As the NFL gets set to kick off the beginning of another season with its annual Hall of Fame induction weekend, the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s board made a decision Friday that will affect – and potentially increase – enshrinement classes for at least the next five years.
In a much needed addition, the board added a “contributor” category, meaning owners, broadcasters and others who didn’t play the game but helped the NFL. There will be a subcommittee of voters selected to make the nominations for the new category. The nominees will still need 80 percent support on finalist voting day.
The move will increase to eight the maximum number of total enshrinees for any individual season — five modern-era candidates and then a mix of up to three senior or contributor candidates.
It’ll give guys like NFL Films Co-Founder Steve Sabol, former owners like the late Art Modell and Eddie DeBartolo Jr. former executives like George Young and retired commissioners such as Paul Tagliabue a better chance to earn induction since they will not be compared against modern-era players.
I’m in favor of the move – hugely in favor. There are some folks who deserve to be in who are having a hard time getting traction because of the backlog of players – who should take priority, I would think.
Details are still flowing in – there have been some media posts, but nothing official from the Hall yet that I have found. One detail I don’t understand is that contributors will get two slots every other year, at least for the next five years — I’d be fine with that except it comes at the expense of one of the senior candidate nominees. While I agree that contributors should have their own category, the backlog of senior Hall of Fame player candidates is much longer, particularly since, as I understand it, coaches are remaining in the same pool as modern-era players. Each group will get two selections one year, then two the next. At least off the top of my head, anyway, I can count 20 senior candidates that get regular discussion here at our blog to every three or four “contributors.”
If that’s the case it’s not a perfect change. But it’s a step in the right direction. It’ll definitely put some deserving candidates on equal footing so their cases can be considered when modern-era finalists are – and that is a good thing.
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So starting in 2015 and for five years a total of 8 contibutors will have a chance for election while 3 less senior candidates over that same period will have chance compared to process as existed over last several years
For interest here is list of contributors from 2014 preliminary nominee list, should give good indication of strong future candidates for consideration for election (keeping in mind that anyone can nominate someone to the preliminary list and with their own election process in place many more may be considered starting in 2015). Any moving forward, as with seniors the semi-finalist contributors may not be made public only the names of the finalists sent to the full HOF selection committee for voting at meeting day before Superbowl. And no idea of the timing of announcement of contributors finalists (senior finalists normally made public at end of August, right after senior committee meets and votes)
K. S. (BUD) ADAMS, JR.
BOBBY BEATHARD
GIL BRANDT
LEO CARLIN
RED CASHION
JACK KENT COOKE
OTHO DAVIS
EDWARD DEBARTOLO, JR. (3x finalist)
RON GIBBS
JERRY JONES
EDDIE KOTAL
ROBERT KRAFT
ELMER LAYDEN
ART MCNALLY
ART MODELL (2x finalist)
BILL POLIAN
STEVE SABOL
PAUL TAGLIABUE (3x finalist)
JIM TUNNEY
RON WOLF
GEORGE YOUNG (2x finalist)
This is a terrible idea. Nothing should cut into senior era players. The HoF doesn’t need that many contributors, especially if you’re right about coaches not even being included. They should have just added one permanent contributor slot, or maybe even one every other year, without reducing the senior player slots.
I guess I am in the minority, but I like the idea of rotating between senior and contributor candidates getting 2 spots. Like many of the voting rules that change, this is getting reevaluated within a short time anyway, so it isn’t like this is a completely permanent change. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, the potential incoming senior candidates look to be pretty weak for the next 10 or so years, so I doubt the seniors pool will suffer from a significantly bigger backlog in the near future. There has been talk the last couple of years about completely eliminating the second senor slot, so this beats that alternative.
There are no doubt 15-20 very deserving candidates in the senior’s pool right now, but beyond that most of the guys we typically discuss are borderline candidates who I wouldn’t put in over the top 20-25 modern-era candidates. Aside from LB and S, and possibly OL, there aren’t any positions that have more than half a dozen really big snubs waiting to get in (can’t get on board with WR…lots of hall of very good players, but very few that really stand out above the rest). As much as I like debating the senior players, and making the case for some overlooked players, I have never really felt that the backlog is as large or dire as some posters have described. Since there are only 19 contributors in the hall of fame over the almost 100 years of the league, I think you would have a hard time arguing that they haven’t been more neglected at this point.
