The official announcement of the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2023:
Joe Thomas, OT
Darelle Revis, CB
Demarcus Ware, DE/OLB
Ken Riley, CB
Joe Klecko, DL
Chuck Howley, LB
Ronde Barber, DB
Don Coryell, Coach
Zach Thomas, LB
Let us know what you think in the comments below…
Loading ...
Great class and congratulations to all nine – personally having pushed and hoped since 2010 for Chuck Howley it’s a fantastic night!
We are all … The Greatest, haha
Congratulations on all the nominees elected!
Relieved that the seniors and HC made the HOF but many people still believe that too many candidates are being elected, so hopefully for the next two years, these nominees can still get voted in but we will see.
With a fresh post, might as well give predictions on next years’ 2024 Class
Class Of 2024 Wishlist
Gradishar
Wistert
Lewellen
Parker
Peppers
Gates
Allen
Woodson
Nalen
Prediction
Sharpe
Kooch
Gradishar
Kraft
Peppers
Gates
Allen
A Johnson
Woodson
Brian, I really hope Gradishar is in that group next year but I’ll believe it when I see it – expecting the annual, frustrating snub (boggles my mind).
Kraft would be my prediction as well for coach/contributor, but I thought the same thing the past three years. Speaking of that category…was anyone other than me surprised that when they released a list of 25 names they were considering last year, Tom Coughlin wasn’t one of them? Pretty sure he’s eligible…
That’s why I think it will be Kraft … I have happily been glad an owner has not been voted in, but since McNally has been elected, its probably inevitable that another owner will be voted in.
Its time for Buddy Parker but these voters seem to like only coaches and players after 1960 …
If Gradishar shouldnt make it Jeff, its because offense will get favor next year but we will see.
My response to Jeff from the other thread, I myself forget about Jim Ray Smith sometimes, and if I forget about him, I can only imagine how many others – voters and fans alike, have.
I wonder why Verne Lewellen wasn’t on the 1920s All-Decade Team, he sure had a good peak. I’m guessing Dilweg not having all stats on Football-Reference might not help, though I’m not sure how you justify five First-Team All-Pro selections and an All-Decade appearance outside the Hall, but Pre-World War II football isn’t exactly my bread and butter when it comes to senior pool candidates. Emerson is another one who appears Canton worthy – five First-Team All-Pro selections and All-Decade of the 1930s. Considering Dilweg died in the 1960s, that might not do him any favors, sadly.
Then again, Cecil Isbell, someone whom I’d never even heard of prior to him being discussed this year, still was a candidate being considered, so I’m not going to proclaim the sun setting on the older living senior candidates just yet. Isbell had a really good career, but a very short one. He’s probably already in with a longer career.
Carmichael had Pro Bowls, no All-Pro selections, was All-Decade even though Jackson should’ve gotten a spot on there. I’m not sure who was the more bogus choice – Carmichael or Pearson. Pearson getting in before Branch, who didn’t live to see his induction, may forever infuriate me.
2024 early Prediction
Sharpe
Kooch
Gradishar
Kraft
Peppers
Gates
Allen
A Johnson
Willis
would anyone blame me if im not as high on sharpe as other people are
Congratulations to all. Having argued for Howley all over the internet and directly with voters since 2009 this is easily my favorite inductee announcement ever. He should have been first ballot or near it, not having to wait 45 years. He reportedly has dementia and I was concerned whether he would be aware of what’s happened, but I was heartened to see the “knock” clip where he was standing, shook Staubach’s hand, and reacted to the news of his induction by smiling and saying “thank you”. Awesome.
I think there are other old but still living seniors like Meador and Howton who should be inducted next. If deceased players are nominated, I’d start getting the glaring omissions from the 20s/30s in and proceed from there.
agreed 100% Rasputin what would you think of these combinations Gradishar Howton Meador or Baughan Howton Meador
That’s the new question …
Which safety will get elected next?
Woodson or Meador?
So, I thought I’d take the time to respond to Tony from the other thread.
“Corey , of course I still favor some of the old player’s even if I won’t be actively supporting them in writings.
The best WR’s for Tarkington were Ahmad Rashad and Sammy White.
I’ve never supported Cherry or Walls. Both had a knack for the ball. I kind of understand why a lot of the players that are brought up routinely aren’t in the HOF yet. Cherry had some good years but the AFC was weak in the 1980’s. Trevon Diggs reminds me of Everson Walls. Gets beat too much. Great anticipation and receiving skills. I wouldn’t be mad if he got in. A heck of a lot better pick than Ken Riley!! But wouldn’t be in my HOF. Played for some really bad teams where he wasn’t great in those years. He was a HOVG player who finished nice with the Giants. I thought Dennis Thurman
Joey Browner was a big time hitter. I’m not sure he had a HOF career. It’s close! Jack Tatum was a big time hitter too. Browner reminds me of Steve Atwater with a little less staying ability. I’m on the fence.”
Considering Walls was a 1/4 in his career, three times led the NFL in picks and had 57 total, he’s not at the top of the seniors list I’ll be advocating for, but I think there’s some substance to his case.
So, the AFC was weak in the 1980s, but he was consistently among the very best as a 3/6 and 1980s All-Decade member, with Joey Browner having the exact same accolades. I think Cherry *or* Browner would be a better choice than Tatum would be.
Baughan, Howton, Meador, Gradishar are probably my top four living seniors not in Canton.
I could see Meador being elected next. I’m not sure the senior committee goes all defense for 2024, but could go with one of them.
There are some deceased players not in who need to be in, but don’t want that taking away from deserving candidates who are getting up there in age, either.
“would anyone blame me if im not as high on sharpe as other people are”
I guess that depends on the reason. I find myself wanting other names nominated first, but I could see him being a Kenny Easley type of candidate where you could say he’s deserving, just that I would go for others first.
As far as senior candidates, hoping the deck gets reshuffled in July, including players before 1960. If they set a queue based upon last years results, players like Benton, Emerson, Wistert, Lewellen, Barwegen, etc wont make it. I can understand a queue for moderns but not seniors because there are too many deserving players and need good evaluation. Voting only for seen players or team favorites is laziness …
Look at the Centennial Committee that really dropped the ball, only two Pre-1960 players in Slater and Speedie, only Slater was before World War II. They could’ve elected Wistert, opted not to. I think he was a finalist. Why he was passed over is beyond me.
And Dillon, technically Dillon was Pre-1960, too.
What a colossal waste and disappointment the Centennial inductees were, though.
Okay, Sprinkle, so more Pre-World War II/1960 players than I thought, but were they the correct ones? I’m not wowed by all of them.
The Eagles defense and running game should prevail today but Mahomes is the current television superstar going for his second championship, joining four other QBs since 2000 …
The Chiefs will win …
Speaking of Ed Sprinkle…I agree that the Centennial voters really messed up. They had a solid list of 20 players, plenty of excellent choices despite a few clunkers and some sad omissions…and it was almost like they systematically went through and picked the 10 weakest cases for induction. Not to be unfair – some of them were really deserving (I loved Duke Slater, Cliff Harris, Bobby Dillon and Alex Karras especially), but I think Covert and Sprinkle were the two weakest names on the list and both made it. No Gradishar, Wistert, Dilweg, Emerson, Lewellen, Branch? I thought Gradishar was easily the best of the post 1970s players on the list and he was passed over.
On Everson Walls, I understand the argument in favor and it wouldn’t terribly offend me if he were elected (I think he’s a better pick than Ken Riley – not much difference in INTs and Walls had better honors and led the league in picks three times). I like Deron Cherry a little more. But I think there’s a long list of seniors that have better cases. Might be unfair of me, but I’m afraid we have a group of voters that just aren’t all that interested in the long history of the game. There may be a bit of a recency bias and it’s definitely advantageous if a voter like Dungy or Gary Myers “adopts” someone as a cause (Shell, Riley and Klecko come to mind there. As I read in another forum, bodes well for Walls as Myers is pushing his case). Good for those players, but maybe not great for the big picture given the abyss of the senior pool.
I’m not flat-opposed to Walls, though I find myself wanting others who are older and have more honors. He’d be an okay choice, though not top of the line.
I, too, would enshrine Cherry before Walls. Slater, Harris, Dillon and Hill I’d say we’re the best Centennial choices, while Shell and Speedie were alright. But they had a major opportunity to clean the Senior pool up, elect Gradishar, Wistert, Lewellen, Dilweg and Emerson and elected absolutely none of them in favor of some of who have underwhelming cases to begin with.
Where do we stand on Cecil Isbell, a name who’s been advocated for in recent years? He has a couple of things going for him, but I can’t really get behind him due to his career being so short.
Isbell and Dilweg still have their chance if a queue from last year is established, which I hope will not be the case. Isbell just didn’t play long enough and already followed a GB HOF thrower in Herber … Why not sort of do what Robert suggested from baseball, and go for three players from separate eras?
1930s — Dilweg, Lewellen or Emerson
1940s — Wistert or Benton
1950s — Barwegan, Matheson, Smith, Brito or Patton
1960s — Shofner, Howton, Powell(AFL) Grayson(AFL) Katcavage, Boyd or Retzlaff
1970s — Tyrer, Anderson, Scott, Green, Jackson, Kooch, Gradishar etc …
1980s — Cherry, Browner, Morgan, Meck, Walls, Gastineau etc …
At this stage I hold out very little hope for any pre 1960s seniors-until I see this seniors committee actually select one, could be Dilweg or Isbell (2023 senior semi-finalists), but unfortunately I fully expect slots to fill in 2024 semi-finalists and finalist (and those elected) will be post 1960s guys
Senior committee loves the queue so I would expect Gradishar, Bob Keuch and Sharpe as their 2024 finalist…An possible surprises? Maybe Meador
“agreed 100% Rasputin what would you think of these combinations Gradishar Howton Meador or Baughan Howton Meador”
Robert, I think any combination out of those 4 would be great.
My point was Jack Tatum doesn’t belong and probably neither does Joey Browner though had a very good career collecting several PB’s. I liked him with the USC Trojans and knew he would be a good one. Always following in Ronnie Lott’s foot steps. Browner and Cherry can go in after Jake Scott. :) Scott started more games and won Super Bowls.
Baughan, Howton, Gradishar are my top four seniors.
Kuechenberg had a nice career, but why him? What about him stands out over the aforementioned seniors?
I may be wrong but what has probably been on the minds of voters is the fact that Kooch was a finalist six times without getting elected. They may feel they have to correct that wrong but it doesn’t help Charlie Conerly, who was a finalist seven times …
Kuechenberg was 1/6 in his career, which isn’t bad, but nothing that makes me think he should be top of the line or someone I’m hung up on for Canton.
I think Kuechenberg would be fine. Not terribly high on my own list of preferences but has a good case. For offensive lineman of that era, I’d rather see George Kunz.
I’m not a huge fan of Cecil Isbell. Of course, I always really have trouble with players who were really great but had brief careers for whatever reason. There are some that actually bring me some joy when they get in (Kenny Easley, Robert Brazile) but alot of them, unless they’re Gale Sayers, are almost a coin flip to me. I just find it tough to judge. Isbell seems to be in that category. He was clearly pretty sensational but he only played 5 years. Even for the 40s that seems brief. Given that there is so little appetite among voters for anyone from that era, I’d be disappointed if they elected him and not one of Wistert, Lewellen or Dilweg. Of course, seems like they may just do that, as Isbell was in the mix last year.
Sprinkle is the only one that really baffled me the most I’d would have chosen wistert instead
Of the 10 Seniors who missed out from the Centennial Class, Drew Pearson and Cliff Branch have since been elected. Gradishar, Dilweg, Craig, Wistert, Nobis, Emerson, Lewellen and Isbell are still on the outside looking in.
Five of the eight coaches nominated are now in Canton (Coryell, Vermeil and Flores join 2020 selections Cowher and Johnson).
Kooch was apart of more wins in NFL history (no accident a great competitor) until Tom Brady. He could have had more accolades. He never made the PB when the Dolphins run game was all time great but was put on the All Pro ballot by the well known New York Post writer Paul Zimmerman in 1972. He was a LG who made All Pro in 1978 moving over to LT. I remember he played really well despite having nothing close to a LT build. He filled in the next year too because he was needed. He made the PB in his last two years at the age of 35 and 36. He was dedicated to being in great shape. Everyone remembers those bulging biceps and short sleeves ala Mike Webster. lol Kooch was a tough SOG who left it all on the field.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/11/f4/1f11f4e8befca46df807b3d6492a26d6.jpg
Robert, I really didn’t understand picking Sprinkle. You want to pick a forgotten and deserving defensive lineman from that era, pick Gene Brito. I mean, Sprinkle was a good player and it’s not offensive to me that he’s in the HOF, but I think he’s very borderline and there’s no way he should’ve been selected from that particular group in 2020. Not on the list of 20 and certainly not among the ten that were selected – bizarre and kind of infuriating. I think Wistert might have been the single best player they considered that year and to leave him out and induct guys like Sprinkle and Jim Covert is tough to stomach.
Speaking of which…the one that still burns me up more than perhaps any HOF selection I’ve seen in my 40 years of fandom is Covert. Just unbelievable.
Dramatic win for KC … the refs interrupted a great finish but Mahomes delivered an early Academy Award performance. That ankle looked fine on the run down the field to seal the game … Now the 5th QB to win multiple championships since 2000 and the 14th since the 1966 SB … I think
ok Jeff what do you think of these subs: Gradishar Instead of sprinkle wistert instead of covert
KC players with SB Rings
Reid — second
Mahomes — second
Kelce — second
Jones — second … All Canton bound?
Clark — better in postseason than regular
Dunlap — cherry on top of great career
Bolton — Great SB game
Shuster/Scantling — Free agent winners
Pacheco — great ending to rookie year
McKinnon — major contributor
Brown Jr — has a ring but may also leave?
Robert, that sub would’ve improved the class tremendously. In fact, I’d sub Gradishar and Wistert for pretty much any of the players that were actually picked in the centennial class.
