We now know who the 15-person Centennial Slate for the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Class of 2020 will be.
Coaches-turned-broadcasters Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cowher were notified on air during last weekend’s broadcasts that they had made the Hall.
The rest of the slate was announced today. In addition to the two coaches, three contributors were named:
- Steve Sabol, administrator and president of NFL Films
- Paul Tagliabue, commissioner from 1989-2006
- George Young, contributor to the league and general manager for three teams, most notably the Giants from 1979-1997
Ten players were inducted, as well.
- WR Harold Carmichael
- T Jimbo Covert
- S Bobby Dillon
- S Cliff Harris
- T Winston Hill
- DT Alex Karras
- S Donnie Shell
- T Duke Slater
- E Mac Speedie
- DE/LB/E Ed Sprinkle
I’ll weigh in on some of these picks more specifically at a later date. I don’t have time to do a ton of research at the moment — the day job wins out today. But I will say my first reaction is that I’m a little disappointed, not so much with most of the guys who did get in (there are a couple I question, but for the most part I think most of these guys are on the lists of folks bantered about as worthy on this site regularly), but with some who didn’t even seem to get much consideration.
More later — but debate away.
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At least owners didnt make it…but Hay would have been okay
So happy for Winston Hill and Karras,
Will wait for Pearson, Branch, Lewellen and Gradishar
Will Polamalu or Faneca be left off ?
Believe these results will affect/influence the modern picks
I could not have been more wrong with my predictions1
Congratulations to Harris, Dillon and Hill. I’m alright with Shell, I guess. I don’t know enough about Slater or Speedie, so I can’t say either way.
The rest of this list? My goodness. Carmichael? Over Branch? Seriously? Covert? What did he do that was Canton worthy, and over Wistert on top of it?
Plus Karras got selected at defensive tackle but Gradishar got left off completely? The 2/7 Defensive Player of the Year Randy Gradishar is still not a Hall of Famer?
The Centennial Class had a chance to do so much good, to right some wrongs. Instead, I see three wrongs corrected, some I’m alright with and the rest watered down with undeserving players.
The Hall, in some ways, got worse today, not better. Some of the worst members, some of the most undeserving members, got selected with this class.
Corey, you’ve brought up a couple of the names I want to look into a bit more. Shocked Carmichael got in over Branch and Pearson. Had never really heard Covert mentioned — even though he was player of the decade for the 80s, is he a better candidate than Jacoby? Or Jim Tyrer for that matter? Need to do some reading up on this. And then to leave out altogether guys with some great resumes — you mention Gradishar. Chuck Howley is the one that sticks in my craw. so … I know there are guys I would have preferred seeing inducted. I’m not yet how sure if I’m undervaluing some of the guys who unexpectedly made the list.
I doubt the regular election committee voters selecting modern candidates will be influenced by these BRP selections, in fact many have been dismissive of BRP since start, some likely more so now with Tagliabue elected, regular voters will make their own picks based only on their discussions
Only right on Hill, Slater and Shell out of 15 choices, back in the summer…
Didnt think Chicago would have multiple players over the Pack.
Dallas and Pitt join on multiples counting coaches.
I’m not sold on either Covert or Jacoby, quite honestly.
Both Howley and Gradishar are major omissions. Whoever voted on/selected this list dropped the call big time.
Lavern Dilweg, Drew Pearson, Al Wistert,Bruno Banducci and Ox Emerson remaining 1st team all decade members still not in, only two got in this class Covert and Harris
Honestly, it almost seems as if the committee purposely picked the 10 worst options available with an eye towards how difficult it would be to enshrine them via subsequent Senior nominations. Of course if that were uniformly the case, Cecil Isbell and Tommy Nobis would have been enshrined instead of Duke Slater and Cliff Harris. Seriously, I can’t think of any other rationale for this group. But seven of the snubs were the best available options: Dilweg, Wistert, Lewellen, Emerson, Gradishar, Branch, Pearson.
Covert and Sprinkle are especially ridiculous choices. Far as I’m concerned, they have utterly no business in the HoF. Joe Fortunato would have been a better Bears choice than either.
John Turney quoted Rich Gosselin as saying “All 20 are HOFers, it’s a matter of when.” But of course there’s no guarantee for any of them now. We’ll see if he speaks with forked tongue or not.
Could be a chance of Five offensive lineman and four/five safeties getting in.
Only 6 of 15 centennial class members are still alive?
“Only 6 of 15 centennial class members are still alive?”
I dunno. The PFHoF seems to take some kind of perverse glee out of enshining people after they die. Which may be why all of Billy Howton, Del Shofner, Jim Ray Smith, Chuck Howley, and Maxie Baughan got left off the top 20 list.
I disagree Paul, I think todays decisions could definitely affect Faneca and Atwater, while helping Hutchinson, because I doubt three Steelers plus Cowher get in.
I agree with Bachslunch, the BRP may have put in some that wouldnt have otherwise gotten elected anytime soon. Especially Tagliabue
Thinking five offensive lineman with Slater, Hill, Covert, Hutchinson and maybe Boselli
And just Polamalu going in with Dillon, Harris and Shell.
In defence of Carmichael, his numbers, especially TDs were good, but how can you deny the six SB appearances of Pearson and Branch ?
I like Speedie, but his 33 TDs will be the lowest amount for a receiver or running back going back to the single wing days, where Lewellen had more. He was an important part of a dynasty however.
correction: 7 out of 15 alive
“I disagree Paul, I think todays decisions could definitely affect Faneca and Atwater, while helping Hutchinson, because I doubt three Steelers plus Cowher get in. ”
Very possible, but can’t state strong enough that BRP (even with its 13 hall voters) is a much different group of people compared to all 48 regular hall voters-hence Tagliabue election. Its a large class of 20, and its very likely that deserving players like Faneca and TroyP still get elected.
Despite seeing Pearsons disappointment today on Twitter, I believe the senior commitee will put him in the Hall in the next two years.
Be honest Paul, deserving of not, would you put four Steelers in only 17 player/coaches spots ?
Brian good luck predicting what the committee will now do with the mess left behind today by BRP, the panel really dropped a load of crap problems still needing addressing on to the seniors committee. And many of us have spent years trying to predict or encourage the seniors committee on their selections-yet rarely seen success on that front, oh sure its great Kramer and Robinson got elected, but look back 10-15 years and ask yourself if the committee is consistantly close to right??
“Be honest Paul, deserving of not, would you put four Steelers in only 17 player/coaches spots ?”
TroyP and Faneca deserve to be in, we have had a class of 7 with 3 49ers, I don’t have problem with 4 Steelers out of 17 especially across three different catagories. Sorry, but Faneca has been in final 10 last few years, in my view clearly the most deserving returning modern candidate, but now he has to wait another year because Cowher and Shell were elected, bull#$%@ The only issue the selection committee should be considering is most deserving and not counting teams.
This whole thing was a bust. Harris, Dillon and Hill going in salvages little, but not much of this class. We could’ve had Cliff Branch, Randy Gradishar and Al Wistert elected today, and they give us Jim Covert, Alex a Karras and Harold Carmichael.
Epic fail.
I understand Paul, we are just discussing, but like the BRP today, players were spread out amongst the teams and right or wrong, I believe it will continue amongst the modern candidates, since alot of them ARE deserving.
I thought for certain the Packers would have multiples but like Pearson/ Harris, teammates Dilweg and Lewellen didnt get in.
with intended aim of BRP to clear out backlog, electing WR Harold Carmichael and T Jimbo Covert, were terrible wasted picks that don’t address that problem at all, yes I would like to see Pearson elected, but honesty there are several other finalists who would have also been better and more acceptable to me than those two. never expected process or my predictions to be perfect (neither ever are), but had higher expectations BRP. Yes 10 clears out the senior pool-well 8 do-so that is a huge benefit we have also asked for and been looking to happen for years, but this process in my view still felt short
Brian I am not surprised that the BRP was perhaps aware of and looking to avoid giving two slots of out 10 to one team, but I don’ t think the selection committee will view their 5 slots in the context of the 17 or 20 total.
After some reflection, I’m feeling better about the 15 centennial class members. I’ll start with the easy ones: contributors.
George Young was a slam dunk. One can argue that GM’s should be included, but if they are, then he is worthy — 5 time executive of the year.
Tagliabue is also highly worthy. We need only look at Goodell, who is a rightly criticized on many fronts. Tagliabue proceeded over incredible growth, but he never seemed to jeopardize or cheapen the game. There was no Thursday night football during his tenure. There were no regular season games in London or Mexico. Moreover, he never had a deflate gate mess or any of the other scandals that have occurred in recent years. While that is in part because Tagliabue pre-dates the 24-hour sports news cycle and social media, that is also because Tagliabue would have handled such situations differently. Several have noted that Goodell relishes the fights and basically put a sting operation in place for deflate gate. Tagliabue would have called and said knock it off. Just as he did with Bill Walsh’s headset shenanigans. I feel Tagliabue understood one should put the game first and not the dollar. This is supported by the overwhelming support he has publically had from the GM/insider types. from this perspective, he belongs.
Sabol is also a good choice. He was the face and voice of NFL films for most of my life. The first time I remember seeing Ed Sabol was on the day of his induction. For those of us in our 40s, Sabol was the second most visible non-coach/player in the NFL behind only Rozelle.
Next the coaches: I’m on record as not supporting Jimmy Johnson. I think he was a mediocre coach for most of his career, but caught lightning in a bottle with some amazing drafts (which he should and does get credit) that he simply couldn’t replicate in Miami. His career wins total and winning percentage are significantly below HOF standards (% only ahead of Weeb Ewbank who is a special case having been the winning coach in the two most important games in NFL history). That said, if we are going to lower the standard for what a HOF coach is, then I have no objection to his induction and the induction of Cowher. And, honestly, I think the HOF intends to do just that. There is considerable talk about creating a “coaches” category. If that is the case, then they want more coaches inducted, and Jimmy Johnson (and Bill Cowher) are as good a place to start as any other (although I might have started with Marty Schottenheimer who only had 2 losing seasons in the 21 he coached — Johnson had 2 in 9 and Cowher at 3 in 15). Simply put, one doesn’t have to be Belichick or Noll or Gibbs to get into the HOF as a coach going forward, and I’m ok with that if that is what the HOF wants to do.
Seniors: Look, these aren’t the 10 I would have selected. But, most are highly worthy. None of us are realistically complaining about Slater, Speedie, Dillon, Harris, and Hill. That is half the class (see I’m trying to view this as half full rather than half empty).
I’ve heard some complaints about Karras, which I just don’t understand. He was one of my top three or four favorites on this list. He played on a great and underappreciated defense in Detroit. Testimonials are exceptional. He also ranks very well on the recently created HOF monitor on pro-football-reference. The only non-HOFers above him are two 5 time all pros (Aaron Donald and Kevin Williams (I know, I was surprised to see that too)). He is significantly above Buck Buchanan who was just selected to the 100 anniversary team and nearly double Joe Klecko who is often mentioned as a possible HOFer. In short, Karras is a great choice in my mind.
While I was initially disappointed by the inclusion of Spinkle, Rasputin has made some very strong arguments. The more I researched today, the more I’ve come around. At a minimum, his inclusion does not lower the standards of the HOF.
That leads me to Shell. I was shocked by his inclusion, but not necessarily because I thought he was a bad candidate. I just didn’t think it was his time. That said, he had almost the exact same career as Mel Renfro (half the pro bowls but three times the all pros), Roger Wherli, and John Lynch according to pro football references HOF monitor. Not bad company. If he had not been the fifth best player signed by Pittsburgh in 1974 (easily the best collection of rookies in history) after Swann, Stallworth, Lambert, and Webster, then maybe he would already be in the HOF. Steeler fatigue clearly has played a part in keeping him out until now.
That means, I understand (if not agree) with 80% of the selections. That is pretty good.
That leads me to Carmichael and Covert. I won’t try to defend Covert. I think his short career and relatively few honors are insufficient for the hall. He was “famous” for a left tackle, and a personal favorite of lots of people. This certainly helps. When healthy, he definitely mauled people. That just wasn’t often enough for my taste. However, he was all decade, and I can at least find a silver lining in that his induction clearly helps Joe Jacoby (the last great Redskins from the Gibbs years that should be inducted).
Regarding Carmichael, I’ve done a lot of research today, and frankly, his inclusion is growing on me. I don’t love his post-season honors (0/4/2d team 70s), but his numbers are much better especially when compared to his contemporaries. He had 89 more receptions (nearly 20% more), 300 more yards, and 12 more TDs (again almost 20% more), than Cliff Branch in the same 14 year career. Obviously, his counting stats are more than Pearson because he played 3 years longer, but even if you reduce Carmichael’s career by 21% (3/14th), he still has 14 more TDs than Pearson (which is HUGE), and only 23 less receptions, 700 or so yards less. Therefore, on counting stats, he is superior or even with both Branch and Pearson. If you use per season stats, he is still pretty good: Branch led the league three times in the one of the top 3 receiving categories (catches, yards, TDs), Carmichael twice, and Pearson only once. Of course, Pearson played for a much more successful team and had many more “signature” moments, but that can’t be the only criteria for the HOF. Otherwise, Julian Edelman will be a clear HOF and Calvin Johnson would be just another guy. In sum, I still don’t necessarily agree with Carmichael over Branch and Pearson, but his inclusion is far from an embarrassment. He can also be given additional bonus points for being ahead of his time. While there still aren’t too many 6’8” receivers, there were simply no big receivers before him. Guys like Art Monk, Calvin Johnson, and TO would have played different positions in the old days.
Therefore, in sum, 5 (or 50%) of the seniors are good to great choices, another 3 are solid to good, and another is easily defensible. That just leaves be scratching my head about Covert. Viewed this way, I’ve gained some perspective and started looking at this from the glass half full way. Doesn’t mean that those of you who are upset lack perspective (at all). I just wanted to express my thoughts in case it helps you as well.
Yes, we all didnt have everyone we would have liked make it, but I am still glad that owners didnt overshadow this class, though Tagliabue is divided.
We get angry over some players not making it, but like Corey showed on the last thread, alot of great players like Howley, Jackson, Meador, Baughan, Retzlaff, etc didnt even make this list, so hopefully, the HOF committees will add at least two seniors every year and clear up more players, though this class despite the HOF “production” still got in alot of deserving players.
And where’s Robert today ?
So far he leads on picks but do you ever notice that he and superman are never around at the same time ? Haha…
It feels like the Hall of Fame was watered down with these selections. I see a loss in credibility for some of these selections. I’ve never seen Covert as a Hall of Famer, ever.
Frankly, I’m not a fan of Carmichael or Pearson. I feel bad for Pearson personally, but I feel neither he nor Carmichael belong. Harold Jackson and Cliff Branch still have yet to the get the busts they so richly deserve, while Carmichael has to be one of the worst players at any position in the Hall. I think Carmichael was a better choice than Lynn Swann, but that’s a low bar to clear.
The voters had all these seniors, both nominated and not nominated? This is what they choose? Sure, they got their Alan Trammell’s and Ted Simmons’ in Harris, Dillon and Hill, all righting of wrongs. Then they got their Harold Baines’ and Jack Morris’ in Harold Carmichael and Jim Covert.
If youre looking at regular season numbers Corey, youre argument toward Pearson has weight but Pearson was part of three Cowboys teams that went to the Super Bowl, and he came close three other seasons. His postseason numbers like Branch are huge and his clutch catches WON three postseason games and it would have been a fourth and a SB berth, if he breaks Eric Wrights horse collar tackle against SF…either way, the Cowboys should have won, but Danny White fumbled.
Winning and Postseason numbers should ALWAYS help a player get in the Hall, and if it wasnt for the Steelers, both Pearson and Branch would have had possibly EIGHT rings between them, but neither make the Hall.
Good post,Justin
From what I’ve gathered, Covert was thought of at least as highly as Jacoby when both were at their peaks and in some circles slightly higher
The thing is though, is that I don’t look at how much a player won in their career. Winning is a team thing and the Hall of Fame is an individual accomplishment. Rings are irrelevant to me when I evaluate a potential Hall of Famer.
Should Jackson be kept out of Canton because his teams never won anything? I don’t think that’s fair to Jackson.
If anyone’s wondering why I think Ed Sprinkle is a mistake of titanic proportions, here are various reactions from over at the PFRA site. Sprinkle’s enshrinement, especially above other options, is being universally condemned over there and for good reason. Excerpts:
John Turney:
Sprinkle, to me, lowers the bar so much it’s frustrating.
First, his 1940s All_Decade is dubious at best, though for that era
a mythical 1945-55 would be a fit.
But the thing is, these people say they’ve watched film or he got in
according to Pompei based on film studty
TJ and I saw basically the same thing. A small guy, neither fast nor quick
who was a good arc rusher, but didn’t seem to vary his rush but
was targeted in the run game. Teams would run off tackle on him
Maybe part of it Clark Shaughnessy’s schemes being weird.
But I can buy Hall of Very good, some DEs not good vs run and could
rush okay despite not great natural talent (size, speed, quickness)
but when you have documented film and he’s not dominant
you have to wonder what kind of study was really done.
Or TJ and I are idiots. Maybe we are.
—
Reaser:
Is interesting to wonder, what exactly did they see?
I had him on my list of “definitely not HOF” based on the film I’ve seen.
—
John Turney:
Makes me wonder if they are just looking at highlights of him ripping of a helmet or two
I dunno—but when TJ tells me he has notes on Rams just killing Sprinkle with off-tackle runs
year after year (TJ big Bears) fan, I trust him. I’ve seen a lot, but less than TJ and Nick
he looks okay. But so does Jack Zilly and Bill McPeak. Poole, etc…seem similar
More like John Zook than a Humphrey or a Dryer than a Youngblood or a JIm Marshall rathr
than Eller…
Marshall tons better on film from 1964-70 than anything I see out of Sprinkle.
—
John Turney:
I think that’s right, but you mention some, Brink, Jack Zilly was good, Ray Poole was every bit as noticable as Sprinke. Prob Barney Bool, too.
You’ve seen film, those DE are out wide, often blocked by a guard—so it’s repetitious. So, unless you see a DE really flash, he’s just a guy.
None of has seen to legendary 8-sack game of Willey, but I have film of Willey–FAR more noticeable than Sprinkle. You see him flash more
than most. Is he HOF? I don’t think so, but IMO, and I am no expert Willey > Sprinkle.
Heck George Young flashes some for Cle. … Nick and TJ would agree—Clay Matthews the original looks as good if not better than Sprinkle.
I am not saying Sprinkle is BAD—just not HOFer. Ed Henke will get in the way.
Now I have a bias, this is the position I played. I was not good, just a regular average DE, and when I tried to play college, got run off the field
because I was not good enough to make the team (and my uncle was the AD) basically I sucked– too small, too weak, too slow.
But I knew how to play the position and what I did in the 1970s early 80s was very similar to what was being done in NFL in 1950s
. And my coach would have NEVER let me play the way Sprinkle did. I’d have been benched. But, clearly Halas like what he had his weak end
doing…but the way he did it is was not hard. And they will run at you and through you if all you do is arc rush and contain.
So, in the 1940s? Honestly, would take some research and film study, Chris and TJ would know more. But starting in 1948 which is when my
interest begins—I think Willey and the others I mentioned are all on par with Sprinkle. It would depend if you caught a good game where
the opponent was throwing and how they stopped plays at them, pursuit angles if they let themselves get cut too much…all that.
—
Ken Crippen:
Neither of you are idiots. I see the same thing when I watch film of Sprinkle. HOVG, but not HOF. I do not know what these selectors are seeing when they are watching the film. We can all disagree, but this is a pretty wide disparity.
—
For me, the evidence against Sprinkle as a deserving HoFer based on film study and honors achieved is overwhelming. These guys know film study, and it’s not just one guy. It’s four: Turney, Troup, Reaser, Crippen.
