In news that will likely satisfy (assuming a positive vote in February) many regulars here at Zoneblitz, Kansas City Chiefs Safety Johnny Robinson was announced as the Senior Candidate for the 2019 Pro Football Hall of Fame on Friday. Despite a career that included seven Pro Bowls, six First-Team All AFL/Pro selections, a Super Bowl championship and selection to the All-Time AFL team, this will be Robinson’s first time as a senior candidate for the Hall of Fame. Robinson was a finalist six times during his initial eligibility window, the final time in 1986.
Robinson was drafted 3rd overall in the 1960 NFL draft by the Detroit Lions, but decided to play for the Dallas Texans (later the Kansas City Chiefs) who had also drafted him in the first round of their initial draft (the details of which are a bit cloudy, as far as where he was technically selected). He spent his first two seasons playing flanker for the Texans, before moving to safety in his 3rd season. After suffering a career ending injury on December 25th, 1971, he retired in 1972 with 57 interceptions, and was the all-time winningest player in AFL history.
Senior Finalists for the Hall of Fame are chosen by a special Seniors Committee, made up of nine veteran members of the overall Selection Committee. A list of candidates is compiled including carry-over nominations from the previous years, first-time eligible candidates, and nominations from any outside sources. Through a mail ballot, the list is reduced to 15 Senior Finalists, and a rotating sub-committee of five of the nine members of the Senior Committee meet in Canton, Ohio, to choose the finalist.
The Senior Candidate will be forwarded to the full Selection Committee, along with a Contributor Finalist two Contributor Finalists (chosen in a similar process) for final vote, prior to the committee narrowing the list of 15 modern-era finalists to the final five along with up to five modern-era candidates. The seven candidates at that stage are given a final yes/no vote.
The last Senior Finalist to not be elected to the Hall of Fame was Dick Stanfel in 2012–after being previously rejected in 1993–who was finally elected in 2016. Prior to that, Claude Humphrey was given a no vote in 2009, then elected in 2014. The last Senior Finalist to not be elected to the Hall of Fame was Marshall Goldberg in 2008, after being previously rejected in 1979. The last Senior Finalist to not be elected to the Hall while being the only Senior Finalist (from 2004-2014, two Senior Finalists were selected each year, to relieve some of the backlog of deserving candidates) was Jerry Kramer, in 1997. Kramer was enshrined in the Hall of Fame earlier this month.
The Contributor Finalist for the Class of 2019 is expected to be announced later next week. Final voting for the full class of 2019 will take place and be announced on the Saturday before the Super Bowl.
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Thanks for the update and new post Tony. And if you would like help, I am willing to assist by adding the occasional new PFHOF topic (especially during the “off season”).
And one clarification to this statement “The Senior Candidate will be forwarded to the full Selection Committee, along with a Contributor Finalist (chosen in a similar process) for final vote, along with up to five modern-era candidates. The seven candidates at that stage are given a final yes/no vote.”
Actually the senior and contributor nominations are forwarded to the full voting committee along with the 15 modern candidates. The Senior and contributor nominees are discussed first and voted on separately and individually (each needing 80% support from the 48 voters). They are not considered with or voted on with the moderns. The committee then discusses all the 15 modern candidates who are then subject to votes for final 10, final 5 and approval of the final 5.
I agree that Robinson was a strong and well deserving selection, that will have strong support from most posters here as well as others familiar with the history of the league and of the PFHOF-and yes by the voting committee.
As to the contributor nominees to be selected this Thursday (August 23rd) looks like the 2 candidates will come from a group consisting of Pat Bowlen, Robert Kraft, Gil Brandt, George Young, Steve Sabol, Art McNally, and Bucko Kilroy. My prediction would be Bowlen and Brandt, with McNally as a possible “sleeper” pick,
And I think it will be very interesting and unknown territory moving forward with the future of the senior candidate. First, with the class of 2019 nominations the 5 year “trial” period of alternating 1-2 slots between senior candidates and contributors ends. So the PFHOF Board will need to revise the election rules to address procedures for electing those positions for 2020 and beyond (may have already made that decision at their meeting a few weeks ago, but yet to announce). Will them choose to keep with the rotation, or fix seniors with 2 slots and contributors 1 slot, will they add coaches to the contributors group? Second, what about the proposal to have a special larger class of seniors in 2020 in celebration of the 100th anniversary of the league? Views on social media, including from some voters and others familiar with the Hall, seem to suggest support for such an idea is mixed at best. Guess we wait and see what decisions are made.
And yes it does appear that the last two elections including Kramer and now Robinson have cleared out candidates that have often dominated the debate regarding the senior candidates, and would appear that Howley (with his 5x 1st time all pro selections-anyone not in the Hall already with that number?) is next in line. But certainly public opinion-and social media-discussions are divided among apparently at least strong public support for several others, most notably Bronco fans for Randy Gradishar but also for several Raiders, Roman Gabriel, Joe Kleco, Ken Anderson are also names often mentioned (but I am not so sure such pressure or in some cases social media “outrage” really impacts the voters. Will be interesting to see how Howley fairs in coming years and other selections by the committee.
Paul – Thanks for the clarification–I knew they weren’t voted on with the moderns (or at least that the moderns had no direct impact on the Yes/No of the Senior/Contributor), I just thought they waited until the moderns were narrowed down to the final five before they actually voted on the Senior/Contributor.
Thank you to Tony for creating a new thread.
No problem Tony, the voting for the seniors (and more recently the contributors) has always been to treat their discussion and voting separate and first, before moving on to the 15 modern finalists. This way the seniors/contributors get their own focused debate and dedicated vote since they already went through a selection process to finalists via subcommittees before the election meeting day before the SB and their election is not viewed as against the moderns or impacted by that process.
Just to note in the paragraph Paul highlighted that there will be two Contributor finalists and eight (not seven) finalists in total.
And yes, Paul is spot on to mention the Seniors/Contributors are discussed and voted on first before the debate even begins with the 15 modern era candidates.
You are spot on as usual Paul what I would like is the seniors to have their own class and their own inductions what do you guys think
Thanks guys, I’ve updated the post (I think I have it right now…well, I hope).
Robert, I would actually be against the Senior Candidates having their own class/induction–they should be shown the same level of honor as the modern-era inductees, and even though some may think their own ceremony would be singling them out even more, I suspect just as many (if not more) would feel that they’re being downgraded somehow. I’d have less of an issue with doing Contributors in this fashion for some reason, although I also don’t think they’d get nearly the turnout for something like that, so they may as well keep it together.
I agree with Tony that including the seniors (and contributors) on stage at the same event with the moderns is the best way to give all the equal honor and recognition.
Now if there is a special larger class of seniors (10?) in 2020 for the 100th anniversary of the league (rumor and speculation with mixed views whether it will happen or not), the Hall will have to likely come up with a separate event as no way they can get 15+ through one single event that already takes 3+ hrs for 8 inductees!!!
And does anyone know now that with Robinson likely elected, if another player besides Chuck Howley has 5 or more 1st time all pro selections and is not already in PFHOF?
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/all_pros_first_team_career.htm
Peyton Manning leads the way with 7 (and will be in, obviously).
Alan Fanaca, Tony Gonzalez, Shane Lechler (active), Joe Thomas, and Jim Tryer have 6.
Lavvie Dilweg, Ox Emerson, Larry Grantham, Chuck Howley, Steve Hutchinson, Riley Matheson, Jimmy Patton, Ed Reed, Del Shofner, Zach Thomas, Kevin Williams, and Patrick Willis all have 5.
Williams is a good one…can’t remember if we’ve discussed or not–is Kevin Williams an eventual HOFer? I’m a Viking fan, and as much as I enjoyed watching him…I probably wouldn’t have said yes…but I also wouldn’t have guessed he had 5 first team All-Pros.
thanks! I had seen that list but forgot where to look for it.
So in terms of current senior candidates: Jim Tryer (6) then at 5: Lavvie Dilweg, Ox Emerson, Larry Grantham, Chuck Howley,Riley Matheson, Jimmy Patton, Del Shofner. Interesting to consider how the seniors committee would rank those 8 candidates, not sure if Tryer will ever be considered and Shofner may have used up his chances, which would leave us with 7. I know Dilweg, Emerson, Grantham and Patton have been in the discussion (along with Howley), although one may wonder if time has passed by the chances for Dilweg and Emerson-perhaps same for Matheson (who I have not heard of discussed) and I have read some concern regarding pre 1950 all pro selections as inconsistent.
So perhaps that leaves us with Larry Grantham, Chuck Howley,and Jimmy Patton???. Having played the most recently (and a SB MVP), Howley would be more widely known among fans and the voters, may give him the edge over the others? Thinking must be a hard case to make for the pre 1950s players on this list among both the seniors committee but also the full voting committee.
Certainly if the PFHOF is seriously considering an expanded special class in 2020 most of these 8 would be ideal candidates if intent is to highlight best players across the entire 100 yr history of pro football not already in the PFHOF (and not just a bunch of selected seniors from 1950s to 1980s). And would help clear a backlog of pre 1980s seniors from the pool of candidates, opening up future annual selections for more recent seniors and more to join the pool in coming years.
Thanks for the new story Tony!! There’s been lots of passion shown for Johnny Robinson for years on this website and it’s an awesome feeling it’s that it’s finally coming to fruition.
I would think Chuck Howley and Maxie Baughn would be the logical next choices. After that the Committee could say “we’re big Al and we hit dingers!” LOL I wonder if two players playing essentially the same position have ever been nominated in a given year as a Senior nominee? I doubt it.
Thinking about players on the top of the list I’m a little surprised Randy Gradishar didn’t make it in before Robert Brazile. Less flashy but IMO a better all-around player. I hope Gradishar gets in soon.
Also after further evaluation, I don’t think I fully support Larry Grantham’s HOF nomination anymore. Maybe I’m wrong but I think getting recognized as the best in the last half of the AFL years carries more weight for me. No doubt he was a very good player especially for his size and had supreme intelligence and was vital to the Jets D. Still I’m not sold.
Here’s my wish list buy who I think is deserving scenario. I’m batting 1000 with Johnny like most of you guys but that won’t last with this list. lol
1. Johnny Robinson
2. Maxie Baughan
3. Chuck Howley
4. Randy Gradishar
5. Al Wistert
6. Duke Slater
7. Lemar Parrish
8. Alex Karras
9. Jim Tyrer
10. L.C. Greenwood
11. Cliff Harris
12. Harold Jackson
13. Drew Peason
14. Bob Kuechenberg
15. Jake Scott
16. Dick Schafrath
17. Otis Taylor
18. Isiah Robertson
19. Cliff Branch
20. Roger Craig
Just wishing. lol
21. Bob Baumhower
22. Mark Duper
23. Mark Clayton
24. Bill Stanfill
25. Nat Moore
26. Manny Fernandez – Sooo underrated “From 1968 through 1973 Fernandez was voted as the Dolphins “Outstanding Defensive Lineman” even though Pro Bowlers like Bill Stanfill and Vern Den Herder were on the same line.” Should of at least shared SB VII MVP with Jake Scott. He played the game of his life with 17 tackles and 1 sack from the NG position. Rated 10th best all-time performance in a SB by Yahoo. “The MVP was selected by Dick Schaap, the editor of SPORT magazine. Schaap admitted later that he had been out late the previous night, struggled to watch the defense-dominated game, and was not aware that Fernandez had 17 tackles.” lol
” I wonder if two players playing essentially the same position have ever been nominated in a given year as a Senior nominee? I doubt it. ”
Not so far, and I do think the seniors committee makes a conscious effort to rotate their selections across different positions and eras. For example when nominating two candidates they would go 1960s OL and late 70s/early 80s LB. Same for back to back years, going with a 60s DB this year. If the senior committee has two selections again next year for class of 2020 (PFHOF Board has yet to announce future policy for selection of seniors and contributors as trial 5 year rotation ends with class of 2019) I would look offensive player (QB/RB/WR) plus a DL or LB from different eras (pre 1970s, and 1970s/80s)
It was interesting to find out that although the election procedures call for a finalist list of 10 (or 15?), this year the selection committee had 23!! to consider (and apparently some “new” names), guessing that number is function of 9 committee members voting for finalists and apparently causing several ties for the final slot. Of course we do not know who any of the 23 were but guessing we could all come up with most of them. And we have no information on series of votes down to 10, 5 and which candidates made those more selective lists.
My sense (depending on what the future rules are for senior candidate selections, how many each year, rotation with contributors? larger class of 2020?) that the gap has closed leaving a large number of candidates grouped closer together then in past leaving a real guessing game as to sequence of future selections along those we now are under consideration.
Chris Hanburger and Les Richter were senior candidates in the same year and Both played LB. Interestingly, one of the two the hall of fame advisors that year was Jack Ham, another LB, who apparently spoke very highly of Hanburger saying he was told by his coaches to model him play after him. Certainly helped get him nominated. Probably didn’t hurt Richter either
Good pick up there Justin on Hanburger and Richter as two LBs selected as seniors in same year. Sure does seem to be large number of 50s-70s LBs (and 50s-70s DBs) in the seniors pool, suppose we could again some year see two selected from same position. For me really have to wait and see what the senior election rules will be for 2020 and beyond before trying to sort out rankings going forward, just seems like with Kramer and now Robinson that the field has opened up (or closed up??) with less separation (and less agreement??) on whom is most deserving next. Would seem to be that Howley is a favorite among many folks, I am just not so sure that the voters feel same way-their favs split among many different candidates (as evidenced by the 23? finalists considered for 2019 class senior nomination).
And yes a larger special class of 2020 seniors would really provide opportunity to completely “reset the field” if 10 or more were put into the Hall-especially if many came from the pre 1980 periods (especially pre 1960s), would have to think Howley would be included in such an effort.
now if an expanded class happened next year how many per decade?
At this point I don’t think anyone knows how a special larger seniors class in 2020 would be determined, not sure by decade would work as 2000s and 2010s would not be included. My proposal would be 5 selected for 1920-59 and 5 from 1960-89.
i would back that one paul 5 from 20-59 and 5 60-89
I’m also hoping for an expanded Senior class for the 100th year anniversary, but they could easily nominate two for each decade and not have any bad choices. For example:
20s: Duke Slater, Lavvie Dilweg
30s: Verne Lewellen, Ox Emerson
40s: Al Wistert, Mac Speedie, Riley Matheson
50s: Billy Howton, Billy Wilson, Bobby Dillon, Dick Barwegen, Duane Putnam,
50s-60s tweeners: Jimmy Patton, Abe Woodson, Jim Ray Smith, Joe Fortunato
The thing is that if you do have a large senior class, you’re still probably going to have a nice logjam afterward. If you induct the 10 most deserving seniors, you have dozens more who are also snubbed.
Well as we are all aware there are perhaps 80+ deserving candidates in the senior pool and no special class of 2020 regardless of any reasonable size to be expected (10-15?) is going to solve that completely. But it would save perhaps 5-10 years of elections that can then be used to address others remaining. Bottom line is the senior pool would be much better off with a special large class than without one. Personally I would hope that the 10-15 selected would include the best (and perhaps last elected) of the pre 1950 era and then very best well deserving and longest waiting of the 1960s-1980s era.
And I do like the idea of two per decade but would add 1960s, 70s and 80s. The moderns in the class of 2020 from 1990s and 2000s could represent those decades in celebration of the 100th anniversary of the NFL in 2020.
Agreed with the two-per-decade being ideal. I purposely left my post off at the 50s-60s tweeners because of the earlier posts suggesting that one per decade during the 20s-50s would be sufficient. I don’t agree.
Not sure if two per decade is ideal but hard to figure out how best to select the seniors. Seems to me that there are more top qualified deserving seniors from 60s and 70s than from the 30s and 40s. I know that there are a large number of all decade team members from 30s and 40s not in the Hall but there are some major questions and issues with the 30s and 40s all decade teams, including in some cases as many as 6 or 7 players at a position-I am just not sure they all are PFHOFers. It why you hear about the 60+ all decade players not in the Hall, the large all decade teams from 30s and 40s. I am thinking if the Hall does a larger special seniors class they will be looking at some selection that is representative across the history of the league and not dominated by players from any one or two decades.
If they did two per decade, many of the following would be snubbed:
Chuck Howley
Maxie Baughan
Eddie Meador
Billy Howton
Del Shofner
Cliff Branch
Harold Jackson
Cliff Harris
Bobby Boyd
Randy Gradishar
Bobby Dillon
Jimmy Patton
Dick Schafrath
That’s a lot of deserving people who should all be in Canton. I mainly want the players in their eighties to be here for their induction. Robinson will turn 80 in September.
I give the Senior Committee a lot of credit. They nominated Kramer, Brazile and now Robinson. All of them were/are A+ choices, three of the best in the senior pool. Let’s hope they keep this going.
Reality is that if it is done, and that’s still a big IF, many deserving seniors will still be left in pool but annual selections, hopefully 2, will continue with 10-15? fewer competitors
Bowlen and Brandt just announced as 2019 contributor finalists! I go 3/3 for 2019 nominations so far! First time ever!
On another note 2019 contributor nominees: Pat Bowlen Gil Brandt
Wow!!!
Just saw it confirmed by Peter King on Twitter. Bowlen and Brandt.
Honestly, this is perfect. If I would have wanted any two to have been nominated today, it would have been Bowlen and Brandt, and if there’s anyone I would have wanted nominated last week, it would have been Robinson.
Both the Senior and Contributor Committees knocked it out of the park.
Also, for any of you who have Twitter, Broncos fans were rather vocal last year when Beathard was nominated over Bowlen and about equally as upset when Robinson was nominated over Gradisha. Hopefully this satisfies them, too.
Bronco fans will never be satisfied, still complaining today that it was too late to elect Bowlen and still insisting Gradishar would have been better pick over Robinson and then there is Atwater, Karl M, Lynch, and even with Champ B very likely elected as well in 2019 they still won’t be happy. They are convinced that the Broncos are underrepresented in the hall due to an anti west coast or mountain bias among the voters who detest the entire franchise. They are totally clueless about the process, challenges with many more deserving candidates then slots, and that many players and teams are underrepresented and in some cases took decades to resolve those issues. They are a hopeless bunch to try to explain any of this to.
I’m okay with Gil Brandt getting a nod, though it’s been fairly pointed out at the PFRA Forum that Brandt’s run in the draft during the latter part of his career was less than distinguished. Still, the first half of his tenure in Dallas was commendable. He’s also alive and very old, so that’s reasonable.
Pat Bowlen doesn’t get my juices flowing, though if you think he’s deserving, now’s the time to get him in while he’s alive and hopefully semi-cogent. I’m less than taken with his DeBartolo style attempt to circumvent the salary cap, especially. Both Robert Kraft and Ralph Hay strike me as more deserving. But the former is in good health for now and the latter is long deceased, so they can wait a bit.
I’d really like to see the very elderly and very deserving Art McNally get tapped next tome around, myself.
Also agreed with Paul that Broncos fans really need to get a grip when it comes to the HoF. I’m not convinced Bowlen is an utter no-brainer HoFer, though it’s a moot point now. They are right about Gradishar, Mecklenburg, and Atwater, but I’d prefer to get the far older and very deserving Chuck Howley and Maxie Baughan in first (not to mention other incredibly old deserving types like Billy Howton, Bobby Dillon, and Del Shofner fast-tracked in). Atwater does have some more eligibity left, though they need to move on him pretty soon. Unfortunately, they also squawk about guys like Dennis Smith, Tom Jackson, Rod Smith, and Tom Nalen, who really don’t have any kind of HoF argument. They need to get a filter, and badly, like some Raiders fans do (the ones who whine about Dave Dalby and Jim Plunkett and Tom Flores).
Agreed Bachslunch, Bowlen would not have been my first choice but I get the nomination as is deserving and very electable. Also Art should be next. But we wait too see what Hall Board does for number of senior and contributor slots (and are coaches added?) for 2020 and beyond since five year trial period is now done.
From 2020 onwards, Kraft and George Young would appear to be next in line as the number 1 choices for owner and GM respectively.
Even if they do back to 1 Contributor nominee per year and two Seniors I’m not sure there’s enough depth in quality for this category in the long term, especially if they don’t add coaches which would really help the candidacy of Coryell and Jimmy Johnson.
McNally would be my choice for 2020, and I just hope he’s still with us as he’s approaching his mid 90s. Kraft won’t have to wait long either. Outside of Tagliabue who is consistently rejected and perhaps also Ernie Accorsi, nearly everyone else worthy of nomination is deceased.
i can understand completly about bowlen bachs i totally agree and paul you also brought up a great point with denver broncos fans
If there isn’t a large senior class for 2020 and just the standard two, who would you like to see?
I would nominate Howley and Baughan, with any of Gradishar, Howton, Shofner, Meador or Dillon also being worthy selections.
Agreed with corey
Corey, great list. As deserving as Gradishar is, he’s a fair bit younger than there others mentioned, so I’m fine if he waits until after the rest get in. Howton and Dillon are 88, Jim Ray Smith is 86, Shofner is 83, Howley is 82, Meador is 81, and Baughan is 80 — and as of right now, I think they’re the oldest living good Senior candidates out there. Gradishar is 66.
While Gradishar is younger, I cannot help but come to the conclusion he is still one of the most deserving players in the senior pool.
If we go by age, Howton and Dillon are next, of which I’d be very pleased. If we go by who is most deserving, Howley is 5/6, while Baughan’s nine Pro Bowls have waited too long.
Baughan was to the 1960s was Harold Jackson was to the 1970s. Both got egregiously snubbed from the All-Decade Team, and in turn, both are missing from Canton, and unjustifiably so.
I’m beyond thrilled Robinson was finally nominated, and I cannot commend the Senior Committee enough for nominating Robinson in addition to Brazile and Kramer for the Class of 2018.
The fact that these aforementioned seniors are still waiting is the best argument for why we need a large senior class, or if not, why the seniors need to go upper tier again if it’s just two.
Agree with y’all on Bowlens. No problem with Brandt getting his due. I’m still trying to figure out the timing of Jerry Jones. I’m sure someone will explain to me. lol Gradishar should be in. I’d only put Howley and Baughn before him. IMO age doesn’t matter for the rest. I’m back on the fence with Meador.
I see Howley, Baughn and Gradishar in that order, but then for me getting Kramer and Robinson elected and resolving the most serious grievances, has in my view created a real open field with many deserving candidates close together. So much so that I think the committee will have wide range of views moving forward. Also thinking more 1980s candidates are going to get attention perhaps at expense of the pre 1950 candidates quickly being lost to history. Ignoring any possible special larger class for 2020 I think future senior candidate elections just got much more unpredictable
Haven’t these always been unpredictable, though?
Been more predictable in recent elections but I get your point
Exactly. You cannot say for certainty what was going to happen.
How could anyone have predicted Robinson was going to be nominated this year? We all knew he was deserving, but there were no guarantees.