I never thought the Chiefs could move the ball on Philly like they did. You have to bow to Mahomes and the OL. A great Offense rarely beats a great Defense. And the KC Defense shows a lot of heart when needed. Kansas City’s run has to go down as one of the best in history though not as dominate as some they get it done year after year. Impressive in the day of free agents always leaving for the money. Andy Reid has elevated himself on the list of great Head Coaches.
Corey and I have discussed another
Senior o line candidate that’s comparable to Bob kuechenberg his name George Kunz. Thoughts and feedback appreciated
If they retired today-Reid, Mahomes, Kelce would all make the PFHOF, which for Mahommes it would be pretty incredible given just 6 year career but the 2xMVP, 2xSB MVP ensures his 1st ballot election.
George Kunz made the 2023 seniors semifinalist list so he certainly on path for eventual election
My big complaint about the Centennial Class I would like to have seen more players from the 1920s 30s and 40s Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell Al Wistert and where was Ralph Hay the man that organized the meeting that would form the NFL
It also left me with questions like if Jimbo Covert is in why is Joe Jacoby out he has two more Pro Bowls
My first thought when David Baker came on CBS to tell Bill Cowher he’d been elected to the Hall of Fame was he’s probably here to remind fans to tune into the Centennial Class unveiling
I think the problem with the Senior Committee is they’re focused on putting in guys they saw play rather than guys they didn’t see play
Players from the 1920s 30s and 40s Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert don’t stand a chance with the senior committee unless you’ve got historians like Bill Belichick (he’s a historian that’s why he was on the Blue Ribbon Panel that selected the Centennial Class) Chris Willis (who was on the Blue Ribbon Panel that selected the Centennial Class) John Turney and Ken Crippen on the panel
ok ill pose this question which 3 players would you add to the semi finalist list of Seniors ill give you two sets of three players see which one you like
Boyd Emerson Llewellen Boyd Llewellen Jim Ray Smith
Boyd Emerson Lewellen but you also can’t forget about Wistert
Thanks for the feedback andy on the seniors that i proposed ok gang what would you think of this senior 2024 Lineup Bobby Boyd Randy Gradishar Al Wistert
I have a feeling the election of players like Jimbo Covert, Harold Carmichael, Donnie Shell, Cliff Harris and Head Coaches Bill Cowher and Jimmy Johnson along with GM George Young for the Centennial Class were heavily influenced by John Madden’s support. I can just hear him talking about the those people with great reverence. lol Especially he did big Jimbo Covert. I don’t think he gets in without huge Madden support.
I hope that George Kunz is on his way to the HOF, but I don’t think it will be this year. Maybe in the next 3 or 4, but honestly Mike Kenn has every bit the argument that George Kunz would have, and Joe Jacoby has his supporters as well. Hopefully all 3 get included in the next 3-6 years. There is still just so many guys that should be included.
Thats a great lineup Robert-but unfortunately it won’t happen as first step that needs to happen is get Boyd and Wistert into the semi-finalist list. And once Bob Keuch is elected (appears to have support of the committee) it will open a path for other OL including Kuntz and Jacoby
My sense is looking at the 2023 finalist there is a pretty clear queue (and it has been queues that got 2021, 2022 and 2023 seniors elected) and that is Gradishar, Bob Keuch and Sharpe, next is Meador, Baughan, Anderson, Nobis-followed by Walls, Isbel. Is it possible that a replacement to fill the now vacant 2023 finalists, jumps that queue and gets selected for 2024-doubtful in my mind, but yea one could slide into the next queue 4-6 slots in 2024.
You know who my most wanted contributor after Robert Kraft is Clint Murchison
As the founder and original owner of the Dallas Cowboys the builder of Texas Stadium the man who hired Tom Landry Tex Schramm and Gil Brandt a risk taker game changer 20 consecutive winning seasons 15 seasons with 10 or more wins 17 playoff appearances 5 Super Bowl appearances and 2 Super Bowl championships you can make a case that Clint Murchison deserves a bust in Canton
https://www.clintmurchisonjr.com/
He was among the Centennial Class finalists but wasn’t elected he was among the Coach Contributor semi finalists last year but didn’t make the final 12
I don’t get why Clint Murchison the man who founded America’s team doesn’t get talked about for the Hall of Fame he’s also not in the Cowboys Ring of Honor which is shocking
The coach/contributor committee needs to address this after Robert Kraft gets elected it’s time to honor Clint Murchison with a bust in Canton
Sorry for the long post and I know this is a place to debate but Clint Murchison needs to be in Canton it’s one of Canton’s biggest snubs and it needs to be corrected
Haha … owners can wait
Yeah, I dunno – I understand that Murchison is an important guy and all…but Jerry Jones, Brandt and Schramm are all in. Might be enough Cowboy contributors/coaches for now. Personally, I don’t have a huge appetite for owners and other contributors in the HOF. There’s certainly room but I think they should be few. I was not a big fan of the decision to take away a senior slot and start adding an annual contributor category.
Responding to Tony P. – You could be right but seems like if Madden had an outsized influence on that 2020 class then Cliff Branch would’ve made it. I know Madden was of course a big supporter (maybe Flores as well). I have a feeling that Tony Dungy was a big reason Shell got elected (same for Ken Riley this year). Supposedly they liked Jim Covert because a). they were impressed that he was first-team all decade and b).he did well against LT (a certain coach of LT’s was on that committee). Thing is, they barely played against each other. Just 2-3 games, including the 1985 playoff game. If that’s the case, Covert’s election looks even worse. You have an offensive tackle basically jumping the line (skipping right over Jacoby and Kenn) and getting inducted out of nowhere largely because of how he played in one single divisional playoff game.
Covert only played 8 years … Kenn or Jacoby should have gotten that spot. I think it was politics. Voters felt that if Payton was so good, someone on the line had to be deserving but Madden thought the center, Hilgenberg was their best lineman …
Yeah Jeff I could be off base, good point about Branch. I remember thinking that was strange. Maybe there was feeling Drew Pearson should come first? I’m just thinking Madden carried a lot of weight in the room. Everyone admired him so much. I know he loved to talk about Covert. I don’t know who his favorite was. It seemed like he had such enthusiasm for so many players. I think Brett Favre was his favorite but he had a special place in his heart for offensive lineman.
I honesty don’t recall Kunz very well. I’m sure I saw him when he played for the Colts and he was talked about. From what I read he sounds deserving of the HOF but he’s never been that much on my radar. You have to remember it wasn’t easy to follow players accolades back in the day. I got the Pro Football Weekly newspaper in the later 70’s which was a great source for the weekly games stats and stories and read Sport magazine every month in the throughout the 1970’s. But mainly it was what you got in your local paper on Monday Morning. I was always eager to study the stats before school in the morning lol And than Howard Cosell was huge on MNF. And than Pat Summerall and Tommy Brookshire did their weekly highlights on one game a week. I don’t know if that was shown in my area for a lot of years. We only had three TV stations. LOL I really respect the players Pro Football Weekly chose for Pro Bowl and All Pro. They really covered sports well.
I don’t see the pressing need to have Kuechenberg, per se. The senior pool would have to really dry up for my support. Good, not an omission I lose sleep over.
Jim Covert – 2/2/1980s
Wistert 1/4/1940s, and most Wistert’s career came before the Pro Bowl.
Covert – Hall of Fame
Wistert – Not
Say what? Hilgenberg would’ve been a much better choice. 2/2 is a good player, not a Hall of Famer. I got into it a little with football writer Russell Baxter on Twitter with me having issues with some All-Decade choices through the years and he seemed taken aback by that. Uh, yeah, when Baughan makes nine Pro Bowls in a single decade while Larry Morris never makes a Pro Bowl in his whole career, with Morris being All-Decade and Baughan, I’m going to take issue. To be All-Decade, you should be great throughout, or at least for most of the decade. 2/2 is good, not great, certainly Canton worthy.
If Isbell played 2-3 more years, he’d have my support. Emerson, Wistert, Dilweg and Lewellen would’ve been substantially better choices than Carmichael, Covert and Sprinkle. I myself could live to be 100 and I’ll still probably be salty about how bad the Centennial Committee dropped the ball.
I got to be honest, I forget about George Kunz sometimes, just as I forget about Jim Ray Smith from time-to-time, but at 1/7 and 3/5 respectively, both would be solid choices, though I’d give the nod to Smith first as he’s almost 91. Give me Kunz over Kenn or Nobis.
Boyd certainly wouldn’t be a terrible choice for Canton – not like Dave Robinson, Carmichael, Covert, Sprinkle or Crying Drew Pearson, but I don’t see him as a pressing need, would be a better choice than Kuechenberg or Isbell. Pearson going in over a statistically superior Cliff Branch is hard to forgive that one.
Haha … I cried with joy when Pearson got elected. He was making plays for my favorite player and team while I was going through a difficult puberty with a nagging stepmom …
The Cowboys were escapism for me even when they got beat … nothing better on television
I am also glad that two players, who I endorsed on this and numerous sites, finally got there due for the PFHOF with Chuck Howley and the HOVG with Tony Latone, who should also be in the HOF but is virtually unknown in this century …
if any bears lineman was more deserving than covert id would have to say either van horne or hilgenberg in my honest opinion
2nd of all which 3 players would you like to see come on the 2024 senior ballot who would you add who would you subtract?
I don’t know enough about Tony Latone either way, so I won’t go there.
Cliff Branch and Drew Pearson were First-Team All-Pro three times each, with Branch being a four-time Pro Bowler to three for Pearson. Branch posted 501 receptions, 8,685 yards and 67 touchdowns to 489 catches, 7,822 receiving yards and 48 touchdowns. While Branch finally got in, deservedly so, Pearson cried his way in before Branch did, with inferior numbers, while Branch wasn’t enshrined until after his passing. Not to mention Pearson got in while Harold Jackson is still waiting, and I may never stop griping about Jackson’s snub from the 1970s All-Decade team.
Keith Van Horne? In the Hall of Fame? He never made a Pro Bowl or an All-Pro selection in his career. He’d be worse than Covert. Seven Pro Bowls, two First-Team All-Pro selections for Jay Hilgenberg. He had some very stiff competition at center in the 1980s with Stephenson and Webster making All-Decade, doesn’t change the fact he’d be a much better selection for Canton than Covert was.
Who would I like to see on the senior ballot, you mean people who haven’t been on there before? Well, Baughan, Gradishar and Meador have all been on there, hopefully to be enshrined soon.
The three players I would add: Jim Ray Smith, Billy Howton, Del Shofner. The players I would subtract: Cecil Isbell, Bob Kuechenberg, Tommy Nobis.
Kenn was an All-Pro one time more than Kunz was – two to one, but Kunz had seven Pro Bowls to Kenn’s five, though Kenn was an ironman, starting all 251 games that he played in his career.
Kenn was more durable than Kunz was, so maybe a lot of time missed in his career is why Kunz isn’t discussed more, but he made the Pro Bowl as a rookie in 1969, and six out of seven times from 1971 through 1977, making All-Pro once, though he played in just one game in 1978, missed all of 1979 and retired in 1980, having started six out of nine games.
I do think Kunz ought to be considered more, as it’s not like players’ injury problems kept them out of Canton. It’s not like Isbell suffered a career-ending injury or risked facing paralysis a la Sterling Sharpe. Isbell quit football as a player to go coach, which was something he later regretted.
From Gosselin’s State Your Case article on Kunz: “A knee injury cost him five games in 1970 – and also his spot in the Pro Bowl. Healthy again in 1971, Kunz returned to the Pro Bowl – the first of seven consecutive Pro Bowls before suffering that back injury in 1978.”
The man was ticketed for a Hall of Fame career before injuries got in the way. I’d say that he accomplished enough to warrant enshrinement anyway.
I think Clint Murchison has a strong case…but even as a Cowboys fan since 1977 (and very familiar with their entire history) I am not so sure he is more so than most of these contributors- Roone Arledge, Frank “Bucko” Kilroy, Robert Kraft, Art Modell, Art Rooney Jr., Clark Shaughnessy and John Wooten.
I would love to see Tommy Nobis in the Hall of Fame
What hurts his case is that the Falcons teams he played on were terrible they went 50-100 with a winning percentage of 333% in his 10 seasons they had just two winning seasons he never played in a postseason game
Falcons CEO Rich McKay says he belongs in the Hall of Fame here’s a letter Rich McKay wrote in support of Tommy Nobis
https://www.atlantafalcons.com/news/it-s-time
You want to know an interesting fact about Tommy Nobis not only was he a good player but off the field he was an even better human being he formed a job center that helps people with special needs like me
https://tommynobiscenter.org/
Andy, it’s hard for me to support Nobis with Baughan and Gradishar still not in. Furthermore, let’s say Baughan and Gradishar finally get the well-deserved and overdue busts in the next 2-3 years, you do realize it’ll be hard to stand out in the linebacker realm of the senior pool, right?
What would separate Nobis from Fortunato? Stratton? Grantham? Bergey? Curtis? Russell? I will concede he’d be a better choice than Jordan, whom I’m not sure belongs in Canton to begin with, but once Baughan and Gradishar are elected, of which I am optimistic, what about everybody else, plus Matt Blair, Isaiah Robertson? Good luck sorting all of that out, not to mention some big senior snubs at other positions.
Nobis is in the Kuechenberg category where I find so much ahead of them that the senior pool must really be cleaned up for them to have my support.
I will say I’m sorry you have to go through what you’re going through, but it’s good to know he was a kind man who helped you out. If you’re better because of him, that’s awesome.
What Guard is ahead of Kuechenberg? None in my book after Jerry Kramer. I don’t understand why Owner Carroll Rosenbloom is always left off the potential HOF list.