I haven’t ever thought about discussing contributors on here, because there was little chance that even the most deserving guys would ever gain traction against the best players. Set apart though, there are tons of GM’s, executives, scouts, trainers, refs, etc. that would enter the conversation. Haven’t had time to do much research yet, but I would guess that there are at least 50 good candidates that you could pick out. The only part I don’t agree with is not including coaches in this category. Including coaches from every era in a vote against modern-era players makes no sense to me, even if the backlog of coaches isn’t that bad.
Any thoughts about likely contributor candidates among those that appeared on the full preliminary list in 2014 as through the new process may led to additional names I was thinking that certainly for the next few years, and perhaps during the entire 5 year “trial period” for this new process the likely candidates would come from that list.
I was thinking that those who made it already as far as finalist could be the first considered, followed by names I know I have heard discussed as candidates in the past:
EDWARD DEBARTOLO, JR. (3x finalist)
ART MODELL (2x finalist)
PAUL TAGLIABUE (3x finalist)
GEORGE YOUNG (2x finalist)
K. S. (BUD) ADAMS, JR.
BOBBY BEATHARD
GIL BRANDT
BILL POLIAN
STEVE SABOL
RON WOLF
Why does DeBartolo merit HoF induction? I know he presided over some SB wins, but what did he actually do, apart from hiring Bill Walsh, staying mostly out of his way, and then being forced out the NFL in a felony corruption scandal?
For that matter why does Tagliabue belong in the HoF? Are they just going to start inducting everyone who happens to chair the league for a while?
I think name recognition and “support” from the writers is what is driving cases for DeBartolo and Tagliabue. But I can also see if the intent is to recognize people for contributions to the game from off the field, then having a 5x SB winning owner (who hired the coaches, signed players and FAs) and a League Commissioner for 17 years who led the league during a time of great growth and expansion considered as top candidates makes some sense and strong cases in the minds of many including voters. I am not sure whether the qualifications of many contributors are equal to, or exceeds those.
And frankly now that their cases are separate from players, I really have no real interest or concern as to whom is elected as a contributor as for me that group really does not enhance the selection process, honor of election and the actual event. My focus remains on the players, especially the deserving seniors.
Whatever impacts the HoF’s quality affects the legacies of HoF players, and “name recognition” isn’t a valid argument for induction. John McVay was the 49ers GM during the glory days. DeBartolo apparently just owned the team, and eventually brought disgrace on himself and it that led to him being forced out Donald Sterling style (except DeBartolo’s offenses were far worse).
Tex Schramm is an example of a HoF contributor. As an active GM Schramm helped build and preside over two decades of winning seasons that relied on multiple waves of players and several different franchise QBs, AND contributed countless innovations to his franchise and the game in general. It was Schramm who struck the deal with Lamar Hunt that led to the NFL acquiring the AFL and created the Super Bowl. He had the Cowboys wear their light colors as their home jersey so they’d stand out more nation-wide, and had the vision to accept the Thanksgiving slot along with Detroit when no other teams wanted it. Schramm initiated the trend of using sexy professional dancers as cheerleaders. As head of the Competition Committee for 23 years he was a fount of good ideas, including proposing moving the goalposts to the back of the end zone rather than the front where they had been for years, having officials wear microphones, widening the sidelines, coloring the 20 and 50 yard lines, and adding wind direction flags to the uprights. Schramm was also instrumental in championing instant replay, and espoused a lot of innovative ideas that haven’t been adopted yet but may still be in the future, like putting a microchip in the ball to definitely determine if it crosses the goal line. He was also largely responsible for creating the NFL combine, since he thought it made sense for teams to pool their scouting resources, and was involved with the Cowboys’ decision to become the first team to use computers in scouting.
That’s a HoF contributor. Now I’ll ask again, what has DeBartolo (or even Tagliabue for that matter) done to merit being placed in such exclusive company?
Again I am not a big supporter of either, but as I posted previously I can see how someone could make a strong case for both of them, not as strong as for Tex Schramm, but just like the players elected to the HOF there is no one consistent standard. But since I am not a strong supporter of either I have no interest in debating the cases.
And I strongly do not agree that any one contributor (or player) elected to the HOF is going to impact the legacy of the HOF or those already elected.
I wouldn’t vote to elect Tagliabue myself, but I feel that his case needs to have adequate discussion amongst the voters. The same holds true for many contributors.