Who could have guessed Kramer would have been nominated two decades after being a senior nominee while Stanfel gets it a second and third time, while Humphrey gets nominated for 2009 and 2014?
Could you have guessed for sure Stanfel and Stabler would have been nominated while knowing that a recently deceased player would not automatically be th precedent?
Easley gets nominated, then could you have guessed Kramer and Robinson would follow suit? Dave Robinson gets nominated. Were you expecting Ray Guy and then Tingelhoff?
Of course, it’s wonderful that Kramer and Johnny Robinson got nominated, but both should have been elected decades ago, and it’s also tough to pinpoint patterns because there is a rotation.
If we have a large senior class or if we have the standard two next year, you don’t know who’s going to be nominated. None of us do.
I think all of us can agree Howley is at or near the top, but if he gets nominated, none of us knows for sure. The same goes for the other seniors in their eighties.
Ok admittedly I was overly optimistic regarding voting trends for the senior candidates as yes they have been deserving for decades and focus of much attention here for years so perhaps the final election of Kramer and Robinson was not indicative of a change in senior candidate voting but instead an eventuality that should have occurred years ago. Regardless my main point was that with those two out of the pool it presents an open field and resets for many, including us here, consideriations of whom it next best deserving. A discussion I would suggest is wide open of options for us and the voters.
So, assuming Robinson is elected? Who would all of us have as the most deserving Senior? For me, it’s Howley.
Howley for me also corey i could post my updated seniors list of anyone would like to see it
Howley would be at top of my list but I just get this feeling that the seniors Committee is not as enthusiastic as rarely have I heard his name supported via public comments by the voters especially one key person who in some respects should be advocating for Howley but never seems to
Yes, Robert. That would be appreciated. I need to update my Senior list, too. I had Robinson No. 1, Kramer No. 3 and Brazile No. 10. I’ll post mine later.
The following is a list of HOF finalists who have never been elected ranked by the number of times they were finalists. Those marked with an asterisk have remaining eligibility in the modern category:
Bob Kuechenberg – 8
Johnny Robinson – 8 (counting his upcoming senior nomination)
Charley Conerly – 7
LC Greenwood – 6
*John Lynch – 5
Lester Hayes – 4
Paul Tagliabue – 4
*Don Coryell – 4
*Clark Shaughnessy – 3
Mac Speedie – 3
George Young – 3
Joe Jacoby – 3
*Alan Faneca – 3
Gene Lipscomb – 2
Duke Slater – 2
Ken Anderson – 2
Art Modell – 2
Randy Gradishar – 2
Marshall Goldberg – 2
*Edgerrin James – 2
*Isaac Bruce – 2
*Kevin Mawae – 2
*Ty Law – 2
*Tony Boselli – 2
Beattie Feathers – 1
Rosey Grier – 1
Tony Morabito – 1
Jim Tyrer – 1
*Blanton Collier – 1
Lee Roy Jordan – 1
Lou Rymkus – 1
Willie Galimore – 1
Donnie Shell – 1
Cliff Harris – 1
Jim Marshall – 1
Roger Craig – 1
Jimmy Johnson – 1
Everyone Walls – 1
*Steve Atwater – 1
*Steve Hutchinson – 1
Not counting those with continued modern eligibility, there are only 15 candidates who have been finalists more than once and not ultimately elected: Kuechenberg, Robinson, Conerly, Greenwood, Hayes, Speedie, Jacoby, Lipscomb, Slater, Anderson, Gradishar, Goldberg, Tagliabue, Young, and Modell.
Hopefully, Robinson gets elected this year, decreasing the number to 14. Of those 14, Young is almost certain to be nominated by the contributors (likely next year). Modell and Tagliabue probably have very little likelihood of being elected soon. That leaves the following 11 senior candidates that I have listed below from most deserving to least deserving of induction:
1. Greenwood
2. Kuechenberg
3. Slater
4. Gradishar
5. Speedie
6. Hayes
7. Jacoby
8. Anderson
9. Lipscomb
10. Goldberg
11. Conerly
For me, the first 5 will definitely be inducted, likely sooner rather than later. 6-8 have strong cases and likely get inducted eventually. 9 (Lipscomb) is the cut off for me. I think he belongs, but I under the the argument against. I see no compelling case for either Goldberg or Conerly (despite his being a finalist 7 times). I’m interested in everyone else’s thoughts.
Of course, there are also a couple great candidates who were only finalists once like Donnie Shell and Cliff Harris. And tons of guys who were never able to get in the room: Pearson, Branch, Baughan, Hill, Klecko, Dillon, Howley…
My Updated Seniors List
1.Chuck Howley
2.Al Wistert
3.Duke Slater
4.Maxie Baughan
5.Randy Gradishar
6.Verne Lewellen
7.Lavern Dilweg
8.Riley Matheison
9.Ox Emerson
10.Walt Sweeney
11.Mac Speedie
12.Ken Anderson
13.Ed Budde
14.L.C.Greenwood
15.Drew Pearson
16.Del Shofner
17. Bob Kuechenberg
18. Cliff Harris
19. Cliff Branch
20. Winston Hill
21. Jim Tyrer
22. Otis Taylor
23.Alex Karras
24.Dick Schafrath
25.Donnie Shell
26.Joe Jacoby
27.Gale Gillingham
28.Jim Covert
29.Roman Gabriel
30.Pat Fischer
Nice list Justin. Just one name you’ve missed out is Ole Haugsrud, while Jimmy Johnson should have the asterisk instead of Collier.
I make it five of the Seniors nominees historically have yet to be elected. They are Haugsrud, Goldberg (twice), Rymkus, Speedie and Gallimore.
A further 6 Seniors nominees who were rejected the first time have since been elected at the second or third attempt. They are Lou Creekmur, Henry Jordan, Dick Stanfel (3rd attempt), Jerry Kramer, Bob Hayes and Claude Humphrey.
Justin’s list of just 15 names (12 players and 3 contributors) highlights that the vast majority of those who have been finalists more than once do get elected. Robinson should make it only 14.
Looking at the finalists from 2010-15, the only finalists from those six years who have yet to be elected are Art Modell, Paul Tagiabue, Don Coryell, Jimmy Johnson, Roger Craig and John Lynch. So two contributors, two head coaches and only two players, one of whom (Craig) is now included in the Seniors pool.
Thanks Justin for your list putting things into better context and great point of unpredictability Corey.
In his profootballtalk column today PFHOF voter Peter King mentioned that there was strong support for both Bowlen and Brandt at the meeting last friday, suggesting full elections should not be an issue. He mentioned George Young, Robert Kraft, and Art McNally as strong future contenders (no surprises there). King also remains a strong supporter of Paul Tagliabue but understands the issues and challenges with his election. And from an interview with Joe Horrigan from the Hall, King indicated that the idea of requiring semi-finalists to sign an agreement to attend (which first came from PFHOFers at their annual private luncheon event) was never seriously considered by the Hall and is not being pursued further.
Fake News to get clicks and it worked. lol Why do you suppose Art Modell isn’t being considered? And folks must really dislike Carroll Rosenbloom for him to never be a Finalist.
Fake news to get clicks???
Plenty of people including voters hold the Cleveland move against Modell, he may get in someday but guessing that will be hard to overcome. As to Rosenbloom, until the contributors category, the last few decades have been really hard for non players to get elected as voters struggled to set aside a deserving player for an off the field candidate. For all we know he was a finalist considered by the subcommittee as well as Modell. Longer contributor category stays round would greatly improve odds for both to be elected
Thinking both have been hurt by long term preference of voters to choice players over off field candidates but both could very well be in final ten contributors discussed this year. Guessing Modells move of the Browns is impacting his case for election among voters but likely both eventually get elected as contributors
Modell, and any other owner, won’t get a look until Bowlen and then Kraft get inducted. If the Hall of Fame has been anywhere outside of Ohio it might’ve made Modell’s election a little bit less contentious.
From Peter King’s article it’ looks likely we’ll see Young, Kraft and McNally up next. Hopefully Steve Sabol’s name will be put forward too. Any other names that haven’t been mentioned? Ralph Hay?
Agreed about modell and the hall of fame i also agree on the next group of contributors
Art McNally gets a lot of love but Pat Haggerty was a line Judge and referee during the same time frame. McNally was more distinctive for sure but i always thoutht games were properly officiated when Haggerty was at the helm.
My updated complete senior candidate rankings:
LB – Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
LB-Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
OT-Winston Hill NYJ 6/8/60s
CB/S – Eddie Meador RAMS (4)//6/60’s
DB-Jimmy Patton NYG 5(1)/5/60s
LB-Larry Grantham NYJ 5(5)/60s
OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s
LT – Jim Tyrer KC 6/9/60
FB- Pat Harder CHI/DET 3(3)/2/MVP/40s
F-Mac Speedie CLEV 6/2/40s
WR-Del Shofner LAR/NYG 5/5/60s
FS – Cliff Harris DAL 4(1)/6/70s
LB-Joe Fortunato CHI 3(3)/5/50s
F-Otis Taylor KC 3/3/60s
DE – L.C.Greenwood PITTS 2/6/70’s
DT – Alex Karras DET 4(5)/4 60s
WR-Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s
CB – Lester Hayes OAK 1(5)/5/80s
LB- Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7
WR – Cliff Branch OAK 4/4
DL Joe Klecko NYJ 2/4
HB-Beattie Feathers CHI 30s
OL- George Christenson DET 30s
FB-Bill Osmanski CHI 1(1)/3/40s
OL-Walt Sweeney SAN 2(4)/9/60s
OG-Ed Budde KC 2(2)/7 60s
F-Lavvie Dilweg GB 20s
G-Ox Emerson DET 30s
G – Bob Kuechenberg MIA 2/6
T- Joe Jacoby WASH 2(1)/4, 80s
QB – Ken Anderson CIN 1(2)/4/MVP
RB- Roger Craig SF (1)/3/80s
LB- Mike Curtis BALT 2/4
OL-Riley Matheson CLEV 5
T- Duke Slater CHI
OL-Dick Schafrath CLEV 4/6
S- Donnie Shell PITT 3(1)/5
And yes I take a 100 yr view of the league history and place significance (perhaps one could argue too much) on multiple all pro selections and all decade team selections. I will also acknowledge that assessing value of all decade teams from 20s 30s and 40s is hard as many have large numbers of members, no all pro or pro selections to backup selections and realizing those all decade teams were not selected until 50th anniversary of league in 1969, but for pre 1950 you have to start with something to determine deserving players.
If we’re talking on-field referees for HoF consideration, am thinking it’s tough to beat a couple of suggestions made over at the PFRA forum:
Ron Gibbs (head official for 16 pre-SB NFL title games, a record)
Jerry Markbreit (head official for 4 Super Bowls, a record)
Ron Botchan (umpire)
Mick Kelleher (back judge)
bachslunch how does one access the PFRA forum?
Here’s the link I have for the PFRA forum:
http://www.profootballresearchers.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5
Good List Paul, but is there room for others? Would you consider:
1. Harold Jackson
2. Tommy Nobis
3. Houston Antwine
4. Rick Casearas
5. Gene Brito
6. Jimmy Patton
7. Deron Cherry
8. Pete Retzlaff
Future HOFamers that I saw this weekend and why they have already cemented their case.
Adrian Peterson- Turned back the clock with an incredibly strong performance on the ground, and even had one of the longest pass receptions of his career. Looked extremely fresh, wonder if he will hold up through the whole year.
Rob Gronkowski- Was a beast catching the ball and blocking for his backs.- The best TE these eyes have ever seen
Aaron Rodgers- Adds to his list of great comebacks…and he did it with 1.5 legs!
Drew Brees- Unfortunately his team played zero defense, but he can sling it with the best of all time!
Khalil Mack- Too early to call a surefire HOFamer but he he was dominant as well.
I think we can add Von Miller too – 3 sacks, 2 forced fumbles and 1 fumble recovery.
Frank Gore needs 15 yards rushing to pass Curtis Martin into 4th place all-time.
Vinatieri moving a step closer to Morten Andersen.
Brady and Brees both on 491 TDs. Who will get to Peyton’s 539 first? We’ll likely have to wait until next year. Brees needs just over 1,000 yards to break Manning’s career yardage mark.
I hope Von Miller and JJ Watt both have two more completely healthy and dominant seasons..then they would both be surefire HOFamers.
Vinatieri is already going to the HOF.
Gore is starting to resemble more of the Curtis Martin’s and Jerome Bettis’s and is leaving behind the Fred Taylor’s, Corey Dillon’s and Steven Jackson’s.
Not so sure JJ watt needs any more dominant seasons, sure a few more good seasons would help, but as it stands right now there is no way a 3x consecutive DPOY is not getting in
If JJ’s career ended today, he would have the fewest games played of any defender in the HOf in the last 60 years, that is why he needs a few more healthy campaigns imo.
Oh I agree that he needs more seasons (only has 5 full seasons to date), I just don’t think those seasons need to be dominant. Even if he never makes all pro selection again but retires with 10-12 seasons he will still have 4/4/3xDPOY/2010s? profile-pretty impressive PFHOF qualifications
J.J. Watt has been a remarkable DE when healthy but as a Texans fan I still can’t say yes he’ll definitely make the HOF if he he stopped today. I’d like to see it happen. IMO he’s a better player than Jason Taylor who got in recently but will J.J. be viewed as groundbreaking as a Gale Sayers, who knows? I will say when I see Fred Dean in the HOF I say hell ya Watt should be in. lol
Modern Era Nominees out http://www.profootballhof.com/102-modern-era-nominees-for-the-hall-of-fames-class-of-2019/
I just finished watching Super Bowl V (the first 3 quarters exist on Video (last quarter only Audio). Chuck Howley had one of the best performances on defense ever in a Super Bowl. I know that doesn’t make a career (that was exceptional too.) I really hope he gets a senior nomination soon!
Who in the world keeps nominating Thomas Everett, Chris Samuels, Chris Warren and Bill Bates? Does anyone notice any omissions?
Only four first-time eligibles this time with Reed, Gonzalez, Bailey and London Fletcher. All bar Fletcher are slam dunk HOFers.
Chris Samuels was a 6-time Pro Bowler and even though he won’t get any further I’ve no problem with him being included on the prelim list.
Rod Smith and Jimmy Smith both missed out this time after being on the prelims last year and I’m not quite sure why Jason Elam is the only kicker to be named when Gary Anderson, Nick Lowery and Jason Hanson all missed out.
Thankfully both Steve Smith (the other one) and Ferrell Edmunds didn’t make the cut this time after last year’s nominations had everyone scratching their heads.
The preliminary list is always an odd step as anyone can nominate a candidate, so you get some weird inclusions and yet some missing names (Rod Smith?) as there are no limits to total nominations or by position and open call for nominations. Of course silly additions or strange omissions really are not that critical since they would not make next cutdown to 25 semi finalists at next step in November.
I strongly believe that Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith, Gary Anderson, Nick Lowery, Kent Hull, and Ben Coates should all be on the prelim. list
Whoops! Hull is on it, missed him when I was looking at the the list
Even though anyone can nominate someone for this list, I am always intrigued by the omissions. I don’t think there’s anyone omitted this year that had a realistic chance of making it to the final 25, but I would call the following players “snubs”:
QB: Boomer Esiason, Drew Bledsoe, Rich Gannon
RB: Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis
WR: Jimmy Smith, Andre Rison (Rod Smith is in fact on the list)
TE: Ben Coates, Keith Jackson, Jeremy Shockey, Steve Jordan (final year as a modern era candidate)
OL: Nate Newton, Jim Lachey, Jeff Saturday, Olin Kreutz
DL: Michael Dean Perry, Ray Childress, Trevor Pryce, Steve McMichael (final year as a modern era candidate), Charles Mann (final year as a modern era candidate)
LB: Pat Swilling, Joey Porter, James Farrior, Greg Lloyd, Hardy Nickerson
DB: Carnell Lake, Darren Sharper (though I know why he’s excluded…)
K: Gary Anderson, Nick Lowery – probably the weirdest omissions since they are always on the preliminary list
P; Rohn Stark
Coach: Chuck Knox, Blanton Collier, Buddy Parker, Mike Shanahan
I’m also very surprised to see that only 4 first-time eligible players were nominated (and no coaches). Aside from the 4 that were included, I wouldn’t say there are any future HOFers in the group, but I’m still surprised we didn’t see any of the following get a nomination:
David Akers
Andre Gurode
Brian Waters
Chris Snee
Asante Samuel
Nnamdi Asomugha
Mike Shanahan
On a side note, I hadn’t commented on the Senior or Contributor nominations yet, but I think it’s hard to say that the nominated committees could have done a better job. Robinson, Bowlen and Brandt were all outstanding nominees!
A few others to miss out include:
Warrick Dunn (definitely better than Warren)
Irving Fryar
Shaun Alexander and Clinton Portis have been included this time after being omitted in 2018.
There are 19 returning semi finalists with Reed, Gonzalez and Bailey as locks to make it 22. So we’ll see at least 3 names from last year’s prelims list being promoted.
PS: Kreutz is on the prelims list. But there’s a clear Top 4 among OL before Kreutz or anyone else gets a look in.
Yea and those last three semi finalists are akways hardest to predict
These are my HOF priority picks from the players being considered from each position:
None from QB
Corey Dillon RB
Isaac Bruce WR
Tony Gonzalez TE
Mike Kenn OL
Neil Smith DL (Leslie O'”Neil close 2nd – Seymour HOVG)
London Fletcher LB (Zach Thomas close 2nd and Mecklenburg HOF as Senior)
DB’s are loaded with greatness in this order –
Champ Bailey
Ed Reed
John Lynch
Ronde Barber
Darren Woodson
Ty Law
Eric Allen
Steve Atwater.
None from K/P but I would put Jason Hanson in the HOF before Vinaterri is eligible.
None from ST’s
Marty Schottenheimer Coach.
This is the last year as a modern era candidate for Mecklenburg and Kenn. Is there anyone else?
Edge James appears to be the next RB to be enshrined. If he’s elected within the next few years it’ll be interesting to see which of the large group of RBs on the prelims list can make a breakthrough to the Top 25.
I’d like to see Dillon too be that guy before Adrian Peterson and Frank Gore hit the ballot.
Perhaps it is just me but not a big fan of Dillion (4x pro bowl) as I see him lumped in with several others including Fred Taylor, Steve Jackson, Jamel Lewis and Shaun Alexander-all have their strengths but creates logjam by the voters when considering so many RBs with similar numbers at same time.
I think once EJ is elected, it may be until Gore and Peterson are on the ballot before we see another RB elected. Especially since current and future ballots at going to be loaded at WR, OL, DE, and then the current soon to retire QBs. With only 5 modern slots a year, RBs are going to left out.
More and more I see the voters placing weight on all decade selections and as long as we have a back long of numerous non RBs from 1990s and 2000s teams still not elected, especially OL, DE,. LB and DBs-with several appearing on ballot in next few years (and yes I know Lewis and Alexander are 2nd team 2000s all decade team members), that is where the focus of voting is going to fall over the next several elections.
Agreed with Paul re Corey Dillon. Very good player, for sure, but he ended up with 11241 career rushing yards and never made an all pro team of any kind (0/4=none). He’s got neither enough to qualify as a compiler or peak guy. Just don’t see it for him, sorry to say.
does it really matter if he never made an all pro team or the fact he was neither a complier or a peak guy i think were just nitpicking sadly
I was just pointing out the no all pro selections because looking at who is making it in as modern candidates that would be a major barrier to his election. When there are all decade team members with multiple all pro and several pro bowl selections waiting, then with only 5 slots a year I don’t see a path for him
I have to agree with bachslunch and Paul on Dillon. He played in an era with a lot of great RB’s, where several players had excellent, but short peaks and while his career numbers still look pretty good, I don’t think he ever was even a top 5 RB in the league except for possibly in 2004 (his first year with the Patriots). He only finished in the top 5 in rushing yards twice and top 5 in rushing TDs 3 times, and never finished in the top 2 in either. He also wasn’t much of a threat as a receiver, which hurts him in an era where guys like LT, Edge, Watters, Barber and Holmes were big threats as receivers and all were arguably better than Dillon as rushers.
Edge is definitely the best RB from his era that isn’t in, and to be honest I’d be fine if he was the only inductee from the late 90’s/00’s era. I think Ricky Watters would definitely be the next guy up, but he’s borderline for me. I think his part of his resume is that it doesn’t have a glaring weak spot. Like Dillon though, he lacks the peak of many of the other best backs from his era, and I think that will ultimately do him in.
Beyond Edge and Watters, I’d put Barber, Alexander and Holmes right about even. They all had great peaks and were each at one point the best RB in the league, but none of them won a Super Bowl or had enough sustained success to be serious candidates in my eyes. After those three, I would likely put Eddie George, and then probably would slot in Corey Dillon ahead of guys like Jamal Lewis, Fred Taylor and Clinton Portis.
I think it will be tough to get any of Watters, Barber, Holmes or Alexander in during the modern era vote, so I would be surprised if DIllon’s name came up as a serious candidate even in the senior’s pool during my lifetime.
Mecklenburg and Kenn are the only serious candidates in their final year of eligibility, but this is also the final year of modern-era eligibility for Sterling Sharpe, Mark Bavaro, Steve Jordan, Max Montoya, Steve McMichael, Charles Mann, Vaughan Johnson and Dennis Smith.
I think at some point Mecklinburg might get some serious consideration from the senior committee, but I wonder if Mike Kenn, Sterling Sharpe or Steve Mcmichael ever will. No one mentions McMichael too much but he had a spell as a dominant DT and was always disruptive even when he wasn’t getting the attention that Hampton, Dent and the Fridge received.
Sharpe and Mecklenburg would be quality additions to the seniors pool and likely receive consideration, but as I always caution that pool is deep and getting nominated is far from certain as evidenced by players with multiple first team all pro and all decade team selections still waiting in there for decades.
Did anyone catch the letter that Eric Dickerson put out on behalf on fome HOFamers? It sounds to me like he is asking to be paid for previous services and (or) wearing the gold jacket. I understand why he (they) might want some medical coverage (that has already been settled) but come on…you don’t get paid for an honor!
I have to be honest, between the Terrell Owens deal and this letter I’m starting to get turned off a little bit, and this is from someone who loves the NFL and have so since i was a little kid.
Dickerson and his “board” consist of 12 players-out of over 150+ living members and he is now asking for $300,000 per year plus full benefits including health care for each PFHOFer or their beneficiaries, and somehow this also advances cause for better pensions and lifetime health care for all players??? Plus blaming NFL and NFLPA neither of which controls the PFHOF. Although I agree with the issues he is raising, his demands are unrealistic and his approach and message are terrible ( Rice and Warner had to ask to have their names removed from initial letter as were used without their permission) . I think his board is a fraud and he is making a mess out of attempt to address some important issues while dragging unwilling PFHOFers and the Hall into a public relations disaster. And Dickerson already does not attend enshrinement including this years
Yes Bill, Dickerson’s over the top rhetoric and threat is not helpful but his cause is a worthy one and should include many other players of lesser accomplishment. This cause needs to be addressed by DeMaurice Smith and the NFLPA in the next contract discussion. IMO the players of today must fight for the players of which they stand on the shoulders and are one of the reasons they are able to get paid buku dollars.