“Rosenbloom amassed the best ownership winning percentage in league history (.660), a total regular season record of 226 wins, 116 losses and 8 ties, as well as 3 NFL championships (1958, 1959, 1968), and one Super Bowl (V).[4]
Rosenbloom has been described as the NFL’s first modern owner and the first players’ owner.[4] Rosenbloom was part of the NFL inner circle that negotiated the league’s network TV contracts with NBC and CBS and the NFL/AFL merger, both of which contributed to professional football becoming both profitable and the most watched spectator sport in the United States.[4][5][6]”
Since all the others here have done it here are my predictions for seniors and contributor
Randy Gradishar
Bob Kuechenberg
Sterling Sharpe
Robert Kraft
‘What Guard is ahead of Kuechenberg? None in my book after Jerry Kramer.’
Well, I for one would enshrine Jim Ray Smith before Kuechenberg, but that might just be me, Ox Emerson is another one.
I’d also argue for Ed Budde and John Niland over Kuechenberg.
Heres my thinking and corey knows my opinions on baughan and Gradishar im in full support of Budde and Niland id also add another deserving o linemen ahead of kuechenberg his name dick schafrath
There’s also Barwegen and Putnam who also have an edge on Kuechenberg in some ways. Putnam made more All-Pro teams, just one fewer Pro Bowl. Barwegen made more All-Pro teams, was All-Decade.
I think it was bachslunch who’s mentioned Ken Gray on here, he was 1/6 like Kuechenberg. Nobody’s advocating for Gray, even though Super Bowls are a team accomplishment and he didn’t have two Hall of Famers blocking with him on the same line.
ive mentioned gray several times in the past corey
In my opinion the Blue Ribbon Panel in electing the Centennial Class did a solid overall job in electing 15 worthy players coaches and executives I really didn’t have a problem with any of the selections but I respect your opinions
There are 3 coaches 8 players and and 6 executives remaining from the Centennial Class finalists here’s who they are
Coaches
Mike Holmgren
Buddy Parker
Dan Reeves
Players
Roger Craig
Lavvie Dilweg
Ox Emerson
Randy Gradishar
Cecil Isbell
Verne Lewellen
Tommy Nobis
Al Wistert
Executives
Bud Adams
Ralph Hay
Bucko Kilroy
Art Modell
Clint Murchison
Seymour Siwoff
I did a calculation 21 of the 38 Centennial Class finalists have been elected or 55% of the candidates
I’m thinking Lewellen might be my pet project on Pre-World War II players. He was First-Team All-Pro every year from 1926-1929, somehow wasn’t on the 1920s All-Decade Team. Then I read a quote from Johnny Blood that Lewellen should’ve been there with him on the stage in the very first class, and he still has no bust.
It’s harder to gauge those older players, but I seem dumbfounded at a lack of respect Lewellen has gotten, during his lifetime and after it.
Yeah, I’m kinda shocked that Verne Lewellen was never elected. I find it pretty amazing that according to Pro Football Reference, he was once the league’s all-time leader in rushing (and total) TDs. And his total is probably an underestimate. Despite retiring in ’32 he remained near the top of those categories into the 50s, and didn’t fall out of the top 10 until the early 60s. That’s pretty amazing – it’s kinda like having a top 3 career NBA scorer for 30 years that never makes the hall of fame.
The 20s all decade team is a little silly – I think it was named in the 60s or 70s an I’m guessing they used players who were already in the HOF to name the team. I’m also guessing that by 1970 voters decided they’d done enough to represent the early days of the NFL and moved on, and a lot of deserving layers were just forgotten.
I stand by what I said, No one ahead of Bob Keuchenberg. I’m Ok with Budde and Niland being beside. :) I know about Ox Emerson. He played for my Texas Longhorns back in the day. A good player but IMO didn’t start enough games. Maybe that’s not fair for the time but it’s not like he was Red Grange, he was a Guard.
As far as Tackle 3/6 Dick Schafrath, I’ll go with what has been said that he didn’t grade out that well in film study. There must be a reason he’s being passed over.
I think Gradishar and Harold Jackson are the most deserving players at the moment. They shouldn’t wait any longer. Also if they are going to put him in, lets do Roger Craig now.
Jeff, I didn’t know all of that about Lewellen. My goodness. And if the All-Decade selections for the 1920s came in the 1960s or 1970s, that would be another flaw at the time – Baughan and Howley being snubbed on the 1960s team, Harold Jackson being snubbed on the 1970s team.
Is it possible his records were simply broken and then he was just forgotten about?
You can’t represent the early days, or any era, of football or another sport properly if the best players from that era aren’t in. What I know about Lewellen tells me he was one of the best of his time.
Tony, Emerson was a six-time First-Team All-Pro and a selection to the 1930s All-Decade Team. Kuechenberg was All-Pro just once and never an All-Decade selection. Anybody who’d be First-Team All-Pro six times and an All-Decade member today, we’d call them a Hall of Famer without batting an eyelash. It isn’t unprecedented to induct a lineman, or any position player, with a short career, for that matter, given Dwight Stephenson and eventually Dick Stanfel were given busts in Canton.
I *can* support Roger Craig for Canton, given he was 1/4, Offensive Player of the Year and a member of the 1980s All-Decade Team and he was Marshall Faulk before Marshall Faulk, but I cannot justifiably push for him over players still with us above the age of 80 who haven’t gotten enshrined yet.
Concerning Kuechenberg, Budde and Niland, Budde *did* make AFL All-Star Game/Pro Bowl every year from 1966-1971 and was also an All Star as a rookie in 1963. Twice he was First-Team All-AFL and twice Second-Team All-AFL and a member of the All-Time AFL Team. If Tyrer won’t be enshrined for obvious and understandable reasons, Budde would be a fine alternative from that Kansas City line.
Pro-Football Reference has Niland as a 3/6, having made the Pro Bowl every year from 1968 through 1973 and being key on some great Cowboy teams. I’d have to oppose election for Charlie Waters and Lee Roy Jordan with respect to Cowboys from that era. John Niland and Cornell Green, however, wouldn’t be the worst choices. I thought Harris was a really good choice, Pearson was a poor choice and Howley was a home run choice.
Pearson a poor choice why he was the only 1st team All Decade wide receiver not in but I respect your opinion
Let me guess is it because he cried on tv when he wasn’t selected and was selected a year later
‘Pearson a poor choice why he was the only 1st team All Decade wide receiver not in but I respect your opinion’
Again, I feel All-Decade Teams were flawed. He was statistically inferior to Cliff Branch, but got in before he did. Not to mention, he was statistically inferior to Jackson, who led three categories of receptions, yards and touchdowns in the 1970s.
Pearson led the league in yards once, never in catches or touchdowns. Jackson led the league in yards twice, catches once and touchdowns once.
I will always defend Harold Jackson as an All-Decade snub. He should’ve been enshrined by now instead of Pearson.
The 20s 30s 40s 50s 60s all decade teams were all selected in 1969 by the PFHOF selection committee (the voters) as part of NFL 50th Anniversary
i dont mean to be rude or disrespectful but the pearson arguments have been done to death and we really need to move on
‘The 20s 30s 40s 50s 60s all decade teams were all selected in 1969 by the PFHOF selection committee (the voters) as part of NFL 50th Anniversary’
So, they had the wisdom to put Dilweg on the 1920s team and Emerson on the 1930s team but not Lewellen on the 1920s team?
Let’s take a look at this Clark Judge piece on Lewellen.
‘ “I believe Lewellen is one of a handful of players who deserves to be in the discussion about the greatest Packers’ player ever,” said Christl.
He didn’t say greatest Packers’ player not in Canton. He said the greatest Packers’ player …’
That’s a pretty profound proclamation, don’t you think? He was, from I’ve read, also an outstanding punter.
Some people never get their dues. Verne Lewellen seems to be one of them.
Yea all decade and all pro teams are it perfect, but at this stage don’t see debating voters electing a first team all pro and 3x time all pro player in Drew Pearson – those selections were made and focus should be on others with similar profiles not getting in or heck those with even less accomplishments elected
Are not prefect
I agree Paul. it is an imperfect election process. I don’t have issue with Pearson though it was close for me but take the accolades away and the fact he only went to 3 Pro Bowls and I’d say he sure was a HOFer. We get too caught up in number of Pro Bowls and All Pros and to some degree stats. I certainly don’t believe it was a slam dunk Cliff Branch was ahead of him and more deserving though I favored Branch. They weren’t that far apart.
One only needs to look at the players being elected to the HOF. I don’t think you can necessarily say this player got x number of Pro Bowls or All Pros so they should be elected . It’s too simplistic. Of course we’d like to say every Pro Bowl especially was earned but we know different. I think it can go both ways as we are seeing players with lesser accolades like 1/0 Ken Riley, 0/4 Issac Bruce, 0/3 Dick LeBeau, 0/4 Harold Carmichael and 2/2 Jimbo Covert. And I don’t say Bob Keuchenberg deserves to be in the HOF because he is a 1/6. I say it because I saw him play his whole career and he had the reputation as one of the best Guards. Also I like my HOF OL players to have been durable and he certainly checks that box. It wouldn’t matter if he was 1/3 to me. lol
Accolades may not be perfect but that them away and beyond stats (which many positions don’t have or they don’t tell story of their impact) what do we have left? My annoyance at the constant gripping over Pearson is that he’s far from the most questionable PFHOFer but too many people focus on him and not the likes of Dave Robinson or many others just or even more less deserving
Yeah I don’t think the criticism can be much about football with Pearson. I think it’s Cowboy hate and the way the media caught him being upset over not being selected.
Yes Pearson made a mistake in inviting a film crew into his house to record his reaction to what he thought would be his election to the 2020 Centennial class. But those finalists were also used by then PFHOF President Baker who set up arrangement when the class seniors (10 out of 20 finalists) were announced spread over 2 hrs on the NFL Network morning show-we call that cruel and unusual “punishment”. So yea he was upset and caught on film, and he’s an emotion and passionate guy. But other deserving senior finalists from that class made public comments about the outcome and process, including Randy Gradishar for one. And that reaction is less of a reason why he was elected in 2021 and more a result of start of trend we have seen with seniors, coaches and contributors as the regular committees work to correct some clear wrongs in the centennial class to electing those left out-a process that we will continue to see in coming elections.
Its still cool to see Zack Thomas make the HOF … I can still remember thinking the Dolphins were dumb choosing him as a rookie over Jack Del Rio, who I thought Jimmy Johnson was punishing for Del Rio leaving the up and coming Cowboys in 1992. Thomas impressed right from the get go. His instincts were off the charts. John Offerdahl had been a good linebacker for Miami as well but had injury problems. Like you guys have taught me, the voters will respect and follow the queue though I believe first ballot picks in Revis and C Johnson could have waited like Ware.
John Turney speculated that voters may not put Peppers in at first ballot but we will see.
In an article on TalkOfFameTwo, Ronde Barber thought Steve Smith or A Johnson should be the next receiver voted in but thought it was tough to seperate the group.
I think next year at least one will make it.
Could Albert Lewis or Clay Matthews Jr affect the senior queue in July?
Has anyone said anything about Hines Ward? i think he might do pretty well as a new Head Coach. He played a hard nose style for a WR. I can’t think of any player like him off the top of my head. He liked to hit. lol
Eric Bieniemy has been unsuccessful nailing down a HC job. Seems like if he really wants it he could go to Canadian or USFL football to be a HC and prove himself as a leader? It worked for Bud Grant. Now Hines Ward is a USFL HC.
“Could Albert Lewis or Clay Matthews Jr affect the senior queue in July?”
Could they make the 25 semi-finalist list-sure, could they be among 12 finalists-possible but seems unlikely. But I do think given time, Lewis will see his case advance in process.
Hines Ward seems to have his support among some voters (Gosselin) but like Steve Smith, seems hard to believe that any other WR besides Johnson, Holt, Wayne gets any further in process until at least 2 of those 3 are elected, could be 2024 or 2025. And then in 2026 Larry Fitz joins ballot and immediately jumps to top of WR queue.
I know voters have the mess at WR, plus Allen and a few other solid 2023 finalists to look at next year (Willis? Anderson?) but I find it hard to believe that they would not elect a 2x all decade team player in Peppers with 6x all pro (3x first team), with 159.5 sacks-4th all time. Could he get held back like Ware was in 2022 to make room for last year modern candidate (Mills) or player with push (Young), perhaps but at least now hard to see who such a player might be while many others including voters have already expressed view that Peppers will be first ballot next year. Heck I think with 116 career TDs (7th all time, most for TE), that Gates has strong case for 1st ballot in 2024
With Peppers you have 11 interceptions and over 80 tipped passes-deflections as well, not to mention the forced fumbles, recoveries and TDs scored. His career is how Ed Jones career should have been.
