1973
He deserves the vote to be selected in the NFL Hall of Fame.
Donny Anderson, Green Bay Packers & St. Louis Cardinals, 1966-1974
It was an honor for me to be a young coach on Coach Stram’s coaching staff on the road to SB IV. Johnny Robinson played a very important role in the SB IV win over the Minnesota Vikings. His critical interception sealed a close and hard-fought victory. Johnny played that game with banged up ribs and he played his heart out like did in every game. He was a team player and a coach’s player. He is very deserving to be considered for the NFL Hall of Fame as he represents both the AFL and the NFL in his outstanding career.
John Beake, Kansas City Chiefs, New Orleans Saints Assistant Coach 1968-1977, Denver Broncos General Manager 1984-1998
I would play with Johnny Robinson any day and put him up against anybody. I put him at the top as a safety. Playing with Johnny was like having a coach on the field. I was great to play with a guy who was such a student of the game. Johnny Robinson should have been put in the hall of fame a long time ago.
Bobby Bell, Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 1983 – Kansas City Chiefs, 1963-1974
Offense, defense, return teams….Johnny Robinson could do it all and do it well. Carried over his offensive skills catching and running with the ball to the defense, and became an all-time great safety, tough, fast and determined….what is a Hall of Fame without him? Eight years with Johnny….all good ones!
Chris Burford, Dallas Texans & Kansas City Chiefs, 1960-1967
Johnny Robinson was a fantastic safety, and really controlled the great Chiefs defense of the 1960s. In fact, the Kansas City Chiefs would not have been the Kansas City Chiefs without him. I have absolutely no reservations about saying that Johnny Robinson deserves induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Clem Daniels, AFL All-Time Team – Dallas Texans, Oakland Raiders & San Francisco 49ers, 1960-1968
I only watched Johnny on T.V. I remember how great he was, a for-sure HoF player. I am a huge fan and was especially when I was a young kid. He was one of the best.
Joe DeLamielleure, Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2003 – Buffalo Bills & Cleveland Browns, 1973-1985
John always stood out when we played KC amongst probably the most talent-laden team in the AFL. He was a diagnostic player who could really hit. Reminded me of Nick Buoniconti.
Larry Eisenhauer, Boston Patriots, 1961-1969
Johnny brought class and leadership to the free safety position. He was calm and disciplined and always prepared, rarely out of position. Without fanfare he defined the position.
Tom Flores, Two-Time Super Bowl-Winning Head Coach, Oakland Raiders, Buffalo Bills, Kansas City Chiefs, 1960-1969
He was one of the top DBs of all time. John was a student of all the great receivers of his era. He was a great cover guy, and he hit receivers with the strength of a linebacker. He adapted to whatever he needed to be. Smart, tough, a ton of character and a will to win. All of us that played with John considered him to be what a great football player was. I was proud to say I was a teammate of John’s.
Ed Lothamer, Kansas City Chiefs, 1964-1972
Every time he stepped on the field, Johnny Robinson came to play. He was very smart, very good, and is absolutely deserving of a spot in the hall of fame.
Paul Maguire, 10-Year AFL Player, Los Angeles/San Diego Chargers, Buffalo Bills, 1960-1970
Johnny Robinson was the most athletic defensive back in the league. He could also play wide receiver and running back and did at times. He should without a doubt be in the hall of fame.
Tony Banfield, Houston Oilers, 1960-1963, 1965
The year of Super Bowl I (1966), I was an assistant with the Chiefs. Johnny Robinson, had a unique mesh of talent. He was a very intense performer; fully understood the defensive scheme and was able to make adjustments under pressure. He was personable, friendly, helpful to teammates, and highly popular among the players, coaches and fans. On a personal level, ’66 was my first in pro football, and it was intimidating. Johnny sensed this and went out of his way to put me at ease. Johnny has devoted his “after” football life to working on behalf of troubled youth.
Chuck Mills, Kansas Chiefs Assistant Coach 1966, Utah State, Wake Forest, Southern Oregon University
Head Coach 1967-1988
Johnny Robinson was as hard a tackler as there was in the AFL, now the NFL. I played in front of Johnny and if I was blacked, Johnny hit like a linebacker – HARD! He could cover receivers like no one I ever saw, and they feared him and respected him. Johnny is long overdue in the Hall of Fame. He needs to be in it while he is still with us.
Paul Rochester, 10-Year AFL Player – Dallas Texans, Kansas City Chiefs, New York Jets, 1960-1969
I played with Johnny Robinson for seven years as a Dallas Texan and Kansas City Chief. He was a tremendous athlete with an outstanding 12-year career. He very much deserves to be in the NFL Hall of Fame.
Smokey Stover, Dallas Texans, Kansas City Chiefs, 1960-1966
Johnny Robinson was as complete a safety as ever played. He was as valuable as Len Dawson, Willie Lanier, and Bobby Bell, all of whom are in the Hall of Fame.
Hank Stram, Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2003 – Dallas Texans, Kansas City Chiefs, New Orleans Saints Head Coach, 1960-1977
Johnny Robinson was fantastic. There’s no doubt about it. When you watched him against the receivers on your team, and saw the respect they afforded him, you quickly understood how great a player he was.
Bob Talamini, Houston Oilers, Oakland Raiders, New York Jets, 1960-1968
He was a remarkable player at his position. A dynamite tackler and superb defender versus the pass. He was the best at his position in the AFL!
Ron Wolf, Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2015 – Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Green Bay Packers, New York Jets Personnel Director & General Manager, 1963-2001
AUTHORS & FOOTBALL HISTORIANS
Without reservation I highly recommend Johnny Robinson for induction into the Hall of Fame. His character and football ability are top drawer.
Harvey Frommer, Author of “When It Was Just A Game; Remembering the First Super Bowl”
All you need to know about Johnny Robinson’s candidacy for the Pro Football Hall of Fame is this: He was called by all-time great receiver Lance Alworth the “best defensive back I ever played against” and he redefined the position of free safety, according to the late Jack Kemp, an astute student of the game who guided the Buffalo Bills to back-to-back American Football League championships in 1964-65.
Ed Gruver, Author of “The American Football League; A Year-by-Year History, 1960-1969”
Johnny Robinson was not just an outstanding safety who played all 10 years of the AFL. As the league’s talent got significantly better, he stepped up his performance.
Bob Lederer, Author of “Beyond Broadway Joe; The Super Bowl Team That Changed Football”
Johnny Robinson, as one of the great defensive backs in pro football history, deserves a spot in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. It’s not just because of his remarkable interception record, picking off 57 passes in 10 years as a safety, but also his uncanny intelligence as the air-traffic controller on the great Chiefs’ defense of the ’60s and early ’70s. Blessed with agility, grit, instincts and composure, he was one of the defining players of his era, justly earning his spot on the All-Time AFL team. All that’s left is his much-deserved bust next to his peers in Canton.
Michael MacCambridge, Author of “America’s Game” and “Lamar Hunt; A Life in Sports”
How the Hall of Fame voters could possibly have overlooked Johnny Robinson all these years is simply mind-boggling. A quick perusal of Johnny’s resume shows clearly that if he were playing in today’s game of fantasy leagues, flashy highlight shows and gaudy stats, he would be a Hall-of-Famer in his first year of eligibility. Consider that Johnny was a six-time All-Pro, played in seven All-Star or Pro-Bowl games, was a member of three AFL championship teams and one Super Bowl winning team, led the league in interceptions twice (both times in double figures), and is 13th on the all-time interceptors list more than 40 years after playing his last NFL game. Astounding! It’s time for the voters to give this man his due place in the hallowed halls of Canton!
Jeffrey J. Miller, Author of “Rocking the Rockpile: The Buffalo Bills of the American Football League” and
“100 Things Bills Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die”
Safety Johnny Robinson was the ultimate defensive back in NFL history. He was the quarterback of the secondary who led the NFL with 10 interceptions in 1966, and a reason why the Chiefs appeared in Super Bowl I.
Lou Sahadi, Author of “Len Dawson; Pressure Quarterback” and “They’re Playing My Game
There are many people who have said that Johnny Robinson is one of the greatest safeties to ever play in the modern era. He was certainly among the best to play as he was voted to the All-Time AFL team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame and to the Pro Football Hall of Fame Combined Team of the Decade 1960s. He is recognized by many as redefining the role of safety in modern professional football.
Johnny Robinson was a converted running back – flanker who adapted to the role of safety effortlessly. Coach Stram needed his leadership on defense and Robinson brought it. Stram had coached at the University of Miami and knew Robinson’s defensive play from when Miami played LSU in 1958. LSU went on to win the National Championship. Robinson started on both sides of the ball during college. He was starting right halfback and starting safety. The first year that Stram placed him at safety he led the team to the 1962 AFL Championship that season. Robinson would twice lead the AFL/NFL in interceptions and cemented himself as the master of the position. The statistics that Robinson accrued were impressive. Robinson was a seven-time First Team All Pro, two-time Second Team All Pro along with seven Pro Bowls. His fifty-seven career interceptions are most impressive considering that he only played ten years on defense since his first two years were playing offense. Robinson led the defensive core to three AFL Championships and a Super Bowl win making an interception in each game. Quarterbacks avoided him, and it is no stretch to say that offenses worked their systems around him. He was the coach on the field for the defense.
Everyone that knows football knows that turnovers can be big game changers. When Johnny Robinson intercepted a pass, his team went 35-1-1. That is evidence of a dominant player and a true game breaker. Johnny Robinson’s career was impressive by any measure just ask the men who played with him and against him. It is time for Johnny Robinson to be recognized for his accomplishments to professional football as one of its premier position players. He was voted to the Pro Football Hall of Fame AFL All-Time Team, the Pro Football Hall of Fame Combined Team of the Decade 1960’s, Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Fame and the Kansas City Chiefs All-Time Team.
Johnny Robinson is the only member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame Combined Team of the Decade 1960s to not have a bust in Canton, now that Jerry Kramer has been inducted.
“How the Hall of Fame voters could possibly have overlooked Johnny Robinson all these years is simply mind-boggling.”
Well they haven’t exactly overlooked him since he’s been a finalist 6 times. That’s why I’d prioritize Chuck Howley. I support Robinson’s HoF induction and think he and Howley are a cut above the rest, but Howley has never been a finalist and has never gotten to have his case heard. THAT’S mind boggling.
Hopefully, the Senior voters will look at Johnny Robinson like Jerry Kramer who was a finalist 11 times and a Senior Candidate twice. Lots of support for Johnny Robinson from players, and others this year. Too much of a resume to leave out. I do agree about not letting the man hang there as the only first team all-decade player not inducted from the ’60s. Chuck Howley for 2020 hands down, then Cliff Harris for 2021, but probably won’t be two Cowboys back to back. Such a tough job for the voters. Get Robinson out of the way this time and move on to the 1970’s .
Johnny Robinson would be my first choice in 2019. Then Maxie Baughan would be next and Cliff Harris, but not before Robinson,
To me it’s just as bad that they would consider Johnny so good for 6 straight times. That leads me to think their was a few people with AFL bias that wouldn’t let go if it. So why not reconsider all these years later when the bias has been largely removed? At least Mr. Howley wasn’t given false hope. And than they rub salt into it by electing his protege 1/5 Emmit Thomas to the HOF first.
No both are really bad IMO and need to be rectified soon.
Interception are important to good teams. Not as important to bad teams still noteworthy of a players skill. Maybe the fact that 0/1 Ken Riley had so many ints. for mainly low profile crummy teams is the reason he isn’t getting the love? Still he had 9 ints. for a 10-4 team and couldn’t make the Pro Bowl. lol Maybe it was the misfortune of playing in era with Jimmy Johnson, Willie Brown, Mel Blount, Mike Haynes etc.. HMM. Mel Blount is a 2/5 same as Jake Scott. lol Not saying Scott could hold Blount’s jock. Just shows that a 2/6 like Kooch could be better than we think by his profile. So how low do we go on the accolade totem pole? lol I guess the answer is John Riggins 1/1. And why is it better to play 14 years and be a 2/5 vs. 9 years ?
I’m a fan of Pro Reference’s AV but I’m aware it doesn’t always reflect the better player. For example here’s a shocker, 0/4 Clay Matthews is the highest rated player in Cleveland Brown’s history with an AV of 137 having played 19 years with 69 sacks, 16 ints, 27 FF’s and 1561 tackles and having won nothing. 8/9 Jim Brown perhaps still the greatest running back in NFL history is second with an AV of 122 (only 24pts higher than Jake Scott). Hmm 4/8 Emmitt Smith is 170. Trying to figure out what AV weighs heaviest. Must be years played? And maybe winning to a lesser degree?
Robert, that really encouraging for Johnny Robinson’s cause. I’ll pass it onto his nephew.
Rasputin, I’ll only say Terry Bradshaw had a good day passing in SB. 35 pts was the most points Dallas gave up all year which showed how impressive Dallas was that year. Ranked 3rd in Pass D supports what you say to a degree about Harris. Jake Scott retired at the same age 33 but what I saw from Scott he was pretty much shot at the end. He could still cover Ok but he had lost his physicality, maybe desire. Not sure Harris had as much left as you think but he certainly was aging better.
Bachs, I should of said Dolphin players of the 70’s. want to reconsider? lol
Just teasing you Bachs! :)
http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/28777-2/
vote your support for one of 10 players. Can you guess who I voted for? LOL
Opps, sorry I guess you guys already found this list. Never mind!! lol
Robert, your post was sent directly to Johnny. I’m sure he’ll enjoy reading the comments Thanks.
I have a picture of Johnny I wanted to share. Anyone know how to post a picture here that I have as in email? I tried to copy image and image address also as a thumbnail. Where are Tony and Andy? lol
Tony, the anti-Cowboys bias was as bad or worse than what you call the anti-AFL bias. At least the latter could be rooted in legitimate football reasoning, that the AFL was a league of expansion teams in 1960 (an indisputable fact) and not on par with the NFL for most of the 1960s, though some voters may have taken it too far and underrated AFL players or even held emotional animus against the league (certainly Jack Kemp and Johnny Robinson should have been inducted long ago).
By contrast the anti-Cowboys bias was entirely malicious and inappropriate. It was purely emotional and not rooted in football reasoning at all. Now that’s IT may have diminished some it’s long past time for Howley to finally get his first chance to have his case heard.
As for Cliff Harris, if you watch those 2 four point SBs it was more the CBs getting worked on, usually on the sidelines and sometimes even when Harris was blitzing. Harris had a great day in SB XII though when the Cowboys held the Broncos to a SB record low 35 net passing yards and he personally knocked Denver’s best playmaker that day (All Decade returner/WR Rick Upchurch) unconscious with a clean hit. Harris also had a pretty good day against Jake Scott’s Dolphins in SB VI when Dallas held Miami without a TD, still the only team to ever do that to a SB opponent. And what makes that sudden rank plunge after he retired more telling is that in 1979 fellow great safety Charlie Waters was out all year with an injury when Harris helped keep the Cowboys pass defense ranked in the top 3. One can’t really knock Cliff Harris’ impact. It was huge.
Gotta bring up SB VI!! How did we go from the end of Harris’ career to 1971? All you Cowboy fans are alike. LOL Maybe Cowboy Fans and Media always telling everyone how great their Team was caused some of the bias? :) You would of thought they won all of the Super Bowls. I don’t blame the players for that one bit.
Other than Howley and Harris and maybe Pearson (I like him personally but can see drawbacks) and Green (another with relatively unimpressive ints, maybe they avoided him but I doubt with Renfro on the other side. Cool name!). I’m not seeing a lot of players outright being snubbed. Every great team usually has two or three. When did the bias take place? The best ones are in but for Howley. I wouldn’t say any Dolphin experiencing bias except for Scott not even getting consideration or being put on All 70’s second Team.