It’s not just one contributor I’m concerned with, Paul, but a flood of guys who might water the HoF down. Or, if there isn’t, then that will be a lot of wasted spots that could have gone to deserving senior players. I just don’t think there enough deserving contributors to justify this move.
As you will see by my previous posts here and on the other HOF topic, I agree with you that giving contributors 8 slots compared to 7 slots for seniors over the next five years is not fair as the pool for seniors deserving of election (20-25) is much deeper then contributors (10-12). And let’s also keep in mind that these are just the selection of finalists, it still remains up to 80% of the 44 HOF voters to elect them and given the history with senior candidates, it is very possible that over the next five years not all selected contributor candidates will be elected as I suspect some voters are also going to question whether some are deserving.
If so I am not concerned about several contributors “watering down the HOF” as 300+ (by 2020) elected out of the tens of thousands who have played or been involved with the HOF is still in mind very selective company. There is already considerable debate about some of the current HOF members, including elections that go back in the 1960s and 1970s, and again in mind those handful of “questionable” elections do not deter from the rich history and quality of members of the HOF.
But there have been far fewer owners and GMs than players, hence at least some concern about what may happen with dedicated annual contributor slots (2 every other year!) potentially watering down the HoF being justified.
Within the next years even at 6-7 total new HOFers elected per year the PFHOF is going to cross the 300 level, so I doubt that by electing perhaps 3-4 or so “questionable” contributors over the next five years that the 1% addition is going to “water down” the entire HOF. However I do agree that the HOF Board should have provided some opportunity for contributors (one every other year?) and not as many as 8 over the next five years, especially at the cost to senior candidate slots.
I always found it funny that somehow electing 4-5 HOFers per year can be called “exclusive” yet 6-8 is not, still seems to me to be pretty limited and exclusive.
Watering down an entire category can have an impact on the overall HoF disproportionate to the category’s size. Regardless, it’s not like even just watering down a category is a good thing. The HoF currently has 19 contributors and only 22 coaches, simultaneously calling into question whether contributors are truly underrepresented (at least compared to coaches) and underscoring how dramatically and quickly that group can grow in percentage terms over the next couple of decades if this policy of having 6-7 contributor nominees every 5 years is continued.
Excuse me, I meant 7-8 every five years.
Well since the HOF stated that the change was only for five years, 2015-2019, I think we should wait until they review after five years before making a judgement that it will continue and thus have a significant impact long term. And as far as we know over the five years the HOF voters may end up not electing all 8 contributor nominees sending a clear message to the HOF Board to reconsider at the end of the five year trial period. Thus the current 19 contributors may end up at less than 27 out of the 300+ HOFers elected by 2019, and under 10% of all HOFers.
And each year the class will still be represented by 5-7 modern/senior players, totaling somewhere between 25-35 more (with a few coaches perhaps included within that number) compared to up to 8 more contributors, looking at it per year, total over next five years, or grand total in HOF, contributors are still only going to make up small portion compared to players/coaches. And it will be those players/coaches that are going to get the media and public interest and attention each election – deserving so.
On the other hand, contributors inducted over the next five years could end up representing over 27% of total HoF contributors, more than a quarter. That’s a potentially enormous relative increase.
I meant up to 27% of total HoF contributors.
Wait, if the two contributor year starts in 2015 (meaning the senior committee will only announce one candidate in the next few weeks?), then contributors inducted over the next five years could make up to 30% of that category’s total, almost a third.
The next five years will look like this:
2015 5 modern+2 contributors+1 senior=8
2016 5 modern+1 contributors+2 senior=8
2017 5 modern+2 contributors+1 senior=8
2018 5 modern+1 contributors+2 senior=8
2019 5 modern+2 contributors+1 senior=8
total 25 modern+8 contributors+7 senior=40
under previous process potential total would have been total 25 modern+10 senior=35, so we are really talking about five more additional HOFers, but I understand clearly that contributors as now their own separate category and election will increase both in number and % elected and in the HOF, which is obviously what the HOF Board is intending. Still even in the “old number years” the majority of those elected will still be players/coaches (6 or 7 out of 8).