From all appearances, we can thank Dan Pompei for playing Frankie Frisch here. See this post from “TanksAndSpartans” over at the same site:
I found the film they watched – just google this: “NFL Films: Ed Sprinkle-Legendary Linemen” – maybe the testimonials put him over the top :)
Another thing that search shows – sounds like Pompei is a Bears guy, right? Interesting he seems pretty happy about two of the candidates the board wasn’t happy with:
“When Don Pierson and I wrote the Chicago Bears Centennial Scrapbook, we were asked to rate the top 100 players in Bears history. We ranked Covert 13th, ahead of 14 Hall of Famers at the time. We rated Sprinkle 25th, ahead of seven Hall of Famers at the time. In retrospect, we probably had Sprinkle too low.”
More to come.
‘Played Frankie Frisch here.’
That’s a pretty good comparison, since Frisch got so ma y of his undeserving teammates into Cooperstown when he headed the Veterans Committee. Some of the worst members of the Baseball Hall of Fame got their plaques thanks to Frisch.
Some of the worst members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame got elected yesterday, and I completely agree that Joe Fortunato would’ve been leaps and bounds a better choice than Covert or Sprinkle and this is coming from a diehard Bears fan. Fortunato wouldn’t have been at the top of my list for seniors or senior linebackers, but I’d support his election if he’s ever nominated.
I want to seriously know the reason Gradishar didn’t get in yesterday, or Branch, or Wistert. Those three are criminally missing from Canton.
Great post Justin! I actually don’t mind Covert as much as Sprinkle. Good with everyone else.
“Some of the worst members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame got elected yesterday, ”
I strongly disagree, there may have been others more deserving, but there is no way anyone should characterize the BRP selections in that manner.
We will never know why Gradishar, Branch, Wistert (or Pearson) did not get in, 24 voters each get their own decisions/vote and its always subjective. As as in every year you could debate (as we have here for years) the 1-2 seniors selections made each election. I don’t agree with all the BRP selections, and in many years the selections by the senior committee, but I don’t think any of us should ever characterize any selections as the worst members of the PFHOF. Each and every one of those 15 are deserving, some more than others and yes some not elected are more deserving, but that does not mean those any of those 15 are worst members and never deserving.
Gradishar, Branch, Wistert (or Pearson) were not elected because the majority of 24 voters decided others were more deserving-its that simple. We may not agree with that result, and certainly open to debate, but please show better respect to all 15 elected who are now PFHOFers.
To be clear I understand the debates over Covert, Sprinkle and to some degree Carmichael, and I agree with the assessments that other finalists would have been better picks. I am far form happy with the BRP and frustrated over their choices, just as I often have been with the annual senior committee selections. I just find characterizing them or any other members of the new class as “worst members” inappropriate, disrespectful and unnecessary-such comment crosses the line of professionalism in my opinion.
“I just find characterizing them or any other members of the new class as “worst members” inappropriate, disrespectful and unnecessary-such comment crosses the line of professionalism in my opinion.”
Understood what’s being said, though I’m hard-pressed to see what happened on this committee as being at all “professional.” It’s strong-arming Frankie Frisch homer-ism to me. YMMV.
Well said Paul!
We might as well start talking about Seniors for next year.
Mine in this order
1. Chuck Howley
2. Cliff Branch
3. Randy Gradishar
4. L.C. Greenwood
5. Lester Hays
6. Drew Pearson
7. Eddie Meador
8. Roger Craig
9. Mike Curtis
10. Tomy Nobis
11. Joe jacoby
12. Pete Retzlaff
Hoping its two rather than one senior.
Still think Pearson can get in, but like Paul said, who knows ?
Feel free to attack the Hall, BRP and the process, leave the elected PFHOFers (and their families) out as they have been given the honor, let them enjoy it-that’s my point bachslunch.
And Brian, Clark Judge Jr suggested Hall may move forward with 5 moderns, 2 seniors and either 1 contributor/coach OR 1 coach and 1 contributor each election. Either way annual election will be 2 seniors as awareness that although 10 was major step forward, the seniors pool still has plenty of deserving candidates, perhaps starting with 10 finalists not elected in 2020.
We may not know officially until PFHOF Board meets in early August, but they will need to make new rules as centennial class was for 2020 only, and previous period of 1-2 rotation of seniors/contributors ended with 2019 election. 2021 elections and beyond will need new rules as to numbers.
still have some work to do on mine but here are my top 10 senior candidates:
1. LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
2. F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s (2020F)
3. LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7 (2020F)
4. WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s (2020F)
5. G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s (2020F)
6. WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4 (2020F)
7. OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s (2020F)
8. LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
9. CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s
10. DB Jimmy Patton NYG 5(1)/5/60s
Harold Carmichael is not as bad of a pick as others think, but is one I would not consider. My argument starts Charley Taylor, Raymond Berry and Charlie Joiner are the only players with more receptions when Harold’s career ended. The 1982 strike did hurt his stats. That strike prevented him from getting over 80 touchdown receptions in his career and 600 receptions. 80 touchdown receptions and 600 receptions were huge numbers for players that started in the first half of the 1970s. The case for Harold goes down when you deal with Cliff Branch and how the 1982 strike affected other players also. Branch in general had teammates that were major passing targets in that era and affected his stats considering how the 1970s were for passing the football.
The Raiders had Dave Casper and Fred Biletnikoff. The Raiders saw tight ends as a key to the passing game besides the Wide Receivers. All 3 had their stats affected by playing for the same team like the late 1980s and early 1990s Washington Red Skin teams did.
Jimbo Covert was the worst pick of the 10. I first watched the NFL in the 1980s in Wisconsin being a Packer Fan. The Bears had 3 pro bowl linemen in Bortz, Covert and Jay Hilgenberg. Those bear teams were run first. Walter Payton and Neal Anderson ran over 1,000 years a season under that line.The problem with Covert is his resume is not as strong I like and his teammate Jay Hilgenberg is the better candidate for the Hall of Fame.
While he was on the all decade team, there were players that had no business being on in back in the 1980s like John Anderson. People made arguments that Jackie slater or Mike Kenn should’ve been on the all decade team instead. The problem with covert is while head coaches thought highly of him, he only had 2 all pro teams and 2 pro bowls.
Bobby Dillon deserved to be inducted. His problem is he came from an era that the Packers were terrible and got overlooked. That era of the Green Bay Packers also had Billy Howton and Jim Ringo as great players. Ringo was able to play for Lombardi and win championships later on, but Howton and Dillon did not.
Cliff Harris is long overdue. The problem is Cliff retired when he was 31 years old and I think that hurt him in the voters eyes besides only having 29 interceptions along playing the safety position. Players playing the safety position tend to be overlooked by voters.
Winston Hill to me was a good pick. He was great in weather it was the NFL or the AFL. I don’t understand why he was in sooner outside of voters were being bias against the AFL.
As far as I’m concerned, there’s nothing to celebrate from this unfair and disgusting fiasco. Nothing whatsoever.
Interestingly enough, I was seriously considering making a trip to the HoF later this year as part of a jaunt to Cleveland. I’ve never been there before. At this point, however, I wouldn’t walk across the street to see the place for free — much less make a day trip bus ride pilgrimage to Canton to do so.
Life is far too rich and too short to waste time giving a fat damn about something that provides no joy. At this point in time, I feel the need to focus on the many other things in life that make living fun and worthwhile: art, music, literature, movies, travel, food, family, friends, writing.
Much as I’ve loved baseball and football, I’m currently feeling the wish to cut them both out of my life for good. And that goes double for their Halls of Shame.
Best wishes, all.
Alex Karras is not the worst pick out there. Everyone knew why it took so long for him to get inducted in terms of his gambling. To top it off, Detroit had other defensive players in the Hall of Fame from that era.
Donnie Shell was a great pick, but I wonder if this hurt L.C. Greenwood and Andy Russell. While Andy already was making pro bowls the Chuck Knoll era Steelers were drafted or signed from agency, he was known as the players from the steel certain. The question is how many more players from the steel Certain defense can you induct into the Hall of Fame. Donnie Shell was a great safety and the safeties inducted actually helps out Eddie Meador, Deron Cherry, Jimmy Patton, and Joey Browner.
Duke Slater is player I do not know much about except for being a first team all pro 5 times and a 2nd team all pro 2 times. That information told me he was long forgotten besides given compliments by George Halas and Ernie Nevers. The problem was he’s like all the early NFL players in terms of Technology did not exist for creating video of 1920s football.
Mac Speedie is a great pick. He’s touchdowns are low, but there is some stuff that needs to be looked at. 1940s/1950s Football from a passing standpoint is not as advanced as it was by the 1980s and 1990s. To top it off, Mac’s teammate was Hall of Famer Dante Levelli. I read that Paul brown had a grudge against him and its possible he had a say that Mac should not be inducted into the Hall of fame.
Mac’s 349 receptions seem low at place, but actually were not considering the short amount of time. If Mac played in the NFL instead of Canada from 1953 to 1955, he would have been in sooner. Mac in those additional seasons would put him in the Tom Fears and Elroy Hirsch range of stats. To top it off, he was one of the players affected by World War 2.
I can’t commit much about Ed Sprinkle. He was way before my time and is another defensive player that played before sacks were recorded.
You really can not tell much about the NFL without Steve Sabol. He was an important port of NFL films and NFL Films was big when I growing up.
George Young is a no brainer for the Hall of Fame as a GM.
Paul Tagliabue is someone I wished was not inducted at all although he was better than Roger Goodell. Roger is spreading the NFL too thin. Roger wanting a 17th regular season plus still having 4 preseason games will not be helping matters with the Super Bowl being even later in February.
Paul was responsible for expansion of NFL teams with great growth, but there a lot of problems under him. The NFL under him screwed retired retired NFL players from getting disability money including Johnny Unitas and Mike Webster according sports illustrated. The fact is him and Gene Upshaw screwed over retired players for years including pensions. There was talk about the NFL known about concussions and covered it up under Paul’s reign.
I have mixed feeling on Bill Cowher. Bill’s still in not innovative at all. He was very similar to the Chicago Bears of the 1980s with a strong defense and running game. He was a great coach considering the success he had despite what free agency did. He was a John Madden and Andy Reid type in terms of being in a lot of conference final games, but lot a lot of those. Bill’s problem to me was who he had for Quarterbacks. If he coached longer, he would’ve had way over 200 wins by now.
Jimmy Johnson was a very good selection. Everyone knew it was Jimmy that was responsible for the 1990’s Cowboys Super bowl success. He was a very good gm type besides being a head coach
Bachs, I still believe you should visit the PFHOF.
Its a worthwhile experience, besides, some of your favorites got elected, so like Justin said, you got to look at the glass being half full.
Remember, the HOF added a special 15 member class and its still alot better than the snails pace logjam that has only one or two seniors getting in every year and clearing some of these guys, will help others later.
Wow, a few comments since I was last here a couple days. Lol! Good stuff and it seems like most of us lean the same disappointed direction especially Bachs. I know it’s really tough to think this was the last best chance to get some great old-times in and this knucklehead panel blew it. :( I agree with Corey about the watering down after these picks. A positive is, I think Carmichael getting in is good news for Drew Pearson.
I also understand where you’re coming from Paul but I don’t think the criticism shows a lack of respect. I think anyone who follows this site knows the commenters here are really passionate about who gets into the Hall of Fame and some are highly knowledgeable. There’s a time to talk about it and not to. Now’s the time to get it all out!! lol
But you won’t hear me bring up other mistakes from the past like a certain RB. hehe I think we made a truce on that didn’t we Paul ? lol Besides I don’t need to use names anymore cause y’all know. :)
‘
Remember Bachs, we got Johnny Robinson in this year that was really positive and we can hope someone really deserving Senior player makes it in this year. We have to forget about this knucklehead panel. :)
I have to disagree with Paul on what is disrespectful.
Disrespectful would be if I attacked any of the Hall of Famers personally or wished ill on them. That isn’t the case.
What I am going after, however, is their selections. Some people simply do not deserve a gold jacket in my eyes. Some people erroneously have a bust in Canton – Namath, Swann, Dave Robinson, Ken Stabler. You can add Harold Carmichael and Jim Covert to that list. I’m not crazy about Ed Sprinkle or Alex Karras either.
There are some people in the Pro Football Hall of Fame whom I don’t think should be in there. That’s nothing against them personally. I don’t think Drew Pearson should be in, but I still felt bad for the man after he didn’t make it.
Would be cool to see Zack Thomas go in the Hall with HC Jimmy Johnson.
If Polamalu was somehow not voted in first ballot, dont be surprised if Butler jumps ahead of Atwater.
Seymour or Bryant would be good interior linemen choices for a position that still needs more representation along with nose tackles.
Hopefully Smerlas, Thomas, Krumrie, Williams, Washington and Wilfork will join future discussions of nose tackles getting a chance like Curley Culp.
I think it helps to pause and consider why we are all here and the impact it has. After 20 years following the Hall elections, and at least a decade on social media including on this blog, for me it as been fantastic opportunity to learn more from others, express my own views and opinions and participate in healthy debates within a great passionate and informed community. And the passion and knowledge expressed by so many here, especially those who have submitted detailed posts and have done so for years, is very impressive. Each election cycle we spend months discussing and debating the candidates and predicting the outcomes and advocating for those we so strongly support. But here it is, that is all this really is, just a bunch of great people having a debate. We can’t get into the minds or truly predict how 48 voters (or in the case of the BRP panel 25 voters) are going to make their individual decisions and the collective results. And the reality is that we can’t get anyone elected, we didn’t get Johnny Robinson or Jerry Kramer elected, and there is no evidence that we have any influence on the voters or the outcomes.
We have these great interests, passion and knowledge, so its understandable we have strong responses to the elections and so often disappointed, angered or frustrated by the decisions voters have made. And I have no doubt that anyone of the regulars here could serve with respect and honor as a member of the selective committee or BRB, I sincerely mean that, but we aren’t members. Its important to keep in perspective who we are and our activities here. Just look at the Talk of Fame blog that I know many of us are also on, again another group of really informed passionate folks, and they collectively created a fantastic list of whom they would select for the centennial class, but ended up with as many misses as we did here. At the end of the day we all have opinions and expertise, but the Hall voting is subjective, and the selection committee and BRP also have their opinions and expertise, we can certainly disagree and debate but after the election has passed and our emotions calm down we can get back to realization that we are just a bunch of great folks having some fun and time talking about PFHOFers, and talking is all it really is. I respect those who decide this is no longer a place for them, as I do those that will continue to participate. Thanks
Great call Paul…
Talking or opinions or not, I believe a lot of you guys DO have an influence on sites like this one, Talkoffame/Maven, Pro Football Journal, the PFHOF site, that does collect our votes, whether theyre tallied or not, and other sites I still need to find out about, and I have read a few times, especially in regards to Ron, Rick and Clark at TOF, that they found out about deserving players like Billy Howton, Ken Kavanaugh and others through passionate commentators like yourselves/ourselves.
We just have to keep voting online or visiting the Hall itself and keep our voices heard, because I have seen how appreciative alot of players family members are, on these sites.
Must admit when I heard Harold Carmichael as one of the first names to be announced I was both surprised and knew it probably wasn’t going to be good news for Branch and Pearson.
On further reflection, Carmichael is certainly a worthy HOFer. His career counting stats for receptions, receiving yards and rec TDs are ahead of both Branch and Pearson. If you include Harold Jackson as a quartet from the same era who all finished their careers around 1983/84, Jackson is first for receiving yards, with Carmichael ranked tops in the other three categories.
An earlier comment mentioned the 1982 strike costing Carmichael significant milestones of 600-9,000-80 which for that era was excellent. Pro Bowl selections are also all very similar between the four.
Carmichael and Jackson had three 1,000 yard seasons, Branch two, Pearson one. Pearson and Carmichael have the All Decade accolade. For postseason success it’s Branch and Pearson.
Really, it came down to the eye of the beholder between the three candidates. I think there’ll be a big push now to get Pearson and Branch selected by the Seniors committee when they start to look at WRs again.
Shofner, Howton, Jackson and perhaps S.Sharpe would be next. On the offensive side of the ball there should certainly be a focus on clearing backlogs at WR and OL, which pretty much currently reflects the modern era path as well.
Carmichael had 11 more catches than Jackson did and three touchdown receptions than Jackson did. In my opinion, that not nearly sufficient enough for me to declare that Carmichael was a better receiver than Jackson. No baseball historian I know of declares that Hank Aaron was better than Babe Ruth, let alone the logic that Aaron has the most RBIs in history and has 755 to Ruth’s 714.
Don’t just look at career touchdowns, yards and receptions. If you’re going to say Jackson has more yards while Carmichael has more receptions and touchdowns by a small margin, I will point to you that Jackson made more Pro Bowls than Carmichael, five to four (more is more, right?) Plus Jackson was a First Team All Pro once in his career. Carmichael never was.
Jackson also led an entire decade in all three receptions, yards and touchdowns. Somehow Carmichael was on the 1970s All Decade Team and Jackson wasn’t. I know I’ve emphasized this point ad nauseum on here, but the quantity of times I’ve done so never negates the validity of it.
The case I would make for Branch over Carmichael is he made just as many Pro Bowls, had three times as many First Team All-Pro selections, led the league in receiving yards as many times as Carmichael and touchdowns twice as much as Carmichael. I have reason to believe Branch was more worthy of being All Decade than Carmichael was, too.
Throw in Shofner and Howton, two of the biggest injustices around, in addition to Jackson and Branch, and there is no way I could advocate for Carmichael.
A case could be made that the late Billy Wilson would’ve been as better choice than Carmichael was.
I’m going to grade each of these 10 new Hall of Famers in order, from best to least. I’ll give a grade and my thoughts.
1. Bobby Dillon
Grade: A+
One of the best seniors not in Canton, the unfortunate thing is he isn’t around to enjoy it. The man grabbed 52 interceptions, made four Pro Bowls, four First Team All Pros, arguably All Decade worthy. Imagine somebody in the NFL playing blind in one eye today, let alone accomplishing all of that. It took way too long. He should’ve been here on Earth when elected.
#2 Mac Speedie
Grade: A+
Upon doing further research on Speedie, I have to believe this was one of the best selections out there. Four times he led the league in receptions, twice in yards, three time First Team All Pro, all while having a Hall of Fame teammate at the same position. His career was brief, but so, so good.
#3 Cliff Harris
Grade: A
It’s a low interception count, but six Pro Bowls, three First Team All Pro selections, a deserving All Decade selection and a deserving Canton selection.,
#4 Winston Hill
Grade: A
I can’t say he was at the top of my list for best offensive lineman in the senior pool, but eight AFL All Stars and/or Pro Bowls does it for me.
#5 Duke Slater
Grade: B+
It’s hard for me to evaluate Slater, but him being among the top of the list of Pre-World War II candidates in these communities has me trusting that he’s a worthy selection.
#6 Donnie Shell
Grade: B
I can’t say he was at the top of my list for best seniors, or even best senior safeties, but his 3/5 profile and 51 interceptions make this a selection I can live with.
This where I draw the line of seniors whose selections I could ge behind.
#7 Alex Karras
Grade: C-
I see a Hall of Very Good, not a Hall of Fame resume. Nothing I see wows me to push him to the top of the list of seniors both nominated and nominated.
#8 Ed Sprinkle
Grade: D
I can’t say I see it. Some people can be exceptional in a short career. Sprinkle was good, but not exceptional. I seriously never thought about or saw him as a Hall of Famer. Four Pro Bowls alone isn’t enough for me to say he should be in.
#9 Harold Carmichael
Grade: F
See above.
#10 Jim Covert
Grade: F
I can’t say he was the best offensive lineman in the senior pool. I’m not sure he was Top 10. I’m not sure if he was the best in the senior pool from his era. I’m not a big Jacoby fan, but I’d put him in before Covert. Two Pro Bowls and two First Team All Pro, basically two seasons, does not a Hall of Famer make.
They could’ve Walt Sweeney, George Kunz, Bob Talamini, Ed Budde, Dick Schafrath, John Niland, Ox Emerson, Duane Putnam, Bob Kuechenberg, Grady Alderman, Len Hauss, teammate Jay Hilgenberg, Ken Gray, Jim Ray Smith, arguably Bob Demarco or arguably Ralph Neely.
That’s 16 offensive linemen that I just can know, can think of, that have equal or more impressive profiles that would’ve made a better choice than Jim Covert was. The Covert selection was Dave Robinson levels of bad.