I never thought Dallas had a very good OL so no bias there. And the one HOFer Rayfield Wright, despite his profile I questioned his selection at the time. I mean it’s ok now but he never stood out to me in all the time I watched him at RT except he was bigger than everyone else and played on America’s Team. :) Roger still ran for his life much of the time. Do they even put RT’s in the HOF anymore? LOL
What a great story on Johnny Robinson that I just read on Talk of Fame by Clark Judge. What a life story and what a man. He should be in Hall of Fame of Life much less the Pro Football Hall of Fame. There is you poster boy HOF!
Dr Z wrote about the anti-bias and resigned as a voter when Bob Hayes finally made as senior candidate and was turned down. A group of voters in the 1970s and into early 1990s blocked modern candidacies of Harris, Howley and Pearson, delayed Renfro until his last year on ballot, and pushed Wright into the seniors pool. Harris was not a modern finalist until his final year only needed final vote but was turned down and thrown into the deep seniors pool. I challenge anyone to track multiple deserving players from the same team who never made modern finalist and had several who did on their last year with few elected and others tossed into the seniors pool. Harris and Pearson are 1st team all decade players, neither seriously considered. Wright and Renfro were multiple all pro and pro bowl players with elections delayed by decades. And Howley has a profile that deserved at least a chance as a modern finalist with a 5/5 profile but never was.
For the 2004 election the rules at the time allowed for up to 5 modern candidates, Wright and Hayes made the final five (advanced from voting elimination rounds from 15-10 and 10-5). So they had support, and as final 5 they were not competing against any other players as rules allowed for election if all five and both were denied (only 2 moderns were elected that year). Some voters realized how bad that decision was that members of the seniors committee would select Wright in 2006 and Hayes in 2009 getting both finally elected. Along with holding a 4x all pro 10x pro bowl in Renfro until his final year as modern candidate (just imagine social media outrage today if that happened to a player!) are the best examples of cowboy anti-bias among several voters in what was then a 36 member committee requiring 32 votes for election so only took an organized effort by a hand full of voters.
I brought up SB VI (24-3) because you threw in those tweaks about Cliff Harris and SB XIII. You deserved it. :) Dallas was actually famous for consistently having a great offensive line, LOL. Talk of Fame radio even recently had an interview with Steeler Jack Ham talking about how much better the Cowboys’ O-Line was than their other opponents’. So I have to say your claim there is the opposite of the truth. At the height of the Landry era that O-Line was an efficient machine and loaded with deserving Pro Bowlers, including 60s All Decade OT Ralph Neely and 6 time Pro Bowler John Niland, one of the most dominant guards of his era. The Landry era line was both great at run blocking and mobile enough to execute screen passes. In fact well run screens became a Dallas staple in the 70s. Roger ran for his life more because of his own aggressiveness, either trying to prolong plays or scrambling. And I hate to say it, but you compel me to point out that the Cowboys racked up a Super Bowl record 252 rushing yards in……………Super Bowl VI. That was a committee performance so not bad for the O-line.
Not every team has “two or three” EQUALLY DESERVING HoF candidates, and the anti-Cowboys bias was clear in a variety of ways, from direct comments to Mel Renfro (10 consecutive Pro Bowls) having to wait until his final year of eligibility for induction to Dallas only having 5 HoFers until the late 2000s despite their unparalleled success on the field. That was inexcusable. In 2004 3 Cowboys were finalists, Bob Hayes, Rayfield Wright, and Cliff Harris. Harris made it to the final 10 but Hayes and Wright made it to the final 6. They could have enshrined all 6. Instead they only enshrined 4, leaving off the two Cowboys. Paul Zimmerman, no Cowboys fan, threw his pen down in disgust at the bias involved and condemned it. Cliff Harris and Drew Pearson are the only first team 70s All Decade members not in the HoF. Both happen to be Cowboys. Even the punter is in the HoF at this point.
Cliff Harris might not have won all the Super Bowls but he did make it to 4 as a starter and his team made it to 5 in the 1970s. They played in 12 conference championships in 17 years and posted an NFL record 20 consecutive winning seasons, 18 of them playoff years. That took a lot of great players over three different decades.
Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson should have been in long ago. We should be discussing other players by now who are closer to the equivalent of the “3 or 4” guys other teams advocate for, the more borderline guys like Dave Robinson, Fred Dean, John Stallworth, etc. that other franchises manage to get into Canton seemingly randomly from time to time. Some of these candidates include Don Perkins (the best 60s RB and maybe the best senior RB not already in), Lee Roy Jordan, Harvey Martin, Too Tall Jones, Cornell Green, George Andrie, some of those O-linemen you dismissed like Neely and Niland, and some others, including now Everson Walls (since you love interceptions so much, LOL). Inducting those 3 top Cowboys is the minimum that would finally leave the legacy of the anti-Cowboys bias behind and basically get the team caught up to where it should be so we could proceed normally from there.
I see Paul already stole some of my thunder, LOL.
Not sure when I tweaked Harris? He belongs in the HOF. I just came back with an argument for my guy.
i got the fire and fury I expected. lol I was just sticking the needle in a little. :) Paul’s been really quite lately. lol
I was a little hard on Mr. Wright. :) I just don’t remember him standing out much to me . I remember Calvin Hill galloping up the middle a lot. And than Newhouse on screens. I don’t remember Duane Thomas at all because I have blocked out SB Vi. lol Plus I wasn’t watching the NFL until the 1971 Playoffs when I fell in love with the Dolphins beating the Chiefs in the longest game. I might of seen the Oilers on TV before that but they were really bad. I hear Rayfield was a great pass protector at a position that played the best pass rusher unlike today. I apologize. lol
And I have no doubt that during 70s and 80s with only 36 PFHOF voters a small group could have had bias against other teams or even individual player(s) but as we pointed out the 2004 election process was appalling as was the delay in electing Wright. Plus given the number of annual elections in which the maximum slots were not filled, plus some questionable senior nominations, electing Renfro, Wright, Harris, Pearson and Hayes could have come without impacting or delaying other deserving players elections. It was unprofessional and petty and I suspect a factor in the PFHOF Board increasing number of voters with more diversity of viewers and younger fresh perspectives along with natural succession over time as older crowd rotated off, plus two PFHOFers as voters so as to make voting blocks harder to create.
I was wrong about the Dallas OL. While I don’t remember a real standout they were very good as a unit and finish near the top of the run game every year even between the Calvin Hill end and Dorsett start when they did it by committee with Robert Newhouse leading the way. Of course Cowboy fans know this. lol I didn’t realize they gained so many yards outside of Calvin Hill’s but they aways had good contribution which is impressive. Paul set me straight on Cowboy bias. I stand corrected. on both counts :)
Cowboy RB Dan Reeves spoke at my High School sport banquet in 1979. He had a couple really good years. Than what happen? He sure didn’t get much playing time. Did he get injured?
Yep injuries ended his career early and forced him into young retirement
Huh. he was a good speaker. He always credited Coach Landry. All of Landry’s players were very vocal in their praise for him. Just like Vince Lombardi. That seems rare. They were really high character people. I think I said before even though I rooted like heck against the Cowboys I watch The Tom Landry every Sunday Morning. I like him and he had a wry humor not many would guess. A true gentleman. Ok that’s the extent of my Cowboy praise for a while. I’m feeling ill. LOL
Dan Reeves led the NFL with 16 TDs in 1966. That stood as the franchise record until Emmitt Smith broke it in 1992. Reeves was versatile. Eight of his 1966 TDs came from rushing and the other eight came from receiving.
And yes obviously I have favoritism towards Cowboys players, many of whom I watched play over the last 40 years as a fan. But unlike others I am not advocating for numerous Cowboys players that may have a case for the PFHOF, but who would be considered a long shot by many peoples definition including my own (for example, Harvey Martin). In fact I would group Howley, Pearson, and Harris into a collection of deserving seniors (all decade players etc..) that I make just as strong pleas for including Robinson, Kramer, Gradishar, Meador, Wistert, Branch and others. Plus each year with the modern candidates I pull for those who have been finalist for the longest periods as they deserve election after having been considered and deemed a finalist repeatedly, in the past that has included Greene, Harrison, Haley, TBrown, AReed, Monk, Zimmerman and now includes Lynch and Faneca (although I think among the returning 2018 modern finalists I suspect Boselli and Law could get in sooner).
I just do not like what I would call “reach” selections, especially from the seniors pool or quick advancement of new modern candidates over returning candidates equally deserving, but held back again. In my view for 2018 Urlacker could have waited a year or two, while one of the OL finalists elected-but that is just me.
In case Paul was referencing me, to be clear I wasn’t advocating for that broader list of Cowboys I posted earlier, at least not that they should have priority. In fact I described them as “borderline” and posted them to underscore that it would be a mistake to assume Dallas only has the 3 I have been advocating for and that those 3 are equivalent to the top 3 or 4 that other teams have. If you look at several of those borderline candidates I listed you’ll see that they stack up similar to a lot of recent inductees from other teams. The 3 Cowboys I have been advocating for are at or near the top of the senior pool heap.
Was not intending to reference you, but the other vocal Cowboys fans and supporters who appear on social media with 10+ names of Cowboys they feel strongly should be in the PFHOF immediately as they all have been missed over the years
It’s just that I think consistently and repeatedly focusing on advocating for the top 3 who are clearly most deserving is a better approach than expanding that last by justifying players for further consideration by comparing them to weak PFHOF senior enshrinees- but that is just my opinion
Yeah, that’s partly why I adopted that strategy a decade ago. Also those 3, Howley, Harris, and Pearson, are especially glaring omissions in the overall senior pool. Plus inducting all 3, as long as it happens soon, would alter the franchise numbers in such a way that I’d be willing to say we’ve finally moved beyond the legacy of the anti-Cowboys bias and have gotten the team caught back up. From that point I’d adopt a more relaxed attitude toward HoF issues and view the Cowboys HoF situation as normalized.
I’ve run into more than one person lately who’s tried to diminish those Cowboys’ cases by flippantly claiming that every team has 3-4 players they feel the same way about. That most teams actually DON’T have 3 candidates like those top 3 Dallas players was the point I was illustrating by posting the next tier of Cowboys players who are more equivalent to what those teams have on top.
Speaking of former Cowboys. I just saw that TO will not be mentioned induction night and his Gold jacket will be mailed out the following day. I wonder if he will regret this decision. I doubt they will be broadcasting his ceremony from UT_-Chattanooga. I rooted for the guy because I always root for greatness regardless of team. He was a great football player. Not a great individual. I’m glad I don’t have to root for him anymore.
Hey if you do not attend your college graduation (including earning MD or PhD-highest academic honors and recognition) your name is not announced at the event. So perhaps PFHOF is being petty and vindictive but it is their event and why recognize and acknowledgement someone who choose not to attend. And before everyone makes a big deal of this. look are their any supporters for TO and his decision not to attend in the league, his former teammates and perhaps more importantly his PFHOF class and other current PFHOFers? And no this will not create a danger of a precedent, evidenced by the fact that TO is first ever living PFHOFer to not attend his enshirement, shows how others respect and acknowledge the honor, their PFHOF classmates and the 100s of PFHOF staff and 1000s of local volunteers who throw a great week long series of events for the PFHOFers. In my view all TO is doing to cementing his legacy of a selfish attitude we all knew he already had.
I repeatedly hear that refrain that every team has 3-4 just as deserving senior candidates, especially from PFHOF voters and the rotating senior committee members, and I doubt that is the case. My extended list of top deserving and legitimate senior candidates is perhaps 25-30names, not 32×3=96 or even if we go back to 28 teams 28×3=84-no way deserving senior candidate pool is that large, especially if we set a minimum at some combination of 1-2 all pro selections, 3+ pro bowls, and all decade team selections. I have no doubt that pre 1980 teams likely have each have 1-2 but that only gets us to 28-56 and I suspect 56 is still on the way high side of that number.
So I didn’t think the Owen’s bust reveal mattered and Hall decides none of it mattered. lmao! I think it’s the right move although I would of been OK with more of an acknowledgement. The move is a deterrent to this being a precedent if that was ever even real. It’s hard to imagine a more disruptive personality than TO being a HOFer in the Team sport. At least I hope not. lol
I applaud Rasputin’s reasonable and pragmatic approach in limiting his focus to the most deserving Cowboy candidates in Howley, Harris, and Pearson. Too many folks seem to think any halfway competent player from their franchise are egregious HoF snubs. ‘Skins, Raiders, and Broncos boosters are especially guilty of this problem, but it’s rife.
In fact, I’m hard-pressed to come up with too many other franchises who have 3 or utter “musts” other than the Cowboys. Back later on that.
As for TO, screw him. No class.
I agree with much of what’s being said but if we include Drew Pearson (who I support) with a “3/3 profile” as a “must” than IMO it likely brings too many other players into that conversation. In other words going too profile low tilts the “must” too much towards being eye of the beholder. Can we say there needs to be X number of PB’s and or X number AP’s at the point of “must”? I would think PB’s would be the best barometer. It kind of feels like six PB’s gets universal respect. After that maybe you can be a must with one AP? two? That would automatically rule out Jake Scott as a ‘must” . It would include Bob Kuechenberg and he’s the Dolphin I have the most support for. I guess I could go with that.
I don’t know, Probably will always be an eye of the beholder deal. Just can’t go too black and white I suppose. :) Gives football fans plenty to debate. lol
Raider fans would likely say Cliff Branch, Lester Hayes, Jim Plunkett, Steve Wisniewski and Todd Christensen are musts.
Tony as to Drew Pearson since he is a member of a first team all decade team I would have no problem with every other all decade team member getting that same consideration
and I agree several teams including the Broncos and Raiders also have 3-4 deserving player candidates as do a few other teams, I just doubt that every of the pre 1990s 28 teams also has that many
Yeah, I’ve got Drew Pearson as the 3rd ranked senior era Cowboy but to me it’s his combination of 3 first team All Pro selections at a high value position, first team All Decade status, Super Bowl ring, and key contribution to some of the greatest plays in NFL history that make him a lock on merit. No one said the Cowboys are the only ones with a player who’s a glaring omission, but most other teams don’t have 3 on the same level.
Thanks, bachslunch. To illustrate your point about some fans, this is a direct quote from the Redskins page that flooded traffic to vote for Jacoby on ToF:
“And as every single Redskins fan knows, Jacoby deserves this more than anyone else.”
https://www.redskins.com/news/vote-joe-jacoby-the-most-deserving-senior-candidate-for-pro-football-hall-of-fam
Really, LOL? I’m not even sure he was the most deserving Redskin in that poll, let alone the most deserving NFL player in the entire senior pool.
Re Raiders, I’m fine with Cliff Branch and Dave Grayson for sure, and Lester Hayes, Steve Wisniewski (not a Senior), and Todd Christensen as varying degrees of “on the fence,” won’t complain either way. But of course they also stump for Jim Plunkett, Tom Flores, and Dave Dalby, among others, who simply don’t belong in.
Re Broncos: fine with Randy Gradishar and probably Lionel Taylor (the only Seniors of the bunch), Karl Mecklenburg (who is likely to join them), and Steve Atwater. On fence with Louis Wright (Senior)
Re ‘Skins: yes for Gene Brito, on the fence for Joe Jacoby, less than excited about Larry Brown, no on Pat Fischer
Eagles: yes for Al Wistert, Maxie Baughan, Harold Carmichael, on fence for Bill Bergey
Bengals: yes for Ken Anderson, Lemar Parrish. No on Ken Riley
Browns: yes for Mac Speedie, Jim Ray Smith
Rams: yes for Harold Jackson, Riley Matheson, Eddie Meador, Duane Putnam, maybe Nolan Cromwell. No on Isiah Robertson
Cardinals: yes for Duke Slater, on fence for Ken Gray, no on Marshall Goldberg
Chiefs: yes for Johnny Robinson, Jim Tyrer, Deron Cherry, Ed Budde, and maybe Jerry Mays, on fence for Otis Taylor
Packers: yes for Lavvie Dilweg, Verne Lewellen, Bobby Dillon, Billy Howton, Bill Forester, on fence for Gale Gillingham
Lions: yes for Ox Emerson, Alex Karras, probably Roger Brown
Niners: yes on Tommy Davis, Billy Wilson, Abe Woodson. On fence at best with Roger Craig
Bears: yes for Dick Barwegen, Joe Fortunato
Vikings: yes for Joey Browner, on fence with Ed White. No on Jim Marshall.