Tomlin – 12 yrs 178 games 116 61 1 .654 Playoffs 15 8 7 .533 1 SB win – 1 SB loss
Intriguing question to me with the some of the perceptions that have followed HC Mike Tomlin. If he ended his coaching career today is he a more worthy HOF pick than HC Jimmy Johnson?
Johnson – 9 yrs 144 games 80 wins 64 losses 0 .556 Playoffs 13 9 4 .692 2 SB wins
Corey Dillon played for years on one of the worst teams in the NFL getting very little exposure. Also his hammering running style wasn’t sexy to watch but “Clock Killin’ ” Corey’ s toughness and intensity made him a GREAT rusher of the ball. Dillon had to make many of his holes himself and only had one OL Pro Bower which was in his last year with Cinncy. Dillion did have enough moves to set the single game rushing record. Look at what he did at age 30 when most RB’s drop off a cliff. 345 carries 1635 yds 12 Td’s 4.7 avg. 109.0 yds per game.
I think very highly of Corey Dillon. How great would he have been on the Broncos or Giants during the time frame in which he played. Those teams knew how to run the ball and his style would have fit perfectly with them. For the exception of Willie Anderson, the Bengals line was awful.
I loved Eric Dickerson as a player…not so much as a retiree! I don’t mind his stance on protecting former players, I don’t like how he is using his Hall of Fame stature. If he is fighting for that cause, shouldn’t it be for all NFL players, not just HOFamers so in that regard, I agree with Tony.
Of course this is from a guy who helped land SMU with the death penalty while accepting payments in College!
“Yes Bill, Dickerson’s over the top rhetoric and threat is not helpful but his cause is a worthy one and should include many other players of lesser accomplishment. This cause needs to be addressed by DeMaurice Smith and the NFLPA in the next contract discussion. IMO the players of today must fight for the players of which they stand on the shoulders and are one of the reasons they are able to get paid buku dollars.”
I agree that his cause is a worthy one, but there are right ways and professional ways (including actually representing all PFHOFers) to take on the NFL, NFLPA, and PFHOF that would be actually effective and garter positive media and public support, in contrast to the amateur bungled efforts of Dickerson which are only hurting the important causes: consideration of paying appearance fee to PFHOFers to attend events at the Hall, and improved pensions and health care for all players. Sending out a letter representing a “board” that he created-was not voted and elected by PFHOF members – and including names of now at least 3 PFHOFers (Rice, Warner and Brooks) without their permission has made this a PR mess for all players and PFHOF members he claims to be advocating for. I really feel for those PFHOFers and former players who rightly deserve more, including debate and discussion on these issues that are now getting lost in the PR mess Dickerson himself created. Floyd Little commented today that he will not boycott PFHOF events as he has made more as a PFHOFer then he did in his playing days-has Dickerson ever talked to him and the many other members in similar situations? Has the PFHOF membership as a whole meet to discuss their concerns and how best to proceed? Yes makes me mad and frustrated at Dickerson for making such a mess of this and throwing away any chance of public and media understanding and potential support to address these causes.
“Intriguing question to me with the some of the perceptions that have followed HC Mike Tomlin. If he ended his coaching career today is he a more worthy HOF pick than HC Jimmy Johnson?”
One key difference (regardless of what Jerry Jones says or believes) is that Jimmy J built those Cowboys SB teams-including one he did not coach-I am not so sure Tomlim has ever had that same role or influence with the Steelers. Thus in my view JJ is the more deserving PFHOFer and I have no doubt will be elected soon, before Tomlin and many other coaches.
Didn’t realize Dickerson was demanding salary from the chatter I first heard yesterday. I’m definitely NOT for developing a special pension system after the fact. I’m for taking care of former players with a great insurance that lasts their lifetime. I believe the NFL and NFLPA should want to do that much,
I don’t mind Dickerson as a TV personality but he definitely comes across as an opportunist and when he played he wasn’t above being a diva. That said, when you’re that good I can see how you might get a big head.
His “letter” was little vague with mixing demands for salaries and benefits for PFHOFers, as first step to improving pensions and health care for all players. His statements in last few days have expanded that idea for PFHOFers to receive a $300,000 annual salary plus benefits for every PFHOFer (essentially making them paid staff) and also advocate for those broader needs of all players-still making the claim that those improvements for PFHOFers will help make case for all players (????). I don’t like his approach, creating his own board, serving as a non-elected or appointed “representative” of all PFHOFers, and using PFHOFers names without their permission, I think his grandstanding and amateur approach has really hurt his efforts and destroyed any chance of media or public support what are some important issues needed to be addressed for PFHOFers and all players. My anger is that he is hurting rather then helping them by his antics.
And I would support paying an appearance fee to all PFHOFers to attend HOF events or represent them at other events, and certainly support efforts to improve pensions and lifetime heath care for all NFL players (which MLB players already have). I just don’t think his approach is effective or professional especially when taking on major media and PR savvy organizations like the NFL, NFLPA and PFHOF-you really need to be organized and have sound PR strategy which he clearly does not have.
Dickerson will be on Fox Sports’ Speak for Yourself on Friday. Both Wiley and Whitlock dinged Dickerson on their character evaluation of him. Jason said he’s been friends with Dickerson for years and he’s greedy. LOL
If Dickerson had invested his payments from SMU more wisely he wouldn’t need a “money-grab” at every opportunity!
Could be Bill. lol Dickerson brags about taking money while at SMU often. No shame and if the United States gave away reparations to Blacks for slavery; he’d likely be in that line too, lol He’s about getting what he thinks he’s owed which is all he can squeeze out of a situation. He’s never been bashful about it. :) We’ll see tomorrow if he eases his position after getting push back. lol He came out of his dispute with Jeff Fischer looking OK but Fischer flat out blew it as the Rams HC.
Don’t forget, the whole reason he was traded from the Rams to the Colts was due to his numerous holdouts and contract disputes. so enough of that! Dickerson has reminded me of some great Rams from the 80″s. Does anyone think Dennis Harrah or Nolan Cromwell will ever get Senior nominee recognition?
I just listened to Dickerson who did a lot of fast talking but still comes across as greedy. I especially don’t get the HOFers being tired of being exploited when they show up every year. I didn’t realize they were treated so bad.
I’m a no on both Cromwell and Harrah. Bachs likes Cromwell and says he looks good on film study.
Does anyone think Packers 1/6 Clay Matthews is a HOFer?
Nope
I think I like Cromwell too..maybe down the line. Currently Clay Matthews is not a HOFamer. Penalties not withstanding he is off to a really good year so far. If he continues production into his mid thirties, he may be worth discussing again
Ok, lol
I think it is a wait and see approach with Clay Matthews. He has had a good career and penalties not withstanding has shown a great motor thus far. if he puts up numbers thru his mid-thirties you never know.
Is there room for Zach Thomas on the semi-finalist this year. I am a little surprised there has not been a bigger push for Zach Thomas. I really think he is a HOFamer but the ballot seems very crowded over the next few seasons.
As to Clay Matthews (as with many other early or mid career current players) I am reluctant to project PFHOF chances, he has solid start but still needs to do more, as it stands now without more accomplishments in my view he falls short.
And yes I really think it is long overdue for Thomas to make the semi-finalist list as certainly he would now be among the top modern LB candidates deserving, I just think in recent years he was lost in the push for many other defensive players including DL and DBs.
i was recently watching Super Bowl XL Raiders vs Vikings. It was the first time that I have taken notice of Jeff Siemen LB Vikings. He was a very good aggressive player. I have not seen enough tape on him but has he ever been mentioned on this post as a possible senior candidate?
He was really good and a key player with the D. When I think of him I think of Bob Breuning. That said if I was going to push for a Vikings D player from the 70’s it would be 1/6 Matt Blair. Man that guy had a knack for blocking kicks. I put Blair just a little behind 2/6 Isiah Robertson. Y’all know I’m big on him. :)
Matt Blair was a young player during SBX but very good. you are right about blocking kicks. Blair, Ted Hendricks and Steve Tasker were about the best I ever saw timing wise.
Great points Bill. I liked “the stork” when he went to the Raiders. Funny that Bob Garman of B-R has Scott Studwell as the best Vikings LB ever. Not the name I’d come up with but he was a tackling machine. Check out Blair’s profile!! I wonder how many sacks he had with his size and speed? Mayve we should bring up his name more often for HOF consideration?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1702858-power-ranking-the-5-greatest-linebackers-in-minnesota-vikings-history#slide2
Thanks Tony- I just read the article. I saw Scott Studwell play a lot and he was good. He reminded me of Steve Nelson of the Patriots, very solid, not flashy but made a lot of tackles. However, I think Matt Blair and Jeff Siemon were much more dominant. Just like Andre Tippett was when he played alongside Nelson.
PS- I like Isiah Robertson as well but that senior LB line is long!
Tippett is a perfect comparison IMO . As we know OLB, ex. Randy Gradishar, Blair, Robertson doesn’t get a lot of love from the HOF voters and I don’t know how Siemon fits into the MLB list from that time. I suspect near the top with only Tommy Nobis above him and on a par with Mike Curtis and Jack Reynolds. .
I could be off base but I don’t think the 49ers win their 1st SB without Jack “Hacksaw” Reynolds’ leadership and high level play.
Hacksaw was so-so in that 1981 Super Bowl but he was outstanding during the other playoff games and had a very, very good season. He did provide outstanding leadership. I always thought that he brought the same aspects to the 49ers at that stage in his career, that Lyle Alzado brought to the Raiders and Claude Humphrey brought to the Eagles.
Reynolds contributions to the the 49ers defense that season got a little lost with the acquisition of Fred Dean.
I don’t remember Dean well. That shows on me I guess. lol I remember Reynolds because of his almost folk hero status he carried for years that was created by I believe Pat Summerall who talked about he used a hacksaw to cut a Volkswagen in half. Plus Reynolds and that great Rams D finally made it to a SB two years before albeit Jack Youngblood with a broken leg.
I’ve always thought it too bad that one of the best Defenses in NFL history had only one HOFer. I guess like Duper and Clayton, Rod Perry and Pat Thomas were seen as a great tandem. All those players had achieved notoriety for being only 5’9″ tall. Hanford and Dixon also come to mind that way.
49ers key players I remember as key from the Offense are Montana, Earl Cooper, Freddie Solomon, Dwight Clark and Randy Cross.
A thought I have talking about the way the Media compares QB’s today (other positions too) to the greats of the past with so many rule changes and inflated stats is, WE DON’T! To me the GOAT talk in the NFL has become irrelevant.
1960 forward is considered ” The Modern Age of Football”. Now we need to come up with a new term for the year 2000 moving forward that would reflect a different game.
No one compares Sammy Baugh or Otto Graham to Roger Staubach or Terry Bradshaw. Why do we need to compare Montana or Elway to Manning or Brady?
We can compare players from 2000 to 2040. lol Any thoughts on a name?
Actually in attempting to put together their top 5 or top 10 QBs of all time, people have often compared Baugh to Graham to Staubach and others including Montana, Elway and Manning, Brady. That is the whole point of GOAT which you can only do if you consider the entire 99 years of the league. Yes this era is much different than the 30s, 50s and 70s, but then again so was the 60s and 80s, compared to 90s. The game is always changing, has continually evolved. and not just for QBs, but also OL, DL, LBs etc…. For GOAT debates I always consider a players impact and dominance at their positions, against their peers in their era. That is why in any discussion of top 10 WRs, Don Hutson needs to be included. And to focus on the last 20 years or few decades in debating the best teams or players in the history of the league is shortsighted and an all too often tendency to remember the most recent or current while ignoring history. So I say rather than separating pre 2000 from post 2000 we instead embrace all 99 years.
Paul, I agree that is the way a serious historian goes about evaluating the sport but few commentators today know the history well enough or care. It’s more exciting to talk about the stats players are collecting and tell the audience these are the best ever. More and more it’s about analytics across all sports. We used to be told stats were only important for only Baseball. The Media is constantly using numbers to show value like it’s this first for this or that and it drives me crazy. Not the same game. It is so misleading to the casual or young fan. That’s my point I think if we called this is a different era the players of yesteryear would be cemented in their time. We’ve done it before. Maybe it will happen naturally as we get more into this century. I wonder who was responsible for coining 1960 forward as the beginning of the modern age?
Wow. I liked Studwell growing up, but he’s not close to the best Vikings LB ever. Blair. The trio the Vikings had in the 70s of Hilgenberg, Warwick and Winston was really good, though overshadowed by the dominant front four. Fred McNeill. As I go through the all-time list, the Vikes have not actually had a ton of world-beating LBs, but I’d give it to one of the guys from the 70s teams before Studwell, I think.
When is the next cutdown for Hall of fame nominees.
Bill – it’s usually the end of November when the semi finalists are announced.
what would three names that would surprise you as semis
Steve Wisniewski, Corey Dillon and Cornelius Bennett
yep usually around the 3rd week in November (was Nov 21st last year). Here is my prediction, 22 or so are pretty easy pics-its always the last few that are a crapshoot:
Steve Atwater
Champ Bailey
Ronde Barber
Tony Boselli
Isaac Bruce
LeRoy Butler
Don Coryell
Alan Faneca
Tony Gonzalez
Rodney Harrison
Torry Holt
Steve Hutchinson
Edgerrin James
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
John Lynch
Kevin Mawae
Karl Mecklenburg
Leslie O’Neal
Ed Reed
Simeon Rice
Richard Seymour
Zack Thomas
Hines Ward
Darren Woodson
Of those players my wish list is in this order: Tony Gonzales, Ed Reed, Champ Bailey, Alan Faneca, Zach Thomas and Hines Ward
IMO Hines Ward was a way better “football player” than his WR accolades 0/4. I also believe Ward’s career was more relevant in Steelers’ History than HOFer Lynn Swann. Without Ward I don’t think the Steelers win either of their two SB’s in the 2000’s. Such a great safety blanket for Rothlisberger and a tone setter (tough SOB) for the team. One of four WR’s with 1,000 receptions, having a career with only one team. 4th in all-time playoff receptions.
After Ward, Isaac Bruce needs to be a priority.
I’m actually not big on Hines Ward or LeRoy Butler. THere are people from those same positions, and from the pool in general that need to be considered before they do.
As far as I can remember Ward had great support for being a HOFer at the end of his career.If Bruce gets in before Ward that’s fine. I’m only slightly for Butler and Holt being in the HOF,
agreed with bill on hines ward as for leroy i could go either way
And my prediction for modern elected in 2019 remains same as since end of 2018 election:
Champ Bailey
Tony Boselli
Tony Gonzalez
Kevin Mawae
Ed Reed
Paul – swap Mawae for Faneca and we are in agreement.
I think either could get in, both are deserving, only giving an edge to Mawae as he has been in final 10 each of last two years, but with four OL likely in final 10, could be a real toss up, but I feel pretty good that Boselli will be one and that a 2nd is also very possible. Law might be an alternative but with Robinson, Reed and Bailey I just don’t see 4 DBs in elected 8.
and 2019 modern semi-finalists to be announced Nov 20
I haven’t found anyone of more recent times who tops Zach Thomas’s 120 solo tackles as a rookie. There’s another LB tackling machine we’ve talked about as just as worthy but I can’t remember his name. I don’t think it’s Sam Mills. I thought he played for the Redskins but didn’t think it was London Fletcher but it probably was.
They practically have the same AV 149 to 145 which is big time. Fletcher played at a higher level longer. Fletcher started 62 more games and Thomas wasn’t a short timer. lol Both were in the AFC and Thomas 5/7 got all of the accolades over Fletcher 0/4. Fletcher didn’t make the PB until he went to the Redskins at age 34. Wasn’t it Fletcher who made the final tackle in the Rams SB win at the one yard line? Both deserve into the HOF IMO but I would be surprised if Thomas who retired 5 years before Fletcher didn’t get in first. Both John Lynch 2/9 have waited 10 years. I think it’s close to time!
I think Sam Mills 1/5 falls through the cracks.
It was Mike Jones who made the tackle on Kevin Dyson at the one yard line in the Rams SB win.
I see Zack Thomas starting to make a move up the ballot this year, and Lynch will be at top of list in 2020 which will be a much more open finalist list then in recent years (in 2020 only Troy Polamalu is a serious 1st ballot contender, leaving four open slots). Law, EJ, Bruce and remaining OL will also be strong contenders in 2020. I am not so sure about the prospects for Fletcher, he could wait a long time and end up in seniors pool.
BoKnows SB history, thanks. :)
Thanks Paul. I don’t know about Polamalu being a 1st ballot. Certainly could be with his resume. For me he’s a notch below Ed Reed a no brainer 1st ballot HOFer just like his teammate Ray Lewis.
4(2)/8/2SBs/DPOY/All Decade seems like first ballot to me, agree he is not as great as Reed, but those accomplishments are 1st ballot worthy, especially considering there are no other likely 1st ballot candidates in 2020
Some of the TV Media is talking J.J. Watt and a 4th DPOY. Right now he’s neck and neck with Aaron Donald. I love J.J. but if the stats are even I’d go with Donald because he plays DT. Either way IMO if J.J finishes with a great comeback season he’s a HOFer.
I’m leaning towards:
1. Tony Gonzalez
2. Ed Reed
3. Tony Boselli
4. Champ Bailey
5. Alan Faneca
Although I am holding out hope for a surprise of Karl Mecklinburg or Cornelius Bennett (I know, they both have no shot)
And of course I think all execs and Johnny Robinson are getting in.
In recent years PFHOF voters have really supported all decade team members (in 2018 all final 10 where all decade players), so at least for the foreseeable future, the final 15 is going to be dominated by those players, leaving very little space for others. Most of the 90s first team are in and once voters work through the 2000s starters in the next few elections 2019-2021 (James, TonyG, Faneca,Hutchinson, Mawae, Bailey, Woodson, Reed)+ Manning, only then may be easier for others-of course until we start to see the wave of 2010 members arrive on the ballot several elections down the road!
Is anyone high on 1/5 Carnell Lake like I am? He was over-shadowed bu Rod Woodson but always my favorite on that steelers Defense. Pro Reference has Lake on their 1st All Decade 90’s Team. I bet he looks good on film.
CarnelL lake and Joey Browner look good on Film but there is not a big push to get either in the Hall of fame I like both guys better than Butler but not as good as D. Woodson, Atwater or Lynch
Thanks Bill. That sounds spot on. Greg Lloyd 3/5 is another good HOF candidate IMO.
What do you guys think about this all time Safety List? Of course I have a problem with Dick Anderson being picked over Jake Scott. It’s PC IMO :)
opps! lol https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/the-10-best-nfl-safeties-of-all-time.html/
I would love to see Carnell Lake get a shot. He played in Rod Woodson’s shadow for much of the 1990s, but was great in coverage, was very versatile (he played both safety positions and CB) and was arguably deserving of DPOY in his one first-team All-Pro season (1997). Unfortunately he’s stuck in a logjam at the safety position with Reed, Lynch, Atwater and Woodson definitely ahead of him. I’d probably put Butler right around the same spot as him, and would put him slightly ahead of Darren Sharper and Tim McDonald.
He’s also likely competing at least somewhat with the cornerback group of Bailey, Barber, Law and to a lesser extent guys like Eric Allen and Troy Vincent.
Given that he’s an all-decade member, he might eventually get some traction in the senior’s pool, but I don’t know that he would standout among the group or lower Pro Bowl/no Super Bowl ring players like Joey Browner, Deron Cherry and Nolan Cromwell.
In terms of who might fill the other vacant spots on the semi-finalist list, I would expect at least one of Mike Kenn, Clay Mattews or Steve Tasker to return to the list. I would prefer to see Steve Wisniewski return to the semis over all of those players, but he doesn’t seem to have any momentum right now.
Out of the candidates that haven\t made the semis before, Zach Thomas seems like the most logical and obvious one to make the jump, but I think Donovan McNabb, Ricky Watters, Stirling Sharpe, Cornelius Bennett, Eric Allen and Dick Vermeil stand out to me as good candidates to make the next round for the first time.
One other name I would throw out there as a dark horse candidate to make the semis list is Neil Smith. He doesn’t have a tremendous weak spot on his resume, as he’s a 1/6/90’s with 2 Super Bowl rings, a solid, though not elite, sack total of 104.5 and one year of leading the league in sacks (1993). He also plays a position that doesn’t have a lot of current competition on the nomination list. I would definitely put him behind Richard Seymour among defensive linemen, but would put him ahead of all of the other DEs on the ballot including last year’s semifinalists Rice and O’Neal (though he’d be barely ahead of O’Neal). I am not sold on Rice and O’Neal both making the semifinalist round again this year, so maybe that opens up a spot for Smith?
Good analysis! I love the idea of Neil Smith, Zach Thomas and Eric Allen moving up in consideration, I guess I should come around on where everyone else is at on Richard Seymour. lol
I might be in the minority but IMO 0/4 Clay Matthews Jr., a key member of Cleveland’s D was a HOVG player for an incredible amount of time. I’m right on the fence for the HOF. How big a factor should longevity be with a player who likely wouldn’t be in?
If Mathews Jr. makes the HOF, Mr. Falcon Tommy Nobis needs to be put in before Mr. Browns.
Looking at PFHOF voting and elections it does not appear that longevity alone can get a player in the Hall, will also require several excellent seasons. I do think Matthews Jr deserves consideration some day but at 0/4, I don’t see him a priority over many other more deserving candidates. I doubt very much he makes it as a modern candidate and soon will end up in the seniors pool where who knows how long he waits. Like Kramer, Matthews Jr has a daughter pushing hard for his support via social media and writing campaigns to voters-I really don’t think that is what made a difference for Kramer who we know was among top senior candidates for many years, unlike Matthews Jr who simply won’t have that level of interest or support from the voters.
I’ll make a bold prediction, if Texans’ WR DeAndre Hopkins and QB Deshaun Watson stay healthy for the next five years than Hopkins makes the HOF. He’s been so good with lousy QB play. Reminds me of Tim Brown. IMO he’s in top four WR’s after 5 seasons. I have him ahead of Odell Beckham and behind Antonio Brown, AJ Green and Julio Jones so far but he’s moving up in respect be named AP last year.
Paul why do you have to be a nitpicker on Matthews it’s getting old
As a fellow “nitpicker “, I appreciate you Paul. :) Keep up the good analysis!