“We just have to keep voting online ”
“Talkoffame/Maven, Pro Football Journal, the PFHOF site, that does collect our votes, ”
Not sure what “voting” you are referring to, but having had conversations with PFHOF voters over the years, as much they be aware of us and our views/votes, it really doesn’t inform or influence their decisions. Sorry but thats true.
And folks like Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge Jr and many of the voters (especially those with long terms of involvement) are quite aware of the deserving candidates, their qualifications and debates over their worthiness as potential PFHOFers. Our insights well perhaps informative and insightful, really aren’t new to them. I am sure they are aware of us, follow debates, have engaged with many of us,and appreciate our passion and opinions but we really are not having any significant influence on the process or the outcomes.
Yes our votes to the PFHOF, whether online, mailed in or done at the location itself may not count, but I believe they are being heard, and can be influential if fans keep doing it enough. Many new, young fans have learned alot about players and history through these sites and even Clark Judge admitted that comments from Bachslunch and Rasputin got him to do more research on a great player like Billy Howton, so I am sure some persuasive arguments stay in the backs of some voters minds, even Rick Gosselin…haha
Gosselin said they can nominate two seniors going forward. I’m going to guess this means now we’re back to two per year?
He said the logjam will never be cleared. This may be true, but how do you miss your chance to do something about the logjam while passing over some of the most deserving seniors for some people who don’t even belong?
It’d be one thing if they did what they did when they nominated a deserving Brazil’s over Howley, Baughan and Gradishar. It’d be one thing if they gave us Branch since Howton, Shofner and Jackson weren’t nominated, but they gave us Carmichael.
Until the Hall Board officially approves the new election rules we don’t really know but sounds like going back to 2 seniors a year is likely and is a good move
Well 8 out of 10 BRP clears the backlog of 8???
Moving back to two is needed and if it does end up being two, just give us two seniors who deserve it. If I can’t have my two top seniors of Chuck Howley and Maxie Baughan, I hope they give us somebody I can get behind, that hopefully all of us can get behind.
Most of us are behind Pearson and Howley but Wistert, Branch and Gradishar could have a chance next year as well.
Agree Corey, Brian
What do you guys think of the Pro Reference HOF Monitor ?
Interesting , though subjective lists by position, but controversial as well. They had Mike Singletary rated ahead of Butkus and Lanier, which I wouldnt agree with.
They had Devin Hester at Wide Receiver and his what, 15 TDs rated ahead of Issac Curtis and Dwight Clark for crying out loud ?
The HOF monitor uses AV, Pro Bowls, All-Pros, championships, and various stat milestones.
The monitor is not really saying Singletsry was a better LB than Butkus. I think the way it is tallied will always favour those with much longer careers, rather than the short career high peak of Butkus and Sayers.
Burkus achieved the fourth highest score among ILB despite only playing 7 seasons.
**
The base formula uses weighted Approximate Value (which is 100% of the player’s peak year, 95% of their second-best year, 90% of their third-best, and so on) as a starting point. Bonuses are added for Pro Football Hall of Fame All-Decade selections, MVP awards, Defensive Player of the Year awards, first-team AP All-Pro selections, championships and Pro Bowls, in descending weights. In addition, bonuses are added if a player has earned first-team All-Pro in over 33% of their seasons, which helps out short but excellent careers like Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis. For players not yet inducted, small bonuses are also added for semifinalist and finalist appearances on previous HOF ballots, since that indicates that they’ve already been seriously considered.
The key to all these rating systems is the weighting they choose to use and that’s totally subjective. Change the weights, you change the ratings and outcome. They have value but plenty of subjectivity built in.
Kind of like the line, Jets coach Walt Michaels used to tell his players, “Statistics are like loose women, you can use them any way you want to “…
Haha
With the Centennial Class, here are the updated totals for the franchises who have interested their number of primary PFHOFers (official Hall website has not yet added the members of the class or their bios to their various lists, but I updated these counts);
Bears 30
Packers 26
Steelers 23
Giants 21
Cowboys 20
Browns 17
Lions 16
Cardinals 14
Eagles 11
Jets 7
“Increases their”
Still predicting the Chiefs win it all, which I stated on this site back in Dec.
Rooting for the Titans however.
If both games are upsets, which could happen, the Networks may give it to Rodgers and GB over the Titans in the SB, because they love veteran QBs.
I HOPE I AM WRONG
When was the last time both conference championships were upsets?
Actually, last year according to Vegas…
Chiefs were 3pt favorites over NE, despite the Patriots experience.
Saints were 3pt favorites over Rams, and could have won it in overttime.
Despite playing at home, Phillys win over Vikings in 18 was considered an “upset” as well.
According to Vegas, Chiefs were favored to win it all late last year, then this year, after the Ravens were beaten and now next year as well.
A lot of pressure on Reid and Mahomes but I think they will get it done this year. If not, Reid may only get another year, but who knows ?
Not counting the AAFC or AFL, since 1940, only nine QBs have ever won 3 or more World/SB Championships.
Only 12 have won it two times and Rodgers could be the 13th. Its time for him to get it done, because some people already think he is the best of all time.
Despite Bradys obvious success, I still think its Montana
Who would think Rodgers is the best of all time? Super Bowl era alone not in my top 5.
Only Packers fans would
Chiefs in SB for first time in 50yrs, 1969 during NFL 50th season (although AFL and Chiefs didn’t merge with NFL until 1970)
Andy Reid gets another chance. To much speed for the Titans.
Andy Reid goes to Canton if it’s a win.
Do the voters make Lynch an inductee since his team is going?
Finally…young QBs in the SB.
Since when, Kaepernick/Flacco in 2013 ?
AFC won that game as well.
Could you imagine if the Ravens had mad it? The game would have probably been over in 2.5 hours. the way both teams rune the ball and throw to the middle of the field. 49ers have a great defense but hard to go against Mahomes. Could end up looking back on this Super Bowl as having a number of HOFamers.
Considering his career has so far been a bust, Watkins can certainly change it around with a good performance and a win in the SB. Yesterday was his best game to date, but I think Richard Sherman will be on him for the Super Bowl.
Despite being in Andy Reids doghouse, will LeSean McCoy play in the SB ?
A Championship always helps a player get in the HOF, these are players who can benefit with a win…
Reid, as a winning coach
Kelce, with a career much like Tony Gonzalez
McCoy, who may or may not play
Mahomes, who many compare to Marino but has to continue to stay healthy
Hill, if he can keep playing well and staying out of trouble.
Suggs, who can get a second championship
Sherman, who can win his second championship
Garrapolo, a young QB like Mahomes but sky is the limit.
Kittle, like Kelce, off to a great career if he can stay healthy.
Great start for rookies Bosa and Greenlaw but they have a long way to go.
Like the 16/17 and 17/18 SBs, I anticipate a shootout.
I think Sherman and Kelce have the best Canton cases at the moment, Suggs too. Sherman is 3/5, likely All Decade, plus probably the best player on a historically great Super Bowl winning defense.
Kelce is 2/5, another possible All Decade player on the second team after Gronkowski and the first tight end with four consecutive seasons of 1,000 yards.
Suggs is 1/7 and Defensive Player of the Year.
Andy Reid would forever be cemented a Hall of Famer with a win. That’s all he’s missing.
Looking forward to the Super Bowl. Would love to see Lamar Hunt’s family hold up the Lombardi trophy after already wining the one named after Lamar…
I debated somebody on the Sherman/Revis controversy. He’s convinced Sherman is a Hall of Famer, while Revis isn’t, doesn’t see it, but could see Revis maybe being elected as a senior.
I think Sherman is a HOFer already but Revis should be first ballot in 2023 with Joe Thomas. He was the best shutdown CB since Deion.
BTW Has anyone heard when the All Decade team is announced?
Peterson will give Revis a run for 1st team all decade, the 2010s team should be announced later this week or next. And I am not so Revis is first ballot PFHOFer as his peak seems short as was his career
Pat Mahomes is the best ever!! lol A few weeks ago it was Lamar Jackson. We’ve all seen a whole lot of great QB’s. :) I will say Mahomes could be the best QB coming out of the box with Marino a close second.
I’m rooting for the Chiefs to win and really really hope Mahomes’ career doesn’t follow Marino’s never making it back to a SB. Ironic they are facing the 49ers. lol I see the 49ers as the favored. I think the Chiefs will need close to 40 pts to win.
Andy Reid is already a HOFer IMO but a SB win would usher him in a little bit quicker.
I’m on the fence with Richard Sherman and think he should wait a good while. His PFR AV isn’t great at he moment. He was close to top CB for about three years. Played for one of the best D’s in history. Darrell Revis and Patrick Peterson were better. Bobby Wagner, Earl Thomas and Russell Wilson should get into HOF first.
I always remember Harold Carmichael’s claim to fame was his consecutive game’s with a catch that was something like 137 games. Every game announcers would talk about as it increased. The dude was a huge target at 6’9″ with an awesome wingspan!! Now they say 6’8″ lol Everyone else looked like shrimps. lol Caught a lot of 10 to 15 yard passes along the sidelines as I recall. I don’t remember him being too elusive. Seemed like a basketball player playing football. He was very durable a steady Eddie. A very good player but not someone I see as a HOFer but I figured where he played he would get in one day. Do we think Sal Paolantonio may of had some influence?? lol
Sal Pal and maybe, Jarrett Bell for Carmichael.
Though the other Harold (Jackson) put the fear of God into defences, Carmichael was an excellent possession receiver who used his height and arms well in the endzone. With him, Branch and Pearson playing before the 78 Blount Rule went into affect, they were getting hit all the time before catching passes, especially Carmichael, who had to take on “roll” blocks or hits low, from small cornerbacks like Pat Fischer. His durability, is why he made the Hall.
When TE Charle Young was with Philly, he was actually the better athlete and the go to receiver over Carmichael, but Vermeil traded him to the Rams for Jaworski. Just think, it was former Rams QBs like Gabriel and Jaws, that helped Carmichaels career.
Sherman will be in the HOF. He is hardly ever challenged by QBs, and doesnt give up much yardage, when he is challenged.
I believe if Sanders is first ballot, so will Revis, though its a close call. He wasnt a dominant corner after leaving NE, but a SB helps his case. Like Sanders the ultimate free agent for hire, player.
The player to watch out for this SB is Hardman for KC. A clone of Tyreek Hill, he could be MVP because he could take it to the house as a kick returner or receiver. With Sherman on Watson and safeties watching Hill and Kelce, Hardman could have a breakout game. The Niners will have to spy on Mahomes and keep him in the pocket, which is dangerous too.
“I believe if Sanders is first ballot, so will Revis, ”
hmmmmm……
Sanders 9/8/2xSb/DPOY/all decade/100th anniversary team
Revis 4/7/SB/all decade?
Not seeing the comparison as first ballot PFHOFers
“Pat Mahomes is the best ever!! lol A few weeks ago it was Lamar Jackson.”
and get back to me in 2030……
Sorry Paul, not as enamored with Sanders as you are.
Im interested in the fate of sam mills considering he has i believe until 2022 what do you guys think happens with him and also zach thomas
That’s fine but it’s still a bad comparison with Revis regardless if you feel Deion is overrated, as uncommon view that may be
Just poking fun Paul, I know how good Sanders was.
no problem, and actually I think to some degree Deion is overrated, and probably gets more attention as one of the greatest players of all time than is warranted, so I see where you are coming from, but wow 9xAll Pro at CB is pretty impressive.
I don’t know who Sanders gets compared to. lol I do get the lofty value of Revis’ cover ability being compared to Sanders. Actually I think Rod Woodson 6/11 is the closest to being the player Sanders was. All things considered maybe equal???
Patrick Peterson’s 3/8 greatness gets lost like Aenas Williams’ 3/8 did playing for the Arizona Cardinals. Peterson should be a HOFer along with Williams. It will help if the Cardinals can win with their new QB whose name slips me. I’m getting old! lol
I’m also thinking Ken Houston 2/12, Mike Haynes 2/9 and Champ Bailey 3/12 were in the same WR covering zip code as the rest of the above.
Yes, Brian I remember Harold Jackson well. Past time he is put in the HOF. Do you remember the game he caught 4 TD passes from John Hadl playing against the Dallas Cowboys? Bombs away, poor Charlie Waters didn’t stand a chance. If they can put Charlie Joiner 1/3 and Harold Carmichael 0/4 in the HOF they better put Jackson in too and than Cliff Branch.
Drew Pearson is a tough HOF call for me. I’m about 50/50. I got his recent disappointment but I didn’t like his comments of what sounded like HOF entitlement that he made. Everyone has opinions and I heard Jason Whitlock say he knew he’d be unpopular but he thought neither Carmichael or Pearson were HOFers. I just wonder if people don’t see Pearson’s WR teammate Tony Hill and their nearly identical stats and it doesn’t cause them to pause. I thought Hill became a better WR than Pearson much in the way I view Swann and Stallworth. I remember how supportive Swann was of Stallworth. Do we think Pearson feels any of that towards Hill? Might it be the case you have borderline HOF WR’s with nearly identical records ex. Duper and Clayton and it’s easier not to select either one? I’d put both my guys in but I’m bias but only a big winning Team like the Steelers get that luxury..
Look, I know how good Sanders was.
I think Rod Woodson was better overrall.
Sanders was a truly great player, but like Owens, he could be polarizing.
He could help and hurt a team all at once.
Despite being Atlanta’s best player, his absence playing baseball, helped keep them from making the playoffs, then he bolts understandably, when free agency hits.
I may be wrong, but after the Cowboys two consecutive championships, the League was DETERMINED to not allow a three peat, and turned the other way, while allowing the 49ers to obtain an All Star team on defence, which couldnt have been cheap. Who better to bring in than Deion Sanders to help stop the Cowboys ?
Deion had his best season as a pro, won the SB, then bolted…
To help Dallas, where his tackling and inside coverage deficiencies were finally exposed, which changed how their defence was deployed, but Woodson and their fast linebackers made up for it.
The Cowboys had a great season and won it all again because Sanders adjusted to his teammates well, and continued to shut down opposing receivers.
However, from 96 onward, the team regressed, because with Sanders high salary and free agency, the Cowboys lost their great team depth that Johnson had built. The team couldnt win anymore.
Even the triplets in Irvin, Smith and Aikman were frustrated. The fear and accountability that Johnson demanded was gone and Sanders great ability couldnt change it.
Sanders didnt care anymore in Washington, similar to Revis, in his second stint with the Jets.
Sanders played up to his capabilities in Baltimore, however.
Revis’s career was very similiar, without Sanders, All Pro accolades. Had he stayed his entire career with the Jets he would have been the best all time CB, but like Deion, he wanted to get paid more than staying with any team.
Thats the thing TonyP …
Tony Hill did become an excellent receiver, benefitting from Pearson on the other side, but Pearson was Staubach’s go to man, While Danny White went to Hill more. Butch Johnsons emergence, took catches from Pearson as well, but he didnt have Drew’s hands or clutch ability.
Drew is frustrated, but I think he will get in next year.
“Sherman is 3/5, likely All Decade, plus probably the best player on a historically great Super Bowl winning defense”
Just my two cents. Sherman had the biggest mouth on that Team’s Defense but not the best player on the SB teams. Cam Chancelor was the leader and engine to their success on the field with his aggression. Sherman was one of the best cover CB’s at the time but Earl Thomas was playing at an all-time best at the Free Safety position. He made 105 tackles with 5 int’s the year they one the SB. He was a human missile! Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu never did 100. And Bobby Wagner was a tackling machine and is on track to have the best career of all them.
Revis, Patterson and Sherman all made the 2010s All-Decade Team which I don’t understand. Sherman and Patterson made it as CB and they created Defensive Back slot for CB Revis. Guess the didn’t want to leave one out.
Thanks for refreshing my memory. I would compare Pearson’s clutchness to Hines Ward. Made a ton of third down conversions. I actually thought Butch Johnson was more in the offense too but he really had very little role but everyone one remembers his SB catch. I liked that Golden boy whose name slips .Richard kid.
Best Corners Coverage Only
Haynes
Johnson
Sanders/Revis tie
Brown
Best Corners Overrall
Lane
Adderley
R Woodson
Haynes
Brown/Blount
“ Revis, Patterson and Sherman all made the 2010s All-Decade Team which I don’t understand.”
Official 2010s All Decade team has not yet been announced
Everybody and their brother can name an all decade team, CBS Sports, ESPN, SI, NFL.com, etc…. but the only official all decade team is result of votes by the PFHOF selection committee and although not yet announced, the results should come out by end of next week
I’d second that paul
Thanks Paul I didn’t realize I was looking at unofficial All-Decade. It was NFL.com.
Who do you guys pick for top two CB’s of 2010 Decade? Peterson and Sherman? Eric Berry and Earl Thomas were their Safties.
The Committee dished out one of the greatest shaft job to Safety Jake Scott 2/5 two SB’s wins with MVP by by not even giving 2nd Team putting Larry Wilson on two All-Decade Teams. Revis didn’t make 2000’s Team at all. Looking at past history they should put Revis and Peterson as 1st Team and Sherman on 2nd Team.
Maybe we should give more credit to NFL’s choices now that we see some of HOF Committee’s picks. lol
Will need research differences in past decades. Do we automatically assume because it came from the HOF it is the most relevant for all time? Maybe NFL.com does it better.
I’d have to agree Tony p. Wilson played only 3 years 70-72 while scott played most of the decade.
Revis was middle decade 05 – 15
Turney at PFJ does a great job with picking mid decade players
NFL doesn’t select official awards or All Pro, all decade etc…, that was one writer on NFL.com, not an official NFL all decade team, just one guy’s opinion, just like they have writers picking their own all pros, MVPs, OPOY/DPOY, ROY etc….. just a guy with a personal opinion, certainly not “official” from NFL. At least with AP and PFHOF you have 40-50 voters selecting awards, teams etc….. We may not agree with those outcomes but at least they are not one guy expressing their “expert” choices.
I won’t give one writer on NFL.com any expertise or authority to their choices nor would I for a writer from CBS Sports, ESPN, SI or others…… Its like the NFL Network commentators or “expert panel” picking their PFHOFers-usually a real mix of choices and some pretty bad ones, talk about your bias, favoritism or my favorite picking a player because “I played with him or against him” aka only players during my career should be in the Hall or “I don’t know any history or players before my time” line of thinking.
” Looking at past history they should put Revis and Peterson as 1st Team and Sherman on 2nd Team. ”
I won’t look to any past history as number and specific members voting in 1969, much different then 1979 and also for 1989, 1999, 2009
So at some positions, fully expect split voting and some odd outcomes with 48 voters.
Good points Paul. Will be interesting who the CB’s on the 2010’s All Decade Team are after twitter comment by Revis about Sherman being protected by his Team because he can’t cover anymore. lol Sherman made PB this year. Hmm, I don’t Sherman will win many races with WR’s anymore. I guess he’s been impressive enough though. Someone is going to get a leg up on the trash talk.
CB Peterson also in mix
I was wrong Paul.
Relooking at Revis’s career, though outstanding, he may not be deserving of 1st ballot status.
I had forgotten about his injury that sidelined him in 2012, then got traded to Tampa, where he was good, but not like his prime from 2008-2011. He was All Pro like you said four times, but I also feel he should have been nominated in 2008 as well.
He was okay in 2015 with the Jets, but slipped badly in 2016 and 2017.
So basically, five great years, including a SB. A good rookie season along with his season with the Bucs and another good season going back to the Jets, but wasnt the same player.
Like you said, Hall worthy but probably not first ballot, despite great ability.
one thing i am wondering about is who will have the shortest discussion and who will have the longest?
I would guess TroyP and Boselli respectively
I would not be surprised if the John Lynch had the longest discussion this year. I feel Like Bosellis is a definte this year.
Y’all know I’m not a big Boselli supporter but if they can put in Jimbo Covert I’ve got no argument against Boselli. Incredible they leave Bob Kuechenberg out of the HOF. Greatest winner along with Tom Brady and a beast at only 253 lbs. Different position but his toughness and physical stature reminds me of Mike Webster.