Cowboys: yes for Chuck Howley, Drew Pearson, Cliff Harris, on fence with Cornell Green, John Niland
Giants: yes for Del Shofner, Jimmy Patton, no for Charlie Conerly
Colts: yes for Bobby Boyd, on fence with Gene Lipscomb
Chargers: yes on Walt Sweeney, Earl Faison
Patriots: yes for Houston Antwine
Bills: yes for Tom Sestak and probably George Saimes. On fence with Mike Stratton. Add Fred Smerlas soon
Steelers: yes on L.C. Greenwood and probably Donnie Shell. No on Andy Russell
Jets: yes on Winston Hill, Mark Gastineau, Art Powell, Larry Grantham, probably Joe Klecko
Dolphins: on fence with Bob Kuechenberg
Now which of those are top 15, especially if we were to prioritize the old but still living?
good work bachslunch! Not sure I would agree with all of them but that is a pretty good complete list, and numbers would look like this:
Raiders: 2-4
Broncos: 3-4
‘Skins: 2-3
Eagles: 3-4
Bengals: 2-3
Browns: 2
Rams: 3-4
Cardinals:2-3
Chiefs: 3-4 (seems high to me)
Packers: 5 (seems high to me)
Lions: 2-3
Niners: 3-4
Bears: 2
Vikings: 2
Cowboys: 3
Giants: 1
Colts: 1-2
Chargers: 2
Patriots: 1
Bills: 2-3
Steelers: 2
Jets: 5
Dolphins:1
so 23 teams total; 55 to 70 total (call it 2-3 per team), higher then I would have guessed, maybe the comment that each team (at least pre 1980 teams) have 3-4 deserving is not that far off?
Why list is a little more “selective” – and only counting current or soon to be seniors
Raiders: Cliff Branch, Grayson, Lester Hayes, Todd Christensen
Broncos: Randy Gradishar, Lionel Taylor, Karl Mecklenburg,
‘Skins: Gene Brito, Joe Jacoby, Larry Brown
Eagles: Al Wistert, Maxie Baughan, Harold Carmichael
Bengals: Ken Anderson, Lemar Parrish, Ken Riley
Browns: Mac Speedie, Jim Ray Smith
Rams: Eddie Meador
Cardinals: Duke Slater
Chiefs: Johnny Robinson, Jim Tyrer, Deron Cherry, Ed Budde, Otis Taylor
Packers: Lavvie Dilweg, Bobby Dillon, Billy Howton
Lions: yes for Ox Emerson, Alex Karras, Roger Brown
Niners: Tommy Davis, Abe Woodson, Roger Craig
Bears: Dick Barwegen, Joe Fortunato
Vikings: Joey Browner, Jim Marshall.
Cowboys: Chuck Howley, Drew Pearson, Cliff Harris
Giants: Del Shofner, Jimmy Patton
Colts: Bobby Boyd, Gene Lipscomb
Chargers: Walt Sweeney, Earl Faison
Patriots: yes for Houston Antwine
Bills: Tom Sestak
Steelers: L.C. Greenwood Donnie Shell
Jets: Winston Hill, Mark Gastineau, Art Powell, Larry Grantham, Joe Klecko
Dolphins: Bob Kuechenberg
my top 15 seniors (feel pretty good about 12 or 13, last few could have gone a few different ways, but I feel pretty good about this list:
G – Bob Kuechenberg 2/6/70s-80s
T- Joe Jacoby 2(1)/4, 80s
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s-80s
WR-Drew Pearson 3/3/70s
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s-80s
DE – L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s
DL Joe Klecko 2/4
LB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
LB- Mike Curtis 2/4/60s-70s
LB- Randy Gradishar 5/7
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s
CB – Lester Hayes 1/5/70s 80s
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s
Except the top “3 or 4” for each team aren’t all on the same level, Tony. Your own top 15 has 3 Cowboys and rightly so I think. Even just posting Bachslunch’s top 30 from his top 70 list above looks like this in team breakdown:
Bears – Dick Barwegen
Bengals – Ken Anderson
Broncos – Randy Gradishar
Browns – Jim Ray Smith, Mac Speedie
Cardinals – Duke Slater
Chargers – Walt Sweeney
Chiefs – Johnny Robinson, Jim Tyrer
Cowboys – Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, Drew Pearson
Eagles – Al Wistert, Maxie Baughan
49ers – Tommy Davis
Giants – Jimmy Patton
Jets – Winston Hill
Lions – Ox Emerson, Alex Karras
Packers – Lavvie Dilweg, Billy Howton, Verne Lewellen, Bobby Dillon
Raiders – Dave Grayson, Cliff Branch
Rams – Harold Jackson, Del Shofner, Riley Matheson
Redskins – Lemar Parrish, Gene Brito
Only 17 teams even have one such player (at least primarily affiliated with that team) and 8 of those only have 1. Six others only have 2. Only 3 teams have more than 2 such players: the Cowboys, Packers, and Rams. The Packers and Rams are older than dirt; the Packers even predated the NFL as an independent club, LOL.
The Cowboys were only founded in 1960. It’s amazing that they have such a chronologically tight concentration of high level glaring HoF omissions. As for the expanded list, if we’re discussing players like Larry Brown I think Don Perkins is roughly as deserving. Cornell Green is in the ballpark of Lester Hayes or Ken Riley. John Niland and Ralph Neely have resumes similar to Jim Ray Smith’s and some of the other mentioned O-linemen. Harvey Martin and George Andrie aren’t outclassed by Ed Sprinkle or HoFer Fred Dean. Neither is Too Tall for that matter (watch old game footage). Lee Roy Jordan is at least roughly in the ballpark of Tommy Nobis.
Those other Cowboys are currently overshadowed by Howley, Harris, and Pearson in the backlog, but they’re the type of “3 or 4” candidates we’d be discussing in lists like these if the 3 more glaring Dallas omissions were already in.
Whoops I meant to say Paul’s list, not Tony’s.
We’d also be discussing Everson Walls. Not at the top of the heap like Howley, Harris, and Pearson, but a solid candidate who led the NFL in interceptions a record 3 years, since tied only by Ed Reed, and has a SB ring. My point is the Cowboys could get their glaring 3 omissions inducted and still have the same kind of “3 or 4” players to discuss that mostly fill out the lists of people who claim every team has “3 or 4” players worthy of discussion.
Good lists! I reviewed your first list for hours lol and I added a few but mostly subtracted. It was really tough leaving some of my all time favorites off and saying no to generation old player. i tried my best to eliminate personal wanting.
Must be in the HOF
Raiders: Cliff Branch
Broncos: Randy Gradishar
‘Skins: none
Eagles: Al Wistert, Maxie Baughan and Harold Jackson
Bengals: Ken Anderson and Lemar Parrish
Browns: Dick Schafrath, Gene Hickerson and Mac Speedie
Rams: Eddie Meador
Cardinals: Duke Slater
Chiefs: Johnny Robinson and Jim Tyrer
Packers: none
Lions : Alex Karras and Roger Brown
Niners:: Roger Craig
Bears: Dick Barwegen
Vikings: Joey Browner
Cowboys: Chuck Howley, Drew Pearson, Cliff Harris and Harvey Martin
Giants: Phil Simms and Jimmy Patton
Colts: Mike Curtis
Chargers: Walt Sweeney
Patriots: none
Bills: none
Steelers: L.C. Greenwood and Donnie Shell
Jets: Larry Grantham
Dolphins: Bob Kuechenberg and Jake Scott
This comes from the Bleacher Report site talking about the best Dolphins not in the HOF. Tells why Jake Scott left Georgia and some other interesting tidbits,
Jake Scott
When the Dolphins grabbed Scott in the seventh round of the 1970 draft, Miami player personnel director Joe Thomas proclaimed the team had gotten first-round talent for seventh-round cash. Scott had been an All-American player who is now on the 50th Anniversary All-Time SEC Team.
Scott came in from one season with the BC Lions of the Canadian Football League. He left the University of Georgia as a junior because Vince Dooley had brokered a deal for his team to play in the Sugar Bowl, a lesser game at the time, despite the Bulldog players having voted to play in the Orange Bowl.
Dooley had long called Scott the greatest athlete he ever coached, which includes men like Herschel Walker, but their disagreement led Scott to decline induction into the College Football Hall of Fame because Dooley was involved. Scott joined the Dolphins despite making $10,000 less than he had made in the CFL.
He started right away at free safety and returned punts full time with the team. He picked off five balls for a career-long 112 yards while returning 27 punts. He took one ball 77 yards for a touchdown
The Dolphins’ safety tandem of Scott and Dick Anderson was quickly becoming the best in the NFL. Both were supremely intelligent and athletic, capable of playing either safety slot at a Pro-Bowl level.
This versatility gave Miami an advantage few teams have ever enjoyed in NFL history. The 1971 season saw Scott lead the NFL in punt return yards, getting 318 on 33 returns.
He also intercepted seven balls, which led the team and helped Scott earn his first of five consecutive Pro Bowl nods. The Dolphins would get all the way to the Super Bowl that year before losing to the Dallas Cowboys.
He severely broke his left hand on the helmet of Kansas City Chiefs fullback Jim Otis in the 1971 AFC Championship Game, then he would break his right wrist early in Super Bowl VI.
This led to both hands in heavy casts and the famous Scott quip, “Now I find out who my real friends are when I go to the bathroom.”
The Dolphins’ 1972 season was one that all teams head into striving for, but only this team actually accomplished. They led the NFL in both offense and defense while going undefeated the entire year. Scott returned less punts that year because Charlie Leigh took most of the attempts.
Miami also had Scott playing strong safety often, and it led to five interceptions. He hurt his shoulder so bad, that heading into Super Bowl VII, prognosticators favored the Washington Redskins because the word was that Scott would be unable to play.
Not only was he able to play, but Scott became the first defensive back, and just second defensive player, to ever be named Super Bowl MVP.
In a defensive battle where ball possession reigned supreme, the Dolphins outlasted Washington 14-7 in the lowest scoring game in Super Bowl history. Scott intercepted a pass on the Redskins’ first possession, then picked off a second in a crucial moment in the fourth quarter.
On a Billy Kilmer pass intended for Hall of Fame wide receiver Charley Taylor, Scott picked off the ball in the end zone and took it 55 yards.That would set up the famous “Garo’s Gaffe,” when Dolphins’ kicker Garo Yepremian would throw an interception that resulted in the Redskins only points.
Miami would reach their third consecutive Super Bowl in 1973, a year that saw Scott named First Team All-Pro on a defense that gave up only 10.7 points per game all season. Scott handled the return duties in Super Bowl VIII and recovered two fumbles in the Dolphins 24-7 win over the Minnesota Vikings.
When Dolphin legends Larry Csonka, Jim Kiick and Paul Warfield bolted for the fledgling World Football League in 1974, Scott bluffed Miami by saying he also had an offer. The Dolphins quickly signed him to a five-year contract for $600,000, making him the first defensive back in NFL history to make at least $100,000 per season.
He rewarded Miami by intercepting a career-best eight passes, earning his second First Team All-Pro honors while playing most of the year at free safety. He also returned 31 punts for 346 yards. He was named NFL Defensive Back of the Year by Football Digest.
Scott and Dolphins head coach Don Shula were so close that Shula’s son wore Scott’s jersey number when playing football because Scott was his hero.
When the Dolphins brilliant defensive coordinator, Bill Arnsparger, left Miami after the 1973 season to become head coach of the New York Giants, several Dolphins defenders, including Scott, were unhappy that Vince Costello was chosen as the replacement.
Costello was replaced by Don Doll after one year. Playing under Doll, he enjoyed his final Pro Bowl seasons in 1975 after six interceptions. Rookie wide receiver Freddie Soloman handled the punt return duties instead of Scott that season.
One practice in 1974 had Scott telling Costello he didn’t know what he was talking about. When Shula interjected, the pair had words. This carried over into 1976, when Shula wanted Scott to play a preseason game even though the safety said his shoulder was hurting too much.
When Scott refused to shoot pain-killing medicine into his shoulder, the coach and safety argued so much that Scott was quickly traded to the Washington Redskins for safety Bryan Salter. Salter lasted six games with Miami before calling it a career after one more game as a Baltimore Colt that season.
Scott lasted three years with the Redskins, starting in every game that he played and missing only two games. Though Washington had him return three punts in 1976, those duties were primarily given to Pro Bowler Eddie Brown.
In his three years with Washington, Scott picked off 14 passes. He had a career-best five fumble recoveries in his first year, then picked off seven and retired at the end of the 1978 season.
He is the Dolphins all-time leader in interceptions, punt returns, and punt return yards. Scott is a member of the Dolphins Honor Roll as both an individual and member of the 1972 team.
He is definitely the greatest free safety in team history. He might not yet be inducted into Canton, but his 49 interceptions, punt return prowess and overall excellence say he surely belongs.
Ok I’ll give in and add Fred Smerlas 1/5 to my must list only because he’s a 1st team All-1980’s Tackle. I know he was a great player but it’s hard to do because I think Bob Baumhower was every bit as great despite being a very different player. Like the late great Dolphin Bill Stanfill 1/5, Baumhower’s career was cut short right in their prime’s due to injuries. I wish the HOF Committee would consider more seriously players who had injuries that make them fall just short of the norm. These two men were could of been no question HOFers. I encourage y’all to do a Google Bill Stanfill injuries. It’s one of those sad NFL stories. While I admire Tom Landry he did my Dolphin’s no favor by coining the term “no-name defense” . I believe it’s stuck in the minds of everyone to their detriment. Can’t imagine a Coach saying that today before a Super Bowl. lol
I’m also going to add 2/5 Bill Bergey who made the Pro Bowl as a rookie with Cinncy. Than we are supposedly to believe his level of play dropped off PB’s for the next 4 years? I remember how great he was and how big a deal his trade to Philly was. He only played at an Pro Bowl -All Pro level for 5 straight years after the trade. IMO it was a case of languishing in no respect Cincinnati.
Apparently there was enough respect going around in Cinncy as they were usually relevant in the early 70’s. I do remember Bergey was really good. Maybe someone else has a theory why Bill Bergey didn’t make the PB again in Bengal land ?
One of the reasons I’ve been on the fence with Ken Anderson is because his Team had such great receivers throughout the 70’s and only made 2 PB’s. He had Charlie Joiner, Issac Curtis and Bob Trumpy. But now I look at Charlie Joiner’s career and he was only in Cinncy for two years.
I know I said I would avoid criticism of players in the HOF but now that I look at Charlie Joiner’s profile I’m not overly impressed. He played forever and I never thought much when he went into the HOF. I admit he was skilled and played a very long time A lot of players are skilled Cliff Branch, Drew Pearson and Harold Jackson and can’t get a sniff. If it’s the case he was Paul Warfield great seems like he would of went into Hall almost immediately. I remember there always being a love fest with Charlie in San Diego much like the media fawned over Lynn Swann. The truth is Joiner was rarely the best receiver on his own teams IMO. Issac Curtis and John Jefferson were better.
Kellen Winslow 3/5 and Wes Chandler 1/4 better too!
Charlie Joiner got into the HoF because he played forever. He was at one point the all-time reception leader, if memory serves. He was also a possession type receiver, and WRs of this type tend not to get as much HoF love as speed burner types.
I think he’s an acceptable second tier guy, but that’s as far as it goes.