Robert everyone who posts here tends to have their favorites but also other candidates they don’t feel are as deserving and we express our opinions and reasoning on those. I don’t think it is nicpicking to point out cases where some would make the case for a candidate who clearly is not as deserving as others. Election to the PFHOF is a very selective honor with limited slots each year, so I have issue with myself or other posters making arguments for and against candidates even great players like Matthews Jr. Again it’s just an opinion, everyone is allowed to have one.
I also like Neil Smith and thought he was a Hall of famer while he was playing but I might rank them differently than you. I consider Richard Seymour more of a DT and interior pass rusher but as far as those overlooked DE’s, 1) Leslie O’Neal, Neil Smith and then Simeon Rice.
I support Neil Smith strongly but wasn’t he criticized in Kansas City for having effort that was a little inconsistent? Maybe too much was expected? Has their ever been two better LB-DE sack players than Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas on one team?
Interesting because I’ve always thought of Seymour as a DE because that’s where he had his best years with the Patriots. Can’t disagree he deserves credit for playing pretty good at DT. I’m still on the HOF fence with him.
Watching Lions former great WR Herman Moore 3/4 on TV this morning. Loved watching how he played. Class act! If only his career hadn’t faded so badly.
1995 WR 122 catches 1371 Yds 17 TDs
Anyone have a guess who this player is ? He DID NOT make All Pro after this great year? lol Hint: Herman Moore was a factor and a rival.
Cris Carter (ok, I did have to look it up…but he was one of my first thoughts).
Unbelievable season–Isaac Bruce had 119-1,781-13, and wasn’t even a Pro Bowler (although he probably deserved it over Michael Irvin’s 111-1603-10).
Carl Pickens put up 17 TDs that year as well, and Larry Centers had 101 receptions out of the backfield (for 962 yards).
Bengals lead the World in all-time fizzled careers. Dan Ross TE, Chris Collinsworth WR, Ickey Woods RB, Carl Pickens, Jeff Blake QB and TJ Houshmanzadah, all at one point were tremendous and then their careers took a nosedive. Collinsworth actually had a really good career but I remember after his first couple of seasons people were ready to put him in Canton.
aint that the truth bill
How do people feel about forgotten lineman Richmond Webb, Steve Wisniewski and Lomas Brown. At least the first two seemed destined for the HOF while they were playing but the lineman that cam in right after them have kind of overshadowed those players. Ogden, Allen, Roaf, Shields , McDaniel, Jones and Pace got in so fast. I believe Boselli will get in this year, but do the players mentioned at the top have any chance or will they get the Mike Kenn, Joe Jacoby treatment.
That was a golden era for offensive linemen that also included Dermontti Dawson to your list of great names.
Webb, Wisniewski and Brown may have to wait until the current blacklog is cleared to see their names advanced as a semi finalist. That backlog is Boselli, Mawae, Faneca and Hutchinson, with Joe Thomas another future 1st ballot choice.
By electing one OL per year it could be 2024 before we see any new names mentioned, by which time their eligibility as a modern era candidate will have expired, or at least very close to expiring.
For what it’s worth Bruce Smith said Richmond Webb was the best OL player he ever went to battle with.
The Falcons had a few great RB’s William Andrews, Gerald Riggs and Jamal Anderson whose career ended with a fizzle due to injury.
We’ve gone here before but now that Jamaal Charles 6 rushes for 7 yds is clearly done does he get HOF credit for his elusiveness the way Gaye Sayers did ? I think he should.
I don’t think Charles has a strong case and he is certainly not compatible to Sayers who had a very unique career: 5x all pro, 2x lead league in rushing and 2x lead league in kickoff averages age yards plus TDs, and was a top PR. Not so sure league has had a compatible threat at both RB and KR/PR in history, certainly not since Sayers
I think it all comes down to how long it takes to get the current 4 finalist lineman to get in. I think one lineman will get in this year, and with next year being a weak year for 1st timers, the door might be open for two others to get in. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Wisniewski return to the semi finalist list as early as next year, but it’s tough to say whether he’ll have enough time to build enough momentum to get in before his modern era eligibility runs out. There are a lot of pretty good linemen heading into the senior pool (Jacoby and Hilgenburg this year, followed by Kenn, Hinton, Hull, among others), which will remove some of the competition, but my guess is that he gets as far as the finalist list before falling just short.
Webb and Brown seem destined for the senior pool to me. I think Webb deserves better, but similar to Neil Smith, he’s only recently started to get onto the preliminary list consistently, so the momentum just doesn’t seem to be there. Brown has a very similar profile to Hinton, and Hinton has only made the semifinalist list once, so I think that’s probably the upside for him.
As for Charles, even as a diehard Chiefs fan, I don’t see a great case for him. I think the best thing I can say about him is that he’s possibly a top 4 back in a bad era for running backs. If he makes the all-decade team for the 2010s, there’s an outside chance he could eventually get in, but there’s just not enough sustained production for me to call him a HOFer. I think the 2010s RBs will likely be Peterson, McCoy, Gore and Lynch, with Charles just barely missing the cut. I think Le’Veon Bell’s holdout probably takes him out of contention, while Todd Gurley’s late start in the decade might work against him.
only 2020 first year guy that might have a shot is polamalu
Yep I see 2020 as a great catchup year with chances for four of: EJames, Law, Lynch, OL and Bruce or Holt
how often do we have catchup years just curious
I just have a hard time seeing EJames as more than HOVG when comparing to other RB’s skill level. It was huge (91 TDs) playing with Peyton Manning’s and Kurt Warner’s passing game. His average per rush wasn’t ever overly impressive but for one year of 4.6 and only two times in his career did he have a rush over 40 yds. Most years well under. Riggins and Csonka both had more. LOL . Seems like at 6 ft 214 lbs he should be a little more elusive to be a HOFer. . I guess he’s a HOFer based on being a workhorse with durability and good receiver of the ball. I guess he’s a HOFer based on being a workhorse with durability. To me James was kind of a slithering not very flashy runner. IMO Tiki Barber was better and Shaun Alexander was a much better runner.
I’ve come around on Jamaal Charles not being a HOFer. I’m still smarting from him leaving my Longhorns early. He was a comet that didn’t long enough. Great player to watch with his speed.
He did have a Kick -off return TD in the one full year he returned. I don’t doubt he could of been Sayers like if they used him that way returning kicks.
“how often do we have catchup years just curious”
Not really a regular schedule, but every once in a while you get a year with few top 1st ballot candidates, allows for voters to finally consider finalists on the ballot for a while and clear logjams, especially if they continue to fill all five slots. 2015 is a good example, so are 2012 and 2008.
And although I don’t think EJames is one of the best RB of all time, his profile of 2(2)/4/OROY/All Decade/8th career rushing attempts/13th career rushing yards (12,000+)/7x 1000 yrd rush seasons makes him PFHPF worthy.
Paul, Good points on Sayer. Other than Charles’ ability, I can’t think of a RB that has been close to comparable to Sayers rushing and returning the ball. I think of Mercury Morris on Kick offs, Dave Meggett, Tiki Barber was decent, and Darren Sproles off the top of my head . Likely will never be another one like Sayers because they wouldn’t risk injury for long on kick returns if they realized the had a great RB and or the return game will be removed from the game. Sayers only did punt returns one season for the most part. Kick returns are already being phased out of the game. Opps now I looked up and forgot my boy Eric Metcalf , his Dad and Brian Mitchell. Now Eric’s Dad Terry and Mercury were probably the closest to Sayers after his career.
Gotta put Greg Pruitt in that group and OJ Simpson certainly had the skill if he would of been used more that way.
Agreed as there have certainly been RBs and WRs who were also great returners. What Sayers did was truly unique in that he had 1000y seasons and led league in rushing while also the best KR in the league. Never saw that since and yes as KR disappear from the game likely we will never see that level of dual threat again.
I think one reason you won’t see the Gale Sayers RB-KR combo much anymore is that teams are reluctant to risk injury to a star RB by using him to return kicks.
And the 12K threshold seems to be the cutoff point for HoF RBs for a while now. Edgerrin James got past that, and I think that alone qualifies him. He was also durable and versatile as well, a solid receiver as well as rusher.
Is Terrell Davis a HOFer without the SB appearances and does anyone in NFL history have comparable career stats who’s not in the HOF? Maybe his 2,000 yd season got him over the top?
It really is generally true no gets to the HOF alone. Davis had Gary Zimmerman’s blocking, Elway’s passing and Shannon Sharpe/ Rod Smith’s receiving. I think the RB HOFer’s on some of the losing teams are the most impressive like Sayer’s, and OJ Simpson.
“no one” . Players that have to carry their Team ala Earl Campbell.
I’m thinking at the least, the WR standard for yards in a season today with all the passing should be equal to the 70’s when they played 14 games and 1,000 yds was considered great.
A lot of players today fall short of that threshold 1,143 yds. Even though WR’s catch twice as many balls in a year only 7-8 go over that threshold compared to 2-3 back n the day. I don’t know how you grade so many WR’s averaging 12-13 yds a catch? I guess purely on accolades because there’s not much separation skill wise.
Tony P would you at least agree that james peeterd out early
???
I agree with Bachs on Edge James about the 12,000 yds getting him in the HOF.
I’m wondering why we have a threshold given the nature of the position where playing well past 30 is rare. What about the players who stayed in college vs, the norm of the players leaving early? which is the norm among the best?played when leaving college early wasn’t the norm?
I think 10,000 yds should generally be considered the lowest threshold for players who stay in college 4 years. But for me you need those 10,000 yds in your prime (normally 8 years) which takes you to 30 years old, If you do that in 8 years (10,000 yds) you’re averaging 1,250 yds a season (1,107 yds in the 1970’s). That should get a player into to the HOF.
In some case players get in 9 years at the 30 mark. For each additional year a player add an additional 1,000 yds to their total. Years lost to injury are dropped. Past 30 years old I don’t give credit to total yards unless they gets over 900 yds. No credit for hanging around and padding your total. :)
Under that scenario these guys were oh so close but didn’t quite make the grade:
Corey Dillon :(, Warrick Dunn , Ricky Watters, Tiki Barber :( , Shaun Alexander :(, Ottis Anderson :( , Steven Jackson and Fred Taylor,
Someone said this was a weak RB generation and boy is that right. LeSean McCoy 2/6 doesn’t make the grade. If Marshawn Lynch would of played more he might of gotten there based on TD’s with over 100? That’s how Marcus Allen made the HOF. LOL
These players should be in the HOF : Adrian Peterson, Eddie George, Jamal Lewis, Edgerrin James, Frank Gore, All but AP not flashy but producers at a HOF level. I hate to admit but I think I agree with the results. lol Any thoughts??
Someone with an interesting case is Clinton Portis who may have the most yards and TD’s of any RB in his first 100 games. He only played 113 in his career. Need more research.
I’d put Portis as the 8th best RB in the modern era pool right now behind (in this order): James, Watters, Barber, Alexander, Holmes, George, and Walker. Craig and Ottis Anderson would be 2nd and 4th on this list had they not recently entered the senior pool. His production over his first 7 seasons is excellent, and his 87,8 rushing yards per game are the most of any RB in the modern era pool by over 5 yards (James, Lewis, Alexander, Taylor, DIllon, George, Watters, Larry Johnson and Holmes are the only ones in the modern pool to surpass 70 rushing yards per game).
Unfortunately, his case kind of falls apart there. His 80 career TDs are solid, but not spectacular. he only made 2 Pro Bowls and 1 2nd All-Pro team, he had essentially no postseason success and he was only an average receiver out of the backfield. He’s one of many guys from this era that either had a short career with a high peak or a long career with not much to show in terms of post-season awards.
Jamal Lewis had an amazing season in 2003, but that is basically the bulk of his HOF case. His all-decade team nod, Super Bowl ring and 81 rushing yards/game help, but he also only finished his career with 62 TDs, was mostly a non-factor in the passing game, and made only 1 Pro Bowl. While his rushing yards look great in a bubble, he played in an era where rushing for 1,300 yards in a season wasn’t that unusual, and he only did that 4 times.
LeSean McCoy doesn’t have amazing stats overall at this point, but he’s still playing and having 2/6 profile is going to be hard to ignore, especially in a bad RB era, Peterson is obviously a lock at this point, and Gore’s stats alone will put him in at some point, but McCoy and Lynch are the only other guys from the late 2000’s-mid 2010’s era that really strike me as having a chance. I like the chances of all four getting in though. I would personally take them over anyone in the modern era right now other than James, though I really think Ricky Watters’ case in underrated.
Regarding Portis’ rushing yards through 100 games, it looks like he is behind several players, but they are all legends:
Emmitt Smith
Barry Sanders
Jim Brown
Eric Dickerson
LaDainian Tomlinson
Adrian Peterson
Edgerrin James
He had more rushing yards than Walter Payton through 100 games, which is quite the accomplishment. While everyone knows Brown, Sanders, and Smith were amazing, and LT, AP and Edge are fresh in everybody’s minds, it’s sometimes easy to forget just how ridiculous the start to Eric Dickerson’s career was. Through his first 7 seasons, he averaged 106.7 rushing yards per game!
Good stuff BSLO! Thanks for doing my homework. lol
My set up was an attempt to take the eye test out of the equation. Maybe I need to lower the threshold slightly to fit in those guys?
I actually don’t remember Portis’s ability real well but was thinking his numbers were so exceptional he might get some consideration.
We differ on how we see Jamal Lewis. He didn’t get the hype of a John Riggins but IMO has a comparable career. Because of that and 2,000 yds I’d put him in the HOF sooner than later. Plus he was the Ravens Offense. Riggins had Joe Theisman and the “fun bunch” at least in the last few years.. Everyone knew Lewis was getting the ball. A lot like Corey Dillon with Cinncy which is impressive to me. If the Ravens had anything else he would of gotten more TD’s.
Reminder selection of 2019 Semifinalists of 25 announced tonight (Tuesday Nov 20) at 8p
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/11/20/tom-flores-zach-thomas-are-hall-of-fame-semifinalists-for-first-time/
First-year eligibles Tony Gonzalez, Ed Reed and Champ Bailey are among 25 semifinalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
In all, 13 defensive players, nine on offense and three coaches — Jimmy Johnson, Tom Flores and Don Coryell — made the cut.
Making it to the semifinals for the first time, although previously eligible, are Flores and linebacker Zach Thomas.
Returning as semi-finalists are Clay Matthews Jr, Sam Mills and Darren Woodson.
25 Semi Finalists
TE Tony Gonzalez
WR Isaac Bruce Torry Holt HInes Ward
RB:
Edgerrin James
OL
Tony Boselli Alan Faneca Steve Hutchinson Kevin Mawae
Defense
Steve Atwater
Champ Bailey
Ronde Barber
Leroy Butler
Ty Law
John Lynch
Clay Matthews
Karl Mecklenburg
Sam Mills
Ed Reed
Richard Seymour
Zach Thomas
Darren Woodson
Special Teams
PR
KR
K
P
Coach
Don Coryell
Tom Flores
Jimmy Johnson
Leslie O’Neal and Simeon Rice were semi-finalists last year who didn’t make the cut this time. I make it 8 new names from 2018, Reed, Gonzalez and Bailey as first-time eligibles, T.Flores, Z.Thomas, C.Matthews, S.Mills and D.Woodson. No ties this year so just the 25 names in total.
Flores biggest surprise for me but no so sure with two other coaches as semifinalists that he gets into final 15 where both DC and JJ have got to before – havecto think advantage would go to one of them
which one of the coaches do you think paul
Not so sure any are getting in, way too many all decade players will bec finalists, but if I had to choose just one I would say Jimmy J. I really think the only way to see these coaches and others advance is to move coaches into the contributors category
thats what i was thinking too paul in terms of the coaches putting them in the contrib category
Thanks for breaking it down Robert.
I wonder if any of those RB’s I’ve been talking about have made the top 25 since their retirement?
Defense is sure getting a lot of love. Clay Matthews, Sam Mills and LeRoy Butler and Steve Atwater being a S’s seem like filler at this point. Bring them up in their last couple years of eligibility. I can pick 4 better options.
I understand Meclklenburg. IMO he needs to be in the HOF this year which is his last shot at modern day or don’t put him in at all if he’s not good enough. He clearly has the resume. Bachs mentioned he wasn’t always a starter but that was just a half a year once they saw his value. He was a 12 round pick at 310!! I love those stories. :) Most of his 3/6 was as a starter and his excellent play was for an extended time. ..
I’m not feeling Flores but I am Don Coryell this year if they pick a HC. I can’t think of a HC who brought more offensive excitement to the NFL (after Sid Gillman) in his time then he did with his Cardiac Cards with Jim Hart and the Air Coryell Chargers with Dan Fouts.
I’d go Reed, Gonzalez, Bailey, Mecklenberg, Coryell and Edge James (get him off the RB table) .
I am sticking with Reed Bailey Gonzalez Boselli Mawae as moderns, feel pretty good about first four but Mawae slot could be instead be Law or perhaps James as a wild card there. With Reed and Robinson I just don’t see another S getting in this year. Unfortunately I just don’t see Mecklenberg busting through the barrier of several deserving all decade players including all five returning finalists from 2017 election.
Looks like I was 22/25 on my predictions, wrong on Harrison, O’Neal and Rice, instead of Flores, Matthews Jr and Mills.
Staying with my final 15 prediction of: Atwater, Bailey, Boselli,Bruce, Coryell, Faneca, Gonzalez,Hutchison,James,Johnson,Law, Lynch,Mawae,Mecklenburg, Reed
What do you have against Atwater tony
Nothing Robert, but hasn’t he been in the 25 quite a bit? My thinking was wrong. I want him in HOF as a modern player so I guess he’s top 25 most qualified and should be there.
I wonder how scrutinized player’s are before they get to this level? Does it go mostly by accolades? John Riggins must be close to having the lowest accolades of anyone put in as a modern HOFer. He only waited one year. Helps to have to media make a legend out of you. lol No I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve in. lol Very interesting though how he didn’t have to wait long. :) Anyone else come to mind?
Glad to see Torry Holt, Zach Thomas, Richard Seymour, and Sam Mills make it this far. I’d elect all of them.
Not taken with any of Clay Matthews, Hines Ward, or (especially) Tom Flores getting into the Semis. Wouldn’t vote for any of them.
Mike Kenn’s run as a regular candidate is now officially over. as he didn’t make the cut. But given that Joe Jacoby was refused induction, I guess that makes sense. Still, I’d have voted for him given the chance.
Karl Mecklenburg’s still alive for his last time around. Hope he gets through, though he’s never made the jump to the Finals before. I’d vote for him as well.
We shall see what happens from here.
Eight defensive backs among the 25 with Polamalu added for 2020 and Charles Woodson in 2021. It’s going to be a long trek for some of those guys. Reed, Bailey and the aforementioned Polamalu and Woodson won’t have to wait long. Ty Law is close too with Lynch now a regular Top 15 guy.
Everyone else will/should have to wait for that group to get elected before we see the likes of Atwater, Barber and Darren Woodson. Atwater broke into the Top 15 last time but he might be 7th in the pecking order when you include Troy and Charles.
On ESPN, Darren Woodson was acting like it was his first time into the 25.
I wonder which Redskin L.T. beat to end Joe Theisman’s career? Not that there’s any real shame in that. It happened on a flea-flicker play that took too long. I guess you”d have to watch the replay, not me :)
Everyone talks up the Redskin’s Joe Jacoby and he was really good but I’ve always thought DT Dave Butz was really over-looked in the League. It’s like he was too big 6-7 300 lbs to get credit. lol I guess they wanted more sacks from him? Over 62 sacks is really good for an inside D-Lineman known for stopping the run.. He was the blood and guts of their D IMO. Maybe he could be the John Riggins of the D. :)
Watching Monday Night’s fireworks had me thinking about some other high scoring games I’ve seen in my life I don’t think it’s the very best (really good) but for some reason I remember the Vikings beating the Rams 45-41 on a November day before Thanksgiving in 1972.
I was young (9 years) old to football and was drawn to the Rams Roman Gabriel, Willie Ellison, Jack Snow, Lance Rentzel, Jim Bertlesen (a Longhorn battering Ram) Deacon Jones, Merlin Olsen and Coy Bacon. Might of been the cool names or the uniforms. lol Can’t forget Fran Tarkington to John Gilliam, Bill Brown and The Purple People Eaters either.
Anyone remember that game? It’s a classic regular season game to me.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197211190ram.htm
ok im going to sum up some of the recent posts
1. i completly agree with bachs on mike kenn would have rather seen him as a semi than clay matthews we also agree on hines ward and tom flores also i hope that karl gets that final bump too
2. Bo Knows your exactly right there is a log jam at db which should clear out by 2022 i also want to know bo knows where are you on ty law
3. Paul you and i have the same three bailey gonzalez reed but the last two im not real sure of
4. your welcome tony p. glad to help
Who had a better career Lynn Swann or Hines Ward?
I’m also bummed to see that Mike Kenn didn’t get another chance on the semifinalist list. I don’t think he had any chance at getting elected, but he would have made for a nice wildcard in his last year of eligibility. I think it’s a minor surprise that there are only 5 skill position players on the semifinalist list, as this ties 2005 as the lowest number since the semifinalist round was added in 2004. I thought this might be the year McNabb, Watters or Sharpe made the jump to the next round, but that didn’t turn out to be the case.
Zach Thomas was a great player to move forward this time around. Matthews and Mills aren’t huge surprises since they have made the list before. I think Sam Mills has better case than Matthews but I wouldn’t be disappointed if either player eventually got in. Happy to see Woodson back on the list, but with so many DBs on the ballot, he’ll ultimately be a non-factor.
Flores feels like the biggest wildcard to me. I’m only 33 years old, so I missed the entire golden age of the Raiders, but on paper it seems like he coached a pretty average team to his first Super Bowl and a much better, but flawed team to his 2nd Super Bowl. I think that probably gives him a better case than say George Seifert, but I still don’t like him as much as Jimmy Johnson or Don Coryell. His total flame out in Seattle likely works against him as well. Jimmy Johnson didn’t have a ton of success in Miami, but he also never had a losing season. Flores went 14-34 in Seattle.
His work as the team’s GM from 1989-1994 wasn’t terrible. He drafted a pair of Hall of Fame-caliber players in Cortez Kennedy, and Kevin Mawae, unearthed Michael McCrary, Michael Sinclair, Michael Bates and Chris Warren in the later rounds, and drafted other solid players like Sam Adams, Andy Heck and Robert Blackmon. That said, he also drafted two massive QB busts in Dan McGwire and Rick Mirer, and his decision to ditch Dave Krieg and go with the three-man dream team of McGwire, Kelly Stouffer and Stan Gelbaugh in 1992 produced one of the absolute worst offensive seasons in the modern-day NFL.
A lot of people hold Carolina’s 1-15 season in 2001, and his general lack of success outside of San Francisco against George Seifert (another double Super Bowl winner), so I think it’s only fair to do the same with Flores’ Seattle tenure. Despite his great work the Raiders, he’s a no for me.