You bring up a very valid point about covert and boselli if coverts is boselli should def be in terms of kuechenberg hes one of my top o line snubs
I feel either Lynch or Faneca will be the longest discussion. Though both are deserving, this could be a black and gold celebration for Pitt fans and as far as Lynch is concerned, he could join Kuechenberg with the most nominations without getting elected, which has to be on voters minds.
Debating Atwater and Lynch is not new to the voters, as they have been on same ballot last two years. But perhaps the order has already been sorted as although Lynch appears on ballot for 7th time this year (3rd time for Atwater), voters may have made their preference clear last year when it was Atwater who made final 10 while Lynch did not. Frankly for me, after TroyP, I see Atwater as the next most likely elected this year. I would also suggest Fanaca who may be more deserving then any other returning finalist (on ballot 5X, made final 10 last two years) but I fear he may fall to the “too many Steelers in this class of 20 thinking”-which is stupid but unfortunately a real possibility. If you want to look at debates the OL is the place to be with 3 OL in final 10 last two years, and deciding between Boselli and Hutchison should be a continued struggle this election. If the ‘too many Steelers” thought persists, very possible both Boselli and Hutchison get in as after no OL last year, and all the safeties in this class (and all the DBs last year), two OL getting in this year is a likely result in my view.
Can please can someone explain to me my voters would need more time to debate a 6(2)/9/SB/1st team all decade player……..Faneca.
Only thing I can think of is sorting out the 3 OL, but 4 years as finalists, last 2 in final 10, why would there need to continue to be need for more debate on him????? I don’t get it.
100% correct paul. I think the longest debates will be on lynch boselli Atwater butler
Thats the point. He should have already been voted in. Now they just have to decide if BOTH Steelers are making it, and dont believe so.
Everyone knows Faneca should be in, but Pro Football Journal thought he was also overrated, which is interesting, because of his accolades.
i find that very baffling to brian he was prob the best for over a decade
Re Faneca, there is absolutely no mystery as to why he is still on the ballot. No one says he isn’t HOF worthy. But being HOF worthy is not enough to get in the HOF. Otherwise, there would never be any repeat finalists. Most years, there are between 12-15 HOFers in the 15 finalists. I have a chart that tracks all of this, but if a player makes the finalists list more than once, his chances of making the HOF is greater than 90%. Yes, there are exceptions. The following is a complete list of players who have been finalists (including for the centennial class) more than twice and are not among this year’s 15 modern finalists:
Kuechenberg 8
Conerly 7
Coryell 6
Greenwood 6
Hayes 4
Jacoby 3
Gradishar 3
That’s it. Pretty short list. Faneca will make the HOF (as will most of the names listed above). All but Conerly are clearly worthy in my opinion. But with only 5 modern guys getting inducted in a year, it is tough. In short, for Faneca to already be in the HOF, one of the following has to be removed: Favre, Greene, Harrison, Pace, Dungy, Tomlinson, Warner, Davis, Andersen, Taylor, Moss, Owens, Urlacher, Lewis, Dawkins, Bailey, Gonzalez, Law, Mawae, or Reed.
Not easy. Maybe you argue Greene, but he had already been a 5x finalist and was it really necessary Faneca be a 1st ballot guy. Maybe you think Taylor should have waited a year or two (I do), but would Faneca have been the next guy you put in? Not for me. It would have been Dawkins. I’m just saying that it isn’t a travesty that a guy has to wait. Especially a guard (unfortunately). I ranted and raved every year when Monk was passed over. Why couldn’t my childhood hero make the HOF? But, in the end, when it was his time, he got to go in with Darrell Green and receive the greatest standing ovation in football history. I’m not sure that would have happened without the years of disappointment for us Redskins fans.
Faneca will make it. Probably not this year. I think Hutchinson probably has a leg up. He was just as good (if not better) and Steelers fatigue will likely play a roll. But it isn’t outrageous that Faneca will wait another year. There have been a number of 6x finalists — including Monk. They still call them HOFers, except Kuechenberg, Conerly, Coryell, Greenwood, and Lynch.
Finally, Faneca was definitely NOT the unquestioned “best for over a decade.” Remember, his career significantly overlapped Larry Allen, Will Shields, and even Randall McDaniel for a few years. His career almost coincided with Steve Hutchinson. Faneca was very, very good. But, I’d rank Allen and McDaniel as clearly better. And Hutchinson as equal or slightly better.
in what way shape or form was hutchinson better than faneca
When you look at the modern era finalists from 2005-15, and look strictly at just players, (excludes Modell, Coryell), the only names who are still waiting to hear their name called are:
Greenwood
Gradishar
Kuechenberg
Craig
Lynch
The top 4 are now in the Seniors pool. Lynch is the only one who is still part of the modern group. If you extend to 2016, two more names appear; Jacoby (now a senior) and Faneca (2016 was his first year as a finalist).
Speaking of your list Justin …
If Warner can get in, why not Conerly ?
Both won a championship, and both lost two championship games/SBs.
Its obvious Warner got in as a winner and I can accept that, but so was Conerly …
Both were MVPs, but Conerly was also Rookie of the year.
Conerly lost both title games to JOHNNY U
Warner lost to an unknown Brady and a known Rothlisberger
Warner got benched by two head coaches in Martz, who favored Bulger and Coughlin who favored Eli Manning. He also was the backup before replacing Leinhart.
Warner helped Vermeil finally win a championship while Conerly helped make a name for offensive coordinator Vince Lombardi
Yet Warner gets in while Conerly has been a finalist seven times, which means he had alot of support.
Career Penalties: Hutchinson 19 / Faneca 29
Penalties Per Season: Hutchinson 1.5 / Faneca 2.23
Seasons with Zero Penalties: Hutchinson 2 / Faneca 0
Seasons with 1000 yard rusher: Hutchinson 11 / Faneca 9
Seasons with 1100 yard rusher: Hutchinson 11 / Faneca 7
Seasons with 1200 yard rusher: Hutchinson 10 / Faneca 5
Seasons with 1300 yard rusher: Hutchinson 6 / Faneca 5
Seasons with 1400 yard rusher: Hutchinson 4 / Faneca 2
Seasons with 1500 yard rusher: Hutchinson 3 / Faneca 0
Seasons with 1600 yard rusher: Hutchinson 3 / Faneca 0
Seasons with 1700 yard rusher: Hutchinson 2 / Faneca 0
Seasons with 1800 yard rusher: Hutchinson 1 / Faneca 0
Number of different 1000 yard rushers in career: Hutchinson 4 / Faneca 3
Changes in CBA rules: Hutchinson 1 (poison pill prohibited) / Faneca 0
None of the above means that Hutchinson was necessarily better than Faneca. They both blocked for one HOF caliber RB: Peterson for Hutchinson (early in Peterson’s career) and Bettis for Faneca (mid and late in Bettis’s career). However, Hutchinson also helped Chester Taylor to 1216 yards! And, perhaps even more impressively, Shaun Alexander to 1880 yards!
As an aside, future stat heads are going to love Shaun Alexander. They will scream why he has been omitted from the HOF. I just hope I am still alive to explain that he was a very pedestrian back who happened to have an awesome offensive line in front of him (particularly the left side).
Second aside (and back to Hutchinson), Alexander’s rushing total dropped almost 1000 yards after Hutchinson moved to Minnesota: 2005 he had 1880 rushing, 2006 he had 896.
One should also point out that Hutchinson had the good fortune to play next to Walter Jones — a 100th anniversary team member. Faneca didn’t. But Hutchinson had just as good of years in Minnesota than Seattle.
Both were very, very good. I’d give the edge to Hutchinson personally. Clearly Robert would not. But, it definitely isn’t as if Faneca was head and shoulder’s better. There respective post season honors are similar, although Faneca does lead: Faneca 6/9/1st team 2000s to Hutchinson 5/7/1st team 2000s.
Brian: I don’t think Warner should be a HOFer. I’m in the minority. I understand that. Most seem to think he definitely belongs. The one stat I like in his favor is that at his retirement, Warner had the three highest passing yard totals in Super Bowl history. Once can be a fluke (i.e., Timmy Smith — Damn, the Hogs were great), Two could be coincidence. Three is disgusting. That said, he has a HUGE donut hole in his career, and I think that makes him at best a borderline candidate in an HUGELY overrepresented position. Which brings me back to Conerly. QBs are overrepresented in the HOF. I don’t think we need any more from the past (I feel the same way about Ken Anderson). Especially a QB that literally split time for a huge chunk of his career, and regularly came off the bench. Admittedly times were different, and I’ve read that it was a strategy to let Conerly get a feel from the sideline. I respond with the following rejoinder, if Conerly had been more than a 2x pro bowler and 0 time all pro, he wouldn’t have needed the time on the sideline. Conerly would be a HUGE reach for the HOF. I strongly suspect (but have never been told) that his support for the HOF came largely from playing in New York. If he had been the QB of the Steelers, no one would have known his name — actually, the Steelers probably would have cut him like Unitas and Dawson! Also to say that Conerly “made” Lombardi is ridiculous. Are you suggesting that he otherwise wouldn’t have been one of the three greatest coaches of all time? If anything, Lombardi lifted up Conerly.
FWIW, Pro Football Journal ranked Boselli and Hutchinson among their Top 5 among the 15 finalists based on their tape. Faneca was in their bottom five and 12th overall, one ahead of Lynch.
Troy P was ranked 1st overall. The other DBs in order were Butler, Atwater, Lynch.
Brian: More on Conerly. As I re-read your post, I was struck by your statement that Conerly was league MVP. You are correct, but only to a point. Conerly did win an MVP award in 1959 from the Newspaper Enterprise Assoc. I had to look them up. Apparently they were giving out an MVP as late as 2008. However, the organization had a tendency to award atypical players. For example, its last MVP award went to Kurt Warner in 2008. The AP selected Peyton Manning, and the NFL passing yards leader was Drew Brees. Back to Conerly, the year he was awarded the MVP, the AP picked Unitas. Conerly wasn’t picked for the pro bowl, only played in 10 of 12 games, and didn’t even start all of those. He did go 8-1, however, as a starter.
I have read this from different authors.
When Lombardi joined the Giants, he didnt believe in throwing the football and had a hard time adjusting to pro players, Conerly changed his mind, while helping him with strategy and both figured that Gifford could help running and catching passes. Despite having a good receiver in Kyle Rote, the Giants had no speed outside, which is why his stats werent better.
Yes, Conerly was unselfish and allowed Heinrich to start games but Lombardi wanted to go over deployments and tactics with him as they watched defences on the sideline, and let the offensive line get into the flow of the game before Conerly went in.
When Lombardi went to GB because NO ONE wanted him to be a head coach other than a terrible Eagle team, Lombardi wanted a take charge, popular QB like Conerly and didnt believe Starr was that type. He made Starr study Conerly and his play on film, then along with the team, Starr came into his own.
People forget that when Conerly had the Giants out ahead of Baltimore 17-14 with just minutes to play in the 58 championship game, Sport Magazine was ready to name him MVP of the game but Johnny Unitas scored the final ten points of the game for Baltimore, including overtime, which gave him the award.
Shaun Alexander and Adrian Peterson would say Hutchinson was pretty great. I’ve got nothing concrete though.
Actually that’s where your wrong justin I’m in favor of both faneca and hutch but I like hutch a bit more
Lets give Alexander some credit. Yes, he could run soft sometimes but he also had good vision and followed his blocking beautifully. You cant score over 100 TDs being pedestrian. Once he got hurt though, he wasnt the same back. Hutch did benefit with Jones next to him but showed his greatness in Minny as well.
Sad news about Kobe Bryant … RIP
Very sad for everyone on that helicopter and their families.
did some research on twitter and it turns out that mr wolf is right that polamalu might not be a lock, the ques is if he doesnt get in who could get in ahead of him?
He’s getting in
RIP Chris Doleman
Rules changed for this election as once final 5 are determined from vote down from 10 to 5, the last five are not each subject to usual yes/no vote requiring 80%. Find it hard to believe enough voters don’t believe TroyP shouldn’t be 1st ballot to keep him out as pretty clear he is among top 5 and that’s all it will take
I Deion thinks too many are getting elected which in code actually means he doesn’t think Eli is deserving. Ask him who he thinks should be in and you find out it’s not the number but specific cases of who he thinks should or shouldn’t be in. Never understood why current PFHOFers care about the number or who gets into their exclusive club. Such comments come across as elitist, current PFHOFers should enjoy the honor and openly welcome others instead of speaking out against others and numbers being elected into a club they don’t hold the keys to
I think polmaulu is def a lock so is Atwater the ques is whose the other 3
Thinking Boselli is in plus another OL
Robert, I think we’ll see at least one of the OL, hopefully two out of Boselli, Faneca and Hutchinson.
The fifth spot looks to be either Edge James or Isaac Bruce imo. It might be more important for Bruce to hear his name called as we’re heading towards another long WR backlog .
Just a hunch but I think Bruce might sneak in this time with Edge James going in together with Peyton Manning in 2021.
EJames made final 10 last year while Bruce didn’t, makes me think EJames has the edge
Indeed Paul, but it feels like there’s always one curveball each year.
I still expect James to get elected but if there is a potential surprise then I think this might be the one.
Yea after TroyP Atwater and two OL that fifth slot could be wildcard
how big will the backlog be bo knows if bruce doesnt get in this year
Robert
At the moment it’s:
Bruce
Holt/Wayne
Ward
Then:
2021 – Calvin Johnson
2022 – Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Anquan Boldin
bo knows: could it be possible that wayne james and manning go in together in 2021
I don’t think there’s a big push to get Wayne in so soon. Even though he’s done well to be a finalist in his first season of eligibility, I expect he’ll be one of the first five cuts on Saturday while I’m more confident Bruce will be in the Top 10.
His only chance for 2021 is if Bruce gets elected this time. Without that I don’t think he has any hope in 2021 when really there’s only three spots available as Manning and C.Woodson are mortal locks. Calvin Johnson is also on the ballot for the first time.
The next two years will have 10 modern era HOFers. Here’s my 10.
Polamalu
Atwater
Hutchinson
Boselli
Faneca
Bruce
James
P.Manning (2021)
C.Woodson (2021)
The 10th spot is down to Butler, Lynch, Seymour, Thomas or Megatron. I think we’ll see one of them in 2021 and a few others in 2022.
call me crazy but could a bryant young induction happen in the next few years
Bryant is an example of a player who has been on the ballot for several years, then appears to suddenly jump into the final 15. Such an unforeseen move can be a precursor to election that year or soon. I am not so sure the 48 voters would put him in elected five this year, but wildcard surprises do occur. The other DL (Seymour) would seem to be the better candidate of the two for election, but who knows. Personally I am not a big fan of voters suddenly pulling a long time candidate on the ballot into the final 15 and them elect them. But getting in at room, having case presented and heard can propel such a player right to election.
My preference tends to align with those repeat finalists who have made the final 10 in recent past only to be left unelected, seems like they deserve chance to be next up as they clearly have had support of the voters to have made it that far: so yes this year I am talking about Faneca, Boselli, Hutchinson, Atwater and EJames-may be that not all five get in (TroyP will get one slot) but I am still hopefull for at least 3 of them, in my mind they have been debated, have support and are deserving; its time to get them elected and cleared off the ballot. Bryant, Thomas, Butler, Holt etc…. can wait for another election year and there will be spaces available in future elections, which are not very strong on new 1st ballot candidates for election (*likely first ballot):
2021: Peyton Manning*, Charles Woodson*, Calvin Johnson, Jared Allen.
2022: Demarcus Ware*, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Tony Romo, Devin Hester
2023: Joe Thomas*, Dwight Freeney*, Darrelle Revis, James Harrison
2024: Julius Peppers*, Rod Gronkowski*, Antonio Gates
the official NFL 2000s all decade team as elected by the PFHOF votes was announced on January 31st, 2010, so I would expect news on the 2010s team soon, may be part of NFL Honors show Saturday night but I have not read anything that suggests that’s when announcement will be made.
As to the WRS, the voters will have a real mess on their hands in the coming years and I have no idea how they will sort this out. Getting one or two (Bruce? Wayne?) elected in 2021-2022 will help, but a HUGE logjam is still going to hit them by 2022. Of course if they elect a WR in 2020, it may keep either the OL or Safety logjam in place…….here are the WRs on or soon to be on ballot ranked by career receptions, good luck voters!!!
2022 A Boldin 1076rec 0(1)/3/SB
Current R Wayne 1070rec 1(2)/6/SB
2022 A Johnson 1062rec 2(2)/7
2022 S Smith 1031rec 2(1)/5
Current Bruce 1024rec 0(1)/4/SB
Current Ward 1000rec 0/3(4)/2xSB SBMVP
Current Holt 920rec 1(1)/7/ 2nd team All Decade, SB
2021 C Johnson 731rec 3(1)/6/2010s All Decade??
1 small detail id like to add is you never really never know with hof voting
yep one can’t get into mind of 48 voters, and not having sat in that room we have no idea of the discussions and debates that go on, and Hall has made it really clear to the voters that they are not to discuss their votes or specifics from the meeting. All I tend to go on are historical trends in voting and tendencies of the voters, plus following some of the public comments by voters that does filter out. But yep at end of the day we can only guess at outcomes. I have been doing “predictions” for several years, never got the senior nominees correct and best on moderns has been 4/5. Always surprises and will be at least one on Saturday is history holds true, which it usually does
Excellent points paul as usual
Saturday Storylines for the Hall
Four Steelers get elected ? Cowher/Polamalu as coach/player ?
Coach/player Johnson/Thomas get in ?
Seymour gets in as DT/DE ?
Overrall, 5/6 Offensive Linemen ? … 4/5 Safeties ?
Offensive skill positions amongst moderns ?
Can GB join Dallas, Pitts, Chic with multiple selections ?
Re-posting reminder: Official announcement of Modern candidate class of 2020 is on NFL Honors Saturday night around 9p ET. BUT that show airs with one hr tape delay, so actual announcement is live at 8p ET. With show starting at live at 7p ET, those elected are notified (famous knock on door by Baker) before show, around 530-600p ET. And so unofficial social media posts (by players or their families and friends) can start to appear by 6pm. We will certainly know no later than 8p ET.
Meeting usually starts around 8am, with frequent “updates” on NFL Network and a few scenes filmed “behind the scenes” throughout the day in a meeting that can often go as long as 9 hrs! Each finalist is presented by a member of the committee (5 minutes only) then discussion of that candidate-those can range from a few minutes to over 1/2 hr!. Then rounds of voting to reduce to 10 and then to 5. No updates on voting or any results of votes from 15 to 10 and then last vote to 5. This year in order for Hall to get a class of 20, there will be no 3rd and final up/down vote on the final five requiring 80% approval by the voters, once top 5 with most votes in round from 10 to 5 are decided those are elected.
Final prediction for sat night.
1. Troy Polamalu
2. Tony Boselli
3. Edgerrin James
4. Alan Faneca
5. Steve Atwater
Good list Bill, I remain hopeful yet also doubtful for Faneca
Final prediction:
Polamalu
Atwater
Boselli
Hutchinson
James
The last two could go Faneca and Bruce.
Seems always bo the last spot is the wildcard
Finally, today is the day!
One voter has tweeted that class will be introduced on stage at 520p during taping of NFL honors show, so with those elected notified earlier than that we may see unofficial news floating out earlier, around 4p? Without seniors and contributors today’s meeting should be shorter than 9 hrs in past, they started at 8am and guessing voters were given hard end time for all discussions and voting rounds by 3p
Going to go with a final prediction of Polamalu, Atwater, Faneca, Boselli, and as a shot in the dark wildcard pick, Thomas.
First Round of voting from 15 to 10 has started
Still Going with Predictions from Jan 2nd
Atwater
Lynch
James
Faneca
Boselli
5 eliminated 10 left
Class decided
Leroy Butler Not in
Who were left off Robert ?
all i know is boselli and butler did not make it in this year
Feel bad for Boselli , can’t see two guards so we are getting a surprise
i think boselli’s short career continues to hurt him is that fair to say
Are we sure about Boselli? The only think I can find on the internet is his statement from last year. I certainly hope this isn’t the case. This might have been his best chance for a while. Much easier to pass him over for skill position guys and defensive players than other OL. If all the OL are off the ballot, I think in a strange way it hurts him…
Boselli’s presenter is the problem. Dull and uninspiring from what I saw on Twitter.