On the fence with Brito can you blame me
For me, Gene Brito is as reasonable a candidate at DE among Seniors as there is. He, Mark Gasrineau, and Earl Faison have identical 4/5/none postseason honors profiles, which is about as good as it gets here. I can also get behind L.C. Greenwood (2/6/70s). To me, at least, they are the leading options at the position now that Claude Humphrey (5/6/none) is finally enshrined.
Good point Bach how would you rank Brito Gastineau Faison greenwood
Robert, for me it’s tough to rank these folks. Faison reportedly looks good in film study, though his career is shorter than the others. Greenwood’s career is the longest, though he’s the lightest when it comes to first team all pro honors — but he’s also the only one on an all decade team. Gastineau’s career is a little short and he may not have been as good against the run as the rest. Brito’s career looks short at first glance, but you also have to note that he lost two playing years in his prime to military service.
Beats me. There’s a lot to take into consideration.
Yes Bachs I’m confused, well you know that. lol What about Jake Scott’s military time? I know, I’m about to get off him. :) Thank God right! lol
No, what confuses me is when I noticed you were bringing up 2nd Team All-Pro appearances because I never considered them much before. Now I’m looking at many Pro Bowl appearances as not a big deal especially if the player didn’t make 1st or 2nd AP very often in their careers. It’s like so what, BIG DEAL the player won a bunch of 3rd place ribbons in his position. Now my whole analysis is screwed up!!!! LOL It only makes me think now Jake Scott 5/5 is being robbed by never being in the discussion. How many players in the HOF have less than five 1st or 2nd place ribbons in the HOF? Personally when I was in school I wanted a blue or red one. :) Didn’t give a crap about a white one. It meant I was just good enough to get noticed. I suppose it’s better to be noticed out of say a 100 plus players at your position but still we are talking about the HOF. Maybe “VERY GOOD” is more acceptable than we think and some of the ones we label as “just very good” are really good enough but it’s just political BS? lmao!!
Tony, I’m not bringing up 2nd team all pro appearances. But if any organization named the player to their “first team” (except when it’s pre-1980s Sporting News), I count it: NEA, UPI, Pro Football Writers, Pro Football Focus, etc., it’s all good. As you know, I’m decidedly not an “only AP counts” person in this regard.
BTW, did Jake Scott lose years to military service? Wasn’t aware of this. Details, please, and much obliged.
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn’t aware. I was assuming. I’m not sure how I feel about most of those other media outlets. I think I tend to only want to consider AP and UPI but I’m not totally sure. Do you think as I do that an AP second team has more value than a Pro Bowl? Do you think AP is the gold standard or is their another outlet you respect more? I want to hear what you and others think. I need to form a more thoughtful opinion.
Yes, as I described before Jake Scott was in the Marine Corp during the Vietnam War years before he attended Georgia which cost him at least a couple years plus as you know when he became disenchanted (seems to be a trend with him lol) after his Junior year with HC Vince Dooley he bolted the CFL because the NFL wasn’t an option.
I tend to view AP as the gold standard but certainly understand and appreciate bachslunchs efforts to include a few others into the discussion as they do add value and worth consideration (especially pre 1990. And yes I rank a 2nd team All Pro above a Pro Bowl because at some positions 2nd team all pro is the 2nd best at that position that year versus among up to 4 (or more!) at that same position making a Pro Bowl. For PFHOF consideration I like to start with at least 2 All pro selections as the minimum (or additional annual or post season awards), I look at 5 Pro Bowls as the minimum secondary evidence. So If a player does not have a 2/5 profile, they will need additional awards (all decade, season awards, playoff or career numbers) to move up for consideration in my mind. Its not a perfect system and I doubt there is one but you have to start somewhere especially when looking at players from different eras or different positions competing for limited election slots.
I consider pro bowls to be a secondary level honor, sometimes (but perhaps not always) about equal to a 2nd team all pro selection. They’re in the mix, but I consider first team all pro selections top level in consideration.
Re other organizations and their first team all pro selections. I don’t see what distinguishes them from each other, except for pre-1980s Sporting News, where so many players were selected it was equal to an all conference squad. Note well that NEA teams were often considered in some quarters superior to all others because they relied heavily on player and coach input. But for me, I say — what makes a particular organization’s first team all pro squad inferior to the others? With the SN exception, I have no basis to think one is better or worse than another. And I emphatically do NOT think it’s good to accept only AP as the gold standard just because the Pro Football Reference website is too lazy to do any meaningful sort of hierarchy determination other than what appears to be arbitrary convenience.
Paul’s 2/5 cutoff point seems reasonable to me as a general basis, though I’m okay with allowances for good film study based exceptions. But again, not AP only here for the first number.
Very illuminating fellows and I really appreciate y’all sharing. :)
Bachs, It looks like Pro Football Reference doesn’t show the player’s awards AP, UPI, Pro Football Weekly, NEA, Football Writers and SN awards unless a player went to a pro Bowl or won AP 1st Team All Pro. I grew up reading PFW and thought they were smart and informative.
I tend to focus more on AP first team All Pro selections because picking one outfit allows for apples to apples comparisons, not because I love the AP, and the AP is at least as good a choice as any other. Better since they’ve been doing it the longest, are the most widely cited outfit (not just by PFR), and their picks for other awards like MVP are considered to be the “main” ones people pay the most attention to. The NFL holds a formal awards show each year for the AP MVP selection, making that the most official one. They’re even the traditional crowner of college football champions, retaining some cache even in this so called “playoff” era (ESPN/SEC con job). When making such comparisons I often qualify my statement as “AP”, particularly if counting others would slightly alter the results (and it would usually only be slightly if at all). I don’t dismiss awards from other outfits as irrelevant but unqualified comparative All Pro counts quickly become almost meaningless if you’re including any selection from any outfit, despite many of them not operating continuously through all eras, giving some players a hidden bump over others. Anyone can publish an “All Pro” team and whether I’m dealing with international statistics or sports awards I want to know precisely what the numbers put in front of me mean. For the same reason I roll my eyes when someone in a political debate posts some “index”……just a number…..they’ve been spoonfed, the internal makeup of which they know nothing about.
For the record PFR also lists all pro/all conference awards from other outfits lower on the page if you take time to scroll down. I certainly look at those too.
Johnny Robinson looks good this year especially since Jerry Kramer was inducted leaving Robinson the last position player on the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Combined Team of the Decade 1960s not enshrined yet. He has been a finalist six times.
High rating.
Resume:
Pro Football Hall of Fame’s AFL All-time Team
Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Combined Team of the Decade 1960s
Pro Football Hall of Fame’s First All-Pro First Team
7x First Team All-Pro
2x Second Team All-Pro
7x Pro Bowls
3x AFL Championships
Played Super Bowl I ( made 11 tackles ) and Super Bowl IV (Played with three broken ribs making interception and a fumble recovery)
Super Bowl IV Championship
2x Interception Leader of AFL and NFL
5x Interception leader of the Chiefs
57 career interceptions was team all-time record at retirement (Only played defense 10 yrs avg. 5.7) )
Chiefs were 35-1-1 record when he made an interception
Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Fame
Kansas City Chiefs All-time Team
Silver Anniversary Super Bowl Team
NFL All-time Super Bowl Team Nominee
Missouri Sports Hall of Fame
Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame
LSU Sports Hall of Fame
LSU Team of the Century
LSU 1958 Undefeated National Championship
I like all of your approaches to player evaluation. I’ll probably take from each. The one I need to incorporate more is film study. Is there a site that talks about that?
I’m thinking in the old days lol (that would be the 70’s now) the AP and UPI were pretty even in respect at least in College Football ranking. If memory serves me right Alabama and USC split the NCAA Title in 1978 or 79.
I can definitely see the value of quality film study for HoF cases. Devotees of this approach often consider it the pre-eminent approach to determining fitness. Given that good honors profiles and looking good in film study often go hand in hand, I’m a proponent of honors profiles as meaningful (in addition, they tell us what contemporary observers thought, which is valuable) — plus it’s something quantifiable you can count and compare (0/2/none vs. 4/5/50s? Easy peasey, in theory). But as mentioned before, there’s sometimes a disconnect between the two, and it’s helpful to know when it happens.
As for good film study result sites, that’s a tough one. Ken Crippen has arguably the best one readily available:
http://www.kencrippen.com/historical-scouting-reports.htm
but it’s limited in scope. Though given the amount of work and depth of knowledge it takes to do this, I think it’s understandable.
Doing one’s own film study is great in theory, but in practice it requires a certain knowledge basis that’s fairly specialized, plus it requires sufficient time to perform and necessitates obtaining game footage to study (which I’m sure costs money to get hold of, if you can even get hold of it). The further back one goes, the harder it can be to get film footage.
As far as who to trust on this skill, that’s another good question. Some of the folks over at the Pro Football Researchers website seem to be proficient devotees of this, including Crippen, John Turney, Matt Reaser, and poster “Bryan.” And former posters over there, notably T.J. Troupe, seem to know what they’re talking about. One thing I like about Crippen’s site is that it’s heavy on detail and specifics, tied to specific games.
But people can disagree when it comes to film study, too. Just read an old SI article by Dr. Z, in which he discusses HoF candidates with Ron Wolf, and interestingly they disagree on various players, including Bob Kuechenberg (Dr. Z is a yes, Wolf is a no). Both are experts on the subject, but even experts here disagree sometimes.
And I’m very reluctant to trust most folks who post on the Internet claiming that they’re knowledgeable on the subject — after all, you never know who you’re dealing with. Often, it’s someone who yowls that they saw every game their favorite snub played (yeah, sure) and can vouch for them via observation from the stands (yeah, sure — when you could tear your gaze from the cheerleaders and the strolling beer vendors in the stands, that is). If it’s not some outright liar, that is.
I also think film study is a great added evaluation tool, but alas I lack the time, energy, resources and expertise to make it a part of my tool set-likely could be said for 99% of people who follow the PFHOF elections-including voters! Also there is an issue with selection bias as how many games are representative and have value for such an evaluation-what if you happen to get game film that was a rare bad performance or rare outstanding performance. In my view it would take more than a handful of selective games to make it really of value and no one has time, energy or resources to look at a large number of candidates via numerous game films each.
Thanks for sharing your intellect Bachs.
Hahaha!! I’ll admit to going too much by the sense of what I think I saw from my memory of years ago. By no means do I have an expert opinion on many these players. But I’m going to try to work harder on putting forth a more informed analysis in the future. I wish you guys would tell me when you don’t agree (outside of the Cowboys lol) with something I say and I’ll either debate the player’s case, give further study and pick a side or just admit I could be wrong. :)
Great points Paul!!
I’m thinking Le’Veon Bell who’s tracking to the HOF should of taken the Steeler’s 5 year 70 million dollar offer. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side just as Demarco Murray. Not exactly the same players but could happen. I’m trying to think of a stud RB who switched Teams in his prime where it worked well. Not too many. “Beast mode” and Riggins come to mind. Buffalo really messed up giving up on Lynch for a very good but aging Fred Jackson and newcomer CJ Spiller. Lynch is one peculiar cat who I could see doing something different at his HOF induction. lol Greener pastures didn’t work out too well for Duane Thomas. lol
Off script could Kwai Leonard be further from L.A. going to Toronto? If he plays. lol So often now in the NBA star player thinks they should be able to call the shots on where they go . Kind of don’t mind seeing this one fail.
IMO, the NBA player’s perceived freedoms are influencing the NFL players in a negative way. One example, I think the NFL player’s thinking that they can demand guaranteed contracts is really misguided.
Must add, the Kwai Leonard and Demar DeRozen trade is a debacle for Toronto and sad for DeRozen. Not sure why they even made the trade because Leonard will bolt to LA after this year. Such a dumb move by Toronto unless they win the Title.
bachslunch, Crippen’s site looks interesting for analysis but at quick glance it doesn’t appear to show footage. Do you know where people like him or Turney get their footage? Is it stuff they get from random collectors or maybe in some cases museums? I just tend to watch whatever I can find that someone’s uploaded onto youtube or the DVDs of historical games the NFL deigns to put out to let the peasants buy on rare occasions.
Rasputin — no idea where they get their footage. Might want to contact someone like Crippen or Turney. Good luck with it.
As far as learning how to really read game film — not sure. If T.J. Troupe offers to school you, accept — he’s apparently great at it and might be willing to show the ropes.
Apparently Darrelle Revis announced his retirement. Seems to be a surefire Hall of Famer, but is he first ballot?
I asked Turney in the comments section on his site a while back specifically about where he got the footage for his sack count studies, which had to have featured every game of the season for the players in question, but I haven’t heard back. He has responded to me on other topics though.
Let me get back to you on revis morgan
How bad is backlog for worthy Hall of Famers? One of AFL’s greatest players is still waiting
https://www.yahoo.com/news/bad-backlog-worthy-hall-famers-one-afls-greatest-players-still-waiting-213349710.html
Interview with Rick Gosselin who lists these 7 seniors as most deserving:Anderson, Covert?, Harris, Pearson, Riley?, Robinson (makes a hard Impassionate plea), Slater?
If we assume Revis makes the 2010 all decade team (I think that is a pretty safe assumption) than his 4/7/SB/2010s profile is pretty strong and would seem to hit what the current voters really like in 1st ballot selections. He appeared to really tail off during last 3 seasons (out of a 11 seasons), but in his prime Revis was best CB in league for 4 or 5 years which is pretty impressive-some are placing him in the top 10 or 5 CB of all time-not sure I would go that high, but merits the discussion. His biggest challenge may be the depth of deserving 1st ballot candidates for the class of 2023 with Joe Thomas, Dwight Freeney, Jason Witten, and perhaps Gates and Peterson-WOW! That could be one of the most interesting election debates EVER with FIVE all decade team members on ballot as 1st time candidates at the same time!
Great article. I would have to give this year’s Senior Candidate to the obvious.“elephant in the room”, Johnny Robinson. Glaring oversight for years. Agree with most in the fact that now Jerry Kramer is in Canton that leaves only Robinson from the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Combined Team of the Decade 1960s left not enshrined. Too great a player to be left in that position. 7 Pro Bowls and 7 All Pros First Teams , 2x Second Team All Pros with two Super Bowl appearances and a Super Bowl IV Championship plus 3x AFL Championship s in only ten years of playing at defense. Led AFL and NFL twice in interceptions while leading a great defensive unit. Tip of the hat to Johnny Robinson for 2019 Senior Candidate.
I wouldn’t be shocked if Revis wasn’t first ballot but I’ll leave the prediction to the number crunchers.
Paul knows what I’ll say. LOLl Revis can take Freeney’s 1st Ballot spot. :) Freeney was too one dimensional!! His first 11 years with the Colts he average 21 tackles a year. That’s bad even for a DE. He had one move that got him a decent amount of sacks, nothing overly impressive plus many of his sacks were against my sorry Texans. IMO he should get in but after a wait of at least 5 years. I guess I say him play too much. lol
i can see tony p’s logic on freeney
Agreed, Robert. I can see the thinking on Freeney, too. He’s one of those guys who probably isn’t as accomplished as his 3/7/00s honors might suggest. I’m not against inducting him because (as we see from John Randle, Chris Doleman, Fred Dean, Richard Dent, and Derrick Thomas, among others) being one dimensional and lacking ability to play the run well has consistently not been an impediment to HoF election for d-linemen and linebackers. Freeney fits right in with these guys, am thinking. He’s no first-ballot guy, though — getting elected well into his candidacy makes sense to me.
I definitely think Darrelle Revis (5/7/10s?) is a HoF lock, as well as a lock to make the 10s all decade team. Being the best cover corner of your time, and probably among the best ever should assure this. He may be first ballot, too, though agreed that coming up the same year alongside Thomas, Witten, et al. will make it more of a challenge.
I believe Revis is one of the best 7 or 8 CB’s ever, but it will be tough to tell if he will get in on the first ballot. There should still be a backlog for many deserving players as there are some fairly stacked ballots as of late. Kevin Mawae, Ty Law and Alan Faneca were all surefire hall of famers and they are still waiting. Yet I thought a player like Jason Taylor could have waited a couple of years.-Bill
Rick Caseras will not be considered this year with all of the other remarkable senior candidates. But he should be a Hall of famer.