Also keeping in mind it is very possible the the full 44 member HOF voters may not select all 8 finalists each year, which has happened to the seniors in recent elections, so the category and complete totals may end up lower
Also PFHOF just released press release officially announcing the change (although media outlets had it Friday), one new fact is that after the five year period, starting in 2020 the slots revert to, and stay at, 5 modern+2 seniors+1 contributor (of course in less the HOF Board makes a change which they could do any year going forward)
I guess it all depends on how you wish to view the number of contributors: by single year elections, the next five year total, or what the total HOFers will be by 2019. Clearly if the HOF Board intends to increase the total number of contributors in the HOF, their elections over the next five years will be higher as there is no other way to increase the grand total in the HOF. I prefer to look at the end result of the grand total of HOFers by 2019 where all elected contributors will still represent only under 10% of all HOFers – a number I feel is satisfactory.
But yes I feel one per year would have been sufficient starting in 2015 and not at the expense of senior candidates where 3 seniors are not going to have a chance for selection until 2020 and beyond when their annual election numbers return to 2. I am sorry to say this but how many seniors will not live to enjoy their election in 2020 and beyond?
Perhaps we need to leave it up to the HOF voters to take the election of contributors just as seriously as seniors and modern candidates and not elect any contributors not worthy rather then simply elect them because they were finalists. And yes I know that is placing perhaps too much trust and faith in HOF voters whom we often already disagree with many years!
I think contributors being 10% of total HoFers would be extremely high. Just think about how few owners/GMs there are in the league compared to players, especially over time considering how long many owners reign compared to how much shorter even great players’ careers are; the ratio is a lot more skewed than 10 to 1! I agree with you about the potential tragedy involved in postponing senior players’ inductions. Maybe I could place more faith in the HoF’s judgment on this matter if I hadn’t gradually come to have such a dim view of it generally over the years.
Rasputin, your definition of contributors is way too shallow. The category is far more expansive than owners and GM’s. It would include scouts, league officials, referees, trainers, announcers, etc. The category can stretch pretty far as it would include any non-player or coach that has ever had an impact on to football.
The fact that there are currently less total off the field contributors than head coaches is in fact the problem at hand. Saying that Tex Schramm should be the minimum bar is like saying Joe Montana should be the minimum bar for QB’s. It’s not realistic. Having these contributors represent 10% of hall of famers is more than fair in my opinion. The halls for other sports generally include at least 1 non player for every 4 players. Very rarely do you hear the argument that anything other than players is watering down those other halls.
Getting a small correction done at the expense of a couple of the 5th or 6th best players at a position over a given decade is in my opinion not a big deal at all. Those are the guys that are watering down the the hall.
Also, I know this is an insensitive thing to say, but a person’s age is not a hall of fame credential. Just because someone is near death doesn’t make their case any better or worse. I dislike when people use this as an argument, because it implies that someone that is dead can be easily passed over, and that sympathy should play a role in the voting process. I want the best people to get in on an objective basis, dead or alive.
I was not using age or health as an argument, just lamenting that it would be unfortunate byproduct of reducing the number of senior candidates over the next five years from 10 to 7 and hoping a deserving candidate does not pass away before the chance to be honored
BSLO, reportedly coaches AREN’T included as “contributors”, and, judging by past discussions here, broadcasters (like Pat Summerall) aren’t eligible for the HoF at all. Currently every “contributor” enshrined in Canton was an owner, GM, and/or NFL commissioner, except for Ed Sabol and Hugh Ray (official supervisor who greatly improved and standardized officiating). The one potential scout candidate I’ve heard about is Gil Brandt, who’s widely considered to be the greatest scout of all time. If they start inducting “trainers” then things would REALLY be getting watered down, lol.
A look at the list of the contributors from the 2014 preliminary nominees should give a pretty good idea, of likely candidates (and their qualifications) for the next five years of elections, Of course now that they will be nominated and selected in their own process some more names are likely to be considered but the upcoming nominations of contributor finalists are probably coming off this list (6 owners, 4 GMs, 4 officials, 2 scouts, 2 League Commissioners, 3 others). So looks like owners, GMs and officials are the most likely finalists.
K. S. (BUD) ADAMS, JR. – Owner – 1960-Present Houston Oilers/Tennessee Oilers/Titans
Founder of franchise and member of the “Foolish Club” as one of original AFL owners. Has been at helm of franchise that claimed nine division titles, 21 playoff appearances, two AFL championships, and one Super Bowl berth.
BOBBY BEATHARD – Team Executive/General Manager – 1966-67 Kansas City Chiefs, 1968-1971 Atlanta Falcons, 1972-77 Miami Dolphins, 1978-1988 Washington Redskins, 1990-99 San Diego Chargers
As a longtime general manager in the NFL, built multiple teams into winners. Collectively, clubs have claimed 10 division crowns, one AFL title, and four Super Bowl championships.