Good news though for Faneca and Hutchinson. One of them at least is making it.
https://www.news4jax.com/sports/2020/02/01/boselli-misses-out-on-hall-of-fame-honor-again/?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar
Bo: While it is unfair to judge off of short clip, but yeah, Boselli’s clip was the worst presentation of the day …
agreed 100% justin it was a steaming tire fire that couldnt be put out
Thanks, Robert. That is a bummer. He was easily one of my favorite players on the list.
My pleasure Justin
seymour didnt make its
*seymour didnt make it
Does the PFHOF inform the unlucky candidates they didn’t get elected rather than having them wait nervously in their hotel room for the next 2-3 hours?
Seems like those who didn’t make round of 10 know
I think Hall let’s those elected and those not as soon as results are known
In some cases bo
Paul: I was thinking the same thing concerning the “round of 10 know,” but that would mean that Boselli took a very big step back after being in the final 10 the last three years.
Reports that Atwater is in
Congratulations to Steve Atwater !
Butler not getting in is not a shock. The problem is Atwater, Lynch, and Polamalu needs to be inducted first from the safety position.
The problem with Butler his peak was short. I thought his peak was 93 to 98, but only went to 4 pro bowls. That amount pro bowls to me did hurt him some. Being on 4 all pro teams and the 1990s all pro team helps him
Lynch didnt get in
EJames is in
Polamalu in
Congratulations to Edgerrin James and Troy Polamalu … will Faneca get in ?
So far we have EJames Atwater TroyP….
I think it’ll be two from Hutch, Faneca and Bruce.
I predicted 2 OL from the start so sticking with that.
Faneca wasn’t elected
Bruce elected
Hutch Bruce Atwater EJames TroyP is class
Congratulations Issac Bruce !
Congatulations Steve Hutchinson !
Can’t wait to hear who made the top 10.
Bummer that another offensive lineman or any defensive linemen didnt make it. Trenches never get enough respect, though the seniors selections, righted some wrongs.
3/5 for me (4/5 if you count my switch of Faneca for Hutchinson since centennial class) really thought we would get 2 OL, saw Bruce as wildcards but thought he would replace EJames
I meant amongst moderns …
Me too Paul. 4/5 but I had 2 OL (Boselli and Hutch) and I thought Bruce had a shot to sneak in instead of Edge but didn’t think they’d both go in.
I guess the voters might have done themselves a favour with Bruce when you look at the future WR backlog. I’m not sure how that’s going to sort itself out.
Lynch and Butler might have to wait until 2022 with C.Woodson on the ballot next year. D.Woodson could sneak in as a finalist by 2022.
The OL stalemate has been eased slightly. Faneca and Boselli should still get elected in the next two years, one per year.
2021
P.Manning
C.Woodson
Faneca or Boselli
Lynch or Butler
Wildcard pick? Seymour, Thomas, C.Johnson
I don’t think short term prospects for Boselli to be elected are very good
Waiting to see top 10 not elected
the cuts were from 15 to 10… LeRoy Butler, Torry Holt, Sam Mills, Reggie Wayne, and Bryant Young
And from 10 to 5… Tony Boselli, Alan Faneca, John Lynch, Zach Thomas, and Richard Seymour
my ques is paul could boselli fall into the seniors pool
Boselli has made final 10 last four elections, I think he eventually gets in as modern
My very very early and premature prediction for class of 2021 would be Manning, Woodson, Faneca, Lynch, Thomas
woodson would be a big big suprise to jump in to the finalist pool like butler and young this year
Charles Woodson will be first ballot Robert
Bruce was the wild card this weekend, with so many WRs coming up
Inductees in 2021
Manning
Woodson
Faneca
Boselli
Seymour
Pearson
Wistert
Not sure about contributors
my apologies brian i thought we were talking about darren woodson
Your cool Robert, we all want Darren and Abe Woodson getting into the Hall.
I told you I was okay with Polamalu, just didnt think he would get in first ballot
oh ok i completly understand your opinion on polamalu which i respect and can agree with brian
A few observations:
Bruce jumped the queue this year from a 15-10 cut in 2019 to elected in 2020.
Only one OL instead of two but Faneca and Boselli are still both both on the cusp. I know it’s going to be frustrating for them, but having Hutchinson elected should clear the path for one of them to hear their name called next year.
John Lynch moves ahead of Butler and back into the Top 10 after moving backwards in recent years. Next year’s Super Bowl is in Tampa and if the panel go again with two DBs I think it’ll be C.Woodson and Lynch.
Big step forward for Seymour and Thomas into the Top 10.
The Rams now have their “triplets” Warner, Faulk and Bruce elected. Next year it’ll be the Colts with Peyton joining Edge James and Harrison.
The question is who moves on to the semi list who wasnt on this past year and who moves on to the finalist list not named manning and woodson
Robert I think you won the contest but Paul will make it official …
Like I said on TOF Network, next year the Colts and Rams combined, will have ten members from their TWO SB winning teams, while NE has one player from THREE winning teams but …
Seymour
Wilfork
McGinest
Harrison
Samuel
Light
Mankins … all have HOF cases
Well done Robert … 11 out of 20 Selections !!
Thanks Brian
Working on updated post on contest thread with official results
Though I am happy for the Centennial Class of 2020 and felt all the candidates were deserving, still not a big fan of the HOF selection process, and how they milk the suspense for all its worth. I guess its about helping the NFL Network, which to me, has never lived up to expectations, despite having every film, video and game broadcasts, that have ever been done.
I still feel the omission of Drew Pearson left a hole in this overall class, but I do have a bias going back to my youth. Think he gets in next year.
Great debate, discussions, and observations on here !
Now for the players and their family and friends to enjoy their upcoming induction, while the 2019 NFL Champion awaits to be crowned !!
I posted results of our prediction contest on that thread
Under Baker the PFHOF (right or wrong) has turned the Hall, election and enshrinement ceremonies into a huge PR and corporate endeavor with clear aim to raise awareness of Hall and bring in the bucks. That’s all I am going to say about that.
I cant help but think Faneca was slightly better than Hutchinson was, but Hutchinson got the nod. By all means, Hutchinson is very worthy, but if only one had to get in, nine Pro Bowls and six First Team All Pro selections, plus All Decade, just stands out greatly.
I think Baker gets too much exposure, especially with the Santa Claus act, but the players just have to deal with it. Its understandable the disappointed players jump on Twitter about it.
Not about him, but the their disappointment, etc.
Actually it’s amazing the players who don’t get elected don’t express more frustration publicly, Pearson this year and then the whole TO meltdown are rare exceptions
Maybe Hutch would have been voted in regardless, but I still wonder if Faneca was affected by the other Steelers. Its stupid, like Paul said about counting teams but Hutch and Boselli were deserving.
Now the question is, who could be the next HOF RB ?
Watters
Taylor
Barber
Dillon
Or a Senior ? Maybe we have to wait till Gore or Peterson …
Adrian Peterson will be the next HOF RB.
I don’t see any of that 10k/11k club making it.
You might be right BoKnows, Barber has the all purpose yrds, but was he big enough in meaningful games ? He may have retired to soon, but the numbers are there, without a championship.
I can be arrogant, but I can also be right …
Chiefs 2019 Champions !!!
49ers Choked …
Welcome to Canton Andy Reid.
Reid should, but if Shanahan has to wait, not to mention Parker, Seifert, Flores and Holmgren, Reid may wait. Going back to back next year would help.
There are other coaches not in the Hall of Fame with more championships than Andy Reid has. This is true.
Andy Reid also has more than 200 career coaching wins, has a reputation for being an offensive mastermind, and his coaching tree is hailed as one of, if not the best in all the NFL. Andy Reid is finally a Supet Bowl Champion. Two of his former assistants have also gone on to win Super Bowls as a head coach.
I haven’t gotten to root for “my team” in the Super Bowl since the 1985 Miami Dolphins. I always admired the 1969 Chiefs’ Super Bowl win while growing up. No, the Chiefs aren’t my team but I can’t imagine feeling more happy about a win. ? The last time I felt close to this good was the 1997 Denver Broncos win over the Packers after the NFC had dominated the SB for years. This feels like such a great win for the old AFL. I know it’s been 50 years but us older folks bleed AFL still. lol Plus this is a great, great win for middle America and smaller market teams. It just feels so refreshing and couldn’t come to a better organization over the years.
Yes, so happy for Andy Reid. Shouldn’t need to wait for HOF with so many wins and now a Super Bowl win. He may be a top ten coach of all-time. I’ll have to think on that. lol
Pro Football Hall of Fame inductees 2020
Steve Atwater, S, 1989-99.
Isaac Bruce, WR, 1994-2009.
Steve Hutchinson, G, 2001-12.
Edgerrin James, RB, 1999-2009.
Troy Polamalu, S, 2003-14.
I understand these picks but Atwater and Isaac Bruce wouldn’t be mine. I’d rather see John Lynch and Zach Thomas. Safeties are getting a lot of respect now with Harris, Shell , Atwater and Polamalu this year.
IMO Leroy Butler shouldn’t make it if Jake Scott or Dick Anderson don’t.
Boselli has always been a no for me until Jimbo Covert made it. I contend Boselli’s play was tailing off in his last year and if you project out he wouldn’t look like such an attractive pick. Just a hunch though but maybe others see it to.
That was a fun enjoyable entertaining SB, glad to see one of the best fan bases in league finally rewarded after 50 yrs, career and PFHOF validation for Reid, rise of the new great young QB and face of the NFL, and smoking hot halftime show
Early prediction for next year top 15 candidates
1. Peyton Manning
2. Charles Woodson
3. Calvin Johnson
4. Tony Boselli
5. John Lynch
6. Alan Faneca
7. Richard Seymour
8. jared Allen
9. Zach Thomas
10. Sam Mills
11. LeRoy Butler
12. Torry Holt
13. Bryant Young
14. Reggie Wayne
15 Darren Woodson
Bill, you could be right about Mills but 5’9″ players like Mills don’t get into the HOF. lol He was extremely popular because of his heart but falls short for me. I don’t think he was better than Clay Matthews and I have him just on the outside. Zach Thomas is a slight upgrade to them and his accolades can’t be ignored.
I agree with your sentiments Paul. :) It was a great match up of heavy weights. For a minute I thought I was watching 49ers vs Dolphins than Mahomes flipped the script like I wish Miami could of done. Mahomes is already better than Marino in my eye. Hard to be clutch in the biggest moments. This kid is special! That said, the Defense saved the Super Bowl for Mahomes to be the hero. It was a TEAM win.
The 15 2020 Finalists who DIDN’T make the HOF:
Tony Boselli
Leroy Butler
Alan Faneca
Torry Holt
John Lynch
Sam Mills
Richard Seymour
Zach Thomas
Reggie Wayne
Bryant Young
The 2020 25 NFL HOF Finalists who didn’t make HOF:
Steve Atwater, S — 1989-1998 Denver Broncos, 1999 New York Jets | (Times as a Semifinalist: 9 — 2012-2020)
» Carl Banks, LB — 1984-1992 New York Giants, 1993 Washington Redskins, 1994-95 Cleveland Browns | (Times as a Semifinalist: 1 — 2020)
» Ronde Barber, CB/S — 1997-2012 Tampa Bay Buccaneers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 — 2018-2020)
» Tony Boselli, T — 1995-2001 Jacksonville Jaguars, 2002 Houston Texans (injured reserve) | (Times as a Semifinalist: 5 — 2016-2020)
» LeRoy Butler, S — 1990-2001 Green Bay Packers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 — 2018-2020)
» Alan Faneca, G — 1998-2007 Pittsburgh Steelers, 2008-09 New York Jets, 2010 Arizona Cardinals | (Times as a Semifinalist: 5 — 2016-2020)
» Torry Holt, WR — 1999-2008 St. Louis Rams, 2009 Jacksonville Jaguars | (Times as a Semifinalist: 6 — 2015-2020)
» John Lynch, FS — 1993-2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 2004-07 Denver Broncos | (Times as a Semifinalist: 8 — 2013-2020)
» Clay Matthews, LB — 1978-1993 Cleveland Browns, 1994-96 Atlanta Falcons | (Times as a Semifinalist: 4 â?? 2012, 2017, 2019-2020)
» Sam Mills, LB — 1986-1994 New Orleans Saints, 1995-97 Carolina Panthers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 — 2016, 2019-2020)
» Simeon Rice, DE — 1996-2000 Arizona Cardinals, 2001-06 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 2007 Denver Broncos, 2007 Indianapolis Colts | (Times as a Semifinalist: 2 — 2018, 2020)
» Richard Seymour, DE/DT — 2001-08 New England Patriots, 2009-2012 Oakland Raiders | (Times as a Semifinalist: 3 — 2018-2020)
» Steve Tasker, ST/WR — 1985-86 Houston Oilers, 1986-1997 Buffalo Bills | (Times as a Semifinalist: 7 — 2004, 2008-2010, 2012-13, 2020)
» Fred Taylor, RB — 1998-2008 Jacksonville Jaguars, 2009-2010 New England Patriots | (Times as a Semifinalist: 1 — 2020)
» Zach Thomas, LB — 1996-2007 Miami Dolphins, 2008 Dallas Cowboys | (Times as a Semifinalist: 2 — 2019-2020)
» Hines Ward, WR — 1998-2011 Pittsburgh Steelers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 4 — 2017-2020)
» Ricky Watters, RB — 1992-94 San Francisco 49ers, 1995-97 Philadelphia Eagles, 1998-2001 Seattle Seahawks | (Times as a Semifinalist: 1 — 2020)
» Reggie Wayne, WR — 2001-2014 Indianapolis Colts | (Times as a Semifinalist: 1 — 2020)
» Patrick Willis, LB — 2007-2014 San Francisco 49ers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 1 — 2020)
» Darren Woodson, S — 1992-2003 Dallas Cowboys | (Times as a Semifinalist: 4 — 2015, 2017, 2019-2020)
» Bryant Young, DT — 1994-2007 San Francisco 49ers | (Times as a Semifinalist: 1 — 2020)
My 15 picks for 2021 and HOF picks are:
1. Peyton Manning – HOF
2. Charles Woodson – HOF
3. Calvin Johnson
4. Jared Allen – HOF
5. John Lynch
6. Alan Faneca – HOF
7. Richard Seymour
8. Zach Thomas
9. Torry Holt
10. Reggie Wayne
11. Darren Woodson – HOF
12. Hines Ward
13. Ronde Barber
14. Fred Taylor
15. Steve Tasker
I like your opinions TonyP but Mahomes isnt in Marino’s class … yet
A Championship helps, but until that big pass to Hill, he had problems throwing a slick, new football.
Sherman and the Niner secondary played a great game until giving up the passes to Hill, then Watkins on Sherman.
I never thought their defence would give up three TDs in less than seven minutes ?
Another big game for Watkins, though KC may let him go.
neither did i brian i never in a million years expected sf’s defense to fold like that the ques is does allen sneak in to the finalist pool his first year and who does he leap over
This upcoming class is interesting, Robert “The Greatest” because many people feel Jared Allen should be first ballot. I think he was a great pass rusher, but didn’t do enough in big games, so I would make him wait.
Watching the replay of the Super Bowl, KC really got away with a lot of holding on Bosa for the Niners. His pass rush was relentless, and he did a great job despite being held. The Niners defence might have gotten too cocky after that second interception of Mahomes but that pass to Hill was a critical play. If Mahomes, Hill and Kelce stay healthy, skys the limit on their careers.
Was this Henry Ellard’s, Carl Banks and Wilbur Marshall’s last year on the ballot?
Banks and Marshall yes (last season was 1995) but Ellard has three more years on modern ballot
Manning and CWoodson will be first ballot, Allen will not and I am not even sure Calvin Johnson will be given how the Hall voters views 1st ballot WRs, first team all decade in 2010s could help his case
Johnson could be first ballot as well, since they have put alot of them in, these last six years but who knows ?
Johnson will probably get elected after 3-4 years. He scores very highly on peak and dominance but a short career, Manning and Woodson, and a WR backlog will very likely prevent him going in next year.
Only Rice and Moss have been first ballot WRs in the last 20 years. The next one will almost certainly be Larry Fitzgerald.
Last year on the ballot:
2021- Matthews
2022 – Tasker and Mills
Must be Gary Clark’s last year on the ballot as well. I know he doesn’t have a ton of accolades, but I think arguments could be made for Wilber Marshall being a HOFamer. When he played, you always noticed how much his name was mentioned during the course of a game. I don’t think Clark or banks ever get in.
Wilber Marshall wouldn’t be a bad Seniors pick some day. He was a 3-time All Pro (2 first-team) and was a star on two Super Bowl winning teams, the 85 Bears and 91 Redskins.
in terms of 2021 im not too sure how allen gets in before seymour or young who have been on the ballot longer and i really dont think butler will get in next year with woodson going in how do you guys look at 2022-23
2022
Ware
Boselli/Faneca (one in 2021 the other in 2022)
Seymour/Z.Thomas (see above)
Butler (Lynch in 21)
Calvin Johnson
2023
Joe Thomas
Darelle Revis
Jared Allen
Wayne/Holt
?
Rick Gosselin has posted that the Hall has not yet sent 2010s all decade team to the voters
Not yet sent ballot for 2010s all decade team to voters
Eric Weddle just announced his retirement. Wish he played a few more seasons and racked up 1-2 more Pro Bowls. His resume is 3/6/10s? with an Int Title, 1,179 combined tackles,9.5 sacks, and 5 Defensive TDs. That is a borderline HOF career to me. It’s just hard for Safeties to make it. Look at Steve Atwater, with a much better resume.
2x first team all pro selections makes for very unlikely PFHOF selection for any player, especially non QB, WR or RB, if selected for 2010s all decade might help his case, but then again ask Cliff Harris how long that took
Eric Weddle will have a long wait, and has the look of a future senior candidate.
Working on a new thread to post for Hall 2021 and Beyond discussions
Thanks Paul
Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders and Art Monk. One of the better WR trios of all-time. I would of picked Clark over Monk for HOF if given a choice. I never did understand the uproar over Monk’s wait. Didn’t he have the catch record for a time?
The HOF don’t like smurfs. LOL! I appreciate the guts it takes for small players to excel with all these huge men flying around at them. It does give more credence to Dan Marino’s greatness that his three primary WR targets during his career were only 5’9″ in Nat Moore, Mark Duper and Mark Clayton. Now every team must have big targets at WR.
I’m surprised Steve Largent wasn’t a 1st ballot HOFer. I’m thinking he may be the shortest HOFer of all at 5’11”.
Larry Fitzgerald won the Peeble Beach Pro -Am with Kevin Streelman for the second time. Only the 4th duo in history to do twice. He may have a new career after Football? lol
Largent was first ballot tony
Monk held record for 3 years, between Largent and Rice. I think the beef that some voters had, which kept him out for years, was only one all pro season, led league in receptions once, was a compiler who used sixteen seasons (12 with 73 or less receptions, 7 seasons under 50) to get to 940, only 68 TDs, Plus his time on ballot occurred when WR numbers started to soar and his stats quickly paled by comparison. I don’t necessarily agree with those views but it was held by a number of voters.
I agree with you Paul on the assumptions of Monk.
Despite being a graceful tall receiver, its obvious his championships and longevity vaulted him into the HOF because his TD totals were low for that many catches.
Some people I have talked to believe Hester will be the next Special Teams player in the Hall, but I wouldn’t put him in, at all.
If there was a special teams HOF, he would belong but not the PFHOF …
Yes, he was spectacular as a KO/Punt Returner with big yardage and 20 career Ds …
But he was also a failed CB and failed Wide Receiver, scoring only 36 combined career TDs in over 160 games.
Sorry, but 36 career TDs in 11 seasons doesnt make you a HOF player, over other great SP teams players like Mitchell, Gray, Woodson, Mason, Parrish, Walker, Sproles and others.