Bieniemy is the OC with the Redskins now TonyP …
Ward was so physical with the Steelers, he should have ran the ball more like Deebo Samuel but Bettis was the bell-cow …
If one of the wide receivers is elected next year it will be Torry Holt because he’s been waiting the longest he’s been a semi finalist nine times next year will make it ten
Also the Hall of Fame used to post snippets of the voters presentations and the ballot that’s going to be used for voting on Twitter but they haven’t the last two elections I wonder why
I know about Bieniemy but I was thinking instead of looking like a victim it may be good to do a different move if the goal is the be a HC. I’m not sure if it has much to do with being in the shadow of Andy Reid as some think but we will find out if he can have some success with the Redskins. opps! I did it too! lol
Ed Jones was a Cowboys fixture playing so many games and well known to everyone but only HOVG of this I’m certain. In some ways he reminds me of 0/2 Jim Marshall. He had his moments but not great enough. Marshall was the Cal Ripken of football. lol
Is the younger 1/6 Clay Matthews good enough to get elected as a modern HOFer? Senior? His sacks are impressive with 91 but he tackles seem a little light with 500. His AV is 95 the same as WR Mark Clayton. Could go either way IMO. Any Packer fans out there? lol
Any comments?? This is the Pro Reference HOF Monitor scores for the bottom half of OLB. Dave Wilcox is the lowest number ever in the HOF
Player HOFm Chmp AP1 PB St From To wAV G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD Sk Comb Solo Ast TFL
Isiah Robertson 62.78 0 2 6 11 1971 1982 103 168 159 25 349 3 76 24.5
Maxie Baughan 61.95 1 1 9 11 1960 1974 88 147 143 18 218 1 33 24.5
Robert Brazile 60.75 0 2 7 10 1975 1984 76 147 147 13 201 0 33 48.0
Lance Briggs 59.45 0 1 7 12 2003 2014 98 173 170 16 256 5 74 84 15.c181 944 237 97 24
T.J. Watt 57.93 0 3 5 5 2017 2022 66 87 87 6 24 0 17 37 77.5333 243 90 88 162
Greg Lloyd 56.73 0 3 5 9 1988 1998 88 147 139 11 189 0 52 54.5 791 707 84
Andy Russell 56.60 2 0 7 12 1963 1976 84 168 162 18 238 1 45 38.0
Mike Stratton 53.55 2 3 6 11 1962 1973 78 156 134 21 250 1 26 31.5
Ken Norton Jr. 53.53 3 1 3 12 1988 2000 81 191 188 5 127 2 46 9 12.1272 1128 144 16
Clay Matthews 53.50 0 0 4 16 1978 1996 94 278 248 16 206 1 36 82.5 1595 1561 34
Bill Romanowski 52.73 4 0 2 13 1988 2003 83 243 222 18 98 1 18 20 39.5 1118 966 152 30
Carl Banks 52.48 2 1 1 10 1984 1995 68 173 151 3 21 1 15 39.5 860 826 34
Clay Matthews 52.18 1 1 6 10 2009 2019 77 156 150 6 191 2 62 44 91.5 519 383 136 130 20
Bryce Paup 52.15 0 1 4 7 1990 2000 67 148 113 6 55 1 30 3 75.0 545 444 101 7
Wayne Walker 50.93 0 1 3 13 1958 1972 93 200 173 14 163 1 47 38.5
Dave Wilcox 49.88 0 2 7 11 1964 1974 74 153 144 14 149 1 35 36.5
Mo Lewis 49.53 0 1 3 13 1991 2003 90 200 199 14 241 4 67 21 52.51232 1011 221 37
Chad Brown 49.48 0 2 3 12 1993 2007 85 188 161 6 39 0 16 20 79.01091 839 252 58 2
Seth Joyner 48.6
This is the top half. Some of the names are interesting. Dave Robinson scores above Chuck Howley. Larry Grantham scores very high. Someone I don’t consider much Joe Fortunato is fairly high. I think they got the top one right. lol
HOFm Chmp AP1 PB St From To wAVG GS Int Yds TD Lng PD Sk CombSoloAst TFL QB Hits
Lawrence Taylor 222.55 2 8 10 13 1981 1993 146 184 180 9 134 2 97 142.0
Derrick Brooks 164.50 1 5 11 14 1995 2008 142 224 221 25 530 6 97 84 13.1713 1300 413 68 1
Jack Ham 141.68 4 6 8 12 1971 1982 113 162 160 32 218 1 32 25.5
Ted Hendricks 136.20 4 4 8 14 1969 1983 112 215 200 26 332 1 44 61.0
Junior Seau 121.98 0 6 12 16 1990 2009 133 268 243 18 238 0 42 43 56.5 18471522 325 80 11
Bobby Bell 112.43 1 6 9 12 1963 1974 104 168 159 26 479 6 61 40.0
Avg HOF OLB 103 1 4 8 12 105 187 175 16 231 2 49 74
Derrick Thomas 99.65 0 2 9 11 1989 1999 104 169 157 1 20 0 20 5 126.5 641 599 42 10
Von Miller 98.55 2 3 8 9 2011 2022 103 161 161 2 68 1 42 24 123.5561431 130 164 245
Kevin Greene 96.28 0 2 5 11 1985 1999 93 228 176 5 53 1 25 1 160.0 734 669 65 18
DeMarcus Ware 95.33 1 4 9 11 2005 2016 100 178 173 3 44 1 41 25 138.5657505 152 171 229
Terrell Suggs 94.30 2 1 7 15 2003 2019 110 244 226 7 144 2 44 63 139.0895630 265 202 200
Khalil Mack 89.85 0 3 7 7 2014 2022 89 134 133 3 66 2 33 24 84.5517 385 132 115 148
Larry Grantham 85.55 1 5 5 13 1960 1972 92 175 166 24 308 1 41 38.5
Rickey Jackson 76.18 1 0 6 15 1981 1995 112 227 224 8 68 0 32 136.0 1180 1173 7
James Harrison 74.93 2 2 5 8 2002 2017 91 193 117 8 95 0 33 24 84.5811 583 228 128 150
Dave Robinson 74.35 3 2 3 9 1963 1974 83 155 133 27 449 1 87 28.5
Pat Swilling 73.55 0 2 5 9 1986 1998 98 185 142 6 79 1 39 107.5 490 468 22
Chuck Howley 70.70 1 5 6 12 1958 1973 94 180 161 25 399 2 58 26.0
Joe Fortunato 69.78 1 3 5 12 1955 1966 71 155 153 16 156 1 36 21.0
Chris Hanburger 68.30 0 3 9 12 1965 1978 100 187 175 19 347 2 45 45.5
Joey Porter 65.58 1 1 4 11 1999 2011 90 188 171 12 233 1 84 49 98.0 689 516 173 124 72
Andre Tippett 64.88 0 2 5 10 1982 1993 90 151 139 1 42 0 32 100.0
Cornelius Bennett63.28 0 1 5 14 1987 2000 91 206 204 7 112 1 69 9 71.51190 1048 142 16
Wilber Marshall 63.05 2 2 3 10 1984 1995 99 179 153 23 304 3 58 45.0 1043 1020 23
Sorry, it didn’t print right but you can see the number after the name. HOFer Rickey Jackson is 10 points below Larry Grantham at 85. Dave Wilcox is at 49 points. Not sure what brings his number down so much.
I should have just shared site. :) https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_OLB.htm
Had I been Reid, I would have retired beating the team in the SB who had hired me, and ultimately fired me, coming full circle but coaches know how good certain players are and Reid would love to try for another championship with a QB who can dazzle crowds if he can just continue to stay healthy for awhile.
Its interesting that a lot of veteran QBs will be leaving the game soon, some with incredible numbers and statistics but other than Wilson and Mahomes, can the young guns continue to play at a high enough level without injury and greed or complacency and keep pro football on television and streaming, viable …
‘I agree Paul. it is an imperfect election process. I don’t have issue with Pearson though it was close for me but take the accolades away and the fact he only went to 3 Pro Bowls and I’d say he sure was a HOFer. We get too caught up in number of Pro Bowls and All Pros and to some degree stats. I certainly don’t believe it was a slam dunk Cliff Branch was ahead of him and more deserving though I favored Branch. They weren’t that far apart.’
Pro Bowls: Branch 4, Pearson 3
First-Team All-Pro: Branch 3, Pearson 3
Receptions: Branch 501, Pearson 489
Yards: Branch 8,685, Pearson 7,822
Touchdowns: Branch 67, Pearson 48
All concrete data points to Branch being better than Pearson.
‘ I don’t think you can necessarily say this player got x number of Pro Bowls or All Pros so they should be elected . It’s too simplistic. Of course we’d like to say every Pro Bowl especially was earned but we know different. I think it can go both ways as we are seeing players with lesser accolades like 1/0 Ken Riley, 0/4 Issac Bruce, 0/3 Dick LeBeau, 0/4 Harold Carmichael and 2/2 Jimbo Covert. And I don’t say Bob Keuchenberg deserves to be in the HOF because he is a 1/6. I say it because I saw him play his whole career and he had the reputation as one of the best Guards. Also I like my HOF OL players to have been durable and he certainly checks that box. It wouldn’t matter if he was 1/3 to me. lol’
I disagree. All-Pros are a distinguished honor, and Pro Bowls before the 1990s were decided by the players. If you were consistently judged by your peers and those who covered you in such a regard, you belong in Canton. I say that for Maxie Baughan, I say that as John Niland and Ed Budde had comparable, if not better accolades than Kuechenberg did.
‘ My annoyance at the constant gripping over Pearson is that he’s far from the most questionable PFHOFer but too many people focus on him and not the likes of Dave Robinson or many others just or even more less deserving’
Dave Robinson being an all-time mistake doesn’t change the fact that Pearson leapfrogged many more deserving seniors in a deep pool.
‘ Yeah I don’t think the criticism can be much about football with Pearson. I think it’s Cowboy hate and the way the media caught him being upset over not being selected.’
I can’t speak for others. If you deserve Canton, you deserve Canton. I’m a Bears fan who was appalled at Covert’s election, but happy with Dillon’s. I think Dave Robinson was a mistake, but I’ve been a cheerleader for Billy Howton for many years. I’ve rolled my eyes at Drew Pearson’s nomination and election while being over the moon about Howley making it.
Yup Andy Reid has come full circle. It must be incredibly satisfying. He sure looked happy. He’s 64 so not terribly old in todays world but at an age when most of the greatest HC’s have left the game.
Don Shula retired at 65, Tom Landry at 64, Chuck Noll at 60, Bud Grant 58, Chuck Knox at 62, Maybe he can’t imagine himself doing anything else. Look at Belichick who soon to be 71 and in a couple years will surpass George Halas as the oldest NFL “Head Coach” to coach a game. He’s on age watch and all time wins watch. lol Marv Levy almost made it to Halas being 72.
Levy and Bud Grant are both 97 years old and amazing. Someone should tell Eric Bieniemy about Marv Levy. His first Professional head coaching experience wasn’t until his 50’s for Montreal of the Canadian Football League and when he was out of work as a HC he signed on as HC for the USFL in the 1980’s. If you want something bad enough and are a known commodity there’s a way. Maybe he didn’t interview well either. LOL
Interesting that one would post such a detailed comparison of Pearson vs Branch yet leave out first team all decade-which was a HUGE factor in his election (and reflected recent efforts by seniors committee and full selection committee to get remaining first team all decade players elected), also go to all that effort over a debate when Pearson was elected just ONE year before Branch. And of course ignore that Pearson was on the receiving end of 3 game-deciding plays on NFL Films “Top 75 Plays in NFL History” list-another factor in his case,
Their cases are very close and could have been elected in reverse order by year…..but of course none of my comments were about comparing those cases but instead that for as much as some folks like to somehow focus on Pearson’s election, there are in fact several other less deserving seniors elected that last few decades, including some from his era, yet their cases attract far less debate here: Dave Robinson and Floyd Little for examples. Thats been my only point,
Again, I’ve found flaws in All-Decade teams,. The fact Pearson got in before Branch and the fact Jackson is still waiting doesn’t sit right with me.
We all pretty much agree Dave Robinson was a terrible choice. Thankfully, Brazile and Howley gave since been elected, though both should’ve been in years ago. I’m thinking Gradishar is next and Howley is hopefully not that far behind.
Sorry, I meant hopefully Baughan is not far behind after Gradishar.
Did you see how high Dave Robinson was rated on PFR HOF metric? I don’t know what exactly that means but maybe there’s something we’re missing. Here it is again for OLB. Did anyone voice concern about Dave Wilcox at the bottom of the list? I put a * by the retired player who makes my HOF.
I just saw the light on Clay Matthews. lol I knew he had a motor that wouldn’t quit but no player today comes close to his number of tackles playing OLB on a 3-4 Defense. Plus he had high number of sacks with 84. He makes my HOF now. :)
Fortunato must suffer from being part of the greatest Bear LB corp in history. Bill George must take some of his shine away because he deserves the HOF. Kind of strange how the Captain and play caller gets ignored .
Derrick Thomas 99.65
Von Miller 98.55
Kevin Greene 96.28
DeMarcus Ware 95.33
*Terrell Suggs 94.30
Khalil Mack 89.85
*Larry Grantham 85.55
Rickey Jackson 76.18
*James Harrison 74.93
Dave Robinson 74.35
Pat Swilling 73.55
Chuck Howley 70.70
*Joe Fortunato 69.78
Chris Hanburger 68.30
Joey Porter 65.58
Andre Tippett 64.88
*Cornelius Bennett 63.28
Wilber Marshall 63.05
*Isiah Robertson 62.78
Maxie Baughan 61.95
Robert Brazile 60.75
Lance Briggs 59.45
T.J. Watt 57.93
Greg Lloyd 56.73
Andy Russell 56.60
Mike Stratton 53.55
Ken Norton Jr. 53.53
*Clay Matthews 53.50
Bill Romanowski 52.73
Carl Banks 52.48
Clay Matthews Jr 52.18
Bryce Paup 52.15
Wayne Walker 50.93
Dave Wilcox 49.88
Next up a look at the RB’s we love to talk about. I wonder where Floyd Little rates?
Of course this is partial list. Roger Craig holds up well. Oh my gosh Floyd Little is down on the totem pool. I’m a strong supporter of Larry Brown as a short career player. I would be Ok of no one below 50 pts was elected to HOF. I’m surprised Corey Dillon is so low another one I support along with OJ Anderson. Priest Holmes is fairly high and he just falls short for me. Darren Sproles did it all well and has a career 4.9 yards a rush. Maybe he should have rushed a little more. lol I’m probably odd but Beastmode falls a little short for me. He have a better chance if his career was short. He’ll probably make it. I understand these rating until I see John David Crow so high?
Tony Dorsett 77.90
*Roger Craig 77.48
Jerome Bettis 75.94
John Riggins 69.59
Marshawn Lynch 69.14
Paul Hornung 68.63
Cookie Gilchrist 66.30 Ricky Watters 64.39
Darren Sproles 63.55
*Shaun Alexander 62.38
*Larry Brown 61.60
*Tiki Barber 58.00
Priest Holmes 55.65
Warrick Dunn 54.94
Jamal Lewis 53.49
*Fred Taylor 53.40
Larry Csonka 52.65
*Corey Dillon 51.93
John David Crow 51.90
*Ottis Anderson 51.42
Eddie George 46.66
Steven Jackson 46.64
Chuck Foreman 46.48
Lydell Mitchell 46.45
Calvin Hill 46.10
Earnest Byner 45.05
Ahman Green 45.05
James Brooks 44.63
Greg Pruitt 44.33
Lawrence McCutcheon 43.33
Mike Alstott 42.85
Matt Forte 42.28
Freeman McNeil 42.03
Maurice Jones-Drew 41.50
Jamaal Charles 41.35
Lorenzo Neal 40.45
Floyd Little 40.25
There are only three players not in the HOF above the scores I’ve shown: LeSean McCoy 82. 84, Frank Gore 100 tied with Terrell Davis and Adrian Peterson 125.67.
