On Zoneblitz, we obviously spend a lot of time thinking & discussing who should be elected to the Hall of Fame–but something I hadn’t really considered much was whether or not anyone should have their bust removed from Canton altogether. I’m not even sure if there is a way to go about doing that (given a couple people who haven’t been), although obviously there are some that are probably not really welcomed back each year for the ceremony, and likely not promoted in exhibits through the Hall.
What got me thinking about this was an article–or rather a listicle–that came up in my Facebook feed last week (although it was written back in January of 2022). It’s one of those articles designed to make you scroll for half a mile, see about 8-dozen ads, and then share it on your own socials–but I’m not going to make you go read the article (although you’re welcome to, if you’d like), unless you really want to see their logic.
While some of them <cough>OJ<cough> aren’t a big surprise, curious what you’ll think of the rest of the list. From SportScroll.com, here’s 30 NFL players that should be removed from the Pro Football Hall of Fame:
(Okay, going to try to get a few extra ad views out of you… <GRIN>)
30) Frank Gatski
29) Richard Dent
28) Terrell Owens
27) Roger Wehrli
26) Brett Favre
25) Lynn Swann
24) Paul Hornung
23) Ray Nitschke
22) Jan Stenerud
21) Art Monk
20) Dan Hampton
19) LeRoy Kelly
18) Dan Dierdorf
17) Charlies Sanders
16) Ken Stabler
15) Michael Irvin
14) Andre Tippett
13) Curtis Martin
12) Dick LaBeau
11) Cris Carter
10) Russ Grimm
9) John Riggins
8) Lawrence Taylor
7) Joe Namath
6) Bob Hayes
5) Jerome Bettis
4) OJ Simpson
3) Marcus Allen
2) Bob Griese
1) Troy Aikman
What do you think? Let us know in the comments!
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OMG Tony, opening up a can of worms. LOL I guess why not some of us go there a lot anyway. Actually I would rather take the Deion Sanders approach and say who is Tier one, two and three. Three being a marginal HOFer. We aren’t kicking anyone out! LOL!
If this was at all about on field lack of worthiness off the top of my head it is missing covert, stallworth and pearson (also brian young if the list is made today)
Confused why oj isn’t number 1 especially when the problem with Marcus Allen seems to be his oj connection
to the author of that article-its a stupid premise and exercise and even if was valid question or task, the inclusion of many names on their list iss ridiculous – which likely why the idea is so idiotic to begin with. Troy Aikman-considered one of the best playoff QBs in NFL history and key part of team that won 3 SBs should not be in PFHOF??? TO???? OJ???? (still considered among top 10 RBs of all time), LT-most place top 3 defensive player of all time, top 10 at any position?? Seems like author is injecting a lot of person opinions – and off the field issues, including some that occurred years after they played, even years after they were elected into PFHOF into the discussion, essentially invoking a character clause (which does not even exist for current elections) post hoc years later??
And Deion’s stupid proposal is no better-as it only raises the same subjective decisions about ranking PFHOFers which would create just as much debate about how they rank which we already have about who is deserving.
Based on their entire career resume, do I think there are some PFHOFers who likely are less deserving of the honor? Sure there is..but its a much smaller number than I suspect many think, and certainly is not that many or include most of those names.
Paul there already is an unofficial character clause for the hall Jim Tyrer, and Darren Sharper
Does oj get in the hall if his first year of eligibility was in 96
These guys are voted in and thats all there is to it. Floyd Little will never be confused with Jim Brown and the best of the best should be first ballot elected, but many didnt have that chance. Some on this list probably shouldnt have been voted in but with a subjective process, they made it and are celebrated.
Haha … I may be the only one who feels Lynn Swann should have been elected. Yes, his stats arent the most eye popping and injuries shortened his career but I have looked at his games on Pro Football-Reference and he was as clutch as any receiver, ever … not just postseason games and SBs, he was great in big games that won the division, or got the team into the postseason as well. He couldnt take advantage of the 77-78 rules changes like teammate, Stallworth but he was a deserving HOF player to me …
I dont support swan but I get Swann’s case. Stallworth makes absolutely no sense. His only argument seems to be he had a better career than swann.
I can make a case (I strongly dont buy) why Swann belongs but a Stanley morgan or harold jackson dont, by way overplaying clutch etc. But stallworth also?
I seems stallworth case is only a counter to swanns by those who opposed swann.