Yeah, I don’t get the Tom Flores love, either. His coaching career is fairly short, and outside of the two title years not that special. 97-87 just screams short, ordinary career to me. George Seifert went 114-62, which is far better, and also won two titles — and frankly strikes me as a
better candidate. BLSO, your assessment of his GM stint is perfectly fair. Jimmy Johnson has an even shorter career at 80-64 and won two titles himself, though his GM case is far stronger. You have to give very heavy credit to Flores’s QB stint to make any reasonable case for him.
Consider also that Flores and Seifert were essentially handed the reins to already well-running machines while Johnson had to build from scratch, and that’s another thing in Johnson’s favor.
The Raider front office has historically gone to a lot of trouble to spearhead HoF cases for those they deem worthy, and their fandom is especially tenacious online and elsewhere as well. They’ve mastered the art of “say it over and over again until it becomes accepted wisdom,” and it worked for guys like Ken Stabler, who frankly doesn’t belong in, and certainly not ahead of Kenny Anderson. The notion of Flores and even more so Jim Plunkett as a HoFer is frankly ridiculous, but these folks don’t let facts get in the way of an aggressive marketing campaign. Why they don’t get behind someone more deserving like Cliff Branch, Dave Grayson, or Art Powell is beyond me.
bachs how much longer are you going to go on the stabler tangent because quite frankly its getting old so im asking you please stop
Where do I stand on Ty Law?
He deserves a gold jacket and would be the second Patriots defensive player from the Belichick era if you count the late Junior Seau.
Having got as far as the Top 10 last year with four offensive linemen he’s depressed himself from Lynch and Atwater. Problem is we now have Reed and Bailey which probably pushes him back a year.id put my money on 2020 but at the very worst he gets in by 2022. He should be the top DB in the ballot if it goes that far.
*separated … not depressed.
Auto correct nightmare.
There’s a very good reason why I don’t think Ken Stabler is a good HoF choice. There’s no other QB in Canton with his combination of so-so regular season stats and one title except for Joe Namath (who has a few narrative pluses Stabler lacks).
Stabler sits outside the general level of a HoF QB by every adjusted for era ranking I’ve come across. Specifically:
Brad Oremland. 46th all time
Chase Stuart. 66th all time
Kiran Rasaretnam. 37/38/26 all time in best 4/7/10 seasons
For some perspective, there are almost no other HoF QBs in this area as a rule, most often including guys like John Hall, Joe Theisman, Donovan McNabb, Charlie Conerly, Steve DeBerg, Craig Morton, Rich Gannon, Daryle Lamonica, and the like instead. That’s not HoF level as far as I’m concerned. I think Stabler was a badly overrated QB who benefited from a heavy push from Raider interests, and most certainly doesn’t belong in ahead of Ken Anderson, for whom there’s ample precedent to induct (no title, but great regular season stats).
Robert, I would be very interested in hearing your case in favor of Stabler as a deserving HoFer. I just don’t see it.
John Hadl, not John Hall. Damn autocorrect.
I think Bachs missed the memo about not speaking ill of players who are in the HOF? hehehe I knew it wouldn’t last. :)
I have no more of a issue with Stabler than I do Joe Namath. I’m good (not great) with it because it’s impossible to tell the history of the NFL without those QB icons of the 60’s and 70’s. I can tell the League’s history without Ken Anderson. His best year was the emergence of Joe Montana. That said I’m not for or against his induction. At this point I’m truly agnostic on this on which is rare for me. lol
I want my QB to win and win in the big ones. Ken Stabler did that with a record of 96-49-1. Can’t under estimate that ability,
Tony, a couple things. Stabler did win a lot of games (mostly because he played a long time), though I think his reputation for winning “in the big ones” is highly overrated. He does after all only have one SB title under his belt, which means he lost a big one in every other year he made the playoffs. I think the hype-up games like Sea of Hands, Holy Roller, and Ghost to the Post are marketing schemes rather than indications of clutch performance when it counts. Plenty of good QBs have won come from behind victories who aren’t HoF worthy.
And I’ve never been sold on the notion of “telling the story of the NFL” as a qualifier for HoF worth. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be very many o-linemen in. For the layman, it’s the skill position guys and sack compilers who get the limelight. And then there’s guys like Jay Berwanger, who was the first NFL draft pick ever; you can’t “tell the story of the NFL” without him, but he never played a down in the NFL. He certainly doesn’t belong in the HoF.
It’s not that you have to be included in the story of the NFL but if you’re someone that was such a prominent figure that it’s hard to ignore you in that story it should in most cases be a deciding factor. I’m not talking about a play or two. In the 70’s Raiders were in the middle of the best the NFL had to offer. I think it’s fair to include the QB that led them to all those wins. Numbers for the 70’s QB’s of great Teams weren’t all that great with so much running. Stabler could certainly pass the ball as could Bob Griese when called on. I actually think Stabler was a better version of Griese which pains me to say. lol
I think Stabler had the Joe Montana cool under pressure gene. He led them to 5 straight AFC Championship games and one was the “immaculate reception game”. They were that game and a controversial 3 pt loss in Denver away from 3 SB appearances. One could say they were ‘snake bit”. The football gods smiled on them in 1976. One could say luck was on their side in the playoffs but Stabler IMO always had what it took to be a SB winning QB.
As someone who watched the Miami vs Oakland and Oakland vs Baltimore playoff games I believe those were among the very best played playoff games the NFL have to offer in the 70’s. I don’t see how Stabler gets any shine from the “holy roller”. Not a great play that changed the rules.
The final 10 not elected last year are all members of all decade teams, and Boselli and Mawae must have support from voters since they made the final 10 in back to back elections. Now with 4 OL in that aforementioned group the logjam could be broken up by voters selected any one of them in 2019-and I am pretty sure an OL is getting in. So that is why in addition to Reed, Bailey, and Gonzalez I am predicting Boselli and Mawae. I just do not see a surprise coming out of final 25 (or final 15) into final 10, this group of voters seem to really favor all decade teams players and have shown a trend in recent years not to “award” election to a candidate on their last year as modern. A potential logjam of 3 OL (besides one elected) may allow Law to slide in or perhaps James. Unfortunately I think Lynch may be waiting until 2021 or 2022 ( 7th or 8th year as finalist) as Reed and Robinson already make for safety heavy class.
The “football dogs” giveth and they taketh away. Stabler was on the wrong end of the stick for the Immaculate Reception and on the right end for the Ray Hamilton phantom roughing the passer call. Stuff happens, and as I’ve been know to say before, if you’re in a circumstance where a fluke play or ref’s judgement call decides the game, you shouldn’t have let things get so close that something like that takes the win away from you.
And we’ll have to agree to disagree about whether things like “Sea of Hands” and “Ghost to the Post” are legitimate important moments in NFL history or fed-in media hype helped along by Raider special interests. I think they’re the latter, but YMMV.
The “football dogs” giveth and they taketh away. Stabler was on the short end of the stick for the Immaculate Reception but on the long end for the Ray Hamilton roughing the passer call. Stuff happens. As I’ve been known to say, if you let the game get so close that a fluke play or ref’s judgement call takes the game away from you, you shouldn’t have put yourself in that position in the first place.
And we’ll have to agree to disagree about whether things like “Sea of Hands” and “Ghost to the Post” are legitimate historically significant moments in NFL history or media hype fed heavily by Raider special interests. I think they’re the latter, but YMMv.
A few things I would like to touch upon.
1. Hines Ward has stats that dwarf Swann and he was a great blocker for a WR. His longevity compared to Swann can’t be challenged, but I would take Swann every day of the week and Twice on Sunday (pardon the expression.)
2. Mike Kenn was a great blocker and grades out well, but his time with Falcons when they stunk hurts him, His play should have made him a HOFamer.
3.I like Bailey, Reed, Gonzalez, Boselli and Faneca.
4. Mills and Mecklinburg had HOF careers
5. Griese and Bradshaw were winners, Tark was a compiler and fun to watch. Namath and Stabler kept you on the edge of your seat. ALL of them Belong in the HOF.
I would like also to see Mills and Mecklinburg get elected but just envision a real hard time for them while as moderns and perhaps longer chances when seniors, but maybe one day.They are the type of candidates really hurt by the max 5 modern slots and end up falling into the seniors pool where they likely struggle for election for years.
“As I’ve been known to say, if you let the game get so close that a fluke play or ref’s judgement call takes the game away from you, you shouldn’t have put yourself in that position in the first place. ”
Agreed and I make this same argument every time a fan complains that their team was robbed by a key bad call, as most often you could just as easily point to mistakes made by players during the game as the reason they lost or put them into a dire situation to been with. Watched 100s of games live and on TV over last 40 years and very very few came down to a bad call at end of the game that was not preceded by team making more critical mistakes. And even then why play the game to the point where a bad call or mistake causes you to lose, why end up in such a risky situation to begin with.
You guys. lol There were few pretty good Defenses that kept those games low scoring and close. That’s when you could play REAL Defense that was intimidating not like today. 51 pts weren’t allowed by one of the better Defenses (Rams) in the League back in the day!!! Can you imagine the Steel Curtain letting that happen? lol
Bachs, maybe you misunderstand, I don’t care so much about those moments as I care about the entire games. They lived up to the hype and Stabler delivered.
Like your points Bill. Only thing I’d say is when I think of Hines Ward I think of the sh$t load of crucial 3rd down conversions he caught from Big Ben. Swann was more skilled but not as durable. Both clutch players. Really hard to compare because of differing styles but I’d take Ward’s career on my Team. :) The point is to refute the idea Ward isn’t HOF worthy and I’d say should be in sooner rather than later.
Correction: immaculate reception game wasn’t a AFC Championship game. Should of remembered that because Dolphins beat Steelers to go to SB. The next year the Raiders creamed the Steelers 33-14 in Oakland. Miami brought the Raiders back down to earth 27-10. :)
I think Stabler was a tough case for the HOF voters because his prime was shorter than most for a couple reasons. One, not his fault that the Raiders had a very good veteran QB that Stabler sat behind for a few years losing a couple years of his prime. The other is he didn’t take great care of himself and had some horrible interception seasons. His arm looked shot the half of his career. I think they called it a “noodle arm”. lol Too his credit the wily QB hung in there well past his prime having a some good games while remaining accurate and even leading the Aints to .500 ball.
Where’s Robert who gripes about us but than doesn’t add zip in support of the people he says were criticizing too much? lol
My only issue with election of Stabler is that there were-and remain-more deserving senior candidates who should have been elected first
Stabler’s peak is indeed very short. He had HoF level seasons in 1973, 1974, 1976, and 1979. Otherwise, he hung around putting up a long career consisting of several mediocre to just plain bad seasons. This, along with his less than impressive stat rankings adjusted for era in every such system I’ve seen is the primary reason I don’t think he belongs in Canton. If he had won three or four SBs, that might be different, because that would make him more like Bradshaw or Layne. As it is, I don’t see much difference between him and guys like Theisman, Conerly, or Simms, none of whom strike me as Hall worthy. I think the perception solidly outstrips the reality in his case.
And his argument isn’t helped by the distinct possibility that he threw games and shaved points later in his career while being pals with one or more organized crime figures. Stabler did settle out of court on a lawsuit for libel on the issue aga8nst NBC, but several Dr. Z articles suggest Stabler did this anyway.
That’s my thinking, at least.
There’s no question him getting in while Ken Anderson languishes outside the Hall is an issue as well, though that’s relatively minor for me.
Bachs, I can appreciate where your coming from, we just see this one different. It’s close for me
I suspect if some other QB’s, aka Joe Namath lol weren’t in the HOF my standard would be a little higher. :) As it is I think it was fair for Stabler to have wait but be in.
RIP Bob McNair, Thanks for bringing NFL football back to Houston.
Never could figure out why Namath is pointed out as an example of a marginal PFHOFer when he has all decade in AFL, 2x AFL MVP, 5 x All pro QB. Yes his career numbers are average at best but the idea that a SB win is only reason he is in Hall is a misconception many make in my view. Perhaps he could be considered QB with poorest numbers in the Hall, but he is far away the the least deserving player in the Hall
Joe Namath (4/5/allAFL) does have a sturdy peak relative to the era’s standards, encompassing 1965 through 1969, plus a resurgent 1972. That’s actually two more years than Stabler. His other years are pretty pedestrian, which drags down his overall career rankings. Injuries really hurt his career.
His candidacy also arguably hinges more strongly on narrative than any other. He was the prize signing for wthe old AFL in the heyday of its rivalry. He was the only athlete to make Nixon’s ”Enemies List.” He only won one Super Bowl, but it is arguably the most significant one in pro football history, the one that established that the AFL was on a par with the old league. And he was the second biggest “larger than life” sports figure of the time, behind only Muhammad Ali.
I can see the case for Namath in the HiF, though he’s a borderline/second tier guy at best.
My only point is a 5x all 2x MVP all decade team member is deserving of the Hall, and not to be made out as undeserving or worse selection that some would make him out to be
I would rather someone explain to me why Floyd Little is in the Hall?
I think possibly the expedited manner in which Namath went unto the HOF is what irks many people. Maybe if he waited 10 years like Griese he would be more accepted?
Bachs, Even in Namath’s better years he threw a high number of Ints. and completed barely 50% of his passes. Was that the norm from the best QB’s? I guess I’d have to look at how he compared to Griese, Dawson, Lamonica, Kemp and Hadl.
Agreed about the quick election and yea some pretty bad seasons at end of his career, but even best years had high INTs? Perhaps function of the run and defense dominated era and DBs all over WRs, INTs no seen as big concern as now?? Seen as fair risk and outcome of passing?
Did anyone realize 0/4 Mike Vick was the POY in 2010? He has a nice stat line for his career both running 6,109 yds at 7.0 a carry with 36 tds and passing 22,464 yds with 133 tds and 88 ints. Not very good in the playoffs. I guess he blew the HOF missing two years. Imagine if he had HC Andy Reid from the beginning.
I think you meant comeback player of year in 2010, which really is not a major award to be considered in the Hall profile. Hard to speculate what a longer career may have been and if course could have same debate on many players
any body use a stat called Approximate Value
Created by PFR founder Doug Drinen, the Approximate Value (AV) method is an attempt to put a single number on the seasonal value of a player at any position from any year (since 1950)
AV Has Anderson 161 Stabler 119 Namath 115
That is a very high number! lol
Yes, I use it and like it but Anderson’s number proves the system doesn’t always show accurately a player’s HOF worthiness. I wouldn’t say Anderson had a better career than Terry Bradshaw AV 137, Roger Staubach AV 128 or Bob Griese AV 139.
Others who come to mind with high AV’s not in the HOF are 0/4 Clay Matthews AV 137 a great professional (Can you say Jim Marshall AV 164? lol) who was incredibly durable 287 games played but who many don’t see him as HOFer. Or 0/4 Michael Vick AV 113, who though an incredible talent and 2010 POY, I don’t think many view him as a HOFer.
Paul, Vick was Comeback Player and POY in 2010. I know I was surprised. :)
I’m not biting on Floyd Little! lol Been there done that over and over. :) I will say……. nope lol
Good point Paul, ya I’m thinking in the AFL if everyone was throwing them it wasn’t so crucial. Today having 28 Ints.. would get you put on the Bench if your name wasn’t Eli Manning. lol
How about Phillip Rivers solidifying his HOF case yesterday by obliterating of completions in a row record with 28? The Cardinals Defense isn’t a bad one.
Correction. Phillip Rivers only completed his first 25 passes lol not 28 before going 28-29 for the game. The old regular season record was 22.
Amazing season so far! 239 out of 344 passes with 69.5% 3119 yds 26 tds 6 ints. 9.1 yds an attempt
I have Ken Anderson at only 4 hof seasons 74 75 81 82 i have often wonder why he hasn’t gotten that solid push
QBs have a pretty high standard to get into Hall, win championships or end up in top 5 of career passing stats seem to be the requirement. Has left Anderson and a few others in the sideline. Thinking it’s in part a reaction from voters against a very high number of QBs in Hall relative to many other positions hence pushing for OL and defense elections to “level the field” especially with senior candidate elections
Vick is an interesting case, would have been fascinating to see if he had played out a full career. An example of a modern era QB with major impacts as a runner, even moreso then passing during a passing favored era. Even his best season was with only 20 TDs and completion rate under 60%, really poor for the passing era. But like Newton and Randall Cunningham and others how does one measurement impact of this style of QB unless they win multiple SBs which done of the current era running QBs have yet done. Without SB wins but with huge QB rushing yards and TDs yet average passing career numbers does Newton with a MVP get into Hall?
When I said Ken Stable had four HoF level seasons, I gave him credit for any year he played as a regular and had a passer rating of 80.0 or better. He did that in 1973, 1974, 1976, and 1979.
Ken Anderson did this eight times, in 1973, 1974, 1975, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1983, and 1984. That’s twice as many times.
Saw this on Twitter earlier:
“Philip Rivers has the most wins (114), completions (4,410), attempts (6,836), pass yards (53,467), and pass TD (368) among QBs to never make a Super Bowl appearance.”
You make a excellent point in stabler vs Anderson Bach’s and I tip my hat to you
Up to now Phillip Rivers is the John Hadl of his generation. Both deserve to be in the HOF.
Not going to argue there tony
I think (without a SB or MVP) the HOF debate over Rivers is going to be a very interesting one, largely depending on where he stands on the top 5 career passing stats at time of retirement and his 1st year on the ballot. It is clear that the last 15-20 years have seen huge increases in passing numbers and just looking at this season it is also clear that the enforcement of the defenseless player rules is changing how defensive players tackle WRs and RBs, plus further protections for QBs. Unless rules are changed, we will continue to see single game and season records (and career numbers) destroyed for QBs and QRs and numbers skyrocket, making it even harder to separate QB and WR play of current players and create a larger gap between post and pre 2000 eras. What will it mean in next ten years when the top 5 or even top 10 on passing and receiving career records are all held by recent players, how can one separate those from each other and what will that mean for other candidates still on the ballot?
Excellent points about rivers paul i salute you
Totally agree with you Paul.
It’s been pointed out by “experts of the game” that the completion percentage has been increasing because there is so much focus on passing by teams now. Naturally some are getting very proficient at it. So many teams are using the pass as the run. Thank you Bill Walsh not. :)
Also I heard the suggestion that a SB appearance for Rivers would solidify him being a 1st ballot HOFer. lol I was like ‘what”??? LOL
I like Rivers as a Hall of famer but probably not first ballot (depending on who is on the ballot). However, what if he won the MVP and the Super Bowl this year, and then put up two to three more typical Rivers seasons?
I once played a game with my father when we were bored at a family event. He gave me 10 suspect players in the NFL Hall of fame. The game was that I had to make a case for that player and I could use my phone to back up my claims. I was able to make a case for Bob Brown, Doak Walker, Paul Hornung, Dick Stanfel, Bob Waterfield, Pete Pihos, Fred Dean and Dick Lebeau. The game was over when I couldn’t make a case for Floyd Little!
My all-time best pound for pound skill players Team includes : RB’s James Brooks, Terry Metcalf and Warrick Dunn and WR’s Harold Jackson, Mark Clayton and Gary Clark. Honorable mention to Drew Hill
LOL! Damn Bill you hit me in my weak spot!
I have nothing against the man. I’m certainly glad for Floyd and his family. That said I’d like to say to the HOF voters, what were you thinking? LOL Just because Little was the best player over Denver’s crappy first dozen years of existence shouldn’t mean he’s a NFL HOF player.
Putting Little in the NFL’s HOF feels like a total appeasement to Denver’s AFL fans by the NFL. For years his election and Dick LeBeau’s has rubbed me wrong with the continued omission of a winner like Johnny Robinson. Maybe now I can put to bed? lol
Bill, interesting comment about the players HoF justification.
Brown, Pihos, and Waterfield strike me as the easy ones.
Walker and Stanfel have honors arguments in their favor, though Stanfel reportedly is no great shakes via film study — they looked at a lot of film for him over at Ken Crippen’s site, and he didn’t exactly distinguish himself. There appears to be a real disconnect between his 5/4/50s honors and his quality of play. Walker’s jack of all trade stats look like he was master of none, but contemporary observers were sufficiently impressed that he ended up with a 4/5/none honors profile in a 6 year career. Hopefully, it’s justified on film, but I have no way to know.
Hornung, Dean and Lebeau are ones I can’t frankly justify as HoFers on any level, and that’s just as true of Little.
I was a little off on my comparison of Rivers to Hadl in that Hadl was part of an AFL Championship Team and one that lost a Championship as backup to Tobin Rote.
River’s hasn’t sniffed a SB but once in 2007 when he valiantly (had arthroscopic week before and still needing ACL on knee) led the Chargers (beating the defending Champ in Indy 28-24 a week before) in a 21-12 loss (without LT) to a 17-0 New England Patriots Team.
Used to be a great QB had to exhibit a gritty toughness. Was Peyton Manning was the first to lay down to fight another play?
Going by Pro football references AV
Dick Lebeau 105
Bob Brown 95
Floyd Little 83
Fred Dean 70
Paul Hornung 50
Walker Waterfield Pihos Stanfel dont have an av because they played prior to 1960
Paul Hornung a media darling like Joe Namath?
LeBeau has the media fawning over him and his Steelers’ Defense as they win the SB and a few months later he’s nominated for the HOF. Media also does a story on Falcon’s Coach Emmit Thomas and a few months later he’s nominated. It’s like oh that guy is really cool, lets see if we can get him in the HOF.
It just makes you wonder about the process for Senior players.
I could find more av’ s for senior inductees tony if you want
i researched tony there have been 5 senior inductees with av’s over 100
Correction there are 11
1.Mick Tingelhoff 149
2.Nick Buoniconti 138
3.Chris Hanburger 126
4.Ken Stabler 119
5.Henry Jordan 114
6.Gene Hickerson 111
7.Dick Lebeau 105
8.Curley Culp 104
9.Dave Robinson 103
10.Rayfield Wright 103
11.Leroy Kelly 102
That’s not very many. Was Nick Buoniconti inducted as a senior or in his last year of modern eligibility?
For some reason the Career Approximate Value number is different on Pro References’ HOFers list compared to their individual profiles. I tend to believe the HOF list is more accurate. Maybe that’s a true “career ” value. The other doesn’t say career.
G – not many in the HOF who played between 1920-1980
John Hannah 111
Gene Upshaw 109
Larry Little 102
Tom Mack 90
Jerry Kramer 76
Billy Shaw 57
LB
Jack Ham 114
Nick Buoniconti 103
Harry Carson 91
David Robinson 81
Dick Butkus 78
Robert Brazile 74
Dave Wilcox 73
Randy Gradishar 107 ???? 2/7 laughable that he’s not in !
Bill Bergey 106 ???? 2/5 always overlooked.