Paul mentioned “Interview with Rick Gosselin who lists these 7 seniors as most deserving:”
Ken Anderson
Jimbo Covert
Cliff Harris
Drew Pearson
Ken Riley
Johnny Robinson
Duke Slater
Agree fully with Anderson, Harris, Pearson, Robinson, and Slater.
But ugh — no on Covert (2/2/80s) and Riley (1/0/none).
Covert’s career is short, and have seen film study opinion on him that he was good but not outstanding, essentially that today he’d be a solid right tackle at best. How he made the 80s all decade team instead of Mike Kenn, Jackie Slater. or Marvin Powell is beyond me.
Riley of course has always been a thorough puzzle for me. Nonexistent honors, and has a boatload of INTs because he played forever. Honors pale in comparison to teammate Lemar Parrish (3/8/none), who was also a world class kick returner. Have seen some film study scuttlebutt that he supposedly played better then his honors would indicate — but still… seriously?
And as I’ll point out before Rasputin does — Chuck Howley’s name is conspicuous by its absence. Argh…
After three 1st time ballot contenders in 2019, 1st ballot PFHOFers thin out in number from 2020-2022, plenty of room to fit leftover 2018 finalists and others moving up from 25 semifinal list to final 15. Which should clear the deck for 2023 with the possibility of the aforementioned five all decade players (plus Witten) on ballot as 1st time candidates.
2020 Troy P, 2021 Manning and Woodson, 2022 Ware
In fairness, Bachslunch, it’s not clear from the article if Gosselin’s necessarily saying those are the top 7 candidates or just 7 candidates to watch, but I shared your “argh” over Howley being omitted again. For a while I wondered if he was down on Howley because he was purely focusing on All Decade status, but Ken Anderson wasn’t All Decade so that torpedoes that notion. In fact last year Gosselin told a Cincinatti paper that Anderson is, “probably one of the top five guys that needs to be discussed,…He probably already should be in the Hall of Fame.”
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/08/06/bx-could-year-kenny-anderson-and-hof/542915001/
If anyone’s interested I recently had a lengthy conversation with Gosselin in the Talk of Fame comments section. He didn’t reveal a whole lot but it’s by far the most I’ve seen him say there and I did elicit some new info. Scroll down about 10 posts for the beginning of the exchange.
http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/28777-2/
Some quick takeaways: At least he did explicitly state that Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson all belong in the HoF (he even later added Everson Walls and Harvey Martin), which is the first time I had seen him do that. Unfortunately each time he said that he immediately diminished it by adding that dozens and dozens of others also belong in Canton.
He indicated his initial screening process included All Decade status and Pro Bowls but didn’t mention All Pro selections until I raised it and afterward he said he values those too but I’m not sure how much.
He says he doesn’t take age/living status into account at all when prioritizing nominees.
He says he doesn’t have a fixed objective system for ranking players. He was also reluctant to say anything about his personal ranking within his top 100 or so list. When I pushed him on that he said that he “only has 1 ranking”, which is the most deserving overall player. He was already on record saying he had Kramer there for years and now has Johnny Robinson there. Presumably that meant public ranking since he obviously has to help vote the list of 100 down to 15 finalists. He remained evasive throughout about how he does that. I pointed out that his own radio show had just done a long series where they went around the country asking each city’s HoF rep which local players are most deserving, implying his current caginess was hypocritical. He tried to claim that he’s the Dallas rep in the broad group of 48 but in senior discussions he’s instead representing the entire field (that committee being smaller). I pointed out that he interviewed senior committee members in this series. I specifically cited Chicago’s Dan Pompeii, who enthusiastically stumped for Bear senior candidates there and elsewhere.
But I really busted him when I quoted his above comment to that Cincinnati paper last year saying Ken Anderson is in the top 5.
I asked if he could say that about Anderson then why couldn’t he answer if he’s got Chuck Howley in his top 5 or not (or even top 15)? He never really answered and stopped posting after his next reply, but I found the exchange interesting nonetheless.
rasputin you and i disagree on ken anderson and id rather leave it at that
I wonder when Zach Thomas 5/7 starts to gain HOF momentum? He wasn’t quite as one dimensional as Freeney but wasn’t much above average on pass coverage. I hope he’s not the next Chuck Howley but could be.
Revis must be high on the list of the all-time talented CB’s but not for total career.
That’s a strange place to leave it, qmart198@yahoo.com. I’m not even sure what you’re disagreeing with.
ill explain correct me if im wrong but didnt anderson have a fall off between either 76-80 or was it 77-80 and also i do think howley should go in before anderson is that good enought i could go further
OK let me clarify didn’t Anderson have a dropout in production between 76-80 if you want me to get discuss it further I’d be happy to
I’m sorry but Ken Anderson’s profile doesn’t scream HOF for me. He gets mild support from me based on his 1981 season. He showed he was a gutty QB after being beaten down for years. That was impressive. I like him and he had good arm talent. But his career but for a 2-3 standout seasons was ho hum. A HOF QB needs to win consistently or win SB’s or have great talent that’s undeniable. Anderson played in Houston’s division so I saw him guy play fairly often . Anderson’s been waiting for the HOF for a reason.
Agreed Tony I use to be an Anderson supporter but after research I am no longer one for the reasons you listed
To be clear, while I do favor Anderson for the HoF I was quoting Rick Gosselin in those posts. I wasn’t arguing for or against Anderson.
gotcha
Guess it’s time to get on my soapbox in favor of Kenny Anderson for the HoF again.
The short version is this. Every ranking of top QBs adjusted for era, I’ve ever seen, whether it’s done by Kiran Rasaretnam or Chase Stuart or Brad Oremland,or someone else has as its top 25 or so players a clutch of no-brainer HoFers, HoF locks not eligible to induct yet, and Kenny Anderson.
And the HoF is full of QBs who have great stats but no title: Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, Sonny Jurgensen, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton, and Jim Kelly.among them. I just don’t see why these folks are Canton worthy and Anderson isn’t.
Good logic on anderson bachs
I’ve viewed Ken Anderson as the best senior era QB not in the HoF for a long time. I’m not sure there’s even a close rival to that spot.
Although I don’t have a problem with Anderson as a senior candidate, there is no way he is top 5….not even top 10. He benefits from being perhaps the best QB in the seniors pool which given the high profile of the position is also giving him more consideration than is probably warranted
I think anyone who leads the NFL in passer rating 4 years deserves serious consideration. Everyone else who only led it 3 times, let alone more, is in the HoF. But he’s not in my top 5 either. QB isn’t a priority position for me in the senior pool as things currently stand. His lack of a serious rival owes less to him having an overwhelming case than it does to the position already having most of its deserving candidates inducted, unlike others that have been shortchanged.
Still it might be interesting to go through listing the most deserving senior candidate at each position. I’ll start with these two and post the rest of my list later:
LB – Chuck Howley (I know you’re shocked, lol)
QB – Ken Anderson
Alright here’s my full list.
LB – Chuck Howley
QB – Ken Anderson
WR – Billy Howton
OL – Jim Tyrer
RB – Don Perkins
DB – Johnny Robinson
DL – Alex Karras
Close between Howton and Drew Pearson. Howton has 3 first team All Pro selections but one of those years it was just one outfit that named him (NY Daily News) while Pearson’s 3 are all solid with multiple outfits naming him each season, and Pearson was first team All Decade while Howton wasn’t All Decade. Pearson also won a SB while Howton never won a title. But Howton is older and still alive at 88 (Pearson is 67) and Howton retired ranked #1 in career receiving yards (he was the first guy to pass Don Hutson), so those bonus points tip things slightly his way.
DL is more of a tossup. I’ve got Karras there despite him passing away but it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world if another deserving D-lineman or two were inducted before him.
Rasputin, agreed that Kenny Anderson is by far the best QB not in the HoF. For me, there’s a sizable gulf below him, with Roman Gabriel and John Brodie occupying those spots. But I’m essentially on the fence regarding them.
As to where I rank him among all Seniors, I think he’s about #10 or so. I’ve got a top 70 or so ranking floating around here in one of my posts, and that’s what I remember. If memory serves, that top 10 now includes (in no specific order) Lavvie Dilwig, Al Wistert, Duke Slater, Chuck Howley, Johnny Robinson, Billy Howton, Maxie Baughan, Harold Jackson, Randy Gradishar, and Kenny Anderson.
I’ll see your list Rasputin and raise you a couple spots. lol
QB Phil Simms than Ken Anderson
RB Lots of equally worthy at first glance IMO If I’m forced to go to one I’m going with OJ Anderson who had the misfortune of having his playing prime from 1979 through the mid 80’s when there was unbelievable RB talent. Walter Payton, Earl Campbell, Tony Dorsett, Billy Sims, Wlibert Montgomery, Chuck Muncie, Mike Pruitt, William Andrews, Eric Dickerson, Marcus Allen, etc.. Was there ever a time with a better collection of runners? Man, the entire 80’s had so many great rushing performances. Add John Riggins, Roger Craig, Gerald Riggs, George Rogers, Joe Morris, Neal Anderson to the list,
WR- Harold Jackson than tie Drew Pearson and Cliff Branch, Billy Howton, Otis Taylor
TE Todd Christenson
T Jim Tyrer
G Bob Kuechenberg
DT Alex Karras
DE Harvey Martin
LB Chuck Howley
S Johnny Robinson
CB Lemar Parrish
Phil Simms? He went to two pro bowls. Played 16 games only 4 times in 14 seasons. Was repeatedly benched in his career. Yes, he was amazing in super bowl xxi but that was unquestionably a defensive team. In fact, the team did not miss a beat without him on the way to super bowl xxv title. If he played in St. Louis or Atlanta at the time, no one would have ever heard of him. Absolutely rock solid “no” for me. And if anything his post playing career should held against him, too. Worst national announcer for the vast majority of his career. Near the end, he was unlistenable, I watched the games on mute.
As I think others have alluded to, there is no reason for the senior committee to even examine QBs and RBs. Those positions are already vastly over represented in the HOF. In fact, the committee could only nominate defensive players for the next 10 years, and there would still be a shortage of defensive players in the HOF. The only offensive position that merits serious evaluation by the senior committee is WR where the backlog is stricking and getting worse (Ellard, Clark, other 80s receivers will be there soon).
Agreed that there are no pressing needs to nominate a Senior RB. The best candidates at present would include Don Perkins, Ken Willard, Larry Brown, Chuck Foreman, Rick Casares, maybe one or two other names. But I don’t think any of them have the best of cases. That’s definitely true at center as well, with the best name out there arguably being Jay Hilgenberg. Again, not heavily sold here, either.
As I said, beyond Kenny Anderson, I don’t see any need to induct any QBs, either. Though I do think Anderson is a bad snub.
TE has some halfway reasonable options such as Jerry Smith, Pete Retzlaff, and maybe Todd Christensen or Ron Kramer. They’re big-Hall guys, though.
OT has a couple noteworthy omissions in Jim Tyrer, George Kunz, and Winston Hill, with the first of these the most pressing. Guys like Joe Jacoby, Marvin Powell, and Mike Kenn as of next year are more borderline but plausible.
The biggest Senior offense problem areas are at guard (Dick Barwegen, Jim Ray Smith, Duane Putnam, Walt Sweeney, Ed Budde, Ken Gray, Gale Gillingham) and WR (Mac Speedie, Billy Howton, Billy Wilson, Del Shofner, Harold Jackson, Harold Carmichael, Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch).
Defense of course is loaded with horrible snubs, and there are a few 20s-40s two way snubs also (Al Wistert, Lavvie Dilweg, Duke Slater, Verne Lewellen, Riley Matheson, Ox Emerson).
Here are my top 25 seniors in no part order 1. Howley
2. Robinson
3. Wistert
4. Slater
5. Lewellen
6. Dilweg
7. Matheison
8. Emerson
9. Howton
10.Sweeney
11.Speedie
12.Anderson
13.Budde
14.Carmichael
15. Pearson
16.Shofner
17.Wilson
18. Cliff Harris
19. Cliff Branch
20. Winston Hill
21. Jim Tyrer
22. George Kunz
23. Otis Taylor
24.Gale Gillingham
25.Joe Jacoby
Thoughts who should i add or subtract
I can respect that argument Justin. I think you could be right on the QB-RB being tapped out I agree about WR’s needing HOF recognition.
And I’ll back off Simms being a “must” in the HOF But I still value Phil’s career slightly over Ken Anderson’s. Both showed great resilience especially Phil coming out of the gate as a young QB getting killed on most Sunday’s. It gave him the reputation as one tough hombre. He played his best when it counted the most. I don’t know if he’ll ever be in the HOF but I’m not opposed.
You lost me a little though bringing Phil’s announcing into it. While he wasn’t my favorite I didn’t view him like that, and I know his analysis of the game was highly regarded when compared to all of the other color commentary guys. I do think his prickly on air comments with his partners wore on the audience as time went by but I wouldn’t say he did a bad job. Announcers are like flavors of ice cream some you like some you don’t. For example I never liked Vin Scully doing football but he’s a national treasure to many now. LOL One thing I agree with him on is,
“Scully was asked about the NFL’s national anthem protests, in which players have taken a knee during the anthem to protest police brutality and racism. Scully said he “will never watch another NFL game” because of the protests. ” from CBS Sports While I’ll probably still watch occasionally, this sorry ongoing protest saga/player’s attitudes along with efforts to change the game too much has likely soured me on today’s NFL for good. I didn’t watch one games worth last year. I can still watch College Football :) So far. lol It isn’t always easy watching a 66-63 Big 12 game. lol
Hook’em Horns!
Bach’s, I’ll take the real “ground chuck” runner Lawrence McCutcheon slightly over Foreman. He wasn’t quite as flashy as Foreman but IMO he played with much more determination. I believe McCutcheon would of been even better if the Rams Offense wasn’t so vanilla. He caught the ball well when given the opportunity. He was still damn good! Unfortunately I agree neither one has a very strong case.
Isn’t Jerry Smith a less accomplished version of Todd Christenson? I saw his career story. Very athletic player but not a HOFer IMO.
I’ve been a no on Winston Hill but will go back and review. Cool name! lol
What do you think about a new term , Hall of Great but No Cigar? lol
id agree with you on christensen tony christensen has a better profile 5/4 compared to 2/2 smith
Tony, the PFRA website has a “Hall of The Very Good.” Many of the players we’ve been discussing over the years are enshrined there.
Winston Hill has a decent profile of 1/8/allAFL. But he’s one of the players who has a scouting report at Crippen’s site, and he scores really well there. And this jives with what I’ve generally heard about him in film study. I’m fine with him getting in someday.
It’s a little tough to compare Smith and Christensen as they were not contemporaries. But I think TEs got targeted more in Christensen’s day, which probably explains his higher raw numbers. For his time, Smith’s numbers strike me as unusually strong for a TE. I’d welcome a more rigorous look at this, though.
I prefer “Hall of Great but No Cigar” to “Hall of Very Good”, Tony. The latter has long been a pet peeve of mine because it conflates great players with HoFers. It’s not called the “Hall of Great”. There are truly great players who were better than merely “good” but aren’t in the HoF and may never be. HoFer is a subset of “great”. The “Hall of Very Good” obscures all that in my opinion and sounds stupid and insulting.
And yeah, Tony, there are a lot of people like Scully out there. These union idiots don’t seem to realize that they’re killing the league. I would have walked completely away from the current NFL if it wasn’t for me being a Cowboys fan and for that organization having taken the stand it has. If they’re even driving people like me or Vin Scully away it’s little wonder that they’ve lost 20% of their audience in just two years. That’s a death spiral and they’re acting oblivious to it. Maybe it would help if someone was in that room where the owners and union are negotiating who represented the fans and kept them in touch with their own customers and reality.