Getting back to Monk, If he is in, I dont know why Ellard still isnt ? At least Monk had good QBs throwing to him …
Sorry, 20 Return TDs …
Like I stated on TOF/Maven site today, I hope the Voters on various selection committees with the PFHOF, do a complete Reevaluation and Recategorization of the All Decade teams, the creation of Mid Decade Teams, following the examples by Pro Football Journals site, and better designation of 1st and second team choices for these All Decade and Mid Decade teams.
I am not advocating adding or omitting players from these teams, but with better reevaluation and recategorization, more great players could be added, as an example …
Since a player like Nobis cant be omitted from the 60s All Decade team, because he was voted on, despite only playing three full seasons in the 60s, why not, as PFJ suggested, just OFFICIALLY recategorize him on a Mid Decade Team from 1965-1975 ?
Thus, with his new redesignation, as well as putting a linebacker like Larry Morris on a more appropriate 55-65 team, Chuck Howley with his All Pro selections during the 60s, could be put on the 60s team like he deserves.
In my research of All Decades teams from the 1920s to the 1990s, when the voters finally got the later teams right, that at least 45 players had either not played enough seasons to qualify as All Decade selections or were miscategorized because their careers overlapped subsequent, or mid decades.
Then there are stupid picks like Cecil Isbell, Gaynell Tinsley and Frank Cope all making the 30s All Decade team playing only TWO seasons. Byron “Whizzer” White and George Conner playing TWO years and making the 40s team, with Earl Campbell making the 70s team despite only TWO seasons.
Covert played in the 80s but was All Decade despite two pro bowls ?
With these Reevaluations and Recategorizations, the arguments for deserving players, can be much more thorough, and more transparent, with the players better judged for their time period but postseasons and winning championships as well as other accolades, postseason awards and testimonials, should tip the scales for Hall worthy candidates.
Covert’s injustice was not being named to the All-Decade team…it was being named to only two Pro-Bowls.
You realize the all decade teams of the 20s 30s 40s and 50s were all determined in 1969 as part of NFL 50th anniversary. May explain some of the weird selections, also hurt by lack of all pro, pro bowl or other selections during the early decades of the league. Can’t disagree to the errors, omissions and odd choices but I don’t see the interest or need at this point to redo the teams and although I understand the idea for mid decade teams, I doubt the Hall is interested in creating yet another set of decade teams. They are imperfect but they are what they are at this point.
Yes, I know they were mostly picked in 1969, which is why there is no reason why they cant be reevaluated and recatergorized in a better, official way like the example Pro Football Jounal did.
Are the voters and committee members too lazy to get it right ? Or just dont want to step on the toes of former writers/voters that did it wrong ?
Why should they even rely on All Decade players having a leg up on the HOF, when they cant even get the choices right ?
So Chuck Howley has to suffer, because some writer/voter from Atlanta wanted Nobis on the 60s All Decade team despite only playing three years ? Its not right.
Like I said, when I count over 40 players being elected to All-Decade teams, without them playing long enough to warrant it, the whole system of these “teams” need to be reevaluated, categorized, with Mid Decade teams and made official, for better overall research and representation. Its only fair to the players who need these teams, to better represent their cases.
Look it now, we fans KNOW that All-Decade selection carries a lot of weight, especially first-team selections, yet here we are, waiting for the HOF committees to elect a 2010 – 2019 team, and they haven’t even gotten around to it yet !!
I don’t think Hall and current voters would be interested in reopening and revisiting decisions made by previous committee, likely prefer to just let it lie
Good stuff Brian. That All-Decade Team hasn’t worked well for Nobis and I don’t get it. Such a great college player and the First pick in the 1966 Draft didn’t disappoint despite playing for a crappy expansion team.
https://www.atlantafalcons.com/news/it-s-time
Nobis was a great player but his era was 65 -75, not the 60s, despite making a splash. He still made it among the final 20 seniors so his All Decade selection helped. Chuck Howley didnt even get that far.
Like Paul said, todays writers probably wont mess with former voters decisions from the past, in terms of these All Decade teams but at least Pro Football Journal gave good examples for the HOF to try, with Mid Decade Teams if they wanted to try it for better research/arguments for deserving players.
For all the supposed effort to have a centennial class to address all decade team players elected, the effort of Gosselin, only 2 of the 7 first team not in Hall got elected. Guess it wasn’t as much of a focus for the BRP, perhaps non voters were not as concerned all that issue when voting as Dilweg and Emerson would have been ideal picks. Time will tell in the coming elections how the seniors committee views all decade team members and the ten seniors from the centennial class not elected
Former WR Greg Jennings just said, “in the NFL it’s easy to get into the HOF”. LOL! He was making an argument for Phillip Rivers based on his stats. Writer Rob Parker isn’t buying it, saying Rivers has more kids than playoff wins. He says you shouldn’t have to debate if a player is a HOFer or not. hahaha He actually might be right about a QB. John Brodie, John Hadl, Ken Anderson, Joe Theisman, Phil Simms etc….
No, I wasn’t saying anything about Nobis deserving 60’s All Decade Team. I know I’m a broken record. Larry Wilson 1/1 1970 ended career in 1972 is 2nd Team 70’s All Decade Team. Jake Scott 2/5 Super Bowl MVP zipola!! Sticks in my craw. Tell Jake Scott HOF is easy to get into. lol He can’t even make a Decade Team.
It the debate theory holds true for QB than Eli Manning shouldn’t make the HOF for a lonnnnnnnnng time. :)
But who’s one of the QB who’s HOF selection is questioned the most? Give you a hint he played for the same city as Eli. :) If Eli played for the Falcons is he thought of the same way?
I understand your feelings about Scott and Anderson, TonyP … I would take either over Cliff Harris but they also cancel each other out.
Youre right about Namath, and Conerly, Simms and Manning have arguments as well. Since Peyton will get in next year, it may be awhile before another QB gets in, unless Anderson gets in.
The only QBs playing now, that may have future cases is Brady of course, Rodgers, Brees, Big Ben, Wilson and Mahomes, if they stay healthy. Not sold on Rivers, Eli, Ryan, Stafford, Luck, Newton or Alex Smith.
If Flacco pulled a Kurt Warner, and took another team to a championship, which Warner couldnt do, he has a shot as well, but thats a Big IF …
Pigs will fly before Flacco leads another team to a title. And besides, Warner’s resumé outside those two titles is much stronger. He was also league MVP on an historic offense. The 2013 Ravens are also best remembered for their D with Lewis, Reed, Suggs etc.
As for the Seniors, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see Branch, Pearson and Nobis all elected in the coming years.
I think there will be a much bigger push to get these players eventually inducted, given the publicity this Seniors group has been given.
Could we say the same if Covert, Carmichael and Sprinkle didn’t get selected as part of the Centennial Class? I’m not so sure.
What’s your opinion BoKnows on the HOF taking Pro Football Journals lead in creating Mid Decade Teams and Reevaluating/Recategorizing the proper players into these teams and making it official.
Like I said, players wont be omitted, but some could perhaps be added to create better TEAMS of players, rather than numbers and possible, better designations of first and second team picks ?
Brian,
Can you say, “I would take either over Cliff Harris but they also cancel each other out ” one more time. LOL! Hear that Paul? You made my day. :) Thank you for that. lol
I actually think Flacco could have some success in Denver if they stick with him. With the skill level of QB’s in the NFL being raised the last couple decades IMO so should the bar making stats less relevant. That goes to a lesser degree for WR’s too. Just look at those gloves they wear. LOL
Rivers has an argument and I think Ryan will when he’s done but neither are an easy call for me without more Playoff success. Russell Wilson is interesting. If he can get to even an NFC Championship game without the Legion of Boom I’d be inclined to pencil him in provided he stays healthy for a few more years . Otherwise he’s like all of the rest on the fence to me.
Brady, Brees, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Big Ben are safe bets for me. Along with Warner that makes 6 QB’s over 2 decades.
The 60-70’s had Starr, Dawson, Namath, Jurgenson, Tarkington, Greise, Staubach, Stabler and Bradshaw making 9.
The 80-90’s had Marino, Elway, Montana, Moon, Kelly, Aikman and Young making 7.
Anyone care to wager a bet over or under 8.5 for 00-10’s QB’s in the HOF? lol You’ve got Eli, Rivers, Ryan, Romo, Flacco and Wilson in the realm of possibility. Luck has no chance.
Did Kenny Stabler have the longest HOF wait to date of any QB in the modern era?
Maybe I was too hard on Wilson?
Wilson is well on the way to Canton.
Favre can be added to the 80s-90s era to make 8.
Paul already knows I can argue with walls about players, and shakes his head on some of my comments but thats the fun, getting everyone engaged and fired up !! haha…
You’re right about Stabler. I think him and Namath belong, but not Warner … haha, though its close.
You werent to hard on Wilson but considering his great running ability, winning pct and getting near 100 victories so fast, I think he will get in, but another championship helps everybody !
Definitely under 8.5 for current era …
Bo’s right, no pigs going to fly with current crop of QB’s in the AFC but I could see Bronco’s sneaking into playoffs with Flacco. They lost so many close games before he got hurt.
Has WR Rod Smith 0/3 ever made the 25 Finalist list for HOF? If not a shame, he’s deserving of a good look in my book. I wouldn’t of minded if he was put in before Isaac Bruce 0/4. Not his fault he didn’t play for the Greatest Show on Turf. He played in an balanced attack sharing the ball with TD and Shannon Sharpe. Sharpe was very good but lets say it, he’s largely in the HOF because they called him a TE. At 228 lbs he wasn’t a TE and his blocking reflected it. Who was a better receiver Sharpe or Smith?
Ozzie Newsome 1/3 same thing but he was the show in Cleveland. Still curious how he makes HOF with that profile on a primarily losing team? Only an AV of 77. I know I know he was the Wizard! lol Billy “White shoes” Johnson 1/3 was pretty entertaining too. Can they talk about the history of the NFL in the 1970’s without bringing up his name? By the way he was 5’9″ too lol 170 lbs and survived 14 years in the NFL. Pretty remarkable. No I’m not saying he’s a HOFer. :)
50 something years ago iron Mike Ditka weighed the same 228 lbs but he wasn’t small on the line. Now Travis Kelce is primarily a pass catching TE at 260 lbs. Maybe I’m wrong in my thinking but TE’s are suppose to be a little close to the size of a Linemen. Not fair IMO to compare the running and receiving ability of players 30-40 lbs different yet Shannon Sharpe is a 4/8 against other TE’s of his day.
Ok can’t change anything just venting about what I and many see as a little injustice. lol Sharpe heard it his whole career. I won’t lose sleep over it. :)
I knew I’d forget somebody. thanks Bo.
Bruce retired 2nd Rice all time while Newsome retired 1st in career receptions by TE, all pro and pro bowl selections although helpful don’t always tell the complete career picture
I like Rod Smith, he was an excellent receiver and I felt, should have been MVP in the 98/99 SB, but I don’t think he will make the HOF, at least anytime soon. He benefitted with Sharpe and McCaffery alongside him, while overcoming his tendency to drop passes. Same with Clark for the Skins, as tough as Steve Smith, especially going over the middle but also dropped a lot of passes. I think Smith will be the next WR under 5’10 getting into the HOF …
I know Duper, Clayton and Moore were great receivers for Miami but could you imagine if Wesley Walker could have played with Marino, TonyP ?.. he might be in the HOF, because he was as good a deep threat as Lofton, Duper or Randy Moss. I had a chance to buy his throwback jersey one time for 40 bucks and passed … It was a cool jersey.
I am not so sure Steve Smith Sr is a PFHOFer and ever gets in as there are several WRs from his era with similar numbers and I am not so sure they all get in. At some point the voters will elect some and then move on to other positions and eras
Who’s the first WR under 5’10” to be in the HOF?
Sorry Brian but as a Dolphins’ fan I wouldn’t take a Wesley Walker jersey if they framed it and gave it to me. LOL I despise the Jets to this day even though they lose. It is one of the most even rivalries in NFL history even they they games usually have little playoff significance, OK none! Ya, Walker was really special with the deep ball for several years but so were a lot of players. Harold Jackson, Mel Gray, Isaac Curtis, Cliff Branch, Wes Chandler, Roy Green all could blaze. Most of them have slightly better accolades than Isaac Bruce, Art Monk, Lynn Swann and Charlie Joiner. Seems like a lot of gray with the HOF and WR’s but maybe dropped balls factor in and I just don’t remember well on that. I know winning SB’s does. That’s why it’s getting ridiculous that Branch with 3 is still on the outside. Seems like Wesley Walker was hurt a lot in his career. He actually was remarkable because he was he legally blind in one eye. Still don’t want his jersey.
Y’all know I’m a big supporter of Corey Dillon’s career. He was a brute for a bad team and than finished up with a bang. About time he gets a sniff IMO.
At 2/5 Steve Smith should be a shoe in. He really was great IMO for lots of years. But he’s too short. lol
Looks to me like Wesley Walker may of had the best start to a career for 3 years for the long ball of any player in NFL history. I know he made a hell of a huge splash. Mel Gray may be the most consistent bomb catcher for a career catching passes of 69-80 yards just about every year and I know they dinks like you see today coming from QB Jim Hart.
And Paul Warfield was amazing with his average per catch at 20.1 over his career but I remember him as an all around pass catcher. One of the best route runners of all time and the only 1st ballot HOFer until Jerry Rice. I wish I could of seen him play more. He was so damn graceful like a Lynn Swann. Where’s Bach’s to tell me more.? I wish he’d come back. He was really demoralized over the resent selections. Don’t blame him some were a joke.
I knew as soon as I said it, Warfield was the only 1st Ballot WR HOFer, I had to look up Lance Alworth. :) Sure enough I was wrong. Than I had to look up Raymond Berry. Sure enough. Ok I mispoke might be more. lol
According to Wikipedia, Forbes, IMDb & Various Online resources, famous Football Player Paul Warfield’s net worth is $118 Million at the age of 76 years old. He earned the money being a professional Football Player. He is from OH.
The man is a success. I can assure you he didn’t make much money playing football in the 1970’s. LOL
Funny how all these old players I look up are still alive when they played when the rules protected a player much less yet they ‘re into their 80’s somehow surviving in a time of the talk of the ravages of CTE. Maybe they didn’t hit that hard in Dick Butkus’ day? I doubt it. I know the negative aftermath of football to the brain is very real. It would be nice to have a clue as to how much. I know Tony Dorsett and jim McMahon have real problems.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bears/ct-jim-mcmahon-85-bears-film-spt-0128-20160127-story.html
Steve Largent was also first ballot in 1995. Finished his career as the all time leader in receptions, receiving yards and receiving TDs.
To me, Warfield was the best … the ultimate weapon.
Tommy McDonald of the Eagles at 5’9 is the shortest receiver I think in the HOF …
Thank you Brian. So it is possible!!! lol I barely know the name. You would think his name might come up if for no other reason he’s in the HOF at his size. If it was a QB I bet they would mention.
When I think of the 60’s in the NFL I don’t think of too many really great skill players outside of Jim Brown, Gayle Sayers, Raymond Berry, Lenny Moore and probably a few others but not wowed by. It was a good thing the AFL-NFL merged to add more excitement to the game.
I’m really surprised how many WR’s in the range of 1/3 or 4 or no AP’s are in the HOF. Even Bobby Mitchell who was suppose to be pretty great was a 1/3. I guess he was unique going from HB to WR. Forgot to put Bob Hayes in the all time deep threat. Maybe something I’m missing but looking at the numbers and he waited to long for HOF?
Could Gene Washington 3/4 be being overlooked? I don’t hear his name often in HOF talk.
So do we think Chuck Howley ever gets in if he didn’t this year when many had him near the top of priority like Jerry Kramer and Johnny Robinson before him.? I’m starting to doubt it. I think if he doesn’t get in next time it’s not happening.
I actually think Largent is shorter than 5’10 …
McDonald was the Julian Edelman of his time.
Fearless over the middle, and took punishment.
I think he was second or third in all time receiving TDs when he retired.
I really believe Howley will have another chance but hopefully, it will be in the next five years.
Personally I am much less confident in chances for Howley than I have ever been. Unless the senior committee totally ignores the ten seniors from the centennial class not elected (especially Branch, Craig, Dilweg, Emerson, Gradishar, Lewellen, Nobis, Pearson, Wistert) – and its always possible they will not given them special consideration – I think Howley is in for a long wait for election. For whatever reason the 9 member senior selection committee hasn’t advanced his case in recent years and its appears at this point to have stalled. Very unfortunate.
“Funny how all these old players I look up are still alive when they played when the rules protected a player much less yet they ‘re into their 80’s somehow surviving in a time of the talk of the ravages of CTE. ”
Even with limited science on CTE, brain injuries are unpredictable and factors, reasons for such damages remains unknown and uncertain. Even as the science advanced and appears that repeated impacts to the head from HS, CFB and NFL, its unlikely that we will ever know which players (and why) have suffered the most damage while others do not appear to have CTE. It was truly a brutal game in the past, especially pre 1990s, but how the human body including the brain responds to trauma will remain a mystery. Hence the productive and cautionary approach now taken regarding helmet design, repeated concussions and hits to the head and overall player safety.
I actually think he will Paul, because with Dilweg, Lewellen, Latone, Sacksteder, Al Nesser, Buck, Emerson and WISTERT, still not getting the respect and inductions they should have, I think Howley being a more recent player, could slip through the cracks but we will see.
Only Slater was able to break through amongst 20s – 30s players …
Time will tell but you also have Branch, Craig, Dilweg, Gradishar, Nobis, Pearson, and that’s just the remaining centennial class members from 60s to 80s, plus other seniors from that group, and assuming no pre 1960 candidates are elected. It’s just in my view his case has stalled or fallen behind others, doesn’t seem to have much interest from voters
Oops didn’t mean to include Dilweg in that list
Predictions … next ten seniors
2021 … Pearson Gradishar
2022 … Wistert Branch
2023 … Emerson Howley
2024 … Dilweg Craig
2025 … Lewellen Nobis
Sterling Sharpe and Ken Anderson are sleeper picks of the seniors along with Howley
Good list of 12 Brian, but I stopped making senior predictions a few years ago because with a rotating 5 senior committee members making the selections each year its impossible to predict their choices, frankly with Kramer and Robinson elected it’s a wide open field of contenders, should be interesting to see results in coming years and how voters handle the BRP centennial class seniors not yet elected
I like your opinions about the safety issues Paul. What do you guys think about the XFL kickoff rules? I think they are great and NFL should copy.
I’ll make a bold prediction. Since Ken Stabler had a rough time getting into the HOF, Ken Anderson will never be a HOFer. Not enough winning or playoff success.
Of course I have to come up with a list mow. lol But mine is a wish list of players I think are most deserving. Seems like most everyone I think of is a LB.
2021 … Howley,Kuechenberg
2022 … Branch, Baughan
2023 … Gradishar, Taylor
2024 … Jackson, Greenwood
2025 … Robertson, Parrish
Anyone think we might see Mike Alstott 3/6 in the top 25 any time soon?
Could of added Tommy Nobis 1/5, Bill Bergey 2/5 and Matt Blair 1/6.
I hope that the senior committee doesn’t totally abandon the great pre-50s candidates that were finalists this year but didn’t get it. However I am not ready to believe that the 10 seniors that weren’t elected this year will suddenly become the top 10 priorities of the senior committee.
Guys like Howley, Hayes, Greenwood, Anderson, etc. Still stand pretty good chances at upcoming nominations since they remain arguably the biggest snubs at their positions.
The two deserving players that I think are going to be waiting awhile are Patton and Meador. With the hall inducting 7 safeties in 2 years, it may be a few years before the senior committee circles back to the safety position.
From Clark Judge on ToF, apparently PFHOF is sending all decade ballots to the voters later this month or in March, so there will be a team announced we just don’t know exactly when, in “decades” past it ranged from January to July according to John Turney of PFJ
BSLO I tend to agree with you on senior committee and how they may not suddenly make non elected centennial class members a priority
bslo would you agree about kuechenberg as a senior snub
I take it TonyP , the Taylor youre referring to on the 2023 selection is Lionel Taylor ?
He has a case, but Hennigan, Powell and Burford have AFL cases as well.
These smaller players have the best cases to me …
Emerson, Wistert, Mills, Tuggle, Dunn, Thomas, Boyd, Stepnoski, Grantham, Mathis and maybe Dumervil.