CB
Paul Krause 113
Willie Brown 108
Lem Barney 99
Mel Renfro 98
Roger Wehrli 82
Dick LeBeau 79
Emmitt Thomas 70
Kenny Easley 60
HB
OJ Simpson 98
Leroy Kelly 87
Floyd Little 70 1/5 When you include Little you open the door to others IMO
Gale Sayers 59
Larry Brown 91 ??? 2/4
Lawrence McCutcheon 85 ??? 0/5
Greg Pruitt 81 ?? 1/5
WR
Paul Warfield 106
Charley Taylor 96
Charlie Joiner 91
Fred Biletnifoff 89
John Stallworth 80
Lynn Swann 62
Harold Jackson 123 ??? 1/5
Cliff Branch 108 ???? 3/4
Drew Pearson 99 ??? 3/3
Mark Clayton 95 ??? 0/5 Can we give a Marino WR one HOFer? lol
2/4 John Jefferson 61 Swann’s equal in talent IMO. Both acrobats.
DE
Carl Eller 123
Deacon Jones 91
Leroy Selmon 73
Claude Humphrey 72
Elvin Bethea 65
Fred Dean 59
LC Greenwood 101 2/6 4 SB’s
Harvey Martin 96 1/4 DPOY SB MVP ???
TE
Shannon Sharpe 80
Jackie Smith 73
Kellen Winslow 62
Ozzie Newsome 59
John Mackey 58
Mike Ditka 56
Charlie Sanders 53
Dave Casper 52
Riley Odoms 67 ???? IMO was better than Casper in his own division.
Lets just keep in mind that Career Approximate Value is just another means of ranking players, another factor to consider, and the value is also tied to very subjective means of assigning individual player contributions. Its an interesting and helpful system, but has its on limitations and flaws that even its founder Doug Drinen admits limits its application and value as a sole factor in ranking players. A fact illustrated by the number of low AVs in the Hall and examples of high AV players not in. Given that situation I am not sold as to whether it really adds much or enhances the debate about HOFers. Its just another number, and an artificial one at that.
Good Point Paul I completly agree 100% and im trying to remember did someone say that coaches should be moved over to contributors
I think it shows itself to be an accurate assessment with a lot of the players we are skeptical about having low point totals. I tried to compare players in the same time frame as we know player positions have evolved in importance. Of course there can always but an out lier but to me it’s a really good tool.
The only thing is if a player’s career included playing during the 1950’s the AV is not complete.
Very True
Nick Buoniconti was inducted as a Senior.
and was a good seniors choice right bachs
Thanks Bachs,
Nick Buoniconti was the cerebral, intense, tough undersized MLB of the Dolphins No-name D. If so much of his career wasn’t played in the AFL maybe he get in the HOF sooner. To play well after 30 was impressive IMO. He kind of reminds me of an earlier version of a Mike Singletary type. No not as great. lol
I left RB Chuck Foreman 92 1/5 off the list but he has a HOF case because he was a great dual threat. His stats are a little better than Floyd Little. Plus he played on a team that was relevant every year largely because of him.
Foreman flamed out at 28 years old which wasn’t uncommon in that time. Probably just because of advanced training and medical care a great player can perform better until 30 and beyond. I personally think if a RB has 5 years of high productivity in the 60’s. 70’s than he should be strongly considered for the HOF.
Robert, agreed that Nick Buoniconti (5/8/allAFL) is an excellent and deserving HoFer. Should have gotten in as a regular candidate, but for some odd reason never was a regular finalist.
I’ve asked Pro Reference but does anyone know how they “weight” the AV to create two values?
Yes there are discussions regarding moving coaches into the contributors category but no decision as of yet (also not decision on number of seniors and contributors each year starting in 2020 nor a special larger senior amnesty class in 2020 in recognition of NFL 100th anniversary). Suspect it will be next spring before Hall makes announcements on any of these
The career weighted AV is computed by summing
100 percent of the AV of his best season,
95 percent of the AV of his next-best season,
90 percent of the AV of his third-best season, and so on. For the HOF page we do use Weighted Career AV.
Based on that I screwed up my comparison of HOFers to not. Ex. Bill Bergey is an weighted 84. so a senior HOFer at best. I don’t think Harry carson should of complained about it taking 9 years to get in. He’s lucky he didn’t wait 25. lol
who are you to tell harry carson what to do
Robert, it’s actually to no HoF candidate’s benefit to whine and complain about not getting in. If anything, it can contribute to delays. It may have been a factor for guys like Carson, Terrell Owens, and Cris Carter, for three. And heavy lobbying in your favor can be a turn-off as well, as happened with Benny Friedman and may have been an issue with Jerry Kramer.
In general, this kind of stuff is seen as bad form and unwise. Any snubbed player is best served by being gracious about it or saying nothing, especially if they’re likely to get in eventually anyway. The term “shooting oneself in the foot” comes to mind.
Doe anyone know who the GOAT of AV is ? Rice and Brees are 3 and Brady is 2. Never mind it’s Peyton Manning!
Reggie White at 6, Brett Favre 7, Dan Marino 10, Lawrence Taylor 12, John Elway 13, Emmitt Smith 21, Walter Payton 22, Joe Montana is 28, Barry Sanders 33, OJ Simpson 144 hmm.
Robert, I was trying to be funny . lol I didn’t mean Carson literally needed to shut up but I was merely pointing out his AV was only 6 pts higher than another very good LB who hadn’t gotten a HOF sniff in 32 years. I thought he’d be a little more humble but he wasn’t. I should of explained better. lol
I think you’re right Bachs. The fans can speak for the player.
Being redundant but I have no issue with Phil Simms in the HOF but I know many do. The guy’s toughness was a credit to the game. His 91 AV is 3 pts below Namath and Ken Stabler. Theismann at 87 is a bridge too far. I had Simms above Theismann without the AV.
I think these are the 3 best HOF candidates of the older QB’s:
John Brodie AV 99+ “He retired as the third most prolific career passer in NFL history, and was the league MVP in 1970 and a two-time Pro Bowler.” The 1970 MVP Threw for 31, 548 yds with a 55% passing percentage during his career. He was a pretty good runner too with 235 carries 1167 yds 22 tds 5.0 yds per carry. He was the 49ers Franchise QB for 12 years. He missed most of one year and came back to win AP Comeback Player of the year. His QB record was .500 or above in 7 out of 11 years. For the most part his Teams were bad but he made them respectable I believe. He had better players at the end of his career and the record showed. He played with a bad elbow. HOVG class of 2004.
Roman Gabriel AV 98 “In his career, he had a winning record of 86–64–7 and passed for over 29,000 yards and 201 touchdowns. He is the only quarterback from his era to still rank high in the “lowest interception percentage” category in NFL passing statistics. The Professional Football Researchers Association named Gabriel to the PRFA Hall of Very Good Class of 2013.” A great passer will a strong arm. 105 career fumbles are a lot. He had a lot of good wins with the Rams. Still probably there leading passer all time. lol
John Hadl AV 104 Not really in the discussion IMO. Really good QB in the AFL with an all-time great WR in Lance Alworth. And a couple good years throwing the deep ball with the Rams
His career probably should of ended with 1973’s poor Playoff game in Big D when he went 7-23 for 133 yds . After 1973 he was traded to an bad Green Bay team and Houston team. Still can’t see how Cowboys got home game with a worse record than Rams. NFL was messed up ! Miami 15-0 went to Pittsburgh. Talk about the deck stacked against teams. That was probably the 12-2 Rams best shot in hindsight at going to a Super Bowl. Defense showed up sacking Staubach 7 times. Olsen was still really good. Always about the Offense for those 70’s Rams.
No big issue on Simms for me except there are far better deserving players including other QBs as I just don’t see what his case is except for one great season and a SB MVP.
I’m with Paul on Phil Simms and the HoF. I don’t think he belongs in.
The best QBs not in at this point for me are Ken Anderson (non-negotiable), followed by Roman Gabriel and John Brodie (more borderline, won’t lose sleep if they never get in).
And I do not mean to be harsh or disrespectful of potential candidates or their supporters, but just gets frustrating to me to see cases made for players that don’t come even close to the many senior candidates more deserving and who have waited years (in some cases decades to get in) and most never even discussed as finalists by the Committee. Its only when the committee can begin to clear out the backlog of all decade players, former MVPs, SB MVPs, those with multiple All Pro selection would I entertain consideration of others.
Rank Kevin Mawae, Tony Boselly, Alan Faneca and Steve Hutchinson. I believe at least one if not two of them are getting in this year.-
I would start with Boselli (which apparently the voters would agree since he has made final 10 each of last two elections)
Then I would go with Mawae 7(1)/8/All Decade; Faneca 6(2)/9/SB/All decade, Hutchinson 2(5)/7/All decade, but admittedly it could go in any order as all three are 1st team All Decade selections (2000s) and voters could select any and would not be a surprise, or the logjam may be hard to break with split voting but at some point-and this seems like a good year-it needs to be broke open.
And Yes I think two are getting in: Boselli plus Mawae
It feels like Boselli’s election is too much about getting the first Jacksonville player in the HOF.
IMO Boselli is not the greatest LT that ever lived. You can’t make the argument that was made for Center Dwight Stephenson. His last full year he didn’t make All Pro. I personally don’t want Offensive Lineman to be viewed as sensational skill players who have shorter careers.
I wouldn’t respect Boselli AV 66 getting into the HOF. And than there’s 2/7 Richmond Webb 6-6 325lbs AV 99 who was a also a great LT not being there.
Bill, I’d like to know how Boselli compares to Jonathan Ogden who IMO was the best I’ve ever seen? Curious Webb’s AV is higher than Ogden’s 93.
Tony- Good question about Tackles. I have watched a ton of good/great ones over the years. Let me preface the fact that my list takes into the account the era they played in (mostly because wieghts are so different.) I also do not differntiate left to right as many of them started at one position and then went to the other. I also do not include Jim Parker because even thou he was an outstanding Tackle he was truly dominent as A Guard.
1. Anthony Munoz
2. Forrest Gregg
3. Art Shell
4. Jonathan Ogden
5. Willie Roaf
6. Walter Jones
7. Orlando Pace
8. Roosevelt Brown
9. Jackie Slater
10. Gary Zimmerman
11. Tony Boselli
12. Lou Groza
13. Ron Mix
14. Dan Dierdorf
15. Lou Creekmur
Speaking to Ogden, He was awesome, but he had a slight Sophomore slump in the middle of his second season but he recovered nicely and then again during his last twon season. Shell and Ogden are almost splitting hairs. Richmond Webb would be 17 for me in would grade out ahead of HOFamers Yary, McCormack, Brown, St. Clair and Wright.
Bill, awesome thanks for putting into context for me. I don’t have much feel for the position. if I take some of what I’ve seen and heard though I’d say Slater’s greatness moves him up a little and Munoz moves down just slightly because he wasn’t quite the run blocker as the GOAT pass protector he was. But I can’t say who the best is. lol Maybe Munoz still grades out the highest?
I view Webb as Munoz but to a greater degree. Miami never ran too much or that well. I guess Kareem Abdul Jabbar had a good season or two. I doubt Webb will get much credit for run blocking even if he could. Being from Texas A&M I suspect he was decent but really he had one job, protect Marion’s backside and he did it very well.
Boselli wouldn’t be my preferred choice but since I support electing all decade players I can’t really complain about voters looking to elect him soon hence my prediction
does bachs speak for owens or carson nope didnt think so
As much as I like Boselli, I don’t think he should get in before the others on the list. He played 6 years and 3 games. I think he deserves to get in eventually. I think only one OL gets in this year(Faneca). Quite frankly, I’m glad there are so many defensive players as semi-finalists. I think 3 defensive players make it this year.
I think only one OL gets in this year(Faneca). Quite frankly, I’m glad to see so many defensive players make it as semi-finalist. IMO the safety position has been undervalued in the Hall thus far. Id like to see 3 defensive players get elected this year.
I’m under no delusion that I speak for Harry Carson or Terrell Owens. If they want to be dummies who shoot their mouths off in anger at the system, that’s their choice and I certainly can’t stop them. And if having their say is the most important thing to them, hey, then go for it. But it doesn’t help their cases, and historically has at times delayed their election.
And here I thought the whole point was for them to actually get in the HoF, the sooner the better. Silly me, what could I have been thinking?
I don’ t think candidates advocating for their own election or being critical of the process or voters for not elected them are in either case not helping their case. Frankly its best to just keep quiet and let the process play out and when elected or not be gracious about it. But I know some candidates just don’t have the personality to act that way. And would say the same for family members of candidates or fans who go public with writing or social media campaigns directed at the voters to try and sway them to their cause as I doubt that is appreciated or has much of an impact on voters.
Paul, my guess is that the HoF voters ignore fans and family members who are vocal publicly about their pet candidate. The fan advocates think it helps, but I don’t think it makes any difference. If it did, Jerry Kramer would have been elected a lot sooner than he was.
But given the delayed elections of whiny guys like Carson, Owens, and Cris Carter, my suspicion is that the HoF voters don’t much like when the candidates themselves squawk about not getting in and may take things personally. Sure, guys like TO are horse’s butts about this (and seemingly everything else in life) and it’s their choice to behave like this. But I don’t think it helps their cases, and likely delays them. And sure, the voters probably shouldn’t let it affect their view of the candidate. But given past patterns, it may indeed do so.
Any candidate who wants to get in should take the smart route of either saying nothing or being a gracious loser (as said before, the point of this exercise is to get elected ASAP, and I don’t think being a jerk about it helps). It’s also good advice for life in general, at least in my experience.
I agree mostly but don’t you think it might of helped Harry Carson to draw attention to himself? I can see him waiting much longer than 9 years. He wasn’t exactly a player I thought of as great although very good and the clear leader of the Giants D when the Team wasn’t good.
Carson was actually on ballot for the 12 time in when elected in 2006, his 7th as a finalist. I actually have some sympathy for players who stay on the finalist list year after year for several years as it must be disappointing and frustrating to be so close yet get turned down that many times. That is why I often have a soft spot for long serving finalists, since they clearly have support to appear as finalist year after years, nice to see them finally get in. Unfortunately I doubt Lynch (will be 6x finalist in 2019) get in this election,, but reason why I support and hope he gets in in 2020 or 2021.
Some tragic news that former Rams All Pro LB Isaiah Robertson was killed in a car crash on Thursday. He was 69.
Ohh so sad. I’ve been a supporter of Robertson who was part of one of the greatest Defenses of the 1970’s.
I see your point Paul.
As do I Paul and we all know that 2020 could be a great year to clear the backlog
As I recall didn’t Carson want his name removed if I read right
Harry Carson did want his name removed and then did a complete 180 once he was elected. What Harry could not understand was that he was not the slam dunk candidate that he thought he was. Zach Thomas was a better LB in my opinion and you haven’t heard a peep out of him. RIP Isiah Robertson.
Very True Bill could not agree more about zt i have often wondered why zt hasnt gotten that major push needed
The last few years have seen numerous all decade team players appear as 1st ballot, including on defense and at LB, making the 25 semi-finalist list very high quality. Perhaps Zack Thomas just was not able to crack through into that group, but a 2(5)/7/all decade player certainly deserves strong consideration and eventual election, which I can see him starting along that path perhaps as early as this election.
Two Kansas City Chiefs going into HOF this year (hopefully) and another one in 20 years named Patrick Mahomes? lol I haven’t been as excited watching a QB starting his career since Dan Marino. All he needs to do is stay healthy. :)
Mahomes does look like he is going to be a good one, but I was really happy for Rivers. The Chargers this year remind me of that Warner lead Cardinals team that made the SB. Hopefully the Chargers can make that kind of run. If they do, I think that could cement the case for Rivers in the HOF
I’m for Rivers getting a SB ring (would seal HOF career for me) but man it would be bittersweet for San Diego residents and for the Team without a fan base in LA. Also one would wonder if Rivers could of delivered with the pressure of being in San Diego?
I guess if I’m totally honest, if it comes down to the Chargers vs Chiefs I’d rather see the Chiefs playoff maligned HC Andy Reid and his Team get to a SB and win it than Rivers
Bobby Wagner 3/4 is my pick to be the first player from Seattle’s Legion of Boom Defense to be put in the HOF. I know it’s a reach to project. Time will tell.
I don’t think Richard Sherman 3/4 makes it. Earl Thomas 3/6 probably will but after a decent wait if he doesn’t do much more. Until he started getting hurt he looked like a 1st ballot HOFer.
2010s All decade teams (to be announced this time a year from now) could bolster the cases of all three as 3 all pro selections alone (plus SB) is not a strong PFHOF case but all decade team would
agreed there paul
With the finalist list likely to be released in early January, what are everybody’s thoughts on who makes the list?
I think that Reed, Bailey, Gonzalez, Faneca, Mawae, Boselli, Hutchinson, Lynch, Law and Bruce are likely locks. I also don’t think there is a good chance that Flores, Mills, Matthews, Ward, Barber, Woodson or Butler move on.
My prediction for the last 5 spots would be James, Johnson, Coryell, Holt and Seymour, with Thomas, Mecklenburg, Atwater just missing the cut.
I don’t think both Bruce and Holt make final 15 nor will Seymour, so I would replace Holt and Seymour with Atwater and Mecklenburg
im on the same wavelength as paul
After the Dolphin’s Zach Thomas makes the HOF it feels like Miami may wait 50 years or more to get another player in the HOF. LOL Won’t be in my lifetime. :) Players just don’t play well living near South Beach. lol They need a hard nose HC like Shula was in the 1970’s. :) I thought Bill Cowher would of been a great pick a couple years ago. Now I don’t know if a Head Coach can get away with being a Lombardi, Shula or Coughlin ? Don’t you have to be seen as player’s Coach or an offensive wiz kid like the Rams McVay? lol Nick Saban didn’t last long in Miami. He made a D-Lineman cry.
I agree with Paul. I’m not as sure as I once was about Bruce being a shoe in for the HOF. If he is it will be based on the eyeball test and the Team he played for. I never was a supporter of Holt. I’m thinking Atwater has the best chance only because of the 1st Team All Decade.
Do people like Atwater or lynch better?
I definitely prefer Atwater to Lynch and hope that he starts picking up some momentum soon. That said, I think he would be a waste of a finalist spot this year because he is clearly behind Reed and Lynch in the voters’ pecking order.
I would rather see someone like Seymour, Thomas or Mecklenburg make the finalist list this year because they are each the best candidates at their positions (DT, MLB, OLB) and would have at least a slight chance of pulling off a surprise induction.
With Holt, I actually prefer his candidacy to Bruce’s on a numbers basis. But I think it is fair to ask how Holt would have fared in a different system. In Bruce’s case, he had some great seasons outside of the Greatest Show on Turf offense, and it’s likely that this factor along with his superior counting numbers have the voters favouring him over Holt. I think both players are Hall of Famers though. I like both of their cases better than Ward and Wayne’s (who will be eligible next year).
Lynch. I just think he had a little better career and played better when his Team had their most success. I wish both had more interceptions. lol
Using only the eyeball test from what you can remember lol, rank these WR’s : Reggie Wayne, Hines Ward, Andre Johnson, Isaac Bruce. Calvin Johnson, Torry Holt and Chad Johnson?
Andre Johnson
Calvin Johnson
Isaac Bruce
Torry Holt
Reggie Wayne
Hines Ward
Chad Johnson
Calvin Johnson Issac Bruce Andre Johnson Reggie Wayne Torry Holt Hines Ward Chad Johnson
Calvin,Andre,Bruce, Holt,Wayne,Ward,Chad
Calvin, Bruce, Andre, Holt, Wayne, Ward, Chad
Hmm., interesting not much different. I can can see Calvin at the top. He was such freak with his agility at 6’5″. Andre Johnson was tall too at 6’3″ and looked so smooth. Johnson reminds me a little of Tim Brown in that neither had consistent QB play for most of their careers. I know Brown had a ridiculous number of QB’s. lol
And I see top 6 all getting into Hall although it will likely take 10+ elections
I don’t see Chad Johnson getting in. it takes an act of Congress to get Bengals even considered (only Anthony Munoz is in) and he did not have the post season success required if you are not a Freak like Andrea and Calvin Johnson. Ward would not beconsidered if it wasn’t for the success the Steelers had while he played.
I concur with bill about Chad Johnson, I have often wondered why it’s been hard to get Bengals in with the exception of munoz
I concur with bill about Chad Johnson, I have often wondered why it’s been hard to get Bengals in with the exception of munoz
Beyond lack of playoff success, in the current passing era Chad didn’t play long enough at a high enough level to build major career reception stats to be worthy of election when several of his peer WRs will
I remember his antics more than his play. I didn’t see many of his games with Houston always being the Noon game. I saw Andre Johnson a lot!! Most years he carried the Offense. Now at times it’s Andre Hopkins. That guy is an incredible catcher of the ball. :) I hope he stays healthy.
J.J. Watt is having a great comeback year. If not for Aaron Donald he might win another DPOY. I’m not on board with the advocates for Donald as League MVP. Wasn’t Alan Page the last and maybe only Defensive player who was NFL MVP? IMO if LT didn’t get it no one deserves it. lol I suppose there could be a year where no offensive player stood out. I think a winning QB should usually get the award.
Kyle Williams and Ben Watson are retiring from the NFL this year. Ben Watson has no chance at the HOF, but how does Kyle Williams stack up?
Not heavily sold on Kyle Williams for the HoF. 2/5/???? isn’t exactly eart shattering, and I’d probably rank him behind guys like Ndamukong Suh (4/5),, Haloti Ngata (3/5), Geno Atkins (5/6), and Aaron Donald (4/4).
Who? lol I knew Williams played for Buffalo that’s all. Buffalo’s had really good defensive play in spurts over the past 10 years but it’s hard to sustain with no hope at QB. I’ve really liked a lot of players with similar 0/5 profiles but they never make the HOF . Better put Fred Smerlas and Bob Baumhower in first. Plus as far as notoriety he might as well play on the North Pole. :) He’s got no shot! LOL
Btw Lawrence Taylor did get it in 86
Thanks Robert didn’t remember. I don’t know about Donald and the MVP? He had six average games without sacks and only one or two tackles. If a QB has that many I don’t think they win it. Thinking about 1986 I don’t remember a QB having an outstanding season. Marino could of won it with 44 tds and 4,746 yds passing but his Team wasn’t too good at 8-8. Montana only played 8 games. Per usual Dan Reeves kept the handcuffs on Elway. lol Jim Kelly was on a bad team in his first year with Buffalo. They weren’t picking Simms’ average stats even if they were 14-2 over LT’s greatest year.
I’ve got a tough question, which HOF Head Coach has been more impressive, Bill Belicheck or Nick Saban? lol A lot of people say saban would be great if he came back to the NFL now.
Does anyone agree with Tom Brady being selected to this years Pro Bowl? I don’t!!