Totally agree Rasputin. It doesn’t do some of the players not in the Hall of Fame justice.
Ya and now it looks like the misguided players/PA are going to double down on stupid. I’m like, you made your point in a dumb way now get back to football. Nothing worse than rich people protesting this Country.
Bachs what do you think of my 25 semifinalists
I see one of my “must” HOF players Gene Hickerson is already in there. LOL What about his Brown’s teammate LT Dick Schafrath 4/6? How good was he Bachs? Don’t think I’ve seen support for him.
I could of swore there was a Gary Collins that played for San Diego in the 60’s and 70’s? Can’t find him.
gary garrison played for the chargers and yes i agree on schafrath for the hall of fame
Wrong Gary, it was Gary Harrison 0/4. Really nice player with a pretty good stat line for the time.
Robert, your top 25 is a reasonable group. I’d probably find room for Maxie Baughan, Randy Gradishar, Harold Jackson, Lemar Parrish, Jimmy Patton, and Alex Karras. For me, while I think folks like Budde, Gillingham, Jacoby, Taylor, Kunz, and Wilson have varying degrees of decent cases, I’m not sure they’d necessarily be top-25 guys, either. Hard to say on exact ordering, too.
But that’s what makes things interesting, of course. Your top 25 and its ordering aren’t necessarily going to be the same as mine. Nor do they have to be.
Re Dick Schafrath: I have him with a 5/6/none profile, which is pretty good when it comes to OT Senior snubs. He used to be someone I routinely listed, and he’s plausible enough, for sure. What swayed me more to on the fence with him is that he doesn’t score that well over at Crippen’s film study site. Like Dick Stanfel, there’s likely a disconnect between honors and film study with him. I wouldn’t complain too awfully much if he got in someday, but not ahead of folks like Tyrer and Hill, for starters. Guys like Pat Fischer, Mike Curtis, and Bruno Banducci don’t score especially over there, either, and coupled with their lower honors profiles, I’m not taken with any of them.
I thought I remembered you mentioning Schafrath but wasn’t sure. Thanks for putting him into context for me.
Mike Curtis does score well on the nasty meter. lol We don’t talk much about a player’s effect on his teammates. I wonder if that could push a guy over the top if he’s close? We know with Owens it can hold them back. I’m thinking Ricky Watters might be in his category to a lesser degree. If Watters had Terrell Davis’s personality might he not be in the HOF already?
Bach that was the first draft i plan on making additions as well as subtractions
Bachslunch, I enjoy reading the comments that you post here and elsewhere, and I respect your opinions to the point that I wish the actual HOF voters had your knowledge and thoughtfulness. That being said, I would like to encourage you to reconsider your above opinion on Dick Schafrath. Schafrath’s grade at Ken Crippen’s site appears to be based on Crippen’s examination of just four games (one from 1964, two from 1966, and one from 1970). The game from 1964 is the only one from a season in which Schafrath was named All-Pro, and Crippen grades Schafrath 7.8 for that game (the same overall grade he gives Jerry Kramer and Mick Tinglehoff, for example). Schafrath’s overall grade seems to be hampered by a terrible performance in the 1970 game, but he probably should have been retired by that point and received neither Pro Bowl or All-Pro honors that season. I am not discounting the value of film study in general, but in Schafrath’s case those four games are a small and inadequate sample. I would think for most All-Pro level players one would see a disconnect between honors and film study when the games studied were from seasons in which the player was not an All-Pro.
I would not rate Schafrath above Jim Tyrer, who is overqualified for the HOF but has not been elected for the obvious reason. However, I think he compares very favorably with any other senior-eligible Tackles, including Winston Hill, Ralph Neely, and Joe Jacoby. FWIW, Jim Brown wrote the forward to Schafrath’s autobiography “Heart of a Mule”, and in addition to offering effusive praise for Schafrath as a player and person, he states that Schafrath and Gene Hickerson should both be in the Hall. Anyway, thanks for your consideration.
Yes Kyle, ZoneBlitz has a few really knowledgeable people of which Bachs is at the top.
This post is getting toooooo long. lol I want to know what happened to Tony and Andy ? Can’t get in touch by email. Is this normal for the off season? Do you think they read our comments? They used to get in on the conversations a little. We’re getting real close to football action. Suppose they are gearing up for Canton at the moment. Hello?????? LOL
You no for being such a dangerous sport with CTE and all these old players who played with really little head protection sure live a long time. I’m amazed at how many are still alive. I have a really cool example of this that Johnny Robinson’s nephew Troy shared with me. If you want to see a couple cool pics of Johnny shoot an email to me at tony.parslow@yahoo.com
Ok I have a theory on Dick Schafrath not being in the HOF. lol First it’s hard to get 3 Lineman off one team into the HOF. The only one I can recall are the Raiders with Shell, Upshaw and Otto. Maybe the Packers now with Kramer? The Browns already have Gene Hickerson and Mick McCormack although not overlapping much. The second more plausible reason is I went back and looked at all of the modern day Tackles in the HOF and (if it’s the case LT was the weaker side until about 1980) only three players (Rosey Brown, Lou Groza and Mike McCormack) are in the HOF and all didn’t play the position after 1965. In fact there have been no weak side Tackles put into the HOF since McCormack in 1984. I’d be interested if any had the accolades to get consideration?
Updated Seniors List
1.Howley
2. Robinson
3. Wistert
4. Slater
5. Baughan
6. Gradishar
7. Lewellen
8. Dilweg
9. Matheison
10.Emerson
11.Sweeney
12.Speedie
13.Anderson
14.Budde
15.Carmichael
16.Pearson
17.Shofner
18. Harold Jackson
19. Cliff Harris
20. Cliff Branch
21. Winston Hill
22. Jim Tyrer
23. Otis Taylor
24.Alex Karras
25.Dick Schafrath
Harold Carmichael was the biggest WR ever wasn’t he? lol Great athlete and certainly a consistent pass catcher with so many games in a row and end zone threat. Not sure if he makes my top 25. I want to say he didn’t have great hands (not saying bad) but will defer to you guys.
Here’s my shot in the dark scenario list. lol I don’t think all of these WR’s are getting in. lol
1. Johnny Robinson
2, Chuck Howley
3. Walt Sweeney
4. Maxie Baughan
5, Harold Jackson
6, Cliff Harris
7. Randy Gradishar
8. Lemar Parrish
9. L.C. Greenwood
10. Bob Kuechenberg
11. Ken Anderson
12. Drew Pearson
13. Larry Grantham
14. Duke Slater
15. Cliff Branch
16. Donnie Shell
17. Eddie Meador
18. Dick Barwegen
19. Al Wistert
20. Otis Taylor
21. Jimmy Patton
22 . Harold Carmichael
23. Jake Scott
24. Alex Karras
25. Jim Tyrer
Mike Curtis
Dick Schafrath goes at 22 in place of Carmichael. Carmichael may very well go in the top 15 if politics plays into it but there are quite a few deserving WR’s who should go before him IMO I left Shofner and Speedie off the list but I’d put them before him. I’m not a big supporter of Greenwood but I think he’ll get in sooner than later. Can’t imagine the vaunted Steel Curtain will only have one rep. Most of the great DL’s I can think of have two, Packers, Rams, Vikings etc.. . I hope Harvey Martin makes the HOF for the Cowboys some day. I think he was underrated. Speaking of Defenses it sure is surprising to me that Jack Youngblood is the only HOFer off those great 70’s Rams Defenses. I guess two if you count an aging Merlin Olsen. Fred Dryer only 1 PB hmm. Larry Brooks 1/5 was a really good DT. Isiah Robertson 2/6. MLB Jack Hacksaw was key for Rams and two 49ers SB teams. Could a 0/2 make the HOF? Two 5’9″ CB PB’s in Rod Perry and Pat Thomas. Will never see again. lol
I removed carmichael from my list tony
Probably be this year’s pick now. lol
Here is my seniors list in order of who “i” think should go in
1. Johnny Robinson
2. Chuck Howley
3. Randy Gradishar
4. Jim Tyrer
5. Maxie Baughan
6. Cliff Harris
7. Eddie Meador
8. Lester Hayes
9. Pete Retzlaff
10. Roger Craig
11. Cliff Branch
12. Alex Karras
13. Houston Antwine
14. Bob Kuechenberg
15. Walt Sweeney
16 Rick Caseras
17. Drew Pearson
18. Deron Cherry
19. Mike Curtis
20. Joe Klecko
Bill, I like your top 6. Interesting that you have Cliff Branch as the most deserving WR. I struggled who to put first between Branch and Pearson because I view them so equally.. Ultimately I gave Pearson the nod only because of his 1st Team HOF All 70’s status.
i had the same prob too tony with branch and pearson
I find it difficult to seriously go more than 10-15 deep on any list.
So I was looking around for a site like Zoneblitz for MLB HOF discussion and couldn’t find anything with a decent level of activity. That really surprised me. Any of you guys feel strongly about the baseball HOF? Know of a site ? It really seems like you guys are unique to have your level of commitment to HOF discussion.
Being lazy I’ll ask you guys if you know, who are some of the top Senior candidates coming into eligibility over the next 5 years? Sorry if this has been addressed and I missed it. They would of retired from 1994-1998.
I would list the top Senior candidates coming into eligibility over the next 5 years as follows:
QB: Boomer Esiason
RB: Herschel Walker
WR: Sterling Sharpe, Gary Clark. Henry Ellard
TE: Keith Jackson, Steve Jordan, Brent Jones, Jay Novacek
OL: Mike Kenn, Chris Hinton, Kent Hull, Jim Lachey
DL: Michael Dean Perry, Ray Childress, Steve McMichael
LB: Karl Mecklenburg, Sam Mills, Pat Swilling, Clay Matthews
DB: Dennis Smith
K: Nick Lowery
P: Rohn Stark
Out of those players, I would probably name Mecklenburg, Sharpe, Perry, Jackson and Kenn as the top 5 overall.
Thanks BSLO!! Those are some really good players and gives us something to chew on. lol I agree on those 5 and would add I thought Steve McMichael was pretty great although lacking the number of accolades. His 95 sacks and 838 tackles at DT/NT are nothing to sneeze at. I bet he looks good in film study too. He was one tough dude.
Also, while I have seen mentions of most of the best first-time eligible senior candidates (Jacoby, Craig, Clayton, Simms), I haven’t seen anyone mention Jay Hilgenburg.
He’s flown under the radar a bit since he didn’t make an all-decade team and never made the semi-finalist list as a modern era candidate, but with a 7/2 (AP) profile and a Super Bowl ring, he’s arguably the best center in the senior pool. There are certainly tackles and guards with better profiles in the senior pool, but I think he’s someone to keep an eye on. Personally, I wouldn’t put Ken Anderson near the top of my senior candidates list, but he’s a prime example of how being the best option at your position will keep you in the conversation. I’m hoping Hilgenburg can benefit from a similar advantage,
Wow I had no idea Hilgenburg’s profile was that good. He deserves more attention for sure. I totally agree on Anderson. And he might stay as the best option for a while longer because I don’t see much love for Phil Simms although I slightly favor him over Anderson.
Clayton? Must of been me doing most of talking. lol Wish we could put players in the HOF as combo deal. :) Clayton/Duper , Dixon/Minnifield, Scott/Anderson , Pearson/Hill, Jones/Martin etc..
Hello Tony P- I would like to answer a few of the questions you posed
1) Branch vs, Pearson- Although I would put both in the HOF, I put Branch in over Pearson due to his overall numbers be slightly better. Both were equal in there competitive greatness, both made big impacts to their respective teams in big moments, both had similar accolades. Branch just had slightly better numbers.
2) Mike Kenn and Karl Mecklinburg should both look forward to being senior candidates because I believe they will be treated more fairly in that room than they currently receive in the “modern” room.
3) I am actually way more into the baseball HOF than I am the football. I have done thousands of hours researching the baseball hall of fame (I live really close to it) The reason you don’t see as may quality debate sites like this one, is because you can see who is going to make it (generally0 long before it happens. Most people who are really into baseball can correctly predict who the writers will put in and who they don’t, once they reach the ballot for the first time. For instance I have correctly predicted every baseball HOF and every player who didn’t make it since 1993. And believe me I’m not unique. Having said that, 10 years ago I predicted Edgar Martinez would get in, if he does not get elected this year that would be the first time I’ve been wrong since I started my predictions with my father 25 years ago. By contrast in football I’ve been correct a little less than 65%
The way the baseball senior committee works, they don’t hardly elect anyone because they allow current HOFames on the committee, and they notoriously keep it a small Hall. Since 2000, the only elected Bill Mazeroski, Deacon White, Joe Gordon, Ron Santo and then Jack Morris and Alan Trammell this year. Their process is flawed in my opinion, there are numerous others who should have been elected through the baseballs senior process.
But hey! If you start a baseabll site as organized as this one is, I will be the first one on it!
One other thing. My personal feeling is that many people on this site put way too much stock into “ALL- DECADE,” teams. There are some really questionable choices on those.
I’m only going to make one case point but I could make many: John Anderson LB Packers.
Many of us put stock into All Decade teams as they are one important factor-and more importantly one that current voters place plenty of weight on. They may not be perfect-and we all can certainly point to bad selections – but then again same can be said for all pro and pro bowl selections.
Thanks Bill. I wasn’t thinking, you’re right a baseball HOF discussion would be less interesting due to the system they use. Only interest would be controversial players (already discussed to death) and current players. Do you think Joey Votto gets in one day? He seems to be tailing off. I’m surprised he’s never had 200 hits in a season. Looks like no chance at 3,000 hits or 400 homers and is a 1st baseman. I guess I answered myself. lol
What’s your view on Harold Jackson (did he deserve his 1st Team All-70’s spot IYO?) and 5/7 Zach Thomas? Do you think they are holding Thomas’ average to slightly above pass coverage against him?
As a relative layperson on evaluating NFL talent I would put the most stock in the accolades of the OL for obvious reasons especially thinking about what I saw in my youth when I didn’t pay as close attention. It was all about where the ball was as a kid. :)
The Pearson/Branch stat thing isn’t clear cut. Branch played longer than Pearson so he has higher career volume totals but Pearson averaged more yards/game and receptions/game despite Branch playing more into the 1980s, which saw massive stat inflation. Pearson had some spectacular moments in the early 80s but the combination of mounting injuries and the emergence of Tony Hill led to a drop off in production. He was more of a 1970s WR. One might argue that Branch’s averages fell off because he played longer, but if you just compare their 1970s seasons, excluding Pearson’s rookie season and Branch’s first two years when each player was mostly a backup, so 1974-1979 for both players, Pearson has a slight edge in both yards and receptions though Branch has more TDs. If you count their early years too Pearson’s total volume lead increases despite Branch having an extra season. Pearson also had more playoff TDs than Branch overall in the 1970s and slightly more yards and receptions.
Then there’s the quality and importance of plays, not all receptions being equal, and Pearson being involved in some of the most historically important plays in NFL history. I think Branch belongs in the HoF too but Pearson’s selection as first team All Decade was very legitimate and I give him the edge in HoF priority.
Rasputin, One could argue Pearson had the better QB and that Branch was competing with two HOF receivers for catches. Seems like splitting hairs to say one was better than the other. They were different types of players. Branch was one of the better deep threats of his time and like Paul Warfield his speed opened up plays for others to excel and Pearson was one the best sideline receivers I’ve seen and very clutch. Oakland had Fred Biletnikoff for clutch sideline catches. Of course all three were great WR’s who could do it all. I agree with your conclusion that Pearson gets the priority nod for his 70’s All Team 1st Team spot to Branch’s 2nd Team but it’s pretty thin and I see no other advantage. What I see is Branch leads in every Playoff category except games started 21 to 18 and TD’s 8 to 5. Everything is in favor of Branch but surprisingly close IMO. I do think the notoriety of Pearson playing for a Team that went to 3 SB’s probably was a factor in being named to the 1st Team. Is what it is and I have no qualm with it because Pearson was just as deserving of the honor and he should be given HOF priority for it.