Perkins for Dallas was a FB at 205 lbs but I think he is so underrated as well, and Jerry Smith of Washington though a WR, was listed as a 205 lb TE …
No actually I was talking about Kansas City’s WR Otis Taylor 2/3 1965-75 who has very much the same profile as Bob Hayes. I’m thinking he must look very good on film study too.
https://kckingdom.com/2019/07/03/otis-taylor-kansas-city-chiefs-biggest-hall-of-fame-snub/
Thomas? I see Henry Thomas has a great stat line with 93,5 sacks for a DT/NT. Zach Thomas 5/7 is just a matter of time. Personally he’s waited too long.
I keep thinking John Lynch should be in the HOF already but based on Atwater, Lynch should wait at least 20 years. Really they are about the same player except Atwater did his numbers in a shorter amount of time. Lynch should be in by 2030.
Lynch is getting elected next year – just watch
Why should I support Abe Woodson for HOF? I’m not seeing it.
Otis Taylor !! Thats right … Duh
Should already be in. People like Lionel Taylor as well.
Abe Woodson was a great cornerback and kick/punt returner … I believe invented Bump and Run Coverage. Players and coaches like Vince Lombardi and Raymond Berry, thought he was one of the best along with Night Train Lane …
His great nephew is Charles Woodson …
Henry Thomas deserves to be in … played DT on pass downs and NT on run downs … allowed Randle to go after the passer while having 93 sacks himself …
Jerry Rice often regarded as the best NFL player of all-time, is no doubt the greatest scoring weapon in Modern Day NFL history with 208 TD’s in 1,636 touches or a TD every 7.9 times he touched the ball.
Before Jerry Rice, Jim Brown was the Modern Day NFL gold standard. 126 TD’s in 2,621 touches or a TD every 20.8 times he touched the ball. I’m not counting Cinncy’s Pete Johnson who was a short yardage specialist and barely edges Brown out with a TD every 20.3 touches. lol
The All-time greatest scoring weapon was Don Hutson with 102 TD’s in 777 touches or a TD in every 7.6 touches.
By comparison Eric Metcalf one of the most exciting players in NFL history has 55 TD’s in 1,701 touches. Of course 12 of his TD’s were kick returns. Pretty impressive. A TD in every 30.9 touches.
There’s a HOF RB who was considered exciting and versatile with 54 TD’s in 2,021 touches. A TD in every 37.8 touches.
What do we think about 2/3 Eric Metcalf chances?
Oh boy Brian, I think they shrunk him lol but Pro Football Reference says Emmitt Smith was 5’9″. I whiffed on that.
Wow great info Brian!
Yes TonyP but we were talking about small receivers not running backs … Smith is short but powerful with legs like tree trunks … Warrick Dunn was 5’8 180 … the smallest player ever with over 15,000 scrimmage yards and ran between the tackles !
And Steve Smith will be in the HOF with over 15,000 receiving yards and 19,000 All purpose yards … A Tough Sumbitch …
Ken Kavanaugh for the Bears had 52 TDs overrall and 50 TDs on just 162 catches !
Easily the best Catch to TD ratio ever …
Paul Warfield also had 85 TDs to just 427 catches …
The CBS Network knew how good Warfield was … back in 1968, the Network was reluctant to show a lot of instant replay and isolation cameras on players … but in the 1968 NFL Championship Game between Cleveland and Baltimore the cameras were following Warfield the entire game because they knew he could run through the Baltimore defence with his speed and gliding strides … He did the same thing to KC and Baltimore during the 71 Postseason … He would KILL single coverage … In the 72 SB he had a 63 yard TD pass called back because of illegal motion on his teammate.
The Guy was MONEY but most of us know that. I STILL cant get one of his throwback jerseys … haha
Greatest Football Players I Have Ever Seen …
Walter Payton
Joe Montana
Ronnie Lott
Paul Warfield
Roger Staubach
Barry Sanders
Jerry Rice
Bo Jackson
Junior Seau
Jim Brown only on film
Brett Favre
Reggie White
Tom Brady
Larry Allen in the trenches
Lynn Swann
I couldn’t think of any 5’9″ HOFer . Darren Sproles is 5’6″ but I don’t think he makes it but he’s 5th on total yards list.
One of my favorite players to watch was the 5’8″ human joystick Dante Hall. He had 12 kick return TD’s like Metcalf.
I guess Devin Hester is the only one with a real shot.
When people think of S Jake Scott I don’t think he gets credit for being a good Punt Returner. 10.4 is a good lifetime average.
Other than Gayle Sayers has there ever been a great kick returner make the HOF?
Ya, I thought about Warfield after the fact. Can you imagine the best WR in football living quietly today with 29 catches for a whole year even if they do win a SB? He did have 12 TD’s though. lol What a weapon!! Everyone was trying to stop Csonka, Morris and Kiick. Hell, the media went nuts a few weeks ago over ONE Playoff game when the 49ers killed their opponent with run domination. They try to start controversy.
Forgot Marvin Harrison … he would be ahead of Swann …
I wanted to put Sayers, Unitas, Alworth on my list but only saw them on film.
Sproles will get in … he just has to wait.
John Madden thought Dick Anderson and Johnny Robinson were the smartest safeties he ever coached against.
Damn I forgot to mention Dwight Stephensen at center … he Dominated opponents like Larry Allen
Rod Woodson was a great returner as well in the Hall but didnt do it alot. Also Ollie Matson for the Cardinals.
I didn’t see any NFL games growing up in Central Texas. I’ve only been to one NFL game in my life. The 1-13 Oilers played the browns and Leroy Kelly. Bo Scott was the star of the game. Best player I’ve seen in person was Earl Campbell when he was at University of Texas. He was unbelievable the way he carried people and sneaky fast too. He didn’t miss a beat in the NFL. It was like there was no adjustment at all. He was a beasgt!! No one ever stopped him in college until he ran into Notre Dame in the Cotton Bowl. That Defense with Ross Browner was a brick wall. Those Browner’s were some football players. Six of them made it to the NFL.
How about this Secondary unit for USC in the early 80’s – Ronnie Lott 6/10, Ross Browner 3/6, Dennis Smith 0/6 and Jeff Fisher. Along with teammates Anthony Munoz 9/11, Marcus Allen 2/6 and Charles White 1/1.
I saw Jim Kelly play when he was with Miami.. Man did that he throw a nice ball. It was so much fun seeing him air it out with the Gamblers.
Truth be told unless you have great seats I’d much rather watch the game on TV. Same for basketball. I like seeing baseball live.
You saw most of those players live Brian? That’s impressive. You must be near a major city.
Some live … most on t.v or games on dvd …
I was raised mostly watching Cowboys games.
Besides Nat Moore, other underrated Dolphins were Tony Nathan, Howard Twilley, Terrell Buckley, Bernie Parmalee, Patrick Surtain, Curtis Johnson, Bob Matheson, OJ McDuffie, Larry Izzo, Bill Stanfill, Ed Newman
Bill Arnsparger was one of the best defensive coaches of All time … Should be in the HOF
So who are the shortest players in the HOF?
Barry Sanders is 5-8
At 5-9 I can think of Emmitt Smith, Tommy McDonald and Darrell Green.
Best players I’ve seen playing live with my own eyes are:
Dan Marino
Tom Brady
Randy Moss
Junior Seau
Michael Strahan
Drew Brees
LaDainian Tomlinson
Philip Rivers
Russell Wilson
Calvin Johnson
Tony Romo
Jason Witten
Khalil Mack
Didn’t really see Jim Brown. He was a man among boys.
Some players that excited me the most to watch:
QB Dan Marino and Jim Plunkett
RB Walter Payton and Adrian Peterson
FB Larry Csonka and Mark Van Eeghen
WR Randy Moss, John Jefferson and Mark Duper
TE Todd Christianson and Keith Jackson
C Mke Webster, Jim Langer and Jay Hilgenberg
G Larry Allen and Larry Little
T Jonathon Ogden and Jackie Slater
DT Randy White, Steve McMichael
NT Bob Baumhower
DE Jared Allen, Richard Dent and J.J. Watt
LB Ray Lewis, Tom Jackson , Jack Reynolds and Keena Turner
S Ronny Lott and John Lynch
CB Dion Sanders, Louis Wright and Lester Hayes
Someone explain how two of the best players on the Bears teams of the 80’s Jay Higenberg 2/7 and Steve “mongo” McMichael 2/2 get passed over for teammate Jimbo Covert 2/2 who only played a 111 games in his career. Are we talking the Gayle Sayers, Terrell Davis, Dwight Stevenson of Left Tackles?? McMichael really deserves in the HOF for his great career at DT?NT. I know Pat and John loved saying his name Jimbo but give me a break. I’m thinking this could be worse than you know who. lol If they’re going to start letting short careers in this is going to be a mess.
not buying your short career argument tony p whats the matter with you
I have been to about 10 NFL games lifetime, and saw plenty of pro bowl, all pro and even a few PFHOFers, but the only one who I saw play and at time realized he was one of the best all time was Barry Sanders. Its really hard watching any one or group of games (unless you have season tickets) to get a sense of greatness of many players, including the so called “non-skilled” positions (I hate that term but only use it as others know what it means), and rare to see a player still truly stand out years later-Barry Sanders was one of those and only one I could really state with strong conviction.
As to short careers, I don’t have an issue with the voters considering players like TD, Boselli, and Covert (although not thrilled over his election) nor do I think that considering those players is somehow going to result in a wave of short-career players not deserving of the Hall in getting elected. The bar of 5 moderns and 1-2 seniors a year – each group having dozens deserving – remains high enough that average or even above average short careers are not getting in and short career PFHOFers will still be far and few between. Frankly its not an issue of great concern for me.
I was never fortunate enough to see Barry Sanders in the flesh which is a huge regret as both him and Bo are my two favourite players ever. I’ve heard more than once that as great as he was on TV he was even more spectacular close up at a game. He was quite simply a genius and it was obvious the first time watching him you were witnessing something truly special. I got that same buzz when I first saw Bo Jackson and Randy Moss.
It’s just a shame we didn’t get to see him play on a dominant team as I believe he would’ve destroyed the record books for rushing on a scale that matched what Jerry Rice did for receiving. Barry’s talent and humbleness deserved better than being stuck with the Lions for a decade. I’m sure the Packers wish they’d drafted him instead of Mandarich. The NFC would’ve been epic with three great teams in the 90s.
I remember the argument’s made on this site against Bob Baumhower, Bill Stanfill, Jake Scott and others who I’ve supported as being players whose career’s were a year or two short. As a fan of these players I’m certainly not against the idea of shorter careers but I’ve deferred to others here who I thought may have a better understanding of what the HOF required. Now I’m hearing something a little different?
I’m not as optimistic Paul. By “mess” I mean it looks like to me like a slippery slope is starting . I was even a little skeptical when Terrell Davis was elected but I said OK just this once. But what the hell are we suppose to think the standard is if it’s the case only 2 great years and 111 games should get a lineman into the HOF? I don’t give a damn if Covert was a 1980’s first team all decade player. He’s probably the weakest pick for that too. Other players have twice the accolades and play 100 games more and their career’s are ignored? :(
IMO, If it gets too unfair a lot of fans who care about NFL’s history will quit caring about their HOF. One more gut punch on this stuff and I’m there with Bachslunch. lol
Let’s hope getting away from this Centennial Panel joke and back to the regular Senior Committee will heal things over. They need to keep hitting the ball out of the park and not make some off the wall selection no one can understand.
Paul, forget what I said before. I’m going to quit being nice. Mistakes have been made. LOL!
Bachslunch will be back with a Vengence !!
I for one don’t consider the BRP or centennial class of seniors to be a “joke” considering that at least deserving seniors got elected, 7 future seniors slots open for others or 5-6 extra seniors then regular senior elections would have hit done or 3-4 extra years of senior elections. It wasn’t perfect of great outcome of 10 solid picks and perhaps fall short of our expectations but I will take results cover the alternative of 1-2’per year. And I don’t think the BRP selection of Covert sets any future precedent for short careers with few all pro selections
One must have a pretty short memory to think that going back to the seniors committee will result in better outcomes, and less criticisms, sure Kramer and Robinson were great picks and deserving but let’s hold committee to its choices over last 20 years. No idea who your top senior candidates are but don’t hold your breath that committee gives you outcomes you like, some of us having been waiting for chuck Howley for 15 years
“keep hitting the ball out of the park” refers to Kramer and Robinson not a long history of great selections. I’m not naive enough to think I will be a fan of every selection but I don’t want to see another Jimbo Covert. IMO Guards and Tackles are two positions that I should have long careers of excellence. That’s why I don’t support Tony Bosseli. That’s out the window now. Covert sets a bad precedent. Boselli has a great argument now and to deny him would seem like a very unfair judgement. This opens the door for many others to think they are deserving now and raise their voices. They screwed up the system. Of course the players selected aren’t a joke but the Panel selecting them can be called that with a couple bad selections. With enough great players left most of us here could do better.
It’s surprising Jim Plunkett never made a Pro Bowl. I could make an argument for him based on Joe Namath’s stats. Plunkett was one of my favorite QB’s to watch but not a HOFer. Tough to say.
Joe Theisman a little closer call for me. He’s got good stats with a SB win, SB lose, 2 MVP’s, one NFL MVP and one AP MVP and an AP Offensive POY. He left slightly prematurely.
“Covert sets a bad precedent.” Again I disagree, I don’t think any of the decisions by the BRP (1/2 members were NOT voters) will have ANY impact on future selections by the seniors committee. As to Boselli (and Covert) neither would get close to Hall consideration without all decade team membership. Yes I know there are problems with all decade team selections, and many here disagree that all decade team should be used as major accomplishment in getting elected BUT it is clear it matters to the current committee of voters. So yes if there are any other all decade team members with short careers they have chance to be considered, but until I see a player elected with short career and a few all pro selections but no all decade team, I am not believing we will see a rush of other short career players.
Plunkett made top 5 in season passing stats once in yards (2nd in 1973) and 2x in TDs (2nd in 1971, 4th in 1974), in early 70s 2 QBs were selected for each pro bowl, and he was not selected. In 1973 and 1974 he had more INTs than TDS, and in 1971 he had 48% completion rate. Pro Bowls are a season achievement and not playoffs so his SBs in early 1980s had no influence on pro bowl selections. So based on his season numbers, even in his best seasons, its not surprising he was never selected to Pro Bowl. In 1971
Considering only 1.5 % of players who ever played, are in the Hall, they have no problem from me adding more who are deserving, short careers or not. The Hall has glaring omissions but can correct it, if the members/ voters just continue to study and do their research but most are biased towards a particular team, which is unfortunate.
Hopefully the two seniors per season will correct more wrongs but we will see …
I don’t think most voters are biased towards a particular team, its more a case of limited slots and varied views on what accomplishments matter the most, how to evaluate players from different positions and eras, and in terms of seniors committee a willingness (or lack of one) to really understand players from pre 1960. Many deserving yet few get in is by far the biggest challenge and issues for the voters.
Been reading about the career of Pittsburgh Steeler Elbie Nickel. I always thought he was a wide receiver but sites on the net list him as a 197 lb tight end … Was he the NFLs first great Tight End ?
He was excellent, playing on piss poor throwing Steeler teams, with over 350 catches for over 5000 yds and 37 TDs, which is more than star Mac Speedie. As a receiver or tight end, he has a HOF case and I think, would be in, had he played for better teams. Ray Matthews, his teammate was also an excellent receiver, as was Buddy Dial, when Bobby Layne joined the Steelers.
If everyone looks at him as being a TE in the early 50s, he was the first great one before Colts Jim Muesheller …
Just curious Brian when your counting speedies stats are you including his aafc stats?
Clark Judge has posted that he has received his ballot for the 2010s all decade team and that they are due by end of March with Hall to announce results soon after
ps we have a new post coming to move beyond 2020 results and have topic to talk about 2021 and beyond
Hall just announced that the 5 moderns + coaches and contributors (10 total, 8 living) will be enshrined at usual annual event on August 8th, centennial class of seniors (10 total, 4 living) at event Sept 18th during NFL 100th anniversary celebrations in Canton. Only living PFHOFers give speeches, but all will get video introductions and revealing of bronze head bust on stage.
Yes Robert The Greatest …
Speedie had more TDs than Nickel only if you count his AAFC, NFL and Canadian stats.
Nickel was definitely underrated and could be considered the NFLs first great TE, though I see him as a wide receiver.
Also, he played with the Steelers for five years under the Single wing offence from 47-51.
His receiving numbers exploded when the Steelers went to the T Formation. Imagine if he had stayed and played with Bobby Layne !
Ok thanks for the clarification brian on speedie my ques is where does nickel rank on senior te’s or wr’s
Frankly had never heard of Nickel nor until now never heard his name come up in any discussions about top TEs from his era or for Hall consideration
Neither have I paul
Yes, you have Robert The Greatest … a clip about Nickel on Youtube has a comment from you under it … from seven months ago … unless its another robert ewing ?
Trust me, if Nickel was considered a tight end in the early 50s before Baltimore Colt Jim Mutcheller, he should be in the HOF. He had over 350 catches for over 5000 yrds and 37 TDs ! In an era that was only 12 games a year.
I read that in a game against Dick Night Train Lane for the Rams in 1952, Nickel ate him alive … he was also a three time pro bowler at a time when Hirsch, Fears, Harlon Hill, Hugh Taylor, Speedie, Lavelli and Howton were the big name stars at receiver.
Even if he wasnt considered a tight end and was more a split end, his career was excellent once the Steelers went to the T Formation.
If any one is interested, individual tickets for the August 8th enshrinement are available for purchase today from PFHOF website. For last several months all you could buy were the expensive single or multiple day packages that in last several years are what the Hall promotes to unexpecting fans, unaware of the cheaper option (made available around March) if you only wanted to attend the enshrinement event. And yep I am not attending, have not since 2010 as it has become too expensive, corporate and crowded for my interest. But I know many fans go, some are regulars, and frankly if you have never been its worth going at least once, especially if you have favorite being enshrined
I may go next year if Drew Pearson is elected.
Think he will be Inducted.
With two Cowboys in centennial class I am not so sure Pearson will be seniors committee pick in 2021, soon after perhaps, but with two others it seems too soon. Gradishar, Branch, Wilsert all seem more likely to be
but to be clear brian that was for the steelers hall of honor not the pro football hall of fame
Yes, but you knew about Nickel more than I did … he has a HOF case.
oh ok
Only time will tell if the door has been cracked open for players with shorter careers.
It’s curious to me that 2/2 Jimbo Covert was selected over 4/2 Joe Jacoby. HOF must think he was better than Jacoby as 2nd Team All-Decade. Now I’m curious how many 2nd Team selections had better accolades the 1st Team players. I still don’t understand how only two great seasons and a short career gets anyone into the HOF. I don’t care if he is 1st Team All Decade. Only shows how weak the field was IMO. If Covert was so great why didn’t he make a Pro Bowl in his last two full seasons? He was 30 when he retired.
Miami’s “Killer B” NT Bob Baumhower 5/1 , sack leader at NT needs to be in the HOF now. He was a great player before he was injured. .
Walter Payton -31 years old – year 10 -GS 16 – 324 rushes for 1,551 yards, 9 td, & 49 catches for 483 yards, 2 td
I don’t think anyone has matched?
They say once a RB passes 30 years old they’re shot. Only a rare few like Emmitt Smith and Walter Payton continue with excellence. For them 33 is the cliff.
John Riggins had his two best seasons at 34 and 35. Marcus Allen was still very effective into his mid 30s.
Payton was 32 and in year 12 for his last quality season. Barry’s final game was at 30, Jim Brown was 29.
Looking at Emmitt from age 31-35 his numbers look quite similar to Frank Gore from 31-36. Good, but nothing spectacular. They’d give you roughly 900-1,000 yards with 3.8-4.0 ypc.
apparently the brp knows better about covert than you tony im getting fed up with people like tony p downplaying covert please stop
There does seem to be a disproportionate amount of debate over Covert, more so than any other recent senior candidate. And to be fair there are plenty of other senior candidates that would seem to warrant discussions over whether they are worthy or not. Really not sure what the point is of making the same point over and over again, but I suppose many of us could be faulted for the same on our “personal causes”. But maybe it’s just me, but the Covert topic seems to be “flogging a dead horse” at this point folks.