It really makes me wonder what they are watching or if they even are. lol Tom Brady is 17 on the Passer rating list with a 10-5 Team. Deshaun Watson is number 6 despite running for his life being the most sacked QB this year with 56 which is a lot, What about Andrew Luck with 11 more TDs than Brady? Or Big Ben who’s actually having a really good year statistically, Hell even Ryan Tannehill with 17 tds and 7 ints and 5-5 record has a better rating.
I wonder how many other times voters just mailed it in on a great player snubbing deserving players? Probably a lot. That’s what bothers be because we look at a guy and say, well he only has X number of pro Bowls but how accurate is that? That’s why I guess I really appreciate a guy like Bob Kuechenberg who got the attention of the voters three different times in between missing out. I like when a player has his accolades spread out over his whole career over say 3-4 straight years. Nothing new on thoughts but Brady pick is a reminder. :)
Yea Brady makes Pro Bowl with voting by fans, coaches and players while people complain about writers voting for the PFHOF and suggest former players and coaches should be? LOL
LOL good point Paul.
Brady definitely shouldn’t have made the Pro Bowl. Roethlisberger had a great year statistically and should have been the 3rd QB in my opinion. But with how the voting works, any not terrible year from Brady likely puts him in the Pro Bowl.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet but it looks like the Hall of Fame finalists are getting announced on Thursday evening.
Which name on the finalist list would shock you
Mecklnburg
Tom Flores
Clay Matthews Jr
yep 2019 final 15 revealed on NFL Network on Thursday (Jan 3rd) at 6pm.
here are the finalists im sure about Bailey Reed Gonzalez Law Faneca Mawae Hutchinson Boselli
My gut feeling says Edg James is a sure fire finalist again but maybe not Boselli. We’ll see if Boselli still has the momentum. Maybe he makes it all the way. lol Wouldn’t be my pick. :) A lot of folks seem to be reminiscing about James mostly because of Saquan Barkley’s great rookie season. Seems like when a guy gets brought up in the media a lot they mysteriously end up being a HOFer that year. LOL
Is it because of boselli’s short career
Boselli was in final 10 last two years and I don’t see any reason why that would not continue this election
and the finalists are
Tony Gonzalez, TE — 1997-2008 Kansas City Chiefs, 2009-2013 Atlanta Falcons
Isaac Bruce, WR — 1994-2007 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 2008-09 San Francisco 49ers
Edgerrin James, RB — 1999-2005 Indianapolis Colts, 2006-08 Arizona Cardinals, 2009 Seattle Seahawks
Ed Reed, FS — 2002-2012 Baltimore Ravens, 2013 New York Jets, 2013 Houston Texans
Steve Atwater, S — 1989-1998 Denver Broncos, 1999 New York Jets
Champ Bailey, CB — 1999-2003 Washington Redskins, 2004-2013 Denver Broncos
Ty Law, CB –1995-2004 New England Patriots, 2005, 2008 New York Jets, 2006-07 Kansas City Chiefs, 2009 Denver Broncos
John Lynch, FS — 1993-2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 2004-07 Denver Broncos
Tony Boselli, T — 1995-2001 Jacksonville Jaguars, 2002 Houston Texans (injured reserve)
Steve Hutchinson, G –2001-05 Seattle Seahawks, 2006-2011 Minnesota Vikings, 2012 Tennessee Titans
Alan Faneca, G — 1998-2007 Pittsburgh Steelers, 2008-09 New York Jets, 2010 Arizona Cardinals
Kevin Mawae, C/G — 1994-97 Seattle Seahawks, 1998-2005 New York Jets, 2006-09 Tennessee Titans
Richard Seymour, DE/DT — 2001-08 New England Patriots, 2009-2012 Oakland Raiders
Don Coryell, Coach — 1973-77 St. Louis Cardinals, 1978-1986 San Diego Chargers
Tom Flores, Coach — 1979-1987 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders, 1992-94 Seattle Seahawks
My prediction ended up 13/15, missed on Flores and Seymour ( instead had Mecklenburg and Jimmy J)
Nothing changes my election prediction of Reed Bailey Gonzalez Mawae Boselli Robinson Bowlen Brandt
good selections paul
Well every election has surprises so very possible I am still wrong on a few moderns elected
Hutchinson was a great Guard wasn’t he? That was some tandem with him and Walter Jones on the left side. I know Shaun Alexander got a few yards with their blocks. lol
And just a reminder that the election is held Saturday February 2 in Atlanta, day before SB. Official announcement is during NFL Awards show which starts at 9p EST with announcements about one hour in around 10p EST. But the show is a one hr taped delay which means we will find out around 9p EST as it happens live and with unofficial news often spreading across social media even earlier around 7-8p EST as word gets out usually from the candidates themselves once the Hall informs them in advance of the show taping at 8p EST
As far as modern candidates go, this is my guess
1. Gonzalez
2. Reed
3. Bailey
4. Boselli
5. Faneca
good list Bill
Rivers got past the first test. If he advances past Brady and the Pats and then beats whoever arises from the Chiefs/Colts. Does that solidify him for the HOF, is he already in no matter what. or is he on the outside looking in even if Chargers win Super Bowl. I think if Chargers get to the SB, he will end up in the HOF.
I think his PFHOF case will be a very interesting one for voters to debate, but that gets him elected eventually, a SB win (not just appearance) would greatly advance his election.
With their 2018 NFL AP All Pro 1st team selections, J.J. Watt (5x), Luke Kuechly (5x), Aaron Donald (4x), Bobby Wagner (4x), Zack Martin (3x) all solidified their strong PFHOF cases-plus chances for election to the 2010s all decade teams (will be announced first week of January 2020) as multiple first team selections (especially 4+) and all decade team are strong indicators of eventual election to the Hall. Also note that Kuechley also has a 2nd team making his total 6x, Wagner also has a 2nd team making his total 5x, and Zack Martin as 2 x 2nd team making his total 5x.
I go back and forth on boselli can I be blamed
No!!!! lol If Boselli makes the HOF, has there ever been an Guard or Tackle with as short a career? His election would say to me that he must be the best ever at his position like Center Dwight Stevenson and I don’t believe that. Just my IMO
I guess I’m a tough grader on OL players. Durability matters a lot to me. And my perception at the end of Boselli’s was that his game had dropped off a lot. I saw him in a few games where he was whipped pretty bad and that rarely ever happened at his best.
Durability matters to me also tony p i looked and the only one with a shorter career would be dick stanfel (73 games)
If what I’ve heard from the guys who do film study over at the PFRA site suggest, Tony Boselli (3/5/90s) looks very good on film. But I can also see the durability argument. You kind of have to consider Boselli the Gale Sayers of OTs or not far off that for him to be a HoFer. I’m okay wit him getting in, though his short career makes him a second-tier guy.
Stanfel reportedly doesn’t look that great on film despite his excellent honors numbers (5/4/50s).
Bachs, isn’t there a Tackle from the 40’s Eagle winning teams who had a short career who hasn’t been able to get into the HOF?
Add to Boselli’s lack of durabilty not being on a Championship Team. I’m not trying to trash a great player but HOF is another discussion.
Tony: Al Wistert fits all but the short career description. He’s about standard to longish for the era.
Dick Barwegen and Mac Soeedie are short career guys I support for the HoF from this time,though.
Thanks, I guess I was thinking about the 4 straight AP’s but I see his greatness was recognized with alcoldes in every but his first and last. He looks very deserving si I’m not sure what the problem is?
I can see both sides of the debate on Boselli, and generally not a fan-and very cautious in regards to the short career potential PFHOFers. But I do recall widespread acceptance of his greatness when he played, even though the end of his career came soon and fast. And a 3/5/90s profile is not great, but clear that this selection committee highly values all decade team membership-12 of 13 players on 2019 finalist list are members-and Boselli has moved very quickly into consideration as a finalist including last two elections making the final ten. Would he be a top choice for me in the class, likely not and I would even put Faneca or Mawae in first, but also don’t see Boselli as a terrible choice and if it is his election that breaks open the current OL logjam by collecting enough votes, so be it.
agreed with paul my order would be faneca mawae hutchinson boselli
I’d have to break the players down but I don’t trust the All Decade Team after 2/5 SB MVP Jake Scott got left off the team for 1/1 Larry Wilson. Shows me it can be a popularity contest.
agreed 100% Tony P
Tony P although I certainly agree with your concerns and reservations over the all decade selections, at this point its become an important accomplishment that helps voters separate candidates and the fact remains that they place significant weight upon it. I do think all decade players deserve strong consideration and that not being on a team should not prevent one from being elected. And every factor that one would consider when evaluating players is a subject to opinion, bias and “popularity” and that includes awards, all pro and pro bowls, and even film study (which some turn into a quantitative measure, but that is based on subjective “scoring”). Unless we what the Hall to simply be a statistical evaluation process-which would be problematic for many positions-we have to accept that “popularity” in all its forms will always be a factor in whom gets elected.
Very fair points Paul. Plus there probably aren’t many cases of blatant snubs in NFL history. Let me ask though, do you think anyone would view Jake Scott differently if he was on the 70’s All Decade Team? I don’t know he might still come up short.
Like the Cowboys Doomsday Defense do I think Miami’s Defense should have at least one more player in the HOF. Probably three or four from the Cowboys Same for the Rams who played Defense at high level for many years. Maybe 2/6 Isiah Robertson will sadly now gain attention after his tragic death.
Well Cliff Harris is still not in the Hall
The All-Decade Teams are riddled with problems, unfortunately, and if memory serves, I’ve pointed some of them out before. They include:
-team configurations on the 20s, 30s, and 40s teams not conforming to period, especially with backs.
-Joe Guyon on the 20s team when Verne Lewellen isn’t.
-Joe Fortunato on the 50s team when all his honors came in the 60s.
-Mel Blount on the 80s team when most of his honors and career came in the 70s.
-Jim Parker as a guard on the 50s team (when he played tackle that decade) when Duane Putnam and Stan Jones aren’t.
-players whose careers equally overlap decades getting screwed (Jimmy Patton, Abe Woodson, Randy Gradishar, Ken Anderson for example).
-Bobby Walston on the 50s team when Billy Howton and Billy Wilson aren’t.
-Larry Morris on the 60s team when Chuck Howley, Maxie Baughan, and Dave Wilcox aren’t.
-Harvey Martin on the 70s team when Claude Humphrey isn’t.
-players who had a cup of coffee in a particular decade who appear on that team (Larry Wilson 70s, Ronnie Lott 90s).
-John Anderson and Carl Banks on the 80s team when Rickey Jackson and Karl Mecklenburg aren’t.
-Levon Kirkland on the 90s team when Greg Lloyd and Sam Mills and Pat Swilling aren’t.
-Howard Mudd on the 60s team when Ken Gray isn’t.
-Carnell Lake and Ronnie Lott on the 90s team when Darren Woodson isn’t.
-Jim Covert on the 80s team when Jackie Slater isn’t.
-Lynn Swann on the 70s team when Harold Jackson and Cliff Branch aren’t.
-Eddie Murray and Gary Anderson on the 80s team when Nick Lowery isn’t.
This list is not necessarily complete. That being said, it’s a useful resource — though you have to look critically at it like anything else.
Selecting any such team – all pro, pro bowl or all decade – is always subjective. Just looking at the list bachslunch compiled points out a few clear errors (out of the hundreds of all decade team selections from 1920s to 90s) like wrong positions, split decades, limited seasons played in that decade, or even wrong decades-great job bachlunch! But what is interesting is that most of his examples are different opinions of who should be on a team-and it is his totally right to have his own as did the voters. All decade teams are not perfect, but they have value if for no other reason the Hall voters look at them, and just like all pro and pro bowl selections they are viewed as accomplishments to be considering when electing players. And we can all point to examples of players not on all decade teams have been selected. Recent elections, including seniors, have shown an increasing value placed on all decade teams a shown by the recent focus to elect members of the 1990s and now 2000s teams
I’ve been saying this same thing for years. The All- Decade teams are very flawed
I would not say as a rule that they are very flawed, but clearly there are some questionable and debatable selections. Whats nteresting is that in my understanding the all decade teams of the 1920s 1930s 1940s 1950s were not even selected until 1969. So very likely the PFHOF voters of the time were not well versed in all the players from those decades. Hence they are likely even less valuable today in determining senior candidates to nominate for election from those decades. But from the 1960s to 2010s – with the noted exception of the occasional debatable selection – they are still a helpful factor, one factor, in separating out the best candidates to consider. And I am well aware that the lack of an all decade team selection has likely very significantly negatively impacted a player many would place near the top of the deserving senior candidates-Chuck Howley, who remains one of the few 5 x 1st team All Pro candidates still not in the Hall, whereas an all decade team selection may have very well already helped his case.
Hopefully Chuck Howley is next!! Thanks for pointing out some of slights in history Bachs. Really didn’t want to do the research. lol Lynn Swann is a good example of notoriety or actual performance. I wonder if Harold Jackson is discarded because too many people only think of him as only a bomb catcher? Will never forget him beating poor Charlie Waters for a 4 TD game. Blazing speed can be hard to defend against. lol
I’d say in Swanns case it’s more notoritey
Hard to evaluate the case for Harold Jackson 1(2)/5 as the 1970s was a difficult decade to assess WR numbers and performance because of the rules that greatly favored the defense at the time. And no one or two WR dominated the decade in terms of receptions and TDs, and some like Biletnikoff Swann and Stallworth excelled during the playoffs and SBs. Then you have the numbers and league leader types like Jackson and Carmichael during a decade in which non WRs actually were the majority of annual reception leaders (6 out of 10 years). Currently not in the Hall includes Branch 4/4/3SBs, Pearson 3(1)/3/SB/70s, Jackson and Carmichael (3)/4/70s and all are now senior candidates with not much to separate the four. Branch and Pearson have never been finalists and of course Pearson is the only 1970s 1st team all decade player not in the Hall already. So hard to say which of any of the four will get in but it is a decade with a position that does deserve consideration to have a finalist represented.
It’s unamaginable today that any number one WR would be as selfless as Paul Warfield’ s 29 catches to earn a SB for his Team. I agree there’s not much separation with the 70’s WR’s. I think it will come down to Branch and Pearson to be first. Maybe they never pick another 70’s WR which I think would be a shame.
Antonio Brown and the Steelers is a pathetic situation!! He had great numbers and he still wasn’t happy. I thought the guy was better than that but turns out to be a huge diva. Not all on him but he’s never won anything. Some are likening him to TO when the HOF comes up. I don’t think he’s that bad yet.
Bob Kuechenberg passed away this past week. With the Hall focused on All-Decade team members lately, it’s tough to say whether he’ll get a senior nomination over the next few years. But he’s definitely one of the top 3 guards in the senior’s pool.
The thought that Bob Kuechenberg is one of the top three guards in the Senior pool is something I’d need convincing on. This position has not been well-served by the voters historically and there are a load of bad Senior snubs:
Walt Sweeney (4/9/allAFL)
Dick Barwegen (5/4/50s)
Jim Ray Smith (4/5/none)
Duane Putnam (5/5/none)
Ed Budde (3/7/allAFL)
Ken Gray (4/6/none)
Bob Kuchenberg (2/6/none)
John Niland (3/6/none)
And that doesn’t even count guys who have minimal honors but reportedly look good on film such as Ed White (2/4/none).
I’d probably rank them about as I have them listed in terms of HoF worth above. Today, anyway.
Ken Crippen’s film study site has looked at a handful of games for Barwegen and Smith and graded them out excellently. No idea what film study says about the others. Kooch had the fullest backing from Dr. Z who was very knowledgeable on film study, though interestingly, there’s an article out there where he discussed a number of players with Ron Wolf, who doesn’t support Kooch’s candidacy.
senior o linemen according to my top 30 rankings
2, Al Wistert
10. Walt Sweeney
13. Ed Budde
17. Bob Kuechenberg
20. Winston Hill
21. Jim Tyrer
24. Dick Schafrath
26.Ken Gray
27.Dick Barwegen
28.Duane Putnam
Robert, where would you rank Mike Kenn now that’s he dropping into the Seniors Pool from 2020?
29. Mike Kenn
Thanks BSLO for passing on the news about Kooch. I did not know that sad news.
Kuchenberg had a great career from start to finish and has the accolades to be a HOFer. Until Tom Brady, no football player was part of as many wins as Kooch. He was an important player beyond his play. He was always a winner!
He was part of the greatest offensive line of it’s era. I’ll always remember those bulging biceps and graying beard as he still kicked butts and went to two SB’s late in his career. RIP Bob Kuchenberg .
Easy to misspell Kuechenberg :)
Correction Kuechenberg wasn’t part of the Dolphins 1984 SB Team.
Excerpt from yahoo.com
Kuechenberg was a finalist for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and a member of the Dolphins’ Honor Roll.
”I was sorry to learn of the passing of Bob Kuechenberg, who was not only one of the best players I ever coached but one of the toughest as well,” Shula said in a statement. ”He was one of the key performers on our championship teams.”
Shula said Kuechenberg played with a broken arm in the 1974 Super Bowl and still dominated Hall of Fame defensive tackle Alan Page as Miami beat Minnesota 24-7. That game was 45 years ago Sunday.
Former teammate Jim Langer, a Hall of Fame center, said he stayed in touch with Kuechenberg, spoke with him in the past week and was shocked to learn of his death.
”He was the kind of guy you’d want in your foxhole,” Langer said. ”He played hard and was very intense about the game, which was typical of our team. He was my roommate for 10 years, and we talked football damn near all the time.”
I’m sure some of y’all knew but I didn’t know the great Packer Fullback Jim Taylor passed away in October. I might be wrong but where the heck is the media on giving these great players their due? When I was young former great’s in anything were given more the a cup of coffee notice. Taylor was one of Johnny Robinson’s long time friends.
How ironic will it be if the Rams beat the Patriots in the SB after they played 17 years ago? The Patriots made it to that SB on what many felt was a bogus “Tuck Rule” and the Rams are getting lucky this year with a no call on a blatant interference near the goaline in the last 2 minutes.
The last couple of Super Bowls have been outstanding. Lets hope that this once can come somewhere in that realm. In looking at both teams, it can be fun to pick out the future Hall of famers
Patriots: Tom Bardy, Rob Gronkowski
Rams: Aaron Donald for Certain Possible: Ndamukong Suh, Todd Gurley (needs to remain healthy and productive over next 6 years), Andrew Whitworth (could use two more All Pro Seasons but he is getting up there) possibly Brandin Cooks (Assuming this offense remains on the trajectory it is heading)
I just heard comments that suggested Julian Edelman was a HOF candidate. I;m not seeing that!
Edelman, with his key catches in the AFC championship game (AGAIN), and now 2nd all time in career playoff receptions, is having his name tossed around by some commentators in recent days, but even with those accomplishments-and 2 x SB (to date) – he lacks any all pro or pro bowl selections, so I doubt he would be a serious contender for the Hall at this stage of his career. Has any player been elected to the Hall without at least one all pro or pro bowl selection (at least since those honors have been awarded)? Jim Plunkett also lacks those achievements.
I cannot think of anyone with no Pro Bowl or All-Pro achievements, but two names do come to mind because of their low totals in those categories. Ray Nitshke and John Riggins. Both of these players had few awards but they had significant contributions to the game.
Ray Nitschke- 1x Pro Bowl 2x All-Pro
John Riggins 1X Pro Bowl 1 x All Pro
Some “experts” have Nitschke as a top 10 Linebacker. He played in a ton of big games including Championships and Super Bowls. He was a hard hitter with a nose for the ball. Many NFl people would consider him an “inner circle” hall of famer but often had trouble even making a Pro Bowl Roster.
John Riggins at one point in time was the All time Single Season TD scorer and finished his career with over 100 TD’s. He had longevity and one of the best “over 30” seasons a RB has ever had. He was also extremely significant to the success of those early 80’s Redskins teams. So much so, that most people do not realize that he played his first 5 seasons for the Jets.
Not many people would argue their place in the HOF at the time of their inductions, in large part because they were integrral parts of the NFL postseason for many years. What happens if Edelman has a 9 catch 140 3 touchdown day….and the Patriots get back to the Super Bowl next year and Edelman has played the same type of role. I at least would not say that he has no chance!
It would be an interesting case to have a player with no season or career awards or record stats, especially no All Pro or Pro Bowl selections to get elected. Especially since one would expect that such a candidate would be facing 14 other finalists with those achievements. Just at this point given the history and trends in voting, and deep quality of modern candidates (which I can only assume will continue for many years) it seems very unlikely that such a player could get elected.
I like Edelman as a player and he is clutch but I can’t say he’s better than 2/5 Wes Welker and do we know he’ll be a HOFer? I think so but it’s probably not overwheming.
Does anyone think Riggins gets to the HOF without his monster year? He did a heck of a job building on what’s now a near mythical run over my Miami Dolphins to win a SB. I’ve seen that replay enough. lol That’s how a one time accolade guy gets in the HOF. He became a folk hero. :) That won’t happen again for a long time. It’s got to be a skill player who can capture the imagination of the Nation. It was a perfect storm with Hogs, a Fun Bunch and the Diesel.
I think Riggins certainly benefited from his playoff and SB successes and numbers, including SB MVP. Also if I recall correctly he also retired as only the 2nd player to have 100+ rushing TDs (Jim Brown was the first). But would agree that in hindsight his election is one of the more debatable among current PFHOFers.
I think it was those 100 plus TD’s and his last 3 years that secured it for Riggins. I don’t doubt at all he was HOF deserving. The speed he entered was a little curious to me.
IMO Riggins was every bit the RB equal of 2/5 HOFer Larry Csonka. Notice I didn’t say FB because Csonka had him a on power and blocking but Riggins made up for it in speed . Plus Riggins wasn’t making the PB with Larry Csonka (playing FB for a winner) OJ Simpson, Franco Harris, Larry Brown, Calvin Hill, John Brockington, Floyd Little, Mercury Morris, Lydell Mitchell, Greg Pruitt, Walter Payton, Tony Dorsett, Chuck Foreman, Lawrence Mc Cutcheon, Wilbert, Montgomery and Earl Campbell in the pipeline.
Does anyone doubt 1970 – 1980 was the greatest decade for the RB-FB position?
I agree with you on the assessment of 70’s Running Backs although there was some very good ones in the 80’s as well, the 70’s had more depth. I don’t believe Edelmann is a Hall of famer myself, I was just trying to make the point that he could have one of those “Riggins perfect Storm moments.” As you know a lot depends on the presenters and the representatives in the room. That’s why you look at Riggins now with a discerning eye or Doak Walker or Jan Stenedrud, Floyd Little or Fred Dean. But when they were elected…people could still see the greatness in these players like it was yesterday.
The voting committee today is much different than as recently as a decade ago, more diversity, younger and larger (48 members). Walker, Stenerud and even Riggins – and several other “questionable” enshirees might have viewed much differently today if on the ballot. Little was voted via senior candidate path which has its own issues. I think the standard is higher and the quality of the modern candidates who make the finalist list and those elected much higher and the process more careful and though then in past decades.