Well Pearson leads Branch in yards/game and receptions/game, Tony, so like I said it’s not clear cut. My post was specifically responding to the baseball fan Bill above who had flatly stated otherwise. Pearson did have a better QB but Stabler is in the HoF too and the Raiders had a more vertical offense than Dallas. I also think Pearson was a huge factor in getting his team to 3 SBs.
OK sorry I see what you did by only counting the 70’s playoff stats. Fair enough. :) Career wise so very close and I know about Pearson’s injuries but I doubt the evaluators care much about that. If so more players would be in the HOF. Just my opinion.
damn your fast Rasputin, I thought I could respond before you saw it. LOL
No doubt Pearson was huge in getting Dallas to each SB.
Yeah, but there, Tony, I was talking about their whole career regular season averages.
Just to respond to Rasputin, I believe I stated above that both receivers (Pearson and Branch) are very close, there is not much separating them and both deserve to be in the HOF. In my opinion Branch was slightly better. Much like I believe Moss was slightly betters than Owens but both belong in the hall of fame. There is no doubt Pearson had some great and memorable playoff moments (of course the Hail Mary play is an iconic NFL moment) but so did Branch. And like you even mentioned Branch’s career went just a tad longer.
Ya,, I’m always thinking in terms of career and didn’t comprehend correctly in my haste what you wrote. We agree related to HOF but I can’t say Pearson was the better player or had the better career.
I’ll concede the 70’s to Pearson and I think the HOF got it right unlike leaving Jake Scott off for Larry Wilson. I’d like to hear the argument for Wilson’s last 3 years of his career in the 70’s being more valued than Scott’s entire prime and starting in 3 SB’s. If there’s a bigger snub of being left off the HOF All Team I want to hear it. :)
I think Scott’s blowup with Don Shula must of greatly influenced the HOF when they named the All 70’s Team. Shula’s reputation as a genius especially for getting the most out of player’s and yours to beat you if he had the chance was beyond reproach by the end of the 1970’s. Funny how people rarely mention Shula now with the all-time coaching greats. Much in the way they didn’t Kareem Abdul Jabbar for many years. It’s only more recently I hear people giving the all-time points leader giving him his do. Maybe people don’t respect his prime because he played in the 1970’s?
I know, Bill. My point was just that it’s not clear cut which player had “better” stats. It depends on which stats one looks at. Branch had superior longevity and TD scoring while Pearson had superior per game production in yards and catches. In my opinion Branch was more of a speedy deep threat while Pearson was a more skilled all around wide receiver.
Yeah, Tony, picking Larry Wilson over Jake Scott was a lot like picking Ronnie Lott over Darren Woodson on the 90s team. A head scratcher. At least they did put Miami’s Dick Anderson on the All Decade team, so maybe they figured they didn’t want two Dolphins. I don’t know. Choosing Larry Morris over Chuck Howley on the 60s team still takes the cake though.
Larry who? LOL Wow, that is bad!! I agree Lott didn’t need to get that spot. I support Woodson for the HOF. He was one hell of a clean hard nose tackler for his entire career!!
Gil Brandt’s July 19, 2019 statement on former Kansas City Chiefs safety Johnny Robinson for 2019 Senior Candidate for Pro Football Hall of Fame
“Johnny Robinson was drafted number three overall in the 1960 NFL draft, and was the Dallas Texans first selection in the AFL draft. He began his career on offense and was a very productive back and receiver. He was then moved to defense, and I cannot think of anyone else who made that change and played so well so quickly. He was very athletic, and his range and recognition made him an outstanding safety. In fact, I believe him to be one of the 100 best football players ever, regardless of position.”
Gil Brandt, NFL.com Senior Analyst
Sure makes the HOF selection committee look bad. Time to get their heads out of the sand!! Jerry Kramer was a start.
Correction : July 19, 2018 statement
Does seem like solid momentum for Robinson as senior candidate this year (but by posting this I may have just destroyed his chances as I never get the senior candidate selections correct!). But as I have posted before with only 5 voters meeting to discuss 15 senior candidates and then select the one senior to be nominated, that low number of voters (who rotate annually) it only takes 1 or 2 voters (loudest or longest talkers??) to sway the decision-so it really can be a crap shoot. And because the 5 voters rotate in and out each year, momentum for a specific candidate from year to year is not necessarily sustained. I am sure all the 9 members of the seniors committee are very familiar with-and have discussed each year, pretty much the same list of 15 finalists, but figuring out who is rising to the top in a given year is hard to determine. I would guess that Robinson is most certainly among the top 5 seniors, and has been in recent years, but whether that is evidence towards his election this year is less certain. Also less certain is the role that any public or media pressure plays in getting one elected. Yes Kramer had wide spread support and family fans and media behind his selection, but that had been in place for years, only finally did it succeed-I doubt anything was really different in 2018 to push him to selection that had not been the case prior.
It is my hope that Johnny Robinson will be selected this year to finish out the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Combined Team of the Decade 1960s since Jerry Kramer is now in. That leaves Robinson as the last player from that team not enshrined. I would hate for him to remain the only one not inducted from that team. He was such a great player of any era. With Jerry Kramer now being enshrined, and if Robinson could be selected for 2019 induction, the selectors could get the elephants out of the room, finish the PFHOF Combined Team of the 1960s (arguably the greatest with names) and move on.
Maybe Paul but maybe these people don’t discuss these guys like Robinson and Kramer at all because they have a thick file of cons going back years on them. I mean they came up as Finalists every year.back in the day. And maybe it takes an awful lot of pressure or an act of God or who knows what for them to take a fresh look? lol
Just maybe God will act on this one! After reading Johnny Robinson’s life story in the papers around the country lately, it probably should be made into a movie. lol
Robert, you’re spot on. Stay tuned. :)
I’m dying to share my picture of Johhny. It’s so cool! Send me an email. tony.parslow@yahoo.com
Bob, I think they need to do Johnny, Chuck Howley and Maxie Baughan at a minimum before they can close the chapter on the 60’s.
Yes to Johnny Robinson, Chuck Howley and Maxie Baughan. No doubt! They all belong.
New 25 seniors updated
1.Howley
2. Robinson
3. Wistert
4. Slater
5. Baughan
6. Gradishar
7. Lewellen
8. Dilweg
9. Matheison
10.Emerson
11.Sweeney
12.Speedie
13.Anderson
14.Budde
15.Greenwood
16.Pearson
17.Shofner
18. Bob Kuechenberg
19. Cliff Harris
20. Cliff Branch
21. Winston Hill
22. Jim Tyrer
23. Otis Taylor
24.Alex Karras
25.Dick Schafrath
Is that in no order, desired order or predicted order?
Tony P I have been told (or read) that both Robinson and Howley have been finalists for the senior candidate selection for several years (annually within the final 15 selected by the full seniors committee and then discussed by the selection committee) so they have support, guessing there has been more interest and push for others, perhaps ignoring or pushing back the chances for Robinson and Howley. But their continued appearance in the final 15 has left me encouraged that with time they will be elected, a larger class in 2020 and returning to 2 seniors every year starting in 2021 would I hope advance their cases faster. Frankly I have no doubt that they both will get elected, my hope (or concern) is that it happens while they are still alive to experience it.
No particular order tony
Good to hear they are in the discussion Paul. My concern too.
“LeBron James accuses Trump of using sports to divide the nation”. Seems to me football players did the dividing by not standing for the National Anthem. Trump only stated what many people were feeling about a perceived lack of patriotism after kneeing went on for months. If players keep “protesting” Football loses. IMO between player behavior, a focus on expanding globally and micro-managing the use of the helmet and other rules away from defense will jeopardize the future of football being America’s number one sport looks shaky. That said, fantasy football, betting and gaming is huge so football won’t disappear just the audiences which could deal a major blow to the NFL’s bottom line. Funny how the NBA players have no problem egging on football players right to protest. LOL
Agree completely, Tony. It’s funny since the NBA handled this properly by prohibiting anthem protests to prevent this crap from getting started there. Where’s LeBron’s criticism of that?
Says a lot about King James that he says he wouldn’t even meet with the President given the chance. LeBron’s a man of his convictions so what’s he afraid of? A meeting not worth furthering his agenda? Comes across as a snowflake who has hurt feelings. He’s know Jim Brown who was one of the first people to meet with Trump.
Most athletes hide behind their social media rhetoric. I suppose you heard, Eagles Malcom Jenkins who to his credit doesn’t hide, said he would never play for the Cowboys because Jerry Jones said he expects his players to stand for the Anthem. So silly that Dallas is talking a hit around the League now. Would be better if the NFL Commissioner had the guts to say everyone is standing period or sitting out. Can’t keep leaving wiggle room.
Fantastic week for Football!! Yah!!!!!
I’m really looking forward to hearing speeches from some all-time great football players. We know Ray Lewis will preach! lol Jerry Kramer is a good speaker and I really want to hear his perspective having waited so long plus hear him talk about Lombardi and his teammates.
Than later this month we all get what we’ve been waiting for in the 2019 Senior player and contributor announcement. I’m hoping for a pleasant surprise.
Yea announcements of 2019 senior candidate and 2019 contributors should be on or around Aug 22-23 if past timing is any indication. Separate committees meet in Canton on back to back days with announcement later each day.
My Final 5
Robinson Howley Slater Baughan Wistert
Good list
My Senior odds :
Robinson 50% The home run pick this year who has great momentum nationally. Would be a
great story.
Howley 15% An inside the park home run. lol Would be a very popular choice with Cowboy
fans and well received by all knowledgeable fans.
Baughn 10% Not the most deserving IMO but up there as a must.
Slater 10% A pick that no one would argue with as deserving but the timing IMO would be
unfortunate with some very deserving players who are alive but very old.
Pearson 10% He would be the most popular WR choice.
Carmichael 5% my surprise pick because the Eagles have been elevated in everyone’s
consciousness by winning the SB
Contributor Odds:
Gil Brandt 50% Over due!!
Robert Kraft 25% Any time now.
George Young 15% One of the best GM’s not in the HOF.
Pat Bowlen 10% A popular Owner but not sure.
Carroll Rosenbloom 5% Not urgent but needs to be recognized by HOF as a great Owner.
Does anyone else think it’s a little gutless of the NFL Hall of Fame to not show TO’s video tribute at the ceremony but have it shown to the TV audiences?
I know the point is to avoid a possible ceremony disruption but hey Owen’s and everyone needs to be shown the ramifications of his sorry decision. Don’t let Owens skate!!
Most definitely Johnny Robinson hands down 2019 Senior Candidate and such an incredible life story. Would “poster boy” for the Pro Football Hall of Fame as far as image is concerned, Most definitely should be the Senior pick this time. He is a future Hall of Fame member for sure.
Gil Brandt is another home run for sure. He knows football and has the reputation to bake it up. Long overdue as well. These two would be the perfect two guys for induction. Absolutely perfect.
Having following senior candidate selections for many years, most years the selection(s) are both a surprise and disappointment, as much as I really hope for Robinson and Howley-and do think both are top deserving candidates and getting plenty of hype-I have been down the annual road of frustration too often not seeing their names called to get too excited about it again this year!
As to the contributors selection (which have been somewhat more predictive), I would say Bowlen is 99% certain odds, with Brandt and Young next. I really do not think any owner will get in before Bowlen, and with 2 slots the other likely to go to GM/Scout role.
And yes I think the PFHOF is being a little petty by not at least showing the Owens intro video at the actual event-what are they worried about; boos or cheers of support for him from the crowd, both of which would not play well on live TV ??? Go ahead mention is name, show his video at top of event/show and move on to focus 99% of time on the seven other deserving enshrinees who had the respect and appreciation for the honor to attend to receive it. By omitting references to TO they are giving him more attention , and feeding his claim of disrespect, than if they simply acknowledged him. PFHOF inactions is actually making this more of story than it needs to be,
Paul, I know where you’re coming from. Lets hope this year begins a trend off last year of picking some of the most argued for Seniors over the past decade. You’re hunch about Bowlen may very well be correct. Although I’m less confident than Robinson being the pick and I just haven’t looked into how deserving he is over the others.
The HOF caved a little to pressure from the media that by omitting Owens entirely the were being petty and wrong too.
I of course agree with Robert’s sentiment about this year’s scenario for a successful 2019. :)
Tony I really do hope the recent trend continues, but with 5 rotating committee making the selection each year, hard to say whether any trends in terms of approach or even the top ranked candidates carries from year to next as the mix of voters changes each year.
And yes Robinson/Howley and Bowlen+Brandt would be a TD of selections! Is it too much to ask or expect?????
i’m optimistic but also am aware I should maybe be singing The Who song, “We won’t get fooled again” when it comes to the process. lol
Congrats to Class of 2018 on their special day
agreed paul could we have 3 first timers in 2019 like we did this year
Yep as Bailey Gonzalez Reed are 1st ballot locks, thinking two OL from 2018 final 10: Mawee and Boselli (or Faneca) with Law as wildcard
im thinking the same thing paul i think the ol vote could get interesting
This might be unpopular, but if it were up to me, a senior inductee would be the last to speak every year. I would honestly have closed the show with Jerry Kramer.
Robert I actually the 2019 moderns election is going to be fairly predictable with 3 locks and perhaps 3-4 getting the other 2 slots. I just do not see any one else from 25 semifinalists from 2018 getting past the 2018 final 10 that remain in the ballot including any on modern ballot for last time. And all of 3 + 3-4 are also all decade team members which this panel of voters seems to love
I enjoyed all the speeches. Probably Dawkins the least because I’m old fashioned about time and place for such personal stuff as mental health. Can’t not love his spirit to succeed and toughness on the field at his size.. Whatever you think about Ray Lewis’s past he is an impressive man today as is Randy Moss. I thought Jerry Kramer flat out nailed his speech especially considering his age. I knew he would deliver. :) I was even more impressed with Brian Urlacher after learning of his rise from humble beginnings and his overall humble manner with his teammates. I loved hearing how appreciative Brazile was of his teammates and coaches. I wasn’t sure if he felt that way about his time in Houston. A great guy and deserving HOF member.
In the end I’ll admit it was for the best their was no mention of TO being his usual horse’s ass self. He had a shot to show millions he cared about someone other than himself and he blew it. Nothing he does or says now will ever change my opinion about him up to this point in his life. He’s a taker at heart and a bad teammate. I never saw the player tribute to Owens. Was it in the very beginning?
Player tribute of TO was not shown in the stadium during PFHOF event, but both networks showed plus coverage of his event and discussed him, so at least as far as the televised portion TO git his fair air time
And I am thinking next years event will be less controversial as I don’t see any underlying issues or histories with those likely to be selected. Sure some fans will no doubt be upset if their favorite modern or senior candidate is not elected, and call Hall and process a sham because a certain person is not in (Broncos fans, Raiders fans etc…) but we all know that limited slots and many deserving is always going to result in that anger and frustration. If Bowlen is not a contributor I would guess that would create the biggest outcry
Corey, I certainly see the sentiment of having Kramer go last because it was such a special deal for him waiting as long as he did. I’m not totally sure about protocol but I’m thinking it’s probably better for the older inductees to go first because it’s a long time sitting there when you go last. Only thing I would of started with Beathard who didn’t speak to the crowd. but that’s minor.
Oh I didn’t watch that TO crap on earlier. LOL No, I thought they were going to show his video tribute as part of the Canton Ceremony for the TV audience but not for the crowd that’s why I was dissing the HOF decision. They could play TO all day long outside of the Canton ceremony and I wasn’t watching. lol
As I said TO tribute was part of the televised event
Tony p the criticism of to is getting old and repetitive
Robert, I’ll accept criticism for diverting the conversation off football once in a while but no contributor on this site tells another what or how often to say what they want about Football. If you don’t like to hear opinion on the day after (and leading up to the day) a HOFer to be, historically blows off the NFL HOF on a NFL HOF post you should find another site a little more tame. I’m betting you won’t find one. lol
Paul, I only watched from 6 pm CST when the the event started. I missed a few minutes at the start but didn’t think I could of missed a TO video in such a short time but I guess I did. Thanks.