Trade Swann for harold jackson and stallworth for harold Carmichael and Jackson is in the hall decades ago Carmichael makes it on the first few ballots and Swann and stallworth are barely remembered today at all
Stallworth had for a hall of fame receiver terrible career numbers (even for his time at retirement was 15th in reception with 3 non hofer ahead of him, 13th in receiving yards with 3 non hofers ahead of him, and 22nd in receiving touchdowns) and never led the league in anything.
Swann got in the hall primarily based on one game, stallworth doesn’t even have that.
Wonder how many 70s Steelers would be in the hall if they were all on the lions (not together obviously)
I agree it’s a silly concept, and it’s never happening–I mean, if they haven’t removed OJ, they’re not removing anyone.
I was actually surprised Jim Brown wasn’t on the list for his personal transgressions over the years…the original author certainly seemed to include a few others for issues that were purely off field. Also seemed to have a little anti-Packer bias…
Writer wasn’t referring to blocking candidates from being elected but a post hoc decision to remove based on actions or alleged actions (Farve) years after they played and years after elected-that’s different them current dilemma voters have with Tyler and Sharper
And it’s not going to happen but for the purpose of this exercise, several of the names he lists are even worse than the actual proposal – in fact they actually show the fallacy of his whole premise
Stallworth retired as one of best WRs in NFL playoff history and SBs including holding several key receiving records, with 100y games and TDs in SB XIII and SB XIV. Let’s stop simply only looking at partial career resumes of players, focusing on season stats only while not accounting for playoffs.
I had Troy Aikman and Bob Griese rated about the same in my top 25 QBs. They did what their Head Coach required of them and they passed the eyeball test of being special and won a lot. I would put them just in as mid level HOFers.
Someone is smoking crack if they think Brett Favre shouldn’t be in the HOF. LOL
I’ve got Favre, LT, TO and OJ Simpson as top level HOFers of that group.
The usual suspects are on the bottom tier, Floyd Little, Dick LeBeau, Joe Namath, Paul Hornung , Lynn Swann and Russ Grimm.
Stallworth won 4 super bowls how many other receivers in the 70s were lucky enough to play on a team that good. The best receivers of the 70s had much worse teammates.
Paul do you seriously believe that either swan or stallworth would be in the hall if they played for bad teams?
dont understand the hate towards frank gatski can some one explain why there is so much hatred
I don’t like the slippery slope or the precedence of removing a bust, per se. I think there are some people in who shouldn’t be – Namath, Swann, Nitschke, Dave Robinson, Jimbo Covert, Harold Carmichael, Ed Sprinkle, Ken Stabler.
Not to mention, there are those who’ve done some reprehensible things – LT, Favre and most of all, OJ.
We can’t kick people out of Canton, just that there are people whose selections I’d have rather gone to others.
Keep in mind, OJ was in before the accusation of the double murders. OJ’s shown us what kind of human being he is, but there’s some history we’re just better off just not celebrating history than removing it altogether.
don’t get how someone doesn’t think Harold Carmichael belongs, he had amazing career numbers, he was the best receiver in 73. He was obviously consistently reliable (at least in 127 straight games). And most importantly as opposed to every other receiver on the all 70’s team did not have a hall of fame quarterback. Not that it is relevant for the 70’s team, but take away Pearson, Swann, and Warfield from their teams and they likely still make the super bowl (at least most of those years), take away Carmichael and there is no way the Eagles make the superbowl.
career receiving stats when He retired (in a few months everyone above him is likely to be in in the hall)
receiving yards
1 Don Maynard 11834
2 Charlie Joiner 10774
3 Harold Jackson 10372
4 Lance Alworth 10266
5 Raymond Berry 9275
6 Charley Taylor 9110
7 Harold Carmichael 8985
receptions
1 Charlie Joiner 657
2 Charley Taylor 649
3 Don Maynard 633
4 Raymond Berry 631
5 Harold Carmichael 590
receiving touchdowns
1 Don Hutson 99
2 Don Maynard 88
3T Paul Warfield 85
3T Lance Alworth 85
5 Tommy McDonald 84
6 Art Powell 81
7T Charley Taylor 79
7T Harold Carmichael 79
What did Brett Favre do where he could even be considered to be thrown out?
How about the welfare fraud scandal?