The top 10 RB scores are:
Walter Payton 214.61
Jim Brown 182.79
Barry Sanders 177.55
Emmitt Smith 176.48
Ladainian Tomlinson 136.50
O.J. Simpson 135.98
Eric Dickerson 132.25
Adrian Peterson 125.67
Marshall Faulk 111.60
I would assume the top 4 most of us agree are the Mount Rushmore. The next 5 maybe not so much. I’m hard pressed to say Frank Gore is the 10th best RB in history at 100 pts.
‘Did you see how high Dave Robinson was rated on PFR HOF metric? I don’t know what exactly that means but maybe there’s something we’re missing. Here it is again for OLB. Did anyone voice concern about Dave Wilcox at the bottom of the list? I put a * by the retired player who makes my HOF.’
I see championships are taken into evaluation on the metric. That’s a team accomplishment for an individual honor. So, I don’t know I should put a whole ton of stock into that.
That is a good point Corey. I would agree it’s fairly irrelevant to an individual grade but than it doesn’t add much to the score. Of course If it did Emmitt Smith would be ahead of Barry Sanders.
Based on the formula it gives Dave Robinson 10 points or 2 points for every championship. A little more than what I assumed but he’d still be tied with HOFer Andre Tippett’s score. No, Robinson is not an attractive name that people remember well. I had never heard of him before he was chosen. lol Points aside I would not have chosen him based off his career stats. He seems like a solid player but a weak HOF selection. The Senior Committee missed the mark as they are one to do. :)
One place those championships mattered is for Larry Csonka. His score would be HOVG in the 40’s without them. Of course we have to take into consideration that he was a FB. Not many of them very high on the meter. And I’m sure he got style points for running players over.
Corey, I think the most glaring All Decade Team error is FS Larry Wilson. He made it twice for the 60’s and 70’s. He only played 3 years in the 1970’s with one All Pro. The committee did a real disservice to 2/5 Jake Scott.
Ok I’m off this metric stuff. lol There’s no way Cliff Harris is 25 points better than Jake Scott for being a HOF candidate. I read the formula and can’t see where that kind of disparity comes from. If people pay attention to this stuff it doesn’t bode well for Eric Allen whose tied with Scott at 60 pts. PFR suggests 80 pts is number to assure HOF. Maybe Allen gets in as a Senior. Dick LeBeau is the lowest HOFer at 48. That figures. lol Ken Riley at 54 pts. Lots of more deserving players than those two. Oh well they are HOFers now. They were good players no denying it.
Dave Grayson and Lester Hayes above Darrell Green’s 80 pts are the only two not in the HOF above 80.
Dick Anderson 70 pts,. Darren Woodson 65, HOFer John Lynch at 64 and HOFer Donnie Shell at 68 points. Eddie Meador with no championships is above them all at 73. Albert Lewis on 51 pts.,
PFR is just one tool that exists to evaluate current and potential PFHOF-its not a bad one but its also not a perfect one. And perhaps most importantly I doubt voters rely on it much. Makes for interesting comparisons and discussions, and I find it interesting to look over, but its still a subjective rating system-and one that uses other subjective criteria (all pro teams, pro bowls, etc….)
Yes it’s a particular snap shot not perfect. I find it interesting how the scores relate what our opinions that are. For example I don’t view Dick Anderson above Jake Scott but I hear more support for Anderson. After looking at the scores maybe I need to re-evaluate. Most of all I like to see all the players in a list for each position. It makes it easier to discuss.
Does anyone think Joey Porter should be in the HOF?
I think if Dick Anderson and Jake Scott merged into one, you’d have a Hall of Famer. One was a Defensive Player of the Year, All-Decade. The other was 2/5 and a Super Bowl MVP. It’s hard to put one over the other, let alone in the deep senior pool.
If there a 2/3 defensive back whom I think should get a closer look from the senior pool, I nominate Bobby Boyd.
I could get on board with Bobby Boyd. He was making All Pro when HOFer Dick LeBeau was a Pro Bowler. Although he retired early Boyd was at the top of his game. He became a Assistant Coach so he could make more money. LOL It was different time. It got me to thinking, I’m pretty sure Jason Sehorn was the last NFL white, regular starting CB in 2001. I think Roger Wehrli was the last to make a PB in 1979. That seems strange to me. There are plenty of fast white guys. We had a 4.4 guy at my high school.
In Julian Edelmans’ first few years with NE, he not only played alot on special teams, mostly as a punt returner but played in nickel situations as a corner or safety. Very versatile and as we all know, clutch in the postseason with three rings. I really thought he would recover from injuries and help out Brady in Tampa but they had enough receivers and he stayed retired, enjoying free drinks in Boston for life … haha
Should we expect to see 2/5 Wes Welker make the final 25 HOF list any time soon?
Very unlikely
at some point (soon) voters will move on from electing more WRs from 2000s-2010s: Holt, Wayne, AJohnson, SSmith Larry Fitz, ABrown, JJones (plus Moss, TO, Bruce, CJohnson already in Hall) – thats 11 and likely it.
Antonio Brown will wait like Hines Ward, I believe but who knows?
I hope Witten doesnt have to wait very long.
Guessing Brown waits 3-4 years, but will be elected but – not to the degree of wait/uncertainty that Ward is facing.
Witten (2026) depends a lot on how voters manage Gates (2024) and then Gronk (2027 but guessing Witten is looking at 4-5 year wait. His lack of all decade plus no great playoff successes hurts his chances for quick election. Keeping in mind voters traditionally have been very selective and difficult with TE elections.
Witten shouldn’t though … he was a more complete and durable tight end than either Gates or Gronk, though Gronk could block well too. I am hoping the wait for him is no more than three years but we will see …
He was Romo’s go-to guy and should be fresh in the minds of voters …
Witten’s case is impacted by lack of all decade and lack of playoffs, note even with both Shannon Sharpe waited 3 years for election.
After Gates and Gronk, voters could pause for a few years on Witten-he’s going to wait, who really cares if its 3 or 4 or 5 yrs -really makes no difference, and entirely impossible to predict as lot will matter who else is on those ballots. We know he won’t get in before Gronk (2027) who is most likey first ballot, then we have a 2028 ballot with 1st ballot Brady and Watt (plus other previous ballot carry overs). Which leaves 2029 as first likely chance for Witten-year 4 – and of course we won’t know until next year what the 2026 1st ballot could look like-possible its stacked as well. Wait of 3 yrs or less, is very very unlikely.
I’m not concerned about Witten, he should get in quickly. I have Witten ahead of Shannon Sharpe but behind Tony Gonzalez, Gronk, Antonio Gates and Kelce as the greatest TE’s of all time.
Gonzalez is1A and Gronk 1B – I can’t say one was a better football player at TE than the other. It’s the intangible of Gronk’s determination that levels it up for me, he was a little bit of a mad man. LOL The were both freakish talented.
2. Antonio Gates is my clear number 2. The 2nd best basketball player to play TE. lol What a weapon especially in the red zone. A phenomenal player who made up the best 1-2 punch in history with L.T. for 261 TD’s combined. He should be a 1st Ballot HOFer as should everyone on the list.
3. Travis Kelce is moving on up and he seems to keep making himself better. And Kelce can block but doesn’t get credit for it because he’s so involved in the pass game. As far as his route running and being clutch what can you say. lol
4. Witten was above average at both blocking and receiving. It’s no shame to be 5 on a list of the very best TE’s ever. I don’t think any other position can compare to these TE’s over the last 25 years for the quality of the player. These guys have really made a name for themselves.
Of course if we were talking about best careers at TE, Gronk would be down the list and Kelce is nearing the end at 34 and is unlikely to reach Witten. Witten was a machine of consistency. As a career Gronk is comparable to JJ Watt though Watt wasn’t the big winner Gronk was with 4 SB’s. Both were a little up and down but when they were up, wow.
I saw all those TEs play…but one also has to have an appreciation for history of the league and also importantly realize just because TE role has changed so much in last few decades (some are really functioning as WRs), and as result top 5 all time WRs needs to include the likes of Mike Ditka and John Mackey and also very likely consideration for Ozzie Newsome and Kellen Winslow. And so Witten is not top 5 all time (at this point neither is Kelce just because they played in era as TEs played as WRs)-frankly I would put both at somewhere 6-10 all time.
Up until 10 years ago I would agree with you Paul. Those olders players were great and I always held them up as the best. This new breed of TE are better athletes and more talented IMO. Not playing always as a TE is what’s so impressive at 6’6 260. If we want to argue who had the best career I wouldn’t hold the older players receiving numbers against them. Maybe we just going to disagree. :)
its hard to evaluate 2000s era QBs WRS and TEs with previous era players as the passing game (and associated rules) have changed so much to favor building huge stats….but we simply should not go forward into future of the league just valuing the current/recent players, still need to consider impacts of earlier players and consider how to best consider their impact while accounting for eras.
I agree with that statement. However most positions won’t translate well into today’s game. QB is one that definitely can. That position is easier to play today IMO. :) A QB with decent size, a great arm and judgement would work in any time for ex. Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Norm Van Brocklin, Bobby Lane, Y.A. Tittle etc… I think all of these QB’s would be HOFers today. I can’t say the same for TE’s because the of the size and speed of the players in today’s game. Mike Ditka and John Mackey wouldn’t receive the same accolades. Mackey wouldn’t even be a TE and Ditka might be a FB at under 230lbs. No shame just the evolution of the game. Other positions that would translate well IMO are RB, MLB and maybe Safety Of course I might be able to pick out a few individual players but not many. lol
I’m a big advocate of Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert for the Hall of Fame and I was stunned when all of them weren’t elected to the Centennial Class
Pretty clear that BRP and the seniors committee simply don’t care about pre 1960 candidates, maybe one of those gets elected in future, but doubt very much the others do. May be that at some point voters who do care (Clark Judge, Rick Gosselin) press Hall to have a one time-final special class of pre 1960 candidates-elect say 8 and move on. Or if Hall stays with 3 seniors a year, make one a pre-1960 slot. Those are likely only ways other pre 1960s guys are elected-and not sure either of those approaches ever happen.
and so there’s no confusion, I am also big advocate of Lavvie Dilweg. Verne Lewellen. Ox Emerson, and Al Wistert, just uncertain as to their prospects for election
I emailed Rick Gosselin and asked what happened to Talk of Fame and he told me that it had run it’s course and they all moved in different directions
Andy … TalkOfFameTwo is running now with Clark Judge
RIP Bud Grant Otis Taylor Dick Haley
Otis made seniors semi-finalist list for 2023, possible in 2024 he moves into final 12, thus positioned for a future election- I don’t think his passing suddenly has him skip the queue to be elected in 2024, but in following 2-3 elections very possible.
Fully agreed 100% Paul my question is after Gradishar Kuech Sharpe who would be your next 3
Oh no Bud Grant died. What a life!!! RIP the best Viking of all.
Ironic Otis Taylor died so close to time Bud Grant. Do we think that was Minnesota’s best chance for a SB win?
after Gradishar BobK and Sharpe, my next three would be Dilweg, Emerson, Wistert BUT if we assume (and its likely to be the case) that voters will continue to ignore pre 1960 seniors, my next three would be Baughan, Meador, Craig (or KAnderson)
Paul, I agree with those first three. After watching film I don’t agree with Baughan and of course Anderson who I’ve been consistent about. I’m not saying those players weren’t really good just not HOF IMO. It does get a little tougher to keep them out though as weaker selections make it in.
The Vikes didnt have a chance against the Chiefs with Taylor … Too much KC defense.
The Vikings best chance to win a SB was against the Steelers, who only led 9-6 in the 4th quarter but couldnt make any plays on offense. Had Tarkenton taken deeper drops when passing, he might have made more throws but kept throwing rollouts near the line of scrimmage that were batted down or short completions.
im sorry tony P ill have to disagree with you on baughan 100% how is a guy who went to 9 pro bowls not hof material
Those were the days! Mercury Morris was the man!! What a great RB and Dolphins Team in 1973. Some interesting games .One at Dallas and the famous Dick Anderson game. Miami didn’t do much on Offense but didn’t need to with 6 interceptions. Miami’s Defense is so under-rated during those SB years. One of the best of their era.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppm_PNCMi7k
Matt Ryan to be released. If he decides to retire he would be eligible for HOF for the 2028 class. I think he waits a long time. Wouldn’t shock me if he were a Senior Nominee. It’s a shame during that SB with his team’s collapse. Not really his fault. Most teams win a SB when they score 28 points. Falcons defense choked. Also offensive play calling for them was pretty awful in 2nd half. He’d be a first ballot HOFer if they won that game. He is up there in career stats with a league MVP. Solid career.
Matt Ryan and Philip Rivers will the most interesting candidates to ever hit the ballot, traditionally voters have viewed QBs as winners, multiple MVP/all pro types or top 10 in career passing stats. BUT post 2000s QBs are putting up numbers at rate and totals never seen before, so its time for voters to re-evaluate that top 10 “standard” – and that really is the only resume both have. Will be very intriguing to see that debate play out among voters–guessing both will have years on ballot and much uncertainty as to prospects for election.
I’ve got Phillip Rivers slightly in and to me Matt Ryan is Ken Anderson. Both are very close so I agree with Paul that it will be interesting. Wouldn’t bother me if both got in. Ryan had a great WR corp most of his career and Rivers had Gates and LT. I don’t think I hold it against Rivers not getting to a SB. Their best chance New England beat them.