GIL BRANDT – Team Executive/Personnel Director – 1960-1988 Dallas Cowboys, 1995-present National Football League
Vice President of Personnel that helped the Cowboys become one of the most dominating teams in league history. Noted for innovative scouting and personnel systems that are today standard practice in the NFL.
LEO CARLIN – Team Administrator – 1960-Present Philadelphia Eagles
Vital member of Eagles organization and has managed ticket operations for the team since 1960s. Pioneered many innovations in the ticketing industry.
RED CASHION – Official – 1972-1996 National Football League
Served for 25 seasons as on-field official, first as a line judge before becoming a referee, from 1972 to 1996. Officiated nearly 500 NFL games that include 20 postseason contests. Served as referee for two Super Bowls (XX and XXX).
JACK KENT COOKE – Owner – 1974-1997 Washington Redskins
Washington franchise won more than 200 games during tenure as the team owner. The team qualified for the playoffs 11 times and advanced to the Super Bowl four times that included victories in Super Bowls XVII, XXII, and XXVI.
OTHO DAVIS – Trainer – 1971-72 Baltimore Colts, 1973-1995 Philadelphia Eagles
Spent two-plus decades in the NFL as an athletic trainer. Was recognized as Professional Trainer of the Year five times (1977, 1978, 1980, 1981, and 1987).
*EDWARD DEBARTOLO, JR. – Owner – 1977-2000 San Francisco 49ers
During tenure, 49ers captured 13 divisional titles, made 16 playoff appearances, advanced to the NFC championship game 10 times and became the first NFL franchise to win five Super Bowls. San Francisco posted the best winning percentage in the NFL in both the 1980s and 1990s.
RON GIBBS – Official – 1940-1962 National Football League
Served as a referee for 23 seasons in the NFL. He worked every NFL championship game except four between 1942 and 1960 that included one stretch of five straight title games.
JERRY JONES – Owner/President/General Manager – 1989-present Dallas Cowboys
Innovative leader on team and league level. Took over Cowboys in 1989 and quickly transformed team into Super Bowl champions. Under guidance, Cowboys have won eight division, three NFC, and three Super Bowl championships. Guiding force behind concept, design, and completion of the state-of-the-art AT&T Stadium.
EDDIE KOTAL – Scout – 1947-1961 Los Angeles Rams
Regarded as NFL’s first full-time scout, pioneered modern scouting techniques and earned reputation of discovering hidden talent across the country. During service with the Rams, the team won four division titles and the 1951 NFL championship.
ROBERT KRAFT – Owner – 1994-Present New England Patriots
Led dramatic turnaround of franchise and created dynasty team. In two decades of ownership, franchise has captured 12 division titles, six AFC crowns, and three Super Bowl titles. The team’s six conference titles and six Super Bowl appearances are the most of any NFL owner in the Super Bowl era.
ELMER LAYDEN – Commissioner – 1941-46 National Football League
Named NFL’s Commissioner in 1941. Reign came at critical period as America officially entered World War II. Worked during difficult times to maintain the momentum NFL gained in the 1930s.
ART MCNALLY – Official/Administrator – 1959-present National Football League
Spent nine seasons (1959-1967) as on-field official, one year as field judge and eight as referee. In 1968, he was appointed as the NFL’s Supervisor of Officials. Credited with bringing technology to the NFL and implemented in-depth training for official by using video.
*ART MODELL – Owner – 1961-1995 Cleveland Browns, 1996-2011 Baltimore Ravens
Spent 43 seasons of full ownership in NFL. Influential chairman of the NFL’s Broadcast Committee for 21 years. In all, Browns made seven NFL/AFC championship game appearances and the Ravens played in three AFC championship games and won Super Bowl XXXV.
BILL POLIAN – Team President/General Manager – 1978-1982 Kansas City Chiefs, 1984-1992 Buffalo Bills, 1993-94 National Football League, 1995-97 Carolina Panthers, 1998-2011 Indianapolis Colts
Built three franchises into winners. In all, guided teams to 13 division titles, five conference championships, and one Super Bowl victory.