“don’t get how someone doesn’t think Harold Carmichael belongs, he had amazing career numbers, he was the best receiver in 73. He was obviously consistently reliable (at least in 127 straight games). And most importantly as opposed to every other receiver on the all 70’s team did not have a hall of fame quarterback. Not that it is relevant for the 70’s team, but take away Pearson, Swann, and Warfield from their teams and they likely still make the super bowl (at least most of those years), take away Carmichael and there is no way the Eagles make the superbowl.”
Harold Carmichael was a four-time Pro Bowler and never a First-Team All-Pro.
Out of Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch, Harold Carmichael and Harold Jackson, I find Carmichael to have the weakest case of the four.
Pro Bowls
Harold Jackson: 5
Cliff Branch: 4
Harold Carmichael: 4
Drew Pearson: 3
First-Team All-Pro
Cliff Branch: 3
Drew Pearson: 3
Harold Jackson: 1
Harold Carmichael: 0
Hall of Fame Monitor, per Pro-Football Reference.
Drew Pearson: 84.14
Harold Jackson: 81.24
Cliff Branch: 76.86
Harold Carmichael: 70.89
In fact, the only receivers with a lower Hall of Fame monitor than Harold Carmichael who are actually in are John Stallworth, Bob Hayes, Bobby Mitchell and Tommy McDonald. Should Art Powell be elected, he’ll be added to this distinction.
Henry Ellard just fell into the senior pool, and only Del Shofner and Henry Ellard, among senior receivers not yet in, have a higher Hall of Fame monitor than Harold Jackson does.
Times led in something.
Receptions
Harold Jackson: 1
Harold Carmichael: 1
Cliff Branch: 0
Drew Pearson: 0
Yards
Harold Jackson: 2
Harold Carmichael: 1
Cliff Branch: 1
Drew Pearson: 1
Touchdowns
Cliff Branch: 2
Harold Jackson: 1
Drew Pearson: 0
Harold Carmichael: 0
Yards Per Game
Cliff Branch: 2
Harold Jackson: 2
Drew Pearson: 1
Harold Carmichael: 1
Harold Jackson led all receivers in the 1970s in receptions, yards and touchdowns, but I’m supposed to buy Harold Carmichael as an All-Decade member and as a Hall of Famer while Harold Jackson is neither?
Harold Carmichael is one of the weaker selections from senior pool in the last 10 years, not one of the stronger ones. The wrong receiver named Harold was elected in 2020.
Your comments are good YT, but I dont believe the Steelers or Dolphins go to SBs without Swann, Stallworth and Warfield. Those teams running games were great but with those receivers, defenses couldnt load the box. Warfield broke open games against KC and Baltimore in 71 and Cleveland and Pitts in the 72 postseason. He had a TD called back in the SB against Washington because of a motion penalty against teammate Briscoe.
Swann and Stallworth were decisive against Oakland and Houston in championship games as well. Yes, had those receivers been on worse teams, they dont collect those rings but being the players they were, would have had better statistics being a teams’ main offensive focus. Remember, Noll wanted to draft Stallworth first but the scouts, including Nunn and Haley, knew that small black schools werent scouted enough, and he would fall in their lap, which happened in the 4th round. Frank Lewis had ability as well but couldnt jump ahead of them and was traded. He helped Buffalo become a winner, later.
Carmichael had a great career but some people thought at the time that Charle Young was better but he got traded, where Jaws came in and gave Carmichael the thrower he needed since Gabriel was done …
The NFL won’t like the bright light shown of CTE but it time!
https://flatlandkc.org/video-series/art-house/art-house-extra-remembering-kc-chiefs-great-jim-tyrer/
i can think of 5 receivers id put in instead of swann : Gary Collins Del Shofner Billy Howton Harold Jackson Dilweg and in terms of the receivers that corey mentioned heres my rankings
Jackson
Branch
Pearson
Carmichael
Swann
Regardless how his family and others might feel (their forgiveness of his actions) voters face a no win when it comes to Tyrer – electing him would just draw scorn from the public and advocates against violence towards woman. The whole CTE factor (which no one knows if it was a contributor-regardless of claims by some) doesn’t come to play
And I don’t think the voters or Hall are concerned one bit about potentially bringing a spotlight to CTE that we think the NFL may not wish to see (doubt that is a concern of the league as CTE is already a major media topic)… besides we already have well documented and extensive media stories on current PFHOFers who likely suffered from CTE, such as Mike Webster
I get it, I totally get why Jim Tyrer isn’t in Canton and why that’s highly unlikely ever to change, and it’s hard to blame anybody for excluding him.