Any thoughts about the Cowboys releasing Zeke after 7 years? He could still have a couple good years lift as approaches 30. With Pollard’s season ending injury I guess Dallas would rather have the cap space than the insurance at RB. He counted 10 million against the Cowboys cap. I wonder who will pick up his huge contract?
At 27 Elliott is at 8,200 yards and 68 TD’s so very much alive for the HOF if he can finish up his career with a couple more 1,000 yard seasons and more TD’s. It’s his for the taking
I wish I was a Pro Football Hall of Fame voter and a member of the seniors and coach/contributor committee but unfortunately I’m not
Elliot will help a team but not a featured back anymore unless he runs behind a strong run blocking line like Atl or Balt but we will see who offers him a chance. It will also be interesting to see if a team obtains Henry from the Titans. A team like SD, Cincy or Jax could help him get a championship.
Rodgers may be heading to the Jets but the Packers havent made it happen yet. I still cant believe the Niners or Dolphins didnt try to get him ? The Niners got Darnold but may let Lance go to the Titans. The Dolphins are hoping for a renewa from Tua but its risky.
The saga of Lamar Jackson is unbelievable. Even coming out of college, he was hard for teams and agents to get a hold of and now he is costing himself millions not getting a deal done with a decent agent.
Look, I admire what he is trying to do …
With the guaranteed contract given to Watson, the Cleveland ownership set a precedent that Jackson wants to take advantage of but the owners also COLLUDE, which is why they wont hand out another contract like that anytime soon. Even if an owner did, it will go out to a passing superstar like Mahomes, Allen or Burrow, not a QB who mostly runs and is now injury prone.
QBs changing teams
Rodgers — Jets ?
Carr — Saints
Garoppollo — Raiders
Minshew — Colts, till rookie takes over
Jackson — Ravens or Falcons?
Mayfield — Bucs but should have stayed in LA
Dalton — Carolina
Brissett — Wash
Darnold — SF, unless used for trade bait
Someone needs to backup Stafford in LA who gets hurt or may retire … Wentz, Heinicke and Mariota are still out there …
I heard about Rodgers to the Jets. Who the heck would want to go to the Jets? LOL Rodgers isn’t going to resurrect them. Does he think he’s going to become Broadway Aaron? He must not want to win a Championship.
Yeah I don’t keep up with much of the offseason stuff without the sports tv channels. Henry to the Jags would be interesting. I wish Sean Payton was still with the Saints because I think he could he Carr a lot.
Curious how Jackson is costing himself if he hasn’t signed? I’m not rooting for Watson to succeed after the stuff he pulled in Houston. He sure wasn’t the guy the media represented him to be. Garopollo could win some games for the Raiders. How long do we think Kansas City can be keep up their amazing run? I think losing JuJu at WR hurts. I hope they can find a great WR to replace.
Zeke was released, so is a FA and any team can resign him at any deal-they would not take on his previous contract which is now void (Dallas still stuck with remaining prorated balance of signing bonus spread over 2023 and 2024 cap.)
He could end up with team that still has a run dominated offense, based on 2 RBs, where for 2-3 million for one year contract, Zeke could be chance of pace/red zone RB. Market for that type of RB is very limited, and could end up back in Dallas for that role/price. Other possible teams in mix include TB, Chargers, Bears-but again interest is likely not very strong given that his y/game and y/att have been on steady decline in recent years. He is classic example of RB decline after first contract (yet he got a 2nd one) and in late 20s (will be 28 before next season). Had PFHOF start to career (two all pro selections, lead league in rushing 2x and 3x pro bowl in first four seasons) but best is in his past now.
Thanks for clarification Paul. I don’t know maybe a new Team can rejuvenate him. I think he wasn’t always in the best shape in the later years. Pollard took some of his shine away. I think Elliott still has the moves with the power but doesn’t have the wiggle and speed of Pollard to get through the hole. The Cowboys had the best OL in the League when Zeke was at his best.
For TonyP … As pointed out by Mike Florio on ProFootballTalk, Lamar Jackson could have negotiated a new contract two years ago like Josh Allen did with Buffalo. Instead, he plays out his fifth year option, while Allen has made at least a projected 40 million dollars more than Jackson due to an extension. Of course we are not talking about the signing bonus money that Jackson could have already gotten. Supposedly, he turned down a guaranteed 133 million/3 year contract … Yes, he could still break bank but with who? Atlanta could be an option or a team out of left field but the Ravens will probably just pay him over 34 million for this year, while proving to him how far he could have already been with a competent agent. Even in potential endorsements, Jackson is still way behind where an agent could have possibly helped him obtain …
Jackson better hope a team gives him 200 million in guaranteed money/signing bonus
Thanks Brian. Since I wrote I looked into. It’s looking like Jackson gamble on himself was a mistake. An agent is good at knowing the interest in a player for years ahead so is a big advantage come negotiation time. I wouldn’t go it alone. He’ll probably settle for what the Raven’s originally offered him or a little less in guaranteed money because of the durability issues now. So far there’s no apparent interest. Yes, Atlanta would be a good landing spot. He would be very popular in Atlanta considering the fan base. I hope the guy can get back to playing well. It’s good for the League to have the excitement he brings with his skills. That said I’m not sure he can keep running so much. That catches up with even the very best.
two quick questions for the group :in terms of senior o linemen where do you put george kunz where do you rank him in terms of senior o linemen and 2 who is his biggest competiiton
I would go Kuechenberg , Jacoby, Kunz but apparently voters (for reasons unknown to me) have little interest in Jacoby
I’m the opposite on 2/4 Jacoby,; my support is growing since 2/2 Jimbo Covert made it. I usually like my HOF OL players to have more Pro Bowls but I could make an exception because he was a main cog in so many Redskin wins. Also he was apart of so many 1,000 yard rushers. I wouldn’t have a problem if he was elected.
https://youtu.be/K5_BXTEUjMc
Kunz’s name keeps coming up but I just don’t remember him as standing out. Maybe I didn’t see enough Falcon and Colt games. Unless you’re Bob Kuechenberg who has been apart of so many wins I don’t think a 1/7 profile gets Kunz in. I’m not sure if that’s fair or not.
I’ve got 1/6 Kooch, 2/7 Ed Budde and 2/4 Jacoby
Good signing for the Texans to get Daulton Schultz from the Cowboys. Now maybe he’ll have room to make PB. The Cowboys had too many TE’s. He’s a really good player.
frankly if he’s a really good player teams would have been signing him to larger multi-year deal, if he is looking to bet on himself and use better 2023 season to move up FA rankings in 2024 I am not so sure going to team starting a complete rebuild including at QB was best decision-could be that was his only option.
I think it’s a case of the latter. Your correct that there wasn’t a lot of interest at the price he probably wanted but if he wasn’t really good he wouldn’t have been offered 9 million. Rumors were the Cowboys would have offered in the neighborhood of 12 million x 3 years if they were to get serious. He’s clearly betting on himself. A talented number two pick at QB gives him an opportunity to catch a lot of balls and have a big year to make himself more attractive to the market. I don’t know who else they will throw to now that Brandin Cooks has left and gone to the Cowboys. i hope it works out for him. Time will tell about the Pro Bowl stuff. If he’s as good as I think his 57 catches from last year will be 75 plus this year.
Dont’a Hightower retired after 10 seasons. I was surprised he only made 2 Pro Bowls. He was an important player in a very good Patriots Defense for a long time. He made an impact from the get go and was on 3 SB winning teams.
There are plenty of very good players from the NE dynasty with multiple SBs and a few pro bowls who won’t get into PFHOF-he’s one of them.
Hightower was huge in all three SB wins and missed the game they lost against Philly. If he doesnt tackle Lynch inside the two-yard line, the Seahawks would have won back-to-back championships. Like Edelman, saved his best for the biggest games …
Good points Brian. I don’t think they make those SB’s without him. His numbers don’t reflect his impact. He was an Alabama can’t miss player IMO, who looking the 2012 Draft should have gone higher than 25. Another Belicheck steal.
I was watching a Dateline episode about a murder and one of the victim’s friends was Chad Brown the former RLB. He was an awful good player for the Steelers and Seahawks with 79 sacks. A 2/3 he was great for a while so I’m thinking he gets in the HOF discussion.
Guess it depends what you mean by “gets in the HOF discussion”.. 2 first team all pro and 3 pro bowls is not that strong of a PFHOF resume-as evidenced by how many players with that resume never get considered, including Chad Brown who has been on ballot since 2013 and just first appeared as preliminary candidate in 2023.
I seem to remember him being a better player than his accolades. I guess the fact he made it as a preliminary candidate in 2023 is a good sign. Maybe someone else remembers like you said many don’t get any traction.
I do remember chad brown tony p solid linebacker for a long time i remember him from the steelers
RIP 1/3 John Brockington RB for the Packers in the early 1970’s . He was a really good one with three straight 1,000 yard seasons. He and the Redskins’ Larry Brown were a couple of the best of their time. A lot of great RB’s didn’t last too many years back then and they came to the League older and they didn’t have the financial incentive of today. These guys paved the wave. We shouldn’t forget even if they don’t make it ti the HOF.
well spoken tony p running backs like brockington and larry brown should never ever be forgotten
I have a confession I didn’t have a prediction for this year’s class like I’ve had in the past that’s how worth all the finalists were
yea the class of 2023 finalist list was a really good group, hopefully for 2024 voters respect the queue and elect 3 or 4 of the remaining 2023 modern finalists (plus the remaining 2023 senior finalists) as they are all certainly very deserving and would again make for a strong class in 2024
So we could be looking at gradishar kuechenberg Sharpe as senior nominees
I think that is very likely…
gotcha paul thanks for the feedback im thinking the same my question is which three new candidates will we see that replace klecko howley riley
as 2024 finalists?….hard to say but in looking at 2023 senior semi-finalists, perhaps Craig, Hayes, Jacoby….maybe Albert Lewis??
My three would be
Craig Hayes Jacoby my Next Three would be Ken Gray Albert Lewis Dick Schafrath
Ken Gray? never heard a strong case for him…nor name ever mentioned by others..hmmmmmmm
Gerald McCoy just retired. Very solid career. Borderline HOF career. I don’t think he makes it as a Modern Era Candidate. Perhaps Senior pool years and years down the line.
My pick for the contributor next year is Robert Kraft his resume says it all he needs no discussion plus someone’s going to have to knock on the door of Rob Gronkowski in 2027 and Tom Brady in 2028 (that is if he stays retired) and introduce them at NFL Honors
I think Andre Johnson gets in the next few years plus someone’s going to have to knock on the door of JJ Watt and introduce him at NFL Honors
Sorry for going ahead four and five years from now
Good call Andy P … though Belichick introducing each player would be cool. He should have Shula’s record in three years if Jones or Zappe develops …
If not 2024, Kraft is certainly getting elected soon…and guessing same for Andre Johnson as voters advanced 3 WRs into the round of 10 finalists for class of 2023 forcing them to address that logjam, guessing will play out in some order 2024-2025-could very well be two WRs in class of 2024 with Johnson a strong possibility. I often wonder how Kraft and NE fans will feel if Bill B hangs around with poor and average season total wins just to pass Shula as likelihood of getting to another SB seems very unlikely with Chiefs, Bills, Bengals all more serious contenders and would need to get past them (plus other rising teams in AFC)
RIP Dave Wilcox.
RIP Dave Wilcox …
Sad to hear off the passing of another PFHOFer-has been pretty brutal over the last few years with so many leaving us. The number of pre 1970 PFHOFers are unfortunately a rapidly declining group with large number over age of 80.
Joe Schmidt (91) is oldest player in Hall still alive, Marv Levy (95) is oldest PFHOFer
Sure are the quiet “dog days” of the PFHOF “season”…really not much news to report… usual early chatter and speculation about class of 2024 but we won’t get first steps in that election process until July with release of semi-finalists and then finalists for the seniors and coach/contributor slots. But a reminder anyone can nominate a modern or senior candidate and this is ideal time of year to do so as Hall staff works to prepare those preliminary lists for voters to review. Just send nomination to:
PFHOF
Att: Selection Committee
2121 George Halas Dr. NW Canton, Ohio 44708
Rodgers is now a Jet wearing #8 in honor of Browning Nagle … haha
Can he win the SB with a new team like Manning, Brady, Stafford ? Even Foles won after leaving KC back to Philly …
You heard it here first … No repeat championship for KC in 2023 …
Manning, Brady, Stafford (and Montana) all moved to teams that had talent and recent success season before they arrived-including playoffs.
Jets have not made playoffs in a decade- they have some young talent but his challenge is going to be greater than those other QBs mentioned.
Plus if they make playoffs, Rodgers and Jets will need to get past some likely combination of Bills, Chiefs, Bengals, Jags…. that’s a tough path for 40old QB to take at this stage of his career…..and sir I saw Brady play and Rodgers is no Brady….
https://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/odds/futures/
I don’t think any of you know this but a handwritten letter from Bill Walsh to Don Coryell helped him become the Contributor finalist
https://fullpresscoverage.com/2022/08/25/what-did-bill-walsh-have-to-do-with-coryells-hall-nomination-plenty/
With the summer months getting closer, I still hope the voting committees for senior players, continue to do their homework and pick the most deserving players and not just follow an established queue. Time to reshuffle the deck and do better … Players after 1970 wont just cut it … Homerism has to take a back seat for due diligence …
Good point Brian if it were up to me here would be my three senior nominees
Randy Gradishar
Billy Hotwton
Al Wistert
*Howton
Robert, I still endorse Lewellen, Wistert and Gradishar but doubt super seniors will get due process consideration. I have no problem with Sharpe and Kooch in the queue but hope the voters re-evaluate everyone again, hoping some voters change their minds and not just fall back on last years decisions.