I don’t really get Jan Stenerud being the first pure Kicker in the HOF. I ‘m not seeing much difference between Garo Yepremian, Jim Bakken, Mark Moseley and Fred Cox as far as quality of kicking. He gets in because he played the longest and kicked the most FG’s?
Not buying that line of logic in steneruds case tony
I agree with Robert. I’m not sure that Steneud was first ballot material, but only Bakken was close to the level that Stenerud was. Mosely was the last of a dying breed as a “strait on,” kicker and of course is the only special teamer named league MVP but did not have anywhere near the career that Stenerud had. Fred Cox missed a lot of important kicks in his career. To me he was the Mike Vanderjagt of his era. Good numbers until the game was on the line.
Moseley has 73 less FG’s made but played two less years and has more playoff FG’s and like you said was an MVP. Sounds like he’s in the ballpark. And Garo had a better FG’s made but less games and FG’s made. Stenerud played for a lot of crappy teams after the early Chiefs so the pressure wasn’t quite the same as Kicker who played in the Playoffs regularily like some others. Sorry I just don’t see him heads and heals over the others. There a usually a handful of good kickers to me they should really standout he didn’t for me. I mean it’s OK. I thought Garo had the most notoriety in the 70’s and than I thought Moseley surpassed him. I didn’t really feel like Jan stood out so much. Cox was always in the playoffs.
Adjusted for era, Jan Stenerud is the third most accurate place kicker of all time since 1960. Or so says Chase Stuart, who ran the numbers:
http://www.footballperspective.com/the-greatest-field-goal-kickers-of-all-time-ii-part-iii-career-rankings/
Only Nick Lowery and Morten Andersen are better. If this had extended back into the 40s, Lou Grozny would be in the mix.
This more or less jives with Rupert Patrick’s unpublished study, as I understand it.
Needless to say, not a fan of folks who underestimate Stenerud. Or Lowery, for that matter.
Dog-damned autocorrect. It’s Lou Groza, not Grozny.
Best kickers in my mind (must be retired)
1. Morten Anderson
2. Jan Stenerud
3. Nick Lowery
4. Gary Anderson
5. Jason Elam
“Head and shoulders” LMAO
IMO Kickers are as a whole are better today, say over the past 20 years. They sure seem better at kicks over 45 yards which is extremely important. The fact that Moseley’s “made” kicks were 5 yds longer than Stenerud is not insignificant. And to me playoff and game winning kicks are really big. I’d like to see an analysis of that I know Jan hit his share but I believe others may of hit more. Garo hit the kick that ended the longest game ever vs. the Chiefs in Playoffs but all anyone remembers is his SB blunder.
would you say to be fair field goal% are higher then they were 20 yrs ago
No question FG percentages have been rising gradually over the years. Stuart’s rankings take that into account and adjust accordingly.
Agreed with bachs 100%
Someone needs to come up with a game winning kick stats say for the last 2 minutes of a game. It’s not compiled on Pro Reference but maybe is answered somewhere ? The data is out there and should be easy to collect. A lot easier than figuring out number of sacks for older players and someone did that. I could look at all the boxscores on PR for a given player. Not! lol I’m done talking kicking haha they don’t deserve so much attention. :)
Which finalists will have the longest and shortest discussions
Longest: Flores, Shortest: Reed
I believe the shortest will be Tony Gonzalez and the longest will be Champ Bailey
Agree with Paul.
All this talk about about Bill Belicheck being the best HC ever and Don Shula’s name rarely coming up with our great Coaches really irks me. Could add Tom Landry to list of the ignored. All-time wins leader and SB appearances over 17 years. He led his Team to SB’s with a one dimensional Offense with a passing Dan Marino, a 38 year old Earl Morrall and David Woodley! lol People must only look at SB wins
I love Don Shula but he is not in the same realm of Bill Belicheck. You don’t have to just go by Super Bowls. You could go by winning %, playoff victories and a variety of other measurements. Here is my list of all time great coach’s
1. Bill Belicheck
2. Paul Brown
3. Bill Walsh
4. Vince Lombardi
5. George Halas
6. Chuck Noll
7. Joe Gibbs
8. Don Shula
9. Tom Landry
10. Bill Parcells
No Curly Lambeau?
The fact that Belicheck has pushed one of Paul Brown, Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi, George Halas off the “Mount Rushmore” of all time NFL coaches is truly amazing testament to what he has achieved, especially in this era of “win now or be fired”.
And yes I am avoiding a debate on how to rank them as so different coaching styles, successes, influences, accomplishments and eras.
Which of the o linemen has the best shot to get in this year
People forget or don’t know that Shula had a tremendous reputation before he got old and lost much of his fire in the Marino years. It was often said and I believe it was true at the time (about 1980) that “he could take his players and beat you than take your players and beat you.” I think that’s the best thing you can say about a Head Coach. He absolutely got the most out of less talented Teams which is why the consistency of winning is so impressive too me. Shula only had two losing seasons in 32 years.
Realistically David Woodley wasn’t leading the Dolphins to a SB win and they weren’t beating a great 49ers Team in their backyard. So the losses I really put on Shula are SB 3 and 6 versus the Jets and Dallas. No way they should lose to the Jets but in fairness it goes on the QB’s performance and underestimating the Jets running game. Versus Dallas they truly had the deer in the headlights performance. Not uncommon though in a first try buy un upstart Team but should of showed better. Dallas wasn’t at their best in their first SB.
It’s up to the TV media to keep certain people’s legacys alive and they do a sorry job in Football IMO. Lord knows they talk enough to throw in a little history to the audience. Shula is 89 years old. I guess they’ll talk about one day. They always go to Lombardi and Walsh. Walsh was a nice guy but I hate what he did for football leading to the way it is now, :) Lombardi had the most accomplished 10 year run in a less talented NFL that was splitting talent with the AFL. Five of his ten seasons were 10 win seasons. Always the same narrative from the media. Shula had thirteen 10 win seasons in his first 17 years and had been to 4 Super Bowls winning two.
Really Bill, number 8? :)
Paul Brown, Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi, George Halas (along with Landry) are also seen as innovators and had a wide impact on how the league was run, teams operated, and even offense and defense schemes and play calling, perhaps that is why their names continue to resonate with the media and public, while Shula and even Noll do not. I also think Shula gets lost-beyond the undefeated season accomplishment-as his playoff and success overlapped with Noll (4 SB wins) and Landry (5 SB appearances).
I believe getting your players to play hard and smart for you every Sunday is number one. Is it innovating to be flexible enough to mold your style of play to your talent? I don’t think many coaches do that. They gave Shula credit to go all in on the pass after being a run oriented coach. Not sure that wasn’t Marino getting his way over an old Coach. It worked sort of. lol
IMO Shula’s best coaching was from 1974 -1984 because his Teams really over achieved even the 6-8 season which was destroyed with injuries and retirements. I will always say the year after, was his “perfect season” as everyone stayed healthy and the Dolphins steam rolled through very good playoff and Super Bowl competition. And for the Dolphins to even be close to defeating the Raiders the next season in Oakland in “the sea of hands” game was a feat.
Shula’s teams were a lot like Jack Nicklaus in that they rarely beat themselves. I think they had about 10 straight years were they led the League in fewest penalties. After 1985 I believe the fire for such discipline waned but he still had HOFer Marino who was good for 8-10 years when the Team’s talent wasn’t too good. I don’t think Shula was an average Coach than just a few notches from his very best. 22 straight years as a HC in the NFL is a long time yet I think Marino keep him excited that he could keep winning. I doubt anyone tops his all-time wins record. You know for a long time know talked about Kareem Abdul Jabbar all-time points leader but now they do. When you have a great record like that sometimes it comes back into vogue to appreciate.
What could of been if Shula and Marino’s 1990 or 1992 could of gotten by the stacked Bills Team especially to play Giants. Would of had a decent chance. Than AFC Championship was on a silver platter in Miami and they came up small and Thurman Thomas was huge. When it comes to the big games overall talent usually wins out. New England and the Giants are the rarity. Can you say Spy-gate? lol What does that say about Tom Coughlin? He should be in the HOF soon right?
I’m going to base my top ten ranking on results, leadership, innovation and can I project greatness with another Team. Fair or not I knock down a little on Coaches who only won with one team and QB plus lack a little integrity. I’m not a prisoner of the moment. :)
George Halas
Paul Brown
Vince Lombardi
Bill Walsh
Don Shula
Tom Landry
Joe Gibbs
Bill Parcells
Bill Belicheck
Chuck Noll
Honorable mention – Curly Lambeau, Hank Stram, Hank Stram, John Madden, Dick Vermeil, Tom Coughlin, Mike Holmgren, Tony Dungy, Bud Grant and Marv Levy in that order.
im going to be honest tony p you are nitpicking shula to death
Sorry all, I was indulging in my fandom of favorite Team’s Leader in an effort to give a fair evaluation of a Coach that I believe is not appreciated as much as he should be. I know no one else cares. lol
The only change I’d make to my list is put Belicheck in front of Parcells. The thing I like about Parcells so much is he proved he could make any Team a winner. I don’t know if Belicheck could do that to the same level but he is ahead of Parcells.
I love Gibbs winning SB’s with three different QB’s. He was so great at connecting with his players which all great coaches do but he did especially well. He’s done it in NASCAR too. No doubt his style would travel anywhere. Walsh’s genius (rolling eyes lol) would too. :) Halas, just look at his record of winning as a young player through being an old man. . He must of had amazing leadership qualities!!
I don’t believe like so many others that the best QB (Brady) ever and best Head Coach ( (Belichick) ever in about 100 years of football are on the same Team. They are the best tandem and make each other look better IMO. Their record of winning will never be approached. The END!
I forgot Bill Cowher who to me ranks right there with Tony Dungy. If he would of continued past 50 years old he could of had an amazing career. Why isn’t he in the HOF yet? Do you think Mike Tomlin gets into the HOF?
I think its really hard for one win SB coaches to get into the PFHOF-unless they build up some impressive career wins. Even 2 SB win coaches including Flores, Johnson, Siefert and Shanahan (none of whom have impressive career records) can’t get in. Only solution I see is moving coaches in with the contributors, which would first give those four a better shot, and also open opportunities for others including Schottenheimer, Reid, and Reeves a chance-as they are all in top 10 in career wins by a coach.
I forgot about Reeves. He was very good. I wonder why he doesn’t he get the same love of a Bud Grant or Marv Levy.? What he did in leading Atlanta to their first SB appearance, was impressive to me. Can you name, without looking, one of the RB’s on his 3 Denver SB Teams? lol I think he got a lot out of his Teams. I suppose he wasn’t imaginative enough to win the Big One? That’s what Belicick does as well as any Coach ever by mixing it up devising a game plan that confuses the opponent.
I think a SB win and another appearance plus a great record should get you into a serious conversation. It didn’t take Tony Dungy very long .
Sammy winder, Gerald wilhite, Gerald Lang, Bobby Humphrey, steve Sewell. Sorry To disagree with you Tony. I have ll the respect in the world for Shula and don’t disagree with your points ans stats on SHula but I could make compelling arguments for any of the top 10 that I have. Flip around most if you would like, but I am steadfast in my no.1 Belichek
Just watched Dan Marino on Dan Patrick Show. Very entertaining, and Patrick said his passing game was ahead of it’s time with innovation and Marino agreed but unlike today it was predicated on down field passing. I wonder if Shula gets credit for any of that or if he should? He did realize he had the best passing QB in history of the game and went all in.
You’re right Bill about top 10 being all about perspective. So difficult to agree because there are so many different factors when you’re talking across generations.
Today’s media is the one consumed (rubs off) with the best ever business. I don’t remember it being that way when I grew up. I guess Jim Brown was talked about and Dick Butkiss. You were just one of the all-time greats and that’s probably smartest approach.
Is there a scenario in which Bailey doesn’t get in this year
I’ll be surprised if Champ Bailey isn’t first ballot, actually. The only possible scenario where he doesn’t is if he’s made to wait his turn while someone like Ty Law gets in. Doubt that happens, though.
Im pretty sure on three of the inductees bailey reed gonzalez its the last two im not sure on
I sure hope Johnny Robinson gets approved. His announcement in August has been a tremendous blessing to him as he’s suffered some tough personal losses over the same time. It it would especially tough to be rejected.
I think Robinson will get in no problem I’m wondering if one of the contributors will not get in?
Voters could split between Law and Bailey, either nor neither could get in, but Bailey has the edge and I would consider Robinson Brandt and Bowlen all as locks as full committee respects work if the subcommittees to nominate their candidates
I agree Tony with your point on the coach’s. Bailey should be a lock, but I could see a scenario where he waits a year.
My Updated Class Bailey Faneca Gonzalez Mawae Reed
I think that a few years ago, I would have had more doubt about Bailey getting in on the first ballot. He has some relative weaknesses in his candidacy with “only” 5 first-team All-Pro nods (3 1st team AP), and no Super Bowl ring (which all of the other DBs that are finalists have). While it’s hardly his fault, he also didn’t play on many great defenses. On average, the teams he played on finished middle of the pack in yards allowed, points allowed and passing yards allowed (yeah I know, I’m nitpicking). But with guys like Jason Taylor and Brian Urlacher getting in right away recently, I doubt that Bailey has to wait.
My guess for this class is the same as Robert’s (Bailey, Faneca, Gonzalez, Mawae, Reed).
With next year looking like a “catch up” year, it will be really interesting to see who makes the final 10. Boselli and Hutchinson (or Mawae/Faneca if they don’t get in) will likely be there again, and Law and Lynch seem likely as well, but it will be interesting to see if a guy like James, Bruce or Atwater can breakthrough to that stage. I’d also say that Tom Flores is a major wildcard. I agree with Paul that he’ll have the longest discussion given that he had a very successful start to his career and a pretty terrible finish. It’s also his first time “in the room”, so it won’t be like anybody will be rehashing an old discussion. I think there’s an outside chance that he moves on to the final 10 or even gets inducted.
I don’t have much hope for Coryell and Seymour. Coryell doesn’t seem to have much momentum at the moment, and while I absolutely support Seymour for the hall of fame, he’s a 1st time finalist that I think will get lost among a strong group of returning finalists and 3 exceptional 1st-time eligible players.
Julius Peppers…Next stop Canton!
I’ll go Bailey, Faneca, Gonzalez, Reed and ?? Mawae is certainly one of the most deserving but say John Lynch. It’s the year of the Safety.
I just saw Tony Dungy on Patrick Show. Can’t tell me likability doesn’t factor in a little bit on close call HOFers. That guy is so damn impressive! Just like Drew Brees Dan’s earlier guest.
Dungy made the point that picking the best QB’s ever can’t be done because of rule changes. Can’t hit in the knees, head or fall hard on top of. Plus the DB’s got away with so much more back in the day. OMG if you could put Elway, Kelly and Marino in today’s game. Marino said he’d throw for 62 TDs. lol
Warren Sapp says he’s the second best DT of all-time behind John Randle.
Agree with Peppers for HOF but he will wait a while.
Neither one Sapp or Randle are in the top five for me. I would put them in this order.
1. Olsen
2. Greene
3. Lilly
4. Page
5. Randy White
6. Randle
7. Nomellini
8. Sapp
9. Buchanan
10. Kennedy
I think Peppers gets in first or second ballot. Only player in history with 150 plus sacks and 50!!! forced fumbles. Also he missed only 5 games in his career I believe. Hard to believe that Faneca and Mawae might still have to wait another year.
Is tomorrow finally Robinson’s turn?
I’m with William on this one re Julius Peppers (4/9/00s, hugely long career and a ton of sacks). I don’t think he’ll wait long to get in and may be first ballot, depending on who else retires this year and will be first time eligible.
Also agreed that neither Sapp nor Randle are top five DTs all time. Agree with William’s top five.
williams top 5 is spot on and my top 5 is similar except i flip page and white
I have to believe that Robinson is getting in. That would be awful if he does not.
Less than 24 hours to go and I’m certain Reed, Gonzalez, Robinson, Bowlen and Brandt are locks. With Bailey I’m 85-90% certain he’ll get in. I just hope we have at least 2 OL hear their names called tomorrow, with the other two as part of the 2020 Class. OL and DB need to start clearing up that backlog.
Looks like Hall is conceding that trying to hold “official” announcement until tape delayed show airs starting at 9p EST (taped 2 hrs before) is stupid considering news filters out hours before show, and they are hosting live press conference with enshirees at 7p EST soon after they are notified and before they appear on show taping
Thanks, Paul. Great news. My final prediction is Reed, Gonzalez, Law, Seymour, Boselli, Robinson, Bowlen, and Brandt. Just feels like a year with a surprise or two.
Agree no chance Sapp or Randle are in top five. Would put Greene one, Olsen, Lilly, and Page 1a, 1b, and 1c. All such great players.
Justin im not sold on seymour or boselli
Robert: regarding Boselli, the case isn’t that hard assuming one believes he played long enough. I believe he did. I understand that someone could disagree. But once you get past longevity, Boselli is a slam dunk. He was the golden standard in the golden era of left tackles. Three time all pro in a six year career. Beating out five different HOF left tackles: Zimmerman, Roaf, Jones, Ogden, and Pace. That screams HOF to me.
Regarding Seymour, it is an eyeball thing. His stats are pedestrian, but he regularly effected games without showing up on the stat sheet. Not being a film study guy myself or a former player, I can only go by what other said then and since, which is that Seymour was the most important defensive player on a three time defensive oriented Super Bowl championship team. That should be an automatic HOFer. I’m actually impressed that the voters warmed up to him so quickly. It renews my faith in the process a bit that perhaps the committee is capable of looking beyond stats.
It gives me hope for guys like Bruce, Holt, Mecklenburg (as a senior now), Mills, Thomas, Darren Woodson and a host of other guys I believe numbers don’t adequately tell the story of
Agreed that both Boselli and Seymour are definitely HoF worthy, and I think both get in eventually. Boselli may even make it in this year.
Seymour wasn’t a big sacks guy, but his 3/7/00s profile is plenty good qualification.
ok you swayed me toward boselli for this year id like to see 2 o linemen get in this year hopefully one of them being tony b
I wouldn’t be disappointed if Boselli got in. At his peak, he was probably the best of the four linemen on the finalist list. But if you’re going by what kind of overall career each player had, Faneca and Mawae are definitely 1 and 2 in my opinion. They have waited way too long considering that Faneca has no weak on his resume, and Mawae was the best center of the 2000s by a wide margin. Boselli though does play LT, and that’s a premium position.
It’ll be interesting to see if once Boselli gets in, we see another tackle gain momentum. With Jacoby and Kenn now in the Senior pool and Hinton and Lachey about to join them, the best candidates are probably Lomas Brown and Richmond Webb.
One of the reasons I’ve got Peppers waiting a little while is he was considered a premier pass rushing DE with his best Sack total being 14.5 and a lot of 10-11. I don’t think his football career is much better than Kevin Greene’s. Also right in the middle of his prime he disappeared for a year with a 2.5 sack year. No doubt I can list a lot of positives and he’s a HOFer I just won’t be surprised if he waits 5 years
plus.
Boselli is getting to be more high profile in the media and support is there so you could be right Bachs. Question is does being the best for 3 years in a short career get you elected to HOF at Tackle? I thought Ogden ended up playing the best. Both were great.
Seems like great WR’s (eyeball) are a dime a dozen in this passing generation. I wonder how the position will be viewed in the future? More WR’s getting in than any other position? Will they look at their behavior closer? I wonder if Antonio Brown will react similar to Terrell Owens when his time comes if he not in immediately? I would think Larry Fitzgerald would be a 1st ballot HOFer when he retires.
I think Lomas Brown and Richmond Webb are headed for the Senior pool. The voters will likely see both as comparable or less to Hinton, Kenn, and Jacoby. In fact, neither has ever been a semifinalist while the other three have been at some point.
Peppers is a 1st ballot lock, unless Brady Brees and Gronk all retire this off season LOL
It’s ESPN, so take it for what it’s worth, but they polled their 48 NFL analysis on who they would vote for to make the HOF. Not surprisingly, Gonzalez, Reed and Bailey were the top 3, but interestingly enough, Flores and Coryell finished 4th and 5th and Hutchinson finished ahead of all of the other linemen. Every player was on at least 2 ballots.
NAME POSITION 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th POINTS
Tony Gonzalez TE 27 15 6 0 0 213
Ed Reed S 16 22 6 1 1 189
Champ Bailey CB 2 6 13 13 5 104
Tom Flores HC 1 0 6 4 8 39
Don Coryell HC 2 1 3 4 5 36
Steve Hutchinson G 0 1 5 5 3 32
Tony Boselli OT 0 1 5 4 3 30
Alan Faneca G 0 0 1 8 3 22
Isaac Bruce WR 0 1 2 1 3 15
Kevin Mawae C 0 1 0 1 6 12
Steve Atwater S 0 0 1 3 0 9
John Lynch S 0 0 0 2 3 7
Ty Law CB 0 0 0 1 4 6
Edgerrin James RB 0 0 0 1 2 4
Richard Seymour DL 0 0 0 0 2 2
thank God espn doesn’t have a vote
Ok Paul I’ll go with you on this one. lol
ESPN is like the Party I vote for, purely out of necessity, not because I think it’s a great or anything but just the opposite. :). Booger McFarland says the the NFL doesn’t have great Guards in the mold of Alan Faneca anymore with the Offenses going to college style. I guess he didn’t get a vote. lol
Loved and respected Don Coryell but have a problem with him never going to the big game. I suppose this is the whole can’t tell the story of the NFL stuff. I also like Tom Flores but he had really great players and an Owner who was still on top of his game like a Jerry Jones. The best thing he did was manage Plunkett I suppose and than get out of the way. They had plenty of alphas on that Team for motivation. He probably had a good calming effect being a ex- QB. I wouldn’t vote him in but maybe they do in part to being Hispanic . Opps, I don’t think you can say that. lol I call it how I see it in 2019. Got to get representation at every level. Maybe it’s just the cynic in me? :)
Actually Tony you bring up some good points on flores and coryell and yes i agree on peppers having to wait
The vote is completed and Mr Bsker is on his way to the hotel for “The Knock”
Final prediction:
Reed, Gonzalez, Bailey, Faneca, Boselli, Robinson, Bowlen, Brandt.
Where do I apply to be an ESPN analyst? Someone had Flores first and another with Ed Reed fifth. *facepalm*
Fox sports leaked that ty Law got in
Can we put our future posts today under the other more recent topic?
Longest discussions for the modern-era finalists were held on Ty Law (27:16), Tony Boselli (26:10), Kevin Mawae (24:52), Don Coryell (22:37) and Tom Flores (18:54). The shortest was Ed Reed (2:20).
I’m hearing Robinson got elected.
Please post under other topic thanks