Here’s my objective position on the matter.
1. Aren’t voters supposed to only consider what happened on the field and not off the field? Isn’t it crucial to adhere to that standard? If not, should a standard be tweaked? I don’t care what the standard is, so long as it’s followed.
2. While I certainly don’t condone what Tyrer did, and I don’t see how anyone could, if Tyrer’s family forgives him, I don’t see myself in a position to be too harsh over it.
Voters are not to consider off the field issues but let’s be realistic here – facts are that Tyrer killed his wife, voters are human and aren’t simply going to ignore that truth. Regardless how his family views what happen, he’s still a murderer and understandably voters won’t consider him. Especially when there are many other deserving seniors they can elect, leaving it pretty easy to simply ignore his case
Corey
“1. Aren’t voters supposed to only consider what happened on the field and not off the field? Isn’t it crucial to adhere to that standard? If not, should a standard be tweaked? I don’t care what the standard is, so long as it’s followed. ”
I agree the standard should be tweaked, how about they put a bust of Martha Tyrer, It will honor Jim’s playing career and condemn the person. (ditto for OJ), on the website with her name they can say wife of 9 time probowl/afl all star etc. This way he is not honored but his play is.
“2. While I certainly don’t condone what Tyrer did, and I don’t see how anyone could, if Tyrer’s family forgives him, I don’t see myself in a position to be too harsh over it.”
A. Because family members can’t forgive murder, only the murder victim can do so. So if you can raise the dead and ask Martha if she forgives him, then maybe I’ll except that.
B. Furthermore these children lost both their mother and father on the same day in one of the most gruesome things I can imagine, convincing themselves that their father was insane and not really accountable for what he did, probably makes the unimaginable pain lessen even if completely not true. Blaming CTE is probably the way they can cope with it, their father didn’t murder their mother and then himself, rather much nicer to think CTE killed both their parents, the later is much easier to bare regardless of the facts. Even if proven Tyrer had CTE it doesn’t not mean it was bad enough that he is not really responsible for what he did.
Corey
Hall of fame monitor explicitly gives out points for being on good teams, too bad Harold Carmichael didn’t play with Roger Staubach, Randy White, Tony Dorsett, etc. I’m sure his Hall of fame monitor score would rise.
If Harold Carmichael played for the cowboys his entire Eagles career and Pearson played for the Eagles, THe Cowboys likely win the same numbers of Super Bowls, and the Eagles never make one.
PS when it comes to all pro, I’m sure that Pearson playing for “Americas Team” didn’t help hurt in the all pro votes
problem with that rationale is that it could also virtually be applied to every candidate and every current PFHOFer – what if they played on different team, different era, with different teammates/coaches – and then it becomes a mute point when it can be applied to them all.
As to Drew Pearson, his three 1st team all pro selections also aligned with 3rd in receptions (1st among WRs)/2nd in yards-1974; 2nd among WRs for receptions-1976,; and leading league in receiving yards (1977) — keeping in mind that in mid 1970s the league was dominated by run focused offenses and that for many years the season leaders in receptions/yards were RBs or TEs. Plus yep like many other PFHOFers their resumes are greatly helped by playoff appearances, playoff stats and wins, including conference championships/SBs as voters look at entire resumes and not just selective ones. As to Pearson, Branch and Carmichael hard to understand today why there remains a debate between the three when from 2020-2022 they were all elected….
The problem with not doing over counting playoffs makes it the Steelers have way more hall of famers than other teams who were not that much worse.
I’m not saying Harold Carmichael is better by imagining him on the cowboys or steelers, I’m saying he has much better career numbers than his contemporaries and season numbers equal to Pearson and better than Swann and Stallworth, the only thing they have over him are Staubach, Bradshaw and company leading them to playoff after playoff.
the topic is players to remove from the hall and Stallworth, Swann, and Pearson being mistakes seems relevant here. Take away playoff success no way any of those 3 make the hall, take away playoff success of Carmichael and he possibly still makes the hall. Take away Carmichael from the Eagles and no way do they make the Superbowl, Take away Stallworth I’m sure that Steelers still win 3 if not all 4. If Playoff success is so important to a hall of fame case then it should be where their play is an absolute necessity for their teams success. I truly wonder if all those supporting these sub par HOF receivers are from the Eli Manning supporters or opponents, Manning was after all more critical to 2 super bowl wins that anyone of these receivers were.