Some consider Riley and Klecko safe and agreeable picks but these guys didnt have nearly the accolades that other players had and the process just needs to be better this year. As I have said on other sites, though Paul disagrees and I hope he is right … No one can assume that all three senior nominations can be voted in for 2024 or 2025
but hopefully they will … Then we will see what happens from 2026 on, in regards to seniors …
oh boy he we go with the accolades argument with riley and klecko again after a while brian the argument gets rather old and stale
Modern voters follow a queue as has the senior committee – doesn’t seem reasonable to expect that to change plus nothing wrong with Gradishar BobKeuch and Sharpe in 2024 or another of the 2023 finalists. We keep expecting senior committee to reassess pre 60s candidates but since 2020 they have continued to do so and hard to think that changes anytime soon folks
I really think the only way we see a path forward for the perhaps 3-5 most deserving pre 1960s candidates (and my sense is that is the highest possible number there), would be for some influential voters plus historians to push Hall Board to either 1). assign one of the 3 current senior slots to a pre 1960 candidate or 2) eventually create a one time special class to elect five or so pre 1960s in a one and done move. Hard to say if Hall would even consider one of those options but I certainly don’t hold out much help that senior committee will on their own simply elect those deserving pre1960s seniors-boat seems to have sailed on those.
John Turney thinks your first suggestion might happen for at least one super senior Paul, so we will see …
Sorry Robert, accolades never get stale … Haha
I think it’s clear that even expanding to three seniors isn’t going to work for pre 1960s candidates such as Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert the only way they’re going to get in is via a special election for pre 1960s candidates with voters like Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge and historians like Bill Belichick Chris Willis John Turney and Ken Crippen like the Centennial Class
Is there any reason to think the current seniors are more anti super-seniors (consider a super senior one who retired 60+ years ago) than 20 years ago when they picked Benny Friedman and Fritz Pollard?
Then there was also super senior Marshall Goldberg who was voted down (which probably why they never put forward a super senior again)
(read that Dr Z said he was an advocate for Friedman for years before he was elected, with our much support. Not sure who if anyone was advocating Pollard).
I think in order for a super-senior to get in there needs to be 2 respected members (more voters now) who will push for only one them. In one year pushing for lets say Dilweg or Emerson will not work. Also think pushing for super-seniors with stats (like Dilweg or Lewellen ) is easier then testimonials which includes all pros. If one (and only one) super senior gets into the final 12 and there is a strong advocate and an additional voice in the room, I think they have a good chance. Of course if they go for Sharpe, Kooch and Gradishar next the key might be to get them into the queue for the year after. Remember the committee did put in a Super Senior this year in the final 12 in Isbell. The problem was as far a I can tell there was no voice in the room or out of it screaming for Isbell. Can’t say that about the 3 who got in or the 3 who just missed.
Unless super senior fans are now going to start lobbying for Isbell the smart move is forget (for now) about Verne Lewellen, Ox Emerson, and Al Wistert, and instead only focus on getting LaVern Dilweg who was a semi finalist into the 12. Dilweg has the career interceptions record which could be used for those who want stats because they don’t trust accolades from decades ago, and for Gosselin he has the 20’s all decade team going for him (which Lewellen doesn’t). If Dilweg gets in others will be much easier.
PS for what ever it’s worth I see going back to when they were still moderns that Dr Z was advocating for both Joe Klecko and Ken Riley. (was looking on internet archive for a columns that discussed the inner workings of how Pollard and Friedman were elected).
PPS looking at the list of the senior nominees for 2004, 25 out of 68 are now in the hall.
getting into the 25 semi finals candidates has not just an anti super senior bias but even an anti semisuper senior bias
yet advancing to the next round has much less recency bias
Here were the years played for the 25
LaVern Dilweg 1926-1934
Cecil Isbell 1938-1942 advanced
Eddie Meador 1959-1970 advanced
Chuck Howley 1958-1973 advanced HOF
Maxie Baughan 1960-1974 advanced
Otis Taylor 1965-1975
Tommy Nobis 1966-1976 advanced
Jim Marshall 1960-1979
George Kunz 1969-1980
Ken Riley 1969-1983 advanced HOF
Randy Gradishar 1974-1983 advanced
Bob Kuechenberg 1970-1983/4 (injured in 84) advanced
Ken Anderson 1971-1986 advanced
Lester Hayes 1977-1986
Joe Klecko 1977-1988 advanced HOF
Billy Johnson 1974-1988
Stanley Morgan 1977-1990
Mark Clayton 1983-1993
Roger Craig 1983-1993
Joe Jacoby 1981-1993
Everson Walls 1981-1993 advanced
Mike Kenn 1978-1994
Sterling Sharpe 1988-1994 advanced
Chris Hinton 1983-1995
Clay Matthews JR. 1978-1996
This makes me think that LaVern Dilweg has a decent shot especially if Sharpe makes the hall and there is no one else who cheeseheads are pushing for strongly to take away votes
Good points but it wont matter till Dilweg is elected … Hopefully by 2029
We only have one senior election where we know the semifinalists, finalists and 3 elected. Possible we won’t really know where pre 1960s sit until after next two years on process and six seniors elected.
Two things I want to mention about next year’s class and beyond
I think we may only see two first ballot guys among the finalists next year Julius Peppers and Antonio Gates
I think we may see a wide receiver elected in the next four Hall of Fame classes
I think (unlike recent years) the modern class of 2024 election will have some unpredictability. Likely that Peppers (90% chance) and Gates (80%) are elected, and at least one WR, I would give Andre Johnson 60% chance.. Then its gets interesting, will voters smash open the WR logjam (three made final 10 in 2023) and add Holt (40%)- that would get us to four slots. For the fifth and final slot that would leave us just two final10 from 2023 in JAllen and Wayne, and possibilities for remaining final 15 finalists: Freeney, Willis, Hester, Anderson, and D Woodson as contenders, I would place their respective chances at JAllen (20%) Wayne (10%), Freeney (20%), Willis (40%), Hester (20%), Anderson (10%), and D Woodson (10%)
So greatest unknowns would be will voters elect two WRs (very possible) and if so whom would fill the fifth and final slot-real toss up among several players with Willis my dark horse contender. Possible we really will not get much clarity until we starting seeing buzz over the finalists in December and January and see which names rise to the top.
As much as I think Andre Johnson is a Hall of Famer I think they’ll go with Torry Holt because he’s been waiting the longest of all the wide receivers we’ll just see what happens
thats possible but was interesting in 2022 when Johnson advanced into final 10 (his first year on ballot) while Holt (and Wayne) did not. Sure looks like the 49 voters are split between the 3 and no consensus has arrived, hence all three made round of 10 in 2023–pretty sure at least one if not two gets elected in 2024, if one it could be Holt or Johnson-no sure way to know except voters have to break open the logjam
I hope Darrelle Revis in his induction speech calls for the induction of the receivers he shut down Torry Holt Andre Johnson Steve Smith Sr and Reggie Wayne
RIP Jim Brown
RIP Jim Brown
For his era, a man amongst boys …
Though Payton was the better overrall player to me, Brown was the most dominant runner to ever play pro football …
As we have seen in recent years..we are reaching point at which many great players and PFHOFers from the 70s and 60s are now leaving us in increasing numbers….childhood heroes of many older NFL fans from that era….. RIP
I think voters may want to put Reggie Wayne in before Dwight Freeney
very possible..but both face serious logjams at their respective positions..impossible to predict how voters will fix those (or when)
Has anyone heard any rumors of any new Senior player or Coach/Contributor semifinalists who are rumored to make the list for the first time when the ’24 semifinalists list gets released next month?
Nope, only speculation
no idea who would replace Coryell on the coaches/contributors semi-finalist list-but since 2023 was first time we saw such a list (and there were ties leading to 29 names), would not surprise me to see some reconsideration of candidates there and reshuffling of the 25.
seniors seems like will head more towards a fixed queue approach (as we have seen in modern candidate election) but there are the 3 slots to fill to replace 2023 elections….so perhaps Albert Lewis (very likely), LC Greenwood (??) and perhaps voters get it right and start considering more pre 1960s seniors-especially those who were already senior finalists for 2020 centennial class-Al Wistert, Ox Emerson, Verne Lewellen as its weird they made it to that list and then have disappeared from voters radar.
Paul was blanton collier on the contributor nominee list???
We don’t see the full list of nominees for senior and coaches/contributors- just the semifinalists
To clarify paul I meant was he on the contributior semifinalists list , I checked blanton collier was not on the list
I sent email to our hosts about creating a fresh new topic for the class of 2024 elections…perhaps we can have one up before 2024 senior and coach/contributor semi-finalists are announced in a few weeks.
Sounds good to me paul keep me posted
Collier wasnt on the list Robert …
These are my replacements for the semi-finalist list for seniors in 2024
Brito
Lewellen
Wistert
Benton or Howton over Clayton … Sorry TonyP
Jimmy Patton over Billy “White Shoes Johnson
D Anderson or Scott over Isbell but doubtful since Isbell made it as a finalist …
Replacements For Finalist List
Brito
Lewellen
Wistert (same)
Jacoby or Kenn over Nobis
Craig over Walls
Dilweg over Isbell
We will see if new additions shake up either list but it will probably be Gradishar, Kooch and Sharpe get elected …
On the semifinalist list I would also replace Hinton for Barwegen and Morgan for Shofner but we all know pre-60s players will be forgotten …
Brian I just mentioned that collier wasn’t a semifinalist
BTW
Dick Anderson
Dick Barwegan
Jimmy Patton
Thanks Robert …
Though I support Lewellen, if Sharpe’s election might help Dilweg in the next couple of years, that would be good, yet I still hope Lewellen can make the semifinalist list. If not then they need to get Dilweg elected …
If they go with three new players after the 60s, I would go with …
Dick Anderson
Harvey Martin
Harold Jackson
I like OJ Anderson and others as well but its a crapshoot …
Brian : agreed on martin Anderson and Jackson I fully support those 3 for various reasons I also agree on sharpes election hopefully helping dilwegs chances of getting in hopefully soon
Let me share with you another reason Randy Gradishar belongs every team that appeared in the Super Bowl in the 20th century has at least one Hall of Famer except for one the 1977 Broncos
Here are my top five super seniors
Dilweg
Emerson
Howton
Lewellen
Wistert
if these four are consider super seniors i shall add them to the list Brito Jim Ray Smith Patton Shofner
One thing I believe is that there will be subtractions from last years semifinalist list besides the three elected, so I am predicting possibly 4-6 new players … It will be fun to find out who and if some pre-60s players like Emerson, Wistert or Lewellen can make it, more the better but even if its modern players, it will be interesting …
Dont Forget about Gino Brito Brian
I hope Brito can make headway Robert but his career was considered short and many players had shorter careers back then. Playing wide receiver and bolting for Canada before coming back to the Redskins hurt his impact as a great pass rusher …
100% agreed on Brito Brian appreciate the feedback
IF (and its a big IF) the Hall stays with timing of the announcement in 2023…they should release names of senior and coach/contributors semi-finalists (25 each plus ties) next Wednesday or Thursday.
Thanks for the update Paul, will there be a new post for 2024 soon.
Thanks … lets hope they stick with the same timing this year. Personally, I hope they expand the list to nearly 30 names to give others a chance but we will see …
I know you probably want to answer on a new thread Paul but which three new names would you like to see on the semifinal list, regardless of era ?
not sure about new topic for 2024 elections..have not heard back from our hosts about my offer to create text for one…
three new senior semifinalists?? hmmmm….Ox Emerson, Al Wistert, LC Greenwood come to mind…
I wouls say Emerson and Wistert are two names that come to mind…but when it comes to any of the Super Seniors, aside from, maybe, the two who made it last year…I am not getting my hopes up…the Super Seniors, sadly, just don’t have enough traction in the room from anyone who has seen them play…and not enough historians to vote for them…
Greenwood is one guy I would say has a chance…
However, one guy who is a first year senior that I am interested in seeing how he does, is Albert Lewis…after a major push in his last year of modern-era eligibility that brought him to the final 10…it will be interesting to see how far he goes…my guess is that he will be a semifinalist…and may eventually, in a later through, break through to the finalists…
In a later year, that should read at the end…
Another thing I should point out, though this may be a long shot to speak of a special teams player…
There sure have been a fair amount, a couple, of kickers who have had “State Your Case” articles written about them lately by Talk of Fame…you have to wonder if another one might be being talked about as a semifinalist…
I think the biggest chance there of being a first-year semifinalist this year would lie with Nick Lowery, considering he is the more recent name that many have seen play…As good as Gino Cappelletti was, nobody has seen him play, and he will also have that “AFL” stigma that will likely keep him out…
Laugh if you will at what I just said, but just pointing out an observation…
I meant, in that third paragraph, by “many have seen him play” and “nobody has seen him play”…I was talking about on the voters…the current Senior committee…
Paul, just sent you a note early this morning about the new post…would love to have one.
Good call John … though Hester, then Vinny should get in on special teams … Lewis may make the semifinalist list, though I would go for super-seniors first, unless Lewis could replace Morgan, Clayton or B Johnson …
Brian wolf
Who’s Vinny
Vinatieri
brian curious question which senior wr do you prefer more Billy Howton or Del Shofner
Shofner has the All-Pro selections but Howton was also all-time leader when he retired so its close but Shofner would get it, though I like both …
I’d take shofner because of the all pros and the all decade
Getting back to what John was saying, Albert Lewis could even make the finalist list because he was also a great special teams player and represents the 80s and early nineties. We will see how fresh he stays in voters minds …
look for new thread on class of 2024 once we have the announcement of senior and coach/contributors-which could be this week or perhaps not (as Hall does not release a schedule in advance of the timing of these announcements, they just come out whenever….)
Your not going to believe what I found out
I found out who was cut when the Blue Ribbon Panel met to elect the Centennial Class
Lavvie Dilweg Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell Verne Lewellen and Al Wistert were cut during the reduction to 15 finalists Cliff Branch Roger Craig Randy Gradishar Tommy Nobis and Drew Pearson were cut during the reduction to 10 finalists
That Lavvie Dilweg Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell Verne Lewellen and Al Wistert didn’t survive the first cut tells me that they might might have been more focused on the guys they saw play rather than the guys they didn’t see play even still Bobby Dillon Duke Slater Mac Speedie and Ed Sprinkle were still elected
If your wondering how I found this out I found out about in the 2022 Pro Football Hall of Fame media guide which I’ll post below
https://www.profootballhof.com/getattachment/58a1acd8-8a6e-45a8-88ed-2733012d8286/2022-media-guide_updated080222.pdf/?lang=en-us
wow thanks for posting that andy did not know that at all thank you again
According to John Turney Paul, the list will be put out by friday or saturday if the new thread is ready.