Good call on NT Baumhower TonyP …
An excellent player whose career went downhill after the departure of Arnsparger, then injury.
Nose Tackles will never get their due with the Hall despite great players like Smerlas, Henry Thomas, Krumrie, Washington, Baumhower and Ngota. Imagine the practice battles between Baum and Stephensen !
I can understand your arguments about shorter career players. I did commentary about Cecil Isbell on TOFN/ Maven and people disagreed. If he is put in the HOF despite only three quality seasons as a QB, it might open the floodgates.
everyone feel free to join us on the new fresh topic “Hall of Fame 2021 and Beyond” for continued discussions all things PFHOF during its “off season”
I’ve mentioned Covert on 3 or 4 or 5 posts. He ain’t flogged yet. LOL And he ain’t in the HOF yet. Sorry, still trying to understand his selection. Waiting for someone to tell me what I’m missing? Have you seen a picture of the him on FB? Doesn’t look like it could be the same person. In his playing days he looked like Tony Mandarich.
Boknows, Riggin’s is a good example of an outlier. I can’t think of another one that was excellent. We are left to wonder about Jim Brown and Barry Sanders. I assume they would be in the 33 year old category. There have been some productive RB’s later in age like the ones you mentioned. I would add Calvin Hill for his receiving and Darren Sproles but 33 is about the drop off point. Yes, Frank Gore is one who’s still productive. Larry Csonka had his most carries at 33 and a very productive season. I think it helped him get in the HOF. He would of come back for another but Shula wouldn’t give him the $25, 000 more he wanted that would of raise his salary to $250,000 a year. My have times changed. LOL!
It’s true Arnsparger left after SB year in 1984 but not sure if we can be attribute to Baumhower’s decline from All- Pro to Pro Bowl. Did you hear something Brian?
The only NG/NT I know of in the HOF is Curly Culp and it took him a very long time to get in. Yes they are ignored even for PB’s I believe so AP is really good. You have to REALLY stand out. Joe Klecko made AP at RDE and NT so that’s impressive. He’ll probably be the next one if there is one.
Curious that DT Dave Butz 1/1 and Keith Millard 2/2 made 2nd Team All Decade 1980’s over Klecko, Baumhower ,Smerlas and Michael Carter. I think these selectors are sometimes drunk when they make picks. lol Unless they aren’t allowed to pick a NT as a DT?
voters were looking for 1st all decade team members to elect, and include one from the 1980s – its pretty simply to see how Covert got elected, we may mot agree and could make case for many others over him but it you are trying to figure out why he was elected that is the reason, Every 1980s first team all decade player is now in Hall, only Pearson remains from 1970s and Butler from 1990s-and I expect both to be elected in the coming years
Arnsparger left after the 83 season, if he had stayed for the 84 SB, it would have been a lot closer game. All of Shula’s success as a HC, whether Baltimore or Miami, is tied to Arnsparger. When he left after the Dolphins 3rd straight SB in 73/74, the defence again suffered until he came back in 77 or 78, where he developed the Killer B defence.
A defence that shut down the 49ers in 83, Marino’s rookie year.
When the HOF gets around to great assistant coaches/coordinators, Arnsparger, along with Buddy Ryan, Dom Capers, Wade Phillips, and others will be at the top of the list.
Sorry got confused thinking their SB was in 1984 but was 1985 for the 1984 season. Arnsparger couldn’t help them versus the Redskins in the SB or in their 6-8 losing season when they were killed with injuries on the Defense. That SB loss was a tough to swallow being the favorite. Great Defense but I don’t know how David Woodley at QB gets anyone favored. IMO the least talented QB to ever play in a SB. That might of been Shula’s greatest coaching feat although getting his Team inspired to go to three straight SB’s was pretty great.
Going 2-4 in SB’s has sadly taken the shine off the all time winningest Head Coach in NFL history. They leave him off the Mount Rushmore of Head Coaches. IMO only the first SB he lost versus the Jets was a bad loss. Shula hired some great Coaches over the years. Monte Clark was a great OL Coach. OL Coach John Sandusky was with Shula seemed like forever. Chuck Noll a DC for him in Baltimore. Howard Schnellenberger OC and Dan Henning QB Coach. Arnsbarger’s replacement Chuck Studley was a dud and I was never a Tom Olivadotti fan who Shula stuck with until he retired.
What hurt the Dolphins against the Redskins was that huge offensive line with Riggins pounding them and their offence not getting any drives going in the second half. Woodley had some talent but was in over his head. The Dolphins pass defence was excellent but they stayed on the field too long. I think if they could have gotten at least one TD offensively in the second half, it would have been a different game.
Shula is one of the greatest coaches in NFL history but incredibly, some of his QBs worst games were for all the marbles.
1964 … Despite having John Unitas and the best record in football, Unitas and the Colts are shutout 27-0 to Cleveland
1969 … Super Bowl III, Earl Morrall for the Colts has his worst game ever against the Jets.
1972 … Bob Griese for the Dolphins has his worst game ever against the Cowboys …
1973 … Shula, Griese and Morrall finally win it all
1974 … Shula’s last championship
1983 … Woodleys worst ever second half in the SB as Dolphins lose to Redskins
1985 … Marino’s worst game in SB loss to SF
So in five World Championship/SB games, Shula’ s QBs have their worst games … Why ?
I think for some reason, Shula pushed his teams and QBs too hard, and for some reason, they just couldnt respond. Only Griese got the job done, after having a bad first SB.
I think you’re right on the mark Brian with the Redskin OL’s size. Our D wore down in the second half because the Offense couldn’t do anything. Riggins run was so deflating to watch as a Dolphin fan much like Earl Campbell’s run on Monday night. That was one of Griese’s better games in a loss .
If you’re a Dolphin’s fan you have a lot of heartbreaking losses to point to. I hated the way were on the verge of a dynasty only to have it end with the “Sea of Hands” game and Csonka, Kiick and Warfield going to the WFL. Cowboys lost Calvin Hill to WFL. Both Teams went 10-4 the next year. Cowboys amazingly to the SB and Miami were jipped out of the Playoffs by a bad no TD call in the end zone in Baltimore. Wish they had instant replay!!
Not to beat a dead horse because these losses were painful but another brutal loss was the 1985/86 AFC Championship loss to the Patriots.
The Patriot defence matched up well and finally figured out the Dolphin offence and played an outstanding game. Special teams mistakes hurt the Dolphins as well. I think having to come from behind against a physical Cleveland Brown team took a lot more out of the Dolphins than people realize.
I have friends who believe the game was actually fixed, because they thought the Bears were going to be handed the Lombardi trophy but I don’t believe that.
I do believe the Dolphins would have beaten the Bears again in the SB however …
The Bears had no inside coverage for Nat Moore and couldnt get their pass rush up the middle against All World Dwight Stephensen.
Rolling Marino away from Dent was also good strategy like the 49ers did with Montana the year before. I think the Bears would have had a tough time stopping the wide receivers.
Sounds like good analysis. I didn’t remember the Browns game. Barely can recall. The Browns were good and improving. A shame that Team never made it to a SB. That was the Schottenheimer luck. :) Much like Chuck Knox before him. You could say too conservative but Shula won a SB passing 7 times so not entirely fair. Although Shula would gamble on occasion. I’m thinking of a Larry Seiple fake punt for a critical 1st down in Pittsburgh.
No if Byner doesn’t fumble on the goal line or John Elway doesn’t do “the Drive” or other close playoff loses don’t happen. This year’s HOF Head Coach Inductee was damn lucky that Jerome Bettis’ fumble didn’t ruin his Super Bowl run to a win. Without Big Ben’s great tackle there’s no SB. If anyone points to Ben not having a good Super Bowl I’d point to that play. I don’t think Big Ben will have to wait long for the HOF. 1st Ballot?
Thanks TonyP …
As you can tell, I love discussing NFL History …
I collect old NFL games, especially postseason and the Browns had a good team in 85 but Kosar had rookie nerves in that playoff game and the Browns lost a 21-3 lead against the Dolphins and lost 24-21.
Shottenheimer would lose another close playoff loss to Marino and the Dolphins in 1990 with the Chiefs in the WC game … That game, they came from behind at 16-3 and won 17-16.
I think Marty is a HOF Head coach … He lost in the postseason to HOF QBs …
1985 … With Browns lost to Marino
1986 … lost to Elway
1987 … lost to Elway
1988 … lost to Moon and didn’t have Kosar … fired at the end of the season. Another dumb decision by Art Modell
1990 … With the Chiefs, lost to Marino
1991 … Lost to Jim Kelly
1992 … Lost to Humphries of SD, one of the FEW non HOF QBs to beat his team in the postseason, then he went after Joe Montana
1993 … Lost to Kelly
1994 … Lost to Marino … again. Montana retires, so Marty gets another QB from SF … Steve Bono
1995 … Lost to Harbaugh of Indy … only the second non HOF QB to beat him in the postseason.
In 1996, the Chiefs didnt make the playoffs and got rid of Steve Bono at QB … incredibly, Schottenheimer also got rid of promising backup QB, Rich Gannon, who flourished with the Raiders.
One of the few blunders in his career. He would then get another QB from SF in Elvis Grbac …
1997 … Lost to Elway … again
2004 … With the Chargers, lost to Pennington of the Jets … only the 3rd non-HOF QB to beat him in
13 playoff seasons.
2006 … Lost to Brady … Despite a 14-2 season and a boneheaded interception by a safety who then fumbled the ball back to Brady and the Patriots in the divisional playoff … Marty was fired.
So, was Marty Schottenheimer a bad coach ?
Absolutely not …
Was his teams unprepared in the playoffs ?
Absolutely not …
Was his coaching or playcalling bad in the playoffs ?
Yes and No …
Was he snakebit in the playoffs ? Absolutely …
Marty lost to HOF QBs or Coaches in 10 of 13 postseasons … He lost big leads to Dan Marino in the 85 and 90 postseasons because his own QBs faltered down the stretch …
He lost to Elway in 86, 87 and 97, because his teams couldnt handle Elways great mobility at the end of games.
He lost to Kelly in 91 and 93 postseasons because the Bills were a better team in Rich Stadium.
He deserves to be in the HOF along with Chuck Knox and Dan Reeves.
I agree with the Head Coaches you support. I wanted Marty in this year while he still can remember as he suffers from Alzheimer’s Disease. He was a great Coach!
I remember the 1990 Dolphins win over Marty well. That’s when I knew he was snake bit. lol Miami didn’t have a very good Offense but they had Marino and boy was he clutch in that one. KC’s Christian Okoye scared this Dolphin fan to death. The Nightmare crushed us before. hahaha One of my favorite Dolphin wins. :)
I forgot about QB Stan Humphries being in the SB. He was pretty decent though forgettable except to Dolphin fans. I thought 1994 was Miami’s year because the Buffalo Bills were FINISHED! Hahaha right.
What I remember about the Chargers losing to the Patriots, it was their stud kicker missing a 39 yd FG at the end of the game to maybe win the game. I guess we can assume Brady would tie it up with less than a minute but that kicker has to make that kick. It was bad luck!
Yeah, but in that 06/07 divisional playoff, The Patriots were down with minutes remaining, when on 4th down, McCree for SD intercepted Bradys pass, instead of knocking it down, then fumbled the ball to clutch wide receiver Troy Brown of NE … the Patriots then tied the game.
The Patriots took the lead but Kaeding for SD missed over a 50 yrd attempt, at the end.
That 94/95 loss by the Dolphins to SD was a tough loss to because they led I think 21-6 at halftime but in the second half, Natrone Means ran through the Dolphins in a comeback.
I even have a Marino game from that year where he led a 28-0 comeback against Minnesota but Warren Moon won the game for the Vikings …
Didn’t remember that but remember LT’s reaction after the game. He was so upset!! When your team is 14-2 and you score 28 TD’s you probably don’t think you can be stopped. One of New England’s more impressive wins. Never under estimate a Belicheck team. LOL
Brian, I thought you were a Cowboys Fan, did you live in Florida for a while? I’m impressed with your Miami Dolphins history. :) Than again they were a big part of the NFL until 2000. They fell off a cliff right into a toilet bowel where they’ve been swirling around for 20 years. I’m a Texans fan from Texas so now I don’t have to explain why I rooted for Miami. lol
Yes I was a huge fan of the Cowboys up until Dallas got Terrell Owens and Bill Parcels resigned.
By then, I was fed up with Coach and GM Jerry Jones … I have always followed the history of all the NFL teams and wanted Jimmy Johnson and Marino to win in Miami but Marinos’s legs were shot and Johnson couldn’t build a good offense to surround the defense he built.
If you have read other posts I did about Jimmy Johnson, I stated that his biggest mistake in Miami was letting go of Irving Fryar at receiver. The Dolphins tried to replace him with Barnett from Philly and Green as a rookie, but neither produced.
He also couldn’t build a running offensive line because Ruddy wasnt that good at center and Webb was strictly a pass blocker.
What people have to realize is that the AFC East had a very tough division at that time with Parcells building the Jets, the Bills still tough, Pete Carroll trying to win in NE with Parcells/Belichicks defence and Mora revitalizing the Colts with Manning, Harrison, James and Bennett … a tough division for the Dolphins to win.
That 61-7 thumping by Jax in the 99/00 postseason was humiliating for Johnson but Jax had nothing left for the Titans the following week to go to the SB.
Before I was a Cowboys fan in 1977, I loved reading and watching about the Baltimore Colts when I was little. I loved the helmets and uniforms, then loved following John Unitas. I liked Joe Namath as a kid as well and started following coach Weeb Ewbank of both teams who resembled a little league baseball coach I had. I have tremendous respect for the great NFL coaches … Halas, Lambeau, Brown, Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Noll, Knox, Madden, Allen, Grant, Walsh, Flores, Gibbs, Coryell, Parcells, Johnson, and others but if I ever wanted a coach to win it all, my choice would be Weeb Ewbank … the Best Ever Big Game Coach … Still, the ONLY coach to win World Championships with two different teams …
Do you think Owner Carroll Rosenbloom should be in the HOF one day?
It was 62-7 but who’s counting. lol An awful game! I think Marino had two picks returned for TD’s. Helluv a way for those guys to go out.
Dave Wannstedt was a good HC and his Defenses were really good. Replacing Jay Fielder with a young Dan Marino is a nice thought. Did you ever hear the Bob Keuchenberg interview I posted on here? He talked about Marino doing what Marino wanted and he had zero interest in running the ball. A younger Shula would of had greater say.
I don’t know if I can believe that about Shula …
I was under the impression that Shula held ownership stake until the team was sold in 1994.
I wonder if Shula took a financial bath like Robbie with the construction of Joe Robbie Stadium ?
Shula was always in charge but felt Marino’s talent was better suited throwing the football.
The Dolphins had good backs like Tony Nathan but ran them to keep the defence honest.
They tried to find a dominant runner like Sammie Smith but by then, the line was too passive and was only used to pass blocking. Marino and his great release, spoiled his line. If Stephensen had not been injured, their run game would have gotten better.
Other than Ralph Hay, I dont believe any other owners should make the HOF, but with a contributors category, they all, will eventually get in.
Being a Baltimore Colt fan, I will always respect Carroll Rosenbloom but him swapping his team for the Rams and giving it to Irsay was disgusting.
Irsay was not a football man and should have never owned a team. I think Joe Thomas and his football greed, had as much to do with the transaction as anything. He was jealous of Shula getting all the credit for winning in Miami and knew he wanted to find a way to get a team ownership stake as well, and helped put Irsay in place. It might have worked in Baltimore if Thomas didnt overreach his authority but Irsay finally fired him.
If Bert Jones could have stayed healthy and kept the Colts in the playoffs, the whole history of the NFL would be different.
Carroll Rosenbloom like Art Modell will get in but both had ties to Gambling that was swept under the rug by Pete Rozelle. I think if they, or Bud Adams or other owners get in, they should also put in former Jet owner Sonny Werblin who saw the need for a rival league to not only compete with the NFL, but bid the highest for players. He knew more than anyone, that television would eventually control the sport and dictate to viewers, and once he secured the NBC Network for the AFL, the NFL owners knew they had to merge and keep the spending of money for players down.
Werblin not only changed the financial landscape with the signing of Namath but also created the Meadowlands Stadium that housed and rejuvenated BOTH New York franchises …
Bert Jones was a heck of a player and the Colts DL was one of the best. His connection with Roger Carr was dynamite for a couple years. I’m not sure the Colts with Jones would of gotten through the gauntlet of top teams in the late 70’s- early 80’s that included the Steelers, Oilers, Patriots, Dolphins, Broncos, Raiders and Chargers. The AFC was loaded!! Not to mention Bengals SB run. It might of been interesting since the Colts with Jones had a better QB than most of those Teams. Colts had a couple chances. I was rooting for them to beat the Steelers but they got clobbered.
I think Rosenbloom is the only owner to lead two cities to an NFL Championship and the Rams were pretty close to being a 3rd. I think his players always like playing for him but I’ll defer to you on details. That was some good knowledge you dropped. The Rams just needed a good QB. Pat Haden was never going to get the job done. Still them losing to what felt like a patchwork Cowboys team in the fashion they did at home was one of the bigger stunners I can remember ever seeing.
Not to nitpick TonyP because your comments are great but Rosenbloom only won it all in Baltimore, in 58, 59 and 70/71.
He fired Chuck Knox in LA, a dumb move, then hired and fired George Allen, which was another dumb move. I am personally glad however because I thought George Allen was excellent as a color analyst/broadcaster for CBS … I actually want to collect more games he broadcast off Oldtimessports.net …
Then Rosenbloom moves the Rams from the Coliseum to Anaheim … a move that allows Al Davis to move from Almeda County Stadium to the LA Coliseum … the Rams had that SB against the Steelers but choked it away …
A great owner but meddlesome, like Dan Reeves, the Rams previous owner. If Rosenbloom had kept Weeb Ewbank, instead of firing him for Don Shula, the Colts, not the Packers, would have been the team of the 60s because Shula lost too many big games there. The Colts loss was the Jets gain, though it took Weeb, six years to win it all again.
Getting back to Marino with Miami, I believe Marino did what he wanted, throwing the ball but like great throwers before him, including Fouts, Hadl, Namath, Brodie, Jurgensen and even John Unitas, the defense just was on the field too much and never got enough rest to be successful.
No disrespect, but that is why Marino was meant to be a Steeler. Not only did he fall in their lap and was theirs for the taking but had Noll pulled the trigger, Marino would have had no choice but to utilize the run game and his defence. Everything was in place for the Steelers but I think Noll didnt pull the trigger because …
1) The Steelers had already drafted a great athlete in Mark Malone in the 80 draft.
2) Noll personally felt that Marino was more about individual goals than team goals, or just selfish.
3) Noll also felt that Marino needed a change of scenery away from Pittsburgh, to grow I guess
4) Noll wanted to get younger on defence, while replacing veterans.
Good reasons, yes … but when you have a chance to take a home town hero like Marino, you take it.
Especially with Bradshaw aging quickly. Marino could have been ready, just like in Miami.
I firmly believe that if Marino was a Steeler, he would have at least one SB championship.
If Miami couldn’t have gotten him, I wonder who they would have gotten ? Esiason in 84 ?
Of course Shula snatched him up, and Marino beat Pittsburgh the first four games he faced them, including his biggest ever win in the 84/85 AFC Championship game …
I thought I read Rosenbloom was involved in an ownership group with the 1952 Detroit Lions Champions before he joined the Colts ownership. I’m probably mistaken because can’t verify.
ironic he dies and his Rams go to a SB less than a year later. I wonder if his team was inspired by him? Sounds like an impulsive, difficult guy to be in business with.
Ya, many teams made an error by passing on Marino. Kansas City blew it by picking Blackledge. Maybe Marino does better with Steelers early on but their talent was lacking too for a stretch of time. I think Miami was a good place for Marino to throw the ball.
As a Dolphins’ fan I’d say the ’85 Bears was his best game ever preserving “undefeated”. LOL