STEVE SABOL – President, NFL Films – 1964-2012
Distinguished filmmaker whose artistic vision helped revolutionize the way fans watch the NFL. Won 35 individual Emmys in numerous categories and in 2003 was honored with the Lifetime Achievement Emmy from the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences.
PAUL TAGLIABUE – Commissioner – 1989-2006 National Football League
During 17-year tenure as the NFL’s Commissioner, oversaw growth of the league from 28 to 32 teams, supported the construction of 20 new stadiums, negotiated successive labor agreements, create league-wide Internet network, and secured the largest television rights deals in entertainment history.
JIM TUNNEY – Official – 1960-1991 National Football League
Served as NFL referee for 32 seasons. Among 29 playoff assignments were ten championship games and serving as the referee for three Super Bowls (VI, XI, XII).
RON WOLF – Team Executive/General Manager – 1991-2001 Green Bay Packers
Orchestrated turnaround of once down-trodden franchise. Under tutelage and excellent drafting of players, the Packers claimed back-to-back NFC championships, three straight division crowns, and a victory in Super Bowl XXXI.
GEORGE YOUNG – Team Executive/General Manager – 1968-1974 Baltimore Colts, 1975-78 Miami Dolphins, 1979-1997 New York Giants, 1998-2001 National Football League
Noted for excellent personnel evaluation knowledge, greatest fame came when turned around the Giants franchise. Under leadership, the team ended long postseason draught by capturing four NFC East titles and victories in Super Bowls XXI and XXV. – See more at: http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2013/9/12/2014-modern-era-nominees/#contributors
Thank you for posting that list Paul. I think that every candidate on there a very good one, and there is a lot of variety. To your point on age, I say fair enough…that’s reasonable. Didn’t mean to be so blunt, but it aggravates me when the media give someone the “death bed push”. I think it’s disrespectful to the nominee and puts the voters in a no-win position. I dislike the fact that Modell and Coryell got pushed while they were of ill health, and have watched their support dwindle like crazy since.
Rasputin, I don’t think I mentioned anywhere that I thought coaches were going to be included as contributors, though I should have elaborated more. My point was that coaches represent just one of many categories of non-players, yet they currently outnumbers every other category in the hall of fame. That is an imbalance that I am glad that they are working on adjusting. I haven’t read that announcers weren’t eligible, though you are likely correct. If so, that’s a stupid rule. Guys like Pat Summerall and Al Michaels had as much to do with me getting into football as a kid as almost any player in the league that I watched growing up.
In terms of worthy contributors, I believe that anyone involved in pro football that has been the best at their craft, or has introduced great innovations to the game on or off the field is worthy, and wouldn’t water things down in any way. Watering down implies adding too much of the same thing, so inducting one or two trainers doesn’t sound unreasonable if the credentials are there. I think the reason that non-owners/GM’s/Commissioners have had a hard time gaining any steam is just because of the voting process. Realistically, no scout is going to jump the entire player queue even if they had a hand in drafting several HOFers and innovated several things along the way. Sabol and Ray, who were absolutely worthy, were total outliers. I am really interested to see if the committee leans on recent preliminary lists for nominees in the next couple of years or decides to go for something outside the box. Even if it’s the ticket guy above, I’d be happy with that.
In terms of the effect on the seniors, if it is only 3 spots being taken away it’s far from an enormous deal. I think the amount of very worthy senior candidates (20-25 as I said above), is probably healthy for the Hall of Fame. The biggest snubs are fairly bad, but if the best guy not in the hall of fame had something like a 5/3 profile, you would have an over-inclusion problem like the hockey and basketball halls face. Having a few obvious snubs keeps the debate healthy, and keeps the process interesting on a year-to-year basis even if it’s unintentional. Very few of the best seniors would be considered to be in the top half of all inductees credential-wise, so I don’t think the hall is facing a quality or credibility problem.
Let’s face it, the Rock n’ Roll Hall of Fame debate has gotten a lot less interesting the past few years since Alice Cooper, Rush and KISS have been inducted. The same would be true if we were seriously debating the HOF credentials of Chris Spielman, Bryant Young and Patrick Surtain 25 years from now.
I don’t have a problem with coaches outnumbering contributors, given their closer tie to the game and higher turnover rate. While I disagree with your apparent endorsement of all those listed above as “very good” candidates and your sentiment that there’s much “variety” beyond owners/GM/commissioner (at least among the most likely candidates), I do agree that broadcasters like Summerall should be eligible, as it’s the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the NFL Hall of Fame, and individuals who have had a significant impact on the game (as Summerall did) should be considered, whether direct NFL employees or not.