I hope its closer to 28 players than 24 …
I think the coaches/contributors is a week later?
Wow, Andy. What a find. Thank you for sharing. I’ve been looking for the reduction votes pre-2007, and now feel confident I have whatever is available. It is amazing to look at the number of final six (or later final five) guys who were voted down on the final up or down vote. Hard to believe that Swann and Carson twice failed to get voted in after all the reductions, but at least they both finally made it on their third try. The reduction votes show that Bob Kuechenberg has been truly mistreated by the voters. Not only is he tied for the most times as a finalist without being eventually elected (8 times), but he also is the only modern era candidate to survive all the reductions votes and still not be in the HOF (having made it to the final six in his first year of eligibility but then voted down). I remember well Dr. Z’s articles back then talking about the “silent assassins” (i.e., voters who wouldn’t say a negative word about a candidate and then still vote them down at the end). Dr. Z was a big supporter of Kuechenberg. Hope the old Dolphin final gets his due this year. Will be well deserved
Last year senior semi-finalists and coach/contributor semi-finalists were released same day (first Thursday in July)…could be same day of week this year or Friday (Saturday very doubtful as Hall does not usually have media press releases on weekend) or even later as Hall never provides timetable in advance for any of their announcements. Until we see the lists, the new thread will wait as it will include those names. Each list is 25+ties, impossible to predict ties.. 2023 had 25 senior semi-finalists plus 29 coaches/contributors (that did include ties)
Lets hope tomorrow Paul. Are you going to the induction ceremonies for the members including Howley and Ware?
I know fans of this site are anticipating the new thread for the Class Of 2024, but I just wanted to say Thanks for everyone who wrote, commented and endorsed for Chuck Howley to final make this Hall Of Fame induction in the next coming weeks. Lets hope his health and well-being will manage to complete the ceremonies where he can soak up the moment with his happy family …
Hopefully, it will be an entertaining and rewarding ceremony for everyone involved, including fans of the players and teams!
Yes I am attending and it’s my understanding that Howley will not be attending but represented by family members (as was case for McNally last year)
I have a confession ever since I started commenting here I can’t stop coming here to see if there are any new comments or to comment I check it everyday
Justin i am with you 100% on a possible Kuechenberg induction down the line hopefully in 2024
test test
For 4 months I haven’t been able to post on this website because of a mod-security issue. Tony tried to help. Now it’s mysteriously has gone away today. Whatever !! Y’all probably needed a break from me. LOL I know I had a lot to say. Haha I was just about to ask Tony to post something for me! :)
Interesting about Kooch. I remember the last time he came up. He was blount about his disappointment as was his nature. He was a great leader on his Team. He was so close to making it and it really didn’t make sense to not. Now we see a little better. There must have been a lot of support for him to get that far with a 1/6 profile. I’ve said it before he was apart of the most wins in history until Tom Brady. Also a high profile player for an O-Lineman always talked about for his toughness. I don’t think his play ever dropped off throughout his long career. I think he would be a great addition to the HOF to represent the 70’s
I just reached out to Clark Judge …
The Semifinalist list will be announced next week, he didnt say the date. He said there will only be 25 players on it. He didnt mention if the contributors will be announced as well but I am assuming they will be …
Justin
I am too with you on a possible Bob Kuechenberg election hopefully next year he’s been a finalists eight times he deserves to be elected even it means posthumously
Brian : my wish and i imagine yours is that there are more super seniors on this list then there were last year
Lets hope Robert … At least one. Hoping for 4-5 new names but we will see. Lewis should be one, the question is who else?
I could easily replace … Clayton, Morgan, B Johnson, Matthews Jr, Marshall
ok what do you think of these names Marshall replaced by Jim Ray Smith Clayton by Howton Morgan- Shofner B Johnson- Lewellen Matthews Jr- Schafrath
No problem on those names but as you know, doubtful … prolly modern players again. The real question besides Lewis, is who else could shake up the finalist list?
The way it stands now, if the voters maintain their queue, is both QBs Isbell and Anderson could be elected in 2025 …
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2023/07/06/rb-corey-dillon-hall-of-fame-caliber/
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2023/07/07/whos-heading-to-canton/
Couple of new HOF posts while we’re waiting for the coming announcements…
Announced https://www.profootballhof.com/news/2023/60-semifinalists-named-for-class-of-2024-in-senior,-coach-contributor-categories/
The coaches/ contributors who are semifinalists are:
-K.S. “Bud” Adams Jr.
-Roone Arledge
-C.O. Brocato
-Tom Coughlin
-Alex Gibbs
-Ralph Hay
-Mike Holmgren
-Frank “Bucko” Kilroy
-Eddie Kotal
-Robert Kraft
-Elmer Layden
-Jerry Markbreit
-Virginia McCaskey
-Rich McKay
-John McVay
-Art Modell
-Buddy Parker
-Carl Peterson
-Dan Reeves
-Art Rooney Jr.
-Marty Schottenheimer
-Jerry Seeman
-George Seifert
-Mike Shanahan
-Clark Shaughnessy
-Seymour Siwoff
-Jim Tunney
-Lloyd Wells
-John Wooten
The players who are semifinalists are:
-Ken Anderson
-Ottis Anderson
-Carl Banks
-Maxie Baughan
-Larry Brown
-Mark Clayton
-Charlie Conerly
-Roger Craig
-Henry Ellard
-Randy Gradishar
-Lester Hayes
-Chris Hinton
-Cecil Isbell
-Joe Jacoby
-Billy “White Shoes” Johnson
-Mike Kenn
-Bob Kuechenberg
-George Kunz
-Albert Lewis
-Jim Marshall
-Clay Matthews Jr.
-Steve McMichael
-Eddie Meador
-Stanley Morgan
-Tommy Nobis
-Art Powell
-Sterling Sharpe
-Steve Tasker
-Otis Taylor
-Everson Walls
-Al Wistert
“Each list will be reduced to 12 semifinalists, with the results of those votes announced on July 27. The coach/contributor committee will then choose one finalist on Aug. 15, with the seniors committee meeting a week later to choose three. (From Clark Judge)”
(look for new topic tread on class of 2024 election to post soon) Paul
Ten new additions … Dilweg didnt make it.
Conerly has a chance to be heard, would take him over Isbell …
Over 30 semifinalists which makes sense.
We might as well kiss the super-seniors goodbye, though Isbell has a chance.
Virginia McCaskey over Jack Vainisi, are you kidding me? Alex Gibbs joins Shaughnessy as assistant coaches …
Art Powell joins Otis Taylor for the AFL.
Wistert was added as super senior. Also, happy to see Larry Brown finally getting a chance.
Wistert as well … Too many receivers on this list, though I am happy for Tasker, Ellard and Powell getting a chance …
Happy for Alex Gibbs but Bill Arnsparger is an even better assistant. Still, Knox and Shaw should have joined the list.
When you only have 12 voters each picking their own 25 is how you end up with several ties for 25th slot which could be candidates with perhaps only 1 vote. Leads to some odd selections but voters will have majority votes for 12 finalists that won’t include the odd ones
McCaskey And Gibbs are perfect examples of a voter selecting a candidate who will have no other support and only got on list of 25 because one vote gave them tie for 25th slot
Comparing to last time based on years seems despite Dilweg’s miss they are more slightly more favorable to super seniors (2 extra (Wistert , and Conerly ) to 1 loss) and semi super seniors (Powell)
The real story here is they are really respecting the queue outside of Dilweg
Cecil Isbell 1938-1942 advanced to finalist last time
Al Wistert 1943-1951 NEW
Charlie Conerly 1948-1961 NEW
Art Powell 1959-1968 NEW
Eddie Meador 1959-1970 advanced to finalist last time
Maxie Baughan 1960-1974 advanced to finalist last time
Otis Taylor 1965-1975 made it last time
Tommy Nobis 1966-1976 advanced to finalist last time
Larry Brown 1969-1976 NEW
Jim Marshall 1960-1979 made it last time
George Kunz 1969-1980 made it last time
Randy Gradishar 1974-1983 advanced to finalist last time (final 3)
Bob Kuechenberg 1970-1983/4 (injured in 84) advanced to finalist last time (final 3)
Ken Anderson 1971-1986 advanced to finalist last time
Lester Hayes 1977-1986 made it last time
Billy “White Shoes” Johnson 1974-1988 made it last time
Stanley Morgan 1977-1990 made it last time
Ottis Anderson 1979-1992 NEW
Roger Craig 1983-1993 made it last time
Mark Clayton 1983-1993 made it last time
Joe Jacoby 1981-1993 made it last time
Everson Walls 1981-1993 advanced to finalist last time
Sterling Sharpe 1988-1994 advanced to finalist last time (final 3)
Mike Kenn 1978-1994 made it last time
Steve McMichael 1980-1994 NEW
Chris Hinton 1983-1995 made it last time
Carl Banks 1984-1995 NEW
Clay Matthews JR. 1978-1996 made it last time
Steve Tasker 1985-1997 NEW
Henry Ellard 1983-1998 FIRST TIME ELIGIBLE
Albert Lewis 1983-1998 FIRST TIME ELIGIBLE
only player not to make it last time
LaVern Dilweg 1926-1934 missed it
Good call YT because Conerly was before 1950 … Me’ thinks the finalist list will be shaken up … I will predict my final 12 on the new post …
Bears fan here, just the Hall of Fame down if McCaskey was somehow selected.
The seniors will select Covert, they’ll nominate Mongo, but they won’t give Hilgenberg or Fortunato consideration.
I hope this is the last year I can call for Gradishar/Baughan/Meador, expect to be disappointed.
Not getting involved now if a 50s player (Connery did anyone see him play?) should be seen as a super senior. Even if not wistert is as swap for dilwig.
There is a chance that the less seniors will mean more elected due to there being less fractured voting if those who want super seniors can coalesce around 1 candidate. Isbell clearly is looking like a possibility (ps despite his short career he retired in the top 3 in passing yards, completions and touchdowns) he is the only super senior to have advanced assuming they respect the queue he has a 50% chance of finishing just out this year setting him up for next year. I wonder if those who are willing to vote for super seniors give themselves a quota of how many they will allow themselves to vote for in order to not penalize others without the baggage and will add someone else if isbell is elected. With one who was a semi finalist getting to the front of the super senior queue.
The big question is are all 9 of last year’s finalists going to once again be a finalist. If so kooch, sharpe and Gradishar increase their chance to be elected as it shows the queue is super important.
The next big question would be who gets the 3 new spots. Are they going to show a recent bias. Remember every year passed without being elected should mean that those who retired x number of years earlier (are going to be let’s say new super seniors who might have retired before voters were born)
I’m afraid this committee will become the place where it the 20th to 25th year on the ballot players are immediately elected once their modern era expires. Assuming that they respect the queue, I hope that no more than 1 new player makes the final ballot from those who retired after 94. If so I’m pretty confident that the seniors committee will not just be for semi modern players.
My prediction for the 12 is the 9 holdouts from last time plus Craig, jacoby and Marshall
Believe it or not Corey we agree on the three defensive players that should be selected Baughan Gradishar Meador what do you think of these replacements. Fortunato instead of Matthews Hilgenberg instead of McMichael. Boyd instead of Clayton
Who would you all say is the biggest snub from the players semifinalist list? Mine would be L.C. Greenwood.
My biggest snub is Lewellen, but like YT said, he would take votes from Isbell and Sharpe. Dilweg got taken off this years vote but might get in next year if one of those guys gets elected, which will probably be Sharpe …
I like Greenwood, but feel too many Steeler defenders voted in could keep him out. Defensive linemen still get no love with Brito or Harvey Martin still being snubbed. Martin has the most sacks in postseason history.
I still predict Albert Lewis will make the Finalist list …
To Answer your question Roger my Biggest snub would have to be either jay hilgenberg or a guy that brian mentioned harvey martin and if we are going older super senior wise id go Ox Emerson
new board topic is now posted for class of 2024 debates
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2023/07/13/2024-pro-football-hall-of-fame-elections-senior-coach-contributor-semifinalists/
Thanks for explaining Paul. It seems to me Larry Brown is a bit of a throw in don’t get me wrong I think he was great for a short career player and I’d be happy if he made the HOF but it seems really doubtful. If you put him in the HOF don’t you have to strongly consider Lawrence McCutcheon and Chuck Foreman. Mercury Morris, Lydell Mitchell and Greg Pruitt might have something to say. lol not that they have great cases but for their talent.
I can see Tommy Nobis getting in fairly soon. I don’t understand where Isiah Robertson 2/6, Bill Bergey 2/5 , Lemar Parrish 1/8 , Louis Wright 2/5 , Jake Scott 2/5 and Dick Anderson 2/3 are?? Revealing this list is new for Seniors isn’t it?
I think when they let in players like Dick LeBeau 0/3 Floyd Little 1/5 with only one 1,000 yd rushing season and less than 4.0 a carry and now Ken Riley 1/0 it makes a whole lot of players say what the bleep. It getting real hard as purist fan who wants the HOF to be for true greatness to be objective when I see a Jimbo Convert going in. Aren’t we considering the career anymore? And sometimes it’s the career and not the greatness. For me the lines are getting blurred. I was on the fence on Tony Boselli and I thought rightly so. Now I can’t even be on the fence for Joe Jacoby. i know Covert was elected by a special panel but it’s having an effect IMO. I thought the HOF committee was getting on back on track. Now I don’t know. That’s why I can say Jake Scott absolutely deserves in the HOF. one year short of ten who cares. lol
Brad, Rasputin, BoKnows34, Bachslunch
Who do you guys like or predict for the three senior nominees? Do any of you agree or disagree with Parker?