I hope ZoneBlitz comes out with a new article soon. Sorry for being repetitive about that. lol
Tony Gonzalez and Ed Reed are a HOF givens for 2019. Who’s the 3rd one Paul?
Apparently at the Friday PFHOFer only lunch they discussed idea of having every 25 semifinalist sign agreement that if elected they will attend. Getting bad press today directed at the Hall and voters (who did not even raise the idea), thinking and hoping that the PFHOF Board and staff see this a dumb idea and disregard it. Lets all move on from TO, his whole career to date has been as an outsider, doing his own thing right or wrong without caring of what is best or others think or would support. No need for the PFHOF to overreact as I can not think of any current or future PFHOF candidate, some of whom are waiting decades, who would take the same approach once elected and not attend to receive the honor.
Tony P that would be CB Champ Bailey 3(2)/12/2000s
oh no, stories are now out that at the PFHOF Board meeting this past week there was support for the idea of requiring each 25 semifinalist to sign agreement that they would attend even if elected, Board directed staff and lawyers to draft such a policy. PFHOF is really heading down a stupid and unnecessary and unpopular path with this if proceeds.
Thanks Paul. I understand that some of the HOF members and committee must be furious but having one person step out of line does not make a trend and to have players sign a paper is totally a knee jerk reaction. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.
I sure hope so as several voters have already spoke out against the idea. I have supported the PFHOF, the election process and voters even through I may not agree with the outcome of elections every year. But I will not defend this policy if put into place and will state so widely on social media and directly through channels to the PFHOF Board and staff as it only tarnishs a professional reputation under attack from many
The HOF is guilty of feeling itself too much. Some backlash should get them to thinking but I’m not sure political pressure will really effect them if they are determined to do this. Just like bad press didn’t change Augusta National Golf Course policies of no women members for years.
Pressure may come from the high profile voters who are opposed and speaking out against the idea
I wonder who makes them Voters and might they be replaced if they cause too much of a stink? Unless they band together. Always strength in numbers, It will be interesting to see what happens.
PFHOF Board appoints the voters, I am not aware of the Board removing voters but some have retired and resigned in past. I suppose if some voters are strongly opposed if this policy is enacted we could see some high profile resignations
Senior candidate to be announced next Thursday Aug 16, two contributors one week later on Thursday Aug 23 (saw posted on twitter by committee member)
I’m not saying I didn’t enjoy the speech’s but Moss, Lewis and Dawkins all seemed “preachy” to me. They were all very impassioned and made good points but I would have appreciated a little more football with there personal stories. I really enjoyed Brazile, Kramer and Urlacher because they talked of previous teammates and coach’s. Don’t get me wrong, they all have a personal life story or life changing event that I want to hear about but I also love hearing about football!
I’ll go johnny Robinson or howley as the senior nom but watch it be someone else,and to Tony p. I agree this is the tamest to site debate I’ve ever seen
I’m going to guess L.C. Greenwood again as the senior nominee.
For contributors, I will guess Pat Bowlen and Gil Brandt
Johny Robinson for 2019 Senior Candidate. Listen to the Lance Alworth interview on Talk of Fame Network. No question that Johnny Robinson should be inducted this coming year. He was remarkable. His credentials are amazing. Most deserving as the only player now left on the Pro Football Hall of Fame Combined Team of the Decade 1960s who is not inducted now that Jerry Kramer made it. That team was the best of the best selected by the HOF Selectors from both the AFL and NFL All Decade Teams. The Combined Team is most likely the ultimate team of all time. look at who is on it. All are legendary players such as Jim Brown, Gayle Sayers, Dick Butkis, Johnny Unitis and Lance Alworth to name a few. All are Hall of Fame inductees except Johnny Robinson.. Its time for him to be inducted and join his team mates there.
I’ve got Greenwood in my top 10 scenario at 9 but his nomination would only be bunt single for me considering who’s out there looking in.
http://www.profootballhof.com/the-class-of-2019-selection-process-to-begin-/
I’ve got a question especially for Cowboy fans. I saw LeRoy Jordan his last 5 years in the NFL and I thought he was one of the best MLB’s in the League, probably HOF great when you add in his leadership. Accolades aside who would you say was the better Cowboy player Jordan or Howley? I never saw Howley much.
And might the position Howley played be holding him back like it did Robinson from being a HOFer? I’m thinking there aren’t many LB’s in the HOF who aren’t MLB.
I like LeRoy Jordaon a ton, but maybe just a notch below HOF worthy. But if he did get in, there are certainly less impressive players in the HOF. Some Of the better Outside LBS in the Hall include:
1. Lawrence Taylor
2. Jack ham
3. Derrick Thoms
4. Andre Tippett (strong side OLB) Very Rare in HOF
5. Rickey Jackson
6. Robert Brazile
7. Dave Wilcox
8. Dave Robinson
id be ok with leroy jordan considering he has a 5/2 profile
I didn’t realize so many non – MLB’s were in the HOF. Looking a at few of those names makes me think the Howley slight is even worse than I thought before.
I concur Tony
I just don’t think a 1(1)/5 profile is a PFHOFer, especially the many seniors candidates not in but having much better profiles and yes no way way Jordon should get in before Howley, who was among best players in two SBs-certainly the best defensive player in those
I remember Tippett as a crazy great pass rusher for a couple years but I don’t remember him standing out much past that. Teams were trying to come up with L.T. clones in the 80’s with Tippett, D. Thomas, Ricky Jackson etc.. Still I was really surprised when Tippet was chosen for the HOF. I was like really I guess my early twenties really were a bit of a blur. lol Honestly I probably didn’t appreciate his play as much as I could of. Pro Reference says he has 1 career Int. That’s got to be a mistake, right? lol
One thing I do remember is the AFC’s talent compared to the NFC was pretty weak especially on Defense.
I’m not old enough to have watched them live so my knowledge comes from historical research and what game footage I can find, but I think Howley had a better overall career. Jordan played the more important position, especially in Landry’s defense. I would support Jordan’s induction too. He’s the type of Cowboy HoF candidate we should be discussing if it wasn’t for the insane omissions still out there like Howley. It’s hard to even spend time arguing for guys like Jordan, Perkins, Martin, Niland, Green, etc. when we haven’t even been able to get Chuck Howley’s case heard once.
completely agree rasputin
Spot on Rasputin. Would love to move forward a decade or two.
So who is everyone’s pick as the 2019 senior nominee
curious ques how does john niland looks in film study or where would you rank him among deserving o linemen
Behind Bob Kuechenberg :) but certainly in the mix with the Guards at the top which includes Kooch, Walt Sweeney, Ed Budde and Dennis Harrah. Maybe Bill could add the value of film study on these guys? Very possible none of these top Guards make the HOF.
Pick goes to Johnny Robinson for 2019 Senior Candidate. Absolutely, it’s about time. This man is part of pro football history. The winning-est player in AFL history. Unbelievable career and dominated the position of safety in pro football. His accolades speak for itself. When they ran down his accomplishments in that podcast I was wondering how could he not already be in the Hall of Fame. He was 8x All Pro (6 API First Teams), 7 Pro Bowls, 2x Interception Leader AFL/NFL. He was too great not to be inducted if that’s really what the Pro Football Hall of Fame is all about. Honoring the best and greatest players ever to play pro football. Johnny Robinson literally wrote the book on how to play free safety in modern football. When your opponents sing your praises then the HOF should listen. Great athlete and great human being! This would be a great pick for the Hall of Fame. They need someone to lift up to the kids as a role model and really give pro football a positive image. Johnny Robinson is your man!
!. Johnny Robinson (Easy Pick this time. Every First Team player on the PFHOF Combined Team of 60s is enshrined except Robinson. Can’t do that to that man. Don’t let him be the only one not inducted.)
2. Howley
3 Slater
4 Baughan
5. Wistert
24 hrs out till they announce the senior nominee who is our final pick
I’d have John Niland (3/6/none) in the mix somewhere, but have no idea how he looks in film study. Guard of course is a badly neglected position re the HoF. Players like Dick Barwegen (5/4/50s), Duane Putnam (5/5/none), Jim Ray Smith (4/5/none), Ken Gray (4/6/none), Gale Gillingham (5/5/none), Walt Sweeney (4/9/allAFL), Ed Budde (3/7/allAFL), and Bob Kuechenberg (2/6/none) all merit a look at the very least.
Smith grades out very well at Ken Crippen’s site in the few games they looked at. Ed White (2/4/none) supposedly looks better on film than his honors suggest. Don’t know about the rest.
Going with Johnny Robinson but any surprising dark horses we should be aware of?
since 2010 only 4 senior inductees have been considered as modern era nominees Guy Humphrey Stabler Kramer and if my math is correct 11 were never considered modern era Lebeau Little Hanburger Richter Butler Stanfel Culp Robinson Tingelhoff Easley Brazile.
Johnny robinson-2019 senior nominee
Ya baby!!!!! Way to go Committee on knocking it out of the park and great work to everyone who supported him. I’m so happy!!!!!!!! Congrats to Johnny Robinson. !! :)
I concur tony its a grand slam pick
About damn time. Slowly but surely they’re getting there. A home run/slam dunk choice.
Finally. That’s all I can say.
Looks like it’s indeed Johnny Robinson. Great choice, for sure. Extremely deserving, still alive and very old, got screwed over when he was a regular finalist because of AFL bias. 6/7/allAFL profile and all reports suggest he looks great in film study. Can’t argue this one. Congratulations!
This makes my day. It makes my weekend. I am beyond ecstatic. For years I have called for Robinson’s name. I emailed Gosselin about five years ago asking why Robinson wasn’t in, bewildered that they selected Curley Culp, Dave Robinson and Ken Stabler while Johnny Robinson kept on waiting.
Considering the Senior Committee has selected Tingelhotf, Easley, Kramer and Brazile, they’ve done some great work.
Lots of names would have made me happy today. Nobody, however, would have made me happier than I am for Johnny Robinson. This should have been done decades prior.
Let’s hope this recent trend continues of slam dunk choices from the Seniors Commitee. Tingelhoff was great and well deserved. Easley and Brazile were rock solid too.
Kramer, Robinson and Chuck Howley was my Top 3. Two down, one to go.
Now Robinson just needs to be elected.
The voters will do the right thing and elect him in February, right?
right
Great selection and I have no doubt full committee will affirm this selection in February
I agree Paul.
Where is ZoneBlitz on this story and HOF inductions before? This website is starting to feel like a rudderless ship cast adrift according to the seas and tides. Good thing it has loyal posters or wouldn’t have any hits.
agreed I am going to stick with it here until after contributors announcement next Thursday nd then may step up my own PFHOF blog. What others exist? Did PFRA close theirs down or make member access only and if so how does one become a member?
Agreed with Paul I’m staying around till next thurs and then I’m out
Let me know what happens with your blog Paul. I guess I’ll frequent Rick Gosselin’s Talk of Fame Network more often.
I see Tony Tellijohn is rweeting on ZoneBlitz’s twitter. Can’t imagine they would abandon website without making an announcement. Maybe something happened to Andy? Anyone have a Twitter account to ask Tony? I refuse to get one. LOL
I just sent him a tweet via their twitter account which does appear active, see if I can a answer as to why this entire website and blog appears abandoned. Looking to have my blog set up for announcement of 2019 preliminary list, will have name searchable so as to easily find
Rick Gosselin on Twitter last night:
Here are the Cowboys in the senior pool for the Pro Football Hall of Fame: Chuck Howley, Dew Pearson, Cliff Harris, Everson Walls, Lee Roy Jordan, Harvey Martin. OK, Cowboys fans, prioritize them for me.
Howley Pearson Harris Jordan Martin Walls is my order
Someone should tell him it’s not that hard as Howley has 5 all pro selections and SB MVP then Pearson and Harris as 70s all decade first team members (only ones not already in)
Easy to prioritize, agreed with Paul.
Yes:
Chuck Howley
Cliff Harris
Drew Pearson
On the fence:
Lee Roy Jordan
No:
Harvey Martin
Everson Walls
I would also have John Niland and Cornell Green in the “on the fence” category. Not sure how I’d order these three.
The two contributor nominees are selected next week.
Who is in everyone’s Top 5?
Pat Bowlen
Robert Kraft
Gil Brandt
George Young
Steve Sabol
Art McNally?
Art McNally and Bucko Kilroy would both be good choices. McNally is now 93 years old. Kilroy was also selected to the All Decade 1940s team as an OL alongside Eagles teammate Al Wistert, before his distinguished career in scouting and the front office.
Hey guys…sorry we haven’t been active here much–we kind of go into hibernation mode after the Super Bowl for a bit, and had a tough time getting out of that mode between work & kids. We actually had some things planned to change up the site some this offseason, but those plans fell through, so we’re going to shoot for later this year or during the down time next for that. We have tried to keep up with the comments (and I did notice we’ve had some new contributors here lately, which is great), and honestly you guys do a better job discussing it often than Andy or I would. Hell, if anyone wants to contribute more formally to the site, drop me a note at tony(at)zoneblitz.com and we can maybe figure something out.
In the mean time, I did put together a quick post about Robinson being selected: https://www.zoneblitz.com/2018/08/20/johnny-robinson-named-class-2019-senior-finalist-hall-fame/
Just quick notes and contributions:
My Cowboys in order for Rick G:
1. Chuck Howley
2. Drew Pearson
3. Cliff Harris
4. Lee Roy Jordan
5. Everson Walls
6. John Niland
I mentioned earlier that there are only a few outside LB’s in the HOF. One of them is Andre Tippet. He is a true rarity! He was a strong side LB with 100 sacks. With most 90 percent of QB’s being Right handed, that means Tippett rushed a QB that could see him coming. Think about highlights of Lawrence Taylor, Derrick Thomas and Rickey Jackson. Those QB hits and sacks come from the Qb’s “blind side.” Tippett is the only Strong side LB with 100 career sacks.
Johnny Robinson is a great senior nominee. I assume now that Chuck Howley will be the next Senior that people will champion for. With two people being nominated the following year, who is the other player people would like to see considered? Me personally- L.C. Greenwood
Kraft and Sabol would be my Contributor nominees
I think it will be very interesting and unknown territory moving forward with the future of the senior candidate.
First, with the class of 2019 nominations the 5 year “trial” period of alternating 1-2 slots between senior candidates and contributors ends. So the PFHOF Board will need to revise the election rules to address procedures for electing those positions for 2020 and beyond (may have already made that decision at their meeting a few weeks ago, but yet to announce). Will them choose to keep with the rotation, or fix seniors with 2 slots and contributors 1 slot, will they add coaches to the contributors group? Second, what about the proposal to have a special larger class of seniors in 2020 in celebration of the 100th anniversary of the league? Views on social media, including from some voters and others familiar with the Hall, seem to suggest support for such an idea is mixed at best. Guess we wait and see what decisions are made.
And yes it does appear that the last two elections including Kramer and now Robinson have cleared out candidates that have often dominated the debate regarding the senior candidates, and would appear that Howley (with his 5x 1st time all pro selections-anyone not in the Hall already with that number?) is next in line. But certainly public opinion-and social media-discussions are divided among apparently at least strong public support for several others, most notably Bronco fans for Randy Gradishar but also for several Raiders, Roman Gabriel, Joe Kleco, Ken Anderson are also names often mentioned (but I am not so sure such pressure or in some cases social media “outrage” really impacts the voters. Will be interesting to see how Howley fairs in coming years and other selections by the committee.
Oh and I see we have a new post on the board with announcement of the senior candidate selection!
There is certainly a great deal to know about this topic.
I love all the points you have made.