Side note: Crazy outside the box thought – I’m not endorsing or saying this is likely, but could the HoF someday consider an historically relevant cheerleader? Could a woman someday be enshrined in Canton without having been an owner/GM?
Fair enough. We will agree to disagree. I’d be fine with a cheerleader eventually being inducted, or a woman in any capacity really. Football has traditionally been a tough sport for a woman to be prominently involved in since there really aren’t any women-equivalent leagues out there. That said, if you are eliminating any GM/Owner roles from consideration, cheerleaders would seem to be the path of least resistance right now.
The fact that a woman was invited to the combine last year, that Becky Hammon has become the first female coach in major professional sports, and that there are currently multiple women in high-ranking front office positions suggests the tide may be turning. If I had to pick someone who I thought might be a good candidate for 1st female in the pro football HOF right now, it would probably be either Amy Trask or Dawn Aponte.
Trask unfortunately is out of the NFL now, but Aponte has been working in the NFL since she came out of college, holds a top executive position on the Dolphins, and is still only in her mid-40’s. Also, unlike other high-profile women like Katie Blackburn and Rita LeBlanc (nothing against them at all), nepotism has had nothing to do with her rise in the NFL. It has been pure hard work.
Another side question Rasputin. You have mentioned that you don’t support Ed DeBartolo Jr. for the HOF in part because of his legal issues (and I am assuming salary cap violations). I would probably put him in based on the fact that he quickly turned around a floundering franchise and led them to 5 Super Bowls in 23 years, however I think that his greatest accomplishments were simply that he did it at a young age for an owner, he hired Bill Walsh and he created a great environment that encouraged intense loyalty from his players. Nothing revolutionary, but the success his teams had is hard to ignore. His legal issues have nothing to do with football aside from having to give up his team, so I will keep them out of the conversation.
My question is about Jerry Jones…he has definitely innovated more considering the marketing prowess that he introduced to the NFL, and certainly keyed a quick turnaround for the Cowboys in the early 90’s with 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. However, aside from that he has mostly just made one great head coaching hire, violated the salary cap and held back several potentially great teams with micro-management and poor GM decisions.
I would induct both personally, but don’t really see an argument for one, but not the other. I am interested to hear your opinion, because you have something of an affinity for America’s team.
Jones, in my opinion, has not done enough to warrant being inducted. I’d find it quite repugnant, really. Yes, he’s been somewhat of an innovator. But he’s mostly a media whore who can’t get enough face time on television to satisfy himself. He had little to do with the three Super Bowl wins other than hiring the right coach, he ran that coach off and he has spent the last two decades pretending to be a general manager, driving the team to mediocrity in the process. Basically I think he’s an egomaniac and a narcissist whose contributions are, for the most part, overblown.
Well since anyone, including HOF voters, can nominate someone for the preliminary list and there are no limited of the number on that list (including number of contributors), I think we can safely assume that when the newly established contributors committee meets and starts with 15 semi-finalists to consider they will end up with pretty much the same list to work from. At this moment I certainty can not think of others, especially any with qualifications as some on the 2014 list of contributors. And I suspect when it comes to the two selected each year as finalists we are going to see some pretty familiar names, starting with those who already were finalists in previous years:
EDWARD DEBARTOLO, JR. (3x finalist)
ART MODELL (2x finalist)
PAUL TAGLIABUE (3x finalist)
GEORGE YOUNG (2x finalist)
Just like the seniors committee that has not been shy about returning previous candidates voted down before as moderns or seniors, back onto the finalist list, I am thinking this committee will do the same. For the first few years of this new process I am not expecting any big surprises as to the two contributor finalists as I believe the HOF voters who pushed for this change, and the HOF staff and Board, clearly are looking to get those contributors in the HOF whom they deem have been blocked by the HOF voters understandable preference to elect players over contributors.
Great list above, Paul — thanks for posting that. I can think of a couple more names in the news lately that might garner some consideration: Pat Bowlen, who I think is tied with Kraft for most SB appearances, and Jerry Seeman, who last month became the first official to have his number retired by the NFL.
I personally think that Art McNally and Seeman are the only officials who have any chance of actually being inducted. However, if the committee really starts looking at them, there are several who have similar cases to Gibbs, Cashion, and Tunney. Jerry Markbreit, Norm Schachter, Pat Haggerty, and Bob McElwee come to my mind — I think all or most of those have been on the list of preliminary nominees in past years.
Also worth noting that the HOF voters selected Debartolo, Young and Tagliabul for the semi finalists of 25 last year
BSLO, to answer your question, like most Cowboys fans I’ve tried to push the thought of Jerry Jones’ potential HoF induction out of my head until and if he wins another Super Bowl. Regardless, what a circus that would be. Would he introduce himself with a grandiose speech, thanking himself for all he’s accomplished? Or perhaps Rich Dalrymple would present him. That said, Jones has been a dominant force on the competition committee, built a revolutionary stadium, and was GM during a Super Bowl dynasty. His direct innovations have mostly been business/league related, and his guidance of the franchise has seen it become the most valuable professional team in American sports, which is especially impressive considering the team’s extended period of on the field mediocrity. As unpopular as it may be to praise him, he’s done a lot of things right. Plus that alleged “salary cap violation” was garbage. There was no violation as the salary cap had been lifted. The alleged rule was secret and “unspoken”. The Cowboys and especially the Redskins were screwed over by a case of corrupt collusion reportedly driven by the Maras. In fact I would have preferred Jones make a truly big fight over the sanctions that might have broken New York’s unhealthy stranglehold over the league once and for all, instead of just moving on after going through the motions of appealing through a rigged process.
I’m not exactly clamoring for him to be inducted into Canton any time soon, but Jones is at least as deserving as DeBartolo, and probably more so. What did DeBartolo do apart from hiring Bill Walsh and getting out of his way? DeBartolo wasn’t even GM.
I also haven’t seen much of a case for Tagliabue’s induction. He presided over the league’s growth from 28 to 32 teams. Whoopty doo. Football has been on an upward popularity trend for several decades, and the incremental improvement that occurred during his tenure had nothing to do with him. Though I’m not sure how much he had to do with it anyway, I see the creation of the salary cap and other factors that brought about parity during his tenure as marks against him if anything, not for him. I hate parity. Football quality has declined in recent years for multiple factors (like not tackling in practice), but parity and rapid roster turnover are among them. Even the best teams now have holes, and I don’t think we’ve seen a truly great NFL team since the Cowboys dynasty. Certainly the HoF stands for excellence, a value contrary to the principles of parity and mediocrity.
I’d rank both DeBartolo and Tagliabue near the bottom of Paul’s list, though, as has been well documented, the HoF voters and I frequently don’t see eye to eye.
As to Jones, I think his “work” as the GM over the last 10+ years (some bad drafts, better some better lately, and very questionable FA signings) has really hurt his case for the HOF and doubt he will ever be taken seriously in the near future unless some how the Cowboys get back to the Superbowl soon.
whats the thoughts on gil brandt
I’d support Gil Brandt’s induction. If we’re to put any scout in the HoF it should be him.
Given that Brandt was among the contributors on the 2014 preliminary list, I would say that under this new process he has a very good chance at election within the next five years
I would guess that for 2015 the first two contributors to be selected would be DeBartolo and Tagliabue, my selections would be Young and Brandt as in my view the GMs/scouts play a more important role on the success of a team over a long successful period then any owner, official or commissioner, and both Brandt and Young (along with Beathard and Polian) had long successful runs of 20 years+ each.
If contributors are going to get elected I hope over the next ten years if the HOF is going to elect eight contributors that all four of them get in at some point and in any order.
Gil Brandt, Bobby Beathard, Bill Polian and Steve Sabol should all be locks. I hope these are the first four that get in the HOF.
I also have never understood why someone like Carroll Rosenbloom doesn’t get more mention for the HOF.
I hope this new process doesn’t last too long because there’s only so many contributors that belong in the HOF, especially at the expense of senior nominees.
Rick Gosselin is also unhappy there’ll be a reduction in the number of Seniors candidates in the next five years.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/columnists/rick-gosselin/20140808-gosselin-hof-hopes-for-drew-pearson-other-cowboys-senior-hopefuls-took-hit-last-week-…-here-s-why.ece
Link won’t connect but you can find the article by googling:
Rick Gosselin Drew Pearson Hall of Fame
Some more very interesting comments including those from Dave Goldberg, who recently retired after 20 years as a Hall of Fame voter.
http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/memo-to-hall-dont-cut